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From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:05:12 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 03:08:10 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: >Arun Gupta wrote: > >> I disagree -- I think the use of the GNU C/C++ compilers is far more >> widespread than Linux itself; and that we were using it much before >> Linux became widespread. > >Is "we" a widespread number of people? Roughly 9 million? Or less? Give >me a rough estimate. Atari ST users, Amiga users, sega saturn developers (still some in Japan oddly enough) & the like... GNU software was quite useful to some people before linux came about... -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: MWSF Today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F51rA8.5Kr@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: mjpeck@nstar.net Organization: needs one References: <3690883F.94D19071@nstar.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:58:54 GMT In <3690883F.94D19071@nstar.net> "Michael J. Peck" wrote: > What happens if Apple doesn't announce Mac OS X Server today? I get more time to fix bugs! > Would it be unthinkable, or just a disappointment? Nothing in the Apple world is unthinkable any more. Hell, they could kill it outright. It would be a disappointment. Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 4 Jan 1999 18:11:34 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <76r08m$laf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: : Arun Gupta wrote: : > I disagree -- I think the use of the GNU C/C++ compilers is far more : > widespread than Linux itself; and that we were using it much before : > Linux became widespread. : Is "we" a widespread number of people? Roughly 9 million? Or less? Give : me a rough estimate. Before we ask for numbers, maybe we should back up and ask why they are important. Why should Linux users of GNU C/C++ be counted differently than other users? More generally, why should Linux users be counted differently than other users of open source? For me, the thought process was something like: - I think I like this Open Source and GNU stuff - Linux certainly has a critical mass going - I think I'll use Linux to run Open Source and GNU stuff I expect a lot of people followed a similar path. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of people who used to do GNU C/C++ on other platforms have followed that path as well. What's the big deal? John
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:16:20 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76r0hi$8rr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <76oph0$4ja$5@nnrp02.primenet.com> In article <76oph0$4ja$5@nnrp02.primenet.com>, Stephen Edwards <ja207030@primenet.com> wrote: > Bob Canup <rcanup@hal-pc.org> wrote: > : r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote: > > : > When much of your software is stolen, you have to be careful not to show it to > : > the wrong people. When the success of your product depends on gag-order > : > non-disclosure agreements that prohibit public comparisons and negative > : > publicity, it's much harder to get a true fix on what the real problems are, > : > how to resolve them, and how to make sure that they never happen again. > : > > My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html > : > > > : > -- > : > Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director > : > http://www.open4success.com > : A rhetorical point here: People who won't show you > : their source code generally > : have something to hide. > > More like, they have something to _protect_. It's called "capitalism". Let's see. Given the context of this conversation, what you are saying is that if a big corporation steals intellectual property from an individual or a smaller corporation, that they have the right to protect that intellectual property FROM it's creators? I'm not sure that's what the framers of copyright and patent law had in mind. In fact, trade secrecy and copyright/patent registration are the antithesis. Prior to 1976, all copyrighted works had to be registered with the Library of Congress. A patent application requires public disclosure of the process or machine being patented. Microsoft seeks the protection of copyright and patent law while at the same time attempting to claim that any form of "reverse engineering" constitutes a violation of trade secrecy. Perhaps one of the most fascinating studies in open-source capitalism is the Internet itself. The entire technology for the Internet is available through Open Source software. In fact, Linux is used my many companies as the entire infrastructure for many internet sites. Have you noticed that Internet stocks are doing very well? Even though the intellectual property rights are "Public License" (NCSA, BSDL, GPL...) people and corporations still prefer to pay for the support, service, and convenience of a corporation such as AOL, Infoseek, or Lycos than to have to try and create their own web crawlers and search engines. They'd rather have their sites hosted by 9NetAvenue, Digital Express, or ICON than have them managed internally. Linux users can download the entire system over the Internet for free, but many prefer to spend the $50 for a CD-ROM and 30 day telephone support. The key factor in the success of Microsoft isn't it's superior technology, but rather it's superior customer support. You can dial a 1-900 number, pay $35 and usually you can get a solution to your problem, even if the problem was pirated software or the solution is to reboot your machine. However, Microsoft uses the feedback it gets from it's customer service lines to improve the help, context sensitive help, wizards, and other forms of documentation. Linux has only been getting this kind of feedback (from desktop users) for the last 6 months, but already the support level and ease-of-learning has improved radically. Enough to capture 10% of the market from Microsoft. > [] Footnote server is currently down... > -- > .-----. > |[_] :| Stephen S. Edwards II | http://www.primenet.com/~rakmount > | = :| Support the shareware authors... register your software! > | | Please send all flames, trolls, and complaints to /dev/toilet. > |_..._| LUSER: I have a problem. ADMIN: Keep talking... I'm reloading. > > -- Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director http://www.open4success.com -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36908a34.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 4 Jan 1999 09:30:28 GMT suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at (Arun Gupta) wrote: > "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: > >> Still, I think it's probably true that more of the population that uses >> Open Source software (and knows it) gained access to it through Linux, >> than through some other means. > >I disagree -- I think the use of the GNU C/C++ compilers is far more >widespread than Linux itself; and that we were using it much before >Linux became widespread. This is true - the educational and scientific world was using gcc/gdb and associated tools on many versions of unix long before the Linux kernel became popular. In fact it's quite common for the main part of a commercial unix distribution to be discarded in favor fo the GNU tools. However, the growth of Linux distributions IS now very significant, and I think that Michaels main point (which you omitted) is still valid - >That, in itself, makes Linux an important focus for those creating and distributing >Open Source software.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:32:37 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76r50l$csv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> In article <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: > Charles Swiger wrote: >> The notion of Open Source is bigger than Linux, just as it was bigger than >> GNU and the FSF. > > Chuck, I think I agree with your sentiments on the licensing problems, > but John isn't speaking of GNU. I didn't say he was; I deliberately did not direct my comments towards either John or you, for that matter. > His issue is Linux and in this case I think it's entirely valid to pin the > visibility of Open Source software on the rise of Linux. I disagree. Linux is one factor that has been massively publicized-- excessively so, and often without the pro-Linux crowd giving due credit to earlier work. More to the point, let's go to www.opensource.org, and see what they (probably Eric Raymond) had to say as the very first thing you see: "Open-source software is an idea whose time has finally come. For twenty years it has been building momentum in the technical cultures that built the Internet and the World Wide Web. Now it's breaking out into the commercial world, and that's changing all the rules. Are you ready?" ...and from their history document: " History of the Open Source effort The prehistory of the Open Source campaign includes the entire history of Unix, Internet free software, and the hacker culture. The `open source' label itself came out of a strategy session held on February 3rd 1998 in Palo Alto, California. The people present included Todd Anderson, Chris Peterson (of the Foresight Institute), John `maddog' Hall and Larry Augustin (both of Linux International), Sam Ockman (of the Silicon Valley Linux User's Group), and Eric Raymond. We were reacting to the Netscape's announcement that it planned to give away the source of its browser. One of us (Raymond) had been invited out by Netscape to help them plan the release and followon actions. We realized that the Netscape announcement had created a precious window of time within which we might finally be able to get the corporate world to listen to what we have to teach about the superiority of an open development process." Linux got involved _later_, as is mentioned several paragraphs later. > Not entirely, no, and certainly nobody claims that > Linux is responsible for the *creation* of most Open Source software. > Still, I think it's probably true that more of the population that uses > Open Source software (and knows it) gained access to it through Linux, > than through some other means. The compilation environment that comes with Linux is based off the GNU compiler tools; gcc is not only found on every Linux distribution CD, but has been ported and used on literally hundreds of CPU-vendor-OS tuples for quite a few years before Linux existed. Again, I regard such a claim as not giving due credit to the GNU project for gcc, gdb, emacs, the GNU C library, and the rest of the GNU tools. Obviously, I agree with those people who regard Linux as Linux/GNU. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "One thing that looks definite is....Mac OS X Server in January..." Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:37:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76r595$d1d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <3670B38C.812ACA60@nstar.net> <joe.ragosta-1112980646160001@elk62.dol.net> <3671484B.5166335E@nstar.net> <199812120228251239508@ts4-19.aug.com> <3672F161.9A5BFCCE@nstar.net> <19981213123438840862@ts2-18.aug.com> <7546k2$rhg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3675C7C4.861C5575@nstar.net> <F40J4r.4FE@T-FCN.Net> <7563lg$89l$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <F40s2z.9EC@T-FCN.Net> <slrn77deao.jp4.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <3676BE9A.D76FE8DE@ericsson.com> <757g7t$5s2@news1.panix.com> <634205DD6371BD18.9A0169FD4DB844C9.4CC464BA3FE9EAD7@library-proxy.airnews.net> <76f9pb$737$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76lp4k$4n@news1.panix.com> In article <76lp4k$4n@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 07:40:27 GMT, > r.e.ballard@usa.net <r.e.ballard@usa.net> wrote: > > Have you noticed > >ISP stocks are doing really well right now (guess where the strongest > >concentration of UNIX and Linux talent is working right now :-). > Aren't Yahoo and Amazon both running on FreeBSD? Yes. For those who don't know, FreeBSD is another "Free UNIX" similar to Linux. FreeBSD is actually a potential Linux contender. It runs the same systems code, libraries, utilities, and applications as Linux and is a bit more reliable - especially in SMP systems. FreeBSD systems are also more vulnerable to "Embrace and Extend" tactics such as the way Microsoft "Embraced" Mozaic (like an anaconda embraces a gazelle) and Extended it into IE 4.0 (like the anaconda extends the gazelle as it swallows and digests). Or like Microsoft Embraced and Extended the spreadsheet (like the hangman's noose embraces and extends one's neck). > I wouldn't use that as > evidence that using BSD will help your share price any more than I would use > the ISP/Linux example. Internet stocks are surging. It has more to do with > internet hype than Linux or FreeBSD. The key is that FreeBSD and Linux sites are thriving unencumbered by the royalties, restrictions, "per user fees", and other incremental costs that Microsoft imposes on it's customers. Furthermore, the Internet has traditionally grown in "waves" that grow at 20%/month, doubling every 4 months. This Christmas, there was a surprising amount of goods purchased via the Internet. > (And people thought I was nuts when I bought Yahoo at $95 a share) And my boss thought I was nuts to reccomend that our company (Dow Jones) do what Yahoo, NetCenter, and Infoseek are now doing. He was much more interested in a private network powered by Microsoft Exchange that would allow people to SPAM MS-Word and Powerpoint documents into corporate e-mail systems. He wanted to know why I wasted my time on 'two bit operations' like Infoseek, Yahoo, Lycos, and WAIS. I said at the time "Maybe ONE of these will turn into the next $20 billion company". WAIS was purchased by AOL but not before selling their search engine rights to Verity. FreeWAIS is a text search engine that is the granddaddy of the Web Search Engine. In fact, the original term "world wide web" was coined by Brewster Kahle to describe the way a WAIS search engine could search other WAIS search engines that seached other WAIS search engines in what amounted to a huge "web" of concurrent searches. Brewster felt that the HTML browser was a better interface than the WAIS clients that were originally text-only. Eventually, the "Web" became associated with the browser rather than the server network. The servers returned HTML documents that held references that could be used to link to graphical pages. Eventually the servers became disassociated with the search engines. Ironically, of the first 7000 publishers I coached in 1994-1996, only about 5 have turned out badly, and that was because they tried to monopolize the internet. > <<clip>> -- Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director http://www.open4success.com -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Predictions for MacWorld Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 4 Jan 1999 19:44:41 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <76r5n9$s2r$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <76lonu$44u$1@your.mother.com> <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 1999 19:44:41 GMT Apple will announce that it has in fact purchased Palm Computing from 3Com. Two months later, Palm will have taken Apple over from the inside and booted Steve Jobs out; Palm's CEO will become the new Interim Apple CEO. Sean
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 14:16:48 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jedi wrote: > Atari ST users, Amiga users, sega saturn developers (still some > in Japan oddly enough) & the like... > > GNU software was quite useful to some people before linux came > about... Right. My point, which both you and Arun have missed, had nothing to do with games about "I was there first". I don't care whether your use of GNU tools predates Joe Schmoe's; it has nothing to do with what I was saying. Widespread adoption of GNU tools has taken off with the advent of stable Linux. The Open Source userbase has grown by at least an order of magnitude since Linux's introduction, and consequently there is a tremendous association between "Open Source" and "Linux". This should not be surprising to anyone. So when someone says > The notion of Open Source is bigger than Linux, just as it was bigger than GNU > and the FSF. with regard to "Linux hype" and "Open Source hype", I think it's worth noting that Open Source may be bigger than Linux, but the Linux part of it grows faster by far than anything else you might care to name. And I don't give a rat's ass what happened three, or five, or ten years ago in some nostalgic dreamworld fantasy involving Amigas, Ataris, Altairs, Eniacs, pigs, sheep, cows, or whatever. It doesn't have a bearing on the conversation. MJP
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:52:10 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76r9lq$h6n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368545B6.63E9976C@nstar.net> <ch3-2712981049520001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766lp1$bns$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <76e0kc$8cr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76efrj$8jf@news1.panix.com> <76gqgn$cqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76lp6k$64@news1.panix.com> In article <76lp6k$64@news1.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 21:32:08 GMT, > r.e.ballard@usa.net <r.e.ballard@usa.net> wrote: > >> Mostly. OSX doesn't include X, it uses a proprietary > >> windowing system based on > >> the postscript imaging model. > > > >This sounds horribly much like NeWS, Adobe's incredible vision for a > >Networked Windowing system based on Postscript. Sun adopted it in 1991 for > > It might be. I hope not. NeWS ate machine cycles and made fast machines look very slow. A 486 Linux machine appeared to run faster than a Sparc 20 (because NeWS was gobbling up the machine). > >> You would have to add a 3rd party X server to run X Apps. > >This could be "kiss of death" for OSX. > > If Apple was planning to sell it as a "Unix" product. So far it looks like > Apple isn't going to be selling it that way. Apple will have two competitors. Microsoft, which will do everything it can to break the blue box, and Linux which will do everything it can to encourage cross-platform compatibility. > <<clip>> > > >> > At source code level? > >> For the most part, yes. You may have to edit Makefile or tweak headers. > >That's a good step in the right direction. It would be nice if gcc could > >compile source unmodified. > > It might. If the App has a *BSD* target you might be able to just click and > go to intall it. I guess the big question here is which toolkits and APIs are supported. If TK, GTK, and GNOME are supported Mac OS/X could be the "Best of both worlds". If a "freebie" X11 system were included, Mac would offer the best of both UNIX/Linux AND Mac. In fact, FreeBSD compatibility might be just the thing to give FreeBSD the boost required to get onto massive desktops and servers. Apple got burned when they tried to keep the Mac Hardware closed and proprietary. When they finally adopted some common standards, it helped open up the market. > >> OSX uses a binary format called MachO. I don't know how hard it would be > >> to get it to run Linux binaries. It would be a lot easier if you have the > >> source to just compile it. > >Do any of the Mk-linux people know if this is compatible? > > At one point, someone suggested that a user loadable extension to run 3rd > party binaries might be possible on Mach, after all that is what the Blue > Box is and OSX uses that to run Mac Apps on Mach. In theory, the Mach microkernel can concurrently support multiple operating systems. It does require interoperability and the use of messages or message queues to drivers rather than direct interaction with hardware (Mach supports this model - examples include VMS/UNIX. Unfortunately, most coresident systems have broken down in contention for resources that must be arbitrated by a neutral 3rd party. > >> It would have to be via 3rd party X server. > >I think Apple would be very wise to provide their own X server, or to > >sponsor/foster the developments of an Xfree implementation for OSX. > > There is at least on 3rd party X server out there right now. This would be good unless it's one of those $400/copy X servers. Microsoft has deliberately discouraged the use of X11 to prevent it's workstations from being openly used as front-ends for Linux and UNIX (or vice-versa). Right now, OpenSource has the mind-share, and both Linux and FreeBSD are riding the wave. Apple will either catch the wave, or get pulled into the undertow. -- Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director http://www.open4success.com -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: michal@gortel.phys.ualberta.ca (Michal Jaegermann) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 4 Jan 1999 20:54:57 GMT Organization: Disorganized Bits Message-ID: <76r9r1$g8q$1@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> References: <76lp6n$64@news1.panix.com> <915370129snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: : I would like to know how the 10 million users figure is reached. I know a few : people who bought Linux CDs to try it because it is so cheap, then deleted it : and forgot about it after a week or two. Are they being counted? Not likely as these numbers are estimates and NOT the number of CDs sold. Myself I am "responsible" for many, actively working, Linux installations without any CDs beeing bought. OTOH I am likely counted for at least three Windoze sites which are really not in use at all unless you count my son playing an occasional game as "use". If you can tell me where I can buy a laptop without paying M$ tax then I am all ears. --mj
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:54:39 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76rgrf$nk9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <76r08m$laf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> In article <76r08m$laf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: > Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: > Before we ask for numbers, maybe we should back up and ask why they are > important. Why should Linux users of GNU C/C++ be counted differently > than other users? > > More generally, why should Linux users be counted differently than other > users of open source? > > For me, the thought process was something like: > > - I think I like this Open Source and GNU stuff > - Linux certainly has a critical mass going > - I think I'll use Linux to run Open Source and GNU stuff Apologies. Yes, that's the point and this thread is distracted from it. I didn't mean to, originally. Honest. I posted to Chuck's thread, and wound up with Arun beating his chest about having used GCC before most people. I don't know why the conversation went that way. > I expect a lot of people followed a similar path. I wouldn't be surprised > if a number of people who used to do GNU C/C++ on other platforms have > followed that path as well. > > What's the big deal? None whatsoever. The point is that it happened that way for a lot of people; apparently that's not easy for everyone to acknowledge. It seems like anyone who came to Open Source software anyhow *besides* through Linux feels they are being cheated out of the respect they feel they deserve for being so pioneering. I guess I couldn't really care less, so it sorta wears on me to see all the me-too postings. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spam@macromedia.com (mroeder) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:10:05 -0800 Organization: macromedia Message-ID: <spam-0401991510050001@192.168.21.134> References: <76lp6n$64@news1.panix.com> <915370129snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76r9r1$g8q$1@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 1999 23:08:45 GMT In article <76r9r1$g8q$1@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, michal@gortel.phys.ualberta.ca wrote: > jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > > : I would like to know how the 10 million users figure is reached. I know a few > : people who bought Linux CDs to try it because it is so cheap, then deleted it > : and forgot about it after a week or two. Are they being counted? > > Not likely as these numbers are estimates and NOT the number of CDs sold. > Myself I am "responsible" for many, actively working, Linux installations > without any CDs beeing bought. OTOH I am likely counted for at least > three Windoze sites which are really not in use at all unless you count > my son playing an occasional game as "use". If you can tell me where > I can buy a laptop without paying M$ tax then I am all ears. CompUSA, in the Apple section. Ask to look at their PowerBooks. }: )
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:21:16 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76rida$otk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> In article <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: > Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: >: In article <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com>, >: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >:> Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote: >:>: I think that "Linux hype" will evolve into "Open Source hype" by Mid '99 >:> >:> Jeez Louise. Linux hype has been Open Source hype for the last year. >:> The only people who can't see it are pedants with a Linux axe to grind. > >: The notion of Open Source is bigger than Linux, just as it was bigger than >: GNU and the FSF. [..] > > I agree with everything you said Chuck. That's good. :-) However, why are you disagreeing with Sal so vigorously? > My "pedant" shot is directed at those who have a "Linux user" bogeyman > held so tightly in their minds that they are unwilling to let the real > world intrude on it. Who are you talking about? Sal? At the risk of being blunt, the way you and MJP have responded to "YellowBox for Linux" threads has contained so much pro-Linux bias that it's tough to find common ground. But if you want to talk about your opinions about how cool Linux is, hey, that's fine. Where I start objecting is when you start claiming that other people who don't share your biases are not talking about the "real world", or where you start ignoring the basic facts of the history of "open source". For a specific example, consider the way Michael generalized that the whole crowd from NeXT advocacy was anti-Linux. Fact is, most of the NeXT people I know are pro-Linux, and many are strongly so. It's pretty sad when you guys start claiming that we have problems grasping reality just because we aren't as steeped in pro-Linux zealotry. Or when he objected to people pointing out that Apple has been working with the open source community while writing MacOS X Server simply because they're closer to OpenBSD instead of Linux. For another specific example, consider the way you (John) have conflated Linux with "open source" as quoted above. Again, go read www.opensource.org. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? (was: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac ) Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 4 Jan 1999 23:44:10 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <76rjoa$stu$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <3687C9FF.E6EAE91@ericsson.com> <914950005snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <suvidya-3012981311170001@238.newark-35-40rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <368A74C9.9356C589@ericsson.com> <76ep2b$27l$10@blue.hex.net> <suvidya-3112981528470001@134.newark-15-20rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <368BE96C.2258EAB@ericsson.com> <suvidya-0401990107460001@241.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <76psfd$jp6$0@dosa.alt.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 1999 23:44:10 GMT John De Hoog (washi@washi.nu) wrote: > Arun Gupta <suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at> wrote... > >American companies used to complain of nongovernmental barriers to > >doing business in Japan. Maybe they were lying. On the other hand, > >for example, consider what a Japanese distributor of photographic > >equipment might have done to a retailer who also bought Kodak film > >to sell in its stores. Such a retailer might go to the bottom of > >the queue in supplies of important stuff and in credit extended. > >The agreement between distributor and retailer might be fully legal, > >voluntary and might even contain a clause that if the retailer also did > >business elsewhere, it would lose certain benefits from the distributor. > > > >But in those circumstances competitors cannot enter or reenter the market. > >The next step would be the Japanese filmmaker, having a protected market > >at home (and protected not by government fiat, but by market arrangements) > >could then begin dumping in the US, subsidizing its dumping by charging > >its Japanese customers more. It could then build a substantial US presence, > >by the time its competition either went out of business or built entire > >retail chains in Japan. > If you are implying that this in fact took place (i.e., that Fuji Film was > guilty as charged by Kodak), you are wrong. Kodak film has long been widely > available in every part of Japan where Kodak expended the necessary effort > to market it. It did not magically appear in rural shops where Kodak did not > make that necessary effort. Kodak has since learned this, and is now making > that effort, to great success. The case against Fuji was found by the WTO to > be without merit, which is the correct judgment to be made. Having recently lived in Japan, and worked for Sony (right next to the headquarters in Higashigotanda, Tokyo), I should mention that it is very true that significant distribution barriers exist against newcomers to markets in Japan. And it's also true that many of those newcomers are American firms. But this doesn't add up to unfair business practices specifically practiced against America. Such distribution barriers are part and parcel to Japanese business -- American firms involved in it are simply Yet Another Company in Japan. It's not an American thing really: Sony is the prototypical Firm With This Problem in Japan. A classic example told to me by a Sony executive: when Sony came out with the Sony Playstation, Sega and Nintendo had a near-lockhold on the distribution market. All major distributors (the key to getting products to the myriad of toy stores and department stores out there) were locked in with deals with Sega and Nintendo and refused to distribute Sony PlayStation CDs. People could buy the PlayStation but no titles. So Sony introduced a whole new distribution method: sell its PlayStation CDs at...get ready... 7-Eleven. 7-Eleven is omnipresent in Japan. With the PlayStation a huge hit, toy stores feeling the crunch ganged up on their distributors and forced them to distribute PlayStation CDs. The rest is history. Not to say that there aren't unfair barriers on a country-to-country basis in some markets. For example, the rice situation is amazing. The Japanese government is weirdly controlled largely by agrarian interests, giving the Japanese rice lobby *enormous* leverage. Japan is a small country, with limited agricultural resources, so native rice ain't cheap (about ten times the price of rice elsewhere). So for decades the Japanese government openly told people that foreign rice was Bad, even going so far as to broadcast TV commercials in the 60s and 70s saying that foreign rice was filled with pesticides and rat parts. Until the 1990s. A few years back, Japan had a huge rice crop failure, and the government was forced to take drastic measures, first trying to convince the Japanese people to _temporarily_ buy foreign rice, then later forcing Japanese rice sellers to include 10% or more foreign rice in their rice bags. The rice sellers got around this by selling Japanese rice bags with a little inner bag of foreign rice, which consumers would throw out when they opened the main bag! But after the crop failure, many Japanese learned (1) that unlike Thai and Taiwanese rice, custom-made-for-Japan American rice was actually pretty good, and (2) it was 1/10th the cost of Japanese rice, but forced to the same price as Japanese rice through huge tarrifs. Not for long though. The WTO will soon force Japan to drop its rice tarrifs, and the Japanese rice industry will be decimated. Sean
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 5 Jan 1999 00:10:30 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <76rl9m$99f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76rida$otk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: : > I agree with everything you said Chuck. : That's good. :-) However, why are you disagreeing with Sal so vigorously? : > My "pedant" shot is directed at those who have a "Linux user" bogeyman : > held so tightly in their minds that they are unwilling to let the real : > world intrude on it. : Who are you talking about? Sal? I'm afraid I saw a little bit of the same in your last post. : At the risk of being blunt, the way you and MJP have responded to "YellowBox : for Linux" threads has contained so much pro-Linux bias that it's tough to : find common ground. But if you want to talk about your opinions about how : cool Linux is, hey, that's fine. I'd like to see which of my posts you object to. I've got a feeling for where our disagreement is, but maybe we can nail it down: Every time I say "Linux" I mean "Linux and all that other stuff". Every time you read me say Linux you think I mean "Linux and NOT all that other stuff." I'm not sure you caught it, but right at the beginning of my discussion with Sal I said something like "I probably should use the term Open Source, but Linux is probably good enough shorthand (until you meet a USENET lawyer)." Why don't you dig out those posts of mine and read them with that in mind. Better yet, give me the dejanews ID and we'll compare notes. : Where I start objecting is when you start claiming that other people who : don't share your biases are not talking about the "real world", or where : you start ignoring the basic facts of the history of "open source". Which bias is that? And which of us has it? Seriously. : For a specific example, consider the way Michael generalized that the whole : crowd from NeXT advocacy was anti-Linux. Fact is, most of the NeXT people I : know are pro-Linux, and many are strongly so. It's pretty sad when you guys : start claiming that we have problems grasping reality just because we aren't : as steeped in pro-Linux zealotry. I'm not Michael (I'm sure he can speak for himself). I nontheless get this strong image that you are angry with someone who was here before I showed up. : Or when he objected to people pointing out that Apple has been working : with the open source community while writing MacOS X Server simply : because they're closer to OpenBSD instead of Linux. Again you confuse me with Michael ... this is the way you treat Linux users as individuals? : For another specific example, consider the way you (John) have conflated : Linux with "open source" as quoted above. Again, go read : www.opensource.org. Ah well, as I said above here is the key. In my mind when I say "Linux" I am including all that went before. In your mind I am denying all that came before. I'd ask who is the zealot ... the one who thanks everybody ... or the one who requires a specific incantation. John
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 00:22:43 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76rm0i$s0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> In article <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: [ ... ] > Widespread adoption of GNU tools has taken off with the advent of stable > Linux. Nonsense. The widespread adoption of GNU tools took off before Linux ever existed. The fact that they were commonly installed *everywhere*, almost always superior to the preinstalled ones from vendors, and they were licensed in an open-source fashion is why Linux uses them. Most of the GNU tools were already mature and had already been ported everywhere...hint: which came first, configure & autoconf or Linux? While Linux has added another popular platform they ship upon, and mindshare, the GNU tools and Open Source would be doing just fine without Linux. Hell, remove bash and the rest of the GNU-based utilities, and you've got a kernel that won't get much past loading init. Acknowledge the simple fact that Linux owes a great deal to GNU. > The Open Source userbase has grown by at least an order of > magnitude since Linux's introduction, Nonsense. There is far more open source software around and in use than there are Linux users. How many people d'ya think use Netscape, or gcc, or emacs? Apache? Perl? How many systems owe a debt to BSD 4.x Unix in terms of system APIs and networking? > and consequently there is a tremendous association between "Open Source" > and "Linux". This should not be surprising to anyone. What a surprise. You start off by dismissing the absolutely essential contribution the GNU project represents towards Linux. You claim that Linux represents the exemplar of Open Source and is responsible for (paraphrased) "growing the OS userbase by at least an order of magnitude" You finish by claiming that there is a "tremendous association" between OS and Linux even after I've quoted www.opensource.org and their history to demonstrate that the very term came about as a result of the debate between GNU manifesto people and Netscape about their licensing. > So when someone says > >> The notion of Open Source is bigger than Linux, just as it was bigger than >> GNU and the FSF. That someone was me; now, go read the four-part list at the bottom of the article you quoted it from. > with regard to "Linux hype" and "Open Source hype", I think it's worth > noting that Open Source may be bigger than Linux, but the Linux part of > it grows faster by far than anything else you might care to name. And I > don't give a rat's ass what happened three, or five, or ten years ago in > some nostalgic dreamworld fantasy involving Amigas, Ataris, Altairs, > Eniacs, pigs, sheep, cows, or whatever. It doesn't have a bearing on the > conversation. GCC, emacs, Apache, perl, the JDK, and Netscape's Mozilla only have a "bearing on this conversation" insofar as they run on Linux, huh? The only reason these tools are as popular or as useful as they are is because your current favorite OS and pet project brought them into the light of day, right? The fact that most of the largest FTP, database, news, and web sites are running Solaris or FreeBSD-- not Linux-- doesn't matter? What an amazing case of tunnel vision! Well, no doubt it's due to relativistic effects from the amazing speed at which Linux is improving the open source community. But those of us with a less-hyped frame of reference (what John called the "real world", perhaps?) seem to be doing a much better job of matching their statements to demonstrable facts. -Chuck PS: Anyone care to give me odds as to whether Mike'll stick to debating the facts rather than seeking his usual refuge in personal attacks and more obscenities? The frequency is obviously pretty high but his behavior is nonlinear enough to possibly make it interesting. Hmm...maybe we could get a pool going? -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:29:24 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36915CE4.B8726932@ericsson.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <76r50l$csv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: > I didn't say he was; I deliberately did not direct my comments towards either > John or you, for that matter. Ah, just a voice in the wind... > I disagree. Linux is one factor that has been massively publicized-- > excessively so, and often without the pro-Linux crowd giving due credit to > earlier work. Oh. So that's the real problem. [Axe grind follows...] > Linux got involved _later_, as is mentioned several paragraphs later. > The compilation environment that comes with Linux is based off the GNU > compiler tools; gcc is not only found on every Linux distribution CD, but has > been ported and used on literally hundreds of CPU-vendor-OS tuples for quite > a few years before Linux existed. As I pointed out to two others, this isn't a matter of who-came-first. Here, let me help you out: [clap clap clap clap] In honor of the fact that your Open Source software affiliations predate Linux by almost fifteen years, I present this Digital Founding Father Award. You're an inspiration, blah blah blah, and we're all very proud of you. > Again, I regard such a claim as not giving due credit to the GNU project for > gcc, gdb, emacs, the GNU C library, and the rest of the GNU tools. Obviously, > I agree with those people who regard Linux as Linux/GNU. Well, of course. From your point of view, Open Source isn't about giving software away, it's about keeping people from "stealing" it. "Stealing" software, "stealing" ideas, "stealing" credit. MJP
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Predictions for MacWorld Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 01:07:50 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Message-ID: <85D86BEFFD9659DC.5568B12BA604CE80.BEF0EEF80BFB31AE@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <76lonu$44u$1@your.mother.com> <76mgu1$j11$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.iadfw.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Jan 4 18:55:16 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:24:53 +1100, "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote: >Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) wrote: >>o MacOS X will be released. The rumors were true, MacOS X Server was >>cancelled, but the reason was because the Carbon technology was so close >>to release, Apple decided to wait an additional three months and release >>a more complete system. Several major Carbonized applications (e.g., >>Photoshop) will be released. > > >Maybe a beta Carbon will be released for MOSX Server? I mean, all those >carbon apps being written need to be able to test on something right? >And if they work, they might as well sell them eh? > >>o QuickTime for Windows will be bundled by several PC manufacturers, >>creating a market for QuickTime Streaming Server. > >That'd be good news Streaming QuickTime could be HUGE! 8-) >>o WebObjects will be bundled with MacOS X [Server] for PowerPC, sold >>separately for MacOS X for Intel. MacOS X, bundled with WebObjects and >>QuickTime Streaming Server running on the new G3 will be touted as the >>ultimate Web server. > > >Or MOSX Intel must have WebObjects and Quicktime Server - thus justifying >a very large price....? > >>o Most of the source code for MacOS X [Server] will be included. This >>will catch the attention of the press, fueling the frenzy of open source distribution. > >Very interesting > >>o Jobs will also demonstrate MacOS X [Server] for Intel running >> side-by-side with NT running on the same Intel box. > >>o A new version of Linux for PowerPC will be released, and Jobs will >> demonstrate Linux on the new G3 server running side-by-side with Linux >> for Intel. > > >And there can be some interesting Linux-Intel vs Linux-PPC demos, >and some NT-Intel vs MOSX-Intel demos. That would be cool. > >You mean YB-Java without a specialised version for each platform? >That would be of huge interest eh? Write to YB java and have a great >framework, it works on every Java platform, and works at near >native speeds on MOSX and Windows. > >>o OpenStep will be announced/released for Linux. > >You forgot the idea of a MacGUI + Quicktime + YB/Openstep + Carbon >running on Linux. What I don't get is why someone said that Linux is going head-to-head with OSX Server edition. Huh? If anything, Linux and OSX S will HELP each other. AFAIK, OSX S is supposed to be simply NextStep stuff with a more Mac-like GUI...ergo, Linux could be put under it..... -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks Subject: Re: The real reasons MS doesn't have to worry about Linux Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 01:32:05 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Message-ID: <02E5CF302A526B62.E79B5826B8AC52E2.27F1FC240265EE78@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <76n0cc$kfe$0@dosa.alt.net> <zuma-0201992353180001@whx-ca1-04.ix.netcom.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.iadfw.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Jan 4 19:19:31 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:53:18 -0800, zuma@netcom.com (tony austin) wrote: > >Linux is a superior product, has multiple GUI's, and it's free. >Microsoft can't match that. > >Once Linux has the apps that everyone is dying for, the heart >and minds of the desktop will be Linux. Remember, Linux runs >on just about every chip. That in itself will lead to >platform standardization for the PC world. > >In the next century when Joe-User goes down to Frys Electronics >to buy a a $400 computer, said computer will be running Linux >because a $400 computer with preinstalled Windows would have >jacked up the price about 20% and that won't be competetive. > >All Linux needs are some name-brand apps and those name-brand >apps may just be created on a Linux box someday. When those >apps arrive, so will the hearts and minds. > >Unix drives the net, why can't it drive a personal computer. Amen! The real threat to M$ (among several) is the fact that a company yet to be create or maybe not (Apple?) will one day "get it" and start coming out with easy to service (ie, as easy as a 1999 PC) home server that allows you to buy a $400 Linux server (complete with newbie-friendly GUI) and connect $100 home NCs...or WebPad-like gizmoes. Cool things are about to happen! -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 00:46:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76rnch$tbd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <36908a34.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> In article <36908a34.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote: > suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at (Arun Gupta) wrote: >> "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: [ ... ] > However, the growth of Linux distributions IS now very significant, and I > think that Michaels main point (which you omitted) is still valid - > >> That, in itself, makes Linux an important focus for those creating and >> distributing Open Source software. That point is absolutely valid, and I have no objections to it. Where the problem comes in is when people make the leap to "...Linux is the only focus..." in the depths of their pro-Linux zealotry. Because then you get charming gems like: Person #1: "I want YB for Linux. Apple isn't supporting open source efforts because they haven't ported YB to Linux." Person #2: "That isn't true. Apple's using stuff from OpenBSD and GNU, been exchanging ideas, and have made lots of their source available back to the community. They are working with open source." Person #1: "That's completely irrelevant because we were talking about _Linux_!" Note the obvious presumption that GNU and the other open source BSD Unixes are second-class members of the Open Source community. Such arguments from MJP^H^H^H Person #1 need to be exposed and corrected. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 5 Jan 1999 01:46:09 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Message-ID: <76rqt1$338@news1.panix.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76pobu$h39@news1.panix.com> <76qnam$jf5$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> On 4 Jan 1999 15:39:02 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >: I am in no way referring to Linux users as bogeymen, nor am I saying that >: all Linux users fit that profile. In fact, I think I made it abundantly >: clear several times now. >Sal, you are applying a double standard just as fast as you can. >Preposterous exchanges like this spring to mind: > >I say: > > "I hope you aren't going to propose that developers have the same > control under the Microsoft Plan and the Linux Plan?" >You reply: > "MS makes its money on large corporate sales, and that requires them to > cooperate with developers. The fact that they were willing to in the > first place (unlike IBM or Apple) is the reason why they are where they > are." >Is this an honest response or just a way to wave hands and get out of the >way? Yes, it is an honest response. I pointed out an example of a well supported extension (GGI) that was rejected by Linus and excluded from the official kernel tree. I don't see much difference between a world dominated by Linux and a world dominated by Microsoft. I don't see how one "mono culture" is diverse while the other isn't. Commercial software has restrictions; can you honestly tell me that the GPL has no restrictions? I've stated this before so I might as well state it again. I find the choice between free software and commercial software to be a lot like the choice between "coffee and cake" and "coffee or cake". I most certainly don't want to see either removed from my menu. >Similarly, when I simply say: > > "When I hack on my own time I'm looking for a creative outlet. I > require my recreational OS to satisfy a certain aesthetic. Windows > doesn't supply it. Rhapsody might have. For now, Linux does." > >You reply: > > "My recreational programming is pro bono work for local charities. I > get a lot more enjoyment out of knowing that my work is doing good > than I would get knowing that my work was part of some OS holy war. YMMV." > >I say I'm looking for an aesthetic, which should leave a lot of room for >people to say "I've got my aesthetic, thank you". Instead you accuse me >of being part of a holy war (and later pretend you didn't). If you in any way were insulted by my holy war comment, I apologize. I can assure you that it was not meant to an insult nor was it meant to be an accusation. >[There are similar examples in the thread "How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac" >for those who with to read them.] There are also examples of you deliberately misrepresenting statements I've made, even after I corrected you numerous times. >Where doees this unthinking rage come from - does it come from Linux or >does it come from you? What rage? I am not in the least bit angry at all.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dl4ggx.10dbdeb15djgvyN@pppsl1476.chicagonet.net> References: <76lp6n$64@news1.panix.com> <915370129snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76r9r1$g8q$1@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <spam-0401991510050001@192.168.21.134> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:49:21 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:48:29 -0600 mroeder <spam@macromedia.com> wrote: > In article <76r9r1$g8q$1@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, > michal@gortel.phys.ualberta.ca wrote: > > > jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > > > > : I would like to know how the 10 million users figure is reached. I > know a few > > : people who bought Linux CDs to try it because it is so cheap, then > deleted it > > : and forgot about it after a week or two. Are they being counted? > > > > Not likely as these numbers are estimates and NOT the number of CDs sold. > > Myself I am "responsible" for many, actively working, Linux installations > > without any CDs beeing bought. OTOH I am likely counted for at least > > three Windoze sites which are really not in use at all unless you count > > my son playing an occasional game as "use". If you can tell me where > > I can buy a laptop without paying M$ tax then I am all ears. > > CompUSA, in the Apple section. Ask to look at their PowerBooks. }: ) LOL. Good answer! :) -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 5 Jan 1999 02:46:17 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <76rudp$bch$4@blue.hex.net> References: <3687C9FF.E6EAE91@ericsson.com> <914950005snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <suvidya-3012981311170001@238.newark-35-40rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <368A74C9.9356C589@ericsson.com> <76ep2b$27l$10@blue.hex.net> <76gjfa$71j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 1999 02:46:17 GMT On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:31:53 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >If, on the other hand, you mean that the crack pusher is using some sort of >influence (the demand his customers have created for his product) then you >mean he is making use of entirely voluntary impulses on the part of his >buyers, and therefore that all transactions are voluntary, i.e. "free". If the initial sale of [favored highly-addictive substance] results in the customer losing freedom to choose, then there has been a loss of freedom on the part of the customer. >> The "marijuana market" probably involves less coercion due to the lesser >> degree of addictiveness of hemp. > >I sense a new definition of "coercion" emerging, one in which an associate in >the self-inflicted process of drug addiction may be said to be "coercive". >Therefore the drug dealer is "coercing" his customers to become addicted. > >Is this the definition you want to use? It's not a binary situation, being fully black and white. If the consumer has extensive choices, then there is a freer market than there is if there are more limited choices. If the vendor gains the power to limit consumer choices, that has necessarily reduced the freedom of consumers, which reduces their degrees of freedom, and thus reduces how free the market is. It doesn't much matter in what sectors those degrees of freedom are. >> In a monopolistic situation, while the purchasor may have the ability to >> choose to buy or not buy, since the monopolist holds coercive power over >> things like pricing and availability, the amount of coercion involved >> surely distorts this away from being a really "free" market. > >No, it really doesn't. Again, tell me what you mean by "coercive power" and >I'll tell you why the "monopolist" doesn't have it. Unless, of course, you >mean "coercive power" to be the ability to sell a valuable product at such a >price that no competitor can undersell him. In which case, he really doesn't >have any power; it's his competitors and customers who are "coercing" the >"monopolist" to give out such valuable goodies at such low prices. > >Or you could just look at it as a mutual agreement in which *everyone* has >power and *everyone* comes out ahead. That's generally the way "free market >advocates" choose to look at it, without any bias toward one party or >another. Others, like "consumer advocates", don't see things quite >so...equitably. If a vendor has, and uses, the power to limit the set of choices available, that reduces the degrees of freedom available to purchasers. -- Microsoft Corp., concerned by the growing popularity of the free 32-bit operating system for Intel systems, Linux, has employed a number of top programmers from the underground world of virus development. Bill Gates stated yesterday: "World domination, fast -- it's either us or Linus". Mr. Torvalds was unavailable for comment ... (rjm@swift.eng.ox.ac.uk (Robert Manners), in comp.os.linux.setup) cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: RajLamba@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: 32bit network card 89006 Date: Monday, 04 Jan 1999 21:14:27 -0600 Organization: MegsInet, Inc. - Low Cost, High Performance Internet Services Message-ID: <04019921.1427@aol.com> Hello I have some 36bit 600x1200 scanners that i want to sell. Along with vidoe cards netwoking few other things you can see the list of things i have at http://members.xoom.com/RajLamba/comp.htm copy and paste the address. You are welcome to make an offer to me on any of those prices I will try my best to do whatever i can for you Thank you. Raj HD%
From: gwolfe@primenet.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc Subject: Software to play NeXT score files on Windows/Linux...exists? Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:28:26 GMT Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <36914def.27346064@news.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there any software that will play NeXT score files...even playscore ported to win32/linux would be great. I found some score files that I would like to get converted to wav/au/snd etc. format. Thanks, Gary Wolfe gwolfe@primenet.com
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: In Your Guts You Know Steve Is Nuts Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 5 Jan 1999 03:14:02 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <76s01q$kr3$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <368BCFE1.DCC6F75B@gamewood.net> <B2B137BE-19D1B@206.165.43.73> <368d2ee9$0$19544@nntp1.ba.best.com> <macghod-0101992335030001@sdn-ar-001casbarp289.dialsprint.net> <Thingfishhhh-0301991442330001@ppp-207-104-158-71.wnck11.pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 1999 03:14:02 GMT thingfishhhh (Thingfishhhh@yahoo.com) wrote: > (Not to give Jobs complete credit for the iMac - I'm sure there might be > some people out there who deserve the credit for coming up with it - or > does anyone know if the iMac was Jobs' idea from scratch?) In fact, the iMac wasn't an Apple machine at all. Its basic design was adopted from prototypes of Power Computing's Last Machine That Never Got Built when Apple took bought Power out. Sean Troll, troll, troll, troll....
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 5 Jan 1999 03:54:04 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Message-ID: <76s2cs$4so@news1.panix.com> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75upqa$47f$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <75vd7j$25r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <760kof$dlk$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <ch3-2612980901450001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368545B6.63E9976C@nstar.net> <ch3-2712981049520001@1cust11.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <766lp1$bns$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <76e0kc$8cr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76efrj$8jf@news1.panix.com> <76gqgn$cqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76lp6k$64@news1.panix.com> <76r9lq$h6n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:52:10 GMT, r.e.ballard@usa.net <r.e.ballard@usa.net> wrote: >> >This sounds horribly much like NeWS, Adobe's incredible vision for a >> >Networked Windowing system based on Postscript. Sun adopted it in 1991 for >> It might be. >I hope not. NeWS ate machine cycles and made fast machines look very slow. >A 486 Linux machine appeared to run faster than a Sparc 20 (because NeWS >was gobbling up the machine). I find DPS faster than XFree86 in most cases and faster than Accelerated X in at least half the cases I've tried. (PII-350/192mb and Matrox video cards) >> If Apple was planning to sell it as a "Unix" product. So far it looks like >> Apple isn't going to be selling it that way. >Apple will have two competitors. Microsoft, which will do everything it >can to break the blue box, and Linux which will do everything it can to >encourage cross-platform compatibility. They have at least that many competitors now. Linux and OSX will complement each other much more than Linux and NT or MacOS. Most non-x Linux apps should run under OSX without much work, you can't say the same about NT or MacOS8. I fully expect that most users running OSX Server will be running it to either serve/develop WebObjects Apps or replace NT in a Mac environment. When OSX ships, I expect most users to be using it to run updated versions of Mac Apps _and_a_few_ YellowBox Apps. I don't see many people using it as a traditional Unix platform (but I have been wrong in the past) Developers who use it might be more inclined to use it to run YB Apps and the YB development tool set (InterfaceBuilder, ProjectBuilder, EOModeler et al) and traditional Unix shells. With that said, if you need a traditional Unix platform, OSX probably isn't for you. I can name at least six other Unix platforms that are available for free; I don't see the need for yet another. If you get a chance to try it; do so. If you like what you see, great. If not; no one here is going to have hard feelings if you decide that OSX isn't for you. If you want a head start in evaluating it, head over to www.stepwise.com and read some of the articles describing the programming environment and preview some of the Apps that are available for it. >> It might. If the App has a *BSD* target you might be able to just click and >> go to intall it. >I guess the big question here is which toolkits and APIs are supported. >If TK, GTK, and GNOME are supported Mac OS/X could be the "Best of both >worlds". If a "freebie" X11 system were included, Mac would offer the best >of both UNIX/Linux AND Mac. Tk might be available (check StepWise) I doubt GNOME is or will be any time soon. > In fact, FreeBSD compatibility might be just >the thing to give FreeBSD the boost required to get onto massive desktops >and servers. Well, seeing that FreeBSD is being used on the biggest Internet site (Yahoo) I think it can stand on its own. >Apple got burned when they tried to keep the Mac Hardware closed and >proprietary. When they finally adopted some common standards, it helped >open up the market. OSX is built on Mach and BSD; both are Open Source projects. While Apple hasn't publicly stated so, they are working with the various BSD groups (this has been confirmed by members of the BSD mailing lists. You can confirm it yourself by reading the .h files and man pages that ship with OSX) >> At one point, someone suggested that a user loadable extension to run 3rd >> party binaries might be possible on Mach, after all that is what the Blue >> Box is and OSX uses that to run Mac Apps on Mach. >In theory, the Mach microkernel can concurrently support multiple operating >systems. It does require interoperability and the use of messages or message >queues to drivers rather than direct interaction with hardware (Mach supports >this model - examples include VMS/UNIX. Unfortunately, most coresident >systems have broken down in contention for resources that must be arbitrated >by a neutral 3rd party. I don't see much advantage to running BSD and Linux side by side. Unless you plan on generating "the mother of all multiple OSes running on the same box screenshot" >> There is at least on 3rd party X server out there right now. ^^^ one > >This would be good unless it's one of those $400/copy X servers. At one point there were at least two free X servers for NeXT. I'm not sure what the status of either of them are right now. >Right now, OpenSource has the mind-share, and both Linux and FreeBSD are >riding the wave. Apple will either catch the wave, or get pulled into the >undertow. I don't see why OSX can't be part of the Open Source world with at least the same footing as Solaris/AIX/HPUX or any other commercial Unix product.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 5 Jan 1999 02:19:52 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <76rss8$des$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76pobu$h39@news1.panix.com> <76qnam$jf5$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76rqt1$338@news1.panix.com> Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote: : On 4 Jan 1999 15:39:02 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: : >[trimmed for brevity] : >Is this an honest response or just a way to wave hands and get out of the : >way? : Yes, it is an honest response. I pointed out an example of a well supported : extension (GGI) that was rejected by Linus and excluded from the official : kernel tree. Well ... if anyone was really worked up about it, they could fork the kernel, right? I'm not suggesting anyone should, be we all know that it is an option which is not available for Windows NT. I think you know this, but you ignore it in a dishonest fashion. : I don't see much difference between a world dominated by Linux and a world : dominated by Microsoft. I don't see how one "mono culture" is diverse while : the other isn't. Commercial software has restrictions; can you honestly tell : me that the GPL has no restrictions? How many of the programs which run under Linux does Linus control? I think it's close to one. I think you know this, but you ignore it in a dishonest fashion. : I've stated this before so I might as well state it again. I find the choice : between free software and commercial software to be a lot like the choice : between "coffee and cake" and "coffee or cake". I most certainly don't want : to see either removed from my menu. Then why, when I ask a question as simple as "How many C++ IDEs does the Microsoft Plan support?" Do you answer: "On my machine I have Delphi 1.0, Delphi 4.0, Visual Studio with C++ and J++, JBuilder, Visual Cafe and PFE. I also have Cygnus's win32 GNU tools and Perl." This list only includes one C++ IDE. I think you know this, but you ignore it in a dishonest fashion. [trimmed for brevity] : If you in any way were insulted by my holy war comment, I apologize. I can : assure you that it was not meant to an insult nor was it meant to be an : accusation. I thank you for the apology. : >[There are similar examples in the thread "How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac" : >for those who with to read them.] : There are also examples of you deliberately misrepresenting statements : I've made, even after I corrected you numerous times. Show me the dejanews IDs. Maybe we can find something I can apologize to you for. : >Where doees this unthinking rage come from - does it come from Linux or : >does it come from you? : What rage? I am not in the least bit angry at all. Then what's your excuse? John
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 5 Jan 1999 03:20:30 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <76s0du$kr3$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <364295A3.ABE8C927@earthlink.net> <cirby-2311981757030001@pm56-03.magicnet.net> <73cqbc$vla$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <365B0A93.29DACF66@spamtoNull.com> <73f60d$f74$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> <365C4ABE.7353A7B@spamtoNull.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 1999 03:20:30 GMT Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote: > "R. Tang" wrote: > > > Think Different. > > Won an Emmy and a Clio. > > Sold a helluva lot of computers. A promo campaign by any definition. > Really? Hmmmm...I seem to recall an awful lot of people surveyed who had > no idea on earth *what* the commercials were about...:) Of course, it's > so much easier just to forget about those few million people, isn't it? Quick quiz everyone: Anyone know the formal name of the classic logcal reasoning mistake Jonathan just made here? Sean
Message-ID: <369197E8.6FE1F841@nstar.net> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:41:12 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> <76rm0i$s0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: > Nonsense. The widespread adoption of GNU tools took off before Linux ever > existed. The fact that they were commonly installed *everywhere*, No, not everywhere. They ran on *Unix* systems, and a few "Unix-like" systems. They were installed in many places, but far from "everywhere". As I alluded in a previous posting about what makes a "good Unix", I totally agree with the notion that GNU tools are common and even necessary. I expect them to be present on a capable Unix system, and that expectation only comes about from having grown used to them. That, in turn, comes from their commonality on a wide range of systems for a very long time. There's no reason to argue about this point; I agree as I've said and I don't know why you keep bringing it up out of context. > almost > always superior to the preinstalled ones from vendors, Absolutely. > and they were licensed > in an open-source fashion is why Linux uses them. Also true. > Most of the GNU tools were already mature and had already been ported > everywhere...hint: which came first, configure & autoconf or Linux? While > Linux has added another popular platform they ship upon, and mindshare, the > GNU tools and Open Source would be doing just fine without Linux. Who could disagree? You're absolutely correct. > Hell, remove bash and the rest of the GNU-based utilities, and you've got a > kernel that won't get much past loading init. Acknowledge the simple fact > that Linux owes a great deal to GNU. Why shouldn't I? It's perfectly true. > Nonsense. There is far more open source software around and in use than there > are Linux users. Uh. I'm not sure how to take this. Are you saying that there are more Open Source software users than Linux users? Well, of course, since Linux users are a subset of the Open Source software community. Are you saying that there are more Open Source software packages than Linux users? I'm not sure how you get that, or what it's supposed to prove... Maybe you're saying that there are more Open Source software users who *don't* use Linux than there are who *do* use Linux. I'd be curious to know how you reach that conclusion. > How many people d'ya think use Netscape, I think you mean "Mozilla". Netscape Navigator and Netscape Communicator are not Open Source software, Chuck. > or gcc, or emacs? Apache? Perl? How many systems owe a debt to BSD 4.x Unix in terms of system > APIs and networking? Lots, to be sure. Lots and lots. > > and consequently there is a tremendous association between "Open Source" > > and "Linux". This should not be surprising to anyone. > > What a surprise. > > You start off by dismissing the absolutely essential contribution the GNU > project represents towards Linux. No, I didn't. But that's what you keep telling yourself, and that's what keeps you so exercised on this topic. Tilting at windmills, non-stop. It's a caricature. > You claim that Linux represents the exemplar of Open Source and is responsible > for (paraphrased) "growing the OS userbase by at least an order of magnitude" The second, I said. The first, I did not. > You finish by claiming that there is a "tremendous association" between OS > and Linux even after I've quoted www.opensource.org and their history to > demonstrate that the very term came about as a result of the debate between > GNU manifesto people and Netscape about their licensing. What does a www.opensource.org statement about origins have to do with the truth of the statement that there is a "tremendous association" between Open Source software and Linux? > That someone was me; I know that. Now everybody knows it. Here's a medal. > now, go read the four-part list at the bottom of the > article you quoted it from. I read it. What am I supposed to be looking for? > GCC, emacs, Apache, perl, the JDK, and Netscape's Mozilla only have a "bearing > on this conversation" insofar as they run on Linux, huh? Ah, the inevitable strawman. Keep it up. I'm amused to have words stuffed into my mouth so often. Doppelganger am I, the bogeyman of John Jensen's remarks. I serve as a convenient container for your prejudices and outrage. Glad to be of such noble service while you work it all out. > The only reason these tools are as popular or as useful as they are is because > your current favorite OS and pet project brought them into the light of day, > right? Well, Linux is a big part of it. Definitely. But it's not appropriate for you to call it my "favorite OS" and "pet project". Despite the vitriol behind those characterizations, they're really not accurate. I mean, where am I? Posting to comp.sys.next.advocacy, being scolded by an ex-NeXTer for my advocacy? I have to laugh. > The fact that most of the largest FTP, database, news, and web sites are > running Solaris or FreeBSD-- not Linux-- doesn't matter? Who said it doesn't matter? Not me. It must have been you. > What an amazing case of tunnel vision! Grand finale! Having worked himself into a furious indignation of righteous fire and brimstone, we are treated to the burning in effigy of the strawman! > Well, no doubt it's due to > relativistic effects from the amazing speed at which Linux is improving the > open source community. But those of us with a less-hyped frame of reference > (what John called the "real world", perhaps?) seem to be doing a much better > job of matching their statements to demonstrable facts. Ouch! I give it a ten! > -Chuck > > PS: Anyone care to give me odds as to whether Mike'll stick to debating the > facts rather than seeking his usual refuge in personal attacks and more > obscenities? Step 2, The Double Standard? We have such a pattern emerging... > The frequency is obviously pretty high but his behavior is > nonlinear enough to possibly make it interesting. > > Hmm...maybe we could get a pool going? I'm in! MJP
Message-ID: <36919929.7E6BB778@nstar.net> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:46:33 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <36908a34.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <76rnch$tbd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: [cut] > Because then you get charming gems like: > > Person #1: "I want YB for Linux. Apple isn't supporting open source efforts > because they haven't ported YB to Linux." I searched DejaNews for the phrase "open source efforts", with 29 matches. Two had my name attached to them. Neither posting contained the above quote. > Person #2: "That isn't true. Apple's using stuff from OpenBSD and GNU, been > exchanging ideas, and have made lots of their source available back to the > community. They are working with open source." > > Person #1: "That's completely irrelevant because we were talking about > _Linux_!" > > Note the obvious presumption that GNU and the other open source BSD Unixes are > second-class members of the Open Source community. Such arguments from > MJP^H^H^H Person #1 need to be exposed and corrected. Considering that neither "Person #1" statement was made by me, Chuck^H^H^H^H^H someone needs to explain why they're resorting to false attributions to make an increasingly desperate and groundless argument. Regards, MJP
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 5 Jan 1999 04:44:11 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> Sean Luke (seanl@cs.umd.edu) wrote: : John De Hoog (washi@washi.nu) wrote: : > If you are implying that this in fact took place (i.e., that Fuji Film was : > guilty as charged by Kodak), you are wrong. Kodak film has long been widely : > available in every part of Japan where Kodak expended the necessary effort : > to market it. It did not magically appear in rural shops where Kodak did not : > make that necessary effort. Kodak has since learned this, and is now making : > that effort, to great success. The case against Fuji was found by the WTO to : > be without merit, which is the correct judgment to be made. : Having recently lived in Japan, and worked for Sony (right next to the : headquarters in Higashigotanda, Tokyo), I should mention that it is very : true that significant distribution barriers exist against newcomers to : markets in Japan. And it's also true that many of those newcomers are : American firms. But this doesn't add up to unfair business practices : specifically practiced against America. : Such distribution barriers are part and parcel to Japanese business -- : American firms involved in it are simply Yet Another Company in Japan. : It's not an American thing really: Sony is the prototypical Firm With : This Problem in Japan. A classic example told to me by a Sony executive: : when Sony came out with the Sony Playstation, Sega and Nintendo had a : near-lockhold on the distribution market. All major distributors (the key : to getting products to the myriad of toy stores and department stores out : there) were locked in with deals with Sega and Nintendo and refused to : distribute Sony PlayStation CDs. People could buy the PlayStation but no : titles. So Sony introduced a whole new distribution method: sell its : PlayStation CDs at...get ready... 7-Eleven. 7-Eleven is omnipresent in : Japan. With the PlayStation a huge hit, toy stores feeling the crunch : ganged up on their distributors and forced them to distribute PlayStation : CDs. The rest is history. : Not to say that there aren't unfair barriers on a country-to-country basis : in some markets. For example, the rice situation is amazing. The Japanese : government is weirdly controlled largely by agrarian interests, giving the : Japanese rice lobby *enormous* leverage. Japan is a small country, with : limited agricultural resources, so native rice ain't cheap (about ten : times the price of rice elsewhere). So for decades the Japanese : government openly told people that foreign rice was Bad, even going so far : as to broadcast TV commercials in the 60s and 70s saying that foreign rice : was filled with pesticides and rat parts. : Until the 1990s. A few years back, Japan had a huge rice crop failure, : and the government was forced to take drastic measures, first trying to : convince the Japanese people to _temporarily_ buy foreign rice, then later : forcing Japanese rice sellers to include 10% or more foreign rice in their : rice bags. The rice sellers got around this by selling Japanese rice bags : with a little inner bag of foreign rice, which consumers would throw out : when they opened the main bag! But after the crop failure, many Japanese : learned (1) that unlike Thai and Taiwanese rice, custom-made-for-Japan : American rice was actually pretty good, and (2) it was 1/10th the cost of : Japanese rice, but forced to the same price as Japanese rice through huge : tarrifs. : Not for long though. The WTO will soon force Japan to drop its rice : tarrifs, and the Japanese rice industry will be decimated. I agreed with everything except this last statement. The Japanese farmers are a very powerful and voting group, and they are forcing LDP to seek all sort of measures to protect Japanese rice. Japan now wants to go from a import quota system to a tariff system, and it would allow an annual increase of 0.8% after 2001. (from current 8%?) At this rate, Japanese rice industry could still be cushioned for a couple more decades. Ofcourse WTO/US Rice won't like this, but whether it actually happens is another story. : Sean -- davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
Message-ID: <36919E55.D556838A@nstar.net> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:08:37 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> <76rm0i$s0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: [cut] > Hell, remove bash and the rest of the GNU-based utilities, and you've got a > kernel that won't get much past loading init. Acknowledge the simple fact > that Linux owes a great deal to GNU. I wonder why you specifically mention GNU, here. Aren't you accusing me of treating Linux with favoritism in the context of Open Source software? Yet here we have GNU arising over and over in your postings. Let that aside, for a moment. You say that Open Source software that is not associated with Linux has an equal or greater following. You mentioned a lot of software, but I think you could have done better to bring up some slightly different examples, like the PNG and zlib libraries. Both are Open Source projects with unencumbered licensing strategies; they're in use in many many projects, including some commercial ones: Netscape Navigator, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Adobe Photoshop, and Sun's Java JDK, for instance. These two libraries, as examples among many, are *extremely* common, and really could form the basis of an argument to the effect that Linux is a minority contributor to Open Source deployment. But wait; if you made that argument you'd be vulnerable to the fact that such widely-used projects are used in commercial software...because they have unrestrictive licensing. And didn't you mention Apache and Perl? Neither one is distributed under the GPL... So what is this really about? Is it about how much GNU has helped distribute Open Source software... or is it about how GNU might have hindered it? Some grist for your mill. Or bait for the hook. Step on up. MJP
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 4 Jan 1999 21:46:36 -0800 Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy Message-ID: <76s8vs$n0c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> References: <76lp6n$64@news1.panix.com> <915370129snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost In article <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <jim9@postmaster.co.uk> wrote: >I would like to know how the 10 million users figure is reached. I know a few >people who bought Linux CDs to try it because it is so cheap, then deleted it >and forgot about it after a week or two. Are they being counted? But there are also people who buy a CD and then pass it around to several friends. Somewhere at redhat.com, they've got a white paper that discusses how they came up with their estimate of 7 million several months ago. --Tim Smith
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:59:31 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: cancel <36919E55.D556838A@nstar.net> References: <36919E55.D556838A@nstar.net> Control: cancel <36919E55.D556838A@nstar.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <3691a900.0@news-out2.newsnerds.com> This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 06:01:12 +0000 Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death Message-ID: <3691AAA8.FB1740D7@digiscape.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <36755385.15185125@news2.asan.com> <36756390.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> <367576aa.24105942@news2.asan.com> <petrichF3z4KB.8uM@netcom.com> <KgAd2.393$eB2.831@news14.ispnews.com> <758bsk$bic$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com><slrn78qa0n.mih.treed@freeside.ultraviolet.org> <76jkum$e6$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76l8pf$lfo$1@plug.news.pipex.net> <76m90j$ga2$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76o2br$7cr$2@plug.news.pipex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Topley wrote: > > I've got IE4 without Active Desktop installed and it's actually pretty good. > It's faster than Netscape Communicator and I prefer the Favourites system to > Netscape's bookmarks - they're more accessible. Outlook Express is a decent > mail and news client too. > Netscape and IE both suck. There are numerous improvements to be made to both. Netscape is a hair better. Plus it's not MS, which is nice. -- /----------------------------------------------------------\ | | | Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. | | Pinky: You have no idea. | \----------------------------------------------------------/
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 5 Jan 1999 00:13:11 -0600 Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1 Message-ID: <76saho$11m@newsops.execpc.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76h45k$ckg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Stephen Edwards (ja207030@primenet.com) wrote: : r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote: : [big ol' snip for brevity] : So, if I understand you correctly, Microsoft allegedly *ahem* "borrowed" : some code/ideas from you/your employer... isn't there a lawsuit : to be had here? If the allegations are true, it certainly sounds like : grounds for a suit to me. But how could you prove anything? Incedentally, if this story is true (and I'm not saying I believe it just yet), then it should frighten us all w.r.t. the GPL. OSS people have debated in the past as to whether or not the GPL could hold up well in court if it were challenged. My bigger fear has always been not whether or not the GPL is legally sound, but rather whether or not we'd ever be able to find out it had been violated in the first place. If a company takes OSS code and includes it in their CSS product, then how would anybody ever know? After all, the product is closed source, so you would need a court-order to be allowed to view it, but you'd need to prove reasonable doubt before you get that court-order, and you would be hard pressed to provide that reasonable doubt without the source in the first place. It's a chicken-and-egg problem. Sometimes you can rely on the fear big companies have. Many large companies are afraid to accidentally violate laws even if the chances of getting caught are small, so they police themselves. Not so with Microsoft. If the above story is true (IF), then it shows that MS has no qualms about taking source offered for perusal on a friendly honor system and plagarising it in their closed product. This would be dastardly for OSS, since OSS code is all out there for the taking. -- Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 06:15:30 +0000 Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death Message-ID: <3691AE02.1D1842F9@digiscape.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <76oph0$4ja$5@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76r0hi$8rr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote: > The key factor in the success of Microsoft isn't it's superior >technology, Yep. That's for sure. > but rather it's superior customer support. You can dial a 1-900 number, > pay $35 and usually you can get a solution to your problem, $35 to hear 'Your problems are caused by Linux. Uninstall it'. $35 for someone to help you fix problems in the software? 1-900? Seems like MS makes enough money to pay for 1-800 lines. even if the > problem was pirated software or the solution is to reboot your machine. > > However, Microsoft uses the feedback it gets from it's customer service > lines to improve the help, context sensitive help, wizards, and other > forms of documentation. If you call that troubleshooting garbage in Windows help... > > Linux has only been getting this kind of feedback (from desktop users) for > the last 6 months, but already the support level and ease-of-learning has > improved radically. Enough to capture 10% of the market from Microsoft. 10? Thought it was 2%. Where'd you hear 10 from? -- /----------------------------------------------------------\ | http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu | | | | Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. | | Pinky: You have no idea. | \----------------------------------------------------------/
From: jvrobert@sedona.intel.com (Jason V. Robertson~) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization? Date: 5 Jan 1999 08:01:55 GMT Organization: Intel Corporation Message-ID: <76sgtj$3sb@news.or.intel.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <76m90j$ga2$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76o2br$7cr$2@plug.news.pipex.net> <3691AAA8.FB1740D7@digiscape.com> In article <3691AAA8.FB1740D7@digiscape.com>, Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote: >John Topley wrote: >> >> I've got IE4 without Active Desktop installed and it's actually pretty good. >> It's faster than Netscape Communicator and I prefer the Favourites system to >> Netscape's bookmarks - they're more accessible. Outlook Express is a decent >> mail and news client too. >> > >Netscape and IE both suck. There are numerous improvements to be made >to both. Netscape is a hair better. Plus it's not MS, which is nice. I'd have to agree - both are disgusting. I've never seen so many 'oops, my browser disappeared for no reason's, 'The page has moved', or blank FTP sites in my life. I'll get irritated with IE4 and vow to use Netscape, but then Netscape will irritate me as well. Pathetic. I would have to say, on the mail side, Outlook 98 is the best client available for any platform. Outlook Express is nice, to a lesser extent. -- |Jason V. Robertson <jason.v.robertson@intel.com> | |Not speaking for Intel. |
From: jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Predictions for MacWorld Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 03:02:55 -0500 Organization: None What-So-Ever Message-ID: <jslewis-0501990302560001@207-172-86-29.s29.tnt6.rcm.erols.com> References: <76lonu$44u$1@your.mother.com> <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 1999 08:02:56 GMT In article <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com>, jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: This Prediction I'll put a small amount of money on.. Street legal Sony Playstation Emmulator made by Connectix and bundled with sevral G3 configurations (including imac). Also available for $50 aftermarket. Jobs makes splash over games. Possible USB/Mezinine adapters connectors for playstation equipment. MicroConversions Voodoo 2 mez card gets some sort of offical reconition. Yosimity will have a mezinine slot (possibly used for internal modem) DVD/Firewire option sold by apple for mezinine slot and iMacs. Macromedia's Final cut/whatever it is now bundled. (I won't but money on that) Yosimity will have DVD drives. More public alliances between MS and Apple. Stranger things behind the scenes.
From: Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Registry Synchronization? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 08:51:53 +0000 Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death Message-ID: <3691D2A9.7E936881@digiscape.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <76m90j$ga2$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76o2br$7cr$2@plug.news.pipex.net> <3691AAA8.FB1740D7@digiscape.com> <76sgtj$3sb@news.or.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jason V. Robertson~" wrote: > > I would have to say, on the mail side, Outlook 98 is the best client available > for any platform. Outlook Express is nice, to a lesser extent. As long as HTML mail is turned off by default... -- /----------------------------------------------------------\ | http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu | | | | Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. | | Pinky: You have no idea. | \----------------------------------------------------------/
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Knife the baby" finally appears Date: 5 Jan 99 02:33:59 -0700 Organization: ICGNetcom Message-ID: <B2B72A9C-EDDA7@204.31.112.84> References: <76s0du$kr3$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy On Mon, Jan 4, 1999 8:20 PM, Sean Luke <mailto:seanl@cs.umd.edu> wrote: >Jonathan Harker (Limeyville@spamtoNull.com) wrote: > >> "R. Tang" wrote: >> >> > Think Different. >> > Won an Emmy and a Clio. >> > Sold a helluva lot of computers. A promo campaign by any definition. > >> Really? Hmmmm...I seem to recall an awful lot of people surveyed who had >> no idea on earth *what* the commercials were about...:) Of course, it's >> so much easier just to forget about those few million people, isn't it? > >Quick quiz everyone: Anyone know the formal name of the classic logcal >reasoning mistake Jonathan just made here? > >Sean > OK, Alex, I'll try that category for $10: Er, 'What is petitio principii?'..... ;-) (In the Double Jeopardy round: As so often on Usenet, it could be a case of Ignoratio elenchi [arguing and appearing to 'prove' an entirely unrelated point] too, however.... <g>) Cheers, -- Phil Brewster <pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com> "It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious." -- Alfred North Whitehead
From: Kiyoshi Shinomiya <kshinomiya@sprynet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 02:00:02 -0800 Organization: Sprynet News Service Message-ID: <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Is this list for agriculture or government? Japan is week in the agricultural world, therefore it needs time to to find the way to protect their people properly. On the other hand, US is weak in the super-computer market, thus, they have protected them with 400% traiffs. Doesn't these look similar? These things should be solved with rational manners which is what they have been doing now. Please don't be so emotional. Actually, Japan has long history and traditions, Sometimes traditions make things hard to the newcomer. But it is not impossible. A lot of US company made a success in Japan. You should listen to them if you would like to be sucessful in Japan. By the way, Apple(NeXT) is not making any crops nor super-computers. This is considerably off topic. Apple would be protected by government if they started making super-computers. Kiyoshi "David T. Wang" wrote: > > Sean Luke (seanl@cs.umd.edu) wrote: > : John De Hoog (washi@washi.nu) wrote: > > : > If you are implying that this in fact took place (i.e., that Fuji Film was > : > guilty as charged by Kodak), you are wrong. Kodak film has long been widely > : > available in every part of Japan where Kodak expended the necessary effort > : > to market it. It did not magically appear in rural shops where Kodak did not > : > make that necessary effort. Kodak has since learned this, and is now making > : > that effort, to great success. The case against Fuji was found by the WTO to > : > be without merit, which is the correct judgment to be made. > > : Having recently lived in Japan, and worked for Sony (right next to the > : headquarters in Higashigotanda, Tokyo), I should mention that it is very > : true that significant distribution barriers exist against newcomers to > : markets in Japan. And it's also true that many of those newcomers are > : American firms. But this doesn't add up to unfair business practices > : specifically practiced against America. > > : Such distribution barriers are part and parcel to Japanese business -- > : American firms involved in it are simply Yet Another Company in Japan. > : It's not an American thing really: Sony is the prototypical Firm With > : This Problem in Japan. A classic example told to me by a Sony executive: > : when Sony came out with the Sony Playstation, Sega and Nintendo had a > : near-lockhold on the distribution market. All major distributors (the key > : to getting products to the myriad of toy stores and department stores out > : there) were locked in with deals with Sega and Nintendo and refused to > : distribute Sony PlayStation CDs. People could buy the PlayStation but no > : titles. So Sony introduced a whole new distribution method: sell its > : PlayStation CDs at...get ready... 7-Eleven. 7-Eleven is omnipresent in > : Japan. With the PlayStation a huge hit, toy stores feeling the crunch > : ganged up on their distributors and forced them to distribute PlayStation > : CDs. The rest is history. > > : Not to say that there aren't unfair barriers on a country-to-country basis > : in some markets. For example, the rice situation is amazing. The Japanese > : government is weirdly controlled largely by agrarian interests, giving the > : Japanese rice lobby *enormous* leverage. Japan is a small country, with > : limited agricultural resources, so native rice ain't cheap (about ten > : times the price of rice elsewhere). So for decades the Japanese > : government openly told people that foreign rice was Bad, even going so far > : as to broadcast TV commercials in the 60s and 70s saying that foreign rice > : was filled with pesticides and rat parts. > > : Until the 1990s. A few years back, Japan had a huge rice crop failure, > : and the government was forced to take drastic measures, first trying to > : convince the Japanese people to _temporarily_ buy foreign rice, then later > : forcing Japanese rice sellers to include 10% or more foreign rice in their > : rice bags. The rice sellers got around this by selling Japanese rice bags > : with a little inner bag of foreign rice, which consumers would throw out > : when they opened the main bag! But after the crop failure, many Japanese > : learned (1) that unlike Thai and Taiwanese rice, custom-made-for-Japan > : American rice was actually pretty good, and (2) it was 1/10th the cost of > : Japanese rice, but forced to the same price as Japanese rice through huge > : tarrifs. > > : Not for long though. The WTO will soon force Japan to drop its rice > : tarrifs, and the Japanese rice industry will be decimated. > > I agreed with everything except this last statement. The Japanese > farmers are a very powerful and voting group, and they are forcing > LDP to seek all sort of measures to protect Japanese rice. Japan now > wants to go from a import quota system to a tariff system, and it would > allow an annual increase of 0.8% after 2001. (from current 8%?) At this > rate, Japanese rice industry could still be cushioned for a couple more > decades. Ofcourse WTO/US Rice won't like this, but whether it actually > happens is another story. > > : Sean > > -- > davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam > All statements are personal opinions > Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland > Kyoto, Japan.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 5 Jan 1999 10:59:18 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> Kiyoshi Shinomiya (kshinomiya@sprynet.com) wrote: : Hi, : Is this list for agriculture or government? : Japan is week in the agricultural world, therefore it needs time to : to find the way to protect their people properly. Japan's farming system is very inefficient, (and Americans, responsible for setting is up, are partly to blame apparently) Japan has had a long time to attempt to reform its farming system, but realities being what they are... (land prices are so high, and the system is against consolidation) Even if we start now, and only allowing for an 0.8% increase per annum, thing's aren't going to change any if there is no reform, and everything is produced on sub 5 acre farms. : On the other hand, US is weak in the super-computer market, thus, : they have protected them with 400% traiffs. Bleh, US is not weak in the super-computer market. What SGI/Cray charged was that NEC was selling its vector computer at below cost (dumping), thus the penalty was imposed. If American/Taiwanese/Thai Rice cost $2/Kg to produce, but they try to sell it for $1/Kg that would be dumping too. In any case, I don't much believe in the Cray/SGI charge, and I don't believe in the dumping case. 400% tariff or 1000% tariff, they're both crazy. : Doesn't these look similar? These things should be solved with : rational manners which is what they have been doing now. Please don't : be so emotional. Nope, not really similar, and I agree they should be solved in a rational manner. I'm certainly not emotional about it, perhaps if I had to interact daily with one of those farmers with the 5 acre farm I might feel differently about it, but I do not. The only way the ultra expensive rice affects me is that I don't normally purchase rice, but eat oodon instead. : Actually, Japan has long history and traditions, Sometimes traditions make : things hard to the newcomer. But it is not impossible. A lot of US company : made a success in Japan. You should listen to them if you would like to : be sucessful in Japan. I have no idea about the barriers of entry as discussed by the other gentlemen, thus I hold no opinion on them. : By the way, Apple(NeXT) is not making any crops nor super-computers. : This is considerably off topic. Apple would be protected by government : if they started making super-computers. Bleh, I'm (in principle) against protectionism, everyone should be allowed to compete fairly and equally. If SGI/Cray can actually show that it costs NEC $10 M to make a computer that it sells for $3 M, then yes, NEC should be penalized. However, if NEC makes such a computer for $2.9M, and it costs SGI/Cray $5M to make a similar product, then by all means, allow NEC to sell that computer for $3M. If Linus had remained in Norway, and decided that instead of being free, he wants to charge $5 per copy of Linux, should the US gov charge a 500% tariff to protect Microsoft? That would be kind of interesting wouldn't it? Perhaps you can set up your own senario with regards to Apple/Microsoft. : Kiyoshi : "David T. Wang" wrote: : > : > Sean Luke (seanl@cs.umd.edu) wrote: : > : Having recently lived in Japan, and worked for Sony (right next to the : > : headquarters in Higashigotanda, Tokyo), I should mention that it is very : > : true that significant distribution barriers exist against newcomers to : > : markets in Japan. And it's also true that many of those newcomers are : > : American firms. But this doesn't add up to unfair business practices : > : specifically practiced against America. : > : > : Such distribution barriers are part and parcel to Japanese business -- : > : American firms involved in it are simply Yet Another Company in Japan. : > : It's not an American thing really: Sony is the prototypical Firm With : > : This Problem in Japan. A classic example told to me by a Sony executive: : > : when Sony came out with the Sony Playstation, Sega and Nintendo had a : > : near-lockhold on the distribution market. All major distributors (the key : > : to getting products to the myriad of toy stores and department stores out : > : there) were locked in with deals with Sega and Nintendo and refused to : > : distribute Sony PlayStation CDs. People could buy the PlayStation but no : > : titles. So Sony introduced a whole new distribution method: sell its : > : PlayStation CDs at...get ready... 7-Eleven. 7-Eleven is omnipresent in : > : Japan. With the PlayStation a huge hit, toy stores feeling the crunch : > : ganged up on their distributors and forced them to distribute PlayStation : > : CDs. The rest is history. : > : > : Not to say that there aren't unfair barriers on a country-to-country basis : > : in some markets. For example, the rice situation is amazing. The Japanese : > : government is weirdly controlled largely by agrarian interests, giving the : > : Japanese rice lobby *enormous* leverage. Japan is a small country, with : > : limited agricultural resources, so native rice ain't cheap (about ten : > : times the price of rice elsewhere). So for decades the Japanese : > : government openly told people that foreign rice was Bad, even going so far : > : as to broadcast TV commercials in the 60s and 70s saying that foreign rice : > : was filled with pesticides and rat parts. : > : > : Until the 1990s. A few years back, Japan had a huge rice crop failure, : > : and the government was forced to take drastic measures, first trying to : > : convince the Japanese people to _temporarily_ buy foreign rice, then later : > : forcing Japanese rice sellers to include 10% or more foreign rice in their : > : rice bags. The rice sellers got around this by selling Japanese rice bags : > : with a little inner bag of foreign rice, which consumers would throw out : > : when they opened the main bag! But after the crop failure, many Japanese : > : learned (1) that unlike Thai and Taiwanese rice, custom-made-for-Japan : > : American rice was actually pretty good, and (2) it was 1/10th the cost of : > : Japanese rice, but forced to the same price as Japanese rice through huge : > : tarrifs. : > : > : Not for long though. The WTO will soon force Japan to drop its rice : > : tarrifs, and the Japanese rice industry will be decimated. : > : > I agreed with everything except this last statement. The Japanese : > farmers are a very powerful and voting group, and they are forcing : > LDP to seek all sort of measures to protect Japanese rice. Japan now : > wants to go from a import quota system to a tariff system, and it would : > allow an annual increase of 0.8% after 2001. (from current 8%?) At this : > rate, Japanese rice industry could still be cushioned for a couple more : > decades. Ofcourse WTO/US Rice won't like this, but whether it actually : > happens is another story. -- davewang@kagututi.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 08:29:05 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Predictions for MacWorld Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0501990829050001@wil101.dol.net> References: <76lonu$44u$1@your.mother.com> <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com> <jslewis-0501990302560001@207-172-86-29.s29.tnt6.rcm.erols.com> In article <jslewis-0501990302560001@207-172-86-29.s29.tnt6.rcm.erols.com>, jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: > In article > <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com>, > jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: > > This Prediction I'll put a small amount of money on.. > > Street legal Sony Playstation Emmulator made by Connectix and bundled > with sevral G3 configurations (including imac). Also available for $50 > aftermarket. Jobs makes splash over games. THAT would be incredibly cool. > > Possible USB/Mezinine adapters connectors for playstation equipment. > > MicroConversions Voodoo 2 mez card gets some sort of offical reconition. This I kind of doubt. Apple has been telling people not to use Mezzanine. > > Yosimity will have a mezinine slot (possibly used for internal modem) > DVD/Firewire option sold by apple for mezinine slot and iMacs. Actually, I read that the Yosemite modem was in a "mezzanine-like" slot which was more of a serial port. > Macromedia's Final cut/whatever it is now bundled. (I won't but money on > that) Yosimity will have DVD drives. > > More public alliances between MS and Apple. Stranger things behind the > scenes. Always. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:27:49 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76tei3$avl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <76oph0$4ja$5@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76r0hi$8rr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3691AE02.1D1842F9@digiscape.com> In article <3691AE02.1D1842F9@digiscape.com>, Chris Welch <chaotic42@digiscape.com> wrote: > r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote: > > > The key factor in the success of Microsoft isn't it's superior >technology, > > Yep. That's for sure. > > > but rather it's superior customer support. You can dial a 1-900 number, > > pay $35 and usually you can get a solution to your problem, > > $35 to hear 'Your problems are caused by Linux. Uninstall it'. $35 for > someone to help you fix problems in the software? 1-900? Seems like MS > makes enough money to pay for 1-800 lines. It's better than it used to be. You used to have to pay $4/minute to listen to 30 minutes of IVR prompts to get to a tier-1 operator who put you on hold for 30 minutes then connected you to a tier-2 operator who put you on hold for 30 minutes then connected you to a tier-3 operator who put you on hold for 30 minutes then told you to reboot your system. If you told him that you had already tried that, he would put you on hold for another 30 minutes, then another tier-3 operator would tell you to reinstall windows (which of course would trash the registry). If you had done that, you would be put on hold for another 30 minutes, after which you would be told that you had to reformat the hard drive, reinstall everything (you do have CD-ROMs don't you) and hope for the best. Thats 3 calls of $480, $600, and $720 - $1800 to be told that the only way to "fix" your problem was to trash everything on your system. > even if the > > problem was pirated software or the solution is to reboot your machine. > > > > However, Microsoft uses the feedback it gets from it's customer service > > lines to improve the help, context sensitive help, wizards, and other > > forms of documentation. > > If you call that troubleshooting garbage in Windows help... Who said anything about troubleshooting. They just used the input from the tier-1 calls to create wizards that made it possible for people who had no clue what they were doing - to attempt to create mission critical forcasts for Fortune 500 corporations. > > Linux has only been getting this kind of feedback (from desktop users) for > > the last 6 months, but already the support level and ease-of-learning has > > improved radically. Enough to capture 10% of the market from Microsoft. > > 10? Thought it was 2%. Where'd you hear 10 from? Microsoft sold 100 million copies of MS-Windows last year. Linux sold 4 million. Microsoft does not allow copying and has strict control through registration numbers, Linux averages 5 machines installed for each copy sold (balancing the schools who install 100 machines from a single CD and the frustrated user who never successfully installs Linux). Currently, the estimate is that Linux is outselling NT in the server market, but if NT has a lead it is because corporations need 5 NT systems to do the work of 1 equivalent Linux system. > -- > /----------------------------------------------------------\ > | http://cmwelch1.nexus.olemiss.edu | > | | > | Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. | > | Pinky: You have no idea. | > \----------------------------------------------------------/ > -- Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director http://www.open4success.com -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:52:45 +0000 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <3692435D.435DA773@mohawksoft.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <76oph0$4ja$5@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76r0hi$8rr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3691AE02.1D1842F9@digiscape.com> <76tei3$avl$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote: > > > > Linux has only been getting this kind of feedback (from desktop users) for > > > the last 6 months, but already the support level and ease-of-learning has > > > improved radically. Enough to capture 10% of the market from Microsoft. > > > > 10? Thought it was 2%. Where'd you hear 10 from? > > Microsoft sold 100 million copies of MS-Windows last year. Linux sold 4 > million. Microsoft does not allow copying and has strict control through > registration numbers, Linux averages 5 machines installed for each copy sold > (balancing the schools who install 100 machines from a single CD and the > frustrated user who never successfully installs Linux). > > Currently, the estimate is that Linux is outselling NT in the server market, > but if NT has a lead it is because corporations need 5 NT systems to do the > work of 1 equivalent Linux system. 5 Machines per copy sold for Linux? Where did you get that figure. I like your reasons, but, has there actually been research? If so I would like to get a copy of it. I am writing a proposal for an "Internet Strategy" for a company, and I, personally, do not want to administer the NT machines. Don't get me wrong, NT has its place, but, remote aministration is not a strong point. If I have enough of an argument for Linux, I think I can convince them. -- Mohawk Software Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support. Visit the Mohawk Software website: www.mohawksoft.com
Message-ID: <369245F6.951E2ACC@klassy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:03:51 -0800 From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> Organization: Klassy Soft MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76pobu$h39@news1.panix.com> <76qnam$jf5$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76rqt1$338@news1.panix.com> <76rss8$des$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jensen wrote: > <SNIP> > > Then why, when I ask a question as simple as "How many C++ IDEs does the > Microsoft Plan support?" > > Do you answer: > > "On my machine I have Delphi 1.0, Delphi 4.0, Visual Studio with C++ and > J++, JBuilder, Visual Cafe and PFE. I also have Cygnus's win32 GNU tools > and Perl." > > This list only includes one C++ IDE. > > I think you know this, but you ignore it in a dishonest fashion. > Now I would have answered.... I have Visual C++, Watcom C++, C++ Builder, Borland C++, Metrowerks C++ and IBM Power C++. <SNIP>
From: r.e.ballard@usa.net Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:01:55 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76tgi2$cqg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76h45k$ckg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76saho$11m@newsops.execpc.com> In article <76saho$11m@newsops.execpc.com>, madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading) wrote: > Stephen Edwards (ja207030@primenet.com) wrote: > : r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote: > > : [big ol' snip for brevity] > > : So, if I understand you correctly, Microsoft allegedly *ahem* "borrowed" > : some code/ideas from you/your employer... isn't there a lawsuit > : to be had here? If the allegations are true, it certainly sounds like > : grounds for a suit to me. > > But how could you prove anything? At the time, the proof I had was that I had sent the source code via Certified mail. This was back in 1982, I have since moved several times and probably lost the papers in one of the moves. The code in question included specifications for externalizing the BDOS vectors of CP/M (which was done in MS-DOS 2.x), source for a Star Schema database, and code for a user interface framework that included drop-down lists, check-boxes, radio buttons, and and scrolled lists - all in text. > Incedentally, if this story is true (and I'm not saying I believe it > just yet), then it should frighten us all w.r.t. the GPL. OSS people > have debated in the past as to whether or not the GPL could hold up > well in court if it were challenged. The FSF GPL has been challenged and successfully defended. So has the BSDL. The court honors the copyright and the intent of the copyright. The one "gotcha" is if someone intentionally or accidentally integrates proprietary copyrighted software into the GPL or BSDL product. One example was the use of regex code in BSD, which gave AT&T effective control over BSD. Until 1994 (when Novell purchased UNIX and freed BSD). > My bigger fear has always been > not whether or not the GPL is legally sound, but rather whether or > not we'd ever be able to find out it had been violated in the first > place. If a company takes OSS code and includes it in their CSS > product, then how would anybody ever know? It really depends on the nature of the code being plagerized. If someone tried to clone GNOME or EMACS, it would be pretty obvious very quickly. > After all, the product > is closed source, so you would need a court-order to be allowed to > view it, but you'd need to prove reasonable doubt before you get > that court-order, You have to establish probable cause. If you can convince the court that, based on what is visible in the user interface, or what is send over a public telecommunications link, that there is probable cause to believe that this may be the same source, you would get the court order. In addition, you could get a court-order to reverse-engineer to determine, from the binary, that this was probably a dirivative work (DW) from GPL source. Of course, you would know before getting the court order that it was a DW, the court order would simply make it possible for you to admit it as evidence. > and you would be hard pressed to provide that > reasonable doubt without the source in the first place. It's a > chicken-and-egg problem. It really isn't that hard. It's much harder to prove trade secret code has been copyrighted, because it involves disclosing trade secrets to prove that your trade secrets have been violated. It's a bit humerous that copyrighted code can also be considered a trade-secret. > Sometimes you can rely on the fear big companies have. Many large > companies are afraid to accidentally violate laws even if the > chances of getting caught are small, so they police themselves. > Not so with Microsoft. This is the biggest problem with any lawsuit in which Microsoft is the defendent. Microsoft has a formidable legal departement that will not only countersue (for damage to brand name), but will tie the suit up in motions, delays, and preliminaries until the jury perception is that the pirated software is worthless. The Jury of 1999 would have no appreciation of the value of DR-DOS in 1992. The consequential damages run into the billions, but the Jury would see this obsolete software and percieve it as worthless. > If the above story is true (IF), then it shows that MS has no qualms > about taking source offered for perusal on a friendly honor system > and plagarising it in their closed product. This would be dastardly > for OSS, since OSS code is all out there for the taking. The biggest concern here is the way Microsoft has attempted to exploit any attempt and marketing of "Branding Rights". For example, NCSA software was public License, but Spry obtained "Branding Rights" because many companies wanted to put their logo in the corner and preload the home pages and favorites. Microsoft extended "branding rights" to include total modification of the code to include ActiveX controls to support proprietary MS-Office document formats. > -- > Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings > > -- Rex Ballard - Open Source Advocate, Internet Architect, MIS Director http://www.open4success.com -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:47:55 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:45:17 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Hate to say it but they do, two iMacs for that price or damn close to it... And I am a PC guy... Bill F. Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote in message news:E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnew s.net... >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2181941,00.html > >"Compaq will offer a "Networked Home in a Box," which includes two >personal computers, color monitors and a color printer for under >$2,500." > >Apple could do that, too, and probably cheaper if it were smart. > >As it is, Corel or Acer will endup making boatloads of money using >Linux and something like KDE to create a super-cheap "Home Area >Network in a Box."
From: jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam (Jim Naylor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: 05 Jan 1999 10:09:38 PST Organization: Concentric Internet Services Message-ID: <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> In article <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net>, "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> wrote: >Hate to say it but they do, two iMacs for that price or damn close to it... > >And I am a PC guy... > > And I'm here to tell ya that my iMac has put the fun back in surfing for me, after putting up with slow machines for too long. And when I get Linux up on it, watch out! -- Jim Naylor jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam (remove the ".nospam", natch)
From: dlw@wingchun.com Subject: Re: In Your Guts You Know Steve Is Nuts Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <368BCFE1.DCC6F75B@gamewood.net> <B2B137BE-19D1B@206.165.43.73> <368d2ee9$0$19544@nntp1.ba.best.com> <Thingfishhhh-0101992227550001@ppp-207-104-158-251.wnck11.pacbell.net> Organization: Planet Wing Chun User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/2.2.7-STABLE (i386)) Date: 05 Jan 1999 19:22:15 GMT Message-ID: <36926667$0$19105@nntp1.ba.best.com> In comp.sys.next.advocacy thingfishhhh <Thingfishhhh@yahoo.com> wrote: : In article <368d2ee9$0$19544@nntp1.ba.best.com>, dlw@wingchun.com wrote: :> : Bi-polar is quite possibly the technical term for Jobs. Ornery implies that :> : he has no charisma or people skills, which obviously isn't the case. :> :> People skills? Jobs? Hahahahaha! : Do you actually *know* him, or have you met him? I know several people who I know several who worked with him at Apple in the early days, at Apple before he got booted, at NeXT--etc. : work with him, and my Dad dealt with him around the Us Festival timeframe. And yes I've seen him in person several times. Especially when he used to "fly" the NeXT and give killer demos. He is a demo god. But thats beside the point in terms of working for him. Did you ever read Kawasaki's book and comments on him? Everything I've heard from firsthand sources confirms a lot if it. :) : Everyone I've spoken to say he's quite a nice guy - you don;t want to go : into negotiations with him, or piss him off, but he can be quite charming, : pleasant, and charismatic. Try watching him give a keynote sometime. See above. : Gates, on the other hand, is THE antithesis of the : poor-social-skills-ubernerd. I've spoken to several people who have sat in : meetings with him who used the words "space alien", "rude", and "wierd". Haven't had the pleasure as some of my friends did when he would just walk into a meeting at Apple (his first time around), and proclaim that whatever they were working on was a "piece of shit" and then just walk out. :> Job's strength is he can see the potential in the technological visions :> of others and make a product. : Steve Jobs is also a natural leader and cheerleader. People produce for : him because he inspires it. Bill Gates also has/had this sort of thing Indeed. No arguments there. Its the details after the cheerleading I'm referring to. People skills isn't just being a great public speaker. : going for him when MS was smaller (well described in the book "Microserfs" : by Douglas Coupland) and seems to be losing that aura as the company : swells in size. Both men have built empires from employees who *want* to : make them happy. : It will be interesting to watch - Apple almost died when Jobs was gone, : and is booming with him back. They withered under the "suits" like Amelio. They withered under their own arrogance and never understanding what else was going on out in the marketplace. ie they became complacent on their laurels of ease of use and graphics for mass market. Look at how long they have failed to come out with a new, modern, OS. I've owned Macs since 84 till my present G3 desktop. Along with a cube and a slab. I'll have to give the iMac another once over, but it sure looked ugly to me when I saw one at Fry's the other day. But thats a whole nother discussion. :) -- David Williams mailto:dlw@wingchun.com Planet Wing Chun http://www.wingchun.com/ Bay Area Wing Chun Association http://www.thesphere.com/SJWC
Message-ID: <36925B7A.E1369DC6@klassy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:35:38 -0800 From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> Organization: Klassy Soft MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Running Linux on the iMac seems to not be a problem, however getting an input device to work (all USB ya see) is a dead end so far. PS : Aren't we having a shouting match in comp.sys.be.advocacy ? Its a small net ya know? Bill Frisbee wrote: > >And I'm here to tell ya that my iMac has put the fun back in surfing for > >me, after putting up with slow machines for too long. And when I get Linux > >up on it, watch out! > > And I just picked up my new Celeron 400a chip (helps to know people in high > places) I might be able to hit 600mhz with this puppie... > > Oh yeah and the question is not WHEN you get Linux on the iMac, it is IF you > can get it on there. I have read in lots of places the hell being caused by > the hacked up PowerBook motherboard (system board) that the iMac uses in > getting Linux up on it. > > Bill F.
Message-ID: <36925822.42AF96F4@klassy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:21:22 -0800 From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> Organization: Klassy Soft MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76pobu$h39@news1.panix.com> <76qnam$jf5$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76rqt1$338@news1.panix.com> <76rss8$des$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <369245F6.951E2ACC@klassy.com> <76tj76$bsq$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jensen wrote: > Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote: > > : > Then why, when I ask a question as simple as "How many C++ IDEs does the > : > Microsoft Plan support?" > : [...] > > : Now I would have answered.... > : I have Visual C++, Watcom C++, C++ Builder, Borland C++, Metrowerks C++ and > : IBM Power C++. > > Thanks, this does get me a bit closer to my point. I should bring you up > to date. My original statement was: > > > In the broader view there are many competing projects at all levels of > > the Linux OS, none of them of them more equal than the others. > > Sal's reply was: > : The "many competing projects at all levels" are hardly exclusive to > : Linux. Not even the drivers are exclusive anymore. The only "Linux > : project" that doesn't have the potential of benefiting the larger > : "OpenSource" community is the kernel. > > I tried to get him back on track to the original discussion: > > > We were comparing and contrasting the Microsoft Plan to the Linux Plan, > > remember? How many C++ IDEs does the Microsoft Plan support? How many > > word processors, and spreadsheets? > > > Open Source is a new phrase (and not a single word :-) which I suppose I > > should use, but I think the shorthand notation of "Linux" for everything > > that comes on my Linux CD is fair as well (until you encounter a > > net-lawyer :-). > > When Sal came back with his long list of one C++ IDE, I took that to mean > he didn't want to admit that the Microsoft Plan (as opposed to the > Microsoft Platform) only had room for one C++ IDE. Just as it has room > for one Word Processor and one Spreadsheet. > > I think the histories of the products you list illustrate my original > point. The long saga of Microsoft driving Borland from the Microsoft > Platform is a case in point. > > John This is all very true, I in no way support MS changing the MFC libs to force other standards off the desktop (I miss OWL). However I still use mostly non MS development tools becuse they are better than Visual C++.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Mac OS X Server... Message-ID: <mdtk2.5641$XY6.116820@news.san.rr.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:53:27 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:54:10 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA The announcement is that it'll be available next month. I found it notable there was no focus on ease-of-management during the Mac OS X Server segment of the keynote. No idea on Carbon, Blue Box, etc., etc. It's Mach, Apache, Web Objects, BSD, Java... Under $1000 per server (unlimited clients) --Ed.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F53ou7.Dp5@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com Organization: needs one References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:01:19 GMT In <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> "Bill Frisbee" wrote: > And I just picked up my new Celeron 400a chip (helps to know people in > high places) I might be able to hit 600mhz with this puppie... I thought the 400a was one of the first of the non-bumpable chips? Maury
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <F53ou7.Dp5@T-FCN.Net> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <nptk2.606$K12.82969@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:09:35 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:06:59 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Works fine for me. I do not see any labels on it that say it is an Engineering sample. It looks like a real retail/OEM chip but I cannot be 100% sure. Never look a gift horse in the mouth??? Bill F > I thought the 400a was one of the first of the non-bumpable chips? > >Maury >
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:29:03 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 13:26:28 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) >And I'm here to tell ya that my iMac has put the fun back in surfing for >me, after putting up with slow machines for too long. And when I get Linux >up on it, watch out! And I just picked up my new Celeron 400a chip (helps to know people in high places) I might be able to hit 600mhz with this puppie... Oh yeah and the question is not WHEN you get Linux on the iMac, it is IF you can get it on there. I have read in lots of places the hell being caused by the hacked up PowerBook motherboard (system board) that the iMac uses in getting Linux up on it. Bill F.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 20:12:33 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76trnf$n8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> <76rm0i$s0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369197E8.6FE1F841@nstar.net> <36921F85.106A463@nstar.net> In article <36921F85.106A463@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: > Michael J. Peck wrote: >> You start off by dismissing the absolutely essential contribution the GNU >> project represents towards Linux. > > What I find most laughable about this line of argument is how it > attempts to distract from what I actually said. Rather than responding > with debate to "there is a tremendous association between 'Open Source' > and 'Linux'", you claim that I am dismissing something that happened in > the past, when I have deliberately avoided discussion of the past on the > pretext that it's not relevant to the issue at hand. False. From Message-ID <349EE5EC.6D09@convex.hp.com>: On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:13:00 -0600, Michael Peck <mjpeck@convex.hp.com> wrote: : Linux is the "next great thing" that's coming out of the Linux world. : That's the only word to sum up the achievements being wrought by the : volunteering engineers who constitute it. It's a self-perpetuating : phenomenon, spawning new efforts all the time, but it keeps coming back : to Linux. That's what it is. Not GNU, not RedHat, it's Linux. ...and... : When you say "Linux" you're technically talking about an operating system, : one that was built from scratch. When you say "Rhapsody" you're talking : about a system built *on top of* BSD 4.4. The Linux project has built an : entire environment unto itself from the dust of creation, in less than a : decade, and you're asking "Where's the new stuff?" You've claimed that Linux "was built from scratch". You've claimed that the "achievements being wrought" are due to the "volunteering engineers who constitute it [Linux]" and "not GNU". More recently, you've claimed "Widespread adoption of GNU tools has taken off with the advent of stable Linux." > It's intellectually dishonest for you to avoid the clear meaning of my > statements, Yeah? You didn't write the stuff quoted with ":" above? Or are you claiming that it doesn't mean what you said? [ ... ] > I recommend to you my first posting in this thread for clarification. > > "Still, I think it's probably true that more of the population that uses > Open Source software (and knows it) gained access to it through Linux, > than through some other means. > > "That, in itself, makes Linux an important focus for those creating and > distributing Open Source software." And I recommend to you my responses since then, where I excerpted from www.opensource.com that the very term "open source" came because of the debate between the GNU Public License and Netscape's Mozilla. Or the heuristic responses from other people that they became exposed to Open Source through the GNU project years before Linux. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: bholderness@erols.remove.this.com (WIlliam Holderness) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:22:53 -0500 Organization: IMPACT Message-ID: <bholderness-0501991522530001@207-172-116-170.s43.as3.dwt.erols.com> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 1999 20:22:36 GMT In article <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net>, "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> wrote: >>And I'm here to tell ya that my iMac has put the fun back in surfing for >>me, after putting up with slow machines for too long. And when I get Linux >>up on it, watch out! > >And I just picked up my new Celeron 400a chip (helps to know people in high >places) I might be able to hit 600mhz with this puppie... > > >Oh yeah and the question is not WHEN you get Linux on the iMac, it is IF you >can get it on there. I have read in lots of places the hell being caused by >the hacked up PowerBook motherboard (system board) that the iMac uses in >getting Linux up on it. > > >Bill F. Hummm... Where did you read that, Master Frisbee? (BTW it's complete BS, as is virtually everything, in any post you make) Bill Holderness IMPACT
From: lsn95r@mira.knirsch.de (Liang-Shing Ng) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 5 Jan 1999 20:03:32 -0000 Organization: I need to put my ORGANIZATION here. Message-ID: <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> In article <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu>, David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: >Kiyoshi Shinomiya (kshinomiya@sprynet.com) wrote: > >: Hi, > >: Is this list for agriculture or government? > >: Japan is week in the agricultural world, therefore it needs time to >: to find the way to protect their people properly. > >Japan's farming system is very inefficient, (and Americans, responsible >for setting is up, are partly to blame apparently) Japan has had a >long time to attempt to reform its farming system, but realities being >what they are... (land prices are so high, and the system is against >consolidation) Even if we start now, and only allowing for an 0.8% >increase per annum, thing's aren't going to change any if there is no >reform, and everything is produced on sub 5 acre farms. Yet again, American can't seem to think of alternative paradigm to "efficiency, capitalism, efficiancy, capitalism". People has to be protected. Their jobs have to be secured.
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <bholderness-0501991522530001@207-172-116-170.s43.as3.dwt.erols.com> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <bCuk2.633$K12.85250@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:31:21 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:28:55 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Read what? That the iMac can't run Linux in its current PPC kernel? Or the fact that the iMac's system board is from a PowerBook? Linux DOES not properly support USB. Since USB was "hacked" onto the existing PowerBook motherboard for the iMac, there was no BIOS inplementation for emulating the KB as there is on the newer PCs. Argue those FACTS. Bill F. >Hummm... Where did you read that, Master Frisbee? > >(BTW it's complete BS, as is virtually everything, in any post you make) > >Bill Holderness >IMPACT
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <F53ou7.Dp5@T-FCN.Net> <nptk2.606$K12.82969@news.shore.net> <36926C94.2C30EAA2@ericsson.com> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <Pzuk2.632$K12.85228@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:28:49 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:26:23 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) I know what he is talking about. But Engineering Samples usually don't have even clock multiplier restrictions on them for testing in motherboards at the higher clock speeds which is why new motherboards will have some settings for ungodly clocks. Also there are two possibilities for this "chip" a BIOS on the CPU itself or just a "auto-detection" circut. Bill F. >Maury's talking about Intel's new on-chip circuit which will check the >bus speed to ensure that overclocking is not being done. If an improper >bus speed is being used with these newer processors, the CPU will not >run. > >The answer to Maury's question is: no. The overclock-disabled chips are >not expected until sometime in the second half of 1999. > >MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:45:10 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369279D6.76D6740D@ericsson.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> <76rm0i$s0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369197E8.6FE1F841@nstar.net> <36921F85.106A463@nstar.net> <76trnf$n8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: > You've claimed that Linux "was built from scratch". And the kernel was, indeed, built from scratch. > You've claimed that the "achievements being wrought" are due to the > "volunteering engineers who constitute it [Linux]" and "not GNU". You've just juxtaposed quoted words that were originally three sentences from each other, in the attempt to portray something I never said. Don't make this worse, Chuck, you're making a spectacle of yourself. > More recently, you've claimed "Widespread adoption of GNU tools has taken off > with the advent of stable Linux." Yes, I have. > Yeah? You didn't write the stuff quoted with ":" above? > Or are you claiming that it doesn't mean what you said? It certainly doesn't mean what you tried to make it mean, with your shoddy cut-up job and silly attempts to paint my remarks in skewed and dishonest ways. Was your degree in journalism, by any chance? That might explain many things. > And I recommend to you my responses since then, where I excerpted from > www.opensource.com that the very term "open source" came because of the > debate between the GNU Public License and Netscape's Mozilla. And that is supposed to demonstrate what? > Or the > heuristic responses from other people that they became exposed to Open Source > through the GNU project years before Linux. As I asked Arun, how many? More or less than 9 million, Chuck? Oh, please, do answer that. I'd love to see something resembling *fact* or *argument* from you. Remember, for my "order of magnitude" claim to hold true, you need only demonstrate plausibly that ~1 million people used Open Source software without using Linux. I don't know, maybe that's the case. Run along now, and get thee to some facts... Or you could just quote increasingly old postings out of DejaNews. It must've taken you some time to work your way back to that Dec 97 posting. Nothing more recent than that to work from? Reminds me of that "MJP Predicts Carbon" thread Sal Denaro was trying to pawn off a few months back... MJP
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <bholderness-0501991522530001@207-172-116-170.s43.as3.dwt.erols.com> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <vEuk2.635$K12.85463@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:33:49 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:31:23 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) I thought you *PLONKED* me anyways a few weeks ago... does that make you full of BS too? Bill F. >(BTW it's complete BS, as is virtually everything, in any post you make) > >Bill Holderness >IMPACT
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Predictions for MacWorld Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:57:29 -0800 References: <76lonu$44u$1@your.mother.com> <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com> <jslewis-0501990302560001@207-172-86-29.s29.tnt6.rcm.erols.com> <joe.ragosta-0501990829050001@wil101.dol.net> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-0501991157290001@sdn-ar-001casbarp245.dialsprint.net> In article <joe.ragosta-0501990829050001@wil101.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > In article > <jslewis-0501990302560001@207-172-86-29.s29.tnt6.rcm.erols.com>, > jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: > > > In article > > <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com>, > > jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: > > > > This Prediction I'll put a small amount of money on.. > > > > Street legal Sony Playstation Emmulator made by Connectix and bundled > > with sevral G3 configurations (including imac). Also available for $50 > > aftermarket. Jobs makes splash over games. > > THAT would be incredibly cool. From the guy who hates games? Note that Jobs appeared with Carmack, which is great news for us mac gamers. Gave a list of pc games coming to the mac, unfortunately half life wasnt listed :( And his prediction came true, but of course it was already given in the web sites before he made the predictions > > > > Possible USB/Mezinine adapters connectors for playstation equipment. > > > > MicroConversions Voodoo 2 mez card gets some sort of offical reconition. > > This I kind of doubt. Apple has been telling people not to use Mezzanine. Well, remember Apple DID change their position on this and say that the imac voodoo 2 card presents NO warranty issues. > > > > Yosimity will have a mezinine slot (possibly used for internal modem) > > DVD/Firewire option sold by apple for mezinine slot and iMacs. > > Actually, I read that the Yosemite modem was in a "mezzanine-like" slot > which was more of a serial port. > > > Macromedia's Final cut/whatever it is now bundled. (I won't but money on > > that) Yosimity will have DVD drives. > > > > More public alliances between MS and Apple. Stranger things behind the > > scenes. > > Always. Good things so far: quake 2 for the mac, and carmack SOLIDLY behind apple sony playstation emmulator yosemite systems Bad things: New imac is introduced, but only with a 266 processor. Damn penny pinching Apple
From: candlish@inetarena.com (John Candlish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Mac OS X available for Intel? Date: 5 Jan 1999 13:29:56 -0800 Organization: A Red Hat Commercial Linux Site Message-ID: <76u08k$tgc@inetarena.com> There was no mention of Intel processors in the System Requirements section of the Press Release. Also, it looks as if the price just doubled from what had been available through the Developer Connection. jCandlish .
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSX Server price Date: 5 Jan 1999 15:50:50 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 1999 20:51:01 GMT In article <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris Black) wrote: > Steve Jobs was quoted today as saying, OSX server (Rhapsody) will sell > for "$995 per server copy". Wow! I'm gonna be rich when I collect my > bets! :) I too am surprised that it was priced that high, though I did expect it would be fairly expensive. I can't help but worry: if OS X is going to be the new consumer OS, how are they going to cripple it compared to OS X Server to justify the price difference? If I can't get a NEXTSTEP-level experience at consumer-level prices, I'm going to be very unhappy. (To the point of finally switching to Linux, maybe, depending on the Unix availability in OS X.) (Sorry to put a damper on all the rest of the good news, like the gaming stuff and the fact that OS X Server is going to ship.)
Message-ID: <36921F85.106A463@nstar.net> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 08:19:49 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> <76rm0i$s0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369197E8.6FE1F841@nstar.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael J. Peck wrote: > > Charles Swiger wrote: [cut] > > > and consequently there is a tremendous association between "Open Source" > > > and "Linux". This should not be surprising to anyone. > > > > What a surprise. > > > > You start off by dismissing the absolutely essential contribution the GNU > > project represents towards Linux. What I find most laughable about this line of argument is how it attempts to distract from what I actually said. Rather than responding with debate to "there is a tremendous association between 'Open Source' and 'Linux'", you claim that I am dismissing something that happened in the past, when I have deliberately avoided discussion of the past on the pretext that it's not relevant to the issue at hand. It's intellectually dishonest for you to avoid the clear meaning of my statements, instead opting to vent your personal frustrations and disinclinations. Nevertheless, all of your sound and fury avails you little, for my statements are clear and meaningful. Consider the following representative Web page quote, upon which I happened this morning: "Welcome to my home page, my name is Mikael Aronsson and I am developing a modeler/raytracer for 3D images called MagicLight, if you have any questions about this project send me an email. "The goal with MagicLight is to develop a powerfull FREE (GPL) portable modeling and rendering package for Linux and Windows, it will have a powerfull and easy to use modeler (heard that one before ?), a high quality output renderer and good support for animation." </quote> You will note, of course, that it's a "modeling and rendering package for Linux and Windows". My first question was "if it's distributed under GPL, why not say it's for Unix and Windows?" And of course the article on http://www.opengl.org which highlights MagicLight says "MagicLight is an in-development portable OpenGL-based 3D modeler and raytracer for unix (Linux) and Windows..." </quote> I recommend to you my first posting in this thread for clarification. "Still, I think it's probably true that more of the population that uses Open Source software (and knows it) gained access to it through Linux, than through some other means. "That, in itself, makes Linux an important focus for those creating and distributing Open Source software." [cut] MJP
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSX Server price Date: 5 Jan 1999 16:06:21 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <76tusd$odd$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net> <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jan 1999 21:06:38 GMT In article <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > I can't help but worry: if OS X is going to > be the new consumer OS, how are they going to cripple it compared to OS X > Server to justify the price difference? After further research, one possibility is WebObjects. It's not quite clear to me, but it sounds like it may ship with OS X Server.
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSX Server price Date: 5 Jan 1999 21:40:30 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Message-ID: <76u0se$dpg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> References: <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net> <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com> <joe.ragosta-0501991608040001@wil124.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung In article <joe.ragosta-0501991608040001@wil124.dol.net>, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >In article <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >WebObjects alone used to be thousands of dollars. It's now included with >unlimited site licenses for $995. Anyone doing serious server work would >pay that premium over Mac OS X (say, $99) even if there were _no_ other >differences. Don't think they'll price OS X Consumer that low; I expect a price of $250-400 (three tier pricing scheme). -- -Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre - Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL] - http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html -Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server... Message-ID: <Hb5qX5x6SN0c@cc.usu.edu> From: root@127.0.0.1 Date: 5 Jan 99 13:06:47 MDT References: <mdtk2.5641$XY6.116820@news.san.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <mdtk2.5641$XY6.116820@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote: > The announcement is that it'll be available next month. > > I found it notable there was no focus on ease-of-management during the Mac > OS X Server segment of the keynote. > > No idea on Carbon, Blue Box, etc., etc. > > It's Mach, Apache, Web Objects, BSD, Java... > > Under $1000 per server (unlimited clients) > > --Ed. Does that price include the development tools?
#################################################################### From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server... Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <mdtk2.5641$XY6.116820@news.san.rr.com> <Hb5qX5x6SN0c@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <36928aa2.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 5 Jan 99 21:56:50 GMT I notice that there was no mention of Intel. rticle <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de>, lsn95r@mira.knirsch.de (Liang-Shing Ng) wrote: > People has to be protected. Their jobs have to be secured. You are way off base here. Japan has no land to waste on growing food yet they do. Why? As for peaples jobs ....well Whose jobs. The needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few. The farmers make the food more expensive and thus put an undue burden on the city dwellers who do not get a free ride. Peter
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Predictions for MacWorld Message-ID: <rbarris-0501991342310001@192.168.1.16> References: <76lonu$44u$1@your.mother.com> <jslewis-0401990042180001@207-172-244-99.s99.tnt4.rcm.erols.com> <jslewis-0501990302560001@207-172-86-29.s29.tnt6.rcm.erols.com> <joe.ragosta-0501990829050001@wil101.dol.net> <macghod-0501991157290001@sdn-ar-001casbarp245.dialsprint.net> <rbarris-0501991241460001@192.168.1.16> <36927D26.F254A43C@ericsson.com> Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc. Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:40:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 13:40:49 PDT In article <36927D26.F254A43C@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Rob Barris wrote: > > > > New imac is introduced, but only with a 266 processor. Damn penny > > > pinching Apple > > > > Which would you prefer, a 300MHz model at $1299 or the 266MHz model at $1199? > > How about a choice? D'oh! It's Apple! TDBO Rob
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:23:25 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> On 05 Jan 1999 10:09:38 PST, Jim Naylor <jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam> wrote: >In article <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net>, "Bill Frisbee" ><bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> wrote: > >>Hate to say it but they do, two iMacs for that price or damn close to it... >> >>And I am a PC guy... >> >> >And I'm here to tell ya that my iMac has put the fun back in surfing for >me, after putting up with slow machines for too long. And when I get Linux >up on it, watch out! A 'smoking' CPU and a nifty case isn't going to do squat for the prime cause of slow surfing: a slow modem. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:01:33 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSX Server price Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0501991701330001@wil119.dol.net> References: <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net> <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com> <joe.ragosta-0501991608040001@wil124.dol.net> <76u0se$dpg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> In article <76u0se$dpg$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>, gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) wrote: > In article <joe.ragosta-0501991608040001@wil124.dol.net>, > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > >In article <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > > >WebObjects alone used to be thousands of dollars. It's now included with > >unlimited site licenses for $995. Anyone doing serious server work would > >pay that premium over Mac OS X (say, $99) even if there were _no_ other > >differences. > > Don't think they'll price OS X Consumer that low; I expect a price > of $250-400 (three tier pricing scheme). Maybe. That would be strange, though, since Mac OS X will eventually be replacing Mac OS. Every version of Mac OS seems to be at $89 to $99. I'll be disappointed if it's that high. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:25:09 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-0501990925090001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> In article <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com>, Kiyoshi Shinomiya <kshinomiya@sprynet.com> wrote: > > Is this list for agriculture or government? > > Japan is week in the agricultural world, therefore it needs time to > to find the way to protect their people properly. Weak, c'mon get real. The Japaneese have no land for agriculture. That is the problem with Japan's agricultre in a nut shell. The output of all japaneese farmers does not rival what could be produced out of one state in the US. For example North Carolina could easily produce as much food as all of Japan. The problem is that the rice the americans grow is not the prefered rice of Japaneese...so the Japanese government says but from discusions that I have had with my freinds who are japanese and live in Japan say that they could care less if it is short grain sweet rice or long grain...THEY just want cheaper rice. > > On the other hand, US is weak in the super-computer market, thus, > they have protected them with 400% traiffs. You are quite mistaken here. The American super computer market is quite strong. Buit due to the fact that supercomputers are "specialty items" there is not a lot of need for many manufactures. Currently SGI, IBM and to a lesser extent Sun are the only american makers of superomputers. NEC and others have been DUMPING supercomputers onto the US market becuase they can not sell enough in Japan to warrant the development. They are selling supercomputers for less than the cost of production so americans are having to SUBSIDIZE the Japanese Supercomputer development. > > Doesn't these look similar? These things should be solved with > rational manners which is what they have been doing now. Please don't > be so emotional. Who is getting emotional. The tariffs may appear to hurt american farmers but since american farmers are not selling in Japan in the first place, there is no money lost just potential profits. The peaple that are gettting screwed are the Japanese that are not farmers. The japanese peaple are paying outrageous prices to support/subsidize a VERY SMALL portion(<2%) of the total work force. It is the 98% of the japanese that are not farmers that are getting screwed by the japanese government. > > Actually, Japan has long history and traditions, Sometimes traditions make > things hard to the newcomer. But it is not impossible. A lot of US company > made a success in Japan. You should listen to them if you would like to > be sucessful in Japan. All nations have traditions and histories. As a greek I can say that our traditions and history is as long if not longer than the Japanese. But we do not let that get in the way of feeding our peaple the most efficient way. Whether you want want to admit it or not Japan is a country that is COMPLETELY DEPENDANT ON THE IMPORT OF RAW MATERIALS AND FOOD. For you to imply that it is tradition that causes the government to tax some of the goods more than others is simply insulting. Politics and politics alone is the reason that food and certain other goods are taxed the way they are. Peter
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <bholderness-0501991522530001@207-172-116-170.s43.as3.dwt.erols.com> <bCuk2.633$K12.85250@news.shore.net> <rbarrisF53xDy.8GL@netcom.com> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <Ngwk2.658$K12.88916@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:25:04 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:22:37 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) But the USB support is not fully there. Read the linux newsgroups and the LinuxPPC newsgroup. There are a lot of problems, like the USB going into powersaving mode and not waking up, Sticky keys and worse of all, conflicts. I Bill F. > >I did, in a post titled "Linux on the iMac" or words to that effect. > >By the way, you guys should have a look at www.linuxppc.org/iMac/. >Explicit mention is made of the usbmouse driver, and the fact that the >LED's aren't working on the keyboard yet (implicitly, the rest of the >keyboard support is working). > >Rob > >
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:36:38 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76u45m$vfc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <76r50l$csv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36915CE4.B8726932@ericsson.com> In article <36915CE4.B8726932@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Charles Swiger wrote: >> I didn't say he was; I deliberately did not direct my comments towards >> either John or you, for that matter. > > Ah, just a voice in the wind... While the two of you exhibit the problem, you're far from alone in doing so. >> I disagree. Linux is one factor that has been massively publicized-- >> excessively so, and often without the pro-Linux crowd giving due credit to >> earlier work. > > Oh. So that's the real problem. Exactly. [ ... ] >> Again, I regard such a claim as not giving due credit to the GNU project for >> gcc, gdb, emacs, the GNU C library, and the rest of the GNU tools. >> Obviously, I agree with those people who regard Linux as Linux/GNU. > > Well, of course. From your point of view, Open Source isn't about giving > software away, it's about keeping people from "stealing" it. "Stealing" > software, "stealing" ideas, "stealing" credit. Open Source is not about giving software away, no-- that's what some call "gratis". Open Source is about "libre", the freedom to share ideas and have a community of people able to improve, modify, adapt software as they please without the restrictions and limitations often found with closed projects. I believe in authorship and intellectual property. And yes, I very strongly object to people stealing credit for other's work. It's my opinion that giving credit for other's work is important to open source efforts. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:35:32 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <76u43k$v6v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <36908a34.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <76rnch$tbd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36919929.7E6BB778@nstar.net> In article <36919929.7E6BB778@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: > Charles Swiger wrote: [cut] >> Because then you get charming gems like: >> >> Person #1: "I want YB for Linux. Apple isn't supporting open source efforts >> because they haven't ported YB to Linux." > > I searched DejaNews for the phrase "open source efforts", with 29 > matches. Two had my name attached to them. Neither posting contained the > above quote. I was paraphrasing an exchange made earlier. Since I didn't want to go through the effort of actually looking up the articles, providing message ID's, I chose to not make a specific attribution for these quotes. >> Person #2: "That isn't true. Apple's using stuff from OpenBSD and GNU, been >> exchanging ideas, and have made lots of their source available back to the >> community. They are working with open source." >> >> Person #1: "That's completely irrelevant because we were talking about >> _Linux_!" >> >> Note the obvious presumption that GNU and the other open source BSD Unixes >> are second-class members of the Open Source community. Such arguments from >> MJP^H^H^H Person #1 need to be exposed and corrected. > > Considering that neither "Person #1" statement was made by me, > Chuck^H^H^H^H^H someone needs to explain why they're resorting to false > attributions to make an increasingly desperate and groundless argument. Sigh. After a painful session causing DejaNews' search engine to fail again and again...Message ID <368BCBAB.FC9FEB1A@nstar.net>: :>c hand wrote: :> I don't understand what you mean here, Michael. Apple is participating with :> the BSD groups. They've been quite open and cooperative about sharing code :> with them. : :What I mean is "What is your point?" I think that was pretty clear. I :never asked for Apple to "participate with the BSD groups". I think it's :great and we should all have a big party to celebrate. But it does :nothing to address the issue at hand. If you're going to blunt "Apple :should port YB to Linux" with "Apple cooperates with the BSD groups", I :have no idea what your point may be. Since DejaNews' backwards threading sucks, I haven't bothered to search down the precessors, but anyone who cares can follow the references themselves and judge whether my paraphrases were a fair summary. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <nhwk2.659$K12.88561@news.shore.net> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:25:42 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:23:15 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Which is why I have two cable modems... Bill F. > A 'smoking' CPU and a nifty case isn't going to do squat > for the prime cause of slow surfing: a slow modem. > > >-- > Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats > >Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| >is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ >as soon as your grip slips. > > In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSX Server price Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:27:06 -0500 Organization: I say screw it! Message-ID: <kms-0501991727070001@336dialup144.ncounty.net> References: <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net> <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com> In article <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: >In article <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris Black) wrote: > >> Steve Jobs was quoted today as saying, OSX server (Rhapsody) will sell >> for "$995 per server copy". Wow! I'm gonna be rich when I collect my >> bets! :) > >I too am surprised that it was priced that high, though I did expect it >would be fairly expensive. I can't help but worry: if OS X is going to >be the new consumer OS, how are they going to cripple it compared to OS X >Server to justify the price difference? If I can't get a NEXTSTEP-level >experience at consumer-level prices, I'm going to be very unhappy. >(To the point of finally switching to Linux, maybe, depending on the >Unix availability in OS X.) I wouldn't call it "crippling" (not the slightest bit), but the simple removal of WebObjects and the other dev tools should reduce the price drastically. Doesn't WebObjects already retail for *more* than $995 bucks? -- ----------------------- kms@norfolk-county.com kmsmac on AIM ICQ #9251405
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:38:27 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn795533.lc8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <76lp6n$64@news1.panix.com> <915370129snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76trsv$nim$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On Tue, 05 Jan 1999 20:15:29 GMT, BOB@hughesm.force9.net <BOB@hughesm.force9.net> wrote: >Big difference between someone who buys a system, and continues to buy >software for it and someone who buys (or begs/borrows/steals) a CD, installs >the software on it alongside their "proper" system to mess about with in the >hope of "learning unix". > >And Linux software? > >WHAT LINUX SOFTWARE? > >Applixware, Staroffice and... What exactly? Excluding freeware/GPL stuff/stuff >that doesn't work..? > >Most linux I know of being used is being used for the PURPOSE of web serving, >or other stuff that can be accomplished with freeware. This isn't what you'd >call a market. Certainly not if you were a serious software company. ...or just the tasks that home computers have always been used for... board hopping, word processing, games, the occasional toy db app & so forth... > >Hmm. > >my two$. > >In article <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: >> In article <915370129snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, >> philh@vision25.demon.co.uk wrote: >> > In article <76lp6n$64@news1.panix.com> sal@panix.com "Sal Denaro" writes: >> > > On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:09:05 -0800, >> > > c hand <ch3@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> wrote: >> > > >Don't bet on it. I'd say that the Linux software market generates >> somewhere >> > > >south of $60 million, if that. Which would put WebObjects at a much higher >> > > >revenue point. >> > > >> > > The "Linux Market" is a lot bigger than the "Linux software market" >> > >> > Last year I spent about $100 on Linux software, and approximately another >> > $100 on books describing Open Source software. There are reputedly about >> > 10 million Linux users. $200 times 10 million is $2bn. >> >> I would like to know how the 10 million users figure is reached. I know a few >> people who bought Linux CDs to try it because it is so cheap, then deleted it >> and forgot about it after a week or two. Are they being counted? >> >> Jim >> >> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own >> > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSX Server price Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:30:22 -0800 Organization: Graves Associates Message-ID: <gmgraves-0601992330230001@sj-pm6-22-246.dialup.slip.net> References: <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net> <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com> <3693a71a.0@news.provo.novell.com> In article <3693a71a.0@news.provo.novell.com>, "Kristopher Magnusson" <kmagnusson@novell.com> wrote: >Nathan Urban wrote in message <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com>... >>In article <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris >Black) wrote: >> >>> Steve Jobs was quoted today as saying, OSX server (Rhapsody) will sell >>> for "$995 per server copy". Wow! I'm gonna be rich when I collect my >>> bets! :) >> >>I too am surprised that it was priced that high, though I did expect it >>would be fairly expensive. I can't help but worry: if OS X is going to >>be the new consumer OS, how are they going to cripple it compared to OS X >>Server to justify the price difference? If I can't get a NEXTSTEP-level >>experience at consumer-level prices, I'm going to be very unhappy. >>(To the point of finally switching to Linux, maybe, depending on the >>Unix availability in OS X.) >> >>(Sorry to put a damper on all the rest of the good news, like the gaming >>stuff and the fact that OS X Server is going to ship.) > >Sometimes software companies price a product high initially to gain higher >margins from people who really need it at that price. Then they lower the >price iteratively to hit everyone else's price point in the market. This >usually happens quickly if the demand for a product is highly elastic. >However, I doubt this will happen, since OS X Server will be a must-have for >most Mac shops who have been hobbled with crummy server products for Macs >and other server products that don't fit in as well in Mac shops cost more >to operate if lots of clients are connecting. This means low elasticity of >demand, therefore a more-or-less stable price (if Apple managers are >rational price-setters, of course). The OSX-Server disk has Web-Objects bundled with it. THAT'S why its so expensive. -- George Graves
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:45:23 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <771s72$an6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76pobu$h39@news1.panix.com> <76qnam$jf5$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76rqt1$338@news1.panix.com> <76rss8$des$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <369245F6.951E2ACC@klassy.com> <76tj76$bsq$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36925822.42AF96F4@klassy.com> In article <36925822.42AF96F4@klassy.com>, Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote: > > I think the histories of the products you list illustrate my original > > point. The long saga of Microsoft driving Borland from the Microsoft > > Platform is a case in point. > > > > John > > This is all very true, I in no way support MS changing the MFC libs to force > other standards off the desktop (I miss OWL). However I still use mostly non > MS development tools becuse they are better than Visual C++. I think that part of the reason that Borland C++ failed is because it is even more poorly engineered than Visual C++. The documentation and support also sucked. Also, I can't believe you like OWL. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Organization: Is a sign of weakness Distribution: world Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> Date: 7 Jan 99 01:02:41 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 01:59:35 PDT Well, this evening I attended the YellowBox BOF at MacWorld, somewhat against my better judgement. I figured that things were going very well, and all I was likely to hear was innuendo and the like from people who didn't really know the score, stuff that really wouldn't help me and the company I'm involved with make decisions for the coming year. Instead, I found out that, in spite of myself, I've been egregiously optimistic all these years. You know the refrain, "Yeah, what NeXT just did was stupid, but maybe they'll pull something off doing XxxxXXxxX." Rooting for the underdog, you know. This evening, I found out that there is no gold at the end of _this_ particular rainbow. I'm not going to share any of the info, because it doesn't make any difference, and I'm still having trouble dealing with it myself. [Besides, I'm hoping that it was all a big mistake.] As of yet, I have no idea whether I'll be sticking around. After all, _every_ technical leg of my company's strategy has been cut out from under it. I suppose it's better to _know_ how you stand, though, now we can make decisions on going with straight Windows with clear minds. After the last three years of forging forward in spite of the lack of solid info on OpenStep/YellowBox, even _I_ was getting tired of not getting anywhere. I mean, OpenStep/NT was perfect for us in theory, but the affordable runtime availability was always _just_ over the horizon, and now it's not even _that_ close. If we had just converted to C++ or Java from the get-go, we'd have been done long ago and be able to deploy _today_, rather than at some indeterminate future point. Perhaps the MacOS X market would be perfect for us, but who cares? We can't afford to continue making business plans based on it. For me, personally, this evening marked the end of the NeXT era. Reality finally overbalanced the wishful thinking. Perhaps my new career will be involved with MacOS X Server, but I'll no longer consider it an inheritor of the NeXTSTEP mantle (that being everything and everybody still hanging like a haze around the old NeXTSTEP reality distortion field). Perhaps MacOS X Server will do great things for the MacOS market - but I never set out to be a Mac developer, and if there's no NeXTSTEP-like advantage to MacOS X Server, then what's the point of hanging around? Though I'll have to admit that having your sunk costs made worthless in no uncertain terms _does_ promote a certain clarity... -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Message-ID: <3694868B.577342E@nstar.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:03:55 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76pobu$h39@news1.panix.com> <76qnam$jf5$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76rqt1$338@news1.panix.com> <76rss8$des$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76u6d8$klm@news1.panix.com> <76u8j3$317$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7712k4$gkr@news1.panix.com> <77169m$8rg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36944149.30F33576@nstar.net> <771kl9$lrd@news1.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sal Denaro wrote: > Your posts are a pretty clear indication that you lack any and all distinction > between "advocacy" and "zealotry"; as well as a more general lack of respect > for the opinions of others. No, as I've explained on multiple occasions, I have no lack of respect for the opinions of others, it's lack of respect for *you*. It's not surprising that you'd attempt to deflect that with the above remarks, but there it is, I've said it many times and I'll say it again if you need it. MJP
From: smh@netserv.com (Scott M. Hinnrichs) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server... Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 02:53:09 -0800 Organization: NetServices Message-ID: <smh-0701990253090001@smh.ipac.net> References: <mdtk2.5641$XY6.116820@news.san.rr.com> <7700es$35c@crcnis3.unl.edu> <joe.ragosta-0601991130480001@wil100.dol.net> <77150v$sfn$5@hecate.umd.edu> <369428ff.0@news.depaul.edu> In article <369428ff.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote: > In comp.sys.next.advocacy David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: > > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: > > : In article <7700es$35c@crcnis3.unl.edu>, 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh > > : Hesse) wrote: > > > : > So, it is safe to assume that Steve made a slip of the tounge when > > : > he said "Intel" when refering to suppliers of G3 chips? > > : > We were assuming he meant to say IBM. > > > : Pretty safe bet. But who knows? > > > Well, Intel doesn't have a license to manufacture PPC's, so.... > > Alpha, StrongArm, Pentium X's, sure, but PPC designs are the IP of > > IBM/Motorola. > > Perhaps Jobs was playing with the heads of the folks who hacked > MacWeek and MacWorld. Yup, that is what I thought it was in reference to also :) Steve had to throw a bone to the hackers, so they would stop frothing and let the servers stay up ;) Or, Steve coulda just f*cked up ;) Scott
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:27:37 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p119.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <915673553.633236@newsvl21> <773lm2$70m$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 14:27:33 GMT Uli Zappe wrote: > piers@ilink.de wrote: > > Exactly. And MOSXS != Openstep. For me it's more like this: > > MOSXS = Openstep > > + the long overdue update to the Unix layer > > + tons of added features throughout all object libraries > > + QuickTime > > + the complete development environment > > + EOF > > + WebObjects > > + (hopefully) BlueBox > > > > What else could one want? > > The NEXTSTEP user interface and the ability to run on hardware without > kindergarten aesthetics? > > -- > > Bye > Uli > Well, each to his own standards I guess. I've programmed and used mainframes, minis and to some extent micros since 1962 when COBOL wasn't yet ready for prime time, so I guess I'm not a computer wimp. When I saw the Mac in 1984 I had this wave of recognition that this was how we should be interfacing with computers and anything short of this was unacceptable. I'm willing to accept an imperfect UI starting in February because I've been waiting far too long already for a fully modern OS and a fully modern development environment , and in the knowledge that by the end of the year Apple should have the rest of the peices in place. By the rest of the peices I don't mean carbon apps, because I will have new "favourite" apps by then, what I mean is an acceptable modern UI. What I see here is people wanting to hang on to an obsolete past: old-style user interfaces, a programming language that no one else uses, and cisc hardware that should have reached the end of its useful life years ago were it not for the fact that Intel has gobs of money to spend keeping it on life-support. Michael Monner
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Date: 8 Jan 1999 09:44:21 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7755k5$tv$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <915673553.633236@newsvl21> <773lm2$70m$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 14:44:31 GMT In article <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote: > What I see here is people wanting to hang on to an obsolete past: > old-style user interfaces, a programming language that no one else uses, > and cisc hardware that should have reached the end of its useful life > years ago were it not for the fact that Intel has gobs of money to spend > keeping it on life-support. Ah, the old "newer is better" argument. If that were true, then Windows would be immensely superior to Unix. "Old-style user interfaces": We like them better. They're simple, minimal, elegant, functional, and with attention to detail. Many NeXT users are former Mac users who preferred the NeXT way of doing things. "Programming language that no one else uses": I don't know about you, but as a developer, the programming language I choose is _the one that allows me to get my job done the best_, not the "language du jour". C++ ain't it. Java might get there eventually but it's not there now, and there's reason to believe that it may not ever have some of the best features of Objective-C (e.g., forwarding, categories). (It's horrible trying to cope with an OOP language without categories if you don't have full access to the source code to all libraries your app might use, believe me. And without forwarding, you can throw any simple distributed objects system out the window.) "CISC hardware that should have reached the end of its useful life": The fact of the matter is that, for whatever reason, many people _have_ PCs and can't afford to upgrade in the near future. Furthermore, they can't always give up their PCs, because as much as they might like to use a Mac, some things are only available on Windows. Finally, it's nearly impossible to get MIS at most companies to buy Mac anymore just because of their perception of Apple, but it _might_ be possible to convince them to buy just the much less expensive operating system running on Intel hardware, especially for evaluation purposes "to get Apple's foot in the door" without requiring a whole hardware investment. (A PC evaluation in the present can lead to a Mac purchase in the future, but it probably won't happen if people can't try the OS out on their existing PCs.) Not to mention the fact that although Mac hardware is nice, some people simply prefer PC hardware for numerous reasons I'm not going to start a flame war over.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F58zEF.85t@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: suvidya@tendlrow.tta.ten.mirror_after_at Organization: needs one References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <F53ou7.Dp5@T-FCN.Net> <suvidya-0701992347310001@4.newark-15-20rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:37:27 GMT In <suvidya-0701992347310001@4.newark-15-20rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> Arun Gupta wrote: > Besides the new form factor the Celeron now also comes with two new clock > frequencies: 366 and 400 MHz. Like its predecessors it works with an > external > clock of 66 MHz in both versions, and it also features an overclocking > protection in form of a hardwired multiplicator. If you were lucky like > us and were able to get your hands on a pre-series model without > overclocking > protection (Q960E), you could take a sneak preview at the Celeron models > to be expected in the upcoming months. Thought so. Mike, do you know if the specs you have are for one of the pre-run models? I'm pretty sure the original poster _was_ using a pre-run chip. Maury
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <3692ad42.0@news.depaul.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan7135206@slave.doubleu.com> Message-ID: <iPpl2.469$S02.7477@homer.alpha.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:50:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:50:38 CDT Scott Hess (scott@nospam.doubleu.com) wrote: : For _me_, wearing my hobbiest-programmer hat, it doesn't make a : difference. For me, wearing my high-paid consultant hat, this : decision on Apple's part makes me look like a fool for making business : decisions based on Apple's stated future plans. We all take risks, you can't have success without taking a risk. I bought a SWTPC computer about 1979, an Atari in 1987, and a Next computer in 1991. So much for trying swim against the tide. I am cautious about stock market investing. I wasn't foolish enough to invest in Amazon.com. And, I sold my Chrysler stock long before they got gobbled up by Daimler. I agree that Apple should make an Intel version of Mac OS X. The primary reason is to show that the operating system hasn't become hardware dependent. The PowerPC chip could have better performance than the Pentium ?, but new technology may obsolete both processors. Ron
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: giddings@nospam.genetics.utah.edu Organization: needs one References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:02:20 GMT In <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in support > of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. Hmmm, seems one needs to re-read the mythical man month! Maury rictions until a paid license code was obtained. For example, WriteUp and PasteUp would refuse to save or print until you entered a good license key, but otherwise they would do everything they are documented to do. >Whats wrong with developers producing a commercial bundle, >independently of what Apple does? How are they supposed to find the customers? At least when Apple ships a CDROM with a bunch of sample apps, they (1) establish a belief that they are soliciting application support for the OS, which should encourage other developers; and (2) help current developers to seed the market after three verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry dry years. It would cost Apple an extra 50 cents in the distribution media, and return a world of potential good. >Come February or so I'm in the market for at least PasteUp, >WriteUp, Mesa, Tiffany and Create to use on my Mac as long as >I don't have to break the bank and as long as they are going to be >supported. Any developers who are so attached to not buying Macs >that they are going to abandon their products please let me know >before I do anything foolish. In all honesty, Apple has not left much a decision. Not shipping a Third Party Solutions CD that Apple had *actively* *solicited* as recently as September is tantamount to saying "We've decided YB is not going to be a horizontal application platform." Coupled with the non-consumer level of pricing, I expect most older developers will decide not to fight city hall any longer. Every recent decision seems calculated to flush the few remaining YB developers so no one will be standing to compete with their new Best Buddies from Redmond when the consumer version ships. "Kill the baby," indeed. I understand why it is being done from a business perspective, but I hope my friends inside NeXT/Apple feel ashamed about what has happened. Greg
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F590oJ.95s@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com Organization: needs one References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <3692ad42.0@news.depaul.edu> <915584016.756552@newsvl21> <76uer8$fvt@inetarena.com> <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan7135206@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:05:06 GMT In <SCOTT.99Jan7135206@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > [Let me give you a hint - if MacOS X Server/Intel let me make a good > impression on my boss, our group would probably purchase three or four > PowerMac G3 systems by the end of the year. As things currently > stand, we _might_ purchase one, and then only because we have access > to a very specific discount that isn't available to the general > public.] This is exactly the same reason I gave for an Intel version several months ago. The existance of an Intel version is likely to sell _more_ Macs than if it doesn't exist. Maury
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Date: 8 Jan 1999 15:27:26 GMT Organization: NEXTTOYOU Message-ID: <77584u$im$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <915673553.633236@newsvl21> <773lm2$70m$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 15:27:26 GMT Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > Uli Zappe wrote: > > piers@ilink.de wrote: > > > What else could one want? > > The NEXTSTEP user interface and the ability to run on hardware without > > kindergarten aesthetics? > Well, each to his own standards I guess. I've programmed and used > mainframes, minis and to some extent micros since 1962 when COBOL wasn't > yet ready for prime time, so I guess I'm not a computer wimp. When I saw > the Mac in 1984 I had this wave of recognition that this was how we > should be interfacing with computers and anything short of this was > unacceptable. I'm willing to accept an imperfect UI starting in February > because I've been waiting far too long already for a fully modern OS and > a fully modern development environment , and in the knowledge that by the > end of the year Apple should have the rest of the peices in place. By the > rest of the peices I don't mean carbon apps, because I will have new > "favourite" apps by then, what I mean is an acceptable modern UI. It's only that I doubt exactly that. It's my impression that Apple will sacrifice a lot of the advantages of the (newer, better) NeXT UI over the (older, worse) Mac UI just because of the argument that you want to dismiss: that people are conservative and cling to old standards. If the UI will be better than NeXT's, I'm the first one who will be very happy about change. But I doubt it very much. > What I see here is people wanting to hang on to an obsolete past: > old-style user interfaces Well, as I said before: the Mac's UI is much older than NeXT's. >, a programming language that no one else uses, And this from a Mac user????? You should be the first to be immune against the "No one else uses what you use" argument if what you use is so much better, no? > and cisc hardware that should have reached the end of its useful life > years ago were it not for the fact that Intel has gobs of money to spend > keeping it on life-support. No argument here, I like Apple hardware *much* better. It's the awful design (I mean the aesthetics of the case design) of the new machines I meant; this is surely a matter of taste, though. Bye Uli -- _____________________________________________________________________ Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: - D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007 Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042 _____________________________________________________________________
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Final Cut web page Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:52:28 -0800 Organization: Net Squared, Inc. Message-ID: <775kf9$120$1@your.mother.com> I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I found an Apple web page on Final Cut Pro, the software/technology they bought from Adobe (?) a number of months back: http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/ Todd
From: giddings@nospam.genetics.utah.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 8 Jan 1999 19:00:55 GMT Organization: University of Utah Distribution: world Message-ID: <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 19:00:55 GMT Cc: maury@istar.ca In <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote: > In <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in > support > > of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. > > Hmmm, seems one needs to re-read the mythical man month! > > Maury I'll admit I haven't read it. However, I have a pretty good understanding of the principle, having managed several software projects involving multiple developers. However, I am not in agreement that the argument necessarily applies to open-source projects. Simply look at the progression of linux: it has clearly benefitted by the _large_ number of people working on it. And one of the reasons for that is there are many people working on different aspects of it. With gnustep, there are many different objects and programs needing completion. If each person took on a different one, there may not be an exactly linear relationship between number of people and rate of progress, but I would bet it would be close. However, if you have multiple people begin working on a single object or program, it might slow things down. I would be interested to see if anyone has done any real research as to how/when/if the "mythical man month" principle applies regarding open source. Michael Giddings
From: ploiku@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: The Long and Sordid History of Rhapsody Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:54:06 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <775k8d$i5n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> The Long and Sordid History of Rhapsody /* From Press Releases at www.apple.com */ 1996-12-20 Apple buys Next 1997-01-07 Apple announces OS Strategy New OS is code-named Rhapsody To developers in mid-late 1997 To consumers by 1998-01-07 Optimized for PowerPC Hardware Expected to support all shipping PowerPC systems sold by Apple and Apple licensees today. Expected to support CHRP Intent to develop/sell/support NeXT software for Pentium, Sparc, WinNT 1997-05-13 Also bringing out a version of the OS for Intel, code-named Rhapsody for Intel processors Rhapsody to developers in mid-late 1997 Rhapsody to customers in early 1998 Customers can migrate to Rhapsody on their own speed. Unified Customer in mid 1998 Released OPENSTEP 4.2 Released WebObjects (can be deployed on Rhapsody, Rhapsody for Intel, WinNT, Solaris, HP) Rhapsody given 1st Public showing. Using Yellowbox, deploy on Rhapsody, Mac OS, Rhapsody/Intel, Win95, WinNT 1997-06-17 Rhapsody Customer release in 1998 1997-10-13 Rhapsody DR seeded (DR1?) Expects MacOS Systems shipped from early 1997 to run Rhapsody Customer release planned in 1998 1997-11-10 PowerMac G3s Announced Rhapsody/Intel, YB/NT DRs are shipped 1998-09-01 WebObjects 4 shipped. WO Visual Development tools available for MacOS X Server, Windows NT 4.0. WO Deployment on Solaris 2.6 and HP-UX 10.x 1998-01-05 Mac OS X Server announced. Requires Power Macintosh G3 or Macintosh G3 Server -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 8 Jan 1999 19:21:30 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Message-ID: <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 00:50:06 -0600, Michael Sheets <msheets@wwisp.com> wrote: >> 3. Will us Apple Developers (the $500/year level) >> get MacOSX Server for free when it ships? >Uncomfirmed, the answer is yes. But it may not include WebObjects. Will this be part of the $500/year membership or be only sent out to existing members? Why wouldn't it include WO when the 25tpm version is now free, and the only part of WO that isn't free and doesn't ship with the dev tools is WOB? If I get OSX in the mail as part of my membership, I might be more inclined to buy one of the G3 Smurfs.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Date: 8 Jan 1999 19:19:19 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Message-ID: <775lnn$smq@news1.panix.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <3692ad42.0@news.depaul.edu> <915584016.756552@newsvl21> <76uer8$fvt@inetarena.com> <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan7135206@slave.doubleu.com> On 7 Jan 99 13:52:06, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote: >For _me_, wearing my hobbiest-programmer hat, it doesn't make a >difference. For me, wearing my high-paid consultant hat, this >decision on Apple's part makes me look like a fool for making business >decisions based on Apple's stated future plans. I sadly concur. Up until last month Apple was still talking about shipping OSX Server on Intel. While I can understand Apple's refusal to commit to ongoing Intel support _after_ OSX Server, killing it in the 11th hour does little to help Apple's credibility. It would be nearly impossible to migrate users from YB/NT/x86 to YB/OSX/G3 without first doing so sort of pilot migration (ON EXISTING HARDWARE) to YB/OSX/x86. It would take forever to get someone to sign off on it. As it stands now, I'll be looking at WO in NT now that I can deploy the 25 tpm version for free. Other than that, Apple doesn't make anything I want to buy; nor do they make anything I can sell to my clients.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:40:41 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p214.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36965F36.B8A6BAA6@tone.ca> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 19:40:00 GMT I wrote: > > If I was Apple I'd be very concerned about unleashing an OS without the > familiar Mac interface but with "MacOS" as part of it's name on it's > unsophisticated users at a price point they could afford. The fall-out could > get nasty. Do you this is why they're doing what they're doing, or are there > other reasons? > See Scott Anquishes latest article on www.stepwise.com. --Openstep 2000--. I love it. Michael
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 8 Jan 1999 20:07:32 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Distribution: world Message-ID: <775oi4$cm2$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> remove nospam to reply <giddings@nospam.genetics.utah.edu> wrote: : I would be interested to see if anyone has done any real research as to : how/when/if the "mythical man month" principle applies regarding open : source. Perhaps not research but, but the issue was discussed way back in "the Cathedral and the Baazar": "In ``The Mythical Man-Month'', Fred Brooks observed that programmer time is not fungible; adding developers to a late software project makes it later. He argued that the complexity and communication costs of a project rise with the square of the number of developers, while work done only rises linearly. This claim has since become known as ``Brooks's Law'' and is widely regarded as a truism. But if Brooks's Law were the whole picture, Linux would be impossible." http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar-10.html John
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The iMac mouse Date: 8 Jan 1999 20:35:00 GMT Organization: University of No Learning Message-ID: <775q5k$5d5@crcnis3.unl.edu> References: <36930908.5A63A6@nstar.net> <76vurv$ik2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3693CB5F.AFEA271A@tone.ca> <770pbk$6k6$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <id_est-0701990107230001@192.168.1.10> <SPAMLESSforrest-0701992033190001@term5-40.vta.west.net> Forrest Cameranesi (SPAMLESSforrest@west.net) wrote: : : However, the G3s are intended for mid-range to advance use, which : typically implies that adults will be using them. For someone with hands : like mine (and my hands aren't *that* much bigger than others'), it's : virtually impossible to work with. So Apple should offer a variety of USB : mice; one, two, and three buttons, small and large. For the keyboard, : small (iMac style) and large (Extended II style) versions. Then bundle : different mice & keyboards with different machines. With iMacs, include : small one-button mice and a small keyboard. For mid-range G3s, include : large one- or two-button mice and large keyboards. For servers and : workstations, include large two- or three-button mice and a large : keyboard. Let the user choose from different devices in the BTO section of : the Apple Store (and, of course, it'd be easy to choose at a retail : outlet). : FWIW, the new G3 Minitowers DO have a ADB port in the back, so it should be possible to use a NeXT keyboard & mouse into it. Apple doesn't seem to want to advertise that it does have one, but it is clearly visible in the brochure's pictures. -Josh -- Do not send mail to this account. Really. "Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted. |ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 6/30/98 "Ask Bill [Gates] why function code 6 (in QDOS and still in MS-DOS more than ten years later) ends in a dollar sign, no one in the world knows that but me" -Gary Kildall
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:36:07 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0801991536070001@wil93.dol.net> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <915742371.171227@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <0sbl2.14881$kR5.19187@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <SCOTT.99Jan7172531@slave.doubleu.com> In article <SCOTT.99Jan7172531@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > In article <0sbl2.14881$kR5.19187@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com>, > Jean-Paul Samson <jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca> writes: > > I was stunned to hear that so many old NeXT developers are > completely fed up with Apple and their policies regard Mac OS X > Server. The likely loss of the Intel version is a big deal. I, > along with many others it seems, can't afford to purchase Apple > hardware for the next little while. I imagine that most OPENSTEP > developers have a large investment in their PC's, as this was the > most cost-effective and modern choice for the past few years. > > For me, and for many others, it's not an economic choice. If MacOS X > Server is the right choice, I'd have no problems replacing all of my > team's systems with PowerMac G3s. But Apple's effectively saying that > we have to buy the hardware _first_, _then_ evaluate it. It's not the > money that annoys me, it's that we don't have a choice in the matter. > [Have we seen this coming? Yes. But it was coming six-twelve months > out, after we got a very good look at MacOS X Server. Before Expo, > this transition was nice, comfortable, reasonably paced. Now it's > hit-the-wall-at-full-speed-and-pick-up-the-pieces.] Or, there's the other option. Buy ONE PowerMac to evaluate it. After all, you were only going to evaluate it on one PC, right? Then, if you like it, replace the entire team's systems. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:34:58 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0801991534580001@wil93.dol.net> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> In article <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote: > piers@ilink.de wrote: > > : Actually if you compare this to the approx. $5000 which we had to (and did > : repeatedly) shell out for Openstep 4.2 incl. development tools, we're down to > : a mere fifth. > > If you compare this to the $200 or so that academic users shelled out for > the system including development tools, and we've quintupled. I don't know. Does that include a complete version of Rhapsody with WebObjects and AppleShare? I doubt it. > > If you compare this to NT, it's more than twice the cost. Fat chance. WebObjects alone is $1500 on NT. Then, what's the cost of NT with unlimited client licenses? $5,000? > > If you compare this to $0 that Linux costs, INCLUDING development tools... But not WebObjects or AppleShare or Yellow Box or Blue Box. > > Apple != NeXT. True. They've reduced the price by 80% while vastly improving its capabilities. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 8 Jan 1999 15:58:03 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <775rgr$1o8$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 20:58:13 GMT In article <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in support > > of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. > Hmmm, seems one needs to re-read the mythical man month! The GNUstep project is probably somewhat different. The whole API is already designed and specified, meaning that developers can work more independently coding pieces of it; it's probably more parallelizable than a project designed from scratch.
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:38:18 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Message-ID: <1dlbmc0.1x63tb7j0b8sgN@roxboro0-055.dyn.interpath.net> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote: > That lack of leadership was (rightly) perceived by the Mac developers as > an indication that Yellow Box would turn into Yet Another Great Apple > Technology That Didn't Quite Make It, which justified their initial > skepticism. > > I think what galls NEXTSTEP developers the most is knowing, in our heart > of hearts, that this is really terrific technology. We all began as > skeptics who were won over by its elegance (aesthetically and > technically), and accomplished some of the best work of our lives more > quickly than ever before. There is a feeling that if someone at Apple were > just willing to try to make the case to the Mac developers, they would > "get it" I don't think we didn't "get it" we were/are afraid "that Yellow Box would turn into Yet Another Great Apple Technology That Didn't Quite Make It". This whole thread is mainly NEXT people saying they are giving up on it being carried into the future -- this /after/ they have spent lot's of $$ and time in learning and mastering it, and putting it to good use; why should MAC people (who never used it and haven't the investment that the next crowd has) have been eager to end up where you are now? At the time of the NeXT purchase, Copland was at a *minimum* of 2 years over due, well it's 2 years latter and in the consumer market (where most Mac developers live) there's damn little to show for the wait. So we "get it" as to the YB advantages, we ALSO "get it" that Apple will hype it and push it, right up to the time they dump it. If you want YOU hang on another 2-5 years hoping that things will get better and that eventually they will release something which you can sell to, but don't blame Mac developers for not adopting the Soon to be Released Next Great Thing. -- John Moreno
From: giddings@nospam.genetics.utah.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Don't give up, support GNUstep Date: 8 Jan 1999 21:25:46 GMT Organization: University of Utah Message-ID: <775t4q$4pc$2@coward.cc.utah.edu> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <7739d6$koh$1@news.xmission.com> <369598e4.0@news3.uswest.net> <SCOTT.99Jan8035857@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 21:25:46 GMT Cc: scott@doubleu.com In <SCOTT.99Jan8035857@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > I'm sorry to say that I saw the death of OpenStep the API a long > time ago. It's too bad, because there has been nothing else like > it, not even Java. But GNUstep looks like it may have a future, so > after I finish writing my book, I will lend some of my free time to > working on improving GNUstep. > > I think GNUstep is a good idea - but, unfortunately, I think it's > somewhat of a solution looking for a problem, at this time. I mean, > _I_ use Linux, thinking about using Linux fulltime doesn't cause my > head to implode, regardless of whether GNUstep is there. But I'm less > than sanguine about attempting to convince many customers of these > things. We sell to lawyers, and we count ourselves lucky if they > aren't running _DOS_ when we make the contact... of course, if we > suggest MacOS, they're going to start looking for where we hide our > second head and third arm... [cut] Though Gnustep may not be to the point where one could develop full commercial apps on it, I don't see it as a solution looking for a problem. To me the problem is clear: how to salvage my investment of many years of OpenStep programming. The only solutions I see are a) Gnustep, b) waiting longer for Apple to pull it's head out of you know where. The other problem Gnustep may solve in the future (and I think this is the goal) is how to make nice user friendly apps for Linux (and other OS's) without the headaches of X win programming. I also applaud that goal, and hope it comes to fruition. I understand that it may not immediately solve the problem of investment maintenance for people with products dealing with non-computer literati (such as doctors and lawyers), but I think it will in the long term. That is because there is nothing that prevents Gnustep from moving to Win/NT, or even MacOSX in the future (but I doubt it would move to the current MacOS, since that lacks many essential features of a modern os). Michael Giddings
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan8092334@slave.doubleu.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <3692ad42.0@news.depaul.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan7135206@slave.doubleu.com> <iPpl2.469$S02.7477@homer.alpha.net> In-reply-to: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com's message of Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:50:38 GMT Date: 8 Jan 99 09:23:34 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:29:20 PDT In article <iPpl2.469$S02.7477@homer.alpha.net>, rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) writes: Scott Hess (scott@nospam.doubleu.com) wrote: : For _me_, wearing my hobbiest-programmer hat, it doesn't make a : difference. For me, wearing my high-paid consultant hat, this : decision on Apple's part makes me look like a fool for making : business decisions based on Apple's stated future plans. We all take risks, you can't have success without taking a risk. I bought a SWTPC computer about 1979, an Atari in 1987, and a Next computer in 1991. So much for trying swim against the tide. Yeah, and NeXT is gone, Atari is gone. I can deal with that, I can, in the end, say "At least NeXT _tried_." I don't want Apple to fail, mind you - I'd just rather they didn't succeed by bodily throwing us overboard. Right now Apple is teaching me that Apple itself is an unmanageable risk. The fact that Windows sucks is a technical risk that can be managed. In my estimation, the people Apple is losing from the NeXT side of things is a particularily rich (technically) bunch, and losing them is drawing the average technical ability of their developer pool downward. Apple was going to lose some of us _regardless_, but the combination of MacOS X Server/Intel and a YellowBox/NT deployment would have kept about half of us around for another year or two. Besides, waging a war of attrition against your own developers can't be a good idea, under _any_ set of assumptions. Don't kid yourself that this is only happening on the NeXT side of things, either, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: eX-NeXT mailing list Message-ID: <XTuuv0HutuFU@cc.usu.edu> From: root@127.0.0.1 Date: 8 Jan 99 14:16:25 MDT References: <3696652D.A46CFA6D@cygnus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com In <3696652D.A46CFA6D@cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote: > In light of some recent threads on this newsgroup, I've created a new > mailing list "ex-next@cygnus.com". To subscribe, send a message with > the body: > > subscribe ex-next > > to majordomo@cygnus.com > > > The purpose of the mailing list is to provide a forum for those > expatriates of the NeXT community who are looking for technologies and > solutions to replace their current (or previous) home in > Nextstep/Openstep. You should always specify exactly how to unsubscribe to a group too. Otherwise you'll have tons of "unsubscribe me" messages going out to everyone.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan8093016@slave.doubleu.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <915673553.633236@newsvl21> <773lm2$70m$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca> In-reply-to: Michael's message of Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:27:37 -0500 Date: 8 Jan 99 09:30:16 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:29:20 PDT In article <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca> Michael <michael@tone.ca> writes: Uli Zappe wrote: > piers@ilink.de wrote: > > Exactly. And MOSXS != Openstep. For me it's more like this: > > MOSXS = Openstep > > + the long overdue update to the Unix layer > > + tons of added features throughout all object libraries > > + QuickTime > > + the complete development environment > > + EOF > > + WebObjects > > + (hopefully) BlueBox > > > > What else could one want? > > The NEXTSTEP user interface and the ability to run on hardware without > kindergarten aesthetics? Well, each to his own standards I guess. I've programmed and used mainframes, minis and to some extent micros since 1962 when COBOL wasn't yet ready for prime time, so I guess I'm not a computer wimp. When I saw the Mac in 1984 I had this wave of recognition that this was how we should be interfacing with computers and anything short of this was unacceptable. When I saw NeXTSTEP in 1988, I had this wave of recognition that this was how programmers should be programming computers, and anything short of this was unacceptable. There are _zero_ technical reasons why we can't have it all. An excellent user interface, and an excellent programmer interface. What Apple is risking is that they will follow the crowd too closely, and end up as just another Java deployment platform. They're being shaved from both ends - Windows is becoming more and more sufficient to meet the needs of people who want the UI glitter, things like Linux are becoming more and more suffficient to meet the needs of people who need the muscle on the technical side. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Don't give up, support GNUstep Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan8035857@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <7739d6$koh$1@news.xmission.com> <369598e4.0@news3.uswest.net> In-reply-to: "[ the emperor ]"'s message of Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:34:41 -0700 Date: 8 Jan 99 03:58:57 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:29:19 PDT In article <369598e4.0@news3.uswest.net>, "[ the emperor ]" <kris@planetary.net> writes: Don Yacktman wrote in message <7739d6$koh$1@news.xmission.com>... >I think it is about time to see some more people rallying around >GNUSTEP because rallying around Apple sure doesn't seem to >accomplish much of anything. I'm sorry to say that I saw the death of OpenStep the API a long time ago. It's too bad, because there has been nothing else like it, not even Java. But GNUstep looks like it may have a future, so after I finish writing my book, I will lend some of my free time to working on improving GNUstep. I think GNUstep is a good idea - but, unfortunately, I think it's somewhat of a solution looking for a problem, at this time. I mean, _I_ use Linux, thinking about using Linux fulltime doesn't cause my head to implode, regardless of whether GNUstep is there. But I'm less than sanguine about attempting to convince many customers of these things. We sell to lawyers, and we count ourselves lucky if they aren't running _DOS_ when we make the contact... of course, if we suggest MacOS, they're going to start looking for where we hide our second head and third arm... I can't say that I hold anything against Jobs and crew, either, because now that they own a platform franchise once again, they have to do what they can to make it work financially, and that means making the tough decisions about which business community to sell to and which to ignore. Ignore me! IGNORE ME! Please! What got to me is that they aren't ignoring us. They're kicking us while we're down, shouting to the MacOS faithful "Look! We don't care about our old NeXT cadre of programmers. Here, let me prove it by kicking them again!" I _want_ them to ignore us. I do want them to just release some of the wonderful stuff that's done, that's out of our reach due to the fact that you can't buy it. For instance, YellowBox/NT is done, it's in WebObject4.0/NT. But we have to continue to deploy with OpenStep4.2/NT, because there's no apparent deployment version of YellowBox/NT. MacOS X Server/Intel is done, and most (all?) of the people who want it already have hardware that probably runs NeXTSTEP3.3. I'd be significantly happier if YellowBox/NT Deployment and MacOS X Server/Intel just magically appeared on the Apple price list, with no public announcement, no big to-do. I'd even be happy if they took us aside, told us that they were going to give us this stuff, but that they were going to publicly announce us as whipping boys for the MacOS crowd. So long as I have the tools we require. because at any time you can have the rug jerked out from under you, as Scott Hess and many others, including myself, have experienced, and Apple has no responsibility to its customers to say anything other than "Trusting us was your mistake." Near the end of the BOF, one of the Apple guys said "We'll continue to provide you with information you need to make your business plans." If that wasn't the low point, it was pretty close :-). Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: merefbast@aol.com (MerefBast) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: re: Apple's broken promises Date: 8 Jan 1999 21:38:54 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19990108163854.11197.00009441@ng100.aol.com> In a message dated 1/7/99 5:43:43 PM: <<i think the new mac os x server won't run on intel right? This is the real end of any nextstepper's support for apple.>> Good question. Apple's press release only mentioned the G3. But Apple made promises for Intel versions -- promises that they must keep under tough California state consumer protection laws. Should they fail to keep their promise (that Rhapsody will run on every model they were making or made after January 1997), then at a minimum they will have to refund the purchase price of any computers bought that can't run Rhapsody (Mac OS X Server). They are probably also liable for the cost of any Mac-only software or peripherals purchased for those computers as well. As Apple did not announce the exact Intel models to be supported, the case is a bit tougher, but everyone who purchased an Intel machine capable of running NeXT should be able to successfully sue Apple for the cost of those machines and maybe any peripherals. It is amazing that Apple is being this stupid. They've been sued TWICE before with class action suits over failure to meet their promises. Lost once in court and settled out of court in the other. The costs of supporting pre-G3 PowerPC machines and Intel machines would have been trivial -- they already had DR2 running on all the promised machines. Apple clearly dropped that support in a misguided attempt to force new computer sales on potential customers. At a thousand dollars a copy, there is PLENTY of profit margin -- and for Intel machines, profit they would never otherwise see. As a developer who got badly burned by attempting to write software first for Copland and then for OpenDoc and then for QuickTime and then for Yellow Box, it is kind of amazing that I'm still writing any code for Macintosh. Can't Apple figure out why so many developers have jumped ship in the last few years? And things are just as bad for businesses. Why should any business purchase an Apple computer or operating system? Apple has a consistent record of failing to meet its promises. Personally, I would like to see a public domain version of Mac OS X. I am willing to volunteer considerable time if someone rich will provide the appropriate resources (hardware, documentation, web space for posting public open source code, development software, etc.) -- and I will donate my time free of charge for the public good. If I had the appropriate resources I am confident that I could create a copy of Mac OS X that runs on 68040, PowerPC, and Pentium -- and finish the project BEFORE Apple releases their official version. <a href="http://www.honeycomb.net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm">http://www.honeycomb. net/os/oses/rhapsody.htm</a>
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Final Cut web page Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:11:32 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?= Message-ID: <1dlbyzk.14at2a21o2768N@mp-215-175.daxnet.no> References: <775kf9$120$1@your.mother.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com) <todd@dev.null> wrote: > I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I found an Apple web > page on Final Cut Pro, the software/technology they bought from Adobe > (?) a number of months back: > > http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/ > > Todd They bought that and several developers from Macromedia. One of them was the guy behind Adobe Premiere. Kind of the slave-trade all over again... ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:11:27 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?= Message-ID: <1dlbyxo.156ju1814x1w5cN@mp-215-175.daxnet.no> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: > In <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in support > > of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. > > Hmmm, seems one needs to re-read the mythical man month! Or the "Cathedral or the Bazaar" (or something similar, I forget) -- Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen tsivertsen@c2i.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Somebody SAVE THE DRIVERS Message-ID: <D$7clDcYxKDF@cc.usu.edu> From: root@127.0.0.1 Date: 8 Jan 99 12:05:49 MDT Distribution: world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With Intel support going away, I am fearful that the Apple/NextAnswers site with all the Intel drivers will also soon go away. Has anyone thought to get all these drivers and put them up at Peak or Peanuts before Apple pulls the rug out from under us? If I upgrade my PC, and I get, say, a new graphics card, I'd be very upset if I went to NextAnswers to get the driver, and they were had all been deleted. Am I alone in this fear? Can we coordinate a way to insure that all the currently available drivers will stay available?
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Date: 8 Jan 1999 21:22:39 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <775suv$eh4$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0801991534580001@wil93.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 21:22:39 GMT Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: > I don't know. Does that include a complete version of Rhapsody with > WebObjects and AppleShare? I doubt it. I was referring to NeXTSTEP academic pricing. Joe, if you didn't know that, stop here. You're out of your league, no offense. > > If you compare this to NT, it's more than twice the cost. > Fat chance. > WebObjects alone is $1500 on NT. Then, what's the cost of NT with > unlimited client licenses? $5,000? Joe, as a longtime Macophile normally I appreciate your comments as a wacko-pro-Mac guy. But you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. Drop it. Sean
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 21:56:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <775utn$scd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <76oh4u$eh9$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76pobu$h39@news1.panix.com> <76qnam$jf5$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76rqt1$338@news1.panix.com> <76rss8$des$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <76u6d8$klm@news1.panix.com> <76u8j3$317$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7712k4$gkr@news1.panix.com> <77169m$8rg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <7731f5$avb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3695161F.E0437924@ericsson.com> In article <3695161F.E0437924@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Charles Swiger wrote: > [cut] >> The difference is subtle since the advocate and the zealot try to promote >> their preference as well as they can. The best way to see the distinction is >> usually how a person treats the alternatives to his preferred system. Do >> they accurately acknowledge not just the strengths but the weakness of what >> they prefer when compared against those alternatives? Do they acknowledge >> that an alternative might be a better choice for some people or some >> purposes? > > For what it's worth there are no convenient definitions of "zealot" than > can be agreed upon. It's normally just used as a pejorative and left at > that. That NEXTSTEP Cmd-equals ("define in Webster's dictionary") still does its job: zeal·ot \'zel-et\ n [LL zelotes, fr. Gk zelotes, fr. zealos] (14c) 1 cap: a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century A.D. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine 2: a zealous person; esp: a fanatical partisan -- zealot adj A person who is a "fanatical partisan" seems to be a good, convenient definition to me.... [ ... ] > Similarly, it's up to Apple to make a conclusion about whether or not a > YB port to Linux is truly a sensible thing to do. As a Linux advocate > (who happens to be an advocate of many other things, as well) it's my > responsibility to speak to the advantages of a YB/Linux port. You may > hear balanced opinion from me, but inasmuch as I'm an advocate it's not > my responsibility in the conversation. That's what discussion and debate > are for. If you stayed within those bounds, this whole discussion never would have arisen. When you start denying appropriate credit to the GNU project or the various *BSD projects, when you start claiming that most people have been exposed to open source through Linux, _that_ is where you move from "Linux advocacy" into "Linux zealotry". > Calling people "wankers" doesn't engender discussion and debate. Looking at the size of this thread to date, I can't agree. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: bmeadows@nosc.mil (Brian K. Meadows) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server, OpenStep, Intel ?? Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 22:00:19 GMT Organization: NCCOSC RDT&E Division, San Diego, CA 92147 Message-ID: <36967fa0.365511609@poisson.spawar.navy.mil> References: <76ua1s$6lm$1@your.mother.com> Seems the cyber press is reporting the death of MOSX-Intel (cf. www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/bof.html). Does anyone know if this is true? If so, Apple just shut themselves out of the Government market. If I can't run MOSX on a PC, then it will never make it's way into the Government labs. Guess after years of running Next & OpenStep, I'm damned to the lesser alternatives. Brian
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:55:27 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <775uuv$pqt@shelob.afs.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <1dlbmc0.1x63tb7j0b8sgN@roxboro0-055.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote: >If you want YOU hang on another 2-5 years hoping that things >will get better and that eventually they will release something >which you can sell to, but don't blame Mac developers for not >adopting the Soon to be Released Next Great Thing. I fear I have been misunderstood. My comments concerned *Apple's* unwillingness to "sell" Yellow Box to the Mac developer community, NOT the developer community's unwillingness to take a look at it. Precisely because Apple has been so quick to cut technologies off at the knees in the past, I understand the reticence to embrace the latest and greatest thing. Greg
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:13:44 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Message-ID: <1dlbr0w.1kj1won12f5a2iN@roxboro0-048.dyn.interpath.net> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <1dlbmc0.1x63tb7j0b8sgN@roxboro0-055.dyn.interpath.net> <775uuv$pqt@shelob.afs.com> ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote: > John Moreno wrote: > >If you want YOU hang on another 2-5 years hoping that things will get > >better and that eventually they will release something which you can sell > >to, but don't blame Mac developers for not adopting the Soon to be > >Released Next Great Thing. > > I fear I have been misunderstood. My comments concerned *Apple's* > unwillingness to "sell" Yellow Box to the Mac developer community, NOT the > developer community's unwillingness to take a look at it. Precisely because > Apple has been so quick to cut technologies off at the knees in the past, I > understand the reticence to embrace the latest and greatest thing. The best "sell" they could have made would have been to ship the server version last jan. even if they had to limit it to just one model. Apple clearly has no commitment to anything that's not available on shipping hardware (and even then the commitment isn't exactly rock solid). Apple has spent the last decade demonstrating this to developers, the NeXT reverse take over apparently got some developers to believe they had changed their spots, but the best (and possibly only) way to *really* get the developers to believe they should hop on the bandwagon is to have it available on the computers they are selling (the more the better). I don't know if they could sell free ticket's to Heaven to developers at the moment without first setting up a bus ride to the gates first. -- John Moreno
Message-ID: <36968DF7.6FA21B26@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 23:16:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:16:11 PDT You have no idea the costs to support meager distributions of products. These developers were counting on a marketplace .vs. marketspace. Sure, the server product will be out there and space exists for their products. When Apple put the consuming public on-notice that the server product was *not* intended for applications, that poisioned the market for Greg Anderson .et .al products. These developers have all been the "cult" route. There are no rewards for pursuing beliefs. Beliefs are all that they would have to go on for releasing their products. They could only believe a market exists when Apple has explicitly stated that a competing applications market to MacOS is not intended. Very stupid business decision to throw money at that windmill... -r Michael wrote: > Greg Anderson wrote: > > > <snip> > > > FWIW, I am still in my "Delphi phase," and doing very well, thank you. Which > > is good, because from the looks of things, there is no longer a viable > > NeXT/Apple phase. I hear whisperings (so far unconfirmed) that the Third > > Party CDROM with YB apps has been scrapped from the OSXS release. YOU do the > > math. > > > > <snip> > > Greg > > What was the 3rd party CD to contain, real working apps bundled or demos? Whats > wrong with developers producing a commercial bundle, independently of what > Apple does? Come February or so I'm in the market for at least PasteUp, > WriteUp, Mesa, Tiffany and Create to use on my Mac as long as I don't have to > break the bank and as long as they are going to be supported. Any developers > who are so attached to not buying Macs that they are going to abandon their > products please let me know before I do anything foolish. > > Michael Monner
From: croehrig@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 23:22:37 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7763vq$pm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> In article <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > >From Scott Anguish's comments on Stepwise I get the impression > >that developers could influence Apple on the ObjC vs Java issue. > >Do you get the impression that they might be open to be influenced > >on other issues as well? > > No. I've said that before. Maybe we should be trying to influence Larry Ellison instead. :-) --- Chris Roehrig -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own ositions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:59:42 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <775l7t$3ro$1@news.erinet.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <915673553.633236@newsvl21> <773lm2$70m$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca> <7755k5$tv$1@crib.corepower.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 19:10:53 GMT Nathan Urban wrote in message <7755k5$tv$1@crib.corepower.com>... >In article <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote: >"Old-style user interfaces": We like them better. They're simple, >minimal, elegant, functional, and with attention to detail. Many NeXT >users are former Mac users who preferred the NeXT way of doing things. Can it really be called an "Old-style user interface" anyway? Most UI's still haven't caught up with some of the nifty ideas floating around in there... Hell, WIN98/MacOS 8.x certainly don't strike me as being new. Of course, I still believe OS/2's Workplace Shell is worlds ahead of the others, as well. John
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 23:50:42 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: > I agree with much of what Scott says. However, I take issue with this > statement: > > ".... We've also seen that the Macintosh developer community still holds > significant distain for the product and for the OpenStep community." > > I think that this isn't the case. ... > The average *independent* Mac developer (Mac-first/Mac-only) is VERY > interested in YB/OpenStep coding. HOWEVER, judging by what has been said on > AIMED-TALK (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and > Developers), independent developers have concerns with long-term viability, > cross-platform attainability, etc. Mac users simply do not understand how > horrified developers were when various Mac technologies were canceled after > literally YEARS of hype. Most Mac users don't know how much time is spent > mastering an API and developing products around that API, and how many > millions of dollars worth of time have been wasted and/or by independent > Mac developers who trusted Apple to do what they said they would in the > first place. > THOSE developers would, for the most part, like to use OpenStep/YB coding > practices, but are very skittish about jumping into the water again after > losing several fingers and toes to the last managerial cost-cutting shark > that swam by. That's not "distain," that's merely sane business practice. Point taken. Unfortunately, Apple's latest gyrations over OSX Server are REINFORCING this anxiety, rather than alleviating it. So let's see... we screw veteran OPENSTEP developers and brave Mac developers who have made the move the Yellow Box so as to reassure Mac developers, and we do this in a way that is guaranteed to increase Mac developers' mistrust of Apple's ability/willingness to follow through on its commitments. Yep, makes perfect sense. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:23:35 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p214.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jan 1999 19:23:29 GMT Greg Anderson wrote: > Michael wrote: > >What was the 3rd party CD to contain, > >real working apps bundled or demos? > > That was up to each developer to decide. Most people -- myself included -- > were going to provide a full version of the app with certain restrictions > until a paid license code was obtained. For example, WriteUp and PasteUp > would refuse to save or print until you entered a good license key, but > otherwise they would do everything they are documented to do. > > >Whats wrong with developers producing a commercial bundle, > >independently of what Apple does? > > How are they supposed to find the customers? At least when Apple ships a > CDROM with a bunch of sample apps, they (1) establish a belief that they are > soliciting application support for the OS, which should encourage other > developers; and (2) help current developers to seed the market after three > verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry dry years. It would > cost Apple an extra 50 cents in the distribution media, and return a world > of potential good. The crowd who would be willing to pay $995 for OSXS, or who find other ways of getting it are also going to be very aware of how to find out what software is available for it. Anything available is well publicized on MacCentral, Stepwise, Macintouch, etc. A well advertised commercial bundle wouldn't hurt. Your problem is going to be selling in volume because there is no consumer version at a low price point. > > > >Come February or so I'm in the market for at least PasteUp, > >WriteUp, Mesa, Tiffany and Create to use on my Mac as long as > >I don't have to break the bank and as long as they are going to be > >supported. Any developers who are so attached to not buying Macs > >that they are going to abandon their products please let me know > >before I do anything foolish. > > In all honesty, Apple has not left much a decision. Not shipping a Third > Party Solutions CD that Apple had *actively* *solicited* as recently as > September is tantamount to saying "We've decided YB is not going to be a > horizontal application platform." Coupled with the non-consumer level of > pricing, I expect most older developers will decide not to fight city hall > any longer. > > Every recent decision seems calculated to flush the few remaining YB > developers so no one will be standing to compete with their new Best Buddies > from Redmond when the consumer version ships. "Kill the baby," indeed. I > understand why it is being done from a business perspective, but I hope my > friends inside NeXT/Apple feel ashamed about what has happened. > > Greg If I was Apple I'd be very concerned about unleashing an OS without the familiar Mac interface but with "MacOS" as part of it's name on it's unsophisticated users at a price point they could afford. The fall-out could get nasty. Do you this is why they're doing what they're doing, or are there other reasons? From Scott Anguish's comments on Stepwise I get the impression that developers could influence Apple on the ObjC vs Java issue. Do you get the impression that they might be open to be influenced on other issues as well? Michael Monner
From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:07:19 -0700 Organization: ARDI Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com Message-ID: <ufg19lnwaw.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> >>>>> "Forrest" == Forrest Cameranesi <SPAMLESSforrest@west.net> writes: Forrest> Pardon my ignorance, I'm not a developer, and even if I was Forrest> I couldn't have made it to MWSF anyway... Forrest> These seems to be a lot of commotion on this group about Forrest> OPENSTEP being dead, and GNUSTEP as an alternative. I Forrest> haven't heard anything about this from anyone, and none of Forrest> the discussion on this group seems to have openly stated Forrest> "It's DEAD!". I've been follow the coverage as best as I Forrest> can, and I did read the YB-BOF article on StepWise, but I Forrest> still don't see anything about YB being dead. Can someone Forrest> clarify the situation for me? When Apple bought Power Computing, Yellow Box died. It took some time for this to sink in, though. --Cliff ctm@ardi.com It's the end of the world as we know it and I'm not singing in the rain.
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:17:53 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Message-ID: <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance, I'm not a developer, and even if I was I couldn't > have made it to MWSF anyway... > > These seems to be a lot of commotion on this group about OPENSTEP being > dead, and GNUSTEP as an alternative. I haven't heard anything about this > from anyone, and none of the discussion on this group seems to have openly > stated "It's DEAD!". I've been follow the coverage as best as I can, and I > did read the YB-BOF article on StepWise, but I still don't see anything > about YB being dead. Can someone clarify the situation for me? > It's not that Apple has said that YB is dead. It's that they've said (or strongly implied?) that MacOS-X Server for Intel is dead before delivery, that they intend to move away from Objective-C toward Java, etc. I think the reason that the NeXT community is taking this as "Openstep is dead" is not that the API is dead, but that it is currently demphasized until after Carbon (assuming they don't jsut stick with Carbon instead of delivering on that future promise), and that "Openstep the OS" is dead (ie. Rhapsody, in its original conception, will not be delivered). This is,I think, one too many times that Mr. Jobs and Apple/NeXT has created an impression or made a promise that it has later elected not to follow through upon. Even if the products aren't dead, it begs the question as to why we should trust Apple and/or Jobs. My own answer to that question is that we should not, and that we should pursue avenues that do not put us at the mercy of any single company in the future. But that's just _my_ answer. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd -----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======----- Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 8 Jan 99 18:33:29 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy >So let's see... we screw veteran OPENSTEP developers and brave Mac >developers >who have made the move the Yellow Box so as to reassure Mac developers, >and we >do this in a way that is guaranteed to increase Mac developers' mistrust of >Apple's ability/willingness to follow through on its commitments. Yep, >makes >perfect sense. Make a distinction here: Apple makes moves to placate Microsoft, Adobe, MacroMind and the other "top 100 Mac developers" while increasing the smaller developer's mistrust of Apple's ability/willingness to follow through on its commitments. If you put it that way, it certainly makes *some* sense, but (just like the decisions with GX and OpenDoc) I don't have to like it. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Charles F. Waltrip" <Charles.Waltrip@jhuapl.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:45:52 -0500 Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab, Laurel, MD, USA Message-ID: <3696B4CF.92B66118@jhuapl.edu> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <915673553.633236@newsvl21> <773lm2$70m$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <369615D8.B45C3910@tone.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 1999 01:52:39 GMT Michael wrote: > Uli Zappe wrote: [...] > > > What else could one want? > > > > The NEXTSTEP user interface and the ability to run on hardware without > > kindergarten aesthetics? > > > > -- > > > > Bye > > Uli > > [...] > > What I see here is people wanting to hang on to an obsolete past: > old-style user interfaces, Wouldn't that be Mac OS users since they have the older (than NeXTstep) UI and Quickdraw rather than Display Postscript? > a programming language that no one else uses, Objective-C, you mean? And which, if any, of the vastly more popular languages are you advocating? Visual Basic? C++? The subset of C++/Objective-C: C? Pearl? Java? And, given that Objective-C is more advanced than any of those, on what do you base its obsolescence? Or (just curious) are you one of the "no one else uses" (and never did) group you refer to? If you are, then, if you're also a Mac advocate, you may be pleasantly surprised. (Java is kind of a special case. As a language, it lacks significant advanced features of Objective-C but defines a number of interfaces that are part of the "language" so that you have to consider the combination of Objective-C plus OpenStep to be comparable. And when they are comparable, Objective-C is still ahead even if you ignore its ability to integrate Java.) > > and cisc hardware that should have reached the end of its useful life > years ago were it not for the fact that Intel has gobs of money to spend > keeping it on life-support. Intel was stimulated by the competition from RISC, of course, and driven by the market necessity to support all of that legacy software (Intel has gobs of money *because* they kept the golden goose on life-support). Turns out that the competition was good for everybody stimulating RISC to keep improving also. And, actually, the CISC hardware is still pretty good. The problem with Pentiums is that they usually run Windows 95/98/NT. When they run Linux/FreeBSD/etcBSD/Rhapsody, they hold their own. Of course, the only point Uli made about the hardware was its aesthetics and I tend to disagree (well, it's just a matter of taste, isn't it?). While I still prefer NeXT's hardware to Apple's new look, I prefer Apple's new look to the standard PC hardware out there. But with USB and Firewire, I'm not sure anything matters except the keyboard, mouse and monitor since you can hide the mini-tower away in the next room. (Of course, the new Apple mouse is *sized* for a kindergartner--but I don't object to it on aesthetic grounds.) Chuck --- Charles F. Waltrip email: Charles.Waltrip@jhuapl.edu Opinions expressed are my own.
From: "Charles F. Waltrip" <Charles.Waltrip@jhuapl.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 21:13:33 -0500 Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab, Laurel, MD, USA Message-ID: <3696BB4C.85DDD122@jhuapl.edu> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 1999 02:20:20 GMT Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > [...] I did read the YB-BOF article on StepWise, but I still don't see anything > about YB being dead. Can someone clarify the situation for me? Well, the YB-BOF article (http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/bof.html) I believe you refer to clearly says that YB is NOT dead. I tend to believe that's right but, with Apple, you never know. (The full version of the Apple slogan is, I believe: "Think different. Uncertainty? Live with it and learn to love it." Chuck --- Charles F. Waltrip email: Charles.Waltrip@jhuapl.edu Opinions expressed are my own.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:51:12 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Scott Anguish has posted a very eloquent statement on the high cost of Mac OS X Server on the Stepwise site: http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html I hope someone at Apple is reading it. In case they're not, I would encourage all of you who are as dismayed as I am about the OSX Server pricing to follow Scott's advice to tell Apple (leadership@apple.com) and copy him (sanguish@digifix.com). Venting on this site clearly isn't helping. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user (I hope) -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:04:33 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> Michael wrote in message <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca>... >Your problem is going to be selling in volume because there is >no consumer version at a low price point. Yup. And let me tell you, fulfillment and support are a real pain in the neck when sales are just dribbling in. You get just enough interest to disrupt your "normal" work, without having enough revenue to justify dedicated positions. >If I was Apple I'd be very concerned about unleashing an OS >without the familiar Mac interface but with "MacOS" as part >of it's name on it's unsophisticated users at a price point they >could afford. The fall-out could get nasty. Do you this is why >they're doing what they're doing, or are there other reasons? I think they didn't get the reaction they wanted/expected going all the way back to the first Developer Release, and for numerous reasons that probably should not be discussed in public, no one at Apple has been willing to step forward as a standard-bearer to push developers in this direction. That lack of leadership was (rightly) perceived by the Mac developers as an indication that Yellow Box would turn into Yet Another Great Apple Technology That Didn't Quite Make It, which justified their initial skepticism. I think what galls NEXTSTEP developers the most is knowing, in our heart of hearts, that this is really terrific technology. We all began as skeptics who were won over by its elegance (aesthetically and technically), and accomplished some of the best work of our lives more quickly than ever before. There is a feeling that if someone at Apple were just willing to try to make the case to the Mac developers, they would "get it" like we did, and the whole thing would be a done deal. Of course, this won't be the first time great technology failed for non-technical reasons, but that doesn't make it any less annoying. >From Scott Anguish's comments on Stepwise I get the impression >that developers could influence Apple on the ObjC vs Java issue. >Do you get the impression that they might be open to be influenced >on other issues as well? No. I've said that before. Greg
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 9 Jan 1999 01:29:17 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36967cba.0@news.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <19990108202917.05605.00004784@ng-ch1.aol.com> JW Hendry said: << So has anyone decided to drop Display Ghostscript in favor of a function-based, non-interpreted graphics engine? Seems that'd make the most sense, and perhaps a lot easier. >> Uh, my impression is that Display GhostScript has made quite good progress and is now essentially functional with optimization being the primary effort. You can check for a status report on this at <www.gnustep.org> though this may not be up-to-date--they've been awfully busy coding and too busy I believe to keep the web site current. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: eX-NeXT mailing list Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 12:06:05 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Message-ID: <3696652D.A46CFA6D@cygnus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In light of some recent threads on this newsgroup, I've created a new mailing list "ex-next@cygnus.com". To subscribe, send a message with the body: subscribe ex-next to majordomo@cygnus.com The purpose of the mailing list is to provide a forum for those expatriates of the NeXT community who are looking for technologies and solutions to replace their current (or previous) home in Nextstep/Openstep. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd -----======Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible======----- Kein Mitleid Fu:r MicroSoft (no mercy for microsoft) -- www.kmfms.com
From: Al Ward <scrapdog@bigsky.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Photoshop ActionSite Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:04:11 -0700 Organization: Big Sky Network Technologies, Missoula, MT USA Message-ID: <3696B91B.C9127861@bigsky.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you haven't been here yet, please come check it out. http://www.coffeeware.com/moonlightdrive/ps4.html Free Actions, Brushes, Tips and other Photoshop Add ons...! Updated today, with more actions forthcoming! Al
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 8 Jan 99 13:39:16 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy spagiola@my-dejanews.com said: >Scott Anguish has posted a very eloquent statement on the high cost of Mac >OS X Server on the Stepwise site: > >http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/ >highcost.html > I agree with much of what Scott says. However, I take issue with this statement: ".... We've also seen that the Macintosh developer community still holds significant distain for the product and for the OpenStep community." I think that this isn't the case. Those "Mac developers" who don't particularly care to deal with Yellow Box are those Mac developers who are actually Mac and *Windows* developers, e.g., Microsoft, Adobe, Macromind, etc., all of whom want to use the Carbon API because they have millions of lines of code tied up with cross-platform applications that use non-YB/OpenStep coding practices. Carbon is targeted at them. They are MAJOR software developers for the Mac, but in terms of actual numbers of bodies involved, there aren't that many of them. The average *independent* Mac developer (Mac-first/Mac-only) is VERY interested in YB/OpenStep coding. HOWEVER, judging by what has been said on AIMED-TALK (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers), independent developers have concerns with long-term viability, cross-platform attainability, etc. Mac users simply do not understand how horrified developers were when various Mac technologies were canceled after literally YEARS of hype. Most Mac users don't know how much time is spent mastering an API and developing products around that API, and how many millions of dollars worth of time have been wasted and/or by independent Mac developers who trusted Apple to do what they said they would in the first place. THOSE developers would, for the most part, like to use OpenStep/YB coding practices, but are very skittish about jumping into the water again after losing several fingers and toes to the last managerial cost-cutting shark that swam by. That's not "distain," that's merely sane business practice. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:08:01 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <776h99$r0r@shelob.afs.com> References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote in message ... >What am I missing? Dr Prabhakar, where are you? I regret to inform you that Ernie seems to have been assimilated. (I had feared that might happen when he took the position.) As Winnie-The-Pooh might say, "You never can tell with Reality Distortion Fields." Greg
From: cleric@yale.graduate.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: 9 Jan 1999 02:40:28 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> Hi, If you haven't read Scott Anguish's editorial on the price of MacOSX Server, go point your web browser at http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html Briefly, there's a large problem with MOSXS's pricing schedule--you can't run Yellow Box apps on a machine that doesn't have a $1000 operating system on it. When Apple points out that the $995 price allows an unlimited number of clients to connect, they don't emphasize that they mean machines running MacOS 8, *not* MacOSX Server. Apple has been strongly encouraging developers to write Yellow Box apps, and now we find ourselves in the bizzare situation that the only reasonably priced mechanism for deploying those apps might be to use Windows NT/98 for clients! Apple makes most of its money from hardware sales, but in this particular case, they're actively discouraging people from buying large numbers of Macs to put on peoples' desks. I propose a slightly modified version of Scott Anguish's idea. Apple should produce a release of MacOSX Server specifically to allow Yellow Box apps to run on client machines. It could have all the developer tools removed, no net-booting capabilities, and most importantly, the inability to boot on its own--it would require the presence of a machine running a full (ie., $1000) version of MacOSX Server on the local network to run. Although I'm no NetInfo jock, this doesn't strike me as likely to be difficult to implement--it's just turning off existing functionality. Such a "MacOSX Server Client" OS wouldn't hurt MOSXS sales. In fact, it would increase them, since rather few people are willing to spend $1000 for a full copy of MOSXS on each client. I'd be perfectly happy if it were kept hush-hush to avoid "confusing the masses." Apple's Education division has products of its own that only they can sell through their own channels (the G3 All-in-one, the eMate, etc). Why can't Apple Enterprise? What am I missing? Dr Prabhakar, where are you? -- Dr John Kuszewski KGB Software Corp
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <367ff362.0@news.deniz.com> <m24sqkefz1.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <770k05$7is$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning? Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:02:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3696c907$0$19091@nntp1.ba.best.com> >To this day, I'm still flabbergasted that they gave up so easily. I liked the >OS/2 shell. The problem with OS/2 is that it lost momentum; IBM was far too late with releasing it. Actually, non-GUI version was there for a while; but it didn't cause much interest. Then Windows was released; everybody started writing apps for it. By the time OS/2 could run any Windows applications most applications used Windows Enhanced mode, which OS/2 didn't support. I don't know if even the most current version of OS/2 supports WIN32 applications; I doubt it. Except for IBM very few companies write OS/2 software. There isn't even small chance that OS/2 gets noticeable market share. The point is: why OS/2? What's wrong with Windows? Work great for most people (including myself). Boris
From: sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com (Sam) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 03:07:54 GMT Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider Message-ID: <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5 Jan 1999 20:03:32 -0000, lsn95r@mira.knirsch.de (Liang-Shing Ng) wrote: >>: Hi, >>: Is this list for agriculture or government? >>: Japan is week in the agricultural world, therefore it needs time to >>: to find the way to protect their people properly. >>Japan's farming system is very inefficient, (and Americans, responsible >>for setting is up, are partly to blame apparently) Japan has had a >>long time to attempt to reform its farming system, but realities being >>what they are... (land prices are so high, and the system is against >>consolidation) Even if we start now, and only allowing for an 0.8% >>increase per annum, thing's aren't going to change any if there is no >>reform, and everything is produced on sub 5 acre farms. >Yet again, American can't seem to think of alternative paradigm to >"efficiency, capitalism, efficiancy, capitalism". >People has to be protected. Their jobs have to be secured. You obviously do not care about the millions of jobs the Japanese stole in western countries in many industries, thorough dumping, stealing secrets and copying. As an example, the Japanese stole the designs to CZ GP engines in the sixties by bribing a racer to ride the GP motorcycle out of the circuit to the Japanese with blueprints. CZ went broke. It would be acceptable, (hey! capitalism is vicious) if it worked both ways, but no, the Japanese are very protective of their own. Sam
From: luomat@peak.org.obvious.portion (TjL) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Somebody SAVE THE DRIVERS Distribution: world Organization: would be nice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <D$7clDcYxKDF@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <C2Al2.97$sI6.216362@newshog.newsread.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 03:29:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 22:29:38 EDT There are folks out there who download all the NeXTanswers routinely. TjL -- "I realized I had run out of floppy disks, and wondered how that was possible. Then it dawned on me..... AOL is sending out CDs now." - me (Remove obvious portion if replying by email.)
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: 8 Jan 1999 21:55:37 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <776gf9$27i$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 1999 02:55:44 GMT In article <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net>, cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote: > Apple has been strongly encouraging developers to write Yellow Box apps, It has?
Message-ID: <3696D1D2.11CC6E53@home.com> From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: omni retaliation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 03:49:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:49:42 PDT While messing around with RDR2 Intel, I noticed that I was heavily dependent on viewing html in omniweb. As a protest to the pricing/positioning of MOSXS, I think it would be pretty evil (in a good way) if omni refused to license omniweb to MOSXS server users, forcing them to view graphical html files through the blue box. Webobjects developers working on PPC wouldn't probably like this. That would be a huge pain in the ass for Apple, and would probably get the point across. At the very least, omni could bluff for a couple weeks and send some mean letters to Jobs. It won't happen, but if I was master of the universe, I'd like to see it done. ari arikounavis@home.com
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <3696B91B.C9127861@bigsky.net> Control: cancel <3696B91B.C9127861@bigsky.net> Date: 09 Jan 1999 03:03:24 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.3696B91B.C9127861@bigsky.net> Sender: Al Ward <scrapdog@bigsky.net> Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X Server Date: 8 Jan 1999 21:23:41 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Message-ID: <775t0t$1le@news1.panix.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <770p9t$6k6$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0801991534580001@wil93.dol.net> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:34:58 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >> If you compare this to $0 that Linux costs, INCLUDING development tools... > >But not WebObjects or AppleShare or Yellow Box or Blue Box. ^^^^^^^^^^ > Linux (as well as other Unix systems) can share files to Macs using AppleShare.
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: 9 Jan 1999 04:20:52 GMT Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc. Message-ID: <776lf4$brb@ns2.alink.net> References: <776h99$r0r@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> writes: > cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote in message ... > >What am I missing? Dr Prabhakar, where are you? > > I regret to inform you that Ernie seems to have been assimilated. (I had > feared that might happen when he took the position.) As Winnie-The-Pooh > might say, "You never can tell with Reality Distortion Fields." > > Greg To merge two threads: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes: > Near the end of the BOF, one of the Apple guys said "We'll continue to > provide you with information you need to make your business plans." > If that wasn't the low point, it was pretty close :-). Ernie Prabakhar made that statement. Mike Barthelemy
Message-ID: <3696D316.ABE8E66D@home.com> From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: omni retaliation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 03:55:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:55:06 PDT While messing around with RDR2 Intel, I noticed that I was heavily dependent on viewing html in omniweb. As a protest to the pricing/positioning of MOSXS, I think it would be pretty evil (in a good way) if omni refused to license omniweb to MOSXS server users, forcing them to view graphical html files through the blue box. Webobjects developers working on PPC wouldn't probably like this. That would be a huge pain in the ass for Apple, and would probably get the point across. At the very least, omni could bluff for a couple weeks and send some mean letters to Jobs. It won't happen, but if I was master of the universe, I'd like to see it done. ari arikounavis@home.com
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: omni retaliation Date: 9 Jan 1999 05:03:37 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <776nv9$lrn$1@news.xmission.com> References: <3696D316.ABE8E66D@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 1999 05:03:37 GMT Ari <arikounavis@home.com> wrote: > [...] I think it would be pretty evil (in a > good way) if omni refused to license omniweb to MOSXS server users, > [...]. > It won't happen, but if I was master of the universe, I'd like to see > it done. It will *never* happen. Omni doesn't do things that way; they'll work with what they're given and turn it to their advantage. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 17:09:03 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:33:18 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >In article <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >(jedi) wrote: > >> On 07 Jan 1999 12:57:44 PST, Jim Naylor <jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam> >wrote: >> >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >> >(jedi) wrote: >> > >> > >> >> $$$ >> >> >> >>[deletia] >> >> >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. >> > >> >It's nice to know (not that it matters much) what's *really* important >to you. >> >> I have flown to Europe (round trip) for what an iMac would >> cost me relative to it's real PC peers. > >Really? Then how do you explain that the iMac is less expensive than the >comparable Celeron "value" system in the Dell catalog I received >yesterday. > > >Unless someone's _paying_ you to go to Europe, this is nonsense. Only you mac users seriously think that the iMac is really comparable to any open architecture PC. For what an iMac is meant to do, a $500 is a more than adequate substitution. Ironically enough, we're taking your target market more into account than you are. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: 9 Jan 1999 04:30:22 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <915856222.353818@watserv5.uwaterloo.ca> References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> <776h99$r0r@shelob.afs.com> Cache-Post-Path: watserv5.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <776h99$r0r@shelob.afs.com>, Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote: >cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote in message ... >>What am I missing? Dr Prabhakar, where are you? > >I regret to inform you that Ernie seems to have been assimilated. Sad to se Dr. Ernie "go". I wonder if all "insider" ex-NeXTers have done likewise? I have a hunch not... -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775rgr$1o8$1@crib.corepower.com> Message-ID: <36967cba.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 8 Jan 99 21:46:34 GMT Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: > In article <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > In <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > > > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in support > > > of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. > > Hmmm, seems one needs to re-read the mythical man month! > The GNUstep project is probably somewhat different. The whole API is > already designed and specified, meaning that developers can work more > independently coding pieces of it; it's probably more parallelizable > than a project designed from scratch. So has anyone decided to drop Display Ghostscript in favor of a function-based, non-interpreted graphics engine? Seems that'd make the most sense, and perhaps a lot easier.
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Final Cut web page Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:34:29 -0800 Organization: Net Squared, Inc. Message-ID: <776qtm$4rr$1@your.mother.com> References: <775kf9$120$1@your.mother.com> <1dlbyzk.14at2a21o2768N@mp-215-175.daxnet.no> Thomas Sivertsen wrote in message <1dlbyzk.14at2a21o2768N@mp-215-175.daxnet.no>... >They bought that and several developers from Macromedia. >One of them was the guy behind Adobe Premiere. Thanks for the correction. I couldn't quite remember. I wonder what the contract obligations were on those programmers? Todd
Message-ID: <36968138.8579D3D8@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <915742371.171227@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <0sbl2.14881$kR5.19187@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 22:21:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:21:48 PDT Jean-Paul Samson wrote: > On 01/07/99, David Evans wrote: > > Guess I should get my butt in gear and buy 4.2 while it's > > available. > > [snip ] > > > I remember Steve Jobs at one time saying that, during their visit to > Xerox to see the first windowing user interfaces, that they were blown > away and decided to make the Macintosh to harness this new way of > doing things. What he admittedly missed, so overwhelmed by the > graphical aspects, was the object-oriented implementation underneath. > This realization he remedied with NeXTSTEP. Now, ten years later, it > seems like he's backtracking with Apple effectively ignoring what I > think are some of the best designed object-oriented frameworks > available. > There's really not much Obj-C can do to sell more Mac's. NeXT 's heroic efforts to haul unwashed masses of C programmers over the learning curve failed to mainstream Obj-C . Java people _want_ to learn. Java is ubiquitous. And Java will sell Apple products. A positive side-effect of Java is its hunger for faster processors and C++ syntax. Obj-C simply can't compete for the Java dollar feature x feature. The frameworks don't change, they remain. Obj-C support will disappear which is a problem for those who don't have leverage/bucks for Apple to support their Obj-C needs. The impossible is when Obj-C frameworks are Java rewritten. Irregardless, Apple's technology roadmap changes decimate business plans everytime they change. Developers continue to be exposed to significant risks while no marketshare equity exists for their favorite technology. That's the difference between ID Software and "the rest of us" (pun intended). -r
Message-ID: <369689FE.CE713F91@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: COMMENTARY: Inducement to Buy References: <19990107152452.20407.00009002@ng97.aol.com> <7737rn$dig$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 22:59:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:59:16 PDT Michael Giddings wrote: > In <19990107152452.20407.00009002@ng97.aol.com> MerefBast wrote: > > COMMENTARY: > > > > In January of 1997, Apple computers promised that their operating > > system > > code named "Rhapsody" would run on ALL computer models that they were > > shipping > > at that time and any computer models they introduced after that date, as > > well > > as on some unspecified number of Intel Pentium/x86-based computers. > > > > As a California corporation, Apple Computers comes under California > > consumer > > protection laws and that promise is legally considered an "inducement to > > buy". > > At that time, Apple had not yet started shipping any G3-based computers. > > > > I have seriously wondered about that. People have made the excuse for > Apple that those promises were made under a different CEO. But in the eyes > of the law that doesn't change things. The corporation made certain > promises (which induced people to invest in Apple hardware) that are > clearly not going to be kept. > > However, I think the case for "inducement" with respect to Rhapsody/Intel > is a bit more tenuous. Promising Intel support probably didn't induce > anyone to buy Apple hardware (or did it? that could be an interesting > argument...) However, promising Intel support and having developers rely > on that promise to develop software, and then have that yanked from under > them - maybe there's something there. > Damages... that is made difficult to establish. Developer's have a bonafide market for any Intel application they created courtesy of cross-platform compiling. And Apple never took away an Intel market that Rhapsody Developer's ever enjoyed. Detrimental reliance is provable for the right set of circumstances. There may exist several cases of software developer's losing investments, market opportunity and financial backing as a result of Apple's failure. To the extent software developer's are detrimentally reliant upon Apple's cross-platform Intel release, a case could be made. But the legal case is mute on monetary award, anyway. Legal case arguments would leverage for releasing CR1 Intel, alledgedly promised. Shessh, where's John Kheit when you need him...? -r
From: lesbolover@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: What's so horrible about them??? Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 07:49:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7771ll$p70$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <3687EE76.D60F651@ix.netcom.com> <B2ADA8DA-98E5B@204.31.112.229> <36896553.1657A784@ix.netcom.com> <petrich-2912980909320001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <stevehix-2912981933060001@192.168.1.10> In article <stevehix-2912981933060001@192.168.1.10>, stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote: > > In article <36896553.1657A784@ix.netcom.com>, Z1159 > <z1159@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > > > > > What kind of article purports to discuss new operating systems and > > > ignores Linux,FreeBSD,Plan 9/Eclipse,BeOS and QNX and wastes space > > > instead on those parallel butt polyps MacOS and Windows? > > One that intends to discuss personal computer OS's that are > most likely to affect the most people. > > (Sure sounds like Fnarky is back...) > Heil Hitler! -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 02:56:37 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: BM Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > I think what galls NEXTSTEP developers the most is knowing, in our heart of > hearts, that this is really terrific technology. What about YB living vicariously via WebObjects? **** Ziya
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:21:42 -0700 Organization: Stone Entertainment Message-ID: <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> In article <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: (snip) > I think that this isn't the case. Those "Mac developers" who don't > particularly care to deal with Yellow Box are those Mac developers who are > actually Mac and *Windows* developers, e.g., Microsoft, Adobe, Macromind, > etc., all of whom want to use the Carbon API because they have millions of > lines of code tied up with cross-platform applications that use > non-YB/OpenStep coding practices. Carbon is targeted at them. They are > MAJOR software developers for the Mac, but in terms of actual numbers of > bodies involved, there aren't that many of them. The fact that one of the first YellowBox apps available for MacOS X Server upon its release will be Photoshop 5.0 sort of contradicts your statement. I believe once MacOS X Consumer is released in the latter half of this year, the Yellow Box is sure to become the main programming environment for the Macintosh platform. The transition from the MacOS BlueBox to the YellowBox will be much like the transition from 68k to PowerPC... even in respect to it requiring new hardware for most users. -Kevin Stone "To err is human. You need a computer to really fuc& thinks up." - Cyber City Oedo
From: "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:23:42 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <7773li$up$1@camel18.mindspring.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> , "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: > I agree with much of what Scott says. However, I take issue with this > statement: > > ".... We've also seen that the Macintosh developer community still holds > significant distain for the product and for the OpenStep community." > > > I think that this isn't the case. Those "Mac developers" who don't > particularly care to deal with Yellow Box are those Mac developers who are > actually Mac and *Windows* developers, e.g., Microsoft, Adobe, Macromind, > etc., all of whom want to use the Carbon API because they have millions of > lines of code tied up with cross-platform applications that use > non-YB/OpenStep coding practices. Carbon is targeted at them. They are > MAJOR software developers for the Mac, but in terms of actual numbers of > bodies involved, there aren't that many of them. There are tens of thousands of Mac developers with Mac code out there. Most of them already have their software cross-platform and most of the ones that don't have a good reason. Your company doesn't have to be as big as Microsoft or Adobe for this to be true. > > The average *independent* Mac developer (Mac-first/Mac-only) is VERY > interested in YB/OpenStep coding. HOWEVER, judging by what has been said on > AIMED-TALK (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and > Developers), independent developers have concerns with long-term viability, > cross-platform attainability, etc. Mac users simply do not understand how > horrified developers were when various Mac technologies were canceled after > literally YEARS of hype. Most Mac users don't know how much time is spent > mastering an API and developing products around that API, and how many > millions of dollars worth of time have been wasted and/or by independent > Mac developers who trusted Apple to do what they said they would in the > first place. true, there is always a learning curve. One has to evaluate the ROI of learning any new technology. > > THOSE developers would, for the most part, like to use OpenStep/YB coding > practices, but are very skittish about jumping into the water again after > losing several fingers and toes to the last managerial cost-cutting shark > that swam by. That's not "distain," that's merely sane business practice. > I disagree. I don't think there is much disdain for YB in the Mac development community, I just think a lot of Mac developers don't really see the point of YellowBox. They are already using an object oriented framework, either a C++ one like MacApp or PowerPlant, or Java, or something else. Point is, the lack of interest among Mac developers in YB is because it solves problems that they don't have. I think YB advocates tend to overlook or discount this fact. -mark
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 9 Jan 1999 05:09:23 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <776oa3$kgb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <36967cba.0@news.depaul.edu> <19990108202917.05605.00004784@ng-ch1.aol.com> WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote: : You can check for a status report on this at <www.gnustep.org> though : this may not be up-to-date--they've been awfully busy coding and too : busy I believe to keep the web site current. The unofficial site is also worth a look: http://gnustep.current.nu/ John
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan9002624@slave.doubleu.com> References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> In-reply-to: cleric@yale.graduate.net's message of 9 Jan 1999 02:40:28 GMT Date: 9 Jan 99 00:26:24 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:59:34 PDT In article <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net>, cleric@yale.graduate.net writes: Apple has been strongly encouraging developers to write Yellow Box apps, and now we find ourselves in the bizzare situation that the only reasonably priced mechanism for deploying those apps might be to use Windows NT/98 for clients! Do you know something I don't know? The only deployment platform I'm aware of is OpenStep4.2/NT, and that's pretty marginal from a "reasonably priced" standpoint. The only YellowBox/NT that I'm aware of is in WebObjects4.0/NT, and so far as I'm aware WebObjects doesn't contain a license for deploying the YellowBox/NT portion. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan8235223@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <915742371.171227@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <0sbl2.14881$kR5.19187@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <SCOTT.99Jan7172531@slave.doubleu.com> <joe.ragosta-0801991536070001@wil93.dol.net> In-reply-to: joe.ragosta@dol.net's message of Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:36:07 -0500 Date: 8 Jan 99 23:52:23 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:59:33 PDT In article <joe.ragosta-0801991536070001@wil93.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes: In article <SCOTT.99Jan7172531@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > In article <0sbl2.14881$kR5.19187@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com>, > Jean-Paul Samson <jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca> writes: > But Apple's effectively saying that we have to buy the hardware > _first_, _then_ evaluate it. Or, there's the other option. Buy ONE PowerMac to evaluate it. After all, you were only going to evaluate it on one PC, right? Then, if you like it, replace the entire team's systems. With MacOS X Server/Intel, we'd probably have one person start evaluating it, but we'd likely get multiple copies so that others can, too (our developers are distributed, so one copy doesn't suffice). We'd do the evaluation on existing hardware that's already comfortably setup for such purposes, that already runs OpenStep/Mach. It's highly likely that there would be _zero_ setup concerns, because it would fit right in the place that OpenStep/Mach already fit. For all that people poo-poo the overhead of buying a new machine, it's an overhead. You need an entire new machine, with monitor, you need to find places to put it, you need to get it integrated into the network, and just generally spend more time screwing around with things before you even start evaluating it. You're spending more money and more time, without getting a substantially different evaluation experience. Let me put it another way. We've got a comfortable groove going. The correct way to redirect us would be to lure us in the direction they want us to go with a carrot, not to try to whack us out of the groove with a stick. Buying a PowerMac and evaluating there is great if you're really quite certain you want to target MacOS X. It's not so great if you suspect that MacOS X Server is more hype than substance. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> In-reply-to: Michael's message of Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:23:35 -0500 Date: 9 Jan 99 00:06:02 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:59:33 PDT In article <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> Michael <michael@tone.ca> writes: Greg Anderson wrote: > Every recent decision seems calculated to flush the few remaining > YB developers so no one will be standing to compete with their > new Best Buddies from Redmond when the consumer version ships. > "Kill the baby," indeed. I understand why it is being done from a > business perspective, but I hope my friends inside NeXT/Apple > feel ashamed about what has happened. If I was Apple I'd be very concerned about unleashing an OS without the familiar Mac interface but with "MacOS" as part of it's name on it's unsophisticated users at a price point they could afford. The fall-out could get nasty. Do you this is why they're doing what they're doing, or are there other reasons? Apple seems to understand that they can't just continue riding MacOS 8.x forever. MacOS is very mature, and does what it does well, enough, but it's not going to suddenly start surging ahead on the technical front. The obvious solution over the past year has appeared to be to use Carbon to retain as much of that MacOS 8.x maturity as they can, while transitioning to YellowBox to provide the kick that will get things moving up and forward again. To my mind this implies that they should at minimum try not to alienate the few remaining NeXT developers. They don't have to coddle us - we're still around, we can take care of ourselves. They just need to stop trying to damage us. I don't delude myself that the NeXT developers are somehow super-developers compared to MacOS developers. The NeXT developers should be Apple's ace in the hole, though. The NeXT developers know YellowBox _now_, they know Mach _now_, they know Unix _now_. Without the NeXT developers, Apple will spend the next two or three years riding Carbon, while waiting for MacOS developers to come up to speed. With the NeXT developers, Apple had a ready-made core, that would give incentive to their MacOS developers to move along, and provide a knowledge base for those MacOS developers to build on. If they manage to drive all the NeXT developers away, YellowBox will simply implode due to lack of mindshare, and they'll be left with MacOS running over Unix, with no compelling arguments for non-Mac developers. The lack of MacOS X Server/Intel and a clear direction on YellowBox/NT isn't a killer problem. But if they had handled the transition better (by _providing_ a transition), they'd only be losing perhaps half as many of the remaining developers as they appear to be. And given that there are perhaps 40 top-notch NeXT developers left out there, they can't afford to be doing that. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Organization: Is a sign of weakness Distribution: world Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> In-reply-to: giddings@nospam.genetics.utah.edu's message of 8 Jan 1999 19:00:55 GMT Date: 9 Jan 99 00:14:15 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:59:34 PDT In article <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>, giddings@nospam.genetics.utah.edu (Michael Giddings) writes: In <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote: > In <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server > > in support of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much > > more quickly. > > Hmmm, seems one needs to re-read the mythical man month! I'll admit I haven't read it. However, I have a pretty good understanding of the principle, having managed several software projects involving multiple developers. However, I am not in agreement that the argument necessarily applies to open-source projects. Simply look at the progression of linux: it has clearly benefitted by the _large_ number of people working on it. And one of the reasons for that is there are many people working on different aspects of it. Sure it applies to Linux. The premise of the Mythical Man Month is that if you have 100 people working on a project, and add another 100 people, it won't get done twice as fast, it might even take longer. But what if you add 10000 people to the project? Perhaps then it will get done twice as fast, just by raw luck, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> In-reply-to: John Rudd's message of Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:17:53 -0800 Date: 9 Jan 99 00:19:58 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:59:34 PDT In article <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com>, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> writes: Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, I'm not a developer, and even if I was I couldn't > have made it to MWSF anyway... > > These seems to be a lot of commotion on this group about OPENSTEP > being dead, and GNUSTEP as an alternative. I haven't heard > anything about this from anyone, and none of the discussion on > this group seems to have openly stated "It's DEAD!". It's not that Apple has said that YB is dead. It's that they've said (or strongly implied?) that MacOS-X Server for Intel is dead before delivery, that they intend to move away from Objective-C toward Java, etc. I think the reason that the NeXT community is taking this as "Openstep is dead" is not that the API is dead, but that it is currently demphasized until after Carbon This hits my understanding _right_ on the head. At the BOF, they ("they"==Apple people) said that they were reevaluating where YellowBox/NT fits in their business plan, or something to that effect. At WWDC last May, the line was that they were working on a $20 YellowBox/NT deployment package, and were hoping to have something in six months or so. My read is that Apple has decided that it's a hardware company, and that extraneous stuff like YellowBox/NT will just have to wait. In terms of the next year, this is probably a very good decision. In terms of the next five years, this is probably a very bad decision. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:18:22 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?= Message-ID: <1dld3mw.375wiu1phs0x4N@mp-37-132.daxnet.no> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote: [SNIP] > The fact that one of the first YellowBox apps available for MacOS X Server > upon its release will be Photoshop 5.0 sort of contradicts your > statement. Exscuse me, but where did you hear about PS 5.0 for YB? They have shown it on Carbon, but that`s different. I can`T imagine how they`ve managed a port to YB in such a short time. Last I heard was that it would take 6-8 months, not including QA. Any pointers greatly appreciated, of course. -- Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <zxHl2.6391$XY6.148404@news.san.rr.com> Subject: Re: Advanced Mac UI? Message-ID: <FzHl2.6393$XY6.148111@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:02:09 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 04:02:45 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Ed Deans. wrote in message ... [...] >Any idea what happened to the advanced UE/UI? Is it delayed until the MOSX >client? Is it a victim along with DPS, Newton, OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, >QuickDraw Conferencing, CommonPoint, People, Places, and Things and on and Oops. That's "QuickTime Conferencing" not Quick_Draw_. >on over at the Apple technology graveyard? Sorry. --Ed.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Advanced Mac UI? Message-ID: <zxHl2.6391$XY6.148404@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 03:59:55 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 04:00:31 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA While trying to figure what I'll have to pick from if there is indeed no MOSX[S]/Intel, I was looking over some of my old Rhapsody stuff and kept noticing "Advanced Macintosh User Experience" or similar terms. I didn't see anything in the Mac OS X Server demo that appeared advanced. If it's shipping next month I presume that the majority of UE/UI changes are completed. So the advanced part (over what 8.5 has) is what, Services? Elsewhere (over at ibm.com) I noticed something... Is this a return of the 'People, Places and Things' metaphor intended to replace the "stale" Mac UI, post-Copland? Is this the latest incarnation of the IBM "PictureWorld" concept that inspired Apple to use the desktop metaphor in the Finder's "Lisa Office System" ancestor? http://www.ibm.com/ibm/easy/design/lower/f040101.html Anyone recall the 3D Finder R&D'd by Apple's ATG? Any idea what happened to the advanced UE/UI? Is it delayed until the MOSX client? Is it a victim along with DPS, Newton, OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, QuickDraw Conferencing, CommonPoint, People, Places, and Things and on and on over at the Apple technology graveyard? --Ed.
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:21:58 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0901990921580001@elk61.dol.net> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> In article <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net>, stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote: > In article <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211>, "Lawson English" > <english@primenet.com> wrote: > (snip) > > I think that this isn't the case. Those "Mac developers" who don't > > particularly care to deal with Yellow Box are those Mac developers who are > > actually Mac and *Windows* developers, e.g., Microsoft, Adobe, Macromind, > > etc., all of whom want to use the Carbon API because they have millions of > > lines of code tied up with cross-platform applications that use > > non-YB/OpenStep coding practices. Carbon is targeted at them. They are > > MAJOR software developers for the Mac, but in terms of actual numbers of > > bodies involved, there aren't that many of them. > > The fact that one of the first YellowBox apps available for MacOS X Server > upon its release will be Photoshop 5.0 sort of contradicts your > statement. Really? When did that happen? Last I heard, Photoshop wasn't going YB. They _are_ doing Carbon, though. Tiffany will be the premiere YB graphics app. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:26:27 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> In article <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: > On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:33:18 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > >In article <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet > >(jedi) wrote: > > > >> On 07 Jan 1999 12:57:44 PST, Jim Naylor <jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam> > >wrote: > >> >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet > >> >(jedi) wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> >> $$$ > >> >> > >> >>[deletia] > >> >> > >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. > >> > > >> >It's nice to know (not that it matters much) what's *really* important > >to you. > >> > >> I have flown to Europe (round trip) for what an iMac would > >> cost me relative to it's real PC peers. > > > >Really? Then how do you explain that the iMac is less expensive than the > >comparable Celeron "value" system in the Dell catalog I received > >yesterday. > > > > > >Unless someone's _paying_ you to go to Europe, this is nonsense. > > Only you mac users seriously think that the iMac > is really comparable to any open architecture PC. > For what an iMac is meant to do, a $500 is a more > than adequate substitution. > > Ironically enough, we're taking your target market > more into account than you are. Ironically, you're comparing a worthless piece of trash to a high quality name brand system -- and can't tell the difference. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 9 Jan 1999 09:52:54 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <777qg6$3p8$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> <7773li$up$1@camel18.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 1999 14:53:07 GMT In article <7773li$up$1@camel18.mindspring.com>, "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote: > I just think a lot of Mac developers don't really see > the point of YellowBox. They are already using an object oriented framework, > either a C++ one like MacApp or PowerPlant, or Java, or something else. Switching to YB isn't a really great move if you have lots of code invested. But if you are developing a new app, then YB is better than any of the frameworks you listed, and Apple should be pushing that fact and using it to encourage new development on the platform.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Advanced Mac UI? Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:30:01 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p177.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369775F8.7E1BB492@tone.ca> References: <zxHl2.6391$XY6.148404@news.san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 1999 15:29:21 GMT "Ed Deans." wrote: > While trying to figure what I'll have to pick from if there is indeed no > MOSX[S]/Intel, I was looking over some of my old Rhapsody stuff and kept > noticing "Advanced Macintosh User Experience" or similar terms. > > I didn't see anything in the Mac OS X Server demo that appeared advanced. > If it's shipping next month I presume that the majority of UE/UI changes are > completed. > So the advanced part (over what 8.5 has) is what, Services? > > Elsewhere (over at ibm.com) I noticed something... > > Is this a return of the 'People, Places and Things' metaphor intended to > replace the "stale" Mac UI, post-Copland? > > Is this the latest incarnation of the IBM "PictureWorld" concept that > inspired Apple to use the desktop metaphor in the Finder's "Lisa Office > System" ancestor? > > http://www.ibm.com/ibm/easy/design/lower/f040101.html > > Anyone recall the 3D Finder R&D'd by Apple's ATG? > > Any idea what happened to the advanced UE/UI? Is it delayed until the MOSX > client? Is it a victim along with DPS, Newton, OpenDoc, QuickDraw GX, > QuickDraw Conferencing, CommonPoint, People, Places, and Things and on and > on over at the Apple technology graveyard? > > --Ed. I assume much of the work to be done between MacOSX Server and MacOSX involves getting the UI right. And that the main reason there is no client version of MacOSXS is not wanting to let the current interface out amongst the unwashed Mac user masses Michael monner
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <casper-0901991334400001@192.168.1.3> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:34:40 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:35:24 CDT In article <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net>, 1050pi@netscape.net wrote: >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2181941,00.html > >"Compaq will offer a "Networked Home in a Box," which includes two >personal computers, color monitors and a color printer for under >$2,500." > >Apple could do that, too, and probably cheaper if it were smart. > >As it is, Corel or Acer will endup making boatloads of money using >Linux and something like KDE to create a super-cheap "Home Area >Network in a Box." Because Apple's marketing department doesn't have a clue of how to sell computers. All it would take for Apple to duplicate this feature that Compaq is advertising is a little bit of marketing glitz added on to their existing products. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> Customer: "I'm running Windows '95." Tech Support: "Yes." Customer: "My computer isn't working now." Tech Support: "Yes, you said that." (Pete Zimowski)
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:42:45 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:43:27 CDT In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: <SNIP> > > $$$ > >[deletia] > > That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. In other words you bought a Windows based system because it was cheaper than a Mac. This is an age old arguement from both sides of the computing platform debate. Windows fans say, "Macs are too expensive." Mac fans start in with the, "So is a BMW." My take on it? You get what you pay for. Always have, always will. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> Macintosh - we might not get everything right, but at least we knew the century was going to end.'
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <casper-0901991350170001@192.168.1.3> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <nhwk2.659$K12.88561@news.shore.net> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:50:14 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:50:59 CDT Do you have them from two different cable companies or are they from the same company? Because if they are from the same company and you really think that you have twice the bandwidth available than your neighbor who has one cable modem you are sadly uneducated. The extra IP address is nice, but that's the only benefit that I can see to a second cable modem the way the cable companies have their network infrastructure designed. In article <nhwk2.659$K12.88561@news.shore.net>, "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> wrote: >Which is why I have two cable modems... > > >Bill F. > >> A 'smoking' CPU and a nifty case isn't going to do squat >> for the prime cause of slow surfing: a slow modem. >> >> >>-- >> Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats >> >>Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| >>is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ >>as soon as your grip slips. >> >> In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> INTEL LEARNS THAT THE TRUTH HURTS Engineers at Intel called Adobe all in a huff about Apple's new ad campaign that shows a snail carrying an Intel Pentium II chip. Their grievance, in particular, was the on-screen disclaimer-sized statistic that shows that in Photoshop tests Apple's G3 was nearly twice as fast as Intel's Pentium II chip. The engineers were crying foul (asserting that the tests were, perhaps rigged) and asked Adobe (who offers Photoshop for both Mac and Windows) to perform the speed tests themselves so they (Intel) might get an unbiased result. Well, big mistake for Intel. Adobe agreed and according to Adobe's own in-house Photoshop test, "Apple had actually UNDERSTATED the performance gap between the G3 and the Pentium II."
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT Message-ID: <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:06 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: >In article <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, > philh@vision25.demon.co.uk wrote: > >> I don't know what. I doubt if many (any?) Linux users are waiting for >> free Eudora. They have already got lots of free mail programs, e.g. Pine >> and Netscape. > >And Elm and Balsa and KMail...there are probably more free email programs for >Linux than there are commercial email programs for Windows. But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? >MJP Regards Anthony -- =============================================================== |'All kids love log!' | | Ren & Stimpy | ===============================================================
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <SLNl2.1235$Ge3.6505804@news.itd.umich.edu> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:03:52 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:05:22 EDT Kevin Stone wrote in message ... >In article <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211>, "Lawson English" ><english@primenet.com> wrote: > >The fact that one of the first YellowBox apps available for MacOS X Server >upon its release will be Photoshop 5.0 sort of contradicts your >statement. I believe once MacOS X Consumer is released in the latter half >of this year, the Yellow Box is sure to become the main programming >environment for the Macintosh platform. The transition from the MacOS >BlueBox to the YellowBox will be much like the transition from 68k to >PowerPC... even in respect to it requiring new hardware for most users. > There's been no indication that Photoshop 5.0 is being/will be ported to the YellowBox. Only Adobe application that's known to be in transition for OS X is the upcoming application code named K2, which is a page-layout software. Also, K2 isn't being written in YellowBox. It is a Carbon application. The fact that Adobe is writing their completely new application with very little, if any, code base invested into the classic MacOS ToolBox is a good indication that YellowBox isn't yet on Adobe's radar. Photoshop 6.0, which is the upcoming revision, is surely being "twicked" for Carbon rather than being rewritten in YellowBox. After all, Apple has changed their stratege from what was defined in Rhapsody to OS X to please Adobe and the like who were not willing to move their legacy applications into YellowBox. It's hard to imagine that any of the "classic" MacOS developers, who have invested so much in the ToolBox (soon to be transitioned to Carbon), will rewrite their legacy apps in YellowBox. We can only hope that they see the advantages of YellowBox and write their _new_ apps in YellowBox. Is that happening? None that I'm aware of. - Jin Kim
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Date: 9 Jan 1999 19:21:55 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> The following is a little Apple Watching, and not meant as any more than a few random thoughts: A little while back, I made the prediction that MacOS X Server would show up for Intel, but would be priced prohibitively: http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=382658652 The Intel release ended up being not at all. I think the interesting thing, in retrospect, is the smooth way Apple changed directions: - first a roughly equal PPC/Intel strategy - then a PPC stratety with one Intel release - then no Intel release They achieved a big change in strategy without any real shockwaves. I know the pain is felt here, but I don't see it in the popular press. The press is still talking about a successful new strategy, etc. I think this leads to an interesting question: - Which of today's strategies are in the same way transitional? From Apple's perspective, MacOS X Server seems kind of well placed. Its price and features make it attractive to established Mac shops. It can fill a variety of server roles. At the same time, it won't end up on too many end-user desktops. I guess MacOS X Server, in that role, could be a final strategy. The dangerous question is "why did they keep it off desktops?" The dangerous answer might be "they don't want to maintain an upgrade path for the long term." Ever since Steve took over, I've seen Apple as a big ship turning. I wonder if we are on the final course. John Final Cynical Note: Aren't Blueberry, Grape, Tangerine, Lime, and Strawberry all ... like ... KoolAid flavors?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy From: whistle@twcny.rr.com (Paul E Larson) Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> Message-ID: <T_Nl2.27319$m7.4081@newsr2.twcny.rr.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:28:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:21:23 EDT Organization: TWC Syracuse NY In article <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: >In article <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> , > >>> Only you mac users seriously think that the iMac >>> is really comparable to any open architecture PC. >>> For what an iMac is meant to do, a $500 is a more >>> than adequate substitution. >>> >>> Ironically enough, we're taking your target market >>> more into account than you are. >> >> Ironically, you're comparing a worthless piece of trash to a high quality >> name brand system -- and can't tell the difference. >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Joe Ragosta > >Ironically, 'taking your target market more into account' also means not bad >mouthing mac hardware while promoting the under $500 'worthless piece of >trash' systems that some ex-Next people believe is better than the iMac. > I thought he was referring to the iMac as the worthless piece of trash, which would have been ironic coming from such a big Apple advocate. iMac - Pet Rocks switched at birth, you decide. Paul Get rid of the blahs to email me :}
From: david_@ucla.edu (David Kurtz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:12:00 -0800 Organization: Independent sentient carbon-based unit Message-ID: <david_-0901991112010001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > In article <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet > (jedi) wrote: > > Ironically enough, we're taking your target market > > more into account than you are. > > Ironically, you're comparing a worthless piece of trash to a high quality > name brand system -- and can't tell the difference. Pearls before swine and all that.... -- David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy From: whistle@twcny.rr.com (Paul E Larson) Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> Message-ID: <57Ol2.27341$m7.4081@newsr2.twcny.rr.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:37:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:30:09 EDT Organization: TWC Syracuse NY In article <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >(jedi) wrote: > ><SNIP> >> >> $$$ >> >>[deletia] >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. > > In other words you bought a Windows based system because it was cheaper >than a Mac. This is an age old arguement from both sides of the computing >platform debate. Windows fans say, "Macs are too expensive." Mac fans You forgot the total expression, it is - "Apples PC's are too expensive, compared to a similarly configured x86 PC". Always have been probably always will. Paul >start in with the, "So is a BMW." > My take on it? You get what you pay for. Always have, always will. > True, and everyone that buys the iMac is getting EXACTLY what they paid for. An overpriced and underpowered coffee table PC. Paul Get rid of the blahs to email me :}
From: hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com (Hugh Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Date: 9 Jan 1999 19:44:15 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-0901991344300001@254.minneapolis-21-22rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <3692ad42.0@news.depaul.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan7135206@slave.doubleu.com> <iPpl2.469$S02.7477@homer.alpha.net> <SCOTT.99Jan8092334@slave.doubleu.com> In article <SCOTT.99Jan8092334@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > > Besides, waging a war of attrition against your own developers can't > be a good idea, under _any_ set of assumptions. Don't kid yourself > that this is only happening on the NeXT side of things, either, Isn't there supposed to be a big ADC campaign to court new young school-age developers now? I guess the beast needs fresh meat. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:25:41 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:25:42 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> , >> Only you mac users seriously think that the iMac >> is really comparable to any open architecture PC. >> For what an iMac is meant to do, a $500 is a more >> than adequate substitution. >> >> Ironically enough, we're taking your target market >> more into account than you are. > > Ironically, you're comparing a worthless piece of trash to a high quality > name brand system -- and can't tell the difference. > > -- > Regards, > > Joe Ragosta Ironically, 'taking your target market more into account' also means not bad mouthing mac hardware while promoting the under $500 'worthless piece of trash' systems that some ex-Next people believe is better than the iMac. You want Apple to be sympathetic to your plight while you constantly belittle their hardware. It's like you're saying give me my YB on Intel and to hell with the rest of your products. I sure this sits very well with the old guard Apple folks. -- You will know fear. Then you will know pain. Then you will come back to the MacOS (X). soup
From: jmuccigr@drew.edu (John D. Muccigrosso) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:23:23 -0500 Organization: Drew University Message-ID: <jmuccigr-0901991623230001@pc164-167.drew.edu> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <casper-0901991347500001@192.168.1.3> In article <casper-0901991347500001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: >In article <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net>, >joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > >>In article <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >>(jedi) wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:33:18 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >>> >In article <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >>> >(jedi) wrote: >>> > >>> >> On 07 Jan 1999 12:57:44 PST, Jim Naylor <jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam> >>> >wrote: >>> >> >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >>> >> >(jedi) wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >> $$$ >>> >> >> >>> >> >>[deletia] >>> >> >> >>> >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. >>> >> > >>> >> >It's nice to know (not that it matters much) what's *really* important >>> >to you. >>> >> >>> >> I have flown to Europe (round trip) for what an iMac would >>> >> cost me relative to it's real PC peers. >>> > >>> >Really? Then how do you explain that the iMac is less expensive than the >>> >comparable Celeron "value" system in the Dell catalog I received At the risk of being redundant, I would like to make two comments. First, if it ever occurs to you to say "I could build my own computer for less" and are even remotely capable of doing this, you are not the target market for the iMac. (A slightly less accurate formulation of this would be "If you post to newsgroups like this one...".) I think those that have experience dealing with large numbers of average users would agree that the overwhelming majority of them greet even the relatively simple task of adding more RAM with some trepidation. The iMac is made for these people who are willing to pay something for that convenience and peace of mind. Power is not an issue for most of these people. The iMac is powerful enough. In general, I think you might consider that Apple sells computers like Detroit sells cars. You have a few options (models, power, add-ons, color(!)), but basically you have to buy what they sell you. You can't build you own. This is no problem for the car industry (most would say), and may in turn reflect a relative immaturity in the computer industry. My second point is that calculations of cost should include the cost of ownership over the lifetime of the computer and not only its purchase price. Of course we don't know what this will be for the iMac or newer wintel products, but if history is any guide, the apple products will cost much less over their lifetimes. John D. Muccigrosso Classics Department jmuccigr@drew.edu Drew University Voice (973) 408-3029 Madison, NJ 07940 FAX (973) 408-3150 http://www.depts.drew.edu/~classics/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:10:33 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79fhe9.tn6.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:06 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: > >>In article <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, >> philh@vision25.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >>> I don't know what. I doubt if many (any?) Linux users are waiting for >>> free Eudora. They have already got lots of free mail programs, e.g. Pine >>> and Netscape. >> >>And Elm and Balsa and KMail...there are probably more free email programs for >>Linux than there are commercial email programs for Windows. > >But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use >Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? Actually, the latest leafnode is on par with Agent these days in the offline spool category. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:50:04 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79fjoc.tn6.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:42:45 -0500, Tim Scoff <casper@nb.net> wrote: >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >(jedi) wrote: > ><SNIP> >> >> $$$ >> >>[deletia] >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. > > In other words you bought a Windows based system because it was cheaper Actually, I bought an Atari system and then a PC clone. >than a Mac. This is an age old arguement from both sides of the computing >platform debate. Windows fans say, "Macs are too expensive." Mac fans >start in with the, "So is a BMW." > My take on it? You get what you pay for. Always have, always will. No you don't. This is just stupid yuppie-weenie tripe. Quite often you get taken to the cleaners by something resembling a clue because of this absurd attitude. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:52:45 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79fjtd.tn6.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> <57Ol2.27341$m7.4081@newsr2.twcny.rr.com> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:37:16 GMT, Paul E Larson <whistle@twcny.rr.com> wrote: >In article <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: >>In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >>(jedi) wrote: >> >><SNIP> >>> >>> $$$ >>> >>>[deletia] >>> >>> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. >> >> In other words you bought a Windows based system because it was cheaper >>than a Mac. This is an age old arguement from both sides of the computing >>platform debate. Windows fans say, "Macs are too expensive." Mac fans > >You forgot the total expression, it is - "Apples PC's are too expensive, >compared to a similarly configured x86 PC". Always have been probably always >will. > >Paul > >>start in with the, "So is a BMW." >> My take on it? You get what you pay for. Always have, always will. >> >True, and everyone that buys the iMac is getting EXACTLY what they paid for. >An overpriced and underpowered coffee table PC. What amazes me is that they don't fess up to the fact that the extra $700 is an ease of use premium. Given their attitude in general about money, this shouldn't be too hard for them to do. Apparently, even they don't view the better relative ease worth the greater relevant cost. Otherwise, they wouldn't be trying to claim that the components themselves deliver all the extra utility to make up for the price. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:41:17 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79fj7t.tn6.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:26:27 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >In article <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >(jedi) wrote: > >> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:33:18 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >> >In article <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >> >(jedi) wrote: >> > >> >> On 07 Jan 1999 12:57:44 PST, Jim Naylor <jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam> >> >wrote: >> >> >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >> >> >(jedi) wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> $$$ >> >> >> >> >> >>[deletia] >> >> >> >> >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. >> >> > >> >> >It's nice to know (not that it matters much) what's *really* important >> >to you. >> >> >> >> I have flown to Europe (round trip) for what an iMac would >> >> cost me relative to it's real PC peers. >> > >> >Really? Then how do you explain that the iMac is less expensive than the >> >comparable Celeron "value" system in the Dell catalog I received >> >yesterday. >> > >> > >> >Unless someone's _paying_ you to go to Europe, this is nonsense. >> >> Only you mac users seriously think that the iMac >> is really comparable to any open architecture PC. >> For what an iMac is meant to do, a $500 is a more >> than adequate substitution. >> >> Ironically enough, we're taking your target market >> more into account than you are. > >Ironically, you're comparing a worthless piece of trash to a high quality >name brand system -- and can't tell the difference. No, you just have no clue what constitutes quality in a PC. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: rec.games.video.sega,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks Subject: Re: The Linux Home Server and Game Machine Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:27:49 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <778l53$2n7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <FB2BD7BAA1012071.4045A00044B59362.DC6F0D8AE5B63ADA@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368AF6F2.210ED00F@home.com> <773f28$6g4$1@wfn.emn.fr> <slrn79ajut.aud.jedi@dementia.mishnet> In article <slrn79ajut.aud.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: > On Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:16:18 +0100, Osvaldo Pinali Doederlein <osvaldo@visionnaire.com.br> wrote: > NOthing's stopping them already. 3Dfx does. 3Dfx is in a different position. When you have a 3Dfx card in your machine, its output exists separate from the display output of an existing 2D accelerator. The X server has control of that 2D accelerator, but does not touch the Voodoo chips, which leaves them available for access by a separate process. Integrated 2D/3D solutions are a very different matter. It's necessary to write a driver into the X server itself which makes use of accelerated functions and passes the functionality on to programs which call the server. For this one needs an implementation of the GLX protocol, etc., etc.. It's not simply a matter of writing a usermode library, coupling it to Mesa, and flipping the switch. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <casper-0901991347500001@192.168.1.3> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:47:48 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:48:33 CDT In article <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >In article <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >(jedi) wrote: > >> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:33:18 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >> >In article <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >> >(jedi) wrote: >> > >> >> On 07 Jan 1999 12:57:44 PST, Jim Naylor <jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam> >> >wrote: >> >> >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >> >> >(jedi) wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> $$$ >> >> >> >> >> >>[deletia] >> >> >> >> >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. >> >> > >> >> >It's nice to know (not that it matters much) what's *really* important >> >to you. >> >> >> >> I have flown to Europe (round trip) for what an iMac would >> >> cost me relative to it's real PC peers. >> > >> >Really? Then how do you explain that the iMac is less expensive than the >> >comparable Celeron "value" system in the Dell catalog I received >> >yesterday. >> > >> > >> >Unless someone's _paying_ you to go to Europe, this is nonsense. >> >> Only you mac users seriously think that the iMac >> is really comparable to any open architecture PC. >> For what an iMac is meant to do, a $500 is a more >> than adequate substitution. >> >> Ironically enough, we're taking your target market >> more into account than you are. > >Ironically, you're comparing a worthless piece of trash to a high quality >name brand system -- and can't tell the difference. MicroWarehouse has a really nice Compaq DeskPro for only $500 with a full 3 year warranty. Of course it doesn't include a modem, ethernet, any software, or a monitor. It does include a 166 mhz Pentium, 32 MB of RAM, and a CD ROM drive. I suggested it to one of my relatives who is looking for a computer (they specified no Macs) and told them to expect to pay another $300 for a modem and software plus whatever a 17" monitor and a printer cost. That will meet the needs of the target market for the iMac. It also meets my needs at home for my personal computer. My PowerMac 7600/266 meets my wants at home for my personal computer so that is what I use instead. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net http://www.nb.net/~casper/ Imagine that CRAY decides to make a personal computer. It contains 16 Alpha based processors executing in parallel, has 800 megabytes of RAM, 100 Gigabytes of disk storage, a resolution of 4096 x 4096 pixels, does 24bit 3D graphics in realtime, relies entirely on voice recognition for input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300. What is the first question the computer community asks? "Is it DOS compatible?"
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <casper-0901991353010001@192.168.1.3> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <bholderness-0501991522530001@207-172-116-170.s43.as3.dwt.erols.com> <bCuk2.633$K12.85250@news.shore.net> <slrn7956ug.lc8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:52:59 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:53:43 CDT In article <slrn7956ug.lc8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: >On Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:31:21 -0500, Bill Frisbee <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> wrote: >>Read what? That the iMac can't run Linux in its current PPC kernel? >>Or the fact that the iMac's system board is from a PowerBook? >> >>Linux DOES not properly support USB. Since USB was "hacked" onto the >>existing PowerBook motherboard for the iMac, there was no BIOS >>inplementation for emulating the KB as there is on the newer PCs. > > As long as you can load code from somewhere besides the BIOS, > before you need the keyboard, that shouldn't be a problem. > > So? How does USB handle more than one input device of any > one type? Will it go into some state of confusion? How does Linux on an Intel processor handle USB? It's the same port. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> "DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form." ( New York Times, November 26, 1991)
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: alt.books.electronic,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Forget the WebMate, I wanna Apple version of the WebPad! Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:09:45 GMT Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Message-ID: <4707EE36EBEF6648.C1FED0801CA00131.BC17B3EB43F484C9@library-proxy.airnews.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.iadfw.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Jan 9 12:57:24 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We've been hearing a lot about the WebMate, Apple's successor to the eMate...but we've also been hearing a lot about Cyrix's proposed WebPad. Now of all the companies that could produce a high quality version of the WebPad, Apple is high on the list. Of course, there is the problem of the CPU being x86 based..but Apple does own a peice of ARM, so they could probably base it on an ARM processor instead. Also, to really help it's prospective market--Kids, at least in Apple's case, it'd need to be "throw proof." I don't know about anyone else, but if I had had someonething like a WebPad serving as my "books" in high school it would have been thrown across the room at least _once_. What's interesting, I think, is many people don't realize how signficant the WebPad could be. If the price does stay around $500-$800 it could replace the PC for most people (they'll need a cable modem, xDSL or MMDS/LMDS to use it properly, tho). I could see it having USB or Firewire support for a speech-input device, reducing the need to attach it to a keybord to input stuff. -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:34:19 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79fprr.v0r.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <casper-0901991347500001@192.168.1.3> <jmuccigr-0901991623230001@pc164-167.drew.edu> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:23:23 -0500, John D. Muccigrosso <jmuccigr@drew.edu> wrote: >In article <casper-0901991347500001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim >Scoff) wrote: > >>In article <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net>, >>joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >> >>>In article <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >>>(jedi) wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:33:18 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >>>> >In article <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >>>> >(jedi) wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> On 07 Jan 1999 12:57:44 PST, Jim Naylor <jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam> >>>> >wrote: >>>> >> >In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >>>> >> >(jedi) wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >> $$$ >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >>[deletia] >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. >>>> >> > >>>> >> >It's nice to know (not that it matters much) what's *really* important >>>> >to you. >>>> >> >>>> >> I have flown to Europe (round trip) for what an iMac would >>>> >> cost me relative to it's real PC peers. >>>> > >>>> >Really? Then how do you explain that the iMac is less expensive than the >>>> >comparable Celeron "value" system in the Dell catalog I received >At the risk of being redundant, I would like to make two comments. > >First, if it ever occurs to you to say "I could build my own computer for >less" and are even remotely capable of doing this, you are not the target >market for the iMac. (A slightly less accurate formulation of this would >be "If you post to newsgroups like this one...".) That's not entirely relevant. Plenty of us have provided examples and sources for $500-$1000 pre-assembled machines for the casual use crowd. [deletia] One simply doesn't have to roll their own anymore to take advantage of the best price advantages of PC's. This was starting to be the case several months before the iMac was even announced. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: petcher@howdy.wustl.edu (Donald N. Petcher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: We need MacOSXS for Intel! (Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server) Date: 10 Jan 1999 00:59:36 GMT Organization: Washington University in St. Louis Message-ID: <778u1o$ame$1@newsreader.wustl.edu> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote: >Scott Anguish has posted a very eloquent statement on the high cost of Mac OS >X Server on the Stepwise site: > >http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html > >I hope someone at Apple is reading it. In case they're not, I would encourage >all of you who are as dismayed as I am about the OSX Server pricing to follow >Scott's advice to tell Apple (leadership@apple.com) and copy him >(sanguish@digifix.com). Venting on this site clearly isn't helping. > >Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, >reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user (I hope) > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own The problem for my situation is that although Scott does advocate workstation for Intel, he suggests leaving out the netbooting of 8.x clients. That would be fine for developers, but I have a different problem. I need an Intel version, and it would be a great advantage if it would net-boot OS 8.x machines. (Of course an Intel version of the whole thing with a good edu price would also do nicely for us, but it wouldn't help businesses in a similar situation.) At my (small) college (Not Wash U - I have a guest account there) they were about to throw Apple entirely off campus in favor of Wintel (and a few unix boxes) until I argued that MacOS would become unix so we should allow machines running MacOS X as an option. (The issue here is the usual: protected memory, disk space permissions, etc. so MacOS 8.x must be phased out.) This was accepted with the assumption that I would make some tests including server tests with some of our existing 8.x manchines as clients, as soon as Mac OS X Server for Intel would come out. I couldn't get permission to buy a Mac for this, but the tech people were willing to put together a wintel box to "rhapsody" specs. Now I have the machine, but there appears to be no forthcoming server to run on it. The tech people will likely just say that Apple has failed again and that we should get rid of all Macs after all. (Ultimately when MacOS DOES become unix-basaed, we probably will be allowed able to get Macs again, but that would push any purchases off by at least a year, and by that time most people would be forced off to Wintel, since very few of our machines are OSX capable.) How many other colleges or businesses are in a similar situation? Probably quite a lot. It is a critical time for many organziations just growing into a greater commitment to computer usage, and Apple needs to do everything it can to keep everybody on board they possibly can until MacOSX is readily available. I would be happy with a WebObjectless version, but it needs to serve. Then again, it would be a great thing to play around with for our students. That helps to gain Apple mindshare. But I need it on Intel! Well, maybe I was too optimistic all along. I hope our college doesn't abandon Apple in the mean time when the promise for an excellent system is "just around the corner". Cheers, Don Petcher
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Benefits of the demise of MacOS X Server for Intel Date: 9 Jan 1999 20:10:05 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <778uld$48n$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <SCOTT.99Jan8092334@slave.doubleu.com> <hugh-0901991344300001@254.minneapolis-21-22rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <3698228D.7CB946A1@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 1999 01:10:34 GMT In article <3698228D.7CB946A1@mediaone.net>, Tony Royal <troyal@mediaone.net> wrote: > As a long-time NeXT developer, I think that the folks at Apple are doing > the right thing. Trying to support millions of different > configurations of PC's is a losing proposition. NeXT always found it > difficult to support more than a few configurations of PC hardware. I think that the types of people who would be willing to buy OS X Server for Intel are often also the types who would swap parts for or build from scratch a system capable of running it. > I will gladly part with my six Pentium PC's that I use for Yellow Box > software development on NT and Mach and use G3 Macs. I think that a lot of the people who want OS X Server on Intel would agree with you, actually. However, they _need_ the Intel version first for evaluation purposes, or "getting the foot in the door". e.g., proving its worth to MIS before Apple hardware purchases are approved, particularly in Wintel-only organizations or those considering halting new Mac purchases to make the shift to Wintel. There _has_ to be a palatable transition path for these people without forcing them to take the leap of a full investment in Mac hardware.
Message-ID: <3698228D.7CB946A1@mediaone.net> From: Tony Royal <troyal@mediaone.net> Organization: Jenike & Johanson, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Benefits of the demise of MacOS X Server for Intel References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <3692ad42.0@news.depaul.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan7135206@slave.doubleu.com> <iPpl2.469$S02.7477@homer.alpha.net> <SCOTT.99Jan8092334@slave.doubleu.com> <hugh-0901991344300001@254.minneapolis-21-22rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:46:21 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:36:35 EDT As a long-time NeXT developer, I think that the folks at Apple are doing the right thing. Trying to support millions of different configurations of PC's is a losing proposition. NeXT always found it difficult to support more than a few configurations of PC hardware. If Apple continues with Intel they have to support it, and if they were to drop it in the future, everyone would really be upset. For users on Intel boxes today, Yellow Box on NT makes more sense than Mach, since the relatively few Yellow Box apps are the only software titles that would be available for a MacOS X Server on Intel. Yellow Box on NT relieves Apple from the driver support issue, as well. Notice that even for G3Mac systems, Apple engineers are attempting to minimize the number of configurations that they have to support. I long for the day when you could unpack a black Turbo NeXTStation, plug in the network cable and have everything "just work". No IRQ's, base memory adresses, etc. Steve's contribution to computing is his dedication to ease-of-use and productivity, which was his original focus at Apple, his focus for developers while he was at NeXT, and now back at Apple. With the relatively low cost of hardware today, it makes sense to make the hardware/software integrated and easy to use. The PC hardware platform is a mess. Why do you think it has taken Microsoft so long to produce NT5? I think Apple is solidly on the right course of making a transition of their customer and developer base via Carbon to a well integrated software/hardware solution for customers that want to use computers to enhance their life, not just increase the frustration and stress level. Apple is changing the imaging model on MacOS X Server from Display Postscript to essentially the same model without the language. This has to be done for performance reasons to support multiply threaded applications such as those possible with Java and to make it possible to support the many user configurations of printers. I had to chuckle when listening to the Microsoft VP during Steve's keynote claiming what a novel thing it is to have Internet Explorer print properly. If the imaging model in win32 was right, printing wouldn't be an issue. It was never an issue when programming for OpenStep. When MacOS X User is available, I think it will be clear to everyone that Apple has done the right thing and delivered a powerful easy-to-use computer that is relatively easy to program using the Yellow Box API's and one which can accommodate change faster than the Wintel platform in a manner that is simple and straightforward to the user. I will gladly part with my six Pentium PC's that I use for Yellow Box software development on NT and Mach and use G3 Macs. The only reason that it takes six PC's (half of them are on NT and the other half OpenStep Mach) is because Yellow Box developer tools on Mach are superior to those on NT, but there are not enough software titles on OpenStep to be a productive user. One G3 Mac running MacOS X Server with Yellow Box developer tools and user apps via Blue Box will effectively replace two of my PC's. Going with Apple hardware will relieve me of the burden of tinkering with PC hardware, so I can get on with my work. I've been waiting for something better than my black NeXTStations that I still like to use today. Integrated FireWire, USB, 3D graphics, a good imaging model for display and printing, a solid operating system, and good object oriented developer tools using the Yellow Box API's is where I want Apple to go. They are well on the way of doing the "right thing". Hardware cost is not the issue any more. It is ease-of-use and productivity. Apple is on the right path. It would be less expensive for Apple to offer generous discounts on G3Macs to the ex NeXT developers than support a MacOS X Server for Intel. Tony Royal Vice President Jenike & Johanson, Inc.
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:44:56 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSX Server price Message-ID: <stevehix-0901991844560001@192.168.1.10> References: <MPG.10fc1d7bb6d9acd9989682@news.earthlink.net> <76ttva$oal$1@crib.corepower.com> <76tusd$odd$1@crib.corepower.com> <76udp7$3lo$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <3692c695.0@news.depaul.edu> <3693CCFE.D46F3A4D@tone.ca> <770out$6k6$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <7714sp$m6e$3@cgl.ucsf.edu> Organization: Close to None In article <7714sp$m6e$3@cgl.ucsf.edu>, pett@address.is.in.sig (Eric Pettersen) wrote: > seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote: > > But at any rate, whatever. When most everyone here was guessing that > > MacOSX Server was gonna be under $500 (many guessed $199 etc.), I ventured > > that it was $999, no WebObjects, no academic discount. It turns out > > it's $995, with a slow WebObjects and no academic discount (so far as > > we know yet). Give me the credit I deserve. I was a heckuva lot closer > > than everyone else. > > The person I talked to at the OS X section of the Apple Pavilion felt that > OS X would have academic pricing (namely: $399) but wasn't 100% certain, > FWIW. If it does, I'd snap it up in an instant...
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:56:19 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <stevehix-0901991856190001@192.168.1.10> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> Organization: Close to None In article <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: > In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet > (jedi) wrote: > > <SNIP> > > > > $$$ > > > >[deletia] > > > > That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. > > In other words you bought a Windows based system because it was cheaper > than a Mac. This is an age old arguement from both sides of the computing > platform debate. Windows fans say, "Macs are too expensive." Mac fans > start in with the, "So is a BMW." > My take on it? You get what you pay for. Always have, always will. "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweet taste of low price has been forgotten..." Or something like that.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:15:20 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:16:06 CDT In article <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: >You want Apple to be sympathetic to your plight while you constantly >belittle their hardware. It's like you're saying give me my YB on Intel and >to hell with the rest of your products. I sure this sits very well with the >old guard Apple folks. If that's the reasoning Apple is using, they need a swift kick in the pants. You're not supposed to tell your customers what to do, it's supposed to work the other way around. If customers badmouth your products, you don't cut them off or cease to listen to them. On the contrary, that's exactly when you really should listen, as they are telling you something really vital. Even if the customer is 'wrong' (ie Apple hw really smokes all those PC's for example), the customer is still telling you "I didn't know that" or "I don't believe that", which is a certain warning that you must do better advertising. Instead you paint a sad picture of the 'old guard Apple folks'. Sadly, I think that's the reason that Apple doesn't want to sell OSXS Intel. If those PC folks aren't customers, Apple doesn't have to listen to them. Unfortunately, it's a sign that Apple really hasn't come all the way around and is still working in 'panic mode' where it's looking at the next year, rather than the next 5. That kind of thinking was necessary when Apple obits seemed right around the corner, but aren't as needed now. Apple's fear is that people will buy Intel PCs rather then their spiffy new iMacs or G3 Pros. It just won't happen for an 'end of the line' OS, esp one with a $1000 pricetag. Apple should more energy into making great products, empowering developers, and focusing on consumers needs instead of hamping them. And yes, I'm a 'loyal' Apple customer. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:43:58 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79fjcu.tn6.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <david_-0901991112010001@s188-236.resnet.ucla.edu> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:12:00 -0800, David Kurtz <david_@ucla.edu> wrote: >In article <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net>, >joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > >> In article <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >> (jedi) wrote: > >> > Ironically enough, we're taking your target market >> > more into account than you are. >> >> Ironically, you're comparing a worthless piece of trash to a high quality >> name brand system -- and can't tell the difference. > > >Pearls before swine and all that.... Ya just gotta laugh at some poor Mac fool that puts high quality and rage into the argument. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:45:08 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79fjf4.tn6.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <oPsk2.595$K12.82476@news.shore.net> <bholderness-0501991522530001@207-172-116-170.s43.as3.dwt.erols.com> <bCuk2.633$K12.85250@news.shore.net> <slrn7956ug.lc8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991353010001@192.168.1.3> On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:52:59 -0500, Tim Scoff <casper@nb.net> wrote: >In article <slrn7956ug.lc8.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >(jedi) wrote: > >>On Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:31:21 -0500, Bill Frisbee ><bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> wrote: >>>Read what? That the iMac can't run Linux in its current PPC kernel? >>>Or the fact that the iMac's system board is from a PowerBook? >>> >>>Linux DOES not properly support USB. Since USB was "hacked" onto the >>>existing PowerBook motherboard for the iMac, there was no BIOS >>>inplementation for emulating the KB as there is on the newer PCs. >> >> As long as you can load code from somewhere besides the BIOS, >> before you need the keyboard, that shouldn't be a problem. >> >> So? How does USB handle more than one input device of any >> one type? Will it go into some state of confusion? > > How does Linux on an Intel processor handle USB? It's the same port. You didn't address my question. ...and the spec didn't seem detailed enough to deal with that situation. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Mitchell Allen" <mitchell.allen@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Advanced Mac UI? Date: 10 Jan 1999 03:54:04 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <77988s$39j@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <zxHl2.6391$XY6.148404@news.san.rr.com> Ed Deans. wrote in message ... >While trying to figure what I'll have to pick from if there is indeed no >MOSX[S]/Intel, I was looking over some of my old Rhapsody stuff and kept >noticing "Advanced Macintosh User Experience" or similar terms. > >I didn't see anything in the Mac OS X Server demo that appeared advanced. >If it's shipping next month I presume that the majority of UE/UI changes are >completed. > Um, I think they are referring to the regular Mac UI as being "advanced" as opposed to Win 95, DOS, or any other CLI. Mitch
From: "Mitchell Allen" <mitchell.allen@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 10 Jan 1999 04:12:40 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <7799bo$9l1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> > >: Until the 1990s. A few years back, Japan had a huge rice crop failure, >: and the government was forced to take drastic measures, first trying to >: convince the Japanese people to _temporarily_ buy foreign rice, then later >: forcing Japanese rice sellers to include 10% or more foreign rice in their >: rice bags. The rice sellers got around this by selling Japanese rice bags >: with a little inner bag of foreign rice, which consumers would throw out >: when they opened the main bag! But after the crop failure, many Japanese >: learned (1) that unlike Thai and Taiwanese rice, custom-made-for-Japan >: American rice was actually pretty good, and (2) it was 1/10th the cost of >: Japanese rice, but forced to the same price as Japanese rice through huge >: tarrifs. I don't know much about trade practices in Japan, but I do know a lot about rice and I would really like someone to explain to me how that pasty, tastless, globular shit used by the Japanese can be described in any respect as "good." Basmati for me, all the way. It's firm. It has tase. It has a pleasing smell. It has long, thin grains that DON'T look like something that mail-order software comes packaged in. Mitch
From: "Mitchell Allen" <mitchell.allen@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: NeXT-UI : How Long? Date: 10 Jan 1999 04:01:44 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <7798n8$5ja@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> References: <lThoVgHmmC1M@cc.usu.edu> root@127.0.0.1 wrote in message ... >Ok. MacOS X Server has been declared available shortly. > >Now, many of us ex-NeXT'ers (as we are so endearingly labeled), >are really, really reluctant to trade in our beloved crisp look-and-feel >for what the Server is offering. There was discussion long ago that >there may be options to swap the Mac look for a more traditional >NeXT look. Is this confirmed? Can I configure MacOS X Server to look >and feel like my trusty OpenStep system? I prefer "computer users formerly known as NeXT users" myself. >Or am I just whistling in the wind... Wheet! Wheet! Mitch
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:30:22 -0700 Organization: Stone Entertainment Message-ID: <stone-0901992130230001@rc-pm3-2-09.enetis.net> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0901990921580001@elk61.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-0901990921580001@elk61.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > In article <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net>, > stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote: (snip) > > The fact that one of the first YellowBox apps available for MacOS X Server > > upon its release will be Photoshop 5.0 sort of contradicts your > > statement. > > Really? When did that happen? > Last I heard, Photoshop wasn't going YB. They _are_ doing Carbon, though. > Tiffany will be the premiere YB graphics app. Hmm... to be honest it was second hand information. A quick search on-line reveals nothing about Adobe supporting YellowBox in MacOS X Server. But still, how does this suggest that YellowBox will somehow be shunned by developers when it is in developers best interest to develop YellowBox apps? If I recall correctly we heard this all before... when PowerPC was first released developers weren't going to support it either. -Kevin Stone "To err is human. You need a computer to really fuc& thinks up." - Cyber City Oedo
From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <3142915339621@digifix.com> Date: 10 Jan 1999 04:45:03 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <6325915944426@digifix.com> Topics include: Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites NeXTanswers Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites ============================================ The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise. Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server http://www.stepwise.com Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related Frequently Asked Questions. NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org http://www.peak.org/next http://www.peak.org/openstep http://www.peak.org/rhapsody PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North America. Apple Enterprise Software Group (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) http://enterprise.apple.com http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software patches. Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to develop great Rhapsody software products.. Rhapsody Developer Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html WebObjects Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups ==================================================== COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific groups as well. COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. ** RELATED NEWSGROUPS ** COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. COMP.OBJECT Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. 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Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 10 Jan 1999 00:03:53 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <779cbp$4lg$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0901990921580001@elk61.dol.net> <stone-0901992130230001@rc-pm3-2-09.enetis.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 1999 05:04:05 GMT In article <stone-0901992130230001@rc-pm3-2-09.enetis.net>, stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote: > But still, how does this suggest that YellowBox will somehow be > shunned by developers when it is in developers best interest to develop > YellowBox apps? Um, because developers don't think that Apple is guaranteed to put the effort into supporting and improving it?
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Benefits of the demise of MacOS X Server for Intel Date: 10 Jan 1999 05:50:51 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <779f3r$2od$1@remarQ.com> References: <915580010.703832@newsvl21> <SCOTT.99Jan8092334@slave.doubleu.com> <hugh-0901991344300001@254.minneapolis-21-22rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <3698228D.7CB946A1@mediaone.net> In article <3698228D.7CB946A1@mediaone.net>, Tony Royal <troyal@mediaone.net> wrote: >As a long-time NeXT developer, I think that the folks at Apple are doing >the right thing. Trying to support millions of different >configurations of PC's is a losing proposition. I don't think the issue was support; it's the re-re-focusing of Apple as a hardware company. Suppose there's an Intel version of MOSXS. Someone buys the software and installs it on a clone. Assuming the price is the same for both PPC and Intel, Apple loses out on high margin server hardware sales; instead of $1,000 plus whatever they make on the G3 sale, they get just $1,000 for the CD. As Cliff put it, it's the other shoe of the Power Computing buyout falling. The downsides to this? It pisses off developers, who don't want to drop a bunch of money on hardware. It makes getting MOSXS tough for someone like me, where I'd have to justify an Apple hardware buy instead of just another PC buy (and, incidentally, bring it in under the radar, since the powers that be where I work want to do NT only.) And it delays, at best, any cross-platform strategy for Apple. PPC forever. Apple is going to try to implement their old business model of hardware + software. I have my doubts about how long they can pull this off; I'd guess that within a few years the Intel/AMD economies of scale will finally overwhelm Moto/IBM. At that point Apple will have to make a transition to another CPU; and they'll be really screwed if they haven't transitioned a lot of software to YB by then, which handles other CPUs much better than Carbon. Keeping existing YB developers from revolting should be a priority; without them, there will be little impetuous to move to YB. Apple could keep a few developers around, I suspect, by doing a crippled developer-targeted Intel release. Say, no net booting, or other changes that make it difficult to use as a real production server. -- Don McGregor |"If he means it, there is no trusting his judgment--if he mcgredo@mbay.net |does not mean it I have no time to waste on such trifling."
From: Michael Sheets <msheets@wwisp.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:55:48 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <msheets-090119992355483235@bh-p3-2-ppp74.wwisp.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.0.0 In article <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote: > On Fri, 08 Jan 1999 00:50:06 -0600, Michael Sheets <msheets@wwisp.com> wrote: > >> 3. Will us Apple Developers (the $500/year level) > >> get MacOSX Server for free when it ships? > >Uncomfirmed, the answer is yes. But it may not include WebObjects. > > Will this be part of the $500/year membership or be only sent out to > existing members? Why wouldn't it include WO when the 25tpm version > is now free, and the only part of WO that isn't free and doesn't ship > with the dev tools is WOB? I assume you mean if you register after it's sent wiether you can get it? The answer would be yes, but you would have to request it.
From: cranston_snord@pooka.com (Cranston Snord) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 05:45:26 GMT Organization: Snord Enterprises Message-ID: <36983de0.13393542@news.jps.net> References: <776h99$r0r@shelob.afs.com> <776lf4$brb@ns2.alink.net> The guys at Apple sure are playing frisbee with our noggins. Or perhaps it's tennis with our bowels. Ouch!!! Stop that. Our business plan became toast _months_ ago anyway thanks to a lack of consistent direction and general air of spinelessness at Apple. The news is at least constantly entertaining and well... at least it makes me laugh. Apple we're laughing _at_ you not with you. Cranston On 9 Jan 1999 04:20:52 GMT, msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy) wrote: >"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> writes: >> cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote in message ... >> >What am I missing? Dr Prabhakar, where are you? >> >> I regret to inform you that Ernie seems to have been assimilated. (I had >> feared that might happen when he took the position.) As Winnie-The-Pooh >> might say, "You never can tell with Reality Distortion Fields." >> >> Greg > >To merge two threads: > >scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes: >> Near the end of the BOF, one of the Apple guys said "We'll continue to >> provide you with information you need to make your business plans." >> If that wasn't the low point, it was pretty close :-). > >Ernie Prabakhar made that statement. > >Mike Barthelemy
From: "Martin Ozolins" <Martin.Ozollins@cwusa.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning? Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:44:00 -0800 Organization: CampusCWIX Message-ID: <779ekg$9gf$1@news.campus.mci.net> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <367ff362.0@news.deniz.com> <m24sqkefz1.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <770k05$7is$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3696c907$0$19091@nntp1.ba.best.com> OS2 3 and later both support win32s, actually the seamless windows setup would run windows apps faster than windows. Boris wrote in message <3696c907$0$19091@nntp1.ba.best.com>... > >>To this day, I'm still flabbergasted that they gave up so easily. I liked the >>OS/2 shell. >The problem with OS/2 is that it lost momentum; IBM was far too late with releasing it. >Actually, non-GUI version was there for a while; but it didn't cause much interest. Then >Windows was released; everybody started writing apps for it. By the time OS/2 could run >any Windows applications most applications used Windows Enhanced mode, which OS/2 didn't >support. I don't know if even the most current version of OS/2 supports WIN32 >applications; I doubt it. Except for IBM very few companies write OS/2 software. There >isn't even small chance that OS/2 gets noticeable market share. >The point is: why OS/2? What's wrong with Windows? Work great for most people (including >myself). > >Boris > >
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:37:38 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Ziya Oz wrote in message <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > >> I think what galls NEXTSTEP developers the most is knowing, in our heart of >> hearts, that this is really terrific technology. > >What about YB living vicariously via WebObjects? What about it? AppKit was a front-end application builder. WO is a back-end application builder. I don't see the relevance. Greg
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:09:49 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:05:41 PDT No MacOS X for Intel anymore. I think Apple should have released it, at least one version, without any fanfare at all, and at the high price they're selling it for I seriously doubt it would cut into their hardware sales in any significant amount at all. But the reasoning I've heard behind it - that it would cut into their hardware sales - reminded me of something I thought of a while back. Apple should sell Intel boxes. Wait! Don't go berserk, I'm as die-hard a Mac advocate as anyone. I think the PPC is definitely better than any of Intel's offerings, and the MacOS is better than Windows, and all that. But I think Apple should be an everything vendor. Let me explain. Apple should have three main divisions; interface, multimedia, and enterprise. The interface division would make UIs (or just *the* UI, the Mac interface) and hardware interfaces (like plastics, input devices, and displays/speakers). The UI would run atop any base OS which can have variable UIs - unixes, in other words. It could use X11, DPS, PDF, or whatever you would like. The interface division would also sell various apps which make the Mac interface what it is; Finder, Sherlock, etc. The plastics would fit around a standard set of dimensions (what's the Wintel-world standard? "XT" or something?), so the cases could be interchangable. The input devices (mice, keyboards, tablets, gamepads, joysticks, etc) would all be designed to match the different case-plastic styles, as would displays and speakers. The multimedia division would make QuickTime, FinalCut, and other media and content-creation tools. These would be produced and sold across as many platforms as possible. Then there's the enterprise division, formerly NeXT. This would produce WO, EOF, "Diamond" (YB/OpenStep), and Carbon to ease the transition from the MacOS Toolbox to Diamond. Perhaps a Win32 -> Diamond transitory API as well. The enterprise division would also sell IB & PB. All this across as many platforms as possible. Then, Apple would also be a solutions vendor. They would sell console-like boxes in the vein of the iMac, workstations/servers like PowerMacs (in Slab [low-profile], Tower, and Cube [big fat stackable server box] forms), powerfull laptops like PowerBooks, and a little handheld device like an "iBook". These could use whatever the best processor for the job is; a StrongARM in the iBook, a G3 in the iMac and PowerBook, and G4s, Alphas, or Xeons in the PowerMacs. USB, FireWire, and Ethernet would be the standard ports; all three in PowerMacs, USB and Ethernet in iMacs and PowerBooks, and just USB in iBooks. Plus IR and PCMCIA across the board, with fast/wide PCI in the PowerMacs. Audio/video chipsets could be whatever does the job best, or even a BTO option. Then for software, the core OS could be whatever the current best is - Mach, or Linux, or what have you - with the latest versions of all the other unix tools, drivers, etc included, and then Apple's technologies (Diamond and the Mac UI) atop that. Basically, sell the customer whatever they want, all integrated with Apple's own technologies (so, every box Apple sells - whatever the innards - comes in Apple plastics, every OS Apple sell - again, whatever the innards - comes with Apple APIs and UI). Any thoughts? (And my sincerest appoligies for another "what Apple *should* do" post). -- -Forrest Cameranesi Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: Michael Sheets <msheets@wwisp.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:03:48 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <msheets-100119990003482174@bh-p3-2-ppp74.wwisp.com> References: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.0.0 In article <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: > Final Cynical Note: Aren't Blueberry, Grape, Tangerine, Lime, and > Strawberry all ... like ... KoolAid flavors? And who is the iMac marketed to? You got it, the KoolAid generation.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Message-ID: <F5Bx64.9xC@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Sender: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) Organization: datagram References: <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 05:42:04 GMT In article <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> croehrig@my-dejanews.com writes: > > > I think the most credible reason for Apple to kill MacOSX Server/Intel > is that Apple wants you to buy a G3. > Why should they make an Intel version > available when it will only result in lost hardware sales? > Killing MacOSX Server/Intel is plain stupid. Three reasons: 1) Replacing PC hardware with Apple hardware is not an option in most large companies. On the other hand, buying Apple software is an option. 2) Many pre-press companies are buying PC hardware+NT server. This is at the heart of Apple's core bussiness. I just sold a quad CPU Intel system with 1 Gb RAM, 80 Gb Mylex Raid, and a dual, redundant power supply to one of these companies. Apple does not offer any hardware that comes even close to this. The OS is NT 4.0 because there is no alternative that runs on this hardware. It will take years for Apple to fill this hardware gap. MacOSX can fill the software gap. 3) CTI (computer telephone integration, one of the fastest growing IT markets) is an Intel-only market. There are no Dialogic boards available for the Mac. NT 4.0 is the "de facto" OS standard. But large sites don't want to rely on NT, they need a stable Unix on PC hardware. There is no way for Apple to enter this market with its hardware because of the lack of appropriate third-party boards. MacOSX software on Intel could be a real competitor for SCO. SCO rules on Intel because there are no alternatives. (Yes, I know about all the other OS'es). ------------------------------------------------------------- Hugo Burm home: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl work: hugob@fullmoon.nl -------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <36984397.D54DCBB0@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 06:23:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:23:27 PDT Scott Hess wrote: > In article <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> Michael <michael@tone.ca> writes: > Greg Anderson wrote: > > Every recent decision seems calculated to flush the few remaining > > YB developers so no one will be standing to compete with their > > new Best Buddies from Redmond when the consumer version ships. > > "Kill the baby," indeed. I understand why it is being done from a > > business perspective, but I hope my friends inside NeXT/Apple > > feel ashamed about what has happened. > > If I was Apple I'd be very concerned about unleashing an OS without > the familiar Mac interface but with "MacOS" as part of it's name on > it's unsophisticated users at a price point they could afford. The > fall-out could get nasty. Do you this is why they're doing what > they're doing, or are there other reasons? > > Apple seems to understand that they can't just continue riding MacOS > 8.x forever. MacOS is very mature, and does what it does well, > enough, but it's not going to suddenly start surging ahead on the > technical front. > > The obvious solution over the past year has appeared to be to use > Carbon to retain as much of that MacOS 8.x maturity as they can, while > transitioning to YellowBox to provide the kick that will get things > moving up and forward again. To my mind this implies that they should > at minimum try not to alienate the few remaining NeXT developers. > They don't have to coddle us - we're still around, we can take care of > ourselves. They just need to stop trying to damage us. > > I don't delude myself that the NeXT developers are somehow > super-developers compared to MacOS developers. The NeXT developers > should be Apple's ace in the hole, though. The NeXT developers know > YellowBox _now_, they know Mach _now_, they know Unix _now_. Without > the NeXT developers, Apple will spend the next two or three years > riding Carbon, while waiting for MacOS developers to come up to speed. > With the NeXT developers, Apple had a ready-made core, that would give > incentive to their MacOS developers to move along, and provide a > knowledge base for those MacOS developers to build on. If they manage > to drive all the NeXT developers away, YellowBox will simply implode > due to lack of mindshare, and they'll be left with MacOS running over > Unix, with no compelling arguments for non-Mac developers. > > The lack of MacOS X Server/Intel and a clear direction on YellowBox/NT > isn't a killer problem. But if they had handled the transition better > (by _providing_ a transition), they'd only be losing perhaps half as > many of the remaining developers as they appear to be. And given that > there are perhaps 40 top-notch NeXT developers left out there, they > can't afford to be doing that. > Perhaps Apple recognizes that the carrot is raw _marketshare_? Taking care of building the market first insures an incentive will be there for Developers? This approach has the nice side-effect of eliminating wasted cycles and speculation by establishing real customers with real needs. Beats having top-notch YB guru's developing software for customers that don't yet exist. The server market is pretty dicey. With Sun, Linux and NT owning the bulk of that market, Apple needs to choose their battles well. Who better to show the way, than the people who want to buy Apple hardware? Apple may have a whole "network solution" in mind with thin client Macs, WO and OS X servers. They may be satisfied with proceeding with such a simple network stategy. What better way to upset Windows than to replace networked PC's with affordable Mac's and a dependable server. best... -r
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:42:18 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca><772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca><7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote in message ... >The obvious solution over the past year has appeared to be to use >Carbon to retain as much of that MacOS 8.x maturity as they can, while >transitioning to YellowBox to provide the kick that will get things >moving up and forward again. To my mind this implies that they should >at minimum try not to alienate the few remaining NeXT developers. >They don't have to coddle us - we're still around, we can take care of >ourselves. They just need to stop trying to damage us. Once again, Scott, you have crystalized my thoughts perfectly. To me, the very fact that Apple's actions seem calculated to piss off and drive away the last remaining YB developers, is the most telling sign that they don't intend to push it in the future. Otherwise, they'd be going out of their way to make sure the last stalwarts, like you and me, were happy and supported through the transition. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but anyone who still thinks otherwise is painfully deluded. Except as a hidden part of WO, Apple wants YB dead. Greg
From: jagapen+nospam@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Jonathan Gapen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Advanced Mac UI? Date: 10 Jan 1999 06:41:18 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison Message-ID: <slrn79gise.6jd.jagapen+nospam@billybob.chem.wisc.edu> References: <zxHl2.6391$XY6.148404@news.san.rr.com> <77988s$39j@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Mitchell Allen wrote: >Um, I think they are referring to the regular Mac UI as being "advanced" as >opposed to Win 95, DOS, or any other CLI. No, that can't be right. The only things "advanced" about the MacOS UI that I see are its advanced age, and an advanced case of creeping feature-itis. A Unix command-line has it beat on the former, and Windows has it beat on the latter. (Hmm, sarcasm, or an incredible simulation?) -- Jonathan Gapen - sysadmin - biker - caver - collecter of old computers I think you know exactly what I mean when I say it's a shpadoinkle day.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Message-ID: <tbrown-0901992240260001@da168.ecr.net> References: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:40:25 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:41:11 CDT In article <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >The Intel release ended up being not at all. I think the interesting >thing, in retrospect, is the smooth way Apple changed directions: > > - first a roughly equal PPC/Intel strategy > - then a PPC stratety with one Intel release > - then no Intel release > >They achieved a big change in strategy without any real shockwaves. I >know the pain is felt here, but I don't see it in the popular press. The >press is still talking about a successful new strategy, etc. I'm also struck on how the officially supported machine list has been edited down to G3s. It's nice to know that all those promises for supporting the 7500-9600 are relegated to "well it should install, but we won't make any promises". >The dangerous question is "why did they keep it off desktops?" The >dangerous answer might be "they don't want to maintain an upgrade path for >the long term." I fear that this is correct. Why else leave the older PCI macs off the list when the previous DR releases supported them? It's not like it would make that big of a deal with the $1000 pricetag, not too many 7500/8500/9500 owners are going to rush out to spend $1000 for OSXS. Not when they can take the $1000 + value of their CPU and buy a honking fast new G3 Pro (and get OS X when it ships for cheap). Leaving those machines off the list is a smoking gun. I'm begining to think Apple was listening to all those who screamed for PCI Mac support in OS X. The most heard mantra was, "If OS X Server supports those machines, how hard can it be to get OS X to support them?" Answer: OSXS doesn't support those machines. It's really not that subtle a message: "Buy a new Mac". -- tbrown@netset.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:18:33 -0700 From: adminkoff@uswest.net (Tony Minkoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <adminkoff-1001990018350001@adsl108.phnx.uswest.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> In article <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net>, SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > No MacOS X for Intel anymore. I think Apple should have released it, at > least one version, without any fanfare at all, and at the high price > they're selling it for I seriously doubt it would cut into their hardware > sales in any significant amount at all. But the reasoning I've heard > behind it - that it would cut into their hardware sales - reminded me of > something I thought of a while back. > > Apple should sell Intel boxes. Here's a thought: Apple should at least leave this opportunity open to itself. Yellow Box development tools produce fat binaries, that include both PPC and x86 versions of the application. How about including a processor-independent version, that can be compiled on the end-user's system to a processor-specific version that will run natively on the system, without access to the original source code? That way, if Apple decides some day in the future to produce computers based on a Merced successor (or SPARC, or Alpha, or picoJava, or whatever), they can produce an OS for the new system with the appropriate compiler built in, and there will already be software out there (and in the possession of users of Apple's existing systems) that can run natively on the new system. Apple won't be locked into PPC, and if another chip some day proves to be superior, it will have the opportunity to take advantage of it. -- Tony Minkoff adminkoff@uswest.net
From: mazulauf@localhost.localdomain () Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 10 Jan 1999 07:47:43 GMT Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS Message-ID: <slrn79gmrt.19h.mazulauf@27-147.med.utah.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <7799bo$9l1@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 1999 07:47:43 GMT On 10 Jan 1999 04:12:40 GMT, Mitchell Allen <mitchell.allen@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >I don't know much about trade practices in Japan, but I do know a lot about >rice and I would really like someone to explain to me how that pasty, >tastless, globular shit used by the Japanese can be described in any respect >as "good." Basmati for me, all the way. It's firm. It has tase. It has a >pleasing smell. It has long, thin grains that DON'T look like something >that mail-order software comes packaged in. Well, of course there's no accounting for tastes, but I've definitely got to agree. Basmati really does beat the living shit out of any other type of rice I've ever had. That's including what some friends of mine from Hawaii (of Japanese descent) claimed was the best rice in the world. From my limited understanding of rice, it was typical of what they serve in Japan. Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:30:13 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Message-ID: <36985705.9EC52FC6@cygnus.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0901990921580001@elk61.dol.net> <stone-0901992130230001@rc-pm3-2-09.enetis.net> <779cbp$4lg$1@crib.corepower.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathan Urban wrote: > > In article <stone-0901992130230001@rc-pm3-2-09.enetis.net>, stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) wrote: > > > But still, how does this suggest that YellowBox will somehow be > > shunned by developers when it is in developers best interest to develop > > YellowBox apps? > > Um, because developers don't think that Apple is guaranteed to put the > effort into supporting and improving it? And because Apple is showing itself to be unreliable with respect to its stated strategies. Apple have shown pretty consistantly that the one thing you can count on them NOT doing is what they told you they're going to do. Not that this should be new to NeXT fans -- Steve has made a profession out of it. Frankly, even if Apple were to reverse itself at this point and say they were going to release it on Intel.. even if they said they were going to stand by OSX-S, on both Intel and PPC, in the future instead of just doing a one shot.. I wouldn't trust them enough for it to change my mind. Even if they were sincere about it when they said it, I couldn't put my faith in them that it would remain sincere for more than the time it took them to say it. That may be a bit more extreme than some of the others around here, but that is exactly the extent to which they have alienated me.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-JeQ4ozV91uzW@localhost> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: 10 Jan 99 08:37:11 GMT On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:05:19, nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) thought aloud: > On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:06 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: > > >In article <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, > > philh@vision25.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > >> I don't know what. I doubt if many (any?) Linux users are waiting for > >> free Eudora. They have already got lots of free mail programs, e.g. Pine > >> and Netscape. > > > >And Elm and Balsa and KMail...there are probably more free email programs for > >Linux than there are commercial email programs for Windows. > > But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use > Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? For Linux? I haven't seen anything primetime-ready yet but I remember seeing a project or two getting mentions at Freshmeat occasionally. I can see an opportunity here for some enterprising Linux developer to take this market by storm. The makers of Pronews, which some consider superior to Agent, are apparently pondering whether to port Pronews to Linux and/or release the source under some public license scheme but again that's in the category of possible future scenarios. A Linux, Mac and Windows-compatible Yellow Box-based offline news reader (with the subscribtion data on a shared drive, even removable, for painless cross-platform use) would've been quite attractive but I don't see it happening under current circumstances. Perhaps GNUstep will pick up steam...? Brgds, -- taiQ [this space was intentionally blank]
From: "Brian Lewis" <brianl@erinet.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:50:46 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <77d0cq$j64$1@news.erinet.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 14:04:10 GMT Why would it make Apple supporters (kissups as you call them) cry? Carmack tells it like it is. Here's an idea, get over the bytemarks. It will lower your blood pressure. Steve Sullivan wrote in message ... >Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the >kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically >implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. > >Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that >Apple is improving, and this is very important. > >Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the >only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) > > >John Carmack > Id Software | Jan 10 1999, 16:52:49 (PT) | johnc@idsoftware.com > > Post your comments on this plan at the bottom of the page, or view the 22 >already available... > > > > > > Name: John Carmack > Email: johnc@idsoftware.com > Description: Programmer > Project: Quake Arena > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > 1/10/99 > ------- > > Ok, many of you have probably heard that I spoke at the macworld > keynote on tuesday. Some information is probably going to get > distorted in the spinning and retelling, so here is an info > dump straight from me: > > Q3test, and later the full commercial Quake3: Arena, will be simultaniously > released on windows, mac, and linux platforms. > > I think Apple is doing a lot of things right. A lot of what they are > doing now is catch-up to wintel, but if they can keep it up for the next > year, they may start making a really significant impact. > > I still can't give the mac an enthusiastic reccomendation for sophisticated > users right now because of the operating system issues, but they are working > towards correcting that with MacOS X. > > > The scoop on the new G3 mac hardware: > > Basically, its a great system, but Apple has oversold its > performance reletive to intel systems. In terms of timedemo scores, > the new G3 systems should be near the head of the pack, but there > will be intel systems outperforming them to some degree. The mac has > not instantly become a "better" platform for games than wintel, it > has just made a giant leap from the back of the pack to near the > front. > > I wish Apple would stop quoting "Bytemarks". I need to actually > look at the contents of that benchmark and see how it can be so > misleading. It is pretty funny listening to mac evangelist types > try to say that an iMac is faster than a pentium II-400. Nope. > Not even close. > > From all of my tests and experiments, the new mac systems are > basically as fast as the latest pentium II systems for general > cpu and memory performance. This is plenty good, but it doesn't > make the intel processors look like slugs. > > Sure, an in-cache, single precision, multiply-accumulate loop could > run twice as fast as a pentium II of the same clock rate, but > conversly, a double precision add loop would run twice as fast > on the pentium II. > > Spec95 is a set of valid benchmarks in my opinion, and I doubt the > PPC systems significantly (if at all) outperform the intel systems. > > > The IO system gets mixed marks. The 66 mhz video slot is a good step > up from 33 mhz pci in previous products, but that's still half the > bandwidth of AGP 2X, and it can't texture from main memory. This > will have a small effect on 3D gaming, but not enough to push it > out of its class. > > The 64 bit pci slots are a good thing for network and storage cards, > but the memory controller doesn't come close to getting peak > utilization out of it. Better than normal pci, though. > > > The video card is almost exactly what you will be able to get on > the pc side: a 16 mb rage-128. Running on a 66mhz pci bus, it's > theoretical peak performance will be midway between the pci and > agp models on pc systems for command traffic limited scenes. Note > that current games are not actually command traffic limited, so the > effect will be significantly smaller. The fill rates will be identical. > > The early systems are running the card at 75 mhz, which does put > it at a slight disadvantage to the TNT, but faster versions are > expected later. As far as I can tell, the rage-128 is as perfect > as the TNT feature-wise. The 32 mb option is a feature ATI can > hold over TNT. > > > Firewire is cool. > > > Its a simple thing, but the aspect of the new G3 systems that > struck me the most was the new case design. Not the flashy plastic > exterior, but the functional structure of it. The side of the > system just pops open, even with the power on, and lays the > motherboard and cards down flat while the disks and power supply > stay in the encloser. It really is a great design, and the benefits > were driven home yesterday when I had to scavenge some ram out of old > wintel systems yesterday -- most case designs suck really bad. > > > --- > > I could gripe a bit about the story of our (lack of) involvement > with Apple over the last four years or so, but I'm calling that > water under the bridge now. > > After all the past fiascos, I had been basically planning on ignoring Apple > until MacOS X (rhapsody) shipped, which would then turn it into a platform > that I was actually interested in. > > Recently, Apple made a strategic corporate decision that games were a > fundamental part of a consumer oriented product line (duh). To help that > out, Apple began an evaluation of what it needed to do to help game > developers. > > My first thought was "throw out MacOS", but they are already in the process > of doing that, and its just not going to be completed overnight. > > Apple has decent APIs for 2D graphics, input, sound, and networking, > but they didn't have a solid 3D graphics strategy. > > Rave was sort of ok. Underspecified and with no growth path, but > sort of ok. Pursuing a proprietary api that wasn't competetive with > other offerings would have been a Very Bad Idea. They could have tried > to make it better, or even invent a brand new api, but Apple doesn't have > much credebility in 3D programming. > > For a while, it was looking like Apple might do something stupid, > like license DirectX from microsoft and be put into a guaranteed > trailing edge position behind wintel. > > OpenGL was an obvious direction, but there were significant issues with > the licensing and implementation that would need to be resolved. > > I spent a day at apple with the various engineering teams and executives, > laying out all the issues. > > The first meeting didn't seem like it went all that well, and there wasn't > a clear direction visible for the next two months. Finally, I got the all > clear signal that OpenGL was a go and that apple would be getting both the > sgi codebase and the conix codebease and team (the best possible arrangement). > > So, I got a mac and started developing on it. My first weekend of > effort had QuakeArena limping along while held together with duct > tape, but weekend number two had it properly playable, and weekend > number three had it brought up to full feature compatability. I > still need to do some platform specific things with odd configurations > like multi monitor and addon controlers, but basically now its > just a matter of compiling on the mac to bring it up to date. > > This was important to me, because I felt that Quake2 had slipped a bit in > portability because it had been natively developed on windows. I like the > discipline of simultanious portable development. > > After 150 hours or so of concentrated mac development, I learned a > lot about the platform. > > CodeWarrior is pretty good. I was comfortable devloping there > almost immediately. I would definately say VC++ 6.0 is a more powerful > overall tool, but CW has some nice little aspects that I like. I > am definately looking forward to CW for linux. Unix purists may > be aghast, but I have allways liked gui dev environments more than > a bunch of xterms running vi and gdb. > > The hardware (even the previous generation stuff) is pretty good. > > The OpenGL performance is pretty good. There is a lot of work > underway to bring the OpenGL performance to the head of the pack, > but the existing stuff works fine for development. > > The low level operating systems SUCKS SO BAD it is hard to believe. > > The first order problem is lack of memory management / protection. > > It took me a while to figure out that the zen of mac development is > "be at peace while rebooting". I rebooted my mac system more times > the first weekend than I have rebooted all the WinNT systems I > have ever owned. True, it has gotten better now that I know my > way around a bit more, and the codebase is fully stable, but there > is just no excuse for an operating system in this day and age to > act like it doesn't have access to memory protection. > > The first thing that bit me was the static memory allocation for > the program. Modern operating systems just figure out how much > memory you need, but because the mac was originally dsigned for > systems without memory management, significant things have to be > laid out ahead of time. > > Porting a win32 game to the mac will probably involve more work > dealing with memory than any other aspect. Graphics, sound, and > networking have reasonable analogues, but you just can't rely > on being able to malloc() whatever you want on the mac. > > Sure, game developers can manage their own memory, but an operating > system that has proper virtual memory will let you develop > a lot faster. > > The lack of memory protection is the worst aspect of mac development. > You can just merrily write all over other programs, the development > environment, and the operating system from any application. > > I remember that. From dos 3.3 in 1990. > > Guard pages will help catch simple overruns, but it won't do anything > for all sorts of other problems. > > > The second order problem is lack of preemptive multitasking. > > The general responsiveness while working with multiple apps > is significantly worse than windows, and you often run into > completely modal dialogs that don't let you do anything else at all. > > > A third order problem is that a lot of the interfaces are fairly > clunky. > > There are still many aspects of the mac that clearly show design > decisions based on a 128k 68000 based machine. Wintel has grown > a lot more than the mac platform did. It may have been because the > intel architecture didn't evolve gracefully and that forced the > software to reevaluate itself more fully, or it may just be that > microsoft pushed harder. > > Carbon sanitizes the worst of the crap, but it doesn't turn it > into anything particularly good looking. > > > MacOS X nails all these problems, but thats still a ways away. > > I did figure one thing out -- I was always a little curious why > the early BeOS advocates were so enthusiastic. Coming from a > NEXTSTEP background, BeOS looked to me like a fairly interesting > little system, but nothing special. To a mac developer, it must > have looked like the promised land... >
From: flat@flat.net (fLAt anTAgonISt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:42:45 -0400 Organization: flat Message-ID: <flat-1001990842450001@pm7-135.orf.infi.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> <stevehix-0901991856190001@192.168.1.10> In article <stevehix-0901991856190001@192.168.1.10>, stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote: >In article <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim >Scoff) wrote: > >> In article <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet >> (jedi) wrote: >> >> <SNIP> >> > >> > $$$ >> > >> >[deletia] >> > >> > That's why most of us have been buying things other than Macs. >> >> In other words you bought a Windows based system because it was cheaper >> than a Mac. This is an age old arguement from both sides of the computing >> platform debate. Windows fans say, "Macs are too expensive." Mac fans >> start in with the, "So is a BMW." >> My take on it? You get what you pay for. Always have, always will. > >"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweet >taste of low price has been forgotten..." > >Or something like that. The costs of purchasing a PC are hidden in the life-shortening aggravation, eyestrain, tendinitis, techie-training, worrying about why it wants me to type in all these arcane characters, why I'm playing games and while my friend is producing music videos on his Mac, researching why this PC locks up, researching again why it locks up, trying to resell it, etc. Spend a few extra bucks up front and get a Mac.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:35:45 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p20.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <1dlf01v.1bm9m151qvepeiN@[10.0.0.3]> <EO0m2.17763$kR5.23869@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 1999 15:35:33 GMT Jean-Paul Samson wrote: > >>>What about YB living vicariously via WebObjects? > > >> What about it? AppKit was a front-end application builder. > >> WO is a back-end application builder. I don't see the > >> relevance. > > >I look at it this way. AppKit provides standalone UI. WO > >provides web based UI, and EOF/Foundation provides the > >backend for both. > > Ooo, just think of the possibilities. With this equivalence between > the Yellow Box and WebObjects API's, Greg can easily port PasteUp so > that it runs in a web browser!!! ;-) > I don't usually respond to sarcasm, but what the hell... It would have been nice for Greg to have a few months as the only layout program in the new MacOSX consumer market, so he could grab a solid peice of it before the carbonized Pagemakers and Quarks came across, but it looks like he may not get this opportunity. So he can fold up his tent, he can pass his apps to someone else, or he can take advantage of his greater knowledge of what the MacOSX environment will be like, take advantage of the advantages of the his development environment and, while the other guys are busy carbonizing, produce something that will jump ahead of them in terms of satisfying new market needs. "Porting Pasteup to a web browser" is a sarcastic way of saying there's nothing he can do now. I don't believe it. There's a new Mac layout program called Creator2 thats attracted a lot of notice even in it's version 1 incarnation, not by duplicating all the bells and whistles of Pagemaker & Quark, but by pushing the envelope in certain areas like scripting and ease of use. Yet Another Layout Program isn't going to cut it anyway, unless Greg can provide users with a reason to switch. Michael Monner
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:43:06 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p70.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 1999 14:42:56 GMT Doesn't WebObjects contain both? Isn't Apple just trying to simplify things by selling it all as one development package? I remember reading a quote from someone at Apple that suggested that WebObjects was now something of a misnomer and that it encompassed the whole development environment. (I could be wrong since I only know what I read.) Michael Monner Greg Anderson wrote: > Ziya Oz wrote in message <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > >"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > > > >> I think what galls NEXTSTEP developers the most is knowing, in our heart > of > >> hearts, that this is really terrific technology. > > > >What about YB living vicariously via WebObjects? > > What about it? AppKit was a front-end application builder. WO is a back-end > application builder. I don't see the relevance. > > Greg
From: agave_@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:42:24 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Isn't everyone jumping the gun here? The only thing I've read out of the Expo from somebody at Apple is that "At this time, Apple has no plans to productize the Intel OS." The source of the quote wasn't cited so I don't know if that's an official statement or not but look at what was said. What kind of word is "productize"? I interpreted it (and I know I'm not the only one) as meaning they weren't to go the length to advertise, shrinkwrap, provide nice driver support, etc for Intel. Doesn't mean they won't _sell_ it. Overly optimitic? Perhaps. But I'll wait until MacOS X Server is shipping or not before I decide what to do with my Intel hardware. -- Ian P. Cardenas BLaCKSMITH, inc. Software Engineer -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 11 Jan 1999 10:39:56 -0700 Organization: Brigham Young University Message-ID: <ygc3e5hiu8j.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <1dlf01v.1bm9m151qvepeiN@[10.0.0.3]> <EO0m2.17763$kR5.23869@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> <rex-1001991505240001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> >third-party apps, the BlueBox, and a Mach+BSD core. Unfortunately, even the BSD part may be missing. This is now an optional install and could disappear from mosx by the time it ships for real. Apple is now making a point (underground at least) of just "how" different mosxs and mosx are going to be. Planting the seeds for the end of Yellow? Not only Adobe, it seems that Gates and Co. were also negative on Yellow wrt Office updates. Obj C is gone. Don't count on anything. I'd like to just keep DR2 and run it as an orphan, but Apple cleverly broke it for G3s built after last summer. So I'll buy mosxs but that will probably be the end of purchases from Apple (of course there could be a miracle at Apple . . . nah.) -- Bill Smith, BYU mathematics dept. ph. 378-2061, fax 378-3703 email: smithwNOSPAM@NOSPAM.math.byu.edu Remove NOSPAM for legitimate mail
From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Date: 10 Jan 1999 08:17:43 -0700 Organization: ARDI Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com Message-ID: <ufaezr2m3s.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> References: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Man leaves cat with brother to take care of during vacation. Man calls brother. Asks "how's cat?" Brother replies "Cat died." Man spends half an hour berating brother for not breaking the news gently, finishing up his lecture with: "...Honesty isn't as important as feelings. You could have made up a story and broken it to me slowly. First you could have told me that cat was stuck up on the roof but was otherwise doing fine. Later you could have told me cat fell off the roof, but was rushed to the vet and is otherwise doing fine. Still later you could tell me that cat was in a coma and it was looking bad. After that leadup, telling me that cat had died wouldn't have caused me as much pain. You should known better. I can't believe you were so blunt. Let me talk to Ma." brother pauses before saying "You can't. The phone cord won't stretch that far. Ma's stuck up on the roof." --Cliff ctm@ardi.com
From: "Alex Molochnikov" <alex@gestalt.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:25:26 -0700 Organization: Canada Connect Corp. Message-ID: <77b5r8$6st$1@cleavage.canuck.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> Michael wrote in message <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca>... >Doesn't WebObjects contain both? Isn't Apple just trying to simplify things by >selling it all as one development package? I remember reading a quote from >someone at Apple that suggested that WebObjects was now something of a >misnomer and that it encompassed the whole development environment. (I could >be wrong since I only know what I read.) > >Michael Monner > The real issue here is not the (un)availability of the stand-alone YB developer environment, but the fear of Apple reneging on their promise to provide a free (or nearly free) runtime environment of YB for Windows. Without easily obtainable YBW runtime environment applications developed for YBW can only be offered to the handful of fellow developers who happen to have WO rather than the millions of real end-users. Not exactly the market to work for. Alex Molochnikov Phoenix Data Trend
From: "Jin Kim" <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <adminkoff-1001990018350001@adsl108.phnx.uswest.net> Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <X66m2.1326$Ge3.7187787@news.itd.umich.edu> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:13:47 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:15:19 EDT Tony Minkoff wrote in message ... >> Apple should sell Intel boxes. > >Here's a thought: Apple should at least leave this opportunity open to itself. > >Yellow Box development tools produce fat binaries, that include both PPC >and x86 versions of the application. How about including a >processor-independent version, that can be compiled on the end-user's >system to a processor-specific version that will run natively on the >system, without access to the original source code? > >That way, if Apple decides some day in the future to produce computers >based on a Merced successor (or SPARC, or Alpha, or picoJava, or >whatever), they can produce an OS for the new system with the appropriate >compiler built in, and there will already be software out there (and in >the possession of users of Apple's existing systems) that can run natively >on the new system. Apple won't be locked into PPC, and if another chip >some day proves to be superior, it will have the opportunity to take >advantage of it. > OS X Server for Intel as _product_ is dead, not the actual code itself. The Intel build, as far as I know from reliable sources, is still being developed. Only 2 weeks behind PPC build. It just won't get sold as a product like the PPC build. I'm sure that fact will get some of you even more upset. Why not just sell the Intel build and make some money out of it???? Who knows.. some complicated business decision, I'm sure.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:26:16 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> In article <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au>, sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com (Sam) wrote: > You obviously do not care about the millions of jobs the Japanese > stole in western countries in many industries, thorough dumping, > stealing secrets and copying. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. This is with out the lamest of arguements I have ever heard. The only dumping that goes on is mainly from countries such as Korea(low tech and low labor prices) and in regards to to Steel. This is due to economic pressures on their country and not the issue. With regard to Japan....Well they made it because of the fact that AMERICANS forgot how to compete. The automakers were putting out cars in the seventies that SUXED ROCKS IN HELL. With gas prices skyrocketing who was going to drive one of those big ugly gas guzzelers. Or What about AMPEX, Thses guys decided that the VCR would never make it because it was too expensive to make and no one would buy it...WELL THEY WERE VERY WRONG. This list could ontinue but it is a waste of bandwidth. The bottom line is that the american companies got caught with there proverbial tumbs up their butts and the competition walked all over them. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 10 Jan 1999 18:23:23 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77ar6r$mdo$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0901990921580001@elk61.dol.net> <stone-0901992130230001@rc-pm3-2-09.enetis.net> <cS5m2.1325$Ge3.7178605@news.itd.umich.edu> (more Apple Watching) Jin Kim <kwazyjin@hotmail.com> wrote: : Come to think of it, even Apple hasn't shown any movement from traditional : MacOS to YellowBox with their traditional MacOS applications yet. This has come up from time to time ... been acknowledged ... and I think largely forgotten. It is a big question, why didn't Apple do even one YB application? : Apple is trying though. Even at the cost of some developers, as we've seen : on this news group, Apple's transitioning YellowBox to Java language. It is : much widely used language and just for that reason, it may get more : attention. I suppose they might be waiting to use that development envirionment. It could be a question of timeframes, with Carbon good for the short term and this future environment for the long term. I wonder what would Apple consider short term ... the two to three years(*) mentioned with respect to Obj-C to Java migration? John * - http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/bof.html
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:15:50 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77au95$sbf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> <stevehix-0901991856190001@192.168.1.10> <flat-1001990842450001@pm7-135.orf.infi.net> In article <flat-1001990842450001@pm7-135.orf.infi.net>, flat@flat.net (fLAt anTAgonISt) wrote: > The costs of purchasing a PC are hidden in the life-shortening > aggravation, eyestrain, tendinitis, techie-training, worrying about why it > wants me to type in all these arcane characters, why I'm playing games and > while my friend is producing music videos on his Mac, researching why this > PC locks up, researching again why it locks up, trying to resell it, etc. You never have those problems with the Mac. Instead you get cancelled products, changed strategies, unsupported hardware and a huge price tag. > Spend a few extra bucks up front and get a Mac. No thanks. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 10 Jan 1999 22:21:39 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> Message-ID: <19990110172139.05605.00005878@ng-ch1.aol.com> Michael Monner said: >Yet Another Layout Program isn't going to cut >it anyway, unless Greg can provide users with a reason to switch. Obviously you've never used PasteUp.app--it offers a myriad of reasons to switch, especially for those who can appreciate fine typography. PasteUp handles, for example, hanging punctuation which neither PageMaker, nor Quark can do (we'll leave unsaid Quark's non-support of em _spaces_). At least one will always be able to use TeX. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:08:13 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p223.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369908AC.5289EDBD@tone.ca> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <1dlf01v.1bm9m151qvepeiN@[10.0.0.3]> <EO0m2.17763$kR5.23869@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> <rex-1001991505240001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jan 1999 20:08:01 GMT Eric King wrote: > > Ah, the intriguing Creator2, a very nifty app, too bad the developers > of it are also being screwed over by Apple. You see to speed up > development those 'nuts' at Multi-Ad decided to use Quickdraw GX as > Creator2's graphics engine. Since GX isn't part of Carbon and is not going > to work in 8.6, they've got a *heap* of work to do in order to continue to > sell their product to Mac users. When dealing with Apple, it has been > shown, time and time again, that 'pushing the envelope' is a *bad* idea. > Thats one way of looking at it, but I havn't heard the people from Multi-ad complaining, and they are working with Apple on something that they won't talk about due to nda's, so who knows what the truth of this is. And quickdraw GX was mentioned as one of the items that would be covered within Extended Quickdraw in MacOSX. The original Quickdraw extensions won't work in 8.6, but I havn't heard that GXgraphics extension, which C2 uses, won't work. I expect it will. Michael Monner
From: "Jason Sims" <SPAMjason@SUCKSmacvertigo.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:31:59 -0700 Organization: Vertigo Message-ID: <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> >Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the >kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically >implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. What's with the attitude, man? I don't mean to get picky but you really shouldn't use the words like "pathological" when it's obvious your grasp of the English language is pretty weak. Bytemarks are only one type of benchmark testing, and quite frankly the whole benchmarking thing is a pretty flaky scene - there is always controversy over what tests do/do not reflect real-world performance, etc. etc. Everyone seems to take a different side on the issue and I have yet to see a definitive resolution to these arguments. >Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that >Apple is improving, and this is very important. Yes, Apple is improving, and has been for a long time. They've had a lot of hurdles to jump over and are really not doing that badly overall, considering the difficulties they've faced BESIDES figuring out a way to replace an aging OS without alienating what's left of their userbase. >Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the >only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) Although the P2 450 would be a lot less expensive. It's a give & take situation - you get a cheaper computer, you get an unintuitive operating system with a cruddy interface, yet a more powerful (if unreliable and an overly complicated mess of hacks) kernel. You buy a Mac, everything is easier to set up and customize, you're saving time right from the start - until you have to deal with programs crashing or being unresponsive because the system's memory management stinks and the machine cannot properly deal with multiple simultaneous tasks. Mac OS X should be the end of this argument. Apple can add the powerful features under the hood of their otherwise-superior operating system, but we all know Microsoft can never make their OS easy to use because it is a bunch of hacks designed to hold together all kinds of different computers that were stupidly designed with no standards to begin with. Jason Sims Editor-in-Chief Vertigo - http://www.macvertigo.com
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Date: 10 Jan 1999 21:34:36 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net In <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > No MacOS X for Intel anymore. I think Apple should have released it, at > least one version, without any fanfare at all, and at the high price > they're selling it for I seriously doubt it would cut into their hardware > sales in any significant amount at all. But the reasoning I've heard > behind it - that it would cut into their hardware sales - reminded me of > something I thought of a while back. > > Apple should sell Intel boxes. Already been advocated see an article I wrote: (The above idea is near the end) http://www.channelu.com/Articles/ClosedorOpen > Wait! Don't go berserk, I'm as die-hard a Mac advocate as anyone. I think > the PPC is definitely better than any of Intel's offerings, and the MacOS > is better than Windows, and all that. But I think Apple should be an > everything vendor. Let me explain. I agree I suspect PPC would do better in many arenas than x86. My suspicion now is that Apple is killing x86 because it would show that PPC isn't much faster than x86.. Another problem. This one I will keep harping on over and over. NO SMP.. Tell me press shops with 2/4 cpu PPC boxes is going to use Mac OS X w/o SMP. Don't think so.. Oh did I mention that even if they do get SMP it will only be available in non G3 boxes? (say G4, or what the 750 or 760).. Also one would have hoped with server they would have Firewire and FibreChannel drivers, but since they don't have SMP I guess this means they are not interested in the Server markets.. So why in the heck sell a server OS w/o a Workstation tier? It's a mystery.. Why no x86? Mysteries of the Unknown.. All I can say is whatever Apple fears will surely manifest.. > Apple should have three main divisions; interface, multimedia, and > enterprise. The interface division would make UIs (or just *the* UI, the > Mac interface) and hardware interfaces (like plastics, input devices, and > displays/speakers). The UI would run atop any base OS which can have > variable UIs - unixes, in other words. It could use X11, DPS, PDF, or > whatever you would like. The interface division would also sell various > apps which make the Mac interface what it is; Finder, Sherlock, etc. The > plastics would fit around a standard set of dimensions (what's the > Wintel-world standard? "XT" or something?), so the cases could be > interchangable. The input devices (mice, keyboards, tablets, gamepads, > joysticks, etc) would all be designed to match the different case-plastic > styles, as would displays and speakers. The multimedia division would make > QuickTime, FinalCut, and other media and content-creation tools. These > would be produced and sold across as many platforms as possible. Then > there's the enterprise division, formerly NeXT. This would produce WO, > EOF, "Diamond" (YB/OpenStep), and Carbon to ease the transition from the > MacOS Toolbox to Diamond. Perhaps a Win32 -> Diamond transitory API as > well. The enterprise division would also sell IB & PB. All this across as > many platforms as possible. Well how Apple should divide itself up to accomplish a x86 and PPC based box is debatable but since we now have pretty good information that Mac OS X anything for x86 will not be sold. It's a moot point.. I offered Apple a great idea in the above article - they failed to take me up on it. And I suspect they could have made a lot of $$. Why would Apple care what hardware it sold as long as they sold something and made a decent profit. > Then, Apple would also be a solutions vendor. They would sell console-like > boxes in the vein of the iMac, workstations/servers like PowerMacs (in > Slab [low-profile], Tower, and Cube [big fat stackable server box] forms), > powerfull laptops like PowerBooks, and a little handheld device like an > "iBook". These could use whatever the best processor for the job is; a > StrongARM in the iBook, a G3 in the iMac and PowerBook, and G4s, Alphas, > or Xeons in the PowerMacs. USB, FireWire, and Ethernet would be the > standard ports; all three in PowerMacs, USB and Ethernet in iMacs and > PowerBooks, and just USB in iBooks. Plus IR and PCMCIA across the board, > with fast/wide PCI in the PowerMacs. Audio/video chipsets could be > whatever does the job best, or even a BTO option. Then for software, the > core OS could be whatever the current best is - Mach, or Linux, or what > have you - with the latest versions of all the other unix tools, drivers, > etc included, and then Apple's technologies (Diamond and the Mac UI) atop > that. Basically, sell the customer whatever they want, all integrated with > Apple's own technologies (so, every box Apple sells - whatever the innards > - comes in Apple plastics, every OS Apple sell - again, whatever the > innards - comes with Apple APIs and UI). PPC would have been a excellent portable or low power computer.. This is what would have sold a lot of PPC Apple boxes. But in conjunction the sales and support of x86 boxes and x86 version of Mac OS X probably would have rocketed Apple right back into the mainstream.. What is clear to me - and I have posted on this previously is that Apple is leaning away from Obj -C and toward Java. This leaves YB in a very precarious position IMHO. With the pricing of Mac OS X Server and lack of tier pricing ($199-299 for Workstation - sans developer and WO) ($399-499 for Developer sans WO), ($999 for full) this now becomes even clearer IMO. And I'm not even including the fact that YB for NT isn't even shipping AFIAK since Apple still doesn't have a price for it.. (I'm willing to be corrected). > Any thoughts? > (And my sincerest appoligies for another "what Apple *should* do" post). > Been there done that. I have grown tired of doing solid in depth analysis of Apple's position and how they could make lemonaide from the lemons. Unfortunately the lemons are now rotting - how they could make lemon schnapps or something - that I'll leave to others.. Apple has no vision what-so-ever except to try to line it's pockets and to become the next MS/Intel juggernaut all by itself. Sorry I don't think so. The stock has gone up, guess that is good. I have to wonder how many Apple employees are now selling their shares.. Wish I could be CEO of Apple for like 1 year. Would turn all this crap into Gold for them and their shareholders.. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 10 Jan 1999 21:47:54 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <77b76a$qft$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com In <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > In article <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com>, > John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> writes: > Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > > Pardon my ignorance, I'm not a developer, and even if I was I couldn't > > have made it to MWSF anyway... > > > > These seems to be a lot of commotion on this group about OPENSTEP > > being dead, and GNUSTEP as an alternative. I haven't heard > > anything about this from anyone, and none of the discussion on > > this group seems to have openly stated "It's DEAD!". > > It's not that Apple has said that YB is dead. It's that they've > said (or strongly implied?) that MacOS-X Server for Intel is dead > before delivery, that they intend to move away from Objective-C > toward Java, etc. > > I think the reason that the NeXT community is taking this as > "Openstep is dead" is not that the API is dead, but that it is > currently demphasized until after Carbon > > This hits my understanding _right_ on the head. At the BOF, they > ("they"==Apple people) said that they were reevaluating where > YellowBox/NT fits in their business plan, or something to that effect. > At WWDC last May, the line was that they were working on a $20 > YellowBox/NT deployment package, and were hoping to have something in > six months or so. 6 months are up. They don't have it yet. And to my mind probably never will. War is raging in Apple and YB is withering on the vine IMHO. Apple can talk out its $ss that YB is here to stay. I suspect secretely they have been working very hard to convert to Java. I've said this before. I hoped someone could lay the idea flat - but it seems clear Apple is hedging bets even further - and doing this is to my mind clearly spelling the demise of YB.. Apple and Steve Jobs have said to many things that have not 'come to pass'. Frankly I'll never believe anything Apple says. I say put your money where your mouth is. Release Mac OS X Server for x86 or just shut the heck up.. It is becoming very clear Apple has no serious intentions of being a server OS or server hardware company.. As I have said before if WWDC 99 passes and we don't see SMP Mac OS X or SMP boxes you'll have a clear answer on this. Watch out for Carbon for Windows.. That will spell certian doom for YB. > My read is that Apple has decided that it's a hardware company, and > that extraneous stuff like YellowBox/NT will just have to wait. In > terms of the next year, this is probably a very good decision. In > terms of the next five years, this is probably a very bad decision. Yeah that is what Apple thinks. So why in the heck not offer x86 boxes and Mac OS X (whatever) on x86. I am now waving my hands good bye 2 Apple. And will be looking very hard at GNUstep in the coming year. MS and Linux has already claimed a number of shops I consult with.. And at least in the computational arenas in edu Linux on x86 is claiming a lot of grant $$. Nice to see U Scott. Sorry we find ourselves in such a sorry state of affairs.. Sincerely, Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: 11 Jan 1999 11:33:41 -0700 Organization: Brigham Young University Message-ID: <ygczp7phd6i.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> sanguish@digifix.com wrote: > Privately I've been told where the blame for this lays. The interesting thing about this is the influence scared people at Apple had on the big third-party developers, not the reverse. When Apple bought NeXT and then the CEO change took place, there was enough bad feeling at Apple (fear) that a number of scare tactics were employed by some people at Apple to encourage serious negative feedback (about what came to be called YB) with the big houses. Many of those folks are still at Apple, and continue to do the same things on a more subtle level. Avie is a busy man, but I wish he still maintained a net presence. And Mitch Green, where are you? -- Bill Smith, BYU mathematics dept. ph. 378-2061, fax 378-3703 email: smithwNOSPAM@NOSPAM.math.byu.edu Remove NOSPAM for legitimate mail
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:50:51 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-1101991350510001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> In article <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au>, sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com (Sam) wrote: > Since you are a dumb American who calls national tournaments World > Series I will take that into consideration Piss off, I do not like or watch baseball...As far as I am concerned it is a "lawyers sport", very boring. I played Rugby for 14 years. If you would like to meet on the pitch, I would be glad to round up some of my mates. You obviously know little about the diversity of the american peaple...WE ARE MANY, AND WE ARE DIFFERENT. Some carry guns while others carry "peace signs. Some burn the flag while others revere it. Some love all peaple while some hate all peaple. Can you say the same about your country? It is quite presumptive of you to assume that all or even most americans live and breath "Nationalism". We are a great nation because of our differences and us yanks take great pride in that fact. To quote Bill Murray "We are the rejects from every respectable country in the world, We are mutts" As for the american market, It does drive the world economy, Hell it is the only economy lately that has been worth a shit. The Japanese will learn the folly of their ways with regards to closed markets. Their protectionists stances merely delay the inevitable and make their own peaple suffer( the japanese peaple are the ones that have to pay the higher costs) granted it would be nice if the americans had a better shot at hocking our goods. Anyway, the japanese economy has been pretty much a bust for the last 6-8 years anyway so I doubt that much would sell even if we(the americans) could sell there. In case you have not noticed they are in a deep recession. Hell most of the world has been near or in recession the last several years. If it where not for the american economy the world would be in deep crap. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: Steven Kan <steven@kan.org> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 11 Jan 1999 10:57:23 PST Organization: SHINE Message-ID: <369A4990.A24@kan.org> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Sullivan wrote: > > Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the > kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically > implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. [snip] [sidenote: it's rude to post a very large article, especially when it would have been trivial to post a link instead, viz: http://finger.planetquake.com/plan.asp?userid=johnc&id=11135 ] I don't know quite what you're _bellowing_ at, but I must say I thought Carmack's notes were verging on a ringing endorsement. Carmack generally is a _very_ tough critic, especially of the Mac environment. For him to have personally appeared and demo'd QA is a watershed event for Mac gaming. Carmack's position as an industry luminary drives this point home even further. "Only Nixon could go to China." Well, now Carmack has gone to MacWorld. From a guy who has said, "I have zero respect for the MacOS on a technical basis" to "I see no reason why this won't be the perfect gaming platform," well that's progress. If id thinks Apple is worth developing for, so will other developers. Every criticism he made in his .plan file is valid, but that doesn't invalidate his endorsement of the product. In fact, despite the clunky innards that still exist within the OS, the newest Mac systems are "near the head of the pack," and will improve as the OS improves. Carmack long has been a fan of OpenStep (sp?), and this is the first step toward what I fully expect will be a very fruitful relationship between Apple and id. -- A rich man who hailed from Seattle #``````` Wrote Win95 to do battle, # ``````` But Mac users pity # ``````` The masses not witty # ``````` Enough to know Wintel's for cattle. #. ``````` ~ ~ . \_@_/ ``````` ^_@ o . V ``````` Steven "Rocket Man" Kan `-' - \_@_ ~ . ###### mailto:steven@kan.org V \ ~ . ###### http://www.kan.org ~ . #H2O## Everybody S.H.I.N.E. ~ .#POLO# Support Heterogeneity In Networked Environments ~ ~ ######
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:34:07 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p26.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <3699550B.FB7A39C8@tone.ca> References: <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> <19990110172139.05605.00005878@ng-ch1.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 01:33:52 GMT WillAdams wrote: > Michael Monner said: > >Yet Another Layout Program isn't going to cut > >it anyway, unless Greg can provide users with a reason to switch. > > Obviously you've never used PasteUp.app--it offers a myriad of reasons to > switch, especially for those who can appreciate fine typography. No I havn't. I've been waiting, what is it, 3 years now to try it out on my Mac hardware -- so I don't know how good it is. I'd dearly love to find out, but I may not get to because he's intimating he has no choice but to abandon it. Actually my comments weren't meant to be taken as directed at Greg specifically, but generically at the YB developers here who are threatening to give it all up. I can't argue with their motives and needs but I can try and offer other ways of looking at things to satisfy my own selfish need, to have some OSXS native apps come February. > > > PasteUp handles, for example, hanging punctuation which neither PageMaker, nor > Quark can do (we'll leave unsaid Quark's non-support of em _spaces_). At least > one will always be able to use TeX. > These examples also won't cut it. No one will switch apps for picky little details like this. (And anyway I'm currently using Creator2 which handles both. Yes, yes I know Creator2 will die a horrible death come 8.6. So some say, anyway.) What I want first of all is a layout program that does the job, and runs on a stable, nearly crash-proof OS. In my opinion a great number of Mac dtp shops will want to evaluate OSXS and PasteUp for this reason alone. Even if they don't need the server aspect of it, $995 is not a lot of money to spend to try and find a solution to stability problems. So what I'm saying here is that I think Greg can make a bunch of sales even before MacOSX comes out. And who knows, if he makes enough, maybe he can afford to do some things which will really beat the pants off the Carbon apps when they come across. Michael Monner > > William > > William Adams > http://members.aol.com/willadams > Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan11094245@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> <77b5r8$6st$1@cleavage.canuck.com> In-reply-to: "Alex Molochnikov"'s message of Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:25:26 -0700 Date: 11 Jan 99 09:42:45 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:03:21 PDT In article <77b5r8$6st$1@cleavage.canuck.com>, "Alex Molochnikov" <alex@gestalt.com> writes: Michael wrote in message <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca>... >Doesn't WebObjects contain both? Isn't Apple just trying to >simplify things by selling it all as one development package? I >remember reading a quote from someone at Apple that suggested that >WebObjects was now something of a misnomer and that it encompassed >the whole development environment. (I could be wrong since I only >know what I read.) The real issue here is not the (un)availability of the stand-alone YB developer environment, but the fear of Apple reneging on their promise to provide a free (or nearly free) runtime environment of YB for Windows. Without easily obtainable YBW runtime environment applications developed for YBW can only be offered to the handful of fellow developers who happen to have WO rather than the millions of real end-users. Not exactly the market to work for. It's worse than that - without a free or nearly free runtime, how do we hook new customers in the first place? We can go the old-fashioned high-overhead route of sending salespeople to knock on doors, but that's terribly inefficient. Or we can send out eval copies, or free-use copies like OmniWeb (free for one user per network segment). When discussing sales to customers, there's a broad class of apps for which a $20 runtime cost can be eaten by the vendor (with OpenStep, you pay for it by setting aside some of the development-time savings). But the ability to send out free evaluation copies is priceless, and cannot be replaced, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan11095630@slave.doubleu.com> References: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <tbrown-0901992240260001@da168.ecr.net> <77auav$sbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tbrown-1001992107080001@d222.ecr.net> In-reply-to: tbrown@netset.com's message of Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:07:08 -0500 Date: 11 Jan 99 09:56:30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:03:22 PDT In article <tbrown-1001992107080001@d222.ecr.net>, tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) writes: In article <77auav$sbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <tbrown-0901992240260001@da168.ecr.net>, > tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: >> I'm also struck on how the officially supported machine list has >> been edited down to G3s. It's nice to know that all those >> promises for supporting the 7500-9600 are relegated to "well it >> should install, but we won't make any promises". > >Isn't their something that we can do about this lawsuit wise? I've no idea. Even so, what's be the point? By the time it gets to court, and even if customers win, what difference would it make? Is Apple going to pay me back for my machine? After all is said and done, Apple would be forced to send out a million $200 rebate forms that can be applied to future purchases of Apple hardware, and a cadre of lawyers will take home an additional $200M in fees. I don't want to damage Apple, they seem to be doing well enough on that front on their own. And I don't particularily want to enter into an adversarial relationship with them. I can get that elsewhere, if that's what I wanted. I've said it before, if Apple kills the NeXT technology I'll never forgive them. This is the danger. Apple has more resentful developers and ex-developers than they have happy developers. When you move a developer from the happy box to the resentful box, you not only risk losing their advocacy, you risk _anti-advocacy_. This doesn't mean Apple can't make any changes, it just means that any changes Apple does make should be handled in a way that doesn't cut developers off at the knees. A couple years of unending low-level pain might just cause a developer to give up because they "don't get it". Pack the same couple years of continuous low-level pain into a couple _days_, meanwhile, and you've given the developer a focus for their anger. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 11 Jan 99 09:46:10 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan11094610@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> <1dlfdns.iqrkd2146bo08N@mp-212-174.daxnet.no> <36995761.6D4FEC29@tone.ca> In-reply-to: Michael's message of Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:44:05 -0500 In article <36995761.6D4FEC29@tone.ca>, Michael <michael@tone.ca> writes: Thomas Sivertsen wrote: > Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > > Doesn't WebObjects contain both? Isn't Apple just trying to > > simplify things by selling it all as one development package? I > > remember reading a quote from someone at Apple that suggested > > that WebObjects was now something of a misnomer and that it > > encompassed the whole development environment. (I could be > > wrong since I only know what I read.) > > Yeah, but they aren`t selling it as a deployment package, which > is the problem. They aren`t exactly promoting the parts that let > you build (traditional) complex applications in an elegant way > either. Now I'm really confused. The tools are all there but they aren't really because they aren't being promoted? Not quite. The tools are all there, but all you can do is develop YellowBox/NT applications. But there appears to be no means of deploying them to users. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:09:35 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:10:20 CDT In article <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com>, nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote: >> Apple should more energy into making great products, empowering >> developers, and focusing on consumers needs instead of hamping them. >> > >Great products... iMac. Empowering vendors does OpenGL count? Consumer >needs... Consumer and Pro lines of desktops and laptops. I didn't say that they failed _all_ the time. It's just that Apple is spending effort in geting in developers way, or leaving out that little piece which will make customers life easy. First the consumers: Where's the serial port on a G3 Pro? All those musicians are really happy right now. Waiting for a USB-MIDI (which ain't here yet and I'm puzzled by the lack of mention of Yamaha's mLan). If I don't buy a modem in the box, how do I connect to the internet (no cable modems here)? Where do I get the modem? I think dongles and all other devices work on the USB-ADB box (~$40), but not all serial devices work on a USB-Serial. So, why an ADB port and not a serial port? I can understand this a bit, as the USB-ADB devices prob. weren't done soon enough to allow Apple to risk not having ADB. Maybe the USB-Serial work seemed to be farther along? And there's always a PCI Serial card, but that won't bode well with customers who already think the Pro has too few PCI slots. What'd be the cost of adding a serial port(s)? And, why no Firewire in an iMac? Why have Apple officials stated, "There won't be FireWire in an iMac"? I didn't think the FW chips cost that much (and must be dropping as Apple needs them in volume for the G3 Pro). I'm not surprised that the Rev C version doesn't have them, but am a bit surprised to find that there's no plans at all. It is after all a 'consumer Mac' and Firewire is going to be in consumer products. And some for the developers: It takes _zero_ effort to simply not talk about getting rid of Obj-c, or to plan it's demise. Minimal effort to ensure that it stays around for a long time to come actually. Why piss off your developers? Instead, spend the time talking about how Yellow will be this primo Java development environment. One of the quotes said something about 'native java compiling'. I'd like to have heard more about that. Maybe I would have if Apple was focusing ahead instead of on what they can needlessly kill. At the very least, it would have reduced some of the noise, and we'd have gotten more signal from MacWorld. Positive forward thinking instead of a rolling black cloud. What nimwit thought that up at Apple? OSXS Intel is already done. Sure it won't have the hw support that it really needs to thrive as a product. The people who NEED it, know that, and already have machines it will run on. They aren't looking for OSXS Intel to thrive, they are looking for _them_ to thrive. Is it too much for Apple to deliver on a promise? Again, more signal, less noise. Just takes a bit of balls and following through on promises. There are headaches and support problems here. But, those problems come from current Apple customers even if most were inherited from NeXT. Esp when WebObjects is supposed to be a big deal. I'm sure most current WebObjects sites aren't very happy with this decision. How do you plan a new future when you trod all over the past users? It's not a good way to build confidence. What are the downsides: bad press over mimimal driver support? At $1000 everyone who buys it will already know (hence, no problem). People buying Intel HW instead of G3 Pros? Not for a $1000 end of the line OS they won't. On the other hand, some would buy it to see if they would like OS X Server ( and OS X) and then buy Apple HW (or simply be allowed to buy Apple hw). What's this about OSXS being G3 only? Considering that all the DR releases ran on PCI Macs, Apple promised that it would run on PCI macs, and given the high cost of it anyway, why'd Apple drop them from the list? Why ZERO mention for the reason? Sure this would have caused a bunch of noise, but it's a better than sweeping it under the carpet and hoping that no one will notice (much like they did OSXS Intel). I'm not saying that Apple hasn't done some things right. I'm just saying that if they put all their effort there, they'd be making better products and have a better relationship with it's developers and customers. That's what pays off. I'm sure that Carbon developers are noting the knife stuck in the Yellow developers back. It only adds to their paranoia and confirms that it's 'the same old Apple'. That's what doesn't pay off. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:16:15 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Message-ID: <36995EEF.58C394B7@cygnus.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> <77b5r8$6st$1@cleavage.canuck.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex Molochnikov wrote: > > Michael wrote in message <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca>... > >Doesn't WebObjects contain both? Isn't Apple just trying to simplify things > by > >selling it all as one development package? I remember reading a quote from > >someone at Apple that suggested that WebObjects was now something of a > >misnomer and that it encompassed the whole development environment. (I > could > >be wrong since I only know what I read.) > > > >Michael Monner > > > > The real issue here is not the (un)availability of the stand-alone YB > developer environment, but the fear of Apple reneging on their promise to > provide a free (or nearly free) runtime environment of YB for Windows. I think you're still understating it. I don't just expect Apple to reneg on the promise to deliver _any_ Openstep based runtime and/or development environment for Windows, I don't trust Apple to do _ANYTHING_ that they say they're going to do, especially those things which are important to me.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Message-ID: <tbrown-1001992213590001@d222.ecr.net> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:13:59 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:14:41 CDT In article <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: >Because of this paradox, it's best to make noise before Apple commits itself >to doing bad things, at which point it will dig its heels in. Now if Apple >changes its mind and ships an OS X worstation, or OS X Server/Intel, it can >pretend that it intended to do so all the time, and we were just silly sots >taken in by rumors. I'd really love to be able to add to my .sig "silly sot taken in by rumors". -- tbrown@netset.com
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Message-ID: <tbrown-1001992107080001@d222.ecr.net> References: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <tbrown-0901992240260001@da168.ecr.net> <77auav$sbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:07:08 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:07:51 CDT In article <77auav$sbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <tbrown-0901992240260001@da168.ecr.net>, > tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: > >> I'm also struck on how the officially supported machine list has been >> edited down to G3s. It's nice to know that all those promises for >> supporting the 7500-9600 are relegated to "well it should install, but we >> won't make any promises". > >Isn't their something that we can do about this lawsuit wise? I've no idea. Even so, what's be the point? By the time it gets to court, and even if customers win, what difference would it make? Is Apple going to pay me back for my machine? Is the threat supposed to make Apple come clean? Maybe it would. But, at $1000/copy, I really don't care. Apple's best hope (for me personally) is that I forgive them when OS X is released and buy a Mac. Otherwise, I'm looking at my last piece of Apple hw (and it wasn't even bought new). I've said it before, if Apple kills the NeXT technology I'll never forgive them. I'd resigned myself to watching NeXT wither away (well that's what it looked like from afar). But what Apple's doing, it's like buying the Mona Lisa then ripping the painting out and putting 'Elvis on Velvet' in the frame. Look! What a great piece of art! And oh yeah, I'm a Mac OS user. But, I've used and programmed for NeXTSTEP (not even OpenStep) and it just plain spoiled me. I know how Jobs can sleep thru this, I'm wondering how Avie can. It surprises me, but I'm just a wee bit bitter. For now, the jury is still out. Maybe Yellow will be nicely supported in OS X and in the future by Apple. But I suspect that I called it back when I said that if Apple wasn't using Yellow to make the Finder in OS X that it was a very bad sign. By all accounts they aren't, and things aren't looking so good now. Technology that Apple doesn't use, is technolgy that Apple lets wither on the vine (w/o widespread developer/customer support). Guess what? Yellow as zero developer support, little use inside Apple, and zero customer support. There's WebObjects, but as Apple has demonstrated, you can have WebObjects w/o Yellow. Witness: WebObjects/NT sans Yellow/NT. Is there a reason I shouldn't be cynical right now? -- tbrown@netset.com
From: jmuccigr@drew.edu (John D. Muccigrosso) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:19:45 -0500 Organization: Drew University Message-ID: <jmuccigr-1001992319450001@pc164-183.drew.edu> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <casper-0901991347500001@192.168.1.3> <jmuccigr-0901991623230001@pc164-167.drew.edu> <slrn79fprr.v0r.jedi@dementia.mishnet> In article <slrn79fprr.v0r.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: >>First, if it ever occurs to you to say "I could build my own computer for >>less" and are even remotely capable of doing this, you are not the target >>market for the iMac. (A slightly less accurate formulation of this would >>be "If you post to newsgroups like this one...".) > > That's not entirely relevant. Plenty of us have provided > examples and sources for $500-$1000 pre-assembled machines > for the casual use crowd. Right. That's a different issue, but there were plenty of people in this thread discussing homemade PCs. This thread still hasn't had a good reply from the Wintel defenders about total cost of ownership. John D. Muccigrosso Classics Department jmuccigr@drew.edu Drew University Voice (973) 408-3029 Madison, NJ 07940 FAX (973) 408-3150 http://www.depts.drew.edu/~classics/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."
From: neko@mbay.net (neko) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:25:50 -0800 Organization: the society to ban capital letters Message-ID: <neko-1101991625500001@mty5-35.dip.mbay.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> you're inferior, because <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com>, "Jason Sims" <SPAMjason@SUCKSmacvertigo.com> wrote: |Bytemarks are only one type of benchmark testing, and quite frankly the |whole benchmarking thing is a pretty flaky scene - there is always |controversy over what tests do/do not reflect real-world performance, etc. |etc. Everyone seems to take a different side on the issue and I have yet to |see a definitive resolution to these arguments. *snip* heh. if i ever teach computer science, my first assignment will be to build a set of benchmarks to prove that an imac is faster than a pentium iii-600 which is faster than a trs-80 which is faster than an imac. -- -- neko *meow* 'capital letters were always the best way to deal with things you don't have a good answer for.' -- douglas adams
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.os.linux.misc Subject: GNUstep FAQ update From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <3698e9b2.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 10 Jan 1999 17:56:02 GMT Due to severe lack of manpower, much of the GNUstep website (including the FAQ) is (literally) years out of date. In an attempt to do something about this, I'd lke to have a go at putting together a new FAQ. Could anyone/everyone having any interest whatsover in this, please email me with any questions they have about GNUstep (or any suggestions about what information should appear in the FAQ) Thanks
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 11 Jan 1999 04:47:23 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn79j0ir.r1p.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77b76a$qft$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 04:47:23 GMT :Apple can talk out its $ss that YB is here to stay. I suspect secretely :they have been working very hard to convert to Java. It hasn't been a secret. Objective-C being replaced by the Java langauge has been ongoing for a while. They want two good development platforms, Carbon, and Java, the latter branched into Sun libraries and Yellow libraries. Yellow Box with Java is nearly the same as YB with O-C. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: 11 Jan 1999 05:02:16 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 01/10/99, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: >agave_@hotmail.com wrote: >> Isn't everyone jumping the gun here? The only thing I've read out >> of the Expo from somebody at Apple is that "At this time, Apple has no >> plans to productize the Intel OS." The source of the quote wasn't cited >> so I don't know if that's an official statement or not but look at what >> was said. > >When you have people like Scott Anguish, Scott Hess, and Don Yacktman thinking >that it's so, I think you can rely on it. > All I know for sure about the Intel product is what I was told by Ernie at the BOF. "There are no plans at this time to productize the Intel port." Privately I've been told where the blame for this lays. I'm not sure that I believe it, but its interesting fodder. I think Apple should be held to its obligation of a 1.0 release for Intel. Apple keeping its word is crucial to any long-term relationships. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 11 Jan 1999 05:17:14 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77c1gq$pqq$1@news.digifix.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> In-Reply-To: <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> On 01/08/99, "Lawson English" wrote: >spagiola@my-dejanews.com said: > >>Scott Anguish has posted a very eloquent statement on the high cost of Mac >>OS X Server on the Stepwise site: >> >>http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/ >>highcost.html >> > >I agree with much of what Scott says. However, I take issue with this >statement: > >".... We've also seen that the Macintosh developer community still holds >significant distain for the product and for the OpenStep community." > > >I think that this isn't the case. You need only look to the (now deleted) comments in the MacWeek article referenced in "Damned if you do.." on Stepwise. These were Mac developers talking. I have many other private instances of having to deal with it. I'm sure other YB developers do too. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com> <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 11 Jan 1999 05:18:38 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> In-Reply-To: <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> On 01/08/99, "Lawson English" wrote: > > >>So let's see... we screw veteran OPENSTEP developers and brave Mac >>developers >>who have made the move the Yellow Box so as to reassure Mac developers, >>and we >>do this in a way that is guaranteed to increase Mac developers' mistrust >of >>Apple's ability/willingness to follow through on its commitments. Yep, >>makes >>perfect sense. > >Make a distinction here: Apple makes moves to placate Microsoft, Adobe, >MacroMind and the other "top 100 Mac developers" while increasing the >smaller developer's mistrust of Apple's ability/willingness to follow >through on its commitments. Wouldn't the "top 100 Mac developers" include alot of those independent small shops that you just claimed were YB positive? Apple keeps its word and ships the product in the form that it promised (if not the timeframe) and Mac devs piss on them. Ain't that a bitch.. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mrjones@mindspring.com (Mark Haase) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:29:17 -0500 Organization: WEBeam Message-ID: <mrjones-1101991929180001@user-38lcogh.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> .GXUfmK'b9gDZEBv|@A&qq5kF6KH~L-)}IJxCV{o|87_lT8VRRVF$ Please don't post such explicit material to a public forum like comp.sys.mac.misc, or any of the other groups you x-posted to. Also, DON'T CROSSPOST! I'm sorry to say it, but x-posting is one of the biggest signs of newbie-ism. +-----------------------------+ | Mark Haase / | savar@mindspring.com \ | mhaase@pace.atl.ga.us / +----------------------------+
From: Loshadh <no_email_please@thanks.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:41:51 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369A9A4B.6D69@thanks.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 00:32:15 GMT Newsgroups trimmed and followups set. We don't need a platform war in a gaming newsgroup.
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:05:10 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:00:59 PDT In article <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>, "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote: >Apple could make a clean Intel computer with Firewire, >USB, Rage 128, 100-base-T, a similar PCI setup & standard PC >memory (no serial ports, parallel, keyboard, PS/2 etc). Yes, exactly! Basically a Mac, but with an x86 processor. Users buying new Macs could choose slightly cheaper and less powerfull, or slightly faster and more expensive. >>> Apple should have three main divisions; interface, multimedia, and enterprise. > >Interesting separation. Ergonomics & GUI, Quicktime & Final Cut, YB/WebObjects/Carbon >That forgets hardware itself (or did I misread?) and assumes the OS is 3rd party (unix). Well, Apple's current hardware is almost entirely third-party. They've got their own plastics and their own motherboards, maybe a few controller chips and ASICs for their own ports (ADB, Mac-style moonitors). PCI is standard, EIDE is standard, PowerPC is made by IBM or Motorola, Rage is from ATI, they get their HDs from Quantum (right?), almost all of their hardware they out-source. In my proposed system, they only make the plastics, and assemble boxes from standard parts. So they'd still sell hardware boxes, they would just out-source the few remaining proprietary parts (maybe spin off a different company to make standard PPC-centric motherboards), and also sell their plastics for other people who want to build their own boxes. And the OS, likewise, has a 3rd party core as well (at least, OS X does), BSD 4.4. The kernel is standard Mach, the POSIX API is an open standard, the unix utilities are all open standard, DPS (or PDF is the consumer version) is Adobe's.... Only YB, Carbon, QT, the Mac UI, and the other high-level stuff which makes the Mac and NeXT what they are are Apple-made, and those would come from the three divisions above. Then the "soloutions" part of Apple, which assembles the packages which the customer at large would be buying (computers, operating systems), would take whatever the current best core OS is, be it BSD or Linux or what have you, and tie all their good stuff together with it. But users who don't like that particular setup, say it's the current MacOS X Server, could buy Redhat Linux, YB for Linux, QT for Linux, and MacUI for X11 (or DPS plus MacUI for DPS), install it all on their machine, and have their own "Mac OS X" system. -- -Forrest Cameranesi Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: "Todd Heberlein (todd at NetSQ dot com)" <todd@dev.null> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: The Long, Slow Death of OpenStep Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:52:17 -0800 Organization: Net Squared, Inc. Message-ID: <77c7dv$td7$1@your.mother.com> I can't help feeling that I am observing the long, slow death of OpenStep. I fear that it is a death by attrition - destruction of the customer base, thus driving away developers. When Apple announces that it is halting development of OpenStep next year, there will probably be only a handful of developers left to complain. Would the last developer to leave the newsgroup please turn out the lights? Todd Short history (please annotate and correct): o 1993 NeXT discontinues NeXTstations *before* shipping NEXTSTEP/Intel. o NeXT prices user seats for NEXTSTEP/Intel so high, virtually no new customers come into the market; likewise, NeXT prices developer seats so high, no new developers come into the market. (can someone name the prices?) o 1996 - A number of well known developers, including Greg Anderson, announce they are leaving the OpenStep market. o 1997 Apple purchases NeXT. At MWSF CEO announces Rhapsody (with OpenStep) will ship in a year, for both Mac and Intel, and OpenStep for Windows would have no runtime costs. Excitement abounds again. o 1997 In the meantime, NEXTSTEP and OpenStep/Windows effectively disappears from the market. No new customers enter the market. o 1998 - At Apple's developers conference iCEO announces the end of the Rhapsody strategy as we know it and announces MacOS X. MacOS APIs are declared the "crown jewels" of the company. Rhapsody, now repositioned as MacOS X Server, is to ship fall quarter, but it may be the last of the line for Intel. o 1998 - Fall comes and goes, but not MacOS X Server. Rumors of MacOS X Server being cancelled are squashed by Apple with an emphatic, "it will ship by the end of the year". The end of the year comes and goes. o 1999 - Apple doesn't ship in 1998. A year late, with no customers entering the market, Apple at least acknowledges MacOS X Server, and says it will ship in February, no announced support for Intel, no announced support for any Macs beside G3s, and a price that will keep it off virtually everyone's desktop system. 1999 - Apple begins discouraging Objective C and encouraging Java, even when using the OpenStep APIs. One has to wonder why? o 1999 - After over two years of no new customers, and the future potential customer base being drastically cut, OpenStep developers again start announcing they are leaving the market. I really hope in a year from now someone can point out how wrong I am. I just fear that with Apple supporting MacOS/Carbon, Java, and BSD, it doesn't want to (or cannot) support, enhance, and extend a fourth API. The attrition approach means there will hardly be anyone around to raise their voice when the trigger is finally pulled.
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77e43j$6vv$1@decius.ultra.net> Message-ID: <p1xm2.3788$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:52:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:52:37 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77e43j$6vv$1@decius.ultra.net> Josh Brandt wrote: > > In article <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > The MacOS is far superior to, say, DOS, which wasn't really an OS. > > MacOS 8.5 is far superior to, say, Atari TOS. Or to System 5. Or to System > 6.0.x, where x is 1-8. Or System 7.0. Or System 7.6.1, for god's sake, which > stunk on ice. Or to ProDOS. Or to MVS. Or to CP/CMS. Or to RT-11. (Sorry, > PDP-11 fans, but I thought it was stinky.) Or to OS 9, on the TRS-80. > > It beats the heck out of all of those. And for presentation, it's still > about the most elegant and most usable OS I've ever seen. (And I've used > them all Not once have I said that I thought windows was the answer. Windows is a good gaming platform, as an operating system it is every bit as pathetic as macos. I use a variety of unices at home and at school, all of which have their strengths and faults, all of which put any of microsoft's or apple's offerings to shame.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 00:28:50 -0800 Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that Apple is improving, and this is very important. Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) John Carmack Id Software | Jan 10 1999, 16:52:49 (PT) | johnc@idsoftware.com Post your comments on this plan at the bottom of the page, or view the 22 already available... Name: John Carmack Email: johnc@idsoftware.com Description: Programmer Project: Quake Arena ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1/10/99 ------- Ok, many of you have probably heard that I spoke at the macworld keynote on tuesday. Some information is probably going to get distorted in the spinning and retelling, so here is an info dump straight from me: Q3test, and later the full commercial Quake3: Arena, will be simultaniously released on windows, mac, and linux platforms. I think Apple is doing a lot of things right. A lot of what they are doing now is catch-up to wintel, but if they can keep it up for the next year, they may start making a really significant impact. I still can't give the mac an enthusiastic reccomendation for sophisticated users right now because of the operating system issues, but they are working towards correcting that with MacOS X. The scoop on the new G3 mac hardware: Basically, its a great system, but Apple has oversold its performance reletive to intel systems. In terms of timedemo scores, the new G3 systems should be near the head of the pack, but there will be intel systems outperforming them to some degree. The mac has not instantly become a "better" platform for games than wintel, it has just made a giant leap from the back of the pack to near the front. I wish Apple would stop quoting "Bytemarks". I need to actually look at the contents of that benchmark and see how it can be so misleading. It is pretty funny listening to mac evangelist types try to say that an iMac is faster than a pentium II-400. Nope. Not even close. From all of my tests and experiments, the new mac systems are basically as fast as the latest pentium II systems for general cpu and memory performance. This is plenty good, but it doesn't make the intel processors look like slugs. Sure, an in-cache, single precision, multiply-accumulate loop could run twice as fast as a pentium II of the same clock rate, but conversly, a double precision add loop would run twice as fast on the pentium II. Spec95 is a set of valid benchmarks in my opinion, and I doubt the PPC systems significantly (if at all) outperform the intel systems. The IO system gets mixed marks. The 66 mhz video slot is a good step up from 33 mhz pci in previous products, but that's still half the bandwidth of AGP 2X, and it can't texture from main memory. This will have a small effect on 3D gaming, but not enough to push it out of its class. The 64 bit pci slots are a good thing for network and storage cards, but the memory controller doesn't come close to getting peak utilization out of it. Better than normal pci, though. The video card is almost exactly what you will be able to get on the pc side: a 16 mb rage-128. Running on a 66mhz pci bus, it's theoretical peak performance will be midway between the pci and agp models on pc systems for command traffic limited scenes. Note that current games are not actually command traffic limited, so the effect will be significantly smaller. The fill rates will be identical. The early systems are running the card at 75 mhz, which does put it at a slight disadvantage to the TNT, but faster versions are expected later. As far as I can tell, the rage-128 is as perfect as the TNT feature-wise. The 32 mb option is a feature ATI can hold over TNT. Firewire is cool. Its a simple thing, but the aspect of the new G3 systems that struck me the most was the new case design. Not the flashy plastic exterior, but the functional structure of it. The side of the system just pops open, even with the power on, and lays the motherboard and cards down flat while the disks and power supply stay in the encloser. It really is a great design, and the benefits were driven home yesterday when I had to scavenge some ram out of old wintel systems yesterday -- most case designs suck really bad. --- I could gripe a bit about the story of our (lack of) involvement with Apple over the last four years or so, but I'm calling that water under the bridge now. After all the past fiascos, I had been basically planning on ignoring Apple until MacOS X (rhapsody) shipped, which would then turn it into a platform that I was actually interested in. Recently, Apple made a strategic corporate decision that games were a fundamental part of a consumer oriented product line (duh). To help that out, Apple began an evaluation of what it needed to do to help game developers. My first thought was "throw out MacOS", but they are already in the process of doing that, and its just not going to be completed overnight. Apple has decent APIs for 2D graphics, input, sound, and networking, but they didn't have a solid 3D graphics strategy. Rave was sort of ok. Underspecified and with no growth path, but sort of ok. Pursuing a proprietary api that wasn't competetive with other offerings would have been a Very Bad Idea. They could have tried to make it better, or even invent a brand new api, but Apple doesn't have much credebility in 3D programming. For a while, it was looking like Apple might do something stupid, like license DirectX from microsoft and be put into a guaranteed trailing edge position behind wintel. OpenGL was an obvious direction, but there were significant issues with the licensing and implementation that would need to be resolved. I spent a day at apple with the various engineering teams and executives, laying out all the issues. The first meeting didn't seem like it went all that well, and there wasn't a clear direction visible for the next two months. Finally, I got the all clear signal that OpenGL was a go and that apple would be getting both the sgi codebase and the conix codebease and team (the best possible arrangement). So, I got a mac and started developing on it. My first weekend of effort had QuakeArena limping along while held together with duct tape, but weekend number two had it properly playable, and weekend number three had it brought up to full feature compatability. I still need to do some platform specific things with odd configurations like multi monitor and addon controlers, but basically now its just a matter of compiling on the mac to bring it up to date. This was important to me, because I felt that Quake2 had slipped a bit in portability because it had been natively developed on windows. I like the discipline of simultanious portable development. After 150 hours or so of concentrated mac development, I learned a lot about the platform. CodeWarrior is pretty good. I was comfortable devloping there almost immediately. I would definately say VC++ 6.0 is a more powerful overall tool, but CW has some nice little aspects that I like. I am definately looking forward to CW for linux. Unix purists may be aghast, but I have allways liked gui dev environments more than a bunch of xterms running vi and gdb. The hardware (even the previous generation stuff) is pretty good. The OpenGL performance is pretty good. There is a lot of work underway to bring the OpenGL performance to the head of the pack, but the existing stuff works fine for development. The low level operating systems SUCKS SO BAD it is hard to believe. The first order problem is lack of memory management / protection. It took me a while to figure out that the zen of mac development is "be at peace while rebooting". I rebooted my mac system more times the first weekend than I have rebooted all the WinNT systems I have ever owned. True, it has gotten better now that I know my way around a bit more, and the codebase is fully stable, but there is just no excuse for an operating system in this day and age to act like it doesn't have access to memory protection. The first thing that bit me was the static memory allocation for the program. Modern operating systems just figure out how much memory you need, but because the mac was originally dsigned for systems without memory management, significant things have to be laid out ahead of time. Porting a win32 game to the mac will probably involve more work dealing with memory than any other aspect. Graphics, sound, and networking have reasonable analogues, but you just can't rely on being able to malloc() whatever you want on the mac. Sure, game developers can manage their own memory, but an operating system that has proper virtual memory will let you develop a lot faster. The lack of memory protection is the worst aspect of mac development. You can just merrily write all over other programs, the development environment, and the operating system from any application. I remember that. From dos 3.3 in 1990. Guard pages will help catch simple overruns, but it won't do anything for all sorts of other problems. The second order problem is lack of preemptive multitasking. The general responsiveness while working with multiple apps is significantly worse than windows, and you often run into completely modal dialogs that don't let you do anything else at all. A third order problem is that a lot of the interfaces are fairly clunky. There are still many aspects of the mac that clearly show design decisions based on a 128k 68000 based machine. Wintel has grown a lot more than the mac platform did. It may have been because the intel architecture didn't evolve gracefully and that forced the software to reevaluate itself more fully, or it may just be that microsoft pushed harder. Carbon sanitizes the worst of the crap, but it doesn't turn it into anything particularly good looking. MacOS X nails all these problems, but thats still a ways away. I did figure one thing out -- I was always a little curious why the early BeOS advocates were so enthusiastic. Coming from a NEXTSTEP background, BeOS looked to me like a fairly interesting little system, but nothing special. To a mac developer, it must have looked like the promised land...
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan10214001@slave.doubleu.com> References: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> In-reply-to: John Jensen's message of 9 Jan 1999 19:21:55 GMT Date: 10 Jan 99 21:40:01 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 01:59:52 PDT In article <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes: I think the interesting thing, in retrospect, is the smooth way Apple changed directions: - first a roughly equal PPC/Intel strategy - then a PPC stratety with one Intel release - then no Intel release They achieved a big change in strategy without any real shockwaves. I know the pain is felt here, but I don't see it in the popular press. The press is still talking about a successful new strategy, etc. Eh? That's a really weird read on things, almost as if the press was even aware that there was a thing such as OpenStep before Apple pushed it. Roll things back a bit, and tell me whether dropping the first two items from the above transition would have made any more waves than having all three items did? I will grant that current management didn't have much choice, because prior management started the ball rolling. But, to be honest, I've never seen Intel as being that scary at all for the existing MacOS installed base. What was scary was OpenStep, Intel was a complete background thread, and probably got deep-sixed more because of it's potential for confusion ("Why can't I run things in a bluebox on Intel?") than because anyone was frightened of it. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:51:14 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1101991651150001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369A4990.A24@kan.org> In article <369A4990.A24@kan.org>, steven@kan.org wrote: > http://finger.planetquake.com/plan.asp?userid=johnc&id=11135 > > > ... I must say I thought > Carmack's notes were verging on a ringing endorsement. Carmack generally > is a _very_ tough critic, especially of the Mac environment. For him to > have personally appeared and demo'd QA is a watershed event for Mac > gaming. Yes. For those of you who haven't paid attention, JC has also been a very harsh critic of Microsoft, and occasionally various hardware manufacturers (ie, some 3D chipmakers, and perhaps even Intel, I'm not sure). He basically shat all over Direct3D in the early days, I'm sure being partly responsible for the improvements that have been made to it since then--and he still refuses to use it (and remember, he said Apple would have made a horrible mistake to license DirectX from Microsoft--he WANTS Apple to succeed!) > Carmack's position as an industry luminary drives this point home even > further. "Only Nixon could go to China." Well, now Carmack has gone to > MacWorld. From a guy who has said, "I have zero respect for the MacOS on > a technical basis" to "I see no reason why this won't be the perfect > gaming platform," well that's progress. If id thinks Apple is worth > developing for, so will other developers. > > Every criticism he made in his .plan file is valid, but that doesn't > invalidate his endorsement of the product. In fact, despite the clunky > innards that still exist within the OS, the newest Mac systems are "near > the head of the pack," and will improve as the OS improves. Carmack long > has been a fan of OpenStep (sp?), and this is the first step toward what > I fully expect will be a very fruitful relationship between Apple and > id. -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
From: sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com (Sam) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:49:38 GMT Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider Message-ID: <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:26:16 -0500, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >In article <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au>, sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com >(Sam) wrote: > >> You obviously do not care about the millions of jobs the Japanese >> stole in western countries in many industries, thorough dumping, >> stealing secrets and copying. > >GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. This is with out the lamest of arguements I have >ever heard. The only dumping that goes on is mainly from countries such >as Korea(low tech and low labor prices) and in regards to to Steel. This >is due to economic pressures on their country and not the issue. Give me a fucking break They don't have to dump much now, they have decimated the Motorcycle, Television, supercomputers and others. What about my stealing and copying comment. >With regard to Japan....Well they made it because of the fact that >AMERICANS forgot how to compete. Well excuse me, I wish to remind you that there is more to the world then just the good old USA. I am not from the land of the couch potato. >. The automakers were putting out cars in >the seventies that SUXED ROCKS IN HELL. With gas prices skyrocketing who >was going to drive one of those big ugly gas guzzelers. Or What about >AMPEX, Thses guys decided that the VCR would never make it because it was >too expensive to make and no one would buy it...WELL THEY WERE VERY >WRONG. This list could ontinue but it is a waste of bandwidth. The >bottom line is that the american companies got caught with there >proverbial tumbs up their butts and the competition walked all over them. My central point was that the Japanese compete HARD in other peoples countries, NOT their own. Their markets are heavily protected through law, market and cultural barriers. Since you are a dumb American who calls national tournaments World Series I will take that into consideration It would help if your country didn't dump wheat and other farm products in our markets as well. Sam
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77e43j$6vv$1@decius.ultra.net> Message-ID: <P5xm2.3790$xq4.1040@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:57:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:57:19 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77e43j$6vv$1@decius.ultra.net> Josh Brandt wrote: > > In article <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > > >Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented > >coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. > > Oh, goodness. "The worst operating system ever?" > > Where have _you_ been, my friend? > > The MacOS is far superior to, say, DOS, which wasn't really an OS. > > MacOS 8.5 is far superior to, say, Atari TOS. Or to System 5. Or to System > 6.0.x, where x is 1-8. Or System 7.0. Or System 7.6.1, for god's sake, which > stunk on ice. Or to ProDOS. Or to MVS. Or to CP/CMS. Or to RT-11. (Sorry, > PDP-11 fans, but I thought it was stinky.) Or to OS 9, on the TRS-80. > > It beats the heck out of all of those. And for presentation, it's still > about the most elegant and most usable OS I've ever seen. (And I've used > them all, at some point...)- What does dos have to do with this anyway? Dos sucked in the 80s and it sucks just as bad now.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 11 Jan 1999 12:06:07 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> Sam (sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com) wrote: : On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:26:16 -0500, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) : wrote: : >In article <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au>, sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com : >(Sam) wrote: : > : >> You obviously do not care about the millions of jobs the Japanese : >> stole in western countries in many industries, thorough dumping, : >> stealing secrets and copying. : > : >GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. This is with out the lamest of arguements I have : >ever heard. The only dumping that goes on is mainly from countries such : >as Korea(low tech and low labor prices) and in regards to to Steel. This : >is due to economic pressures on their country and not the issue. : Give me a fucking break : They don't have to dump much now, they have decimated the Motorcycle, : Television, supercomputers and others. I don't know that the Japanese has "decimated" Supercomputers. The demise of the various American supercomputer companies have more to do with the changes both within the industry and external (such as what the US gov's purchase decisions). With regards to Motorcycles and Television, it is without a doubt in my mind that a lot had to do with the quality of the merchandise, which often rightly deserved praise they get in terms of quality. : What about my stealing and copying comment. What about it? If you're going to make gross generalizations, and broadbased accusations, then what can anyone say about it? Your mind is made up, and there's no use discussing it. : >With regard to Japan....Well they made it because of the fact that : >AMERICANS forgot how to compete. : Well excuse me, I wish to remind you that there is more to the world : then just the good old USA. I am not from the land of the couch : potato. What industrious nation would you hail from then? I would like to begin to collect gross generalizations immediately. : >. The automakers were putting out cars in : >the seventies that SUXED ROCKS IN HELL. With gas prices skyrocketing who : >was going to drive one of those big ugly gas guzzelers. Or What about : >AMPEX, Thses guys decided that the VCR would never make it because it was : >too expensive to make and no one would buy it...WELL THEY WERE VERY : >WRONG. This list could ontinue but it is a waste of bandwidth. The : >bottom line is that the american companies got caught with there : >proverbial tumbs up their butts and the competition walked all over them. : My central point was that the Japanese compete HARD in other peoples : countries, NOT their own. : Their markets are heavily protected through law, market and cultural : barriers. I would almost agree with you, if you didn't have to stoop so low and start to overgeneralize and insult people. : Since you are a dumb American who calls national tournaments World : Series I will take that into consideration Damn, I knew those Canadians were really Americans. FWIW, I'd like to see a real world series, maybe even with the Japanese championship team, although the leagues are still uneven in strength. A few more years, and with more movement of players in both directions, things might even up at bit more. : It would help if your country didn't dump wheat and other farm : products in our markets as well. Perhaps you should read up on the changes in the US farming industry, over the course of the last few years, before you spout off more of your well formed opinions. US farming subsidies have been drastically reduced, to induce more of a demand-driven farming. I never liked the agricultural socialism inherant in the US farming system, and so I do applaud the changes there. What specific product(s) are you arguing that Americans dump in "your market"? : Sam -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:32:06 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1101990632060001@elk89.dol.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> In article <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net>, SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > In article <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>, "Greg > Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > > >Apple could make a clean Intel computer with Firewire, > >USB, Rage 128, 100-base-T, a similar PCI setup & standard PC > >memory (no serial ports, parallel, keyboard, PS/2 etc). > > Yes, exactly! Basically a Mac, but with an x86 processor. Users buying new > Macs could choose slightly cheaper and less powerfull, or slightly faster > and more expensive. Except that an Apple-branded PC with the same setup as a Mac (except for the chip) wouldn't be any less expensive. Look at the price of the G3 chip and the PII chip. At best, they're a wash. The rest of the components (other than motherboard) are the same. There's probably little difference in motherboard price. Essentially, Apple would be offering a PC at the same price as the Macs, but without the advantage of being able to run Mac software. IF Apple decided they wanted to release Mac OS / Intel (which I've favored), they should do it as a software-only solution. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:28:06 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> In article <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > On 01/08/99, "Lawson English" wrote: > > > > > >>So let's see... we screw veteran OPENSTEP developers and brave Mac > >>developers > >>who have made the move the Yellow Box so as to reassure Mac > developers, > >>and we > >>do this in a way that is guaranteed to increase Mac developers' > mistrust > >of > >>Apple's ability/willingness to follow through on its commitments. > Yep, > >>makes > >>perfect sense. > > > >Make a distinction here: Apple makes moves to placate Microsoft, > Adobe, > >MacroMind and the other "top 100 Mac developers" while increasing the > >smaller developer's mistrust of Apple's ability/willingness to follow > >through on its commitments. > > Wouldn't the "top 100 Mac developers" include alot of those > independent small shops that you just claimed were YB positive? > > Apple keeps its word and ships the product in the form that it > promised (if not the timeframe) and Mac devs piss on them. > > Ain't that a bitch.. This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost universally ignored it. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:59:10 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1101991659100001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <MPG.1104254f42f719b2989845@news.itg.ti.com> In article <MPG.1104254f42f719b2989845@news.itg.ti.com>, jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) wrote: > In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says... > > > It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks. > > People used to complain that games took more than 4 megs.. And more than > 8 megs.. Get with the times. I doubt you really need 95 megs anyway. On the PC it requires 130, they reduced it to a minimum of 70 on the Mac (it won't even load if you have less than that), but many people experienced crashes with giving it anything much less than 90-100. > But even so, remember with Windows your swap file is set for you. Novel > concept for a Mac user, but it's all transparent to you. Yup. On Windows they didn't have to worry about it, other than complaining about very slow response and lots of disk swapping on systems with 64MB or less of RAM... -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:00:59 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1101991700590001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <pxpst2-1101991820430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> In article <pxpst2-1101991820430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: > In article <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net>, > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > > > > I don't know what the previous poster's real problem was, but it doesn't > > > _require_ 270MB RAM... I ran it quite nicely with a partition of about 95MB, > > > with all the spiff options turned on. > > > > That's only marginally better. > > > > It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks. > > Joe do not worry by the time th product actually ships computers will ship > with 128 MB standard. ;-) "The product" (Unreal) shipped 6 months ago for the Mac, and about 9 months ago for the PC, and was advertised prominently on Apple's web site... But I agree, it's a HORRIBLE resource hog (possibly even worse on the PC than the Mac). BTW, I have 128MB of RAM and Unreal ran ok (if slowly) without turning VM on, at least after getting the patches which fixed various bugs. -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
From: John Saccente <brennan@lcc.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:09:12 -0600 Organization: LCC Internet Message-ID: <369A8494.ADA91EA8@lcc.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77b76a$qft$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn79j0ir.r1p.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <77cobt$86k$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christian Neuss wrote: > SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote: > >:Apple can talk out its $ss that YB is here to stay. I suspect secretely > >:they have been working very hard to convert to Java. > > > >It hasn't been a secret. > > > >Objective-C being replaced by the Java langauge has been ongoing for a > >while. > > > >They want two good development platforms, Carbon, and Java, the latter > >branched into Sun libraries and Yellow libraries. > > >Yellow Box with Java is nearly the same as YB with O-C. > > I could live with that. I wouldn't be happy to lose categories and > forwarding, but I could live with that. Hey, we survived being forced > into Intel machines as hardware platforms, remember? > > If, however, they are stupid enough to plan on basing their Java > extension on Carbon - which I doubt - it would really be time to > worry. And dump Apple stock. Maybe look for a job as a carpenter. > > statically bound language, -> "Taligent desaster" > > I just refuse to believe that they do something as dumb as that. > "Medicine will cure death", and all that. fwiw, at about the 1:30 mark into his CAUSE98 (or whatever it's called) keynote <http://www.educause.edu/conference/c98/webcast98.html> Jobs comments on the necessity of run-time binding in object-oriented development, claims that NeXT did a "pretty good job" with this and suggests that we can expect to hear more in the coming year. Feel free to interpret this however you like :-/ John Saccente brennan@lcc.net
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:39:47 -0600 From: kcobb@austin.rr.com (Ken Cobb) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> Organization: Westlake Interactive, Inc. Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy In article <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the > kissers . . . sobbing at some of the comments, Although I'm not a big fan of Carmack, he does tell it like it is. No one should be crying about this, but working towards fixing the obvious problems he points out (which Apple is doing). > basically implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. Well, Apple is stressing the benchmark tests that show its machines in the best light possible. Can't blame them for that, misleading though it may be. It does, however, create unrealistic expectations for game performance. > From all of my tests and experiments, the new mac systems are > basically as fast as the latest pentium II systems for general > cpu and memory performance. This is plenty good, but it doesn't > make the intel processors look like slugs. That's been my experience, also. > The first thing that bit me was the static memory allocation for > the program. Modern operating systems just figure out how much > memory you need, but because the mac was originally designed for > systems without memory management, significant things have to be > laid out ahead of time. > > Porting a win32 game to the mac will probably involve more work > dealing with memory than any other aspect. Graphics, sound, and > networking have reasonable analogues, but you just can't rely > on being able to malloc() whatever you want on the mac. It's not THE biggest part of a port, but it is certainly one of the major things we have to deal with. I agree that the statically allocated memory partition is the #1 thing that needs to go. In Unreal, it was probably the main source of problems for users. > A third order problem is that a lot of the interfaces are fairly > clunky. I disagree somewhat here. I think Windows is the king of clunky when it comes to interfaces. > MacOS X nails all these problems, but thats still a ways away. I can't wait. -- Ken Cobb Westlake Interactive
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:45:25 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p48.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 15:45:09 GMT Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > In article <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>, "Greg > Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > > >Apple could make a clean Intel computer with Firewire, > >USB, Rage 128, 100-base-T, a similar PCI setup & standard PC > >memory (no serial ports, parallel, keyboard, PS/2 etc). > > Yes, exactly! Basically a Mac, but with an x86 processor. Users buying new > Macs could choose slightly cheaper and less powerfull, or slightly faster > and more expensive. > All our predictions and suggestions notwithstanding, Apple is almost certainly way ahead of us on this issue. They are almost certainly unhappy that the PowerPC chip hasn't outrun the Intel chips as much as was promised and with the new generation of Intel processors coming along they are almost certainly building prototype Macs with those (and other processors) deep within the bowels of Apple. Time to market on these could probably be very short. Builds of MacOSX Server for Intel are apparently being done (just not productized). Someone (I forget who) has suggested that Carbon could fairly easily be ported to Intel since most of the work was done in porting Quicktime. If true, this is probably already being done. Small point maybe, but Robert Morgan (on MacWeek and his own http://www.pelagius.com/AppleRecon/) is often right about stuff, though it is difficult to tell just how often because of his excessive self-promotion. He had this to say with regard to Steve's apparent "Motorola and Intel" gaffe during his keynote: "Of course Apple isn't going to ship boxes; or allow others to ship Intel based OS X Server boxes; because Apple has repeatedly denied any such thing. So we all might as well get that out of our heads. Right? Just like we were supposed to get "iMacs of Many Colors" out of our heads as well. And no, we're not intimating anything at all. Nothing whatsoever..... " I have come to believe that Apple will ship Intel boxes, not according to our agenda, but according to it's agenda, probably when MacOSX comes out and with MacOSX and probably Windows 2000 pre-installed. They will sell enough of these, even to Windows folks for style reasons if for no other, to prompt other Wintel vendors to ship hardware with MacOSX installed, and the whole shape of PC computing could be transformed. Apple will vigourously deny any such plan until it happens and even if rumours get out they will be considered too wild to be taken seriously, so it will come as a complete surprise to the industry. Michael Monner
From: Ryan Scott <scott@leorg.ucdavis.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOSX Server Mini-FAQ: Interest Query Date: 7 Jan 1999 00:53:21 GMT Organization: University of California, Davis Distribution: world Message-ID: <7710i1$i7n$1@mark.ucdavis.edu> References: <770m7c$lje$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: giddings@genetics.utah.edu In <770m7c$lje$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > > It seems that the recent announcements regarding MacOSX Server have created > more questions than they answered. Some examples are: > > 1. Will there be an intel version? > 2. What of Yellowbox for NT? > 3. When will it ship? > 4. How much will it cost for multiple MacOSX/S clients (or are only MacOS > 8.x clients supported)? > 5. Is Blue Box to be included (this is likely a yes from all evidence, but > good to have a definitive answer) > 6. Will there be a version that is less expensive without WebObjects (i.e. > a "workstation" version)? > 7. What hardware will it support? Will the iMac be supported? > 8. Will there be a .edu deal? > 9. How are developer relations to proceed with those who want to do > YellowBox development? Are we still expected to join Apple's "standard" > dev programs? > > And so on. Apple will most likely get around to answering these questions > eventually (we can hope). But based on some discussion on the macosx-talk > list, some of us would like to prod Apple with such questions in the small > hope that they might answer some of them sooner rather than later. > > So, at present I have taken up the charge of putting something together, > and submitting it to Apple (unless someone with more "clout" with Apple > wishes to submit it for improved results). What I would like is for people > to submit their ideas for good questions to ask, or simply submit a vote of > support for the idea. With enough support and well worded questions, there > is some chance Apple might answer a few of them. > > As the saying goes "you can't get what you don't ask for". > > Michael Giddings > > > This is a great idea. You seem to have presented some of the most frequently asked questions. Hopefully someone with some "clout" with Apple will present the questions. -- ________________________________________________ Ryan P. Scott Laser and Electro-Optics Research Group UC Davis - Department of Applied Science Tel: (530)754-4358 Fax: (530)752-1652 Email: scott@leorg.ucdavis.edu ________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:25:19 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <sg.od.in-1101991125210001@10.1.11.128> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <casper-0901991334400001@192.168.1.3> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <casper-0901991334400001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: > In article > <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net>, > 1050pi@netscape.net wrote: > > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2181941,00.html > > > >"Compaq will offer a "Networked Home in a Box," which includes two > >personal computers, color monitors and a color printer for under > >$2,500." > > > >Apple could do that, too, and probably cheaper if it were smart. > > > >As it is, Corel or Acer will endup making boatloads of money using > >Linux and something like KDE to create a super-cheap "Home Area > >Network in a Box." > > Because Apple's marketing department doesn't have a clue of how to sell > computers. All it would take for Apple to duplicate this feature that at risk of belabouring the point: a snippet from http://www.nobeige.com iMac From August 15 - December 31, Apple shipped 800,000 units in 4.5 months (that's 1 every 15 seconds) making the iMac the #1 selling computer model in America. Steve also talked about the December marketing data received from new iMac sales: 32% first time computer owners 13% Wintel converts 45% of iMac buyers are new to the Mac platform. 24% adding to other iMacs 31% replace old Macs 82% connected to the Internet > Compaq is advertising is a little bit of marketing glitz added on to their > existing products. -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:38:49 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <sg.od.in-1101991138500001@10.1.11.128> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <casper-0901991342450001@192.168.1.3> <stevehix-0901991856190001@192.168.1.10> <flat-1001990842450001@pm7-135.orf.infi.net> <slrn79icl1.208.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <slrn79icl1.208.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: > >The costs of purchasing a PC are hidden in the life-shortening > >aggravation, eyestrain, tendinitis, techie-training, worrying about why it > >wants me to type in all these arcane characters, why I'm playing games and > >while my friend is producing music videos on his Mac, researching why this > > Silly Mac User. That's why bright people got Ataris and Amigas > and quite possibly bought themselves a new car in lieu of the > overpriced Macintosh. Oy vey are you exaggerating. I could feed a family for ten years on what it costs the average and corporate PC consumers to support the PC technical support/repair industry AFTER their so-called 'less expensive' purchases. (as long as we're exaggerating) -=- on the more serious side of yuour question: prior to introducing Macintosh support (by adding me :) full-time in-house, my company managed to gain advances to where around 40% of their income was produced by the service side of the business. i.e. FIXING WinTel systems. this is no small chunk of change, as this allowed the company to grow to over 430 people, spread to 4 more locations, and set goals to grow to over 1000. Also, the profit margins on the service side are higher than the sales side. Forgot about that small fact, didn't you? Silly wintrolls. :) -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 11 Jan 1999 16:40:47 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll read the article. However, I don't get what everyone is bitching about. LOOK AT WHAT YOU GET!!!!!! Geez, folks!! UNLIMITED user license? BUNDLED WEB OBJECTS (more than $1,000 retail)?? APACHE??? A Windows NT Server 4.0 with ***10-user license*** costs that much!! I may be missing some issues, but you people need to realize that, for an ENTERPRISE APPLICATION (this ISN'T for the general user, guys!), the price/feature set for OS X Server is pretty damn good! Hell, the unlimited license option is worth it in itself. Know how much a 250-user license for NetWare 5.0 is? $12,495. Win NT? $9,000. Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for anyone bitching about the price. As far as I am concerned, OS X Server is a STEAL. -DC spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > Scott Anguish has posted a very eloquent statement on the high cost of Mac OS > X Server on the Stepwise site: > > http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html > > I hope someone at Apple is reading it. In case they're not, I would encourage > all of you who are as dismayed as I am about the OSX Server pricing to follow > Scott's advice to tell Apple (leadership@apple.com) and copy him > (sanguish@digifix.com). Venting on this site clearly isn't helping. > > Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, > reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user (I hope) > > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: I didn't call it (MacOS X Server for Intel) Date: 11 Jan 1999 16:49:35 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77da2v$963$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <778a8j$6l$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SCOTT.99Jan10214001@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote: : John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> writes: : I think the interesting thing, in retrospect, is the smooth way : Apple changed directions: : - first a roughly equal PPC/Intel strategy : - then a PPC stratety with one Intel release : - then no Intel release : They achieved a big change in strategy without any real shockwaves. : I know the pain is felt here, but I don't see it in the popular : press. The press is still talking about a successful new strategy, : etc. : Eh? That's a really weird read on things, almost as if the press was : even aware that there was a thing such as OpenStep before Apple pushed : it. Roll things back a bit, and tell me whether dropping the first : two items from the above transition would have made any more waves : than having all three items did? : I will grant that current management didn't have much choice, because : prior management started the ball rolling. But, to be honest, I've : never seen Intel as being that scary at all for the existing MacOS : installed base. What was scary was OpenStep, Intel was a complete : background thread, and probably got deep-sixed more because of it's : potential for confusion ("Why can't I run things in a bluebox on : Intel?") than because anyone was frightened of it. I'm not sure we're talking about the same things. My observation was that Apple's positions kind of roll with time. I guess my insinuation is that they might know that each position is a step along the way. Apple under Steve's leadership is a little like a sideshow barker who pulls back the curtain to show a glimse of the future. Each time he pulls back the curtain the scene is a little different, but not so much that the crowd really notices. You talk about what the press notices. I think they noticed the "write once, deliver twice" of the original Amelio plan in a big way. Back in early '97 the technical press widely discussed the dual deployment the YB would provide, but YB on NT isn't here. The latest word from Stepwise is: "The Yellow Box license for NT is still not entirely resolved. Apple is working internally to come up with the best solution, and that should be available by the time that Mac OS X Server ships." I don't know if Apple is really out to kill it, or if they are having honest difficulties. Just the same, if they killed it now would it have the same impact that killing it at the Carbon announcemnt would have had? As a big ship turns, the compass will continue to give you a heading ... but it doesn't tell you where you are going. John
From: "Alex Andersen" <alex_a@cool.dk> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <bWpm2.263$Gg.556@news.get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:51:34 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:47:03 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Speaking of speed in general... what is in general? A lot of PC users claim to have a screamingly fast computer - and why - because it runs Quake II at an insanely high framerate (graphics card!!!). OK, cool enough but what about everything else. At my school i use a Pentium 400MHz Siemens Nixdorf machine (128Mb RAM) for creative purposses and games (only in breaks of cause :-) ), and i must admit that it's a great releave when i get home to the G3 266MHz (96Mb RAM), because everything is stable, and a lot faster (especially Premiere end Illustrator). When it comes to games the G3 runs Quake I just as well as the PC's (i can't try Q II because it isn't make for the regular MacOS), and i might aswell play it on the Mac!. Alex Andersen alex_a@cool.dk
From: clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C Lund) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 11 Jan 1999 17:25:44 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Message-ID: <clund-1101991830590001@ppp064.uio.no> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> In article <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: (bzzzZZZZTTTT) And wtf is this doing on alt.games.myth? In fact, I'd say this post belongs only on the advocacy groups (and I've trimmed the groups thereafter). As to what Carmack says... why should this make anybody cry? Least of all the "Apple kissups"? The only inflammatory thing here is your own drivel. -- C Lund http://www.notam.uio.no/~clund/
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:09:04 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p73.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369A3E3F.3E3708E0@tone.ca> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 18:08:52 GMT Your right, it's a steal for a server and development system. Problem is there are a bunch of NextStep/OpenStep/Rhapsody developers, some of whom have products going way back, who haven't been able to sell their products for years and who are afraid of not being able to sell them now because there is no "client" version of the OS, without the server & development goodies, at a consumer price. This is made worse by the fact that, while a build of MacOSX Server Intel exists, it will not be released as a commercial product. Michael Monner DC wrote: > I'll read the article. However, I don't get what everyone is bitching > about. LOOK AT WHAT YOU GET!!!!!! Geez, folks!! UNLIMITED user license? > BUNDLED WEB OBJECTS (more than $1,000 retail)?? APACHE??? A Windows NT > Server 4.0 with ***10-user license*** costs that much!! I may be missing > some issues, but you people need to realize that, for an ENTERPRISE > APPLICATION (this ISN'T for the general user, guys!), the price/feature > set for OS X Server is pretty damn good! Hell, the unlimited license > option is worth it in itself. Know how much a 250-user license for > NetWare 5.0 is? $12,495. Win NT? $9,000. > Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for anyone bitching about the price. As > far as I am concerned, OS X Server is a STEAL. > -DC > > spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > > > Scott Anguish has posted a very eloquent statement on the high cost of Mac OS > > X Server on the Stepwise site: > > > > http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html > > > > I hope someone at Apple is reading it. In case they're not, I would encourage > > all of you who are as dismayed as I am about the OSX Server pricing to follow > > Scott's advice to tell Apple (leadership@apple.com) and copy him > > (sanguish@digifix.com). Venting on this site clearly isn't helping. > > > > Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, > > reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user (I hope) > > > > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- > > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <369A3E3F.3E3708E0@tone.ca> Message-ID: <xvrm2.3745$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:35:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:35:09 PDT Organization: @Home Network I was interested in mosxs for intel because I am an OPENSTEP user. I was a long time unix user who got into NeXT because I always admired the look of the gui. Now that I've actually been running OPENSTEP on my home box for the last six months, I truly love the interface, it is simply brilliant, and certainly makes Xwindows look shoddy and mediocre in comparison. In contrast, NeXT os'es are terrible unices compared to any modern BSD or SVR4 based system. They are proprietary as hell and extremely difficult to port modern unix applications to. I use FreeBSD and Solaris for real work, and boot to OPENSTEP out of sheer love for the interface. MOSXS is not going to be the NeXT we all know and love, and while it might be a better unix than any NeXT os ever was, Apple seems determined to make sure that the fewest possible people ever get a chance to find out how good it is or isn't. So I will keep booting OPENSTEP for my NeXT fix, and using real unices for work. I realize that Apple didn't develop mosxs for operating system enthusiasts like myself, but I'm still disappointed that I won't get a chance to see what they did with the NeXT technology. With any luck Jobs will suck the life out of Apple and within five years we'll all be able to get fire sale prices on OSX and mac hardware, until then I will stick with intel, which offers excellent performance for the price, and runs any choice of a dozen excellent x86 unices. In <369A3E3F.3E3708E0@tone.ca> Michael wrote: > Your right, it's a steal for a server and development system. > > Problem is there are a bunch of NextStep/OpenStep/Rhapsody developers, some of > whom have products going way back, who haven't been able to sell their products > for years and who are afraid of not being able to sell them now because there is > no "client" version of the OS, without the server & development goodies, at a > consumer price. > > This is made worse by the fact that, while a build of MacOSX Server Intel exists, > it will not be released as a commercial product.-
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> In-reply-to: Michael's message of Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:45:25 -0500 Date: 11 Jan 99 11:10:07 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:11:20 PDT In article <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca>, Michael <michael@tone.ca> writes: All our predictions and suggestions notwithstanding, Apple is almost certainly way ahead of us on this issue. They are almost certainly unhappy that the PowerPC chip hasn't outrun the Intel chips as much as was promised and with the new generation of Intel processors coming along they are almost certainly building prototype Macs with those (and other processors) deep within the bowels of Apple. Time to market on these could probably be very short. Builds of MacOSX Server for Intel are apparently being done (just not productized). Aaaahaaaaa. MacOS X/Merced comes to mind, and might indeed be a good idea. The only problem I have with such a notion is that all the reasons for not shipping MacOS X Server/Intel apply equally well to MacOS X of any stripe running on Merced. Furthermore, with a couple years of MacOS X Server/Intel under their belt, Apple would be in a position to rollout more-or-less immediately on Merced, by first targetting the x86 emulation and converting over to the EPIC side of things as time permits. [All indications are that Merced's EPIC won't be much if any faster than Merced's x86 - in contrast to McKinley, where EPIC is supposed to be much faster.] Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: nomail@anyaccount.edu (Ashish Mishra) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:43:32 -0500 Organization: U of W Message-ID: <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> Cache-Post-Path: watserv5.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca >This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box >says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost >universally ignored it. It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple platforms? I think Apple has come to the same realization. Offering three APIs, Carbon, Yellow-Box, and Java just doesn't make much sense economically or strategically. ash (anti-spamming in effect) a s h at s i n e w a r e dot c o m
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:29:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:29:23 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com>, kcobb@austin.rr.com (Ken Cobb) wrote: > In article <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net>, > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > basically implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks > comments. > Well, Apple is stressing the benchmark tests that show its machines in the > best light possible. ... I've created some homemade benchmarks, and those with a small memory footprint roughly agree with Bytemarks. ... I agree that the statically allocated memory > partition is the #1 thing that needs to go. In Unreal, it was probably > the main source of problems for users. That's my experience also -- I had to turn on virtual memory to get through some parts of the game. Very late in the game, when you've shut down the Skaarj ship's power, I had to up my partition size to 270 megabytes to avoid crashing. > > A third order problem is that a lot of the interfaces are fairly > > clunky. > I disagree somewhat here. I think Windows is the king of clunky when it > comes to interfaces. Any details? > > MacOS X nails all these problems, but thats still a ways away. > I can't wait. MacOS X Server will be out in a month, but it apparently won't have 3D-card support just yet. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 11 Jan 1999 19:55:22 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net>, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >> through some parts of the game. Very late in the game, when you've shut >> down the Skaarj ship's power, I had to up my partition size to 270 >> megabytes to avoid crashing. > >Huh???? A game that requires 270 MB of RAM? > >No thanks. I don't know what the previous poster's real problem was, but it doesn't _require_ 270MB RAM... I ran it quite nicely with a partition of about 95MB, with all the spiff options turned on. PowerMac8600/300, 96MB real RAM, 3dfx card Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:18:36 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?= Message-ID: <1dlh3ne.s68jlgedb4ccN@mp-212-84.daxnet.no> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> <1dlfdns.iqrkd2146bo08N@mp-212-174.daxnet.no> <36995761.6D4FEC29@tone.ca> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > > > > Yeah, but they aren`t selling it as a deployment package, which is the > > problem. > > They aren`t exactly promoting the parts that let you build > > (traditional) complex applications in an elegant way either. > > Now I'm really confused. The tools are all there but they aren't really > because they aren't being promoted? You haven`t got a license to move applications around without WO being installed on all machines that want to use the app. And they have all the tools, but won`t be trying to sell them to people, apparently. Some people look at these things when they want to build an important app that will have to last a few years. Especially when the tools come from Apple. It`s not exactly the first time something like this has happened. > It's okay, I'll be getting it come February and hopefully come to > understand all the nuances in the fullness of time. > > Michael Monner > Hopefully! Good luck. :-/ They might of course figure out the rest of the bits and pieces and actually get a damn deployment license in order, but that is still up in the air over Cupertino. -- Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 11 Jan 1999 15:17:01 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:17:14 GMT In article <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>, nomail@anyaccount.edu (Ashish Mishra) wrote: > Honestly though, > speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow > Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple > platforms? But you can't. If you do pure Java, then you lose Yellow Box, which is still superior to the Java APIs in design and maturity. If you do Yellow Box in Java instead of Objective-C, you lose some of the multiple platforms (basically restricted to Macs and Windows). If you do anything in Java, you lose some of the powerful Objective-C idioms like forwarding and categories. No matter what, you still lose something by using Java. (Of course, there are gains too, so it's a tradeoff. But the contention was that you can do "all the same" in Java.)
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The Long, Slow Death of OpenStep Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:27:23 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn79knl9.urj.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <77c7dv$td7$1@your.mother.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:27:23 GMT On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:52:17 -0800, Todd Heberlein <todd@dev.null> wrote: :I can't help feeling that I am observing the long, slow death of :OpenStep. I'm somewhat further from the issue but it doesn't seem that way to me. Apple traded off an early deployment of Rhapsody to the few for a later deployment of OSX (not Server) to the many. Under the Rhapsody plan a mass market who runs a Yellow capable computer wasn't going to be big for quite a while. Warm butts count. And if Apple wanted YB to die, it wouldn't be working on YB in Java--quite the opposite, it would grow old as an Objective-C curiosity. There was no way to get YB really working on traditional MacOS without horrible compromise. There's no denying though that selling hardware is their overwhelming #1 priority, hence no MacOS clones or OSX on non-Apple hw. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:42:54 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn79koid.urj.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:42:54 GMT On 11 Jan 1999 05:02:16 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : All I know for sure about the Intel product is what I was told :by Ernie at the BOF. : : "There are no plans at this time to productize the Intel :port." : : Privately I've been told where the blame for this lays. I'm :not sure that I believe it, but its interesting fodder. Does the person go by the code name 'S****' or 'B***'. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:13:21 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p173.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369A696F.BB12AD23@tone.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 21:13:10 GMT Scott Hess wrote: > <snip> > Aaaahaaaaa. MacOS X/Merced comes to mind, and might indeed be a good > idea. > > The only problem I have with such a notion is that all the reasons for > not shipping MacOS X Server/Intel apply equally well to MacOS X of any > stripe running on Merced. I'm not sure anyone outside Apple knows what these reasons are, we're just guessing. My best guess is that MacOSX/Server is an interim stage between MacOS/OpenStep and MacOSX (particularly as regards the UI). They needed to release it to run WebObjects on Apple hardware and give the appearance of keeping some promises. On the other hand they would want to limit its exposure, therefore they aren't releasing it for Intel nor in a consumer priced form for Macs. > Furthermore, with a couple years of MacOS X > Server/Intel under their belt, Apple would be in a position to rollout > more-or-less immediately on Merced, by first targetting the x86 > emulation and converting over to the EPIC side of things as time > permits. And if it doesn't take off it provides a few extra bucks for Rhapsody developers. If it does take off, they have this interim OS to kill when MacOSX comes out. Think of the uproar then. If I was Apple I'd keep it simple -- not officially release OSX Server as a client product, but let copies slip out in enough ways to keep the YB developers off the streets. It's at least legal to sell apps for OSX Server now. Hell if I was Apple I'd even let the developers put a working "demo" copy of OSX Sever (without the developer & server stuff) for Mac and Intel on the demo CD they're putting together. (Dang Alzheimers kicking in again, got to go take my pills.) Michael Monner
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:42:23 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> DC <dhba701@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> wrote: > I'll read the article. However, I don't get what everyone is bitching > about. LOOK AT WHAT YOU GET!!!!!! Geez, folks!! UNLIMITED user license? > BUNDLED WEB OBJECTS (more than $1,000 retail)?? APACHE??? A Windows NT > Server 4.0 with ***10-user license*** costs that much!! As I've written before, the price is fine for those who need a server. For those who don't need WebObjects, Apache, Appleshare, etc, the price is ludicrous. > I may be missing > some issues, but you people need to realize that, for an ENTERPRISE > APPLICATION (this ISN'T for the general user, guys!), WRONG. This potentially could very much be for end-users. Maybe not your average Joe iMac buyer, but certainly for the kind of people who use NT workstation, OS X Server would be an excellent platform. Indeed, some of us (eg me) have been using OS X Server's predecessor (NeXTSTEP) in exactly this way for the better part of a decade, now. > the price/feature > set for OS X Server is pretty damn good! Hell, the unlimited license > option is worth it in itself. Know how much a 250-user license for > NetWare 5.0 is? $12,495. Win NT? $9,000. > Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for anyone bitching about the price. As > far as I am concerned, OS X Server is a STEAL. Again, for use as a server, you're right. But not everybody is wanting to use this puppy as a server. And as far as the developers go, it does them little good for Apple to sell a couple of dozen, or even hundred, of OS X Server copies as pure servers. People aren't going to run shrink-wrap apps off of servers, so their market would be crippled. If there were a "workstation" version of OSX Server, on the other hand, without WebObjects etc, at a price competitive with WNT workstation, their market would be substantially larger. I, for one, would be in the market for pretty much every single YB app available. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:01:50 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Message-ID: <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> Loren Petrich (petrich@netcom.com) wrote: : In article <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com>, : kcobb@austin.rr.com (Ken Cobb) wrote: : > > A third order problem is that a lot of the interfaces are fairly : > > clunky. : > I disagree somewhat here. I think Windows is the king of clunky when it : > comes to interfaces. I have partially to agree with Mr. Carmack here; some of Apple's API's are a nightmare to use. Of the ones I've wasted time on, Open Transport has got to be the worst, although the API for the defunct OpenDoc was probably the biggest offender (how many pages was the OpenDoc Programmer's Guide??) -tomlinson (I assume that Carmack meant, by "interfaces", programmer's interfaces and not user interfaces.) -- Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University ------------------------------------------------ "Holly? look down there. Would you really feel any pity if one of those _dots_ stopped moving forever? If I said you could have twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stops, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare?"
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:41:07 -0600 Organization: Texas Instruments Message-ID: <MPG.11041ddc8db47bd5989844@news.itg.ti.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:41:11 GMT In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says... > In article <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, > petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote: > > That's my experience also -- I had to turn on virtual memory to get > > through some parts of the game. Very late in the game, when you've shut > > down the Skaarj ship's power, I had to up my partition size to 270 > > megabytes to avoid crashing. > > Huh???? A game that requires 270 MB of RAM? > > No thanks. Gee, good thing you've made such an informed choice about this..
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:12:51 -0600 Organization: Texas Instruments Message-ID: <MPG.1104254f42f719b2989845@news.itg.ti.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 21:12:54 GMT In article Joe Ragosta, joe.ragosta@dol.net says... > In article <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net > (Josh Brandt) wrote: > > > In article <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net>, > > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > > >> through some parts of the game. Very late in the game, when you've shut > > >> down the Skaarj ship's power, I had to up my partition size to 270 > > >> megabytes to avoid crashing. > > > > > >Huh???? A game that requires 270 MB of RAM? > > > > > >No thanks. > > > > I don't know what the previous poster's real problem was, but it doesn't > > _require_ 270MB RAM... I ran it quite nicely with a partition of about 95MB, > > with all the spiff options turned on. > > That's only marginally better. > > It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks. People used to complain that games took more than 4 megs.. And more than 8 megs.. Get with the times. I doubt you really need 95 megs anyway. But even so, remember with Windows your swap file is set for you. Novel concept for a Mac user, but it's all transparent to you.
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:39:11 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:39:12 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> , macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the > kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically > implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. > > Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that > Apple is improving, and this is very important. > > Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the > only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) > > > John Carmack > Id Software | Jan 10 1999, 16:52:49 (PT) | johnc@idsoftware.com > > Post your comments on this plan at the bottom of the page, or view the 22 > already available... > > > John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. You would do very well to quit kissing up to his penis. The only pathological lair around is you Steve, or whatever name you want ot use today. You have been exposed before, only to climb from under the desk when Apple bashing (Not always unjustified) is the soup of the day. In other words GET LOST!! -- You will know fear. Then you will know pain. Then you will come back to the MacOS. soup
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@webengine-db.nospam.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:47:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:44:37 EDT Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Then you have not played Half-Life. This IS NOT meant as a bash, simply that Half-Life takes Unreal and moves it to the back of the pile. Unreal might have had "flashy" graphics, but they did nothing for the game play. Where as Half-Life, EVERYTHING worked to improve the game play and the feel of being there. Bill F. Mike Roca, Jr. <roca@ultranet.com> wrote in message news:369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com... >Unreal's graphics are better than almost any game currently on the >market. It's one of the most addictive games I've played in a long >time. It's not "just a game", it's one of the best single player games >that I've played in a long time. > >I've ran it flawlessly on a G3 with 64MB using Virtual Memory. > >-Mike
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> Message-ID: <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:48:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:48:46 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- > John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. You would do very well > to quit kissing up to his penis. The only pathological lair around is you > Steve, or whatever name you want ot use today. You have been exposed before, > only to climb from under the desk when Apple bashing (Not always > unjustified) is the soup of the day. In other words GET LOST!! Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling.
From: "Mike Roca, Jr." <roca@ultranet.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:34:07 -0500 Organization: - Sender: roca@dhcp157.avs.com Message-ID: <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Ragosta wrote: > > That's only marginally better. > > It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks. Unreal's graphics are better than almost any game currently on the market. It's one of the most addictive games I've played in a long time. It's not "just a game", it's one of the best single player games that I've played in a long time. I've ran it flawlessly on a G3 with 64MB using Virtual Memory. -Mike
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:34:26 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> In article <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) wrote: > In article <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net>, > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > >> through some parts of the game. Very late in the game, when you've shut > >> down the Skaarj ship's power, I had to up my partition size to 270 > >> megabytes to avoid crashing. > > > >Huh???? A game that requires 270 MB of RAM? > > > >No thanks. > > I don't know what the previous poster's real problem was, but it doesn't > _require_ 270MB RAM... I ran it quite nicely with a partition of about 95MB, > with all the spiff options turned on. That's only marginally better. It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:11:05 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> In article <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com>, "Jason Sims" <SPAMjason@SUCKSmacvertigo.com> wrote: > >Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the > >kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically > >implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. > > > What's with the attitude, man? I don't mean to get picky but you really > shouldn't use the words like "pathological" when it's obvious your grasp of > the English language is pretty weak. Really? Why dont you inform me ...... patholgy: something abnormal: the anantomic and physiologicdeviations from the normal that constitute disease or phyphysiologic deviations from the normal that concstitue disease or characterize a particluliar disease b: eviation from proprierty or from an assumed normal stat of something non living or non material Seems like their constantly harping that a imac is faster than a p2 400 is pathological to me... > Bytemarks are only one type of benchmark testing, and quite frankly the > whole benchmarking thing is a pretty flaky scene - there is always > controversy over what tests do/do not reflect real-world performance, etc. > etc. Everyone seems to take a different side on the issue and I have yet to > see a definitive resolution to these arguments. This is toTal bullashit Some FACTS: before Apple found out how much byte screwed up the results g3 results in Apple's favor, the only other benchmark apple used was photoshop, and they used it, AND it said a g3 266 was only a piddly %30 faster than a p2 266 > > >Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that > >Apple is improving, and this is very important. > > > Yes, Apple is improving, and has been for a long time. They've had a lot of > hurdles to jump over and are really not doing that badly overall, > considering the difficulties they've faced BESIDES figuring out a way to > replace an aging OS without alienating what's left of their userbase. > > >Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the > >only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) > > > Although the P2 450 would be a lot less expensive. It's a give & take > situation - you get a cheaper computer, you get an unintuitive operating > system with a cruddy interface, yet a more powerful (if unreliable and an > overly complicated mess of hacks) kernel. You buy a Mac, everything is > easier to set up and customize, you're saving time right from the start - > until you have to deal with programs crashing or being unresponsive because > the system's memory management stinks and the machine cannot properly deal > with multiple simultaneous tasks. Mac OS X should be the end of this > argument. Apple can add the powerful features under the hood of their > otherwise-superior operating system, but we all know Microsoft can never > make their OS easy to use because it is a bunch of hacks designed to hold > together all kinds of different computers that were stupidly designed with > no standards to begin with. > > Jason Sims > Editor-in-Chief > Vertigo - http://www.macvertigo.com
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:34:55 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77dudg$ed7@shelob.afs.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > I, for one, would be in the market for pretty much > every single YB app available. Oh, so *you're* the guy. 8^) Greg
From: smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 11 Jan 1999 15:34:24 -0700 Organization: Brigham Young University Message-ID: <ygcemp1a173.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> The difficulty with mosxs is what happens to it in a year. With Apple employees taking the trouble to spread the idea that mosx will be very different from mosxs, one has to worry that whatever technology is present in mosxs may be gone in a year. Will apps made for mosxs have any hope of running on mosx? I have that sinking feeling from all that has happened in the last week that the answer may be no. -- Bill Smith, BYU mathematics dept. ph. 378-2061, fax 378-3703 email: smithwNOSPAM@NOSPAM.math.byu.edu Remove NOSPAM for legitimate mail
From: info@comicdb.com (Comic Book Database) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:40:54 -0800 Organization: Comic Book Database Message-ID: <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> > > Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented > coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. > However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards > Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. Why is the worst? Justify that statement. I've used Windows and MacOS, I would really like to hear your take on it. It's really easy to just say something sucks. Prove it or get lost. Lewis
From: libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:38:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:38:39 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Pardon me, what's 'EPIC'? --adam -- Canada? That godforsaken place where they can't make up their mind on the proper langage, and where someone on skates is a potential murder victim and they call that a sport? /cs-gg
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> Message-ID: <2Hym2.3815$xq4.1029@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:45:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:45:18 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> adam baker wrote: > Pardon me, what's 'EPIC'?- IIRC the forthcoming 64 bit intel cpu is really a hybrid of RISC and CISC design. Feel free to correct me if that is incorrect.
Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <1dlf01v.1bm9m151qvepeiN@[10.0.0.3]> <EO0m2.17763$kR5.23869@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> In-Reply-To: <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> From: distgruntled-with-steve-one-last-time <do_not_spam@me.net> Message-ID: <tldm2.224$lb4.1393@news14.ispnews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:28:41 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 02:28:41 GMT On 01/10/99, Michael wrote: ... >It would have been nice for Greg to have a few months as the only layout >program in the new MacOSX consumer market, so he could grab a solid >peice of it before the carbonized Pagemakers and Quarks came across, but >it looks like he may not get this opportunity. ... Of course not. A lot of the bickering on this list dances around the importance of Apple's large software supporters. They will not do anything without the Pagemakers and Quarks on board. Jobs has been confounding in his mercurial attitude towards quality and variety. The people on this list are not the only folks that know how Greg's apps and Scott's code (etc) are better. If the "ex-NeXTers" are having some difficulty making a transition, imagine how sluggish the large houses are to change. I don't have data at my fingertips to back this up, but I developed the impression that _before_ NeXT failed as a hardware vendor, _before_ they gave up on .edu and targeted the Enterprise, their courted WordPerfect/Lotus/FrameMaker support faded. Yes, there's a hand-in-glove aspect to OS/app development, as has been discussed here, but Apple is not a big (important, but not big) company that can open the fist clenched by its major software supporters (no matter how much its "brilliant" employees, or occasionally Jobs, might want to). It would be nice if the company would _allow_ variance ("please let me get rid of that white bar across the top of the screen") and niche technology excellence, but even that's not tolerated in Apple's tough neighborhood. And who's around to convince the Page/Quarks to get on board, only the upstart competition. Apple may target me with their ads, but I am not their customer (or I would ba always right).
From: coceem04.no@spam.here.bellsouth.net (Luke Malish) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Mail-Copies-To: always Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <coceem04.no-1101992151000001@host-209-214-171-1.sdf.bellsouth.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:51:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:51:01 EDT In article <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net>, m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen) wrote: >I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games >and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. > >I'd rather see more useful software. Wow. Well looks like your pretty screwed. Even Apple cares about games now, didn't you hear? -Luke Malish Remove "NOSPAM" to send me e-mail
From: libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <libra-1101992155250001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <2Hym2.3815$xq4.1029@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:54:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:54:00 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada > In <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> adam baker wrote: > > Pardon me, what's 'EPIC'?- > > IIRC the forthcoming 64 bit intel cpu is really a hybrid of RISC and CISC > design. Feel free to correct me if that is incorrect. Sounds interesting--a hybrid in what way? For what purpose (backward compatibility?) Thanks, adam -- Canada? That godforsaken place where they can't make up their mind on the proper langage, and where someone on skates is a potential murder victim and they call that a sport? /cs-gg
Message-ID: <369ABA65.28CEA52C@home.com> From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:58:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:58:56 PDT Michael Lankton wrote: > In <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- > > The only question is, does it get the job done. The MacOS does and will do > > so even better, when the MacOSX hits the streets. Right now MacOS X Server > > can stand up to any OS currently on the market.- > > 1. Until mosxs proves that it is as stable and robust as any *BSD or SVR4 > based unix I would be afraid to pitch it to management as my choice to trust > our corporations mission-critical operations to. No need to be afraid, MOSXS is based on Openstep, which excelled in mission-critical apps. I would think that this is only true for apps programmed with yellow box, not carbon. > > > 2. Mosxs has no smp. How many ppc's does it take to replace one > multi-processor sparc or sgi box? Sheesh, even windows nt has smp. You've got that right! Lack of SMP support is pretty lame in 1999. But then again, MacOS users only get what Apple gives them, and Apple is only big enough (or only wants to be big enough) to support 3 product lines, each with a single processor: powerbook, iMac, and G3 pro. > >Are we talking operating systems here or hardware? MacOS 8.5 vs. Win98, no > >contest. Mac wins hands down. Mac hardware vs. intel boxes, Mac wins again, > >hands down. > > Why are you telling me this? I'm not a windows user, with the exception of a > 2 gig partition I have strictly for gaming. Macos, windows, your face, your > ass, what's the difference? Tell me how macos is superior to unix, then > I'll argue with you. It has a nice and consistant UI. It also has mainstream applications, like Office and Photoshop. Doesn't have much else though. In my opinion, the best combination of features (decent UI, modern OS features (PM, PM, SMP, stability), great hardware support, many applications) is found on NT 4. Something will have to "give" when NT is dumbed down to replace win98 and support all that funky stuff that requires direct hardware access and all that. I'd run BeOS but the app support isn't there. ari
From: Mitch Crane <us@them.org> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:59:42 -0500 Organization: multicellular tube with four appendages and a fleshy outer layer Message-ID: <110119992159423743%us@them.org> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit l,Lj*Jn[;{FX`G!<(E9.'-Z!)KPZF@UfK,)jjy4-#TC/G$4UIA[a8GC^w>,eV5VvDvVp im!u5$[Gk[CQVgtt-lElT User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.0.2 In article <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net>, Mike Cohen <m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net> wrote: > I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games > and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. > > I'd rather see more useful software. No games, no Mac. Then you'd have to use a Wintel machine and you'd really be tired of games. -- ybbxvatyvxrnobeantnvayvivatyvxrnurergvpyvfgravatgbneguheyrrerpbeqfznxv atnyylbhesevraqfsrryfbthvyglnobhggurveplavpvfznaqgurerfgbsgurvetrareng vbaabgriragurtbireazragnertbaanfgbclbhabjohgnerlbhernqlgborurnegoebxra
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <2Hym2.3815$xq4.1029@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <libra-1101992155250001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> Message-ID: <7Xym2.3817$xq4.1056@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:02:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:02:27 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <libra-1101992155250001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> adam baker wrote: > > In <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> adam baker wrote: > > > Pardon me, what's 'EPIC'?- > > > > IIRC the forthcoming 64 bit intel cpu is really a hybrid of RISC and CISC > > design. Feel free to correct me if that is incorrect. > > Sounds interesting--a hybrid in what way? For what purpose (backward > compatibility?)- No, as far as I know intel has no plans to include backwards compatability for x86 in their 64 bit cpus. I haven't payed much attention to ia64 specs and epic because it still seems like it's a long ways off, although I'm sure there are online articles that explore what is known about the future cpu. Perhaps www.tomshardware.com addresses what is known about ia64 to date.
From: randomj@ozemail.com.au (Craig McFarlane) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:08:12 +1100 Organization: Delaney & Morgan Computing Message-ID: <randomj-1201991408120001@slmel74p15.ozemail.com.au> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77e43j$6vv$1@decius.ultra.net> In article <77e43j$6vv$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) wrote: > MacOS 8.5 is far superior to, say, Atari TOS. Or to System 5. Or to System > 6.0.x, where x is 1-8. Or System 7.0. Or System 7.6.1, for god's sake, which > stunk on ice. Or to ProDOS. Or to MVS. Or to CP/CMS. Or to RT-11. (Sorry, > PDP-11 fans, but I thought it was stinky.) Or to OS 9, on the TRS-80. Josh, I'd agree with all of the above - EXCEPT for OS/9. Now that was far superior to MacOS then and now architecture-wise and performance-wise. Further,it did it in the early 80s when AppleDOS and MS-DOS ruled the earth. Now if only some bright sparks had latched onto a decent RTOS as the basis for any PC OS way back then. IBM choosing MS-DOS set computing back by about 15 years. OS/9 might not have had any GUIs or WIMPs, but the underlying OS was excellent for its day (sakes - it pre-emptive multi-tasked, was multi-user, and was real-time - and all on a 8-bit machine!), and you can always build that comfy stuff on top of it. OS/9 has probably suffered in the years since through being a marginalised thing, but it still lives. RTOS companies typically don't have gazillions to spend on product development that M$ and even Apple have. cya Craig -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Craig McFarlane randomj@ozemail.com.au Delaney & Morgan Computing Fax: +61 3 9878-3910 ACN 058 140 702 PO Box 84 Forest Hill Vic 3131 AUSTRALIA "My opinions had better be those of the management, or they're FIRED!" ========================================================================
From: libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:03:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:03:03 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada > > Bytemarks are only one type of benchmark testing, and quite frankly the > > whole benchmarking thing is a pretty flaky scene - there is always > > controversy over what tests do/do not reflect real-world performance, etc. > > etc. Everyone seems to take a different side on the issue and I have yet to > > see a definitive resolution to these arguments. > > This is toTal bullashit No it's not; there's no way to test real-world performance because everyone does everything differently, and has a different setup and working style and speed, and so forth. Benchmarks or 'real-world tests' are useless in terms of a usability. Raw computing power can be measured in microprocessors using SPECint and SPECfp, but there's really no point in comparing much else. I also have yet to see a definitive resolution to the benchmark argument. > Some FACTS: > before Apple found out how much byte screwed up the results g3 results in > Apple's favor, the only other benchmark apple used was photoshop, and they > used it, AND it said a g3 266 was only a piddly %30 faster than a p2 266 1) Good for them. 2) 30% is hardly piddly. If something used to take 100 minutes, it now takes 70 minutes, maybe leaving you with less time for coffee or lunch ;-) > > >Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that > > >Apple is improving, and this is very important. > > Yes, Apple is improving, and has been for a long time. They've had a lot of > > hurdles to jump over and are really not doing that badly overall, > > considering the difficulties they've faced BESIDES figuring out a way to > > replace an aging OS without alienating what's left of their userbase. Apple was always fine. There's never been impending death for that company. They are sitting on massive talent and mounds of cash. They've been involved in tons of projects that went different directions: Taligent, Versit, Newton, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, Star Trek, etc. gaining a lot of useful experience at least. The major players in the PC industry are all doing the same thing. Apple has been singled out because of its incredible rise to the top and subsequent reduction in market share and profits. Apple hasn't always bowed to the wishes of the masses, or even of the not-masses (game developers) and despite the logic of those decisions to many individuals, the company hasn't 'gotten worse' and had a need to 'improve'. --adam -- Canada? That godforsaken place where they can't make up their mind on the proper langage, and where someone on skates is a potential murder victim and they call that a sport? /cs-gg
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <petrich-1101991916040001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:12:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:12:38 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > Half-Life has people that talk to you, instead of Unreal's text messages all > over the place. It's much more interesting when the people walk and talk. However, writing has the nice feature of being persistent. And Bungie's Marathon series does terminal messages *really* well -- Unreal's look so feeble by comparison. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <petrich-1101991919590001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <kcobb-1101991956550001@cs40-208.austin.rr.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:16:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:16:34 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <kcobb-1101991956550001@cs40-208.austin.rr.com>, kcobb@austin.rr.com (Ken Cobb) wrote: > Oh, I thought he was talking about user interfaces. I would tend to agree > with him, then, if he was talking about programming API's. The Mac is > rather aged and inconsistent in that area. On the other hand, I think > Microsoft's COM objects are some of the most hideous things ever devised. I can agree that the MacOS's event model is not all that great -- having to do event dispatching by hand instead of (say) attaching callbacks to user-interface widgets like windows and buttons (E-Z to do with inheritance). But I've never had any experience with COM -- what's it like? -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: stevewhite@spammers.are.scum.com (Steve White) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <stevewhite-1101992304190001@d156-79.ce.mediaone.net> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:04:19 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:00:46 CDT Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region In article <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box > says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost > universally ignored it. I think it was the product of [ effort required to learn it ] x [ potential market for it ] At least at the time Apple was pushing it, well before the iMac, the market share and public bashing no doubt convinced a number of developers that they'd be better off learning Java than yellow box. steve Reply to: stevewhite at ce dot mediaone dot net
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 11 Jan 1999 23:32:08 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77e1lo$2j5$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net>, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >That's only marginally better. > >It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks. Well, I happened to have this digital audio workstation kicking around, and 3dfx cards are cheap. 8) Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <tbrown-1201990004240001@da227.ecr.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com> <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> <iVum2.8122$XY6.169376@news.san.rr.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:03:38 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:05:09 CDT In article <iVum2.8122$XY6.169376@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: >In article <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> , tbrown@netset.com (Ted >Brown) wrote: > >> Where's the serial port on a G3 Pro? All those musicians are really happy >> right now. Waiting for a USB-MIDI (which ain't here yet and I'm puzzled >> by the lack of mention of Yamaha's mLan). If I don't buy a modem in the >> box, how do I connect to the internet (no cable modems here)? Where do I >> get the modem? I think dongles and all other devices work on the USB-ADB >> box (~$40), but not all serial devices work on a USB-Serial. So, why an >> ADB port and not a serial port? I can understand this a bit, as the >> USB-ADB devices prob. weren't done soon enough to allow Apple to risk not >> having ADB. Maybe the USB-Serial work seemed to be farther along? And >> there's always a PCI Serial card, but that won't bode well with customers >> who already think the Pro has too few PCI slots. What'd be the cost of >> adding a serial port(s)? > >The future is in industry standards; Firewire,USB,etc. Of course at a added >cost, you can hook up your present devices. I agree with the bit on the future. I'll get back to this later. The future is not today. Tell this someone who needs MIDI today. At the cost of a serial port they are left out for now. The machine is worthless today. Modem support is arriving. There's the Best Data USB modem and it seems you can order the Mac modem as a 'service part' (but possibly at inflated prices). And a PCI modem manufacturer just chimed in as well today. There are USB ISDN routers (with software???) and ISDN 10BT routers. That's *if* I get ISDN support (just came into my area, and I don't know if any ISP here supports it yet). If I can't find a G3 Pro w/modem in the store, I can't buy a G3 Pro if I want to get on the internet. (Well, I could always connect via my current Mac, but then I can't sell it to help fund the G3 Pro purchase.) Leaves mailorder. The future doesn't get me on the net. In the future, I'll have a cable modem ("Maybe sometime next year." is the best I can get out of Time Warner.) so I won't need a 56k modem. I already have a 56k modem, and don't really see why I have to spend $100 to get a New Mac onto the internet when for $10 Apple could have added a serial port. I know why Apple did it. It's the 'iMac effect'. Just look at USB devices. It's no wonder that a good portion of USB devices are in iMac colors or are transparent (Zip, Sparc, etc). Apple wants users to buy new products (that are also Windows products). This gets Windows hw makers to thinking "Man! I have to write a Mac driver and cash in!". In all this time, no PCI modem manufacturer made a driver for the Mac. A few days after the G3 Pro is released, we suddenly have a driver for one (and more are on the way I'm sure). This is no accident. This is good for the customers in the long term, but bad in the short term. Was it better for Apple to ignore valid customer needs so it can gain a long term benefit (which will then eventually benefit other consumers)? Maybe it's a good tradeoff. I certainly hope so. If they can really get a majority of PC hw makers producing mac drivers for their PCI/USB/Firewire hw then it will work out OK in the end. Would it have worked out as well if Apple had just put a serial port on the machine? I don't know -- but I tend to think so. Mac users tend to be out in front, they make things happen. I want to add a trackball to my machine (my Turbo Mouse seems to have been abused to death). I'm waiting for a USB TurboMouse and I'll buy it and a USB PCI Card. It'll cost me an extra $30 or so, but I'll have a device I can use on any future machine. The TurboMouse will last for several years. I'll get the benefit of being able to buy all those great joysticks, USB cameras, etc. I don't think I'm all that unique either. So, Apple sacrificed short term customer good for the long term gain, only I think they'd have the long term gain in any case. Maybe it was needed to knock some sense into PC vendors? >>And, why no Firewire in an iMac? Why have Apple officials stated, "There >>won't be FireWire in an iMac"? I didn't think the FW chips cost that >>much (and must be dropping as Apple needs them in volume for the G3 Pro). >>I'm not surprised that the Rev C version doesn't have them, but am a bit >>surprised to find that there's no plans at all. It is after all a >>'consumer Mac' and Firewire is going to be in consumer products. > >The iMac is for people like my wife and the grandmothers of the world. They >don't need or want Firewire. They want to do word processing, the net and >email. Firewire is for you and me, so don't buy an iMac. How nice to tell the wives and grandmothers of the world what they are going to be doing with their machines over the next few years. Consumer level Firewire products are on their way. Two years at the outside. I expect iMacs to be in use then, but suspect that Apple doesn't. I also expect Apple products to be easy enough to use that my mother could plug a Firewire video camera into an iMac and rip out the video, delete portions of the video, then email it to me. She'll never get that chance. Apple hw always seemed poised for the future, ready to take on any task. The iMac is forever cut off from this, and it'll never perform adequately here either. I expect more from Apple. As I said, I didn't expect Firewire in this rev of an iMac, but I expected it in a future iMac. Seems that there are 'no plans for this'. Maybe the person was wrong (I didn't save off the quote). I'm left wondering, "Why is this?" Esp when Firewire is 'the new SCSI'. Every mac in the past (even the low end ones) had SCSI. I think Apple's got some reason for this, and I suspect it's not to better serve it's customers, but to get them to buy more expensive machines (or to upgrade their iMacs). If Apple added FW to the next iMac (say in 5-6 months), wouldn't that give a *huge* boost to FW as a consumer product (like it's supposed to be)? The other explanation is that the iMac has a limited lifespan and that's why no FW. Apple's got some cute little box that'll hook up to a 15" LCD so it'll be iMac II. I guess time will tell. But, I tell you, if iMacs are still for sale in a year and don't have Firewire, Apple will pay the price sooner or later. And you will as well, expect to be ridiculed for years by PC-AdvocateBoy (in his many net disguises). >>It takes _zero_ effort to simply not talk about getting rid of Obj-c, or >>to plan it's demise. Minimal effort to ensure that it stays around for a >>long time to come actually. Why piss off your developers? Instead, spend >>the time talking about how Yellow will be this primo Java development >>environment. > >Again Apple has an eye on the future, and right now in the industry Java is >prominent in that future. They could be wrong, but we will have to wait and >see. Did you read what I wrote? I didn't say to not develop Java (far from it). I said, "Don't kill Obj-c". Those are not opposing goals. Obj-C _already_ works. How much work would Apple have to do in the future to keep it working? 1) Continue work on the Java-Obj-c bridge (it's two way). 2) Keep the parts Obj-C needs in the Java runtime. (As I understand it, Java is using some of the Obj-c runtime now.) 3) Add compilier support for Obj-c as needed (Altivec). This is almost 'maintainence level' stuff. If Apple GPL'd the Obj-c runtime then the gcc folks would do most of the work for Apple. And maybe: 4) Maybe work on some new tech like garbage collection, etc. But, this may dovetail with the Java work. But developers won't kill you if you don't improve obj-c. Now, you focus your real energy on: a) improving the Java bridge to Yellow. (Wow, part of the above!!) b) improve the Java runtime envirnment. (May be made harder by the above, but who knows. Call it when it happens.) c) Add features to Java (native compiling, use bridge to fully wire into OS X, better support other Java tech.) and lastly: d) Getting Developers (of all stripes, Carbon, Yellow, Windows, Unix) & users pumped about the Great Java Environment. This is "spending their time talking about how Yellow will be this primo Java development environment". Maybe you thought I was being sarcastic? I wasn't, I was dead serious. Instead, they _wasted_ their effort. They spent time dissing Obj-c (and planning the demise of Obj-c), when they could have spent it talking about Java and clearly mapping it's goals. Clear message, all signal. A positive message. Inspires hope that Apple 'gets it'. It doesn't get Apple developers walking away 'through with Apple'. Do you agree with those rough goals? Where did "badmouth obj-c" or "kill obj-c" come into this equation? Do you see how killing off Obj-c helps the Java support get better? I guess it forces developers to use Java when they would have chosen Obj-c before (which proves my point if it's the case). I'm open for you telling me how I'm wrong here. In fact, I'm _hoping_ someone can give me a credible reason here. Am I underestimating how difficult it would be to keep Obj-c support? I just don't see it being a problem for a fairly long time, long enough that you can let Java ripen and still give developers plenty of warning. Sorry, I think I might be ranting. I'm beginning to feel like Lawson again. I'm beginning to understand a bit how he feels. :-( Ack! Yellow Finder! Yellow Finder! Ack! Ack! (I feel a bit better now.) >>Maybe I would have >>if Apple was focusing ahead instead of on what they can needlessly kill. >>At the very least, it would have reduced some of the noise, and we'd have >>gotten more signal from MacWorld. Positive forward thinking instead of a >>rolling black cloud. What nimwit thought that up at Apple? > >Exactly what have the "needlessly killed" in the last 2 years that has put >the company on the brink of disaster? What have they "needlessly killed" >that you can't live without? I'm not saying that every decision is the >correct decision, but this hand has hardly been played out just yet. I don't >think the scorecard can be truly tallied up for another year or two. Well I agree with you. We can only judge these actions by how they play over the long haul. But, when Jobs took over, Apple was still attached to life support and had to make hard decisions with minimal resources. They couldn't support the Mac OS, creating a future buzzword OS, OpenDoc, QD GX, Newton, etc. This is not the case now. Apple has pruned down and is not on life support. Furthermore, some things, like the Obj-c 'decision' (at the very least Apple has spent some needless time talking about this) won't save them much on the bottom line. All they had to do is stop talking about Obj-c and start talking about Java. Answer every "what about Obj-c?" question with "It's still there and fully supported. Our Java work improves Obj-C and allows us to tie in technology like Jini and Javabeans into existing Obj-c Projects" and then continue to talk about Java. Sideband queries return the same, that Obj-c is supported. Developers don't feel cut off, they feel like they are gaining something. Carbon developers simply hear the "Java Message" and don't feel threatened. Apple made similar mistakes in trying to move developers over to Yellowbox. I can almost see the reasoning for killing OSXS Intel, I just think it's very shortsighted. It's not good to stick it to some of your customers and break promises. When you break a promise against the backdrop of "If I don't break this promise, the company could/will die." at least some will forgive you. This is not the case with OSXS Intel. I can buy most of the consumer decisions. In a few months, there will almost no negatives and by next year the rest will have been washed away. Apple's done a good job of hitting the ground running with the iMac, we'll see if they can do the same with the G3 Pro. Those things aren't bad enough to make me mad or bad enough to make me never want to buy one. It's enough that I wouldn't buy one today. But, that's a whole lot better than "I wouldn't buy one." (which was my reaction to the G3 and to the iMac). It's looks like I'm still on a 'I'll buy a new Mac when OS X is released IF I like OS X AND the hw' mode. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:58:57 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ekqg$1ra$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> In article <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>, nomail@anyaccount.edu (Ashish Mishra) wrote: > It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, > speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow > Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple > platforms? 1) The OpenStep APIs do work on multiple platforms. Apple is the one who is reducing the portability of YB applications. 2) Java is inferior to Objective-C in most respects and Apple could easily fix the few lingering problems with Objective-C 3) AWT is a lowest common denominator API. > I think Apple has come to the same realization. Offering three APIs, > Carbon, Yellow-Box, and Java just doesn't make much sense economically or > strategically. Then phase out Carbon. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 11 Jan 1999 21:41:45 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Message-ID: <77dr6p$2ge$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote: >kcobb@austin.rr.com (Ken Cobb) wrote: >>John Carmack wrote in his .plan file: >> > A third order problem is that a lot of the interfaces are fairly >> > clunky. >> I disagree somewhat here. I think Windows is the king of clunky when it >> comes to interfaces. > > Any details? BTW, before this erupts into a flame war, someone should probably clarify for those who haven't read the whole thing, that Carmack was referring to the *programming* interfaces, not the user interface! While I might still disagree with the original statement, it's not as outrageous as it looks :) -- Erick
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 9 Jan 1999 09:14:06 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Message-ID: <7776ku$r2q$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBBB25-3E186@206.165.43.211> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote: >The fact that one of the first YellowBox apps available for MacOS X Server >upon its release will be Photoshop 5.0 sort of contradicts your >statement. I believe once MacOS X Consumer is released in the latter half Whoa whoa whoa, when was this announced??? That's huge news! (I hesitate to ask, but are you sure you're not confusing it with the Carbon Photoshop demo at WWDC?) -- Erick
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <7Yzm2.8158$XY6.173090@news.san.rr.com> Message-ID: <aQAm2.3830$xq4.974@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:11:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:11:34 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <7Yzm2.8158$XY6.173090@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote: > In article <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> , satan@hell.home.com > (Michael Lankton) wrote:-- > > Ok, then I will say that to the average user, who doesn't even know what smp > > is, and can barely point and click their way past their desktop, windows is > > superior. Superior because they can walk into any Best Buy, CompUSA, or > > Software Etc and choose from a vast library of software knowing that it will > > run on their system at home, and it may even be simple enough for them to > > actually use. From a consumer stand point, windows is king- Re-read this response, you obviously didn't get it the first time. I am not a windows advocate. I do appreciate windows as a gaming platform, and I'm not going to spite myself by not running good games because I don't like the operating system. However, to the average user, the unsophisticated, non-tech savvy, the person who uses a word processor and a web browser, windows is the answer. My favorite operating system is FreeBSD, but could my mom use it? With quite a bit of tutelage I could get her functioning in Xwindows, but she would need me to maintain her system for her. This is the average pc user. They don't need a hardcore, robust os. They need a simple, no- brainer os, one that has compatibility in both software and hardware so they don't have to figure out those things for themselves, because they either can't or won't spend the time to learn. Robust os'es generally require a commitment of time greater than the average user cares or is willing to devote. This will change as soon as a couple of the Xwindows desktop environments have matured a little more, making Xwindows more accesible to userland. So, my question to you, since windows is the established standard, and windows users can buy almost any hardware and software and rest assured that it will work on their system, why on Earth would anyone want to buy into a proprietary system that : 1. costs more than intel hardware for the same performance 2. precludes them from using the majority of hardware and software available to them 3. the most common use for desktop computers in the home is gaming, aside from companies like Bungie and Blizzard who package their games as hybrid windows/mac cds and the relatively few ports made long after the windows releases have been available, there is not widespread game development for macos at this time, nor are the tools currently in place to make macos a serious game platform for performance demanding gamers I really don't care, because I am a savvy user, I can pick and choose which os'es I want to run based on their individual merits and how much harddrive space I have available to me. This isn't the case with 90% of the people using computers. So you tell me, I can tell you why it doesn't make sense for any status quo user to consider Apple; provide a convincing argument why, despite all the negative points I have mentioned, Apple is a better userland environment than wintel. Because wintel is Apple's competition, certainly not any of the unices, they have completely different markets. So if Apple isn't superior to wintel, how do they ever hope to gain marketshare? I think Apple has bred their own marketshare, and outside of this small cult of mac worshippers that Apple has somehow produced, I just don't see a market for their product. Yeah, the imac has been a success, so was the Yugo for awhile, but now they're all in scrapyards. The emperor doesn't have any clothes, still.
From: libra@REMOVE_THIS.shaw.wave.ca (adam baker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <libra-1101991929010001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:27:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:27:36 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada > It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, > speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow > Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple > platforms? Because any developer worth their salt has the user in mind. --adam
Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: jfc536@dwave.net (jfc536) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <B2C0367A9668BE121@eris.dw.net> Organization: Arrrgh! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77d0cq$j64$1@news.erinet.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:15:06 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:15:25 CDT In article <77d0cq$j64$1@news.erinet.com>, "Brian Lewis" <brianl@erinet.com> wrote: >Why would it make Apple supporters (kissups as you call them) cry? Carmack >tells it like it is. Here's an idea, get over the bytemarks. It will lower >your blood pressure. > >Steve Sullivan wrote in message ... >>Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the >>kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically >>implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. I read Carmack's entire post and it makes a lot of sense. He candidly points out the drawbacks of the OS, pulls down the pants of the hardware and concludes on a positive note. From a game developer that has essentialy been dumped on by the company for 10 years his message is close to a standing ovation. He describes an excellent game platform that may or may not be better than the Wintel side. Who cares which one is marginaly better? Think of the old adage, "It is not how well the dancing bear performs that counts. What is important is that the bear dances at all." This bear has never danced before, I am happy to see the effort.
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Games, games, games! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca> Organization: Motto Agency Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <kTAm2.21099$Js2.5484@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:14:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:14:56 PDT Its a mac newsgroup isn't it? ---------- In article <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca>, jwct@magma.ca (J.W. Corey Tamas) wrote: > In article <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, > petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote: > >> In article <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net>, >> m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen) wrote: >> >> > I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games >> > and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. >> >> Sorry, but there's a big market for games, and making lots of games >> available for the MacOS helps sell more Macs... > > > And may I also add that you're really in the wrong newsgroup to make your > point heard. > > C
From: jwct@magma.ca (J.W. Corey Tamas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Games, games, games! Message-ID: <jwct-1201990031030001@port21.magma.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca> <kTAm2.21099$Js2.5484@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> Organization: Ace Biscuit Web Solutions Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:27:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:27:12 EDT In article <kTAm2.21099$Js2.5484@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>, "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote: > Its a mac newsgroup isn't it? A newsgroup about action games for the Mac platform, yeah. C
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:18 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:18 GMT On 11 Jan 1999 05:12:15 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >>Why wouldn't it include WO when the 25tpm version >>is now free, and the only part of WO that isn't free and doesn't ship >>with the dev tools is WOB? > Where are you people pulling this FREE business from? > > WOF 4.0 costs $1500 to buy. Deployment is included for 25 >TPM. And what part of WO isn't included in YB? WOB and WOF? If the 25 tpm version of WOF is a free deployment now, that leaves only WOB. So that one little part is $1000? As much as I was very pleased with the DR2 version, I doubt that I'll stick around unless there is some solid reason to. If anything, I'll just pay the $1500 for WO and run it on NT. I'm perfectly happy selling NT boxes to my clients.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:19 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77emjf$7s$3@news.panix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> <77b5r8$6st$1@cleavage.canuck.com> <SCOTT.99Jan11094245@slave.doubleu.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:19 GMT On 11 Jan 99 09:42:45, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote: >It's worse than that - without a free or nearly free runtime, how do >we hook new customers in the first place? We can go the old-fashioned Scott, what is the viability of porting to WO and using the Java client interface? You would have to rewrite the UI for your App using Swing, but you get to keep IB+PB when you do so. That would allow you to deploy the 25tpm version on NT and ship the client portion anywhere Java runs.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:20 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77emjg$7s$4@news.panix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <1dlf01v.1bm9m151qvepeiN@[10.0.0.3]> <EO0m2.17763$kR5.23869@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> <rex-1001991505240001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <ygc3e5hiu8j.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:20 GMT On 11 Jan 1999 10:39:56 -0700, Dr. William V. Smith <smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu> wrote: >Unfortunately, even the BSD part may be missing. This is now >an optional install and could disappear from mosx by the >time it ships for real. Doubtful if they want to still use Apache in OSX. > Apple is now making a point (underground >at least) of just "how" different mosxs and mosx are going to be. >Planting the seeds for the end of Yellow? Not only Adobe, it seems that >Gates and Co. were also negative on Yellow wrt Office updates. >Obj C is gone. No it isn't. Apple is working to make Java a "first class" lang on OSX, they aren't killin Obj-C. > Don't count on anything. I'd like to just keep >DR2 and run it as an orphan, but Apple cleverly broke it for G3s >built after last summer. So I'll buy mosxs but that will >probably be the end of purchases from Apple (of course there >could be a miracle at Apple . . . nah.) According to Scott Anguish's BOF report, you should be getting a developer version of OSX if you are part of the dev program.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:18 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77emje$7s$2@news.panix.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <ufg19lnwaw.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:29:18 GMT On 08 Jan 1999 17:07:19 -0700, Clifford T. Matthews <ctm@ardi.com> wrote: >When Apple bought Power Computing, Yellow Box died. It took some time >for this to sink in, though. Huh? How are YB and hardware cloning related?
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:45:31 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77enhr$ppl$1@news.digifix.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> On 01/11/99, Sal Denaro wrote: >On 11 Jan 1999 05:12:15 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >>>Why wouldn't it include WO when the 25tpm version >>>is now free, and the only part of WO that isn't free and doesn't ship >>>with the dev tools is WOB? >> Where are you people pulling this FREE business from? >> >> WOF 4.0 costs $1500 to buy. Deployment is included for 25 >>TPM. > >And what part of WO isn't included in YB? WOB and WOF? If the 25 tpm >version of WOF is a free deployment now, that leaves only WOB. > >So that one little part is $1000? > I simply can't make sense of this "Logic". WebObjects on Windows includes the Yellow Box frameworks, the WebObjects Frameworks and WebObjects Builder. It also includes a 25 TPM deployment license. There is nothing free about the 25 transaction per minute license of WebObjects. That is included with the $1500 product. You can't break the product up the way your attempting to (giving a dollar value to the different apps). Apple is included WebObjects with Mac OS X Server because they intend that to be the market that it is going to be pushed at. Apple is including a 50 TPM license instead of a 25 TPM license on the PowerPC version. >As much as I was very pleased with the DR2 version, I doubt that I'll >stick around unless there is some solid reason to. If anything, I'll >just pay the $1500 for WO and run it on NT. I'm perfectly happy selling >NT boxes to my clients. You'll end up paying MORE for basic deployment than you would using the Mac OS X Server license (add onto that the cost of NT Server since legally thats what you'd need), and your clients will be restricted to fewer transactions per minute or pay even more still. Quite the punishment for your being somewhat bitter. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: d_munter@nospam.yahoo.com (Pie-rat) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:30:55 -0500 Organization: Pie-rat Inc. Message-ID: <d_munter-1101991830560001@user-37ka97a.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > I'm sure that many people we will never hear about write some of the best > code being written. OS and game development are high profile. I would stand > by my statement, given that the man invented the genre that only he raises > the bar on every 18 or so months. are you saying that john carmack invented computer games? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- | four and twenty black rats baked in a pie | | pie-rat (at) myth2 (dot) com | | spamming really sucks </pie-rat> | --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:19:31 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:19:32 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> , satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- >> The only question is, does it get the job done. The MacOS does and will do >> so even better, when the MacOSX hits the streets. Right now MacOS X Server >> can stand up to any OS currently on the market.- > > 1. Until mosxs proves that it is as stable and robust as any *BSD or SVR4 > based unix I would be afraid to pitch it to management as my choice to trust > our corporations mission-critical operations to. > > 2. Mosxs has no smp. How many ppc's does it take to replace one > multi-processor sparc or sgi box? Sheesh, even windows nt has smp. > >>Are we talking operating systems here or hardware? MacOS 8.5 vs. Win98, no >>contest. Mac wins hands down. Mac hardware vs. intel boxes, Mac wins again, >>hands down. > > Why are you telling me this? I'm not a windows user, with the exception of a > 2 gig partition I have strictly for gaming. Macos, windows, your face, your > ass, what's the difference? Tell me how macos is superior to unix, then > I'll argue with you. > 1. OPENSTEP, NeXTSTEP, Rhapsody. MOSXS is well proven in real world situations. Only the name has been changed to protect the innocent. :-) 2. Hey, that's coming too!! *MOSX* Well I'm telling you because you were listening. Let me see the MacOS is easier to use than unix, easier to set-up, easier to trouble-shoot, superior interface, superior gaming environment, superior peripheral connectivity...... Shall I go on? You see it's how one defines SUPERIOR. To the average Jane or Joe, the Mac is superior in every aspect. But to a CIO with a thousand clients, unix is king. So go and sit your ass on your face, then you'll be able to argue with yourself; that's the difference. -- Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. Wm. (Soup) Jr.
From: eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:05:54 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Message-ID: <eviltofu-1101992205540001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > >This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box >says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost >universally ignored it. It's a bit difficult to be interested in a product which isn't available. From the Apple Web Site: "Rhapsody/Mac OS X Server DR2 is no longer being seeded due to the expiration of a third party software license. We will keep you informed through ADC Seeding e-mails as new software becomes available." <http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/> How can I start with something that is not available? MacOS X Server will not be available until February (Hopefully). The people who answered the phones at the Apple Store don't know when it's released either. It's frustrating trying to get started. And it's pointless getting an older version (OS 4.2) on an Intel box since Apple is not going to be releasing MacOS X Server for Intel or the even older 68k hardware. Doh!
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 12 Jan 1999 04:02:46 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <77ehh6$ed1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: joe.ragosta@dol.net In <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote: > In article <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott > Anguish) wrote: > > > On 01/08/99, "Lawson English" wrote: > > > > > > > > >>So let's see... we screw veteran OPENSTEP developers and brave Mac > > >>developers > > >>who have made the move the Yellow Box so as to reassure Mac > > developers, > > >>and we > > >>do this in a way that is guaranteed to increase Mac developers' > > mistrust > > >of > > >>Apple's ability/willingness to follow through on its commitments. > > Yep, > > >>makes > > >>perfect sense. > > > > > >Make a distinction here: Apple makes moves to placate Microsoft, > > Adobe, > > >MacroMind and the other "top 100 Mac developers" while increasing the > > >smaller developer's mistrust of Apple's ability/willingness to follow > > >through on its commitments. > > > > Wouldn't the "top 100 Mac developers" include alot of those > > independent small shops that you just claimed were YB positive? > > > > Apple keeps its word and ships the product in the form that it > > promised (if not the timeframe) and Mac devs piss on them. > > > > Ain't that a bitch.. > > This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box > says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost > universally ignored it. > It is true YB 'was'/'is' amazing technology. With the initial onrush of NeXTer's I suspect that they completely forgot about the MacOS folk - hence the buildup of YB in WWDC 98.. Clearly no-one at Apple seems to sit back and think. If I were X person (MacOS Developer, MacOS user, admin, Openstep Dev, User, admin.. NT User.. Linux User... etc.) How would this affect me.. Bluebox was a first attempt to satisfy them. But what MacOS developers wanted was some hope of being Native in the new OS with as much if not all their legacy code. I think they knew this would not happen, but they could hope. Again. Legacy. Legacy.. Legacy.. Seems like Intel and MS are the only ones who have this figured out.. BTW: If anyone thinks that Apple is going to 'make it' take a look at www.sgi.com and take a look at their new offerings.. Spin circles all around a PPC box I bet.. Oh can U say SMP.. I knew you could. IMHO Apple is completely sitting still while the alliances are being formed. SGI teamed up even partually with MS/Intel is going to be absolutely tough to beat.. There are questions to be sure.. But the dual and quad proc boxes they designed are priced well, and in many ways blow the heck out of competition. Proprietary yes. If SGI releases some of the specs so Linux folk can do a port watch out. Apple is spread too thin and getting eaten around the edges.. Oh one thing the SGI boxes don't run NT Server.. So nope can't get WO on them I guess.. Tooo bad.. Though they'd probably blow the drawers off what Apple could come up with... Not knocking Apple hardware engineers, but SGI/Cray is a team they'll not easily beat.. Whether SGI can sell these killers is another story... I feel a solid shift going on.. Time to go do some research.. And maybe write an article or two.. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:05:42 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:06:25 CDT In article <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: >The only problem I have with such a notion is that all the reasons for >not shipping MacOS X Server/Intel apply equally well to MacOS X of any >stripe running on Merced. Furthermore, with a couple years of MacOS X >Server/Intel under their belt, Apple would be in a position to rollout >more-or-less immediately on Merced, by first targetting the x86 >emulation and converting over to the EPIC side of things as time >permits. [All indications are that Merced's EPIC won't be much if any >faster than Merced's x86 - in contrast to McKinley, where EPIC is >supposed to be much faster.] It could be that Apple's making a bad gamble. It's trying to make a big splash at once rather than a slow entrace. MS doesn't have the best track record of tranitioning to new Intel chips. The 386 was a 32 bit chip and the Pentium Pro tanked for Win 95 because it had too much 16 bit code. If MS does the same for Merced/McKinley, then a pure EPIC Mac OS could run significantly better on the same hw than Windows. Worse, Windows developers have the same problem. Their programs will run well on Merced, why should they waste a bunch of effort making them fully EPIC? OTH, if Apple transitions OS X1 as fully EPIC with a fully EPIC Carbon & YB, Apple developers will have to create fully EPIC apps. Futhermore, Connectix could produce a kickin' version of Virtual PC that ran Windows 2000 & apps under OS X1 about as fast as the same hw would natively. Thus by buying the 'safe hw', Merced/McKinley & Windows 2000, a user could spend $200 (OS X1 & Virtual PC), and run all the same apps at the same speed. Yet, if they upgrade their apps to OS X1 apps instead of Windows 2000 apps, they'll get a big speed boost. In order to optimize your chance that MS will fumble, you have to make them think you aren't ready to do anything yet. So you can all Intel versions, and focus on your custumn PPC hw. The gamble is made hairier here, as you need to have drivers ready when you make the leap. To that end, it's nice that Apple's gaining some marketshare. They might have the clout needed to have drivers ready (from the PPC Mac OS) or get vendors to rapidly write drivers before the release. A good way to optimize this, is to find a way to get Linux to use the rad IOKit to make Linux drivers (or to take the OpenMach/BSD route and hope it catches on....) Meanwhile, you secretly have Intel stop by with Merced chips & compilers and burn the midnight oil to make sure you take full advantage of EPIC. Then, and this is the real flaw, you have to tell all your developers (hence MS) so they can move all their apps. Even if it's just a click recompile (which it won't be for every app, but for some it'll be only minor effort), developers will still have to fully test their product. This means at least 3-6 months (an 'everything turned out roses' guess). Connectix would have to have a much longer warning. This gives MS some time to go into paranoia mode and make Windows 2000 fully EPIC and for MS to pressure it's key developers to not support the Mac OS, port fully to EPIC, and in general spread FUD wherever they go. Worse, Linux will be fully native EPIC soon after chips are available. MS is already paranoid about Linux and that might be enough to get them to do the transition correctly. The other flaw is as you mentioned, Merced won't give that big a boost to using EPIC esp when compared to the x86 chips that it'll be selling in the same time frame. This will take the thunder out of the tactic, and give MS time until McKinley ships to be ready. And finally, Apple doesn't have credibility in the x86 market, so it'd be better to build some first. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> Message-ID: <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:39:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:39:00 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- > Well I'm telling you because you were listening. Let me see the MacOS is > easier to use than unix, easier to set-up, yes and yes >easier to trouble-shoot, NO. A good sysadmin knows his/her system like their spouse's moods. If you have the stones to properly setup and run a unix system then you sure as hell can pin down the cause of any problems that may arise. My guess is that macos shields the user from this type of interaction from the system, windows 9x certainly does. Microsoft and Apple don't want to confuse their cutomers with the internals of the os, understandably so. >superior interface NeXT has yet to be surpassed in gui excellence. Xwindows is an odd mix of superior design and mediocre to bad design, as well as severely inconsistent. Maturing quickly though, and certainly offers the user much more freedom to hand tailor their interface than any other gui environment. > superior gaming environment, superior peripheral > connectivity...... Linux is _slowly_ catching up to macos in terms of gaming. Next to windows no os supports more hardware than linux does. The BSD's and Solaris also offer pretty good hardware support. >Shall I go on? You see it's how one defines SUPERIOR. - Ok, then I will say that to the average user, who doesn't even know what smp is, and can barely point and click their way past their desktop, windows is superior. Superior because they can walk into any Best Buy, CompUSA, or Software Etc and choose from a vast library of software knowing that it will run on their system at home, and it may even be simple enough for them to actually use. From a consumer stand point, windows is king
From: jwct@magma.ca (J.W. Corey Tamas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Games, games, games! Message-ID: <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> Organization: Ace Biscuit Web Solutions Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:57:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:57:57 EDT In article <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote: > In article <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net>, > m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen) wrote: > > > I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games > > and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. > > Sorry, but there's a big market for games, and making lots of games > available for the MacOS helps sell more Macs... And may I also add that you're really in the wrong newsgroup to make your point heard. C
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:00:26 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p167.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369A8289.F3665991@tone.ca> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77dudg$ed7@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 22:59:41 GMT No, he's the other guy. Michael Greg Anderson wrote: > spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > I, for one, would be in the market for pretty much > > every single YB app available. > > Oh, so *you're* the guy. 8^) > > Greg
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:07:48 -0500 Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh Message-ID: <jayfar-1101992307480001@ppp97.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com In article <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca>, libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) wrote: | Apple was always fine. There's never been impending death for that | company. They are sitting on massive talent and mounds of cash. They've | been involved in tons of projects that went different directions: | Taligent, Versit, Newton, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, Star Trek, etc. gaining | a lot of useful experience at least. [snip] Unfortunately, much of that useful experience has been shown the door and is now working for companies like MS and Netscape. [trimmed groups] Cheers, Jayfar -- Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily * Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html> Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: OSX/Intel, etc. my .02 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Message-ID: <369acb87.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 12 Jan 99 04:11:51 GMT First, so far, I'm glad I didn't cough up the $500 to continue my registered developer status. Second, last week I ordered the Delphi 4 upgrade. Haven't looked at it since Delphi 2, so it'll be interesting. (Unfortunately, I don't think the version I bought includes their CORBA stuff.) However, third, I also ordered the new 17" monitor from Apple, to use with my PC. I thought about getting a similarly-specced Iiyama, but the price was so close I figured I'd go for the funky one. (It'll go better with the funky desk I plan to build, and since I can't afford either IBM's 1280x1024, or SGI's killer model...) I just hope it's not one of their DOA monitors. (By the way, is anyone else a little surprised Jobs didn't go with the Frogdesign monitor stand used in the Apple IIc and the NeXT?) Software-wise, I'm going to wait on Apple until OS/X actually ships, and then I'll consider buying a Mac, depending on what's happened to YellowBox. <hate that name still> And based lightly on what Apple's then *claiming* to be the future plan. Now, as far as OS/X Server for Intel is concerned: IMHO, what Apple should do, is to ship OS/X Server for Intel to their registered developers, providing minimal support. That wouldn't technically count as 'productized', since it would essentially be a third developer release, not a public release. This seems like a reasonable middle ground. It provides developers with a way to use their Intel boxes to build software for both of Apple's chosen deployment platforms (NT and Mach/PPC). If an ISV wants to take best advantage of Mach, and ignore NT, they can do that on their Intel box. Intel users can evaluate the OS, and they can evaluate YB, on one machine. Apple still gets to limit end-users to running OS X/Server on PowerMacs, or YB apps on NT. They won't end up with lots of Intel seats of OS/X Server being used as a Workstation OS, creating lots of support headaches years down the road as businesses harp on them for the latest drivers. Granted, this isn't an *ideal* solution, but those went the way of the Carolina parakeet decades ago.
From: ian@nyro.com (I.H.Stewart) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:09:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <19990112040506.ian@nyro.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <2Hym2.3815$xq4.1029@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <libra-1101992155250001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <7Xym2.3817$xq4.1056@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform iss ues Organization: NYRO Technix - Makers of NYRO-SPACE & Mind. Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Intel has stated that their will be a x86 emu. in chip in the IA-64. An interesting thing I think I remember from when I was at NeXT, was that someone was working on a driver engine that would use native NT drivers in OPENSTEP. Remember that the video drive guys figured out how to make 32bit BIOS calls to the video cards (see generic S3 and ATI drivers. I think I have sample source from Canon for these) The question is, who owns the drivers, MS or the vendor or both. This would be great, because now a vendor only needs to create one driver and a PCI card and have the market leader (NT) and the technology leader (Mac OS X for Intel) compatiblilty. Someone at rumors or insider want to poke around? IH In Article <news:7Xym2.3817$xq4.1056@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, Michael Lankton wrote: >In <libra-1101992155250001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> adam baker wrote: >> > In <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> adam baker >wrote: >> > > Pardon me, what's 'EPIC'?- >> > >> > IIRC the forthcoming 64 bit intel cpu is really a hybrid of RISC and CISC >> > design. Feel free to correct me if that is incorrect. >> >> Sounds interesting--a hybrid in what way? For what purpose (backward >> compatibility?)- > >No, as far as I know intel has no plans to include backwards compatability >for x86 in their 64 bit cpus. I haven't payed much attention to ia64 specs >and epic because it still seems like it's a long ways off, although I'm sure >there are online articles that explore what is known about the future cpu. >Perhaps www.tomshardware.com addresses what is known about ia64 to date. >
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:11:24 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > John Carmack is one of the most talented > coders on the planet Not to take anything away fro Mr Carmack but that is a bold and most rediculous statement. Some of the best coders are probably peaple you have never heard of before. I know for a fact that the programmers at Pittsburgh Supercomputer are pretty good in their own right. Grnated they do not right games but they do do some excellent work. For grins and giggles check out the biomedical computing group. They may just save your life one day. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> Message-ID: <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:09:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:09:46 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> Comic Book Database wrote: > > Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented > > coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. > > However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards > > Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. > > Why is the worst? Justify that statement. I've used Windows and MacOS, I > would really like to hear your take on it. It's really easy to just say > something sucks. Prove it or get lost.- No protected memory, no pre-emptive multi-tasking, one mouse button, ugly gui. Granted, these gripes are being addressed by OS X, but Apple had to _BUY_ NeXT technology to do so. Also, it's 1999 for Christ's sake; Apple was ahead of the competition back in 1984 and has rested on their laurels ever since. Apple shouldn't only just now be taking steps to make their os as robust and stable as one would expect a modern os to be, they should have been addressing the problems years ago. Apple's core customer are the macophiles who have never used a serious os or hardware, and probably wouldn't know what to do if they had it. I wonder who is more anxious, NeXT users who are watching Apple rape their beloved interface, or the mac users who comprise the least sophisticated group of computer users and are probably terrified of the pending changes to their little world. I have no love for Windows, although at least it is an excellent gaming platform (and don't say that Apple is a viable gaming platform, because it isn't). Running an intel box gives me access to a lot of stable, robust operating systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, Solaris, SCO, NeXT/OPENSTEP, QNX, to name os'es that I have used on this box at home, not to mention BSDi, BeOS, and NetBSD, and I'm sure I am forgetting a few), and I can have a windows partition for gaming as well. Apple users appear united in their feeling that they are using "the" alternative os, the rebel os, the jedi os fighting against the Evil Empire in Redmond. heh You guys kill me.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:13:48 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-1101991813480001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> In article <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the > kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically > implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. Can you say "Advertising". Everyone that has a product to sell will embelish from time to time. If it were so blatently wrong then Intel with all the lawyers in the world or even Compaq would have halted the ad Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:20:43 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-1101991820430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > > I don't know what the previous poster's real problem was, but it doesn't > > _require_ 270MB RAM... I ran it quite nicely with a partition of about 95MB, > > with all the spiff options turned on. > > That's only marginally better. > > It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks. Joe do not worry by the time th product actually ships computers will ship with 128 MB standard. ;-) As for games like Quake......I have work to do and so do you. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:50:14 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77enqm$pst$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <1dlf01v.1bm9m151qvepeiN@[10.0.0.3]> <EO0m2.17763$kR5.23869@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> <rex-1001991505240001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> <ygc3e5hiu8j.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77emjg$7s$4@news.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <77emjg$7s$4@news.panix.com> On 01/11/99, Sal Denaro wrote: <snip> >According to Scott Anguish's BOF report, you should be getting a developer >version of OSX if you are part of the dev program. > It doesn't say that you'll get it for free. We don't know what the details are as yet. Apple should be telling us NOW though, same with the educational pricing.. Just look at the way things are being torn apart here in this group. Largely based on rumors and speculation. Incidently, I'm not sure WHERE this YB/NT licensing is dead rumor has originated. According to Ernie at the BOF its still planned. According to another YB developer who spoke to Apple today its still planned and should be available for signing any day now. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:21:45 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <77epki$aqd$1@camel0.mindspring.com> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> <ygczp7phd6i.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article <ygczp7phd6i.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> , smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) wrote: > sanguish@digifix.com wrote: >> Privately I've been told where the blame for this lays. Boy, this story is following a classic Usenet evolution. This must be the conspiracy theory phase... > The interesting thing about this is the influence scared people > at Apple had on the big third-party developers, not the reverse. > When Apple bought NeXT and then the CEO change took place, there > was enough bad feeling at Apple (fear) that a number of scare > tactics were employed by some people at Apple to encourage > serious negative feedback (about what came to be called YB) > with the big houses. Many of those folks are still at Apple, > and continue to do the same things on a more subtle level. It just has to be those nasty old Apple people. Never mind that nearly the entire executive staff are former NeXT employees.
From: rtaylor@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:22:37 -0800 Organization: Chambers Multimedia Connection Message-ID: <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: >Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented >coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. >However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards >Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. No, that award would go to CMS -- IBM's lovely mainframe operating system. Other competitors for the "worst OS crown" could well be AIX and RSTS. I love it when people with 2-3 OS's under their belts try to talk about "bad" OS's :) -- Russ Taylor (http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/) CMC Tech Support Manager "Elvis didn't die, he just went home" -- K.
From: "Imperator" <imperator@irradiated.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:31:10 -0600 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> Organization: Myth Irradiated -- http://www.irradiated.com/myth/ Message-ID: <77ej5r$nl3$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <snipped thread> Please stop crossposting this thread to alt.games.myth. We don't care whether other groups want to have platform advocacy, but we don't want it. After all, alt.games.myth is about Bungie's games, Myth: The Fallen Lords and Myth II: Soulblighter. Crossposting an advocacy thread to alt.games.myth is totally inappropriate. Thanks for your time; please email me any replies you have to this particular message, as I will probably not be reading your group. /----------------------------------------------------------------\ | Omer Shenker a.k.a. Imperator ICQ: #13168213 | | oshenker@earthlink.net imperator@irradiated.com | | | | Webmaster, Myth Irradiated Resurgam | | http://www.irradiated.com/myth/ Optimus Oaximus | \----------------------------------------------------------------/
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 12 Jan 1999 04:27:06 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77eiuq$o89$1@news.digifix.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> In-Reply-To: <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> On 01/11/99, Rick wrote: <snip> >What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a >Server. The end user OS will be out shortly. > What do you not understand about the definition of SHORTLY? A year is not SHORTLY. Especially in the computer world. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <d_munter-1101991830560001@user-37ka97a.dialup.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <cWvm2.3775$xq4.1032@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:36:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:36:40 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <d_munter-1101991830560001@user-37ka97a.dialup.mindspring.com> Pie-rat wrote: > In article <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > > > I'm sure that many people we will never hear about write some of the best > > code being written. OS and game development are high profile. I would stand > > by my statement, given that the man invented the genre that only he raises > > the bar on every 18 or so months. > > are you saying that john carmack invented computer games?-- Re-read my post, I have posted your response in it's entirety so you can do so. I said _genre_, that genre being first-person perpective 3d action games.
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <77ehh6$ed1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <pBAm2.8171$XY6.173666@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:55:48 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:55:49 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <77ehh6$ed1$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> , spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > Proprietary yes. If SGI releases some of the specs so Linux folk can do a port > watch out. > > Apple is spread too thin and getting eaten around the edges.. Oh one thing > the SGI boxes don't run NT Server.. So nope can't get WO on them I guess.. > Tooo bad.. Though they'd probably blow the drawers off what Apple could > come up with... Not knocking Apple hardware engineers, but SGI/Cray > is a team they'll not easily beat.. Whether SGI can sell these killers is another > story... > > I feel a solid shift going on.. Time to go do some research.. And maybe write > an article or two.. > > Randy Rencsok > rencsok or spammers at > ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com I just don't get it, Apple is the only ones who don't have their shit together right. How did the other companies get all of the smart people and Apple ended up with the dummies. And also, how did all the 'visionary' industry analysts seem to find their way onto this newsgroup. Like my grandma use to say 'the lord works in mysterious ways'. makes you wanna go hmmm....... -- Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. Wm. (Soup) Jr.
From: rtaylor@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:27:30 -0800 Organization: Chambers Multimedia Connection Message-ID: <rtaylor-1101992227300001@alander.cmc.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> In article <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca>, libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) wrote: >Raw computing power can be measured in microprocessors using SPECint and >SPECfp, but there's really no point in comparing much else. I also have >yet to see a definitive resolution to the benchmark argument. It actually can't. Keep in mind that Intel got some heat for rigging their chips and compiler to perform better on the Spec (91? 93?) benchmarks, when that performance did not relate to any real-world results. They were hardly the only ones to do so. Spec95 is supposed to be better, granted. -- Russ Taylor (http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/) CMC Tech Support Manager "So, how's Robin?" -- The Joker
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:18:34 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:18:35 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> , satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> Comic Book Database wrote: >> > Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented >> > coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system > ever. >> > However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous > towards >> > Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. >> >> Why is the worst? Justify that statement. I've used Windows and MacOS, I >> would really like to hear your take on it. It's really easy to just say >> something sucks. Prove it or get lost.- > > No protected memory, no pre-emptive multi-tasking, one mouse button, ugly > gui. Granted, these gripes are being addressed by OS X, but Apple had to > _BUY_ NeXT technology to do so. Also, it's 1999 for Christ's sake; Apple > was ahead of the competition back in 1984 and has rested on their laurels > ever since. Apple shouldn't only just now be taking steps to make their os > as robust and stable as one would expect a modern os to be, they should have > been addressing the problems years ago. Apple's core customer are the > macophiles who have never used a serious os or hardware, and probably > wouldn't know what to do if they had it. I wonder who is more anxious, NeXT > users who are watching Apple rape their beloved interface, or the mac users > who comprise the least sophisticated group of computer users and are probably > terrified of the pending changes to their little world. > I have no love for Windows, although at least it is an excellent gaming > platform (and don't say that Apple is a viable gaming platform, because it > isn't). Running an intel box gives me access to a lot of stable, robust > operating systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, Solaris, SCO, NeXT/OPENSTEP, > QNX, to name os'es that I have used on this box at home, not to mention BSDi, > BeOS, and NetBSD, and I'm sure I am forgetting a few), and I can have a > windows partition for gaming as well. Apple users appear united in their > feeling that they are using "the" alternative os, the rebel os, the jedi os > fighting against the Evil Empire in Redmond. heh You guys kill me. > Are we talking operating systems here or hardware? MacOS 8.5 vs. Win98, no contest. Mac wins hands down. Mac hardware vs. intel boxes, Mac wins again, hands down. All of this babble about pre- emp. this, multi- task.. that is for the geek crowd. ( of course I know it's essential to the evolution of the OS). But these features are not what makes an OS essentially better. (Win 95/98 has them and it's definitely not better.) Also Apple bought, not stole, like some companies I know. The only question is, does it get the job done. The MacOS does and will do so even better, when the MacOSX hits the streets. Right now MacOS X Server can stand up to any OS currently on the market. Finally, Us Mac users are using *THE* operating system and YOU guys are using the *ALTERNATIVE* OS. You are the ones rebelling against the tides of change. The Evil Empire is a thing of the past. We jedi [I kind of like that; thanks] are moving onward into the next Millennium. We no longer care which is *Better* or the *Best*. We just know what we like and will not try to defend our likes any longer. Run your Win95/98, have your Linux and BeOS. The Mac is my OS until the last lights go out at that building in Cuppertino. You guys kill me too.
From: rjcousin@sfu.ca (Ryan John Cousineau) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 11 Jan 1999 17:42:29 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Message-ID: <77dd65$9s1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com (Sam) writes: >On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:26:16 -0500, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) >wrote: >>In article <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au>, sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com >>(Sam) wrote: >> >>> You obviously do not care about the millions of jobs the Japanese >>> stole in western countries in many industries, thorough dumping, >>> stealing secrets and copying. >> >>GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. This is with out the lamest of arguements I have >>ever heard. The only dumping that goes on is mainly from countries such >>as Korea(low tech and low labor prices) and in regards to to Steel. This >>is due to economic pressures on their country and not the issue. >Give me a fucking break >They don't have to dump much now, they have decimated the Motorcycle, >Television, supercomputers and others. I can't speak to the specifics of the TV and supercomputer markets, but I do fancy myself an expert in motorcycles, especially here in North America. In the 1960s, Japan was producing OHC 450s (Honda CB450 "Black Bomber") which would run with a 650 Brit bike (the serious competition of the time) and _didn't leak oil_. The fact that this design element surprised the competition may indicate how ripe the market was for the picking. Also, Japanese electrical systems worked, another remarkable development. By the time the early 70s rolled around, Japan could boast of bikes like the OHC CB750 four, which was the first serious production bike with disk brakes. It also was much faster and better turned-out than the competition (well maybe British paint still came in better colors). The British response involved banana seats (I'm not kidding; check out the Norton Hi-Rider). Even in the lightweight markets, the most noteworthy Japanese bikes really had no competitors quite like them. The tale about getting a CZ rider to defect is true, and what he brought with him was the secret to tuned two-stroke exhaust systems, but the most popular lightweight bike of all was the Honda Cub, a 50cc four-stroke. >What about my stealing and copying comment. Okay, the Kawasaki W-1 does indicate some copying went on :). It's a dead ringer for a BSA 650 twin. >My central point was that the Japanese compete HARD in other peoples >countries, NOT their own. Whatever barriers might have been in the way of non-Japanese bikes entering Japan, they quickly proved (in pretty much every market in the world) the superiority of Japanese bikes to those coming from anywhere else. >Their markets are heavily protected through law, market and cultural >barriers. Cultural barriers are permitted: isn't putting large "Made in the USA" stickers on products basically an attempt to induce a cultural preference for that product? I'm not against such things; Canada does this quite rabidly, especially with its cultural products (except the Barenaked Ladies; we used to love them, then we hated them, now we just accept them. It's hard to explain.) >Since you are a dumb American who calls national tournaments World >Series I will take that into consideration I'm sure the Americans would be quite happy to pit the World Series champion against the Australian national baseball team, and the trophy was named for the New York World (a sponsoring newspaper), anyways. -- Ryan Cousineau, rjcousin@sfu.ca "Even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it." -- Ingrid Newkirk, PETA founder and insulin-dependent diabetic, Vogue, September 1989
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 12 Jan 1999 06:36:05 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <77eqgl$iqv$1@remarQ.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> In article <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com>, Rick <nospamhattonr@aug.com> wrote: >What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a >Server. The end user OS will be out shortly. Yes, but: The deep sixing of OSXS/Intel suggests that Apple wants to have all Mac software deployed on Apple hardware. That brings into question their commtiment to YB/Windows, and in turn their commtiment to YB, period. From a developer's standpoint, this has gone from writing once and deploying on the two major desktop platforms, to maybe writing once and shipping direct to landfill. Are you going to bet your house to develop for this market? -- Don McGregor |"If he means it, there is no trusting his judgment--if he mcgredo@mbay.net |does not mean it I have no time to waste on such trifling."
Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: jfc536@dwave.net (jfc536) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <B2C0367C9668BE162@eris.dw.net> Organization: Arrrgh! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:15:08 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:15:26 CDT In article <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com>, "Jason Sims" <SPAMjason@SUCKSmacvertigo.com> wrote: >Yes, Apple is improving, and has been for a long time. They've had a lot of >hurdles to jump over and are really not doing that badly overall, >considering the difficulties they've faced BESIDES figuring out a way to >replace an aging OS without alienating what's left of their userbase. > >>Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the >>only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) I have a reason. I have a number of fully functional Macs. The oldest is the first lc that came out. It has a 68040 accelerator that I bought for $200 4 years ago. It is pretty old. I have a 2SI that I bought 9 years ago that just keeps chugging along. I also have a PBG3 and believe it or not a 4 year old PB5300. With the exception of the 5300 (which was fixed for free) I have not had any major hardware failures on these machines. They all function and do what I bought them to do. How many xx86's are still in service after 8 years?
From: rtaylor@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:24:06 -0800 Organization: Chambers Multimedia Connection Message-ID: <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: >I'm sure that many people we will never hear about write some of the best >code being written. OS and game development are high profile. I would stand >by my statement, given that the man invented the genre that only he raises >the bar on every 18 or so months. Hmm, that explains why Pathways into Darkness innovated the RT-3D plot, and Marathon the RT-3D physics model. Id's games are, for want of a better phrase, lame. -- Russ Taylor (http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/) CMC Tech Support Manager "I like the hat" -- Korben Dallas, The Fifth Element
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <7Yzm2.8158$XY6.173090@news.san.rr.com> <aQAm2.3830$xq4.974@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <f%Cm2.8205$XY6.175540@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:39:55 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:39:55 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <aQAm2.3830$xq4.974@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> , satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > So, my question to you, since windows is the established standard, and > windows users can buy almost any hardware and software and rest assured that > it will work on their system, why on Earth would anyone want to buy into a > proprietary system that : > 1. costs more than intel hardware for the same performance > 2. precludes them from using the majority of hardware and software available > to them > 3. the most common use for desktop computers in the home is gaming, aside > from companies like Bungie and Blizzard who package their games as hybrid > windows/mac cds and the relatively few ports made long after the windows > releases have been available, there is not widespread game development for > macos at this time, nor are the tools currently in place to make macos a > serious game platform for performance demanding gamers Dear Satan ...err I mean Michael what are you smoking? 1. nothing in the wintel world costs less than a Mac at the same performance-point price. Nothing. 2. I'm not going to rehash this tired old argument. I personally have 3 word processors, 2 web browsers. 3 email programs, 2 contact managers, 2 graphic programs, lots of 3rd party utilities, 3 web design programs, Page layout program, 3 spreadsheets apps, 15 gaming apps and a "partridge in a pear tree". There is not one Program I have needed that I couldn't buy. Not One. Next myth! 3.See MacWorld Expo.....nuff said. > I really don't care, because I am a savvy user, I can pick and choose which > os'es I want to run based on their individual merits and how much harddrive > space I have available to me. This isn't the case with 90% of the people > using computers. > So you tell me, I can tell you why it doesn't make sense for any status quo > user to consider Apple; provide a convincing argument why, despite all the > negative points I have mentioned, Apple is a better userland environment than > wintel. Because wintel is Apple's competition, certainly not any of the > unices, they have completely different markets. So if Apple isn't superior > to wintel, how do they ever hope to gain marketshare? > I think Apple has bred their own marketshare, and outside of this small cult > of mac worshippers that Apple has somehow produced, I just don't see a > market for their product. Yeah, the imac has been a success, so was the Yugo > for awhile, but now they're all in scrapyards. The emperor doesn't have any > clothes, still. > 32% of iMac buyers were first time buyers. Another17% were wintel converts. Smells like market share to me. "First Apple came for the wintel crowd and I said nothing. next they came for the BeOS- then they came for me (unix)." Know your competition Satan...err Michael. (just an observation) I'm always amazed at how wintel,linux,Be,and unix folks consistently find there way onto mac-specific newsgroups, yet proclaim to have no use for the OS, nor the hw. (don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the exchanges from time-to-time)--makes you wanna go hmmm....... -- Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. Wm. (Soup) Jr.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:30:37 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101992330370001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > > Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the > > kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically > > implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. > > > > Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that > > Apple is improving, and this is very important. > > > > Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the > > only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) > > > > > > John Carmack > > Id Software | Jan 10 1999, 16:52:49 (PT) | johnc@idsoftware.com > > > > Post your comments on this plan at the bottom of the page, or view the 22 > > already available... > > > > > > > John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. You would do very well > to quit kissing up to his penis. The only pathological lair around is you > Steve, or whatever name you want ot use today. You have been exposed before, > only to climb from under the desk when Apple bashing (Not always > unjustified) is the soup of the day. In other words GET LOST!! Yup, their is one of the apple kissups having a little tantrum
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:33:45 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101992333460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- > > John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. You would do very well > > to quit kissing up to his penis. The only pathological lair around is you > > Steve, or whatever name you want ot use today. You have been exposed > before, > > only to climb from under the desk when Apple bashing (Not always > > unjustified) is the soup of the day. In other words GET LOST!! > > Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented > coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. > However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards > Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. His post was not puzzling at all, he is one of the fanatical apple penis suckers. Ya know, the type that take Apple imac benchmarks, and extrapolate that it would take a p2 700 to match the speed of a imac rev a :) God knows Apple really has its shit together, I am just taking the time to make fun of some of the pathetic penis kissers around here
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com> <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> <iVum2.8122$XY6.169376@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-1201990004240001@da227.ecr.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <rjCm2.8194$XY6.175089@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:22:43 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:53:11 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <tbrown-1201990004240001@da227.ecr.net> , tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: [snipped very long rant] > > Sorry, I think I might be ranting. I'm beginning to feel like Lawson > again. I'm beginning to understand a bit how he feels. :-( > > Ack! Yellow Finder! Yellow Finder! Ack! Ack! (I feel a bit better now.) Relax Ted my man, I agree with 98% of what you said. Your post was so long that I forgot what 2% of it I disagreed with. Whew.........Read this article in MacOpinion [ http://www.macopinion.com/columns/utopia/jan99/up-43.html] by John Martellaro. He addresses some of the issues you laid out in your essay.....err I mean post. Later, and take a chill pill man. whew...... :-)) -- Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. -- Those who are possessed by nothing possess everything. 'The Art of Peace' Soup Jr.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:53:54 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <neko-1101991625500001@mty5-35.dip.mbay.net> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101992353580001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <neko-1101991625500001@mty5-35.dip.mbay.net>, neko@mbay.net (neko) wrote: > you're inferior, because <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com>, "Jason Sims" > <SPAMjason@SUCKSmacvertigo.com> wrote: > > |Bytemarks are only one type of benchmark testing, and quite frankly the > |whole benchmarking thing is a pretty flaky scene - there is always > |controversy over what tests do/do not reflect real-world performance, etc. > |etc. Everyone seems to take a different side on the issue and I have yet to > |see a definitive resolution to these arguments. A) spec is a very good benchmark. b) byte CAN be a very good benchmark too, if it isnt intentionally screwed up like it was. Use codewarrior for both platforms, and pentium opt for the pc and ppc opt for the g3, and the results will be very reliable
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:36:06 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101992336060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > I'm sure that many people we will never hear about write some of the best > code being written. OS and game development are high profile. I would stand > by my statement, given that the man invented the genre that only he raises > the bar on every 18 or so months. True, but in this veign I think the writters at Bungie would be on this list as well
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:41:05 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101992341050001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > I admit that I did over react to Steve's Sullivan's post. This is because he > only posts when there is a chance to bash Apple . Also he has been exposed > as posting under different names This is incredibly smelly crap posted by you. I have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS used the same email address, macghod@concentric.net. I have never ever changed. And you are LIEING when you say otherwise. And the only reason you claim I only bash Apple is because you are a very defensive sucker of steve jobs penis. That is why you get so upset, when others have already noted I was anything but bashing Apple.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:51:24 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369A4990.A24@kan.org> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1101992351240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <369A4990.A24@kan.org>, steven@kan.org wrote: > Every criticism he made in his .plan file is valid, but that doesn't > invalidate his endorsement of the product. In fact, despite the clunky > innards that still exist within the OS, the newest Mac systems are "near > the head of the pack," and will improve as the OS improves. Carmack long > has been a fan of OpenStep (sp?), and this is the first step toward what > I fully expect will be a very fruitful relationship between Apple and > id. Yes, the qualms he gave were entirely right, and that is what is going to make the Apple kissups cry. These are the people that post (check dejanews) (in effect) that " a p2 would have to run at 700 mhz to be as fast as a imac rev a" And while I dont have the original post in front of me, I am sure you will see that I see many beneficial things from it. Performance wise, I do not think gamers could ask for anything more. I will even go farther, say someone like pc's and windows equally, and all the games they play are available for both the pc and the mac. Further say someone else will buy ANY computer for them, be it pc or a mac. I would see no reason not to go for the g3 400.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5EwHr.AJC@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com Organization: needs one References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:20:15 GMT In <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: >> Sure it applies to Linux. The premise of the Mythical Man Month is > that if you have 100 people working on a project, and add another 100 > people, it won't get done twice as fast, it might even take longer. That is NOT the premise of the book! Sheesh! The premise is that if you think a job needs 100 and then get half way through the schedule and see you're 1/4 of the way, you can't say "oh, we needed 400 people after all", hire 300 more and expect that to work. The training time of those new people will push the schedule back even more. The premise is that there is very little you can do to a late schedule other than let it be late, or cut features or stability. Maury
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> Message-ID: <vvDm2.3852$xq4.979@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:14:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:14:19 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> Russ Taylor wrote:- > RSTS. I love it when people with 2-3 OS's under their belts try to talk > about "bad" OS's :)- OPENSTEP, FreeBSD, Linux, DEC OSF/1, OpenBSD, Solaris, Windows NT, QNX are operating systems I run or have run and am capable of administering. If that's two or three to you then apparently macs have shitty integer as well as floating point performance. Anyway, this shouldn't be about how many os'es either of us are capable of administering, I'm sure the group could care less, and instead of cross posting to a dozen groups maybe you should trim your responses down to the ones that are relevant.
From: sean timothy willis <stwillis@students.uiuc.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: A reasonably intelligent article... Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:34:45 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Message-ID: <77dn95$g8h$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> IN reading the followups to the recent MacWorld Expo, I came across a pretty good article from John Martellaro. It discusses the strategy possibilties coming out of Apple with regards to MOSXS, and even mentions "pissed off" Yellow Box developers in a kind light. You might want to take a look: http://www.macopinion.com/columns/utopia/jan99/up-43.html sean
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <macghod-1101992333460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <YzDm2.8237$XY6.175533@news.san.rr.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:19:04 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:19:04 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <macghod-1101992333460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> , macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > In article <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com > (Michael Lankton) wrote: > >> In <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- >> > John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. You would do very well >> > to quit kissing up to his penis. The only pathological lair around is you >> > Steve, or whatever name you want ot use today. You have been exposed >> before, >> > only to climb from under the desk when Apple bashing (Not always >> > unjustified) is the soup of the day. In other words GET LOST!! >> >> Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented >> coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. >> However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards >> Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. > > His post was not puzzling at all, he is one of the fanatical apple penis > suckers. > Ya know, the type that take Apple imac benchmarks, and extrapolate that it > would take a p2 700 to match the speed of a imac rev a :) > > God knows Apple really has its shit together, I am just taking the time to > make fun of some of the pathetic penis kissers around here > The only puzzling thing is that he not hip to your act. I took the bait, and I do regret reacting to your childish terms like "penis kissers". Grow up Steve and act your age. Maybe that's just what you're doing. Real nice to hide behind your keyboard and sling teenage crap around. What a life you have. Post to newsgroups, never offering anything constructive, just hit and run. Hiding until the next big thing hits the fan, so that you can come out to say APPLE SUCKS HA! HA! and I'm Cool!! Just looking for a place to be somebody I guess. Cross-posting, penis baiting, and apple bashing. Sounds like a full-time job to me. Like I told someone else, take a couple of chill pills and do something more constructive with your time. You can't be all bad. -- Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. Wm. (Soup) Jr.
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:38:30 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn79koa4.urj.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77b76a$qft$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <slrn79j0ir.r1p.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <77cobt$86k$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:38:30 GMT Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote: :SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote: :>:Apple can talk out its $ss that YB is here to stay. I suspect secretely :>:they have been working very hard to convert to Java. :> :>It hasn't been a secret. :> :>Objective-C being replaced by the Java langauge has been ongoing for a :>while. :> :>They want two good development platforms, Carbon, and Java, the latter :>branched into Sun libraries and Yellow libraries. : :>Yellow Box with Java is nearly the same as YB with O-C. : :I could live with that. I wouldn't be happy to lose categories and :forwarding, but I could live with that. Hey, we survived being forced :into Intel machines as hardware platforms, remember? : :If, however, they are stupid enough to plan on basing their Java :extension on Carbon - which I doubt - it would really be time to :worry. And dump Apple stock. Maybe look for a job as a carpenter. : :statically bound language, -> "Taligent desaster" No kidding. However, Apple employees demonstrated what sure looked like YB programs on Rhapsody developer releases, which they claimed were written in Java. Since Carbon didn't exist at that time (officially) it seems very likely they are doing what is sensible. As a language, Java is a close enough replacement, in semantic terms, to Objective-C and good enough to represent YB concepts. On some things it's clunkier than the full dynamism of Objective-C, but on others it's better, e.g. garbage collection. And Java is growing standard introspection and serialization API's so you're probably not going to lose much over Objective-C now. C++ wasn't and isn't good enough. In buzzword and hype compliance Java wins, of course. Saying you are going to program in a mid-80's language which lost the war against C++ is a tougher sell than saying you will be using ''Java'', the rest being details. Keep in mind that it's an imperative that Apple have a good House Java (the 'regular stuff' vs the 'coffee of the day') implementation as well, and they know that. Grafting YB to something-which-must-live is good for YB's future, not bad. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 12 Jan 1999 02:59:17 -0600 Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1 Message-ID: <77f2t6$93n@newsops.execpc.com> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> Sam (sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com) wrote: : Since you are a dumb American who calls national tournaments World : Series I will take that into consideration The "World Series" is not a national tournament. The leagues which compete contain teams from Canada. Granted that's not enough to call it a "world" series in my book either. -- Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Games, games, games! Message-ID: <petrich-1201990249030001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:45:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:45:37 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca>, jwct@magma.ca (J.W. Corey Tamas) wrote: > In article <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, > petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote: > > In article <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net>, > > m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen) wrote: > > > I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games > > > and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. > > Sorry, but there's a big market for games, and making lots of games > > available for the MacOS helps sell more Macs... > And may I also add that you're really in the wrong newsgroup to make your > point heard. It may seem self-evident to many of the readers of these newsgroups that it's good to have games on the MacOS, but to some, it is not, such as the unfortunate Mr. Cohen. I'm not even sure that he knows what he's missing. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <7Yzm2.8158$XY6.173090@news.san.rr.com> <aQAm2.3830$xq4.974@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <nOEm2.8248$XY6.176141@news.san.rr.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:42:43 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:42:43 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <aQAm2.3830$xq4.974@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> , satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: [snip] > Superior because they can walk into any Best Buy, CompUSA, or >> > Software Etc and choose from a vast library of software knowing that it > will >> > run on their system at home, and it may even be simple enough for them to >> > actually use. From a consumer stand point, windows is king- > > Re-read this response, you obviously didn't get it the first time. I am not > a windows advocate. I do appreciate windows as a gaming platform, and I'm > not going to spite myself by not running good games because I don't like the > operating system. I got it Michael, I was only pulling your leg a little bit there. :-) You do have a leg don't you Mike? -- Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile. -Einstein- soup jr. country liv'n wcampbel@san.rr.com
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Worst Operating Systems? Message-ID: <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:05:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:05:04 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net>, rtaylor@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) wrote: > In article <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com > (Michael Lankton) wrote: > >Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented > >coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. > >However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards > >Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. I wonder what makes the MacOS so terrible -- I'm not saying that there isn't any justification; I'm just wondering. > No, that award would go to CMS -- IBM's lovely mainframe operating > system. Other competitors for the "worst OS crown" could well be AIX and > RSTS. I love it when people with 2-3 OS's under their belts try to talk > about "bad" OS's :) And why would CMS, AIX, and RSTS be so bad? I remember CMS; it was rather perverted in some ways, but I think I'd prefer it to Windoze. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <petrich-1201990319080001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <petrich-1101991916040001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <MHzm2.975$wm2.3545555@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:15:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:15:41 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <MHzm2.975$wm2.3545555@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> wrote: > You honestly cannot compair Marathon to Half-Life they are years apart... In some ways, yes. True 3D vs. extruded 2D; skeletal modeling vs. sprites; ... [Me:] > > And Bungie's Marathon series does terminal messages *really* well -- > >Unreal's look so feeble by comparison. But does Half-Life have anything like this? -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com> <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <iVum2.8122$XY6.169376@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:27:24 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:27:26 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> , tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: > Where's the serial port on a G3 Pro? All those musicians are really happy > right now. Waiting for a USB-MIDI (which ain't here yet and I'm puzzled > by the lack of mention of Yamaha's mLan). If I don't buy a modem in the > box, how do I connect to the internet (no cable modems here)? Where do I > get the modem? I think dongles and all other devices work on the USB-ADB > box (~$40), but not all serial devices work on a USB-Serial. So, why an > ADB port and not a serial port? I can understand this a bit, as the > USB-ADB devices prob. weren't done soon enough to allow Apple to risk not > having ADB. Maybe the USB-Serial work seemed to be farther along? And > there's always a PCI Serial card, but that won't bode well with customers > who already think the Pro has too few PCI slots. What'd be the cost of > adding a serial port(s)? The future is in industry standards; Firewire,USB,etc. Of course at a added cost, you can hook up your present devices. >And, why no Firewire in an iMac? Why have Apple officials stated, "There >won't be FireWire in an iMac"? I didn't think the FW chips cost that >much (and must be dropping as Apple needs them in volume for the G3 Pro). >I'm not surprised that the Rev C version doesn't have them, but am a bit >surprised to find that there's no plans at all. It is after all a >'consumer Mac' and Firewire is going to be in consumer products. The iMac is for people like my wife and the grandmothers of the world. They don't need or want Firewire. They want to do word processing, the net and email. Firewire is for you and me, so don't buy an iMac. >It takes _zero_ effort to simply not talk about getting rid of Obj-c, or >to plan it's demise. Minimal effort to ensure that it stays around for a >long time to come actually. Why piss off your developers? Instead, spend >the time talking about how Yellow will be this primo Java development >environment. Again Apple has an eye on the future, and right now in the industry Java is prominent in that future. They could be wrong, but we will have to wait and see. >Maybe I would have >if Apple was focusing ahead instead of on what they can needlessly kill. >At the very least, it would have reduced some of the noise, and we'd have >gotten more signal from MacWorld. Positive forward thinking instead of a >rolling black cloud. What nimwit thought that up at Apple? Exactly what have the "needlessly killed" in the last 2 years that has put the company on the brink of disaster? What have they "needlessly killed" that you can't live without? I'm not saying that every decision is the correct decision, but this hand has hardly been played out just yet. I don't think the scorecard can be truly tallied up for another year or two. -- Those who are possessed by nothing possess everything. Morihei Ueshiba-'The Art of Peace' Soup Jr.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:28:09 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <kcobb-1101991956550001@cs40-208.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991919590001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1201990028100001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <petrich-1101991919590001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote: > > I can agree that the MacOS's event model is not all that great -- > having to do event dispatching by hand instead of (say) attaching > callbacks to user-interface widgets like windows and buttons (E-Z to do > with inheritance). I wonder if macos classic api's will get the event model of the yellow box, like interface builder. Good lord is that a dream to use!! It is a hundred times better than the macos api's <myth group deleted, please dont post this thread to their anymore>
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 00:03:07 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77e3fr$ifp$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <77dr2j$pep$1@plo.sierra.com> In article <77dr2j$pep$1@plo.sierra.com>, Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: >>_require_ 270MB RAM... I ran it quite nicely with a partition of about >95MB, >>with all the spiff options turned on. > >Did you play through every level? Some levels require more ram than others. Yes. I finished it over a mind-numbing 4-day weekend... I didn't have to fiddle with the RAM too much. Once I bumped it up from 80-something to 95MB (at Noork's Elbow... big surprise there.), it ran fine for the rest of the game. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:49:32 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1201990649320001@elk34.dol.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> In article <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net>, tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: > In article <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com>, > scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > > >The only problem I have with such a notion is that all the reasons for > >not shipping MacOS X Server/Intel apply equally well to MacOS X of any > >stripe running on Merced. Furthermore, with a couple years of MacOS X > >Server/Intel under their belt, Apple would be in a position to rollout > >more-or-less immediately on Merced, by first targetting the x86 > >emulation and converting over to the EPIC side of things as time > >permits. [All indications are that Merced's EPIC won't be much if any > >faster than Merced's x86 - in contrast to McKinley, where EPIC is > >supposed to be much faster.] > > It could be that Apple's making a bad gamble. It's trying to make a big > splash at once rather than a slow entrace. MS doesn't have the best track > record of tranitioning to new Intel chips. The 386 was a 32 bit chip and > the Pentium Pro tanked for Win 95 because it had too much 16 bit code. > > If MS does the same for Merced/McKinley, then a pure EPIC Mac OS could run > significantly better on the same hw than Windows. Worse, Windows > developers have the same problem. Their programs will run well on Merced, > why should they waste a bunch of effort making them fully EPIC? > > OTH, if Apple transitions OS X1 as fully EPIC with a fully EPIC Carbon & > YB, Apple developers will have to create fully EPIC apps. Futhermore, > Connectix could produce a kickin' version of Virtual PC that ran Windows > 2000 & apps under OS X1 about as fast as the same hw would natively. > Thus by buying the 'safe hw', Merced/McKinley & Windows 2000, a user could > spend $200 (OS X1 & Virtual PC), and run all the same apps at the same > speed. Yet, if they upgrade their apps to OS X1 apps instead of Windows > 2000 apps, they'll get a big speed boost. [snip] You may be right, but I doubt it. It looks like Apple is giving up Mac OS for Intel -- probably for ever. It's a stupid move, if so. They have the potential to pick up a significant amount of market share with Mac OS X Server for Intel and I don't see them cannibalizing Mac hardware sales. Oh, well, you can't expect them to get _everything_ right. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
From: flat@flat.net (fLAt anTAgonISt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:02:37 -0400 Organization: flat Message-ID: <flat-1101991902370001@pm6-89.orf.infi.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> In article <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1>, info@comicdb.com (Comic Book Database) wrote: >> >> Steve's comments are accurate, John Carmack is one of the most talented >> coders on the planet, and Mac OS still is the worst operating system ever. >> However, regarding Steve's post, I think he was being quite generous towards >> Apple, which makes your reaction even more puzzling. > >Why is the worst? Justify that statement. I've used Windows and MacOS, I >would really like to hear your take on it. It's really easy to just say >something sucks. Prove it or get lost. > >Lewis The Mac OS is the worst operating system ever because it took Microslop "technology" (*marketing* technology) 10X the resources to shoddily and inefficiently imitate it.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:25:11 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 01:33:29 GMT Josh Brandt wrote in message <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net>... > >Unreal had just as good of game-play as Half-Life, though. The only thing is >that it came later and the hype is fresher in your mind. Half-Life has people that talk to you, instead of Unreal's text messages all over the place. It's much more interesting when the people walk and talk.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 12 Jan 1999 11:53:55 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <77fd4j$l4o$3@hecate.umd.edu> adam baker (libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE) wrote: : > In <libra-1101992140040001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> adam baker wrote: : > > Pardon me, what's 'EPIC'?- : > : > IIRC the forthcoming 64 bit intel cpu is really a hybrid of RISC and CISC : > design. Feel free to correct me if that is incorrect. : Sounds interesting--a hybrid in what way? For what purpose (backward : compatibility?) EPIC stands for Explicitly Parallel Instruction (Set) Computing. In modern micrprocessor, the assembly instructions are assumed to be serial, then the processor tries very hard to execute them in parallel, down parallel pipelines. EPIC tries to define a new model, in which the assembly instructions are explicitly arranged by an intelligent compiler in a parallel fashion, so the hardware does not have to work so hard to extract the parallelism. It may be said that "RISC" is an attempt to remove complexity from the hardware to the software, compared to "CISC". However, with superpipelining, superscaler implementations of even 10 year old Instruction sets, modern microprocessors are far from simplified. If you look at the die photo of any modern micro, you'll see lots of area devoted to caches, branch predictors, instruction schedulers, etc, and perhaps not as much room for execution units, which is basically what a processor should do, add and subtract numbers. EPIC is yet another attempt to remove complexity from hardware, and it will require the compiler to be more "intelligent" than ever to be able to take full advantage of its performance potential. Merced is the first implementation of the "EPIC" instruction set architecture. It is being designed by Intel, and is supposed to be taped out by Q3 of this year. Volume production, however, will not start until sometime next year. Merced apparently also contains hardware to execute x86 instructions "natively", instead of via software simulation. However, that hardware assisted emulation is only expected to match today's high end Pentium II processors, not the fastest x86 processor at the time of its release. EPIC does not specify x86 compatibility, its just that Intel had designed this chip to be a transistion chip, so you should be able to run x86 binaries, PA-RISC binaries (Hewlett Packard co-designed the Instruction Set), and EPIC native binaries. Personally, I am guessing that Merced's sucessor will ditch the hardware assisted x86 binary execution, and use the transistor budget instead for other purposes, but that's just a guess. : Thanks, : adam : -- : Canada? That godforsaken place where they can't make up their mind on : the proper langage, and where someone on skates is a potential murder : victim and they call that a sport? : /cs-gg -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:17:33 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <spagiola@my-dejanews.com> wrote: > DC <dhba701@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> wrote: > > I'll read the article. However, I don't get what everyone is bitching > > about. LOOK AT WHAT YOU GET!!!!!! Geez, folks!! UNLIMITED user license? > > BUNDLED WEB OBJECTS (more than $1,000 retail)?? APACHE??? A Windows NT > > Server 4.0 with ***10-user license*** costs that much!! > > As I've written before, the price is fine for those who need a server. For > those who don't need WebObjects, Apache, Appleshare, etc, the price is > ludicrous. > > > I may be missing > > some issues, but you people need to realize that, for an ENTERPRISE > > APPLICATION (this ISN'T for the general user, guys!), > > WRONG. This potentially could very much be for end-users. Maybe not your > average Joe iMac buyer, but certainly for the kind of people who use NT > workstation, OS X Server would be an excellent platform. Indeed, some of us > (eg me) have been using OS X Server's predecessor (NeXTSTEP) in exactly this > way for the better part of a decade, now. > > > the price/feature > > set for OS X Server is pretty damn good! Hell, the unlimited license > > option is worth it in itself. Know how much a 250-user license for > > NetWare 5.0 is? $12,495. Win NT? $9,000. > > Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for anyone bitching about the price. As > > far as I am concerned, OS X Server is a STEAL. > > Again, for use as a server, you're right. But not everybody is wanting to use > this puppy as a server. > > And as far as the developers go, it does them little good for Apple to sell a > couple of dozen, or even hundred, of OS X Server copies as pure servers. > People aren't going to run shrink-wrap apps off of servers, so their market > would be crippled. If there were a "workstation" version of OSX Server, on > the other hand, without WebObjects etc, at a price competitive with WNT > workstation, their market would be substantially larger. I, for one, would be > in the market for pretty much every single YB app available. > > Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, > reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read > http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html > > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a Server. The end user OS will be out shortly.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:56:55 -0600 From: kcobb@austin.rr.com (Ken Cobb) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <kcobb-1101991956550001@cs40-208.austin.rr.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: Westlake Interactive, Inc. Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy In article <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) wrote: > -tomlinson (I assume that Carmack meant, by "interfaces", programmer's > interfaces and not user interfaces.) Oh, I thought he was talking about user interfaces. I would tend to agree with him, then, if he was talking about programming API's. The Mac is rather aged and inconsistent in that area. On the other hand, I think Microsoft's COM objects are some of the most hideous things ever devised. -- Ken Cobb Westlake Interactive
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:45:39 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1101991645390001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> In article <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. Er, no. He actually prefers Unix and particularly Nextstep (ahem, MacOS X Server...) over Wintel in many ways, but for various resons NT has become his preferred development platform in the last few years (probably better availability of tools more than anything). In the early years of course he was primarily an Apple II programmer. -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:25:44 +1100 Organization: OzEmail Ltd. Message-ID: <77ff2v$ag8$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> Michael wrote: >Forrest Cameranesi wrote: >> "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> wrote: >> >> >Apple could make a clean Intel computer with Firewire, >> >USB, Rage 128, 100-base-T, a similar PCI setup & standard PC >> >memory (no serial ports, parallel, keyboard, PS/2 etc). >> >> Yes, exactly! Basically a Mac, but with an x86 processor. Users buying >> new Macs could choose slightly cheaper and less powerfull, or slightly >> faster and more expensive. I agree with another reply about the price differences in Intel and PPC being a problem. What happens if Apple constructs an Intel PC with the same cost and profit as one of their G3s - but IBM, Compaq & Dell have similar PCs for 2/3 the price? The only thing I can think of is selling MOSX with it - but it would have to have lots of Apps - ie Carbon. >All our predictions and suggestions notwithstanding, Apple is almost >certainly way ahead of us on this issue. They are almost certainly unhappy >that the PowerPC chip hasn't outrun the Intel chips as much as was promised >and with the new generation of Intel processors coming along they are >almost certainly building prototype Macs with those (and other processors) >deep within the bowels of Apple. Time to market on these could probably be >very short. Intel is the key to Apple becoming mainstream IMO. Apple can't produce enough computers by itself to gain a large marketshare. And if they can't make a competitive Intel machine then it must reflect badly on their PPC processes too - so _force_ it to be fixed. <snip> >I have come to believe that Apple will ship Intel boxes, not according to >our agenda, but according to it's agenda, probably when MacOSX comes >out and with MacOSX and probably Windows 2000 pre-installed. As long as their hardware is competitive, I agree they should offer both MOSX and Windows (including YB & Quicktime of course) SGI's new Intel box is interesting. It is built based on SGI's strengths and seems to set a new, higher standard for Intel machines. http://www.it.fairfax.com.au/990112/industry/industry3.html (Aussie$2=US$1) Why did Apple make a deal with SGI as well as Conix for OpenGL? An Apple deal with SGI might be very interesting. They're a good candidate for bundling YB on WinNT, and putting YB on their high end MIPS. SGI would gain by keeping all new developments on both their platforms, Apple would gain by having high end graphics programs available on Mac. >They will sell enough of these, even to Windows folks for style reasons if >for no other, to prompt other Wintel vendors to ship hardware with MacOSX >installed, and the whole shape of PC computing could be transformed. Why would Apple selling Wintel boxes make other Wintel vendors ship MOSX? >Apple will vigourously deny any such plan until it happens and even if >rumours get out they will be considered too wild to be taken seriously, so >it will come as a complete surprise to the industry. Yes any Intel-Macintosh plan will not be leaked - it will suddenly happen. Hey, do the new G3s use Intel standard sized motherboards? Greg
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:53:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77fk46$r1l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <369A696F.BB12AD23@tone.ca> michael@tone.ca wrote: > ... If [OS X Server] does take off, they have this interim OS to kill when > MacOSX comes out. Think of the uproar then. Why should there be an uproar? Things that run on OS X Server should run on OS X as well. If individual apps can't make the DPS to EQD transition, that's presumably the developers' fault, not Apple, since that transition has been announced quite some time ago. Of course, there wouldn't be an OS X/Intel version, but again, people who buy OS X Server/Intel now ought to know that. I see no reason that there would be any kind of uproar. > If I was Apple I'd keep it > simple -- not officially release OSX Server as a client product, but let > copies slip out in enough ways to keep the YB developers off the streets. That would certainly be better than nothing. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:05:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77fkqk$rjp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ygcemp1a173.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) wrote: > The difficulty with mosxs is what happens to it in a year. With > Apple employees taking the trouble to spread the idea that mosx > will be very different from mosxs, one has to worry that whatever > technology is present in mosxs may be gone in a year. Will apps > made for mosxs have any hope of running on mosx? I have that > sinking feeling from all that has happened in the last week that > the answer may be no. The only major thing we know is going to change is Display PostScript giving way to Extended Quickdraw. Apps will have to adapt to that. I'm sure a variety of more minor things will change as well, and perhaps those alone might be sufficient to break some apps. Now, how would that affect my decisions right now if OS X Server was on sale at a reasonable price? I'd be sure to ask app vendors whether there would be an upgrade path, and on what terms, for the OSX version, when that ships. In other words, I would follow that well-tried maxim: caveat emptor. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:11:21 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77fl68$rq8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote: > What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a > Server. The end user OS will be out shortly. Ah, another person who thinks that the name you give to something is more important than what that something is, a proposition whose falsehood has been acknowledged since at least the 16th century: What's in a name? that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet; No matter what you call it, the OS formerly known as Rhapsody, aka OPENSTEP, aka NeXTSTEP makes a great workstation OS, and some of us have been using it as such for almost a decade. Besides, the "consumer" version of OSX is, realistically, a year away. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jayfar@netaxs.com (Jayfar) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:32:43 -0500 Organization: Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh Message-ID: <jayfar-1201990932440001@ppp184.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <jayfar-1101992307480001@ppp97.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> <libra-1201990819590001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> Mail-Copies-To: jayfar@netaxs.com In article <libra-1201990819590001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca>, libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) wrote: | > | Apple was always fine. There's never been impending death for that | > | company. They are sitting on massive talent and mounds of cash. They've | > | been involved in tons of projects that went different directions: | > | Taligent, Versit, Newton, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, Star Trek, etc. gaining | > | a lot of useful experience at least. | > [snip] | | > Unfortunately, much of that useful experience has been shown the door and | > is now working for companies like MS and Netscape. | | Don't forget Palm. | | Actually I think more than most people think are working for small | startups of their own, or smaller companies altogether. Which have been or will be acquired by MS -- WebTV, for example. Problem with startups is that when their tech looks even a little bit promising they are bought by the highest bidder. That will often be MS, probably almost never Apple. That's what really worries me about Apple's cutbacks in R&D. Apple made statements last year that they will be relying more on third-parties for new technology. Cheers, Jayfar -- Jay Farrell Jayfar's Original Virtual Macintosh jayfar@netaxs.com * Your Favorite Mac Site * Now Updated Daily * Philadelphia, USA <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/live.desk.html> Jayfar's APPLE DOOMSDAY CLOCK <URL:http://www.netaxs.com/~jayfar/>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <6d7OO1tFpuR8@cc.usu.edu> From: root@127.0.0.1 Date: 11 Jan 99 23:03:24 MDT References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <1dlf01v.1bm9m151qvepeiN@[10.0.0.3]> <EO0m2.17763$kR5.23869@news.rdc1.ab.wave.home.com> <3698C8CF.DCE81C94@tone.ca> <rex-1001991505240001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.co m> <ygc3e5hiu8j.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77emjg$7s$4@news.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <77emjg$7s$4@news.panix.com> Sal Denaro wrote: > On 11 Jan 1999 10:39:56 -0700, > Dr. William V. Smith <smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu> wrote: > > Apple is now making a point (underground > >at least) of just "how" different mosxs and mosx are going to be. > >Planting the seeds for the end of Yellow? Not only Adobe, it seems that > >Gates and Co. were also negative on Yellow wrt Office updates. > >Obj C is gone. > > No it isn't. Apple is working to make Java a "first class" lang on OSX, they > aren't killin Obj-C. Wrong. If (or when) Apple succeeds in making Java their "first class" language, they will dump Obj-C.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <tbrown-1201990951360001@d204.ecr.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com> <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> <iVum2.8122$XY6.169376@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-1201990004240001@da227.ecr.net> <rjCm2.8194$XY6.175089@news.san.rr.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:51:35 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:52:19 CDT In article <rjCm2.8194$XY6.175089@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: >Relax Ted my man, I agree with 98% of what you said. Your post was so long >that I forgot what 2% of it I disagreed with. Whew.........Read this article >in MacOpinion [ http://www.macopinion.com/columns/utopia/jan99/up-43.html] >by John Martellaro. He addresses some of the issues you laid out in your >essay.....err I mean post. > >Later, and take a chill pill man. whew...... :-)) Er, I guess I tend to get a bit pendantic. Usually I save the world by bypassing the 'post' button, or by editing myself down. I've read the article, it did calm me down a bit...._before_ I wrote the post. Imagine the bytes slaughtered if I hadn't! :-) The main premise seems to be that it'll all pay off with OS X. Really be nice if Apple told us that. Instead we get weird message signals from Apple. Developer's are like the blind men trying to describe the elephant. Before the message seemed clearer, but the closer we get, the murkier the picture. #insert <rant.h> -- tbrown@netset.com
From: libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <libra-1201990817090001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <macghod-1201990020250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:15:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:15:42 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada > > > This is toTal bullashit > > No it's not; there's no way to test real-world performance because > > everyone does everything differently, and has a different setup and > > working style and speed, and so forth. Benchmarks or 'real-world tests' > > are useless in terms of a usability. <snip BYTE's mistakes> > I am making the results up, but it is exactly compararable, byte screwed > the opt's up, used ppc for the g3 but only 486 for the pc. They used > great compiler for the g3 but a lousy one for the pc. Regardless, no benchmarks are at all applicable or accurate for any purpose other than illogical and unfounded arguments. > > Raw computing power can be measured in microprocessors using SPECint and > > SPECfp, but there's really no point in comparing much else. I also have > > yet to see a definitive resolution to the benchmark argument. > > > Some FACTS: > > > before Apple found out how much byte screwed up the results g3 results in > > > Apple's favor, the only other benchmark apple used was photoshop, and they > > > used it, AND it said a g3 266 was only a piddly %30 faster than a p2 266 > > 1) Good for them. > > > > 2) 30% is hardly piddly. If something used to take 100 minutes, it now > > takes 70 minutes, maybe leaving you with less time for coffee or lunch ;-) > Thats lame, you obviously dont know that a p2 266 is about 1/3rd the cost > of a g3 266. You could buy 3 p2's, have each of the computers do one of > the 3 tasks, and thus have about 40 more minutes of break. What if you're doing one task? That's exactly why there can't be any rational solution or settlement to these issues; everyone has a very different environment in which they work. The price of a processor is unimportant; the cost of everything that the user needs isn't. There are many factors that play into the evaluation, purchase, and use of a computer system; benchmarks hardly tell the story. --adam -- Canada? That godforsaken place where they can't make up their mind on the proper langage, and where someone on skates is a potential murder victim and they call that a sport? /cs-gg
From: libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <libra-1201990818420001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <rtaylor-1101992227300001@alander.cmc.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:17:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:17:15 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada > >Raw computing power can be measured in microprocessors using SPECint and > >SPECfp, but there's really no point in comparing much else. I also have > >yet to see a definitive resolution to the benchmark argument. > > It actually can't. Keep in mind that Intel got some heat for rigging > their chips and compiler to perform better on the Spec (91? 93?) > benchmarks, when that performance did not relate to any real-world > results. They were hardly the only ones to do so. Spec95 is supposed to > be better, granted. Of course it's not real-world; but if you're using stock chips with the tests you can measure some performance. Since the chips use different instruction sets (particularly RISC vs. CISC) I wouldn't even call them entirely accurate. --adam -- Canada? That godforsaken place where they can't make up their mind on the proper langage, and where someone on skates is a potential murder victim and they call that a sport? /cs-gg
From: libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <libra-1201990819590001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> <jayfar-1101992307480001@ppp97.blackbox1-mfs.netaxs.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:18:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:18:32 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada > | Apple was always fine. There's never been impending death for that > | company. They are sitting on massive talent and mounds of cash. They've > | been involved in tons of projects that went different directions: > | Taligent, Versit, Newton, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, Star Trek, etc. gaining > | a lot of useful experience at least. > [snip] > Unfortunately, much of that useful experience has been shown the door and > is now working for companies like MS and Netscape. Don't forget Palm. Actually I think more than most people think are working for small startups of their own, or smaller companies altogether. --adam -- Canada? That godforsaken place where they can't make up their mind on the proper langage, and where someone on skates is a potential murder victim and they call that a sport? /cs-gg
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:16:22 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <sg.od.in-1201991016240001@10.1.11.128> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: I found his dissertation quite enlightening from a developer's point of view.. he presents his arguments clearly and without rancor, and while putting down certain aspects of the 'current state of things', has some *very * positive things to say about other aspects, and of their future growth direction.. He DID make the decision to now develop ON a Mac, did he not? It appears that Apple has made enough of the 'right decisions' to attract his efforts and business. Even as a Macintosh fan from all the way at the beginning (okay 1987 when I got my first mac) I have very little argument with what he is saying. My hat is off to you, Mr. Carmack, mostly for going to meet with Apple and beating them about the head and shoulders until they were enlightened :D <http://www.pcnet.com/~stenor/oracle/windoze.html#738-06> heh. I laud your efforts, sir and am eagerly looking forward to 'what's next' (no pun intended :D ) > Bellow is Carmack's .plan from after macworld. I can just see some of the > kissers of Apple's penis sobbing at some of the comments, basically > implying that Apple is a pathological liar for its bytemarks comments. On the other hand, Steve here is obnoxious and outright offensive. *PL0nK* > Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that > Apple is improving, and this is very important. > > Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the > only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) > > > John Carmack > Id Software | Jan 10 1999, 16:52:49 (PT) | johnc@idsoftware.com > > Post your comments on this plan at the bottom of the page, or view the 22 > already available... > > > > > > Name: John Carmack > Email: johnc@idsoftware.com > Description: Programmer > Project: Quake Arena > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > 1/10/99 > ------- > > Ok, many of you have probably heard that I spoke at the macworld > keynote on tuesday. Some information is probably going to get > distorted in the spinning and retelling, so here is an info > dump straight from me: [extended deletia] -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:20:25 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <macghod-1101991811060001@sdn-ar-001casbarp253.dialsprint.net> <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1201990020250001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> In article <libra-1101992204280001@h24-65-38-167.mt.wave.shaw.ca>, libra@shaw.wave.caELIMINATE (adam baker) wrote: > > > Bytemarks are only one type of benchmark testing, and quite frankly the > > > whole benchmarking thing is a pretty flaky scene - there is always > > > controversy over what tests do/do not reflect real-world performance, etc. > > > etc. Everyone seems to take a different side on the issue and I have yet to > > > see a definitive resolution to these arguments. > > > > This is toTal bullashit > > No it's not; there's no way to test real-world performance because > everyone does everything differently, and has a different setup and > working style and speed, and so forth. Benchmarks or 'real-world tests' > are useless in terms of a usability. A "GOOD" benchmark may have some limitations, but the bytemarks implemenation was NOT GOOD. Lets take a hypothetical: Pc world decides to test th g3 400 against a $1000 compaq celery 300 using bytemark For the g3, they use symantec's compiler, using 68 k optimizations. FOr the celery, they use IRC with p2 optimizations. HEADLINE: 300 mhz celery %5 faster than g3 400!! I am making the results up, but it is exactly compararable, byte screwed the opt's up, used ppc for the g3 but only 486 for the pc. They used great compiler for the g3 but a lousy one for the pc. > Raw computing power can be measured in microprocessors using SPECint and > SPECfp, but there's really no point in comparing much else. I also have > yet to see a definitive resolution to the benchmark argument. > > > Some FACTS: > > before Apple found out how much byte screwed up the results g3 results in > > Apple's favor, the only other benchmark apple used was photoshop, and they > > used it, AND it said a g3 266 was only a piddly %30 faster than a p2 266 > > 1) Good for them. > > 2) 30% is hardly piddly. If something used to take 100 minutes, it now > takes 70 minutes, maybe leaving you with less time for coffee or lunch ;-) Thats lame, you obviously dont know that a p2 266 is about 1/3rd the cost of a g3 266. You could buy 3 p2's, have each of the computers do one of the 3 tasks, and thus have about 40 more minutes of break. > > > >Of course the anti Apple people should see that Carmack does say that > > > >Apple is improving, and this is very important. > > > > Yes, Apple is improving, and has been for a long time. They've had a lot of > > > hurdles to jump over and are really not doing that badly overall, > > > considering the difficulties they've faced BESIDES figuring out a way to > > > replace an aging OS without alienating what's left of their userbase. > > Apple was always fine. There's never been impending death for that > company. They are sitting on massive talent and mounds of cash. They've > been involved in tons of projects that went different directions: > Taligent, Versit, Newton, Pink, Copland, OpenDoc, Star Trek, etc. gaining > a lot of useful experience at least. > > The major players in the PC industry are all doing the same thing. Apple > has been singled out because of its incredible rise to the top and > subsequent reduction in market share and profits. Apple hasn't always > bowed to the wishes of the masses, or even of the not-masses (game > developers) and despite the logic of those decisions to many individuals, > the company hasn't 'gotten worse' and had a need to 'improve'.
#################################################################### From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 00:04:12 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77e3hs$2qr$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> In article <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com>, William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: >John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. You would do very well >to quit kissing up to his penis. The only pathological lair around is you >Steve, or whatever name you want ot use today. You have been exposed before, >only to climb from under the desk when Apple bashing (Not always >unjustified) is the soup of the day. In other words GET LOST!! Um, you're acting like kind of a luser, and are only making yourself look like a dink. Think before you post. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net ding was kind of a let-down, although it did make for a good light-show... Unreal had just as good of game-play as Half-Life, though. The only thing is that it came later and the hype is fresher in your mind. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! From: m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen) Message-ID: <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:21:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:21:36 EST Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote: > I've created some homemade benchmarks, and those with a small memory > footprint roughly agree with Bytemarks. > > ... I agree that the statically allocated memory > > partition is the #1 thing that needs to go. In Unreal, it was probably > > the main source of problems for users. > > That's my experience also -- I had to turn on virtual memory to get > through some parts of the game. Very late in the game, when you've shut > down the Skaarj ship's power, I had to up my partition size to 270 > megabytes to avoid crashing. I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. I'd rather see more useful software. -- Mike Cohen - m_cohen (at) usa (dot) net - http://pobox.com/~mec Sound is the same for all the world - Youssou N'dour, "Eyes Open"
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> Message-ID: <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:28:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:28:28 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- > The only question is, does it get the job done. The MacOS does and will do > so even better, when the MacOSX hits the streets. Right now MacOS X Server > can stand up to any OS currently on the market.- 1. Until mosxs proves that it is as stable and robust as any *BSD or SVR4 based unix I would be afraid to pitch it to management as my choice to trust our corporations mission-critical operations to. 2. Mosxs has no smp. How many ppc's does it take to replace one multi-processor sparc or sgi box? Sheesh, even windows nt has smp. >Are we talking operating systems here or hardware? MacOS 8.5 vs. Win98, no >contest. Mac wins hands down. Mac hardware vs. intel boxes, Mac wins again, >hands down. Why are you telling me this? I'm not a windows user, with the exception of a 2 gig partition I have strictly for gaming. Macos, windows, your face, your ass, what's the difference? Tell me how macos is superior to unix, then I'll argue with you.
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:00:01 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:57:27 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne I have been patching Unreal at the hope of playing it someday but am still waiting now even after MANY many months. I got Half-Life, loaded it and was playing Online in 10 minutes.... I still cannot have a good game of Unreal online... and I have 2 cable modems! Bill F. Josh Brandt <mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in message news:77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net... >Unreal had just as good of game-play as Half-Life, though. The only thing is >that it came later and the hype is fresher in your mind. > >Josh >-- > ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads > J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: "Dave Glue" <dglue@home.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <MPG.1104254f42f719b2989845@news.itg.ti.com> <see-below-1101991659100001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <HYzm2.81$Nc2.2781@news.rdc1.on.home.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:12:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:12:23 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Dohnut wrote in message ... >Yup. On Windows they didn't have to worry about it, other than complaining >about very slow response and lots of disk swapping on systems with 64MB or >less of RAM... So you're saying the Mac "method" - of crashing and losing your game, is preferable?
From: Look@my.sig (Adrian Turkington) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:02 -0500 Organization: The Deep, Dark Abyss Message-ID: <Look-1101992252020001@ppp45.philly.pil.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <4wtm2.3755$xq4.854@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <4wtm2.3755$xq4.854@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: :In <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:- :> It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks.- : :I don't know which cave you've been living in for the last two years, but :modern 3d games need to do a lot of floating point calculations and move a :lot of textures. Just because you don't enjoy games, don't assume that the :rest of us will be content with BSD tetris for the rest of our lives. Games :are the flashiest and most demanding of applications, of course they require :more resources than a word processor or spreadsheet. I think he was just expressing his opinion about games that take up more resources than he's willing to put into just to get the game to run with all the bells and whistles. Chill out man he likes his tetris! :) I do to ;P -- ----------------------------------------------------------- "All great wisdom is found in Email Signatures." --Adrian Turkington e-mail: hellfire@pil.net
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 12 Jan 1999 04:03:30 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Message-ID: <77ehii$10n$1@hole.sdsu.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <petrich-1101991916040001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <MHzm2.975$wm2.3545555@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> Bill Frisbee (bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com) wrote: : You honestly cannot compair Marathon to Half-Life they are years apart... This may come as something of a surprise, but certain game-techniques don't change that much in years or decades. There's more to the experience than pretty graphics, you know. -tomlinson -- Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University ------------------------------------------------ "Holly? look down there. Would you really feel any pity if one of those _dots_ stopped moving forever? If I said you could have twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stops, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare?"
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <petrich-1101991916040001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <MHzm2.975$wm2.3545555@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:56:54 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:54:20 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne You honestly cannot compair Marathon to Half-Life they are years apart... Bill F. Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote in message news:petrich-1101991916040001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com... >In article <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >> Half-Life has people that talk to you, instead of Unreal's text messages all >> over the place. It's much more interesting when the people walk and talk. > > However, writing has the nice feature of being persistent. > > And Bungie's Marathon series does terminal messages *really* well -- >Unreal's look so feeble by comparison. > >-- >Loren Petrich >petrich@netcom.com >Happiness is a fast Macintosh >And a fast train
From: "Jeaux" <jeauxblo@mindspring.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:09:11 -0600 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> Wanted: a stable O/S for Intel oriented computers which will obselete the Microsoft Abominations. [End User License Agreement: By opening this message you show your agreement to spend the rest of your life vigorously opposing the oppressive Microsoft marketing philosophy.] The instability of Windows Operating System, and the inability of the operator to re-install major portions of the O/S without re-installing the entire O/S, maintains an ever-present menace to periodically flush out information, indescribably important to the user. Backups are no solution in a market which produces ever-increasing hard drive capacities when Microsoft maintains perpetually expanding products which render the new capacities little more helpful than the older smaller drives. Microsoft will not include proper correctional procedures as to allow the operator to correct the notorious anomalies which are guaranteed to crop up in the O/S, without phone contact to Redmond Washington. Neither the demur manual, NOR the on-line Help avails the correctional procedure to the Operator. For example, trying to look up the word reinstall in the help window yields no solution to reinstall some component of the O/S. There is the option of calling Microsoft help personnel and paying long-distance phone charges to have them direct the operator through the esoteric steps of addressing the pertinent cabinet files, but this increases the price of Windows from $89.00 retail, to something on the order of $300.00 to $600.00 per year, to keep the O/S in its normal unstable operability. Microsoft offers no 800 or toll-free numbers for help. Microsoft is such an oppressively wealthy company that it is publicly contemptuous for them to fail to offer toll-free technical support as do much smaller vendors who are much less able to afford this overhead. There should be an investigation to determine any collusion between Gates or Microsoft and Telecommuications Companies. For Bill Gates to have $65 Billion (not a current figure) taken from customers for the shoddy unservicable products he has sold should be legally defined as theft. Gates wealth if properly distributed could more purposely provide the new Apple IMAC computer to 65 million individuals. Apple Computers with their more conscientious marketing philosophy would more ethically deserve the business. The Microsoft product upgrade procedure follows a successful formula of releasing a shoddy, unreliable, unstable product, generating profound sums of capital wealth, followed by a corrective upgrade, equally lucrative, which, although it may fix some former problems, includes so much new feature content (which will require an equally lucrative future corrective upgrade) with commensurate shoddiness and instability, that the use of Microsoft Software is a pattern of upgrading from one instability to another, ostensibly for the purpose of perpetually genereating regeneratively snowballing Income. Microsoft products are not ingenious. They are normally complex application softwares which are made more complex through the inclusion of protective devices which insure the company and its founder that it will not miss a penny. Microsoft is obviously and definitively taking advantage of a market allegiance which exists for no other reason than that it has always released software prematurely for the purpose of getting to market ahead of competition. There cannot be the option of buying a shoddy product first, and then improving with the advent of competitors software, due to the high price of software, and the education curve of switching. What is reliable in Microsofts products is the guarantee that you will spend more time wiping them than you will spend in the toilet during your lifetime. Tens of millions of users, perhaps hundreds, lose hundreds of man-hours each year compensating for Microsofts marketing philosophy. Bill Gates has visited more trouble on mankind in 20 years than millenia of efforts by any villains, mythical or otherwise, such as Satan, Lucifer, Beetle Juice, or Ron Hubbard. One can only hope that Gates damnation of humanity will not be eternal. Like so many other consumers, I have spent a hellfire of time compensating for a greedy marketing philosophy, oppressive of competition. Multiply this by the hundreds of millions of computers in existence to comprehend the extent of the inferno. David Alexander Cc: Earth -- jeauxblo@mindspring.com alec.net@juno.com
From: neko@mbay.net (neko) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:47:49 -0800 Organization: the society to ban capital letters Message-ID: <neko-1201991047490001@mty4-192.dip.mbay.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <macghod-1101992333460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net> you're inferior, because <macghod-1101992333460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp207.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: |His post was not puzzling at all, he is one of the fanatical apple penis |suckers. |Ya know, the type that take Apple imac benchmarks, and extrapolate that it |would take a p2 700 to match the speed of a imac rev a :) | |God knows Apple really has its shit together, I am just taking the time to |make fun of some of the pathetic penis kissers around here personally i think you just like the word 'penis' for some reason. maybe it's just me. -- -- neko *meow* 'capital letters were always the best way to deal with things you don't have a good answer for.' -- douglas adams
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:45:32 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <alex-1201991245320001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77dudg$ed7@shelob.afs.com> Organization: Web IS Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy In article <77dudg$ed7@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >Oh, so *you're* the guy. 8^) > >Greg Actually, I think I would be too...though the good news is I will be getting MacOSX Server, so...any body want to send me some demo apps in a month? I'll even pay $10 for a demo CD with all the apps on it. -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: mrjones@mindspring.com (Mark Haase) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:42:08 -0500 Organization: WEBeam Message-ID: <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> .GXUfmK'b9gDZEBv|@A&qq5kF6KH~L-)}IJxCV{o|87_lT8VRRVF$ In article <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net>, rtaylor@cmc.net (Russ Taylor) wrote: > In article <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > > >I'm sure that many people we will never hear about write some of the best > >code being written. OS and game development are high profile. I would stand > >by my statement, given that the man invented the genre that only he raises > >the bar on every 18 or so months. > > Hmm, that explains why Pathways into Darkness innovated the RT-3D plot, > and Marathon the RT-3D physics model. Id's games are, for want of a > better phrase, lame. Agreed. Yes, Doom beat Marathon to market, by not by much, and they were in different markets. Marathon beat the crap out of Doom, and if it had been out on the PC, it might have put Bungie on the map much earlier. Out of curiosity, what, specifically, does Carmack do that makes him "one of the most talented coders on the planet?" I am an avid fan of game development, and I would like to know what sort of problems he solved, algorithms he wrote, etc. Wolf was revolutionary. Then, Doom brought stairs and windows. That was revolutionary. Then quake brought true 3-d environments as well as polygonal characters. That was also revolutionary. id has brought much to the industry, but the revolutionary games were not particularly fun. Wolf was really cool, but I never like Doom because I was spoiled by Marathon. Even when Quake came out, the Marathon sequels were much more satisfying. Maybe Carmack is a genius, but his crew is less than innovative when it comes to plot, maps, textures, etc. IMO, the most revolutionary FPS in recent history was Goldeneye. The modern setting, more than just a reliance on big guns, sneaking around, taking out security cameras, etc. Half-life is cool, but not particularly revolutionary; it's really just a synthesis of the best features from other games. Unreal is really cool, but revolutionary? Not quite. Certainly a super advanced rendering system, but that is basically because it eats CPU power like Linda Tripp eats cheeseburgers. However, Unreal and Half-life are certainly valuable, because they do set the standard that the industry must now break. What will Q3 have? I am really looking forward to Oni, because if that game is close to what it's hyped to be (and Bungie games always are), it _will_ be revolutionary. +-----------------------------+ | Mark Haase / | savar@mindspring.com \ | mhaase@pace.atl.ga.us / +----------------------------+
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:24:48 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <77g81h$lgf$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:33:05 GMT Jeaux wrote in message <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com>... >Wanted: a stable O/S for Intel oriented computers which will obselete the >Microsoft Abominations. BeOS.
From: mrjones@mindspring.com (Mark Haase) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:53:40 -0500 Organization: WEBeam Message-ID: <mrjones-1201991353400001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> .GXUfmK'b9gDZEBv|@A&qq5kF6KH~L-)}IJxCV{o|87_lT8VRRVF$ In article <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> wrote: > I have been patching Unreal at the hope of playing it someday but am still > waiting now even after MANY many months. I got Half-Life, loaded it and was > playing Online in 10 minutes.... I still cannot have a good game of Unreal > online... and I have 2 cable modems! > > Bill F. And I'm sure you're blaming it on somebody else because it's definitely not your fault? +-----------------------------+ | Mark Haase / | savar@mindspring.com \ | mhaase@pace.atl.ga.us / +----------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <369ae20e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 12 Jan 1999 05:47:58 GMT joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box >says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost >universally ignored it. Well, if the owner of the technology won't sell it to anyone there's not much point developing for it is there? Unfortunately, there has never really been anything Apple could do to persuade people they were really going to sell and support YB.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:26:17 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77g0jp$kmp$1@news.xmission.com> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> <ygczp7phd6i.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77epki$aqd$1@camel0.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:26:17 GMT "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> wrote: > Dr. William V. Smithwrote: > > sanguish@digifix.com wrote: > >> Privately I've been told where the blame for this lays. > > Boy, this story is following a classic Usenet evolution. This must be > the conspiracy theory phase... Those of us who know people inside Apple don't consider this to be a "theory". > > The interesting thing about this is the influence scared people > > at Apple had on the big third-party developers, not the reverse. > > [...]. Many of those folks are still at Apple, > > and continue to do the same things on a more subtle level. > > It just has to be those nasty old Apple people. > Never mind that nearly the entire executive staff > are former NeXT employees. That doesn't change the facts. If you don't know why or can't figure it out, then I can't tell you. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <369af242.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 12 Jan 1999 06:57:06 GMT nomail@anyaccount.edu (Ashish Mishra) wrote: > >>This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box >>says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost >>universally ignored it. > >It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, >speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow >Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple >platforms? You can't - YB programs written in Java are no more portable than those written in Objective-C. Carbon programs written in Java would be less portable than YB programs. The real advantage of Java is hype/mindshare.
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:11:14 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77g382$btl$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <petrich-1101991916040001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <MHzm2.975$wm2.3545555@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <petrich-1201990319080001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> In article <petrich-1201990319080001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote: >> > And Bungie's Marathon series does terminal messages *really* well -- >> >Unreal's look so feeble by comparison. > > But does Half-Life have anything like this? Not really. Half-Life doesn't really make you read anything-- all of the story is told through people talking to you. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:09:51 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> In article <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com>, Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >Half-Life has people that talk to you, instead of Unreal's text messages all >over the place. It's much more interesting when the people walk and talk. I suppose. But I can read pretty quickly... Also, the talking people in Half-Life _still_ just spew out little semi-random pre-programmed bits, rather than saying anything really context-sensitive. And they all look pretty much the same. Anyway, in Unreal, you don't speak or read the language... You'd _need_ a translator. The worlds are both cohesive-- they're just different worlds. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam (Jim Naylor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: 12 Jan 1999 10:21:58 PST Organization: Concentric Internet Services Message-ID: <jrnaylor-1201991221560001@ts002d14.wic-ks.concentric.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com> <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> <iVum2.8122$XY6.169376@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-1201990004240001@da227.ecr.net> In article <tbrown-1201990004240001@da227.ecr.net>, tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: >>> Where's the serial port on a G3 Pro? All those musicians are really happy >>> right now. Waiting for a USB-MIDI (which ain't here yet and I'm puzzled >>> by the lack of mention of Yamaha's mLan). If I don't buy a modem in the >>> box, how do I connect to the internet (no cable modems here)? Where do I >>> get the modem? I think dongles and all other devices work on the USB-ADB >>> box (~$40), but not all serial devices work on a USB-Serial. So, why an >>> ADB port and not a serial port? I can understand this a bit, as the >>> USB-ADB devices prob. weren't done soon enough to allow Apple to risk not >>> having ADB. Maybe the USB-Serial work seemed to be farther along? And >>> there's always a PCI Serial card, but that won't bode well with customers >>> who already think the Pro has too few PCI slots. What'd be the cost of >>> adding a serial port(s)? [snip an interesting "rant"] Thanks for the essay, Ted. ;) I too miss a serial port on iMac, also because I'd like to play around with MIDI. Maybe later I'll get a USB/serial adapter if someone shows it works for MIDI. But I REALLY agree about firewire. If they've truly decided not to do it on iMac, they've lost me for the second machine, with no guarantee that I'll buy "upline." I'm getting closer to installing Linux on it -- care to offer any tips? -- Jim Naylor jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam (remove the ".nospam", natch) Recursion: Cf. "recursion."
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:12:29 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77g3ad$phn$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> In article <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, Bill Frisbee <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> wrote: >I have been patching Unreal at the hope of playing it someday but am still >waiting now even after MANY many months. I got Half-Life, loaded it and was >playing Online in 10 minutes.... I still cannot have a good game of Unreal >online... and I have 2 cable modems! I've had good games of Unreal on-line. I don't know what your problem is. And network play wasn't my point-- I was talking about the plot, and the single-player game. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:15:26 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77g3fu$hlt$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> In article <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net>, Mike Cohen <m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net> wrote: >I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games >and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. > >I'd rather see more useful software. Well, you _are_ reading a thread started by a game programmer's .plan file, crossposted (excessively) to several gaming newsgroups. Useful software or no, games are what push hardware the most. And you can sit in the corner and sulk if you want, but word processors and suchlike haven't changed much in the past decade-- they've just gotten bloatier. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:06:24 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Message-ID: <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> Mark Haase (mrjones@mindspring.com) wrote: : Wolf was revolutionary. Then, Doom brought stairs and windows. That was : revolutionary. Then quake brought true 3-d environments as well as : polygonal characters. That was also revolutionary. id has brought much to : the industry, but the revolutionary games were not particularly fun. Wolf : was really cool, but I never like Doom because I was spoiled by Marathon. : Even when Quake came out, the Marathon sequels were much more satisfying. Comparison of Doom to Marathon seems to me a little unfair, because they were designed too differently. I don't think Doom was meant to be too hard or taxing: the levels were all relatively small, the "bad guys" too slow and stupid (although there were a lot of them for sure). You could just blast through and have a wonderful time. Marathon had these huge levels with lots of wide open space, "bad guys" who could really hurt you (e.g. the machine-gunning grenade-launching aliens), spooky music. It was challenging, but less fun than Doom...the Marathon sequels were even worse: _enormous_ levels, no music. I just couldn't "get into" those games; the atmosphere of game-play was too oppressive. I liked Wolf a _lot_. The guys who turn their noses up at anything more than six months old would gasp at its technical crudity, but Wolf hit a precise balance that hasn't really been matched by any game since, in my opinion. Good music, levels that weren't too simple or too huge, secrets, treasure, a variety of bad guys. Doom tried to steal these elements (esp. secret levels, "bosses" at the ends of missions, &c.) but Wolf did it first and better. Superior graphics has nothing to do with it. -tomlinson -- Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University ------------------------------------------------ "Holly? look down there. Would you really feel any pity if one of those _dots_ stopped moving forever? If I said you could have twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stops, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare?"
From: Steven Kan <steven@kan.org> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 11:14:22 PST Organization: SHINE Message-ID: <369B9F0B.54CF@kan.org> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> tomlinson wrote: > > Mark Haase (mrjones@mindspring.com) wrote: > > : Wolf was revolutionary. Then, Doom brought stairs and windows. That was > : revolutionary. Then quake brought true 3-d environments as well as > : polygonal characters. That was also revolutionary. id has brought much to > : the industry, but the revolutionary games were not particularly fun. Wolf > : was really cool, but I never like Doom because I was spoiled by Marathon. > : Even when Quake came out, the Marathon sequels were much more satisfying. > > Comparison of Doom to Marathon seems to me a little unfair, because they > were designed too differently. I don't think Doom was meant to be too > hard or taxing: the levels were all relatively small, the "bad guys" > too slow and stupid (although there were a lot of them for sure). You > could just blast through and have a wonderful time. Marathon had these > huge levels with lots of wide open space, "bad guys" who could really > hurt you (e.g. the machine-gunning grenade-launching aliens), spooky > music. It was challenging, but less fun than Doom...the Marathon sequels > were even worse: _enormous_ levels, no music. I just couldn't "get > into" those games; the atmosphere of game-play was too oppressive. I'll agree that Doom and Marathon are very different games. Doom is more viscerally satisfying, and Marathon is more likely to keep me up all night. But I'd have to say that for network play, Marathon wins, hands down. Marathon 2's network game still is my all-time favorite, including Q and Q2. The brilliant maps and the balance between capacity to deal carnage in large doses against ability to play intelligent defense makes for a much more satisfying night at the office than the frags-per-second environment of Q and Q2. > I liked Wolf a _lot_. The guys who turn their noses up at anything more > than six months old would gasp at its technical crudity, but Wolf hit > a precise balance that hasn't really been matched by any game since, > in my opinion. Good music, levels that weren't too simple or too huge, > secrets, treasure, a variety of bad guys. Doom tried to steal these > elements (esp. secret levels, "bosses" at the ends of missions, &c.) > but Wolf did it first and better. Superior graphics has nothing to > do with it. Yup. I'll take gameplay over graphics any day, and so will much of the market. Otherwise, Tetris would never have been popular. -- A rich man who hailed from Seattle #``````` Wrote Win95 to do battle, # ``````` But Mac users pity # ``````` The masses not witty # ``````` Enough to know Wintel's for cattle. #. ``````` ~ ~ . \_@_/ ``````` ^_@ o . V ``````` Steven "Rocket Man" Kan `-' - \_@_ ~ . ###### mailto:steven@kan.org V \ ~ . ###### http://www.kan.org ~ . #H2O## Everybody S.H.I.N.E. ~ .#POLO# Support Heterogeneity In Networked Environments ~ ~ ######
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:28:07 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77g7o7$pi1$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> In article <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote: >I liked Wolf a _lot_. The guys who turn their noses up at anything more >than six months old would gasp at its technical crudity, but Wolf hit >a precise balance that hasn't really been matched by any game since, No, there's more to it than that... I played Doom before Wolf3d, and I found Wolf3d kind of lame. And I've played it on the PC, the Mac, and the Jaguar, so it's not just platform advocacy. It was neat, but not _that_ neat. Marathon was much more fun. So was Doom. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: OS X Server price strategy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:10:56 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> To: jmartellaro@macopinion.com John Martellaro has posted a piece on MacOpinion on "MacOS X Server: Thoughts on The Strategy" (http://www.macopinion.com/columns/utopia/jan99/up-43.html) in which he discusses the background of OS X Server and OS X and comments on Apple's OS X Server strategy. He writes: > The way I see it, Apple has a very capable server system in MacOS X > Server. The price is commensurate with previous offerings from NeXT and > the single user price of WindowsNT Server, while offering much more > capability. These servers will be purchased by perhaps one percent of all > Apple customers for specialized applications in graphics, networking, some > schools (booting diskless iMacs), and perhaps security research by the > Government. In time, the product will prove itself. But until Apple has > gained a little more momentum, admiration, and public enthusiasm, they are > not ready to attack the business market with MacOS X Server alone. As > you can see, however, the strategy is working. The final assault, when it > comes, will be more complex and entail many more elements. I think what this fails to address is that while the announced $995 price for OS X Server is a good price for what it includes, Apple is missing out on a very good opportunity to further gain momentum by also offering a lower-priced version without all the Server-specific bells and whistles (WebObjects etc). How would doing so help the overall strategy that John describes? For a start, it would create a wider installed base of users; at $995, only users who definitely need the server features are likely to buy; at a lower price, a greater number of potential users and developers will be able to evaluate the product. The number of users to whom the product will have "proved itself" will be higher. The momentum that John speaks of would, therefore, already begin to build. This would also create a market for YB apps that is currently non-existent, and which the current OS X server offering alone will be unable to provide, given the small numbers of boxes likely to be involved. This will ensure that, when the time comes for Apple to make the full-fledged assault on business that John foresees, a core of native YB apps will be available. If the only thing available at the time OSX proper ships is carbonized former MacOS apps, I doubt most business users will be impressed -- wouldn't this look like simply more of the same things they've already rejected for years? The problem of convincing them that the switch to MacOS X would be worthwhile would be substantially higher. What would be the cost of doing this? The thing is, the cost would truly be minimally small. Stripping out the Server-specific aspects from OSX Server should be trivial; it would probably not even need a different distribution -- it could probably all be done by shipping one bundle, with extra licence strings to enable WebObjects etc for those who purchase the full Server version, and no such licence strings for those who purchase only the "workstation" aspects. There seems to be some fear that a "worsktation" version of OSX Server would "confuse" buyers of MacOS. That partly depends on the marketing spin, but if Apple doesn't make a huge splash over it and prices it at, say, twice what OS8.5 sells for, it's only likely to be bought by well-informed, technically-savvy users who are unlikely to be confused. If the name is a concern, call it something else; Scott Anguish suggested "OPENSTEP 2000". When the San Francisco Chronicle agreed to publish Gary Larson's comics, they suggested the series be called "The Far Side." He replied that he didn't care if they called it "Revenge of the Zucchini People" as long as they published it. Properly handled, the downside risks are minute. MS sells W98 for the masses, WNT Workstation for more advanced users, and WNT Server for server use. Apple has OS8.5 for the masses, and the OS X Server package announced at MacWorld will provide a good competitor to WNT Server. Apple could also have an excellent competitor to WNT workstation, TODAY, by simply selling OS X Server minus WebObjects at a competitive price. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <nagleF5Goso.2Kw@netcom.com> Organization: ICGNetcom References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:29:12 GMT Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) writes: >I have partially to agree with Mr. Carmack here; some of Apple's API's >are a nightmare to use. Of the ones I've wasted time on, Open Transport >has got to be the worst, although the API for the defunct OpenDoc was >probably the biggest offender (how many pages was the OpenDoc Programmer's >Guide??) Open Transport was a real mess. It took Apple seven years to get it out the door, even though it basically is a framework that allows stealing protocol modules from UNIX System V. Worse, it was really intended for the ever-vaporware MacOS with preemptive multitasking. As a result, OT had to have its very own thread scheduler, which supports special "Open Transport tasks". This is the real problem with not having good multitasking in the OS; applications and middleware end up having to try to implement it around the OS, and you end up with a whole collection of bad schedulers, each with different restrictions on what you can do with them. The current MacOS has processes, interrupt tasks, timer tasks, deferred tasks, system tasks, OT tasks, and multiprocessor tasks. Each of these can make a different set of system calls. All but processes are severely restricted in what they can do. And there are no good locking primitives. This is one of the reasons Netscape on the Mac sucks. John Nagle Former Mac developer.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:05:23 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Message-ID: <sg.od.in-1201991705240001@10.1.11.85> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com>, "Jeaux" <jeauxblo@mindspring.com> wrote: ROFLMAO ok.. can I say it? pleeease? :) Buy a Mac :D > Wanted: a stable O/S for Intel oriented computers which will obselete the > Microsoft Abominations. > > [End User License Agreement: By opening this message you show your > agreement to spend the rest of your life vigorously opposing the oppressive > Microsoft marketing philosophy.] > > The instability of Windows Operating System, and the inability of the > operator to re-install major portions of the O/S without re-installing the > entire O/S, maintains an ever-present menace to periodically flush out > information, indescribably important to the user. > > Backups are no solution in a market which produces ever-increasing hard > drive capacities when Microsoft maintains perpetually expanding products > which render the new capacities little more helpful than the older smaller > drives. > > Microsoft will not include proper correctional procedures as to allow the > operator to correct the notorious anomalies which are guaranteed to crop up > in the O/S, without phone contact to Redmond Washington. Neither the demur > manual, NOR the on-line Help avails the correctional procedure to the > Operator. For example, trying to look up the word reinstall in the help > window yields no solution to reinstall some component of the O/S. > > There is the option of calling Microsoft help personnel and paying > long-distance phone charges to have them direct the operator through the > esoteric steps of addressing the pertinent cabinet files, but this increases > the price of Windows from $89.00 retail, to something on the order of > $300.00 to $600.00 per year, to keep the O/S in its normal unstable > operability. > > Microsoft offers no 800 or toll-free numbers for help. Microsoft is such an > oppressively wealthy company that it is publicly contemptuous for them to > fail to offer toll-free technical support as do much smaller vendors who are > much less able to afford this overhead. There should be an investigation to > determine any collusion between Gates or Microsoft and Telecommuications > Companies. > > For Bill Gates to have $65 Billion (not a current figure) taken from > customers for the shoddy unservicable products he has sold should be legally > defined as theft. Gates wealth if properly distributed could more > purposely provide the new Apple IMAC computer to 65 million individuals. > Apple Computers with their more conscientious marketing philosophy would > more ethically deserve the business. > > The Microsoft product upgrade procedure follows a successful formula of > releasing a shoddy, unreliable, unstable product, generating profound sums > of capital wealth, followed by a corrective upgrade, equally lucrative, > which, although it may fix some former problems, includes so much new > feature content (which will require an equally lucrative future corrective > upgrade) with commensurate shoddiness and instability, that the use of > Microsoft Software is a pattern of upgrading from one instability to > another, ostensibly for the purpose of perpetually genereating > regeneratively snowballing Income. > > Microsoft products are not ingenious. They are normally complex application > softwares which are made more complex through the inclusion of protective > devices which insure the company and its founder that it will not miss a > penny. Microsoft is obviously and definitively taking advantage of a market > allegiance which exists for no other reason than that it has always released > software prematurely for the purpose of getting to market ahead of > competition. There cannot be the option of buying a shoddy product first, > and then improving with the advent of competitors software, due to the high > price of software, and the education curve of switching. > > What is reliable in Microsofts products is the guarantee that you will > spend more time wiping them than you will spend in the toilet during your > lifetime. Tens of millions of users, perhaps hundreds, lose hundreds of > man-hours each year compensating for Microsofts marketing philosophy. > > Bill Gates has visited more trouble on mankind in 20 years than millenia of > efforts by any villains, mythical or otherwise, such as Satan, Lucifer, > Beetle Juice, or Ron Hubbard. One can only hope that Gates damnation of > humanity will not be eternal. Like so many other consumers, I have spent a > hellfire of time compensating for a greedy marketing philosophy, oppressive > of competition. Multiply this by the hundreds of millions of computers in > existence to comprehend the extent of the inferno. > > > David Alexander > > Cc: Earth > > > -- > jeauxblo@mindspring.com > alec.net@juno.com -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:28:20 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: [ ... ] >> easier to trouble-shoot, > > NO. A good sysadmin knows his/her system like their spouse's moods. If you > have the stones to properly setup and run a unix system then you sure as hell > can pin down the cause of any problems that may arise. My guess is that > macos shields the user from this type of interaction from the system, > windows 9x certainly does. Microsoft and Apple don't want to confuse their > cutomers with the internals of the os, understandably so. Absolutely. One of the biggest problems with diagnosing Mc and Windows problems is that the error messages are either too non-specific, or contain something uninformative like "program failed to load resource, error -917". The syslog system in Unix is an absolute godsend if properly configured and used. Of course, a good sysadmin doesn't have to know every deatil about every system, either. They just have to have the right mindset for testing to locate problems and know enough to be able to look up the information they need when they need it. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:28:35 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77g7p3$f1m$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: [ ... ] >> easier to trouble-shoot, > > NO. A good sysadmin knows his/her system like their spouse's moods. If you > have the stones to properly setup and run a unix system then you sure as hell > can pin down the cause of any problems that may arise. My guess is that > macos shields the user from this type of interaction from the system, > windows 9x certainly does. Microsoft and Apple don't want to confuse their > cutomers with the internals of the os, understandably so. Absolutely. One of the biggest problems with diagnosing Mc and Windows problems is that the error messages are either too non-specific, or contain something uninformative like "program failed to load resource, error -917". The syslog system in Unix is an absolute godsend if properly configured and used. Of course, a good sysadmin doesn't have to know every deatil about every system, either. They just have to have the right mindset for testing to locate problems and know enough to be able to look up the information they need when they need it. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:33:18 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> In article <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com>, Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: >>I suppose. But I can read pretty quickly... > >So go read a book. Ah, constructive criticism is always a joy. >Sometimes they just spew out that stuff. Often they *are* context sensitive. >They tell you where to go and what to do next. When they shoot a bad guy, >they say "Did you see that shot!" or "That was a good one" or "Good thing I >went to target practice". It's a much more enveloping environment. You feel >much more alone in Unreal. Yeh, but, you see, you _are_ alone in Unreal. I'll expand what I wrote earlier about the Unreal guys-- they have a very limited context-sensitive vocabulary. You can only hear "Maybe we'll live longer if we stick together" twice from two different guards before you realize it's one of something like three phrases for a certain event. Same with "That'll look great in the trophy room!" That sort of reaction is on about the same level as the BoBs in Marathon... "Oooh, that's gotta hurt." "Don't shoot me!" It's neat, yes. It makes you feel like they're actually there for, well, about five minutes. Then it's the same thing over and over... Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:23:47 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <77g7g3$2cl$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <F5EwHr.AJC@T-FCN.Net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:23:47 GMT Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote: > In <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > >> Sure it applies to Linux. The premise of the Mythical Man Month is > > that if you have 100 people working on a project, and add another 100 > > people, it won't get done twice as fast, it might even take longer. > That is NOT the premise of the book! Sheesh! The premise is that if you > think a job needs 100 and then get half way through the schedule and see > you're 1/4 of the way, you can't say "oh, we needed 400 people after all", > hire 300 more and expect that to work. There are many premises in the book, but the Man-month bit is exactly as Scott puts it. Brook's law, on p. 25 ("Oversimplifying outrageously, we state Brooks's Law: Adding manpower to a late software project make it later"), is only a consequence of the Man-month analysis, and not even the most important, as of all groups we ought to know (the most famous refutation of the Mythical Man-Month is "There Is a Silver Bullet", an article written by none other than Brad Cox). I list pages 16 through 19 of the text below for your perusal (minus the pictures, which are the most important part -- they're all graphs of Time versus number of workers). That being said, Scott has failed to realize that like many operating systems, and unlike many other software projects, for the most part Linux is a highly partitionable project once the basic core is done, and can so readily assume a linear man/month curve. One guy ports XWindows, one guy writes the Serial driver, one guy writes awk, etc. There are not n^2 relationships; the number probably approaches n or log(n) relationships among n projects. Sean The Man-Month The second fallacious thought mode is expressed in the very unit of effort used in estimating and scheduling: the man-month. Cost does indeed vary as the product of the number of men and the number of months. Progress does not. Hence the man-month as a unit for measuring the size of a job is a dangerous and deceptive myth. It implies that men and months are interchangeable. Men and months are interchangeable commodities only when a task can be partitioned among many workers with no communication among them [Figure 2.1 -- shows a curve of xy=9, plotted on a graph of x=men, y=months]. This is true of reaping wheat or picking cotton; it is not even approximately true of systems programming. When a task cannot be partitioned because of sequential constraints, the application of more effort has no effect on the schedule [Figure 2.2 -- shows a curve of y=9, plotted on a graph of x=men, y=months]. The bearing of a child takes nine months, no matter how many women are assigned. Many software tasks have this characteristic because of the sequential nature of debugging. In tasks that can be partitioned but hich require communication among the subtasks, the effort of communication must be added to the amount of work to be done. Therefore the best that can be done is somewhat poorer than an even trade of men for months [Figure 2.3 -- shows a graph of x(y-2)=9, where x=men, y=months]. The added burden of communication is made up of two parts, training and intercommunication. Each worker must be trained in the technology, the goals of the effort, the overall strategy, an the plan of work. This training cannot be partitioned, so this part of the added effort varies linearly with the number of workers. Intercommunication is worse. If each part of the task must be separately coordinated with each othre part, the effort increases as n(n-1)/2. Three workers require three times as much pairwise intercommunication as two; four require six times as much as two. If, moreover, there need to be conferences among three, four, etc., workers to resolve things jointly, matters get worse yet. the added effort of communicating may fully counteract the division of the original task and bring us to the situation of Figure 2.4 [a graph of x=men, y=months, where the graph is best described as a Nike swoosh symbol whose bottom is at x=4, y=6; that is, it drops as Men increases, then rises rapidly forever beyond x=4]. Since software construction is inherently a systems effort -- an excercise in complex interrelationships -- communication effort is great, and it quickly dominates the decrease in individual task time brought about by partitioning. Adding more men then lengthens, not shortens, the schedule.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Message-ID: <F5HF8z.Bz@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Sender: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) Organization: datagram References: <3698750b.718404687@news.ultranet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:00:35 GMT In article <3698750b.718404687@news.ultranet.com> seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) writes: > On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 05:42:04 GMT, hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) wrote: > > > >1) Replacing PC hardware with Apple hardware is not an option in most > >large companies. On the other hand, buying Apple software is an option. > > How many companies are willing to change their server platform yet > still have it run on old hardware? What features does MacOS X Server > offer which would justify this kind of conversion? Is the resulting > market large enough to justify supporting this alternate implimentation? > In this case I am not talking about servers, I am talking about workstations. There are a number of existing OpenStep 4.2 apps in the "vertical channel" that require Unix on a PC (i.e. they cannot be ported to NT/YB or NT/Delphi easily). Killing OSX/Intel implies killing these apps. To be honest, there are only a few left. Most of the developers started porting their code to e.g. Delphi on the Wintel platform or X/Motif on a standard Unix system years ago. The remaining few were forced to follow six months ago when Apple announced that OSX-server on Intel would be discontinued after version 1.0. For the die-hards killing DPS and killing the GUI client-server architecture had to finish the job (almost forgot replacing UFS with HFS+). > > 2) Many pre-press companies are buying PC hardware+NT server. > > This is at the heart of Apple's core bussiness. > > [....] > > The OS is NT 4.0 because there is no alternative that runs > > on this hardware. > > It will take years for Apple to fill this hardware gap. > > MacOSX can fill the software gap. > > Given that Solaris, Linux, FreeBSD, BeOS, SCO and Windows NT are > all capable of supporting multiprocessor Intel hardware and > MacOS X Server does not, how does this fill a gap? I am talking about pre-press companies. An Apple (Mach/)Unix with a familiar (Apple) GUI, and most Unix details hidden for the system administrator has a market. Apple tried this before and failed, but administrating AIX is a nightmare compared to OpenStep 4.2, and OSX will look even more familiar than OS. About SMP: On Intel the SMP hardware is shipping for years and there is a lot of example code available for this hardware. But for some reason we probably will not see an Apple SMP OS on Intel before they show us one on PPC. Even if it will take years to build the hardware and software for the latter. > Looking at > servers like Walnut Creek CDROM, which uses a single CPU Intel > box with 1GB RAM and a ~500MB Mylex based six channel RAID array > to outserve 40 Microsoft servers by a factor of two for traffic > served on the internet in a day (724GB via (up to) 3,600 concurrent > FTP sessions, noting that each session requires multiple sockets), > I have to ask what MacOS X Server on Intel will bring to cause > current users of Intel servers to switch to it? > Current users of Intel NT servers in an existing Appletalk network will go for an Apple software solution. The hardware box is not that important. They are buying NT 4.0 at the moment because there is no alternative. A vanilla Unix box with X-Windows is not an alternative for most Apple sites. > > -Steve -- Hugo Burm home: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl work: hugob@fullmoon.nl -------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:45:42 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369BB476.1920B422@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tomlinson wrote: > Comparison of Doom to Marathon seems to me a little unfair, because they > were designed too differently. I don't think Doom was meant to be too > hard or taxing: the levels were all relatively small, the "bad guys" > too slow and stupid (although there were a lot of them for sure). You > could just blast through and have a wonderful time. Marathon had these > huge levels with lots of wide open space, "bad guys" who could really > hurt you (e.g. the machine-gunning grenade-launching aliens), spooky > music. It was challenging, but less fun than Doom...the Marathon sequels > were even worse: _enormous_ levels, no music. I just couldn't "get > into" those games; the atmosphere of game-play was too oppressive. I spent a *ton* of time playing Marathon's single-player game, and it was one of the most memorable gaming experiences I've ever had. But once I finished the game, I never played it again. It's just not that sort of game. With Doom, I never bothered to finish the single-player game, I would just play individual levels over and over again. That, or just multi-play with dorm friends for hours on end. It was a totally different kind of game, yet it, too, was one of the most memorable gaming experiences I've had. I used to envision a sort of "Marathon hero versus Doom hero" matchup, in a sort of Alien vs. Predator fantasy. The striking differences between the characters of each game were evident in how the two heroes differed. I find it odd that people can look at two games, see that they both use first-person 3D graphics, and assume that they are the same game. How ludicrous; would anyone assume that all 2D sprite-based games were the same, back in 1990? I doubt it. > I liked Wolf a _lot_. The guys who turn their noses up at anything more > than six months old would gasp at its technical crudity, but Wolf hit > a precise balance that hasn't really been matched by any game since, > in my opinion. Good music, levels that weren't too simple or too huge, > secrets, treasure, a variety of bad guys. Doom tried to steal these > elements (esp. secret levels, "bosses" at the ends of missions, &c.) > but Wolf did it first and better. Superior graphics has nothing to > do with it. But superior graphics helps! Those who pooh-pooh Half-Life simply overlook the fact that it's done *so* right. No, there's nothing revolutionary about it, from a completely objective perspective. But it represents the *very best* that there is, and I'll admit it's better than I thought anyone could do yet. When I first played Starcraft I was pissed because it wasn't "revolutionary" enough, and I resented all of those comparisons between Starcraft and Total Annihilation. TA *was* revolutionary, Starcraft wasn't. But guess which game I'm still playing, *long* after I bought it? MJP
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Cross platform strategy (was Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:23:09 +1100 Organization: OzEmail Ltd. Message-ID: <77gi36$l3o$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77ekqg$1ra$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Brian Quinlan (quinlan@intergate.bc.ca) wrote: > Ashish Mishra wrote: >> It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, >> speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow >> Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple >> platforms? > >1) The OpenStep APIs do work on multiple platforms. Apple is the one who is >reducing the portability of YB applications. If Apple wants to just make new "cool" technology then they may ignore YB (it's not "cool" to the user, just the developer). I hope they actually want to refine today's computing - and TELL US their cross platform strategy, and make it really cross platform! >2) Java is inferior to Objective-C in most respects and Apple could easily >fix the few lingering problems with Objective-C 3 markets to appeal to if they want to bring developers to their cross platform strategy (I'll call it "AppleX", I can't think of any other name) 1) Today's Java developers: To get these guys, java has to be the core of their new strategy. AppleX adds the valuable YB framework, Quicktime, PDF. A bonus is Objective-C ("if you're developing on Apple-Java anyway, it'll increase your computing power, with the same platform supported"). If they can make some improvements with Sun to Java that'd also be good. 2) Today's Mac developers Carbon. A simple rewrite into Carbon, keeping Quicktime & gaining PDF. It also runs everywhere AppleX runs (yes, that's a big leap!). Get your program on Windows and MacOSX right away. Other platforms as AppleX expands it's availability. You can choose to move slowly to YB where it is beneficial in your code. 3) Today's Openstep developers This is the simple bit. AppleX supports Openstep (YB + Objective C) This is just trying to get some people to _easily_ move onto "AppleX" It still ignores some big markets they could target. Namely Windows developers and Unix/Linux developers, who might move for the appeal of cross platform (assuming an AppleX on Linux), but would still have to rewrite and relearn to do this. Maybe Apple can use WINE just like it uses Carbon (remember, if a developer ported their Win32 program to an AppleX-Wine it would still work on Windows). All this is well and good, but there is still the big issue of how Apple makes money from this. Sell AppleX? Deal with OS providers? Sell development? Who knows. >3) AWT is a lowest common denominator API. I doubt Apple plans on endorsing a standard API with no value to themselves. Can AWT be improved to fit with an "AppleX" strategy? I mean, letting AppleX define AWT look and feel etc so that it fits better on MOSX? >> I think Apple has come to the same realization. Offering three APIs, >> Carbon, Yellow-Box, and Java just doesn't make much sense economically or >> strategically. Isn't Java+YB still the YB API, with the Java language? >Then phase out Carbon. When I suggest having Carbon available on multi platforms (YB first!!), I think this works best if Carbon can be implemented in YB. Native Carbon would be quicker of course, but this allows Apple to worry about one API, while Carbon gets a free ride. It also gives a way of reducing support (over time) of Carbon on MOSX while maintaining compatibility. "AppleX" would eventually allow programs written in Objective C or Java (depending on Java's status in a few years time) to a YB framework with Quicktime, PDF, Colorsync, AppleScript, & OpenGL. Also legacy support for Carbon, WINE, & AWT. Just thoughts and ramblings Greg
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:23:41 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:31:58 GMT Josh Brandt wrote in message <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net>... > >In article <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com>, >Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: >> >>Half-Life has people that talk to you, instead of Unreal's text messages all >>over the place. It's much more interesting when the people walk and talk. > >I suppose. But I can read pretty quickly... So go read a book. >Also, the talking people in Half-Life _still_ just spew out little >semi-random pre-programmed bits, rather than saying anything really >context-sensitive. Sometimes they just spew out that stuff. Often they *are* context sensitive. They tell you where to go and what to do next. When they shoot a bad guy, they say "Did you see that shot!" or "That was a good one" or "Good thing I went to target practice". It's a much more enveloping environment. You feel much more alone in Unreal.
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:42:36 -0600 Organization: Texas Instruments Message-ID: <MPG.110561a38939fee7989847@news.itg.ti.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <nagleF5Goso.2Kw@netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:42:40 GMT In article John Nagle, nagle@netcom.com says... > etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) writes: > >I have partially to agree with Mr. Carmack here; some of Apple's API's > >are a nightmare to use. Of the ones I've wasted time on, Open Transport > >has got to be the worst, although the API for the defunct OpenDoc was > >probably the biggest offender (how many pages was the OpenDoc Programmer's > >Guide??) > > Open Transport was a real mess. It took Apple seven years to > get it out the door, even though it basically is a framework that allows > stealing protocol modules from UNIX System V. > > Worse, it was really intended for the ever-vaporware MacOS > with preemptive multitasking. As a result, OT had to have its very > own thread scheduler, which supports special "Open Transport tasks". > > This is the real problem with not having good multitasking in the > OS; applications and middleware end up having to try to implement it > around the OS, and you end up with a whole collection of bad > schedulers, each with different restrictions on what you can do > with them. The current MacOS has processes, interrupt tasks, timer > tasks, deferred tasks, system tasks, OT tasks, and multiprocessor > tasks. Each of these can make a different set of system calls. > All but processes are severely restricted in what they can do. > And there are no good locking primitives. This is one of the > reasons Netscape on the Mac sucks. But of course, according to Mac users all this nonsense isn't so bad.. David Every could write 15 pages proving how Windows is worse.
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Games, games, games! Message-ID: <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 03:47:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:47:51 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net>, m_cohen@NOSPAMusa.net (Mike Cohen) wrote: > I'm getting tired of all this emphasis on games. I don't own any games > and I hate most of them, nor do I own or need a 3D card. Sorry, but there's a big market for games, and making lots of games available for the MacOS helps sell more Macs. If Quake or Unreal or Myth or Tomb Raider or whatever are only available for PeeCees, then that means that much less interest in the Macintosh. However, if those games are also available for Macs, then that means that this objection goes away. And if lots of Macs get sold, then this means that makers of other kinds of software will think that Macs are worth writing for. Which helps keep the Macintosh from becoming marginalized, which I'm sure you wouldn't want, Mr. Cohen. So I hope you can find some way to accept Apple's being big on games. And what turns you off about most computer games, Mr. Cohen? Please be specific. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:01:16 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77g9md$krq$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <369ae20e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote: > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > >This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box > >says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost > >universally ignored it. > > Well, if the owner of the technology won't sell it to anyone there's not much > point developing for it is there? > Unfortunately, there has never really been anything Apple could do to persuade > people they were really going to sell and support YB. Well, here's a radical idea: now that it's ready, they should... SELL and SUPPORT IT. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:08:49 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Message-ID: <77ga4h$h5a$1@hole.sdsu.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <nagleF5Goso.2Kw@netcom.com> John Nagle (nagle@netcom.com) wrote: : This is the real problem with not having good multitasking in the : OS; applications and middleware end up having to try to implement it : around the OS, and you end up with a whole collection of bad : schedulers, each with different restrictions on what you can do : with them. The current MacOS has processes, interrupt tasks, timer : tasks, deferred tasks, system tasks, OT tasks, and multiprocessor : tasks. Each of these can make a different set of system calls. I could never figure these out at all...if Apple ever laid down in detail, somewhere in Inside Macintosh, just what system calls could be made at interrupt time and which ones couldn't, I never found out. Sometimes IM would say, "this call can't be made at interrupt time," sometimes it wouldn't. : All but processes are severely restricted in what they can do. : And there are no good locking primitives. This is one of the : reasons Netscape on the Mac sucks. It's nice to know there's a reason...I guess. This is the biggest reason why I stopped doing any programming on my own: I got so sick of having to work around the limitations of bad API's and libraries that I said, "the hell with it", and quit. No platform I've tried is entirely immune. BeOS is probably the least bad (Carmack calls it "a nice little system", missing the point that one of the great strengths of BeOS is that it _is_ "little" and doesn't try to implement everything and the kitchen sink) but I'm not convinced that BeOS is ever going to capture more than the slimmest fraction of the personal-computer market. I'm hoping to God that MacOS is something I can use, but frankly I don't expect much from Apple these days. -tomlinson -- Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University ------------------------------------------------ "Holly? look down there. Would you really feel any pity if one of those _dots_ stopped moving forever? If I said you could have twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stops, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare?"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) Subject: Re: Benefits of the demise of MacOS X Server for Intel Message-ID: <F5HG1L.EL@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Sender: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) Organization: datagram References: <779f3r$2od$1@remarQ.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:17:45 GMT In article <779f3r$2od$1@remarQ.com> mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) writes: > > Suppose there's an Intel version of MOSXS. Someone buys the software > and installs it on a clone. Assuming the price is the same for both > PPC and Intel, Apple loses out on high margin server hardware sales; > instead of $1,000 plus whatever they make on the G3 sale, they > get just $1,000 for the CD. > In many cases it is $1000 for the Intel CD or $0 because buying new Apple hardware is not an option. > The downsides to this? It pisses off developers, who don't want to > drop a bunch of money on hardware. > Many developers do not care about having to buy a new G3 development system. They care about what their customers are planning/allowed to buy. Wake up, we are living in a Wintel world. > Apple could keep a few developers around, I suspect, by doing > a crippled developer-targeted Intel release. Say, no net booting, > or other changes that make it difficult to use as a real production > server. > Developers want clear announcements from Apple. Six months ago Apple announced that OSX server on Intel would be discontinued after version 1.0. Most developers got the message. Selling crippled software to the few that did not leave makes no sense. > -- > Don McGregor |"If he means it, there is no trusting his judgment--if he > mcgredo@mbay.net |does not mean it I have no time to waste on such trifling." -- Hugo Burm home: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl work: hugob@fullmoon.nl -------------------------------------------------------------
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:49:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:49:08 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) wrote: > Also, the talking people in Half-Life _still_ just spew out little > semi-random pre-programmed bits, rather than saying anything really > context-sensitive. And they all look pretty much the same. Not much different from the talking Bobs of Bungie's Marathon series, it would seem. Here is how this works: Marathon sound archives have a large number of sound sets, each of which can contain up to 5 soundfiles. If a set is selected, then a sound from it is randomly selected to be played. The Marathon engine treats all Non-Player Characters (NPC)'s alike; their behavior is configured using a "Physics Model" data file. There are numerous parameters that can be set, and some of them are the sounds that the NPC's make. An NPC can be in several states, and the Physics Model specifies which sounds set (if any) to use when in each state. NPC states can include: Idle Seeing an enemy Seeing the player as the enemy Warning that the player is in the NPC's line of fire Being hit Being hit by a friend Apology for friendly fire Victory over enemy Dying Teleporting out I would not be surprised if Half-Life uses a similar approach for what its NPC's say; does it have a NPC state model much more elaborate than Marathon's? -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: jmcn@msg.ti.com (Jason McNorton) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:37:15 -0600 Organization: Texas Instruments Message-ID: <MPG.11056e79cec4c008989849@news.itg.ti.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <77g7o7$pi1$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:37:20 GMT In article Josh Brandt, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net says... > > In article <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, > tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote: > >I liked Wolf a _lot_. The guys who turn their noses up at anything more > >than six months old would gasp at its technical crudity, but Wolf hit > >a precise balance that hasn't really been matched by any game since, > > No, there's more to it than that... I played Doom before Wolf3d, and I found > Wolf3d kind of lame. And I've played it on the PC, the Mac, and the Jaguar, > so it's not just platform advocacy. It was neat, but not _that_ neat. > Marathon was much more fun. So was Doom. Remember that Wolf came out quite awhile before Doom, and a really long time before Marathon.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:50:00 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77gcho$kmp$2@news.xmission.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <77fl68$rq8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:50:00 GMT spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote: > > What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a > > Server. The end user OS will be out shortly. > > Ah, another person who thinks that the name you give to something is > more important than what that something is, a proposition whose > falsehood has been acknowledged since at least the 16th century: > > What's in a name? that which we call a rose > By any other name would smell as sweet; > > No matter what you call it, the OS formerly known as Rhapsody, aka > OPENSTEP, aka NeXTSTEP makes a great workstation OS, and some of us > have been using it as such for almost a decade. But you're forgetting something. <cynicism on> (1) Consider how stupid the "average" person is. Then realize that by definition half the people out there are dumber than that. (2) The purpose of a marketing department is to lie with style. And therefore (3) The average schmuck is dumb enough to believe what the marketing department says, facts be damned. If you don't believe me, just look at Micro$oft's succe$$ful $cheme. (Trillions of flies can't be wrong: eat sh*t!) Or people who think Mac OS X Server is a good server and that that is all it can do. <cynicism off> Do I even _need_ to add the smiley at this point? -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:53:04 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1201991553040001@wil80.dol.net> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> In article <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > John Martellaro has posted a piece on MacOpinion on "MacOS X Server: Thoughts > on The Strategy" (http://www.macopinion.com/columns/utopia/jan99/up-43.html) > in which he discusses the background of OS X Server and OS X and comments on > Apple's OS X Server strategy. > > He writes: > > The way I see it, Apple has a very capable server system in MacOS X > > Server. The price is commensurate with previous offerings from NeXT and > > the single user price of WindowsNT Server, while offering much more > > capability. These servers will be purchased by perhaps one percent of all > > Apple customers for specialized applications in graphics, networking, some > > schools (booting diskless iMacs), and perhaps security research by the > > Government. In time, the product will prove itself. But until Apple has > > gained a little more momentum, admiration, and public enthusiasm, they are > > not ready to attack the business market with MacOS X Server alone. As > > you can see, however, the strategy is working. The final assault, when it > > comes, will be more complex and entail many more elements. > > I think what this fails to address is that while the announced $995 price for > OS X Server is a good price for what it includes, Apple is missing out on a > very good opportunity to further gain momentum by also offering a > lower-priced version without all the Server-specific bells and whistles > (WebObjects etc). > [snip] Posting to this group on this topic won't help because everyone here agrees (at least everyone I've see). The only ones who disagree are the decision makers at Apple. :-( It's worth an e-mail to leadership@apple.com--although it probably won't do much good. > MS sells W98 for the masses, WNT Workstation for more advanced users, and WNT > Server for server use. Apple has OS8.5 for the masses, and the OS X Server > package announced at MacWorld will provide a good competitor to WNT Server. > Apple could also have an excellent competitor to WNT workstation, TODAY, by > simply selling OS X Server minus WebObjects at a competitive price. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: jens-uwe.thieme@charite.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Is Mac OS X faster on Intel as on PowerPC ? Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:40:38 GMT Organization: Draeger KI GmbH Message-ID: <77gfgm$q5h$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo, I think Mac OS X runs faster on a Intel then on a PowerPC Machine. A lot of code is the old Openstep code I think optimized for the Intel platform; is the gnu-compiler better on Intel or PowerPC ? I dont no, but why not .... Is this true, then I can understand the announce strategy from apple. Your statement Steve J. :-)) CIAO JUT -- -------------------------------------------------------------- - send mail to : jens-uwe.thieme@charite.de - - -> NeXTMail & PGP welcome <- - - - - send faxes to : +49 30 450 58904 - -------------------------------------------------------------- - location : home office in berlin (germany) - -------------------------------------------------------------- - "I am saddened -- not by Microsoft's success, I have no - - problem with their success, they've earned their success - - ...for the most part -- I have a problem with the fact - - that they just make really third-rate products." - - - - Steven Paul Jobs - --------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:10:58 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 22:19:17 GMT Loren Petrich wrote in message ... > I would not be surprised if Half-Life uses a similar approach for what >its NPC's say; does it have a NPC state model much more elaborate than >Marathon's? Not for generic NPC's. But there are special NPC's that have very specific details to converse with you about. Telling you specific things like where to go or what to do next. They'll tell you to go through the door, then they'll go open the door for you. Or there will be two of them, and they'll take turns telling you things.
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:57:24 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Message-ID: <77g9f4$gs3$1@hole.sdsu.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <77g7o7$pi1$1@decius.ultra.net> Josh Brandt (mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net) wrote: : No, there's more to it than that... I played Doom before Wolf3d, and I found : Wolf3d kind of lame. And I've played it on the PC, the Mac, and the Jaguar, : so it's not just platform advocacy. It was neat, but not _that_ neat. Well, I guess different people like different things in games--and I'm not sure that I could specify exactly why I find one game interesting and another boring. I haven't tried out a new three-dee game since Jedi Knight a couple of years back. Usually what happened when I tried a new entry to the genre was this: I'd play for a few levels legitimately, then I'd starting cheating (if possible) just to make the game go quicker; finally I'd give up on the game entirely. I got through Wolf3D, the original Doom, Dark Forces, and Jedi Knight without resorting to cheating. I never finished Marathon (but did get through most of it), Durandal, Infinity, Doom II, Heretic, or Hexen. (I gave up on Infinity and Hexen _very_ quickly.) I played the Quake demo to the end but never was interested enough to buy the full game. And since now I haven't any computer good enough to play the newest games I can't say anything for the latest and greatest. -tomlinson -- Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University ------------------------------------------------ "Holly? look down there. Would you really feel any pity if one of those _dots_ stopped moving forever? If I said you could have twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stops, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare?"
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 22:22:25 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77ghv1$uch$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> In article <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, Loren Petrich <petrich@netcom.com> wrote: > I would not be surprised if Half-Life uses a similar approach for what >its NPC's say; does it have a NPC state model much more elaborate than >Marathon's? It appears to be similar, yes. It has some eye-candy, like 3-d characters instead of sprites, and their mouths move when they talk, but there appear to be a few states they can be in. And if you shoot a guard once (and don't kill him...) he doesn't immediately turn on you, like the Bobs tend to... Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 22:23:55 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77gi1r$8om$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> In article <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com>, Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: >Not for generic NPC's. But there are special NPC's that have very specific >details to converse with you about. Telling you specific things like where >to go or what to do next. They'll tell you to go through the door, then >they'll go open the door for you. Or there will be two of them, and they'll >take turns telling you things. They're just scripted, though... The Quake engine can do this kind of thing. Check out Malice for an example. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 22:19:41 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> In article <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com>, Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: >>I'll expand what I wrote earlier about the Unreal guys-- > >I think you mean Half-Life. Yep, what you said. >Yes, that is for the generic people. There are many others throughout the >game that have very specific things to tell you, show you, etc., that are >very context sensitive and unique. This is similar to Unreal (the Nali, specifically), who act differently depending on how you approach them and whether you've shot any of them on that level, and things like that. All I'm trying to say is that Half-Life isn't an Unreal-killer like some people have said-- they're both good games. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: tross3@hamtel.tds.net (Terry & Karen Ross) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:40:15 GMT Organization: It's around here somewhere... Message-ID: <77gmgv$r1t@news2.tds.net> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> On 12 Jan 1999 12:09:11 , "Jeaux" wrote: [Majority snipped] >Bill Gates has visited more trouble on mankind in 20 years than millenia of >efforts by any villains, mythical or otherwise, such as Satan, Lucifer, >Beetle Juice, or Ron Hubbard. One can only hope that Gates damnation of >humanity will not be eternal. Like so many other consumers, I have spent a >hellfire of time compensating for a greedy marketing philosophy, oppressive >of competition. Multiply this by the hundreds of millions of computers in >existence to comprehend the extent of the inferno. > > >David Alexander > >Cc: Earth OK, OK, I admit it. I contributed to all of this. I once bought Atari Microsoft BASIC for my Atari 400 & 800s, way back in '80 or '81, and I've been feeling guilty about it ever since.... Terry Ross -- US Distributor for: ST+ Fanzine & Atari Times Special Edition(s) http://personalpages.tds.net/~tross3 IRC: qnr for: Atari/Bangor Maine/Sled dogs/Scotland/Cherokees/Genealogy. Curious /and/ skeptical - To paraphrase Descartes: SUM ERGO COGITO
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <7Yzm2.8158$XY6.173090@news.san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:11:47 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:11:47 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> , satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> "William V. Campbell Jr." wrote:- >> Well I'm telling you because you were listening. Let me see the MacOS is >> easier to use than unix, easier to set-up, > > yes and yes > >>easier to trouble-shoot, > > NO. A good sysadmin knows his/her system like their spouse's moods. If you > have the stones to properly setup and run a unix system then you sure as hell > can pin down the cause of any problems that may arise. My guess is that > macos shields the user from this type of interaction from the system, > windows 9x certainly does. Microsoft and Apple don't want to confuse their > cutomers with the internals of the os, understandably so. > >>superior interface > > NeXT has yet to be surpassed in gui excellence. Xwindows is an odd mix of > superior design and mediocre to bad design, as well as severely > inconsistent. Maturing quickly though, and certainly offers the user much > more freedom to hand tailor their interface than any other gui environment. > >> superior gaming environment, superior peripheral >> connectivity...... > > Linux is _slowly_ catching up to macos in terms of gaming. Next to windows > no os supports more hardware than linux does. The BSD's and Solaris also > offer pretty good hardware support. > >>Shall I go on? You see it's how one defines SUPERIOR. - > > Ok, then I will say that to the average user, who doesn't even know what smp > is, and can barely point and click their way past their desktop, windows is > superior. Superior because they can walk into any Best Buy, CompUSA, or > Software Etc and choose from a vast library of software knowing that it will > run on their system at home, and it may even be simple enough for them to > actually use. From a consumer stand point, windows is king > Michael also said, >>>Why are you telling me this? I'm not a windows user, with the exception of a >>> 2 gig partition I have strictly for gaming. Macos, windows, your face, your >>> ass, what's the difference? Tell me how macos is superior to unix, then >>>I'll argue with you. Why are you telling me this??? I'm not a windows user. Tell 'ME' how windows is superior to macos, then you can argue with yourself. :-) LOL. -- "Whatever you want-Wants you" -- "A Course in Miracles" William V. Campbell Jr. Country Liv'n wcampbe1@san.rr.com
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 12 Jan 1999 22:25:55 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77gi5j$b31$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <77g7o7$pi1$1@decius.ultra.net> <MPG.11056e79cec4c008989849@news.itg.ti.com> In article <MPG.11056e79cec4c008989849@news.itg.ti.com>, Jason McNorton <jmcn@msg.ti.com> wrote: > >Remember that Wolf came out quite awhile before Doom, and a really long >time before Marathon. Well, yes, but the original poster, to whom I was replying, had said, more or less, that nothing since Wolf3d has been as good. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
Message-ID: <36929412.E13211D3@rebisoft.nospam.com> From: Jack Nutting <jnutting@rebisoft.nospam.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 23:37:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:37:21 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Scott Anguish wrote: > All I know for sure about the Intel product is what I was told > by Ernie at the BOF. > > "There are no plans at this time to productize the Intel > port." > > Privately I've been told where the blame for this lays. I'm > not sure that I believe it, but its interesting fodder. OK Scott, don't tease us! Give us the dirt! -- Jack Nutting jnutting@rebisoft.com www.rebisoft.com
Message-ID: <369BCF0C.CA94453F@klassy.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:39:08 -0800 From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> Organization: Klassy Soft MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> <77gi1r$8om$1@decius.ultra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Um, Half Life uses teh Quake engine. So ya, Quake can do this whats your point? Josh Brandt wrote: > In article <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com>, > Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >Not for generic NPC's. But there are special NPC's that have very specific > >details to converse with you about. Telling you specific things like where > >to go or what to do next. They'll tell you to go through the door, then > >they'll go open the door for you. Or there will be two of them, and they'll > >take turns telling you things. > > They're just scripted, though... The Quake engine can do this kind of thing. > Check out Malice for an example. > > Josh > > -- > ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads > J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: sr145@_nospam_hotmail.com (Sam) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:52:51 GMT Organization: Magna Data - Internet Solutions Provider Message-ID: <369bd14d.2641809@news.magna.com.au> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <3691E2A5.69D3CC22@sprynet.com> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <3698c4eb.2939641@news.magna.com.au> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> <77dd65$9s1$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11 Jan 1999 17:42:29 GMT, rjcousin@sfu.ca (Ryan John Cousineau) wrote: >I'm sure the Americans would be quite happy to pit the World Series >champion against the Australian national baseball team, and the trophy was >named for the New York World (a sponsoring newspaper), anyways. We would be happy to take you on in Rugby (League or Union), or Cricket. Sam
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:59:59 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369BD3EF.43BBCB49@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Earl Malmrose wrote: > > Loren Petrich wrote in message ... > > I would not be surprised if Half-Life uses a similar approach for what > >its NPC's say; does it have a NPC state model much more elaborate than > >Marathon's? > > Not for generic NPC's. But there are special NPC's that have very specific > details to converse with you about. Telling you specific things like where > to go or what to do next. They'll tell you to go through the door, then > they'll go open the door for you. Or there will be two of them, and they'll > take turns telling you things. Those interactions are very clever and aren't anything like the model Loren described. The Marathon conversational model consists of static settings assigned to NPC attributes, whereas the interactions you're describing are scripted into the game by the designers. These scripts are just one piece of the larger purpose, which is that Half-Life is more of a story than a game. MJP
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:40:00 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Games, games, games! Message-ID: <stevehix-1201991540000001@192.168.1.10> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca> <kTAm2.21099$Js2.5484@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <jwct-1201990031030001@port21.magma.ca> Organization: Close to None In article <jwct-1201990031030001@port21.magma.ca>, jwct@magma.ca (J.W. Corey Tamas) wrote: > In article <kTAm2.21099$Js2.5484@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>, "Chris Van > Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote: > > > Its a mac newsgroup isn't it? > > A newsgroup about action games for the Mac platform, yeah. Which one is? You've only posted to three different groups...
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:48:18 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <77gnfj$qk9$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> <77gi1r$8om$1@decius.ultra.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:56:35 GMT Josh Brandt wrote in message <77gi1r$8om$1@decius.ultra.net>... > >In article <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com>, >Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: >>Not for generic NPC's. But there are special NPC's that have very specific >>details to converse with you about. Telling you specific things like where >>to go or what to do next. They'll tell you to go through the door, then >>they'll go open the door for you. Or there will be two of them, and they'll >>take turns telling you things. > >They're just scripted, though... The Quake engine can do this kind of thing. >Check out Malice for an example. Of course they're scripted. And sure the Quake engine can do that. Half-Life uses the Quake engine. That doesn't take away from the fact that it's a nice feature of Half-Life that really wasn't part of Unreal.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:53:04 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <stevehix-1201991553040001@192.168.1.10> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <77eiuq$o89$1@news.digifix.com> Organization: Close to None In article <77eiuq$o89$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > On 01/11/99, Rick wrote: > <snip> > >What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a > >Server. The end user OS will be out shortly. > > > > What do you not understand about the definition of SHORTLY? > > A year is not SHORTLY. Especially in the computer world. Tell that Intel or Microsoft (Merced & "Chicago").
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:06:26 +0100 From: Hugh.Fisher@cs.anu.edu.au (Hugh Fisher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Message-ID: <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> Organization: DCS, ANU In article <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com>, petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote: > I wonder what makes the MacOS so terrible -- I'm not saying that there > isn't any justification; I'm just wondering. As a programmer - this is what John Carmack was talking about - MacOS still has a couple of serious uglies. Most of MacOS is pretty damn good these days. Quickdraw is, come to think of it always has been, just beautiful to work with. (Anyone who complains about QD should be sentenced to program with Xlib until they beg for mercy.) The Palette Manager (revised version) makes X Windows look downright primitive. The QuickTime APIs are nice and easy to work with, at least from my high level app programmer view. And so on - most of the high level stuff really works quite well. The real horror, which Carmack focused on, is the memory manager. Fixed size partitions in the 1990's. If your app has been assigned a 2M partition and it needs more than 2M of memory, you're screwed. Never mind that there's 32 more megabytes of unused virtual address space showing up in About This Macintosh - you can't use it. Aaargh! All you as a programmer can do is put up an alert telling the user to quit and increase the partition. (And yeah, I know about the temporary memory allocation routines. Double aargh.) The File Manager is not far behind. The API went cancerous when HFS came out and has got steadily worse. SetVol, HSetVol, working directory IDs, file specification records, wierd interpretations of names and colons,... Aaargh! There's actually quite a nice file system buried underneath all this backwardly compatible crud, but you wouldn't know it from reading the API specs. Unfortunately for Apple the memory manager and file manager are kinda crucial for most apps, so everybody has to go through the pain and suffering and tends to forget the good bits. Hugh
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:14:48 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Message-ID: <77goho$lg7$1@hole.sdsu.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> Hugh Fisher (Hugh.Fisher@cs.anu.edu.au) wrote: : All you as a programmer can do is put up an alert telling the user : to quit and increase the partition. (And yeah, I know about the : temporary memory allocation routines. Double aargh.) Other wonderful gotchas as well: worrying about fragmentation and nonrelocatable or locked blocks of memory; not being able to allocate or move memory in certain kinds of callbacks. It's a goddamn mess. : The File Manager is not far behind. The API went cancerous when : HFS came out and has got steadily worse. SetVol, HSetVol, working : directory IDs, file specification records, wierd interpretations : of names and colons,... Aaargh! Not to mention a million kinds of ParamBlockRec calls and a thousand data structures to go with them, each slightly different. -tomlinson -- Ernest S. Tomlinson - San Diego State University ------------------------------------------------ "Holly? look down there. Would you really feel any pity if one of those _dots_ stopped moving forever? If I said you could have twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stops, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money? or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare?"
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:13:04 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1201991613040001@dynamic27.pm02.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> <77gi1r$8om$1@decius.ultra.net> In article <77gi1r$8om$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) wrote: > In article <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com>, > Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >Not for generic NPC's. But there are special NPC's that have very specific > >details to converse with you about. Telling you specific things like where > >to go or what to do next. They'll tell you to go through the door, then > >they'll go open the door for you. Or there will be two of them, and they'll > >take turns telling you things. > > They're just scripted, though... The Quake engine can do this kind of thing. > Check out Malice for an example. Um, yeah, but the point is that it's very well done, very clever, and everything actually does relate well to the progress of the game. The question is not whether Quake can do this (and yes, Half-Life is based partly on Quake/Quake 2 code, though much of it is original), but rather whether other games actually do this as implemented by their level designers. -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
From: Pi Times a Million <3141593@frames.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! (N/T) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:25:26 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369BE7F4.45B@frames.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dr6p$2ge$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:15:52 GMT ...
From: Pi Times a Million <3141593@frames.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! (N/T) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:25:49 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369BE80B.53E4@frames.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <MPG.1104254f42f719b2989845@news.itg.ti.com> <see-below-1101991659100001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> <HYzm2.81$Nc2.2781@news.rdc1.on.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:16:15 GMT ...
From: Pi Times a Million <3141593@frames.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! (N/T) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:30:32 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369BE925.7FA2@frames.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:20:57 GMT Followups set.
From: Pi Times a Million <3141593@frames.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:31:04 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369BE945.1073@frames.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:21:29 GMT Followups set, newsgroups trimmed.
From: Pi Times a Million <3141593@frames.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:31:43 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369BE96C.6278@frames.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:22:08 GMT Followups set, newsgroups trimmed
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:56:02 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca><772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca><7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> Now that I'm back in the UK and I've just about got net access again (our news service is down once more <sigh>) I've read through most of the posts in this thread now, and I'm afraid that I can't believe the tone here. I'm responding to Greg's post as it seems to give me something to bounce off of... In article <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > Once again, Scott, you have crystalized my thoughts perfectly. To me, > the very fact that Apple's actions seem calculated to piss off and > drive away the last remaining YB developers, is the most telling sign > that they don't intend to push it in the future. > I see no way in which Apple's moves are *calculated* to "piss off and drive away the last remaining YB developers". Their actions may have an unfortunate side effect of setting back YB developers' plans, however as the adage goes, never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. And I don't even think Apple is being stupid (in its own terms). I'll come back to this theme later, but to deal with the other aspects first: > Otherwise, they'd be going out of their way to make sure the last > stalwarts, like you and me, were happy and supported through the > transition. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but anyone who still thinks > otherwise is painfully deluded. > Well, call me painfully deluded, then. > Except as a hidden part of WO, Apple wants YB dead. > Utter tosh. I have seen no indication of that at all; Ernie made it clear what the position is re *marketing* YB at the BoF, and given everything else it seems again an unfortunate but understandable situation. MacOS X was (as Ernie put it) in the dog house for a while and has now emerged with a greater fanfare than many of us would have imagined. I have good reason to expect that the case is the same for YB. Other than that development of YB and YB-related technologies is continuing apace. The new Document architecture, with access to AppleScripting is but one *excellent* indication; Doug Davidson's exposition at the BoF of the new ExceptionHandling framework is another. Mike Ferris made it clear that development of the new window server is progressing well. These are not indicative of a moribund environment. Much of the wailing and gnashing of teeth here seems to be predicated on a number of false premises: (a) YB/NT is going away. No, it isn't. I don't know where that rumour comes from; Apple is trying to resolve licensing issues right now (yes, I know it has taken them a lot longer than any of us wanted, but that doesn't deny that it's happening). (b) YB/NT runtimes will be exorbitantly expensive. No, they won't be. I seem to recall Apple promising something around the $20 mark, and I have no reason to believe that this won't be met, at worst. [Note: I do take Scott Hess' point about free runtimes for demo versions of apps, and look forward to the time when this too is addressed with the new window server.] (c) Obj-C is being killed. No, it isn't. It's not being actively developed -- Apple's primary OO investment will be in Java, and Obj-C will be around for a long time. To recap, at the BoF Jordan indicated that the *centre of gravity* will swing from Obj-C to Java *over the next 18-36 months*. That's hardly an instantaneous stroke, and it's something we can prepare for, particularly given (d)... (d) Java is inadequate to replace Obj-C. This is largely true *now*. However recall the timescale mentioned in (c), and the facts that (i) Java is evolving at a tremendous rate, and (ii) it was reported at the BoF that Apple is looking to improve Java itself. Think about what everyone's been saying here: we know that Java couldn't replace Obj-C right now -- apart from anything else the lack of Categories presents a huge impediment to progress. If Apple wants to move to Java, do you not think that it must address these issues too? As I understand it, the lack of Categories presents the single largest impediment to Apple's progress in making the transition themselves. Something will have to be done to remedy this. Don't get me wrong here, I *far* prefer Obj-C's syntax and other features, and will be using it as long as I can, however I'm not reacting as if Apple has made all my code redundant as of this instant. We reacted rationally to the news about the new window server, I don't see why we can't react rationally now. (e) McOX/Intel is being killed. This one I won't disagree with. This looks more than likely, and I posted about this several months ago, and made a couple of suggestions, primarily that the most constructive course of action is to mail Apple -- leadership@apple.com -- about it, and make it clear why this is a Bad Move... ... and this is the time now to return to the bigger picture themes. I get the impression some people are taking Apple's moves a bit too "personally" -- "Apple's out to destroy YB and long-term NeXT developers". This is not the case at all. Apple is doing things that it believes are in its best interests, for the *majority* of its users, and in doing so (to more-or-less repeat what may become an infamous quote) there are likely to be some casualties. This doesn't mean Apple is being willfully malicious. What we have to do is to show Apple that there is a *business case* for reversing some of those decisions -- e.g. that McOX/Intel would be a Good Thing for economic/strategic reasons, avoiding any reference to existing OS users, or ex-NeXTers in general (this will only serve to give the impression that we only have selfish interests at heart). We have to show why it is good *for Apple*. Further we have to show why YB/NT is inadequate as the only Intel-based solution -- this is a bit more tricky since so many customers in the enterprise market at least are putting up with it, but... Now, to consider the plight of YB developers and their (our) options: YB developers have a number of means of making money: (a) Selling "horizontal" shrinkwrap software; (b) High value, high cost MCCA-style / server-based apps; (c) OPENSTEP consulting (there is still plenty about); (d) WebObjects apps / consulting. With recent announcements, only (a) looks like a losing strategy and that *only in the short-medium term*, and then only if YB/NT does not offer a good solution. We have a valid complaint that Apple has not delivered on the original Rhapsody promise, notably in terms of timescales, Yes, this is a major downer for some of us. Yes, two years ago we had great visions of all suddenly becoming the next Adobe/Micro$oft/Whatever, but then two years and one month ago we were all planning (or had announced...) exit strategies from the NeXT community... I think we learned a long time ago that we had to have income streams other than from YB shrinkwrap. What do the recent announcements mean for us? That we have to again consider our business plans and roll-out timescales. For most, yes. Is this a Bad Thing? Yes. Do they mean that we should all pack up our toys and go home? For me, I think no. Put them into cold storage if you like, but in the meantime find other ways of leveraging your experience and skills -- there are plenty of opportunities in the YB world, whether in the old NeXT marketplaces, or in the new arenas opened with Apple's customer base. Ask Helios what they think. I'd like to write more, but it's late and this is probably too long already. mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 12 Jan 99 18:14:52 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C1419F-2122E@206.165.43.33> References: <joe.ragosta-1201991553040001@wil80.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said: >Posting to this group on this topic won't help because everyone here >agrees (at least everyone I've see). The only ones who disagree are the >decision makers at Apple. :-( > >It's worth an e-mail to leadership@apple.com--although it probably won't >do much good. If the experience of OpenDoc/GX/Cyberdog/HyperCard users is any indication, that address is heavily filtered. You're better off writing a snailmail letter, instead. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 12 Jan 99 18:17:35 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C14241-2386A@206.165.43.33> References: <369af242.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk> said: >You can't - YB programs written in Java are no more portable than those >written >in Objective-C. Carbon programs written in Java would be less portable >than >YB programs. > >The real advantage of Java is hype/mindshare. I don't think that that is true. YB provides a pretty darned complete framework that obscures virtually ANY platform-specific issues. If you write to the YB API, it shouldn't matter whether it is compiled to Mac or Intel or Solaris or whatever. YB takes care of all the platform-specific details for you, and does it better than any other OOP framework, by all accounts (but they still need a well-defined shape-database printing and graphics solution...;). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 12 Jan 99 18:23:39 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C143AD-28DF8@206.165.43.33> References: <stevehix-1201991553040001@192.168.1.10> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> said: >In article <77eiuq$o89$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott >Anguish) wrote: > >> On 01/11/99, Rick wrote: >> <snip> >> >What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a >> >Server. The end user OS will be out shortly. >> > >> >> What do you not understand about the definition of SHORTLY? >> >> A year is not SHORTLY. Especially in the computer world. > >Tell that Intel or Microsoft (Merced & "Chicago"). Just because MS can get away with it (being the 90% dominant platform) doesn't mean that Apple can. For one thing, there are a LOT of users who are upset with the MacOS X-is-G3-only issue, and if MacOS X takes too long to appear, they may well decide "why wait and upgrade to an OS that isn't compatible with current hardware anyway when I have to purchase a new computer anyway and can get a SHIPPING OS right now that will run versions of all my mission-essential hardware?" For another, there are a LOT of Mac and OpenStep developers that are STILL weirded out by Apple's decisions about APIs. Carbon only makes sense for Adobe, MS and other cross-platform behemoths. Carbon graphics is even worse, from that perspective, because it provides almost NONE of the features that GX does, none of the ease-of-programming that YB does, and only works on a fraction of the machines that they might target for the next few years. Only 1 million people have purchased 8.5 so far, and many of my DTP friends are very leery of HFS+, and other "advanced" features to be found in 8.1 and later... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! From: moto667@dimensional.com (Beemer Dan) Message-ID: <1dlhyys.1ozpcu6zhle0N@p44.pm3c03.pm.dimcom.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <joe.ragosta-1101991446290001@wil96.dol.net> <77dkva$7hd$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <4wtm2.3755$xq4.854@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <Look-1101992252020001@ppp45.philly.pil.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 (unregistered) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:16:17 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:05:14 MDT Organization: Dimensional Communications Adrian Turkington <Look@my.sig> wrote: > In article <4wtm2.3755$xq4.854@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com > (Michael Lankton) wrote: > > :In <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:- > :> It's just a game, for Pete's sake. 95 MB? No thanks.- > : > :I don't know which cave you've been living in for the last two years, but > :modern 3d games need to do a lot of floating point calculations and move a > :lot of textures. Just because you don't enjoy games, don't assume that the > :rest of us will be content with BSD tetris for the rest of our lives. Games > :are the flashiest and most demanding of applications, of course they require > :more resources than a word processor or spreadsheet. > > I think he was just expressing his opinion about games that take up more > resources than he's willing to put into just to get the game to run with > all the bells and whistles. > > Chill out man he likes his tetris! :) I do to ;P Yeah! Me too...that's what my Palm Pilot is for! -- ----Beemer Dan The preceeding statement may contain language and images unsuitable unsweetened breakfast cereal and all farm equipment
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:35:30 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1201991735310001@dynamic27.pm02.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <369B9F0B.54CF@kan.org> In article <369B9F0B.54CF@kan.org>, steven@kan.org wrote: > I'll agree that Doom and Marathon are very different games. Doom is more > viscerally satisfying, and Marathon is more likely to keep me up all > night. But I'd have to say that for network play, Marathon wins, hands > down. Marathon 2's network game still is my all-time favorite, including > Q and Q2. The brilliant maps and the balance between capacity to deal > carnage in large doses against ability to play intelligent defense makes > for a much more satisfying night at the office than the frags-per-second > environment of Q and Q2. This is very interesting, because I feel exactly the opposite, I find that Quake allows for a lot more tactics than I've ever seen in Marathon games. I've watched a lot of championship-level Quake playing and a lot of championship-level Marathon playing, and I'd definitely characterize the Marathon games as far more 1-shot kills with the missle launcher, all attack and no defense, duke it out in the middle of the arena, etc., and Quake as a far more tactical cat-and-mouse game, with shifts in offense and defence. if you watch for instance the PGL season 1 Quake finals games between Thresh and Reptile (2 games, on dm2 and dm6), you'll find that nearly the entire game is played out of sight of the opponent, with lots of sneaking around, prediction shots around corners, quick escapes, wild chases, collection of items and denying them from your opponent, etc. Team games also have some incredible tactics, vying for control of the level (usually dm3), with a lot of communication and cooperation between teammates--Quake really revolves around item control (weapons, armor, powerups), which I've never noticed to be much of an issue in Marathon. Marathon games are for the most part: get in the middle of the arena and shoot at each other. I'm also not terribly impressed with the maps, other than that the simple open arena types work well for Marathon. On the other hand, Marathon games are loads of fun, and definitely visceral in the sense that dodging missles becomes a very physical real-world activity, whether playing or watching someone else. I don't know of another game that has people moving and weaving and ducking in their seats more than multiplayer Marathon. If Marathon had usable internet capabilities and decent mouse code I'd probably play it a lot to this day, it's such a blast. -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:16:48 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1201991716480001@dynamic27.pm02.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <369BB476.1920B422@ericsson.com> In article <369BB476.1920B422@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > tomlinson wrote: > > > Comparison of Doom to Marathon seems to me a little unfair, because they > > were designed too differently. I don't think Doom was meant to be too > > hard or taxing: the levels were all relatively small, the "bad guys" > > too slow and stupid (although there were a lot of them for sure). You > > could just blast through and have a wonderful time. Marathon had these > > huge levels with lots of wide open space, "bad guys" who could really > > hurt you (e.g. the machine-gunning grenade-launching aliens), spooky > > music. It was challenging, but less fun than Doom...the Marathon sequels > > were even worse: _enormous_ levels, no music. I just couldn't "get > > into" those games; the atmosphere of game-play was too oppressive. > > I spent a *ton* of time playing Marathon's single-player game, and it > was one of the most memorable gaming experiences I've ever had. But once > I finished the game, I never played it again. It's just not that sort of > game. Yeah, while I did play each Marathon game a few times through, I doubt I would do that today, now that there are more games to play, and that multiplayer on the internet is a realistic alternative. But I find that plot-driven games are like that, once I've played through them, there's not much point in returning, since now I know what's going to happen. Marathon had far more replay value than most, but I still wouldn't say I replay it any more than I replay Quake single player, I just find playing Quake (single player) more "fun". > With Doom, I never bothered to finish the single-player game, I would > just play individual levels over and over again. That, or just > multi-play with dorm friends for hours on end. It was a totally > different kind of game, yet it, too, was one of the most memorable > gaming experiences I've had. Yes, and Quake, though less scary and moody than Doom, is kind of the same way--the levels can be quite fun to play, and replay, individually (not to mention the incredible multiplayer), even though there's no plot to speak of, no particular point to any of it, and not much continuity moving from level to level. These games are more like action-arcade games, and aren't so concerned with exploration, story, etc. (and shouldn't be, since I don't think id would be very good at that) -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:09:36 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1201991609360001@dynamic27.pm02.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <77g3ad$phn$1@decius.ultra.net> In article <77g3ad$phn$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) wrote: > In article <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, > Bill Frisbee <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> wrote: > >I have been patching Unreal at the hope of playing it someday but am still > >waiting now even after MANY many months. I got Half-Life, loaded it and was > >playing Online in 10 minutes.... I still cannot have a good game of Unreal > >online... and I have 2 cable modems! > > I've had good games of Unreal on-line. I don't know what your problem is. > > And network play wasn't my point-- I was talking about the plot, and the > single-player game. ...which, truth be told, I found unbearably tedious... After you get beyond the "oooh, aaah" factor of some of the dramatically-designed levels and the nice-looking graphics, there's really not much to this game, and plodding through those gargantuan levels is downright boring. Personally I actually enjoy replaying Quake a lot more than Unreal. -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Message-ID: <tbrown-1201992059420001@da173.ecr.net> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991356500001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79a5ll.9c5.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0701991457440001@ts001d24.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn79aitb.ad8.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0801990833190001@wil128.dol.net> <slrn79db1f.kmf.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <joe.ragosta-0901990926270001@elk61.dol.net> <GaNl2.6467$XY6.149971@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-0901992215210001@da168.ecr.net> <19990110115703327837@ts4-05.aug.com> <tbrown-1001992209360001@d222.ecr.net> <iVum2.8122$XY6.169376@news.san.rr.com> <tbrown-1201990004240001@da227.ecr.net> <jrnaylor-1201991221560001@ts002d14.wic-ks.concentric.net> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:59:42 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:00:28 CDT In article <jrnaylor-1201991221560001@ts002d14.wic-ks.concentric.net>, jrnaylor@concentric.net.nospam (Jim Naylor) wrote: >I too miss a serial port on iMac, also because I'd like to play around >with MIDI. Maybe later I'll get a USB/serial adapter if someone shows it >works for MIDI. But I REALLY agree about firewire. If they've truly >decided not to do it on iMac, they've lost me for the second machine, with >no guarantee that I'll buy "upline." I can't seem to scare up the quote (I really didn't look that long). I ran across it in my 'what happened at the Expo so lets re-read the same info on half-a-zillion sites web crawl'. If I had even a glimmer on which Mac site it was, then I could find it. And sadly, I don't even know if the person was simply misquoted or taken out of context (an often enough case). >I'm getting closer to installing Linux on it -- care to offer any tips? On an iMac? There's some hints at http://www.linuxppc.org/ I guess I can use some Linux tips. I installed mkLinux on my old PM 6100 and toyed with it. I wasn't all that impressed, though I did get everything working (incl ppp which seemed to be a sticking point for some). However, I realized that my screen was dinky and that I hadn't learned enough about the varient X-stuff floating around to make a real judgement (I've some previous X experience with Suns & HPs but it's been awhile). Drag and drop seemed very intermittant, but I expected that from X apps. It was nice to brush up on my unix. I've come to the conclusions that I should install linux-ppc on my 7600, but am waiting for the new version of the linuxppc CD. I just don't feel like dl'ing the entire thing again. That is unless someone has a better suggestion of a Linux-PPC CD that I should buy. I'm quite willing to give linux another whirl (this time on a more capable machine). My original plan was to install OS X Server and get an ideal environment of UNIX & OpenStep with the occaisional use of BlueBox, but something seems to have interfered with my plans. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:01:32 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77gups$ofo$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> <77gi1r$8om$1@decius.ultra.net> <369BCF0C.CA94453F@klassy.com> In article <369BCF0C.CA94453F@klassy.com>, Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> wrote: >Um, Half Life uses teh Quake engine. So ya, Quake can do this whats your >point? Do I have to explain this again? Go read the whole thread, would you? Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:31 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77h033$bg6$14@blue.hex.net> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:31 GMT On 9 Jan 99 00:14:15, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote: >In article <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu>, > giddings@nospam.genetics.utah.edu (Michael Giddings) writes: > In <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > > > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server > > > in support of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much > > > more quickly. > > > > Hmmm, seems one needs to re-read the mythical man month! > > I'll admit I haven't read it. However, I have a pretty good > understanding of the principle, having managed several software > projects involving multiple developers. However, I am not in > agreement that the argument necessarily applies to open-source > projects. Simply look at the progression of linux: it has clearly > benefitted by the _large_ number of people working on it. And one > of the reasons for that is there are many people working on > different aspects of it. > >Sure it applies to Linux. The premise of the Mythical Man Month is >that if you have 100 people working on a project, and add another 100 >people, it won't get done twice as fast, it might even take longer. > >But what if you add 10000 people to the project? Perhaps then it will >get done twice as fast, just by raw luck, The problem that happened with OS/360 was that they were building a single, rather huge, monolithic application. That is a task where communications between designers is a critical bottleneck. And it is pretty clear that doubling the number of programmers won't halve the development time. On the other hand, if you have a "project" decoupled into a set of pieces where development can take place relatively independently, adding extra people to the overall project can indeed result in more rapid results. In the case of Linux, there are a number of well-defined and fairly well-documented APIs that separate different pieces of the "Linux Puzzle." - Some people work on "the kernel." In fact, this overstates how much of a monolith the kernel is; there are various subsystems that seem to attract individual attention. And the "loadable kernel module" interface means that *many* people can work on device drivers for different devices. - Others work on the basic library, LIBC. - Others work on the compiler 'suite,' GCC/EGCS. - Development efforts for XFree86 are almost entirely independent of Linux. - GUI applications don't depend on XFree86 developers, as there is a well documented API abstraction standing in between. Furthermore, GUI applications are seldom written to talk straight to X; they usually have another library in between. The list could go on, establishing many opportunities for parallel development. Given 10,000 developers, there would probably be room on the "pieces" mentioned above for a few people per "subproject;" to be sure, deploying 10,000 people tomorrow to work on the kernel would be counterproductive. It would be rather tough to absorb 10,000 developers "in a day." Note that this represents on the order of $1 billion worth of staff being 'tossed' at Linux for a year. In similar fashion, it would be difficult for the community to "absorb" and *usefully deploy* the monetary sum of $1B. If, however, amounts came in in bits and pieces, deployed "at" a wide variety of projects, there may very well be ways of absorbing significant funding and actually using it for useful purposes. It would be more likely to start with $1M getting deployed, and then $10M, and then $100M. And giving kernel development $1B would be *highly* unlikely to have substantial effect to improve anything, much as throwing 10,000 developers at it would have minimal positive impact. On the other hand, 10,000 "warm bodies" could represent an opporunity to write up and implement regression and other tests, and provide a framework to "make sure things are right," not unlike the way that GNUStep now has, integrated into the CVS archives, code that works with the "Greg" testing framework to verify that the code conforms to specs. The GNUStep tests may not be a complete set; that doesn't prevent them from being useful... -- Personally, I think my choice in the mostest-superlative-computer wars has to be the HP-48 series of calculators. They'll run almost anything. And if they can't, while I'll just plug a Linux box into the serial port and load up the HP-48 VT-100 emulator. (By jdege@winternet.com, Jeff Dege) cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/fssp.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:21:17 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77gvut$bg6$4@blue.hex.net> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775rgr$1o8$1@crib.corepower.com> <36967cba.0@news.depaul.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:21:17 GMT On 8 Jan 99 21:46:34 GMT, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote: >So has anyone decided to drop Display Ghostscript in favor of a >function-based, non-interpreted graphics engine? Seems that'd >make the most sense, and perhaps a lot easier. If I were to say "XRaw," would you interpret the first letter as meaning something horrible? Apparently, the "XRaw" interface has been progressing more quickly than the DGS interface... -- if (argc > 1 && strcmp(argv[1], "-advice") == 0) { printf("Don't Panic!\n"); exit(42); } (Arnold Robbins in the LJ of February '95, describing RCS) cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:10 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77h02e$bg6$10@blue.hex.net> References: <36967cba.0@news.depaul.edu> <19990108202917.05605.00004784@ng-ch1.aol.com> <776oa3$kgb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:10 GMT On 9 Jan 1999 05:09:23 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote: > >: You can check for a status report on this at <www.gnustep.org> though >: this may not be up-to-date--they've been awfully busy coding and too >: busy I believe to keep the web site current. > >The unofficial site is also worth a look: > > http://gnustep.current.nu/ It looks like it hasn't been updated in a while, unfortunately. -- if (argc > 1 && strcmp(argv[1], "-advice") == 0) { printf("Don't Panic!\n"); exit(42); } (Arnold Robbins in the LJ of February '95, describing RCS) cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use >Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? Install Leafnode, and use whatever newsreader you like as an "offline" reader for your "offline" spool. Or install slrnpull, which is oriented towards slrn. There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a news browser, and vice versa. That's called Careful Design. -- "I'd say the probability of Windows containing a backdoor is about the same a spreadsheet containing a flight simulator." --Phil Hunt <philh@vision25.demon.co.uk> cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:43 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77h03f$bg6$20@blue.hex.net> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <stone-0901990121430001@rc-pm3-1-38.enetis.net> <joe.ragosta-0901990921580001@elk61.dol.net> <stone-0901992130230001@rc-pm3-2-09.enetis.net> <779cbp$4lg$1@crib.corepower.com> <36985705.9EC52FC6@cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:23:43 GMT On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:30:13 -0800, John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> wrote: >And because Apple is showing itself to be unreliable with respect to its >stated strategies. Apple have shown pretty consistantly that the one >thing you can count on them NOT doing is what they told you they're >going to do. Not that this should be new to NeXT fans -- Steve has made >a profession out of it. And people were suggesting, a few weeks ago, that Linux developers should invest money if they were to expect to see YB tools available, and that it would be silly to expect an "Open Source" YB. At that time, I indicated that it would be tough to trust Apple not to pull a "bait'n'switch" when they don't have much invested in having code run in that environment. The recent events suggest that not only would it be foolish for Linux developers, to whom Apple doesn't owe much "duty of care," to trust them, but, well beyond that, the Apple customers that have already trusted Apple are having their trust betrayed. -- "Absolutely nothing should be concluded from these figures except that no conclusion can be drawn from them." (By Joseph L. Brothers, Linux/PowerPC Project) cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: jwct@magma.ca (J.W. Corey Tamas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Games, games, games! Message-ID: <jwct-1201992134470001@port58.magma.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <1dlhibt.ljz5qpx9yf3bN@host-209-214-29-16.bct.bellsouth.net> <petrich-1101991951160001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <jwct-1101992301480001@port21.magma.ca> <kTAm2.21099$Js2.5484@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <jwct-1201990031030001@port21.magma.ca> <stevehix-1201991540000001@192.168.1.10> Organization: Ace Biscuit Web Solutions Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:30:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:30:56 EDT In article <stevehix-1201991540000001@192.168.1.10>, stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote: > In article <jwct-1201990031030001@port21.magma.ca>, jwct@magma.ca (J.W. > Corey Tamas) wrote: > > > In article <kTAm2.21099$Js2.5484@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>, "Chris Van > > Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> wrote: > > > > > Its a mac newsgroup isn't it? > > > > A newsgroup about action games for the Mac platform, yeah. > > Which one is? > > You've only posted to three different groups... My mistake & apologies to all. It was unintentional. C
From: Pi Times a Million <3141593@frames.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! (N/T) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:26:42 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369BE840.42F6@frames.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <B2C0367C9668BE162@eris.dw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:17:08 GMT ...
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> <77h033$bg6$14@blue.hex.net> Message-ID: <QITm2.3933$xq4.985@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:40:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:40:48 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77h033$bg6$14@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:- > In the case of Linux, there are a number of well-defined and fairly > well-documented APIs that separate different pieces of the "Linux > Puzzle." > > - Some people work on "the kernel." In fact, this overstates how much of > a monolith the kernel is; there are various subsystems that seem to > attract individual attention. And the "loadable kernel module" > interface means that *many* people can work on device drivers for > different devices. > > - Others work on the basic library, LIBC. > > - Others work on the compiler 'suite,' GCC/EGCS. - Linux is the kernel, the rest of the tools are GNU for the most part. libc5 is fast disappearing as the c library in linux distributions, being replaced by glibc2. To date, Debian, RedHat, S.u.S.E, Stampede, and some lesser dists have abandoned libc5 for glibc2. The only "major" linux dist that still relies on linking it's binaries against libc5 is Slackware. Glibc2 is not specifically a part of "Linux" as you phrase it. It is a GNU library, bound by the GPL. Debian Hurd will also use glibc2 as it's c library. GCC and EGCS have nothing to do with linux other than they are the two compilers that are free and thus can be distributed with the linux kernel source code with violating the license (GPL) that it is distributed under. You can read all about gcc and egcs on the. I don't mean to sound testy, but I really bristle when people associate freely available GNU resources with linux. I use GCC and/or EGCS in FreeBSD, OPENSTEP, Solaris, OpenBSD, and Linux; they certainly aren't dependent upon any particular os being present, these are standard, open source c compilers.
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1101991534260001@wil109.dol.net> <369A6E4F.8108C326@ultranet.com> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> <mrjones-1201991353400001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <UPTm2.1438$wm2.4518858@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:50:48 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:48:20 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne Actually it is not. There are still reports of even with 2.21 of ping spikes on high bandwidth connections, one of them happens to be mine. Funny Quake II, Half-Life, Blood2, Shogo, BattleZone, EAW, Combat Flight Sim, World War II Fighters all are smooth as silk. Bill F. Mark Haase <mrjones@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:mrjones-1201991353400001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com... >In article <HKzm2.976$wm2.3546184@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, "Bill Frisbee" ><bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> wrote: > >> I have been patching Unreal at the hope of playing it someday but am still >> waiting now even after MANY many months. I got Half-Life, loaded it and was >> playing Online in 10 minutes.... I still cannot have a good game of Unreal >> online... and I have 2 cable modems! >> >> Bill F. > >And I'm sure you're blaming it on somebody else because it's definitely >not your fault? > >+-----------------------------+ >| Mark Haase / >| savar@mindspring.com \ >| mhaase@pace.atl.ga.us / >+----------------------------+
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:23:48 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1201991723480001@dynamic27.pm02.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <77g7o7$pi1$1@decius.ultra.net> <77g9f4$gs3$1@hole.sdsu.edu> In article <77g9f4$gs3$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) wrote: > I haven't tried out a new three-dee game since Jedi Knight a couple of > years back. Usually what happened when I tried a new entry to the genre > was this: I'd play for a few levels legitimately, then I'd starting > cheating (if possible) just to make the game go quicker; finally I'd > give up on the game entirely. I got through Wolf3D, the original Doom, > Dark Forces, and Jedi Knight without resorting to cheating. I never > finished Marathon (but did get through most of it), Durandal, Infinity, > Doom II, Heretic, or Hexen. (I gave up on Infinity and Hexen _very_ > quickly.) I played the Quake demo to the end but never was interested > enough to buy the full game. And since now I haven't any computer good > enough to play the newest games I can't say anything for the latest > and greatest. One interesting thing I've found is that framerate has a lot to do with it, which I never realized before. I figured this out when playing Unreal and mrore recently Klingon Honor Guard (which I won a free copy of). In these games, almost right away I turned on god mode, which also tallies with them getting about 10fps average on my computer... I didn't do this in Quake, Doom, Marathon, etc., where I got much better framerates. I've definitely found high framerate helping a great deal in multiplayer (which is well known), but more recently decided that it's just as important to enjoying single player. I also figured out that low framerate may be the biggest factor in inducing nausea when playing such games--if you find a 3D game of this type difficult and frustrating, or nausea inducing, chances are you're getting a low framerate. -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:00:55 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77guon$7nd$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <petrich-1101991916040001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <MHzm2.975$wm2.3545555@lwnws01 <1dlhz4a.1bog7kfr0z14nN@p44.pm3c03.pm.dimcom.net> In article <1dlhz4a.1bog7kfr0z14nN@p44.pm3c03.pm.dimcom.net>, Beemer Dan <moto667@dimensional.com> wrote: >Bill Frisbee <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> wrote: > >> You honestly cannot compair Marathon to Half-Life they are years apart... > >Lets see how good the story is in half life. It's actually quite good. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov Sender: RajLamba@aol.com Subject: cmsg cancel <04019921.1427@aol.com> Control: cancel <04019921.1427@aol.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Message-ID: <cancel.04019921.1427@aol.com> Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 03:55:07 GMT Canceled by news@news.msfc.nasa.gov
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: 13 Jan 1999 04:31:49 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77h7jl$nnf$1@news.digifix.com> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> <36929412.E13211D3@rebisoft.nospam.com> In-Reply-To: <36929412.E13211D3@rebisoft.nospam.com> On 01/05/99, Jack Nutting wrote: >Scott Anguish wrote: >> All I know for sure about the Intel product is what I was told >> by Ernie at the BOF. >> >> "There are no plans at this time to productize the Intel >> port." >> >> Privately I've been told where the blame for this lays. I'm >> not sure that I believe it, but its interesting fodder. > >OK Scott, don't tease us! Give us the dirt! > Nope... because as I said, I'm not sure that I believe it. Oh, and to Mark Eaton.. As far as I can see, the blame lands right on an individual in the QTML department... yeah.. thats it.. :-) No... It isn't any conspiracy thing... its definately an Apple choice. I doubt very much that it has anything to do with Microsoft, rather an ideology issue. I can understand, and perhaps agree with the limiting of OSX Server to a single Intel release, but not the reniging on the 1.0 release. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 13 Jan 1999 04:33:06 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77h7m2$nni$1@news.digifix.com> References: <joe.ragosta-1201991553040001@wil80.dol.net> <B2C1419F-2122E@206.165.43.33> In-Reply-To: <B2C1419F-2122E@206.165.43.33> On 01/12/99, "Lawson English" wrote: >Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said: > >>Posting to this group on this topic won't help because everyone here >>agrees (at least everyone I've see). The only ones who disagree are the >>decision makers at Apple. :-( >> >>It's worth an e-mail to leadership@apple.com--although it probably won't >>do much good. > >If the experience of OpenDoc/GX/Cyberdog/HyperCard users is any indication, >that address is heavily filtered. You're better off writing a snailmail >letter, instead. Uh... what problem do Hypercard users have? That was a rumor. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <369b3def.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 12 Jan 1999 12:19:59 GMT nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) wrote: >What is it baout the name OS X SERVER dont you undersdtand. It is a >Server. The end user OS will be out shortly. And I suppose you would believe it if Apple said that the color of the sky is orange? A rose by any other name ... Unless you know something everyone else doesn't, the operating system that Apple call MacOS X server is still essentially the great workstation operating system formerly known as OPENSTEP.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 12 Jan 99 23:25:05 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C18A54-11998@206.165.43.119> References: <77h7m2$nni$1@news.digifix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> said: >>If the experience of OpenDoc/GX/Cyberdog/HyperCard users is any >indication, >>that address is heavily filtered. You're better off writing a >snailmail >>letter, instead. > > Uh... what problem do Hypercard users have? That was a rumor. > Getting messages directly to leadership@apple.com. They were being bounced, as I recall. And Those Who Should Know say for sure that HyperCard was so far back on the backburner that it wasn't going anywhere UNTIL Jobs started getting a zillion letters. Apparently he wasn't even aware that HC was being stalled. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:10:46 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369BD676.B4380C92@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77ghv1$uch$1@decius.ultra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Josh Brandt wrote: > It appears to be similar, yes. It has some eye-candy, like 3-d characters > instead of sprites, and their mouths move when they talk, but there appear > to be a few states they can be in. And if you shoot a guard once (and don't > kill him...) he doesn't immediately turn on you, like the Bobs tend to... Uh, yeah, they do. One of my favorite ways to play Half-Life is to have High Noon with a security guard. He stands there, I put one pistol shot in his chest. I like to see whether I can switch to the shotgun and take off his head before he gets a shot in. I usually win, but hey. I'm a fast draw. And he likes to take time to say "It didn't have to be this way" before he cranks off the 9mm rounds. MJP
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan12102136@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> <77b5r8$6st$1@cleavage.canuck.com> <SCOTT.99Jan11094245@slave.doubleu.com> <77emjf$7s$3@news.panix.com> In-reply-to: sal@panix.com's message of 12 Jan 1999 05:29:19 GMT Date: 12 Jan 99 10:21:36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:59:50 PDT In article <77emjf$7s$3@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes: On 11 Jan 99 09:42:45, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote: >It's worse than that - without a free or nearly free runtime, how >do we hook new customers in the first place? We can go the >old-fashioned Scott, what is the viability of porting to WO and using the Java client interface? You would have to rewrite the UI for your App using Swing, but you get to keep IB+PB when you do so. That would allow you to deploy the 25tpm version on NT and ship the client portion anywhere Java runs. Nil, since our product is basically a word processor. So WO is about as viable a solution as it would be for AFS's WriteUp... The only thing I've wondered about WOF is how it handles allowing IB to target Java/Swing. Does it emit anything that you can use seperately from WOF, or does WOF do .nib translation on-the-fly? [I think it's easy to see where _that_ question is going :-).] -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cancel <SCOTT.99Jan12103434@slave.doubleu.com> Control: cancel <SCOTT.99Jan12103434@slave.doubleu.com> Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan12105610@slave.doubleu.com> Date: 12 Jan 99 10:56:10 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:59:53 PDT
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Date: 12 Jan 99 10:51:53 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan12105153@slave.doubleu.com> References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> <ygczp7phd6i.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77epki$aqd$1@camel0.mindspring.com> In-reply-to: "Mark Eaton"'s message of Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:21:45 -0800 In article <77epki$aqd$1@camel0.mindspring.com>, "Mark Eaton" <markeaton@mindspring.com> writes: In article <ygczp7phd6i.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>, smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) wrote: > The interesting thing about this is the influence scared people > at Apple had on the big third-party developers, not the reverse. It just has to be those nasty old Apple people. Never mind that nearly the entire executive staff are former NeXT employees. Hey, don't underestimate the amount of misunderstanding (on either side). As of WWDC, you could corral an Apple-Apple person one minute and a NeXT-Apple person the next minute and get _completely_ contradictory information. It's like they were on different planets. I've no idea how things are these days. I do know that even some of the people working on the NeXT tech have no idea what other people working on the NeXT tech are doing. Apple's a pretty darn bizarre place (all these Silicon Valley companies are, but Apple is bizarre even by Silicon Valley terms). Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan12104501@slave.doubleu.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <77eqgl$iqv$1@remarQ.com> In-reply-to: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net's message of 12 Jan 1999 06:36:05 GMT Date: 12 Jan 99 10:45:01 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:59:52 PDT In article <77eqgl$iqv$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) writes: From a developer's standpoint, this has gone from writing once and deploying on the two major desktop platforms, to maybe writing once and shipping direct to landfill. Aaiigh! ROTFL! Are you going to bet your house to develop for this market? Too late... -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Pi Times a Million <3141593@frames.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:26:11 -0500 Organization: ... Message-ID: <369BE822.3973@frames.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77d0cq$j64$1@news.erinet.com> <B2C0367A9668BE121@eris.dw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 00:16:37 GMT ...
From: hajo@Zierke.com (Hans-Joachim Zierke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy,de.alt.gruppenkasper Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Followup-To: de.alt.gruppenkasper Date: 13 Jan 1999 01:32:55 GMT Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=FCro_f=FCr_ungew=F6hnliche_Ma=DFnahmen?= Message-ID: <slrn79nttv.r1.hajo@hersland.Zierke.com> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jeaux schrieb: > Wanted: a stable O/S for Intel oriented computers which will obselete the > Microsoft Abominations. Bevor Du Dich auf die Suche machst, möchtest Du die Funktion einer Newsgroups-Zeile verstehen. Ich möchte allerhöflichst nachfragen, ob dieser Herr° in de.alt.gruppenkasper willkommen geheißen wird. hajo -- Ich hab hier 'ne Pressemitteilung rumliegen, wo Microsoft verkündet, daß das Erscheinungsdatum von Windows 2000 sich auf das zweite Quartal 1901 verzögern wird. -- Hanno Foest
From: ssc@stclair.com (Stephen St.Clair) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:24:13 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Message-ID: <369c8173.1891635@news.tiac.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> <joe.ragosta-1201990649320001@elk34.dol.net> > >It looks like Apple is giving up Mac OS for Intel -- probably for ever. > >It's a stupid move, if so. They have the potential to pick up a >significant amount of market share with Mac OS X Server for Intel and I >don't see them cannibalizing Mac hardware sales. > >Oh, well, you can't expect them to get _everything_ right. > I'm sorry to hear that myself. I recall reading in one of Dvorak's columns that years ago Apple engineers succeeded in porting one of the early incarnations of the Mac OS to Intel hardware and were horrified to discover that it ran faster on Intel machines than it did on Macs. They quickly scrapped that plan. I wonder if the same thing didn't happen here. Just asking. Steve
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 13 Jan 1999 11:27:35 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <77hvv7$a7s$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77dudg$ed7@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1201991245320001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote: >In article <77dudg$ed7@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > >>Oh, so *you're* the guy. 8^) >> >>Greg > >Actually, I think I would be too...though the good news is I will be >getting MacOSX Server, so...any body want to send me some demo apps in a >month? I'll even pay $10 for a demo CD with all the apps on it. Strongly seconded - I think a lot of people would pay for that CD, since it saves you all the hassle of dowloading the demos/apps. And while you're at it throw in some MocOSXS goodies like docs, and examples. Actually, maybe contacting the Peanuts folks would be a good idea. And by the way, here's another person looking forward to PasteUp on OSXS. I already have the old ad framed on my office wall :-) Best regards, Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: David Griffiths <dgriff@hursley.ibm.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:44:40 +0000 Organization: Primitive Software Ltd. Message-ID: <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Giddings wrote: > A last note: > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in support > of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. What do people perceive as the point of Gnustep? Is it to reproduce the look and feel and ease of use of NextStep, or is it to reproduce the development environment? Dave
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:11:56 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> In article <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > This hits my understanding _right_ on the head. At the BOF, they > ("they"==Apple people) said that they were reevaluating where > YellowBox/NT fits in their business plan, or something to that effect. > Sorry Scott, but "something to that effect" is not good enough here. Ernie was clear about this: to rephrase it in your words "they are reevaluating where YellowBox fits in their *marketing* plan". What he did not say in any way, shape or form is that "YB is dead". > At WWDC last May, the line was that they were working on a $20 > YellowBox/NT deployment package, and were hoping to have something in > six months or so. > And some of us have seen concrete evidence that they're working on this -- I'm sorry I can't say more. > My read is that Apple has decided that it's a hardware company, and > that extraneous stuff like YellowBox/NT will just have to wait. > My read is very different... they're still dealing withthe original backlash against the Rhapsody strategy, and are looking for a way to present YB in the same way that they've repackaged MacOS X. Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca><772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca><7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:10:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:10:56 PDT malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > [*reasonable man* logic - snipped] > What do the recent announcements mean for us? That we have to again consider > our business plans and roll-out timescales. For most, yes. Is this a Bad > Thing? Yes. Do they mean that we should all pack up our toys and go home? > For me, I think no. Put them into cold storage if you like, but in the > meantime find other ways of leveraging your experience and skills -- there > are plenty of opportunities in the YB world, whether in the old NeXT > marketplaces, or in the new arenas opened with Apple's customer base. Ask > Helios what they think. Mmalc, old boy, you've just talked yourself out of the MacOS X marketspace! Any alternative plan of icing years of investment in YB is *no plan*. Cold storage is an _event horizon_ similar to a black hole. If you're not revving your codebase in-sync with MacOS X the costs to go back and iterate through the revs at a later date is vert significant. Add into these costs re-implementing whole library swap-outs, as Apple changes technologies - the re-entry fee becomes quite high. You've really put a good face on the situation Apple's dealt the YB community. But that is all it is... -r
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:33:48 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca><772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca><7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> In article <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com>, rr6013.yahoo.com wrote: > Mmalc, old boy, you've just talked yourself out of the MacOS X > marketspace! > No I didn't. If I did anything I talked some folks out of jettisoning their code. I didn't say what I'm doing. > Any alternative plan of icing years of investment in YB is *no plan*. > Cold storage is an _event horizon_ similar to a black hole. If you're > not revving your codebase in-sync with MacOS X the costs to go back and > iterate through the revs at a later date is vert significant. > Did I say anything about "no cost"? > Add into these costs re-implementing whole library swap-outs, as Apple > changes technologies - the re-entry fee becomes quite high. > Thank you for stating the obvious. The associated costs will, of course, depend on exactly what technologies change, and how soon. Folks have already, however, dealt with the change from NEXTSTEP to OPENSTEP. Greg managed to exhume WriteUp and PasteUp. If a market opportunity presents itself you'll feel silly if you didn't at least create a permanent archive of your code. > You've really put a good face on the situation Apple's dealt the YB > community. But that is all it is... > Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or completely misrepresenting what has been said. mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 13 Jan 1999 13:53:08 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77i8g4$ii4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <36967cba.0@news.depaul.edu> <19990108202917.05605.00004784@ng-ch1.aol.com> <776oa3$kgb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <77h02e$bg6$10@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@hex.net> wrote: : On 9 Jan 1999 05:09:23 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: : >WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote: : > : >: You can check for a status report on this at <www.gnustep.org> though : >: this may not be up-to-date--they've been awfully busy coding and too : >: busy I believe to keep the web site current. : > : >The unofficial site is also worth a look: : > : > http://gnustep.current.nu/ : It looks like it hasn't been updated in a while, unfortunately. The news page, at http://gnustep.current.nu/news.html, was updated on December 14, 1998. I guess you have an even lower tolerance for old news than I ;-). John
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:22:40 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <sg.od.in-1301990922410001@10.1.11.85> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <petrich-1201991252340001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77ghp5$ola$1@plo.sierra.com> <369BD3EF.43BBCB49@ericsson.com> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <369BD3EF.43BBCB49@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Earl Malmrose wrote: > > > > Loren Petrich wrote in message ... > > > I would not be surprised if Half-Life uses a similar approach for what > > >its NPC's say; does it have a NPC state model much more elaborate than > > >Marathon's? > > > > Not for generic NPC's. But there are special NPC's that have very specific > > details to converse with you about. Telling you specific things like where > > to go or what to do next. They'll tell you to go through the door, then > > they'll go open the door for you. Or there will be two of them, and they'll > > take turns telling you things. > > Those interactions are very clever and aren't anything like the model > Loren described. The Marathon conversational model consists of static > settings assigned to NPC attributes, whereas the interactions you're > describing are scripted into the game by the designers. These scripts > are just one piece of the larger purpose, which is that Half-Life is > more of a story than a game. Indeed one of the most compelling things about Marathon was the story, which you only got snatches of as you went through and played it.. there's an unbelievable website that not only tells as much of the ongoing story as they were able to collate from playing the game, but also debate on various aspects and character personalities involved in it and hypothesis as to potential motives, outcomes, etc etc. there's wayyyyyyyyy more depth to this game than is at first obvious, and ot's one of the reasons that upon recieving Marathon Infinity I lost several days to playing it.. then, later on in the game when I discovered that there were several paths THROUGH the game and different routes one can take in the process as you proceed, I had to go back and start over and actively LOOK for them. (not merely secret areas I'd missed but whole entire sections of map that bring you to different stages of the game instead. Don't even go there about storyline, because Marathon has simply the best 'storyline' and the most depth of any first-person shooter that I've *ever* seen. -=- Then of course there's MYST which is in a class all by itself. :D -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:17:43 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77ia16$p2s@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >Ernie was clear about this: to rephrase it in your words "they are >reevaluating where YellowBox fits in their *marketing* plan". Last time Apple said that, OSXS/Intel disappeared. And before that, countless technologies. It's a code word. >What he did not say in any way, shape or form is that "YB is dead". Because Ernie is not in a position to make that decision. You have to deal with what you know about the intentions and motivations of those who *are* in a position to make that decision. Frankly, the track record is not good. Mmalc, I like you and respect your opinions, but I do honestly find them a bit naive. Then again, you just spent a week in the RDF. Perhaps a few weeks back in your native fog wil clear your head. 8^) Greg
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:35:48 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ib03$nt9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > And some of us have seen concrete evidence that they're working on this -- > I'm sorry I can't say more. Malcolm, I respect your opinions, but quite frankly even if you're entirely correct the time is long past when such vague reassurances [from Apple, not from you] are acceptable. They've been "working on this" for over two years -- an eternity in the computer world. They now have something that's ready to ship, and still they're playing these games? Now is the time to ship YB at competitive prices and support it. Doing otherwise is tantamount to saying to the people that matter -- the customers -- that they never will. I don't care what they're telling you under NDA; I care what I can pull my credit card out to buy. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:49:16 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ibp9$ogr$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca><772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca><7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > > You've really put a good face on the situation Apple's dealt the YB > > community. But that is all it is... > > Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > completely misrepresenting what has been said. One could also argue, perhaps with more justification, that people have been under-reacting for way too long while Apple played games, and that today's "over-reaction" is just playing catch-up. Misrepresenting what's been said? Perhaps. But actions speak louder than words, whether those words were mis-represented or not. And Apple's actions as seen by potential customers do not in any way, shape, or form denote a commitment to YB. Nor do they appear to denote such a commitment as seen by many developers, from what I can gauge from their words here. Even more tellingly, there's precious few developers still around to even complain. With OS X Server ready to ship, Apple has an opportunity to make its commitment concrete, by shipping YB at a competitive price and supporting it. If I can't go out and buy it except at a prohibitive price it does not matter how vehemently Apple reps protested their commitment to YB at the BOF or elsewhere. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Ken Macdonald <macdonald@cfc.dnd.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:42:00 -0500 Organization: Collčge des Forces canadiennes - Canadian Forces College Message-ID: <369CBEC8.C0C811@cfc.dnd.ca> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <77g81h$lgf$1@plo.sierra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MiNT (add LiNUX and TOS, heat and serve -> MiNT) Earl Malmrose wrote: > > Jeaux wrote in message <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com>... > >Wanted: a stable O/S for Intel oriented computers which will obselete the > >Microsoft Abominations. > > BeOS.
Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> From: jfb@visi.com () Message-ID: <ye3n2.4566$TO5.127334@ptah.visi.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:47:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:47:42 CDT joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes: >That reminds me of an old game I used to play years ago. You had to travel >around the universe picking up minerals. There were something like 6 or 7 >races in the universe and each of them had different characteristics. You >started out by staffing your ship and training the crew, but you had to >keep in mind the different characteristics of the races. >Each race behaved differently, depending on how you treated them or >whether you had any on your crew. >Does anyone know what this game is? Starflight. JFB -- James Felix Black <http://www.visi.com/~jfb> "I can't stand this proliferation of paperwork. It's useless to fight the forms. You've got to kill the people producing them."
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> Message-ID: <Dj3n2.3993$xq4.970@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:53:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:53:07 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:- > That reminds me of an old game I used to play years ago. You had to travel > around the universe picking up minerals. There were something like 6 or 7 > races in the universe and each of them had different characteristics. You > started out by staffing your ship and training the crew, but you had to > keep in mind the different characteristics of the races. > > Each race behaved differently, depending on how you treated them or > whether you had any on your crew. > > Does anyone know what this game is?- Starflight. One of the great pc games of all time. Once back in 1990 while severely depressed over a failed relationship, I called in sick to work five consecutive days while I stayed home playing Starflight and throwing beers. :)
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 13 Jan 1999 14:10:35 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77i9gq$l8l$1@news.panix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <775ofc$pbm@shelob.afs.com> <77723m$6sf$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <779edu$3pd@shelob.afs.com> <3698BC79.B85EA23F@tone.ca> <77b5r8$6st$1@cleavage.canuck.com> <SCOTT.99Jan11094245@slave.doubleu.com> <77emjf$7s$3@news.panix.com> <SCOTT.99Jan12102136@slave.doubleu.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 14:10:35 GMT On 12 Jan 99 10:21:36, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote: >The only thing I've wondered about WOF is how it handles allowing IB >to target Java/Swing. Does it emit anything that you can use >seperately from WOF, or does WOF do .nib translation on-the-fly? [I >think it's easy to see where _that_ question is going :-).] I asked this of someone (Victor Nape?) at the NYC WebObjects demo. I was told that IB+PB can be used to create 100% pure Java that can be deployed anywhere. And yes, your Swing UI will float with the class code. efore they "switch focus" and make Java the main YB language. They are not redoing all of YB in Java.
From: agave_@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:09:21 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77igf6$t26$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77ib03$nt9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <77ib03$nt9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > Now is the time to ship YB at competitive prices and support it. > And who's going to buy your Yellow Box product? The only markets you can sell into for the next year are MacOS X Server (which is a _server_ product no matter what it's capable of) and Windows. I don't know how many people are going to pop $1K for an OS just to run one or two killer apps so that leaves you with Windows. They haven't worked out the licensing costs yet, or the marketing, for Windows so it's too early to say what will happen there. If you wanted to develop a YB product and ship it, chances are you'll have to do both under NT for the next year. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, what is Apple going to tell their (non-YB) developers? "Ummm, yeah... we have this killer development environment but any products you develop will have to be done on our new server OS or Windows NT and those products' only market in the meantime are Windows users." _That's_ going to fly well. If YB is going to hit primetime, it won't be until _after_ MacOS X ships at the end of this year. -- Ian P. Cardenas BLaCKSMITH, inc. Software Engineer -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:48:09 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1301991148090001@wil114.dol.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> <Dj3n2.3993$xq4.970@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <Dj3n2.3993$xq4.970@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:- > > That reminds me of an old game I used to play years ago. You had to travel > > around the universe picking up minerals. There were something like 6 or 7 > > races in the universe and each of them had different characteristics. You > > started out by staffing your ship and training the crew, but you had to > > keep in mind the different characteristics of the races. > > > > Each race behaved differently, depending on how you treated them or > > whether you had any on your crew. > > > > Does anyone know what this game is?- > > Starflight. One of the great pc games of all time. Once back in 1990 while > severely depressed over a failed relationship, I called in sick to work five > consecutive days while I stayed home playing Starflight and throwing beers. > :) That's the one. Thanks. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:49:49 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: My thoughts on MacOSX/Intel, and other Apple cross-platform issues Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1301991149490001@wil114.dol.net> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0901992210300001@term5-24.vta.west.net> <77b6dc$qft$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <77c3sl$56t$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <SPAMLESSforrest-1001992305470001@term6-40.vta.west.net> <369A1C90.D9B48392@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan11111007@slave.doubleu.com> <tbrown-1101992105430001@d209.ecr.net> <joe.ragosta-1201990649320001@elk34.dol.net> <369c8173.1891635@news.tiac.net> In article <369c8173.1891635@news.tiac.net>, ssc@stclair.com wrote: > > > >It looks like Apple is giving up Mac OS for Intel -- probably for ever. > > > >It's a stupid move, if so. They have the potential to pick up a > >significant amount of market share with Mac OS X Server for Intel and I > >don't see them cannibalizing Mac hardware sales. > > > >Oh, well, you can't expect them to get _everything_ right. > > > I'm sorry to hear that myself. I recall reading in one of Dvorak's > columns that years ago Apple engineers succeeded in porting one of the > early incarnations of the Mac OS to Intel hardware and were horrified > to discover that it ran faster on Intel machines than it did on Macs. > They quickly scrapped that plan. I wonder if the same thing didn't > happen here. Just asking. Actually, I don't think that was the issue. The project you're referring to was called "Star Trek". They had a demo, but never had a full, working OS, AFAIK. The real problem wasn't performance (that could have been solved with a few delay loops...). It was that none of the existing software would have worked on it. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Are they going to let OS X run on an Intel? Date: 13 Jan 99 10:00:51 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C21F55-1FE20@206.165.43.222> References: <Thingfishhhh-1201992306570001@ppp-206-170-29-178.wnck11.pacbel l.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy [cross-posted to cs.next.advocacy because I can't comprehend why anyone would discuss the politics and technical issues involved in the cross-platform-ness of OpenStep technology without including current OpenStep users and developers in the discussion] thingfishhhh <Thingfishhhh@yahoo.com> said: >In article <19990112181500.12903.00010695@ng-fd1.aol.com>, >ssbtract@aol.com (SSBTract) wrote: > >> Absolutely not. Apple will not be porting over the MacOS to Intel >> hardware any time in the forseeable future because of the damage it >would mean >> to their hardware sales. The MacOS represents their most important >leverage in >> maintaining their existing customer base who like the "look and feel" of >the >> software. > >They HAD Rhapsody (DR2) working on Intel boxes, and it was'nt a "port", it >was native code. > >Perhaps the decision to kill Intel was based on hardware sales - or >perhaps the manpower needed to continue the Intel side of the development >was too high to justify? Until we hear the *real* story behind killing it, >it's all conjecture. > >Jobs has shown consistency in his decisions in that he will make decisions >like this to help support their existing platform - yes, it would be cool >to have MacOSX for every computer ever made, but how would it help Apple >if they stretch their R&D and engineering too thin doing so? > >My personal feeling is he killed for this very reason - they just can't >afford to develop for two platforms at the same time. Maybe in the future >they can - but you have to rememeber Apple does not have the vast >resources Microsoft or Intel has - in fact, when you visit the Apple >campus, it strikes you how small they really are, and how much they have >accomplished so far with so little compared to behemoths like Microsoft. > >I would tend to think Intel development of an OS would be more time >consuming and difficult than the development for Apple branded machines - >look how problematic it is for Microsoft to squash bugs and get code out >the door. Apple would have to support *all* of the third party drivers and >peripherals and chips out there - making the project swell ***huge*** >compared to the *known* platform of the Mac. > >It's VERY similar to the bitching and moaning from the Mac community when >they announced MacOS 8 would not run on older processors - yes, it *would* >be nice to be able to support EVERY Mac ever made, but the technological >advances and cost of including ALL the platforms made the project >impossible to do. Plus, it was expecting FAR too much out of the Apple >engineers to make a ten year old Mac run the current PPC technology run >with any speed that would be acceptable. > >Perhaps later on, if Apple continues to prosper and grow under Jobs, they >can restart Intel development. I tend to think that software sales of a >stable MacOSX could easily offset any loss of hardware sales Apple would >experience from releasing Intel code - there's a LOT of potential sales >out there. Perhaps Apple just can't afford to reach them...yet. > >Or, there may be issues not talked about between Apple and Intel - maybe >Intel pulled a deal on Apple that Apple did on BE, and made it impossible >for them to engineer for the new generation of chips. No-one knows yet. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:39:55 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> In article <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) wrote: > In article <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com>, > Earl Malmrose <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >>I'll expand what I wrote earlier about the Unreal guys-- > > > >I think you mean Half-Life. > > Yep, what you said. > > >Yes, that is for the generic people. There are many others throughout the > >game that have very specific things to tell you, show you, etc., that are > >very context sensitive and unique. > > This is similar to Unreal (the Nali, specifically), who act differently > depending on how you approach them and whether you've shot any of them on > that level, and things like that. That reminds me of an old game I used to play years ago. You had to travel around the universe picking up minerals. There were something like 6 or 7 races in the universe and each of them had different characteristics. You started out by staffing your ship and training the crew, but you had to keep in mind the different characteristics of the races. Each race behaved differently, depending on how you treated them or whether you had any on your crew. Does anyone know what this game is? -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Are they going to let OS X run on an Intel? Date: 13 Jan 99 10:00:00 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C21F23-1F260@206.165.43.222> References: <joe.ragosta-1301990815170001@wil93.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy [cross-posted to cs.next.advocacy because I can't comprehend why anyone would discuss the politics and technical issues involved in the cross-platform-ness of OpenStep technology without including current OpenStep users and developers in the discussion] Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> said: >In article <19990112164648.00859.00012822@ng-fi1.aol.com>, >badbatzy@aol.combadspam (BadBatzy) wrote: > >> Im curious if OSX has a chance on running on an intel machine. I just >bought a >> P2-300 Laptop, but have always loved the Mac OS. Is it possible they'll >port >> OSX to PC clones? > >There are two chances: > >Fat chance >and >Slim chance > >Or maybe a third: > >No chance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Are they going to let OS X run on an Intel? Date: 13 Jan 99 10:02:00 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C21F9B-20E7E@206.165.43.222> References: <macghod-1201991746230001@sdn-ar-002casbarp315.dialsprint.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy [cross-posted to cs.next.advocacy because I can't comprehend why anyone would discuss the politics and technical issues involved in the cross-platform-ness of OpenStep technology without including current OpenStep users and developers in the discussion] Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> said: >In article <19990112164648.00859.00012822@ng-fi1.aol.com>, >badbatzy@aol.combadspam (BadBatzy) wrote: > >> Im curious if OSX has a chance on running on an intel machine. I just >bought a >> P2-300 Laptop, but have always loved the Mac OS. Is it possible they'll >port >> OSX to PC clones? > >Its been killed. No big deal, just sell your laptop and buy a g3 300 >powerbook > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 13 Jan 99 09:19:24 MDT References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > completely misrepresenting what has been said. > > mmalc. You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn out to be wonderful in six months. Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore.
From: "Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:49:19 -0600 Organization: Intergraph Computer Systems (Server Division) Message-ID: <XyJBILxP#GA.243@pet.hiwaay.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Bob Canup wrote in message <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org>... > >A rhetorical point here: And a stupid one at that. > People who won't show you their source code generally >have something to hide. > Yes, their patentable ideas and algorithms. Just like Intel doesn't give away the design schematics for x86 processors. -- Nik Simpson
From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 13 Jan 1999 06:48:58 -0700 Organization: ARDI Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com Message-ID: <ufaezne111.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <ufg19lnwaw.fsf@ftp.ardi.com> <77emje$7s$2@news.panix.com> >>>>> "Sal" == Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> writes: Sal> On 08 Jan 1999 17:07:19 -0700, Clifford T. Matthews Sal> <ctm@ardi.com> wrote: >> When Apple bought Power Computing, Yellow Box died. It took some >> time for this to sink in, though. Sal> Huh? How are YB and hardware cloning related? Michael Giddings asked me a similar question via e-mail, but e-mail to: <giddings@genetics.utah.edu> bounced. Apple paid about $100m to buy Power Computing because they couldn't handle the competition. That, combined with my knowledge that they weren't going to release an Intel-based machine of their own told me that they would not be able to weather the market forces that would make 80x86 more cost effective than PPC. Furthermore, since Yellow box is largely an implementation of an open standard (the result of the deal NeXT did with Sun), they'd have to do a fair amount of product differentiation before they could afford to release yellow box. At the time, I strongly felt that Apple buying PowerPC spelt the death of Rhapsody/Intel, but I didn't think it was the death of Yellow box per-se. I did think there was a good chance that they wouldn't follow through on their promise to provide the Yellow Box runtime to non-Apple platforms, which is certainly close to the death of the spirit of Yellow box. So, my purchase-of-PCC->death-of-YB post was tongue-in-cheek, but with some historical basis. --Cliff ctm@ardi.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Message-ID: <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 13 Jan 99 09:14:02 MDT References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com>, > scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > > This hits my understanding _right_ on the head. At the BOF, they > > ("they"==Apple people) said that they were reevaluating where > > YellowBox/NT fits in their business plan, or something to that effect. > > > Sorry Scott, but "something to that effect" is not good enough here. > > Ernie was clear about this: to rephrase it in your words "they are > reevaluating where YellowBox fits in their *marketing* plan". Sorry, but MacOS X Server on the Intel side was killed because it didn't fit into their *marketing* plan. If you learn to read AppleSpeak, you'll see the same thing happening here. Pull yourself out of the reality distortion field for a few minutes. > > What he did not say in any way, shape or form is that "YB is dead". > > > At WWDC last May, the line was that they were working on a $20 > > YellowBox/NT deployment package, and were hoping to have something in > > six months or so. > > > > And some of us have seen concrete evidence that they're working on this -- > I'm sorry I can't say more. We're sorry you can't too. But experience has shown that when Apple doesn't say anything, it's because Bad News is on the horizon that they don't want to take the heat for. > > My read is that Apple has decided that it's a hardware company, and > > that extraneous stuff like YellowBox/NT will just have to wait. > > > > My read is very different... they're still dealing withthe original backlash > against the Rhapsody strategy, and are looking for a way to present YB in the > same way that they've repackaged MacOS X. Your read is through the rose-colored glasses that Steve passed out before the conference. Face the music, YB is dead, dead, dead.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 13 Jan 1999 17:37:28 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: >In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >> Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or >> completely misrepresenting what has been said. >> >> mmalc. > >You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, >but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn >out to be wonderful in six months. > >Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence exists. Mmalc has an excellent reputation, whereas you, Madam or Sir, did not even bother to give your name. Malcolm's interpretation makes a lot of sense, and I sure am glad to hear a voice of reason within all that FUD. Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: mrjones@mindspring.com (Mark Haase) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:41:32 -0500 Organization: WEBeam Message-ID: <mrjones-1301991241330001@user-37kbo4e.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> .GXUfmK'b9gDZEBv|@A&qq5kF6KH~L-)}IJxCV{o|87_lT8VRRVF$ In article <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > Sometimes they just spew out that stuff. Often they *are* context sensitive. > They tell you where to go and what to do next. When they shoot a bad guy, > they say "Did you see that shot!" or "That was a good one" or "Good thing I > went to target practice". It's a much more enveloping environment. You feel > much more alone in Unreal. Of course, that might be because youre _stranded_ on a planet all by yourself. Well, there are bad guys, but they don't really want to talk. And the nali don't speack you language, so sorry, what was your point? +-----------------------------+ | Mark Haase / | savar@mindspring.com \ | mhaase@pace.atl.ga.us / +----------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server References: <369af242.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <B2C14241-2386A@206.165.43.33> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <369c879d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 13 Jan 1999 11:46:37 GMT "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: >Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk> said: > >>You can't - YB programs written in Java are no more portable than those >>written >>in Objective-C. Carbon programs written in Java would be less portable >>than >>YB programs. >> >>The real advantage of Java is hype/mindshare. > > > >I don't think that that is true. YB provides a pretty darned complete >framework that obscures virtually ANY platform-specific issues. If you >write to the YB API, it shouldn't matter whether it is compiled to Mac or >Intel or Solaris or whatever. YB takes care of all the platform-specific >details for you, and does it better than any other OOP framework, by all >accounts (but they still need a well-defined shape-database printing and >graphics solution...;). Oops - you seem to have some problems reading what was written - I was directly replying to the following quote - nomail@anyaccount.edu (Ashish Mishra) wrote: > >It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, >speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow >Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple >platforms? To restate - In the context of YB software - 1. You can't do all the same stuff in Java as Objective-C. 2. Java + YB is NOT more portable than Objective-C + YB. 3. Javas advantage is hype/mindshare - it has no technical advantage.
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: The ONE BIG DIFFERENCE Date: 13 Jan 1999 18:27:35 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Distribution: world Message-ID: <77ioin$5fb@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Hello, I've observed the latest events and discussion around Apple and the future of NEXTSTEP and YB, and seen a lot of positive as well as negative aspects, which made me wondering if we should laugh or cry. It is clear that the high price of OSX/S, if used as a workstation OS, plus the (at least temporarily) missing Intel version are a big disappointment, and many old NEXTers feel lost (again). But one single change makes me think that maybe not everything is lost. Instead, it convinces me that the Apple executives will give YB a chance. It's that the first time after many month Apple went public with a software that points in the right direction. Up to now it was always difficult to find the products like OpenStep 4.2, Rhapsody, even WebObjects. Now, with MacOSX/Server they agressively market a NEXTSTEP-based product. Taking into account the current "closed lips" policy, the practice to be silent about what's in the pipe, it means a lot that MacOSX/Server is placed directly on http://www.apple.com/, as one of five central topics on their web site. They demonstrate that they are focused on this product in a way that I think they already moved beyond the point of no return. Now the cannot simply say "Sorry, it was just an idea". While they are not saying anything about development (neither Carbon nor YB) it is absolutely clear that the future of OS-X makes absolutely no sense without YB, I think it is not possible to drop it. They try to sell it as a server / workgroup machine, which maybe is a much bigger market then what you could expect from an OSX/Intel product. This is a plus. Finally, one word about being "pissed off" by the NEXT/Apple strategy of permanently dropping/discontinuing things you were waiting for or using. Of course they do that. And I lost a lot this way myself. But if there is just no chance to establish such an operating system directly, and they have to drop and discontinue, just to survive 1994, and 1996, and 1998, but will return in 2001, and give us what we want (successfully kicking Billy in the ass), than that's OK for me. Until then, I will survive with my 486 running NEXTSTEP 3.3, spending more time on typing and thinking then waiting for the CPU. Yours, -- Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ @bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <EZM7rCSLfql8@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 13 Jan 99 11:30:14 MDT References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Christian Neuss wrote: > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > >In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > >> Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > >> completely misrepresenting what has been said. > >> > >> mmalc. > > > >You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, > >but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn > >out to be wonderful in six months. > > > >Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. > > when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence exists. It really doesn't matter even if Steve Jobs appeared to him in a burning bush and gave him the evidence on tablets of stone. Nobody's buying the "it's going to be heaven in six months" story anymore. Time's up folks - crap or get off the pot. Looks to me like many developers are finally pulling up their pants and leaving.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 13 Jan 99 11:40:23 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C236AA-7799E@206.165.43.222> References: <369c879d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk> said: >Oops - you seem to have some problems reading what was written - >I was directly replying to the following quote - Fair enough, I was kinda responding to both at once, without making distinctions... However... > >nomail@anyaccount.edu (Ashish Mishra) wrote: >> >>It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, >>speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C >(Yellow >>Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple >>platforms? > >To restate - > >In the context of YB software - >1. You can't do all the same stuff in Java as Objective-C. I believe that Apple has pretty much made a commitment to making YB the premier Java development framework -that certainly implies that they're going to work very hard at proving you wrong if at all possible. >2. Java + YB is NOT more portable than Objective-C + YB. Except that if they do it right, companies that license Java from Sun will ALSO want to license YB from Apple and do the port themselves, which would make YB attractive as a development framework on virtually every platform >3. Javas advantage is hype/mindshare - it has no technical advantage. Except that system/platform vendors are willing to do the porting work themselves. At this point, any YB solution must be ported AND supported by Apple. If they can hop onto the Java bandwagon firmly enough, the technical advantage WILL be the hype: the system venders will port it FOR Apple as a high-end cross-platform framework for Java apps and provide their own platform-specific support. That's what NeXT did with OpenStep, yes?, but I think that YB for Java has a better chance of succeeding on a wider variety of platforms than YB for Objective-C did. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:36:31 GMT In <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > I think what this fails to address is that while the announced $995 price > for > OS X Server is a good price for what it includes, Apple is missing out on > a > very good opportunity to further gain momentum by also offering a > lower-priced version without all the Server-specific bells and whistles > (WebObjects etc). Before anyone claims I'm trumpetting the Apple "line", let me point out that the current pricing means we have to do an NT port real quick because there's not going to be many people running the OS and running "user apps" on it - which is exactly what our product is. Basically this means we get to hurt for another 8 months to a year (I bet the longer number) while OX-X comes out and we have a mass market platform to ship on. And it does hurt, as you'll see from the similar comments from the other YB developers. That said there are two people who I think will find this package quite reasonable, the server runners (who should love it) and developers who get the "whole sheebang" for $995 without the confusing pricing and licencing of the past. To the server users perspective it seems like a great deal to me. It's competitive in terms of price with other people's server OS's, and has WO which is better than anything anyone else has to offer. Unfortunately many of the later group have Intel machines (including us) and they're all getting cut off at the knees. However if we want to contemplate another group of users, experimenters, can anyone demonstrate that any such market exists? I'm not convinces it's worth bothering about when OS-X is so close in time. They needed a new server OS _now_, they didn't need a new desktop OS _now_. Since they plan on moving everyone to OS-X "real" in a very short time period, there's seemingly very little to be gained by releasing it to the desktop. My only real complaint is the whole Intel side of things. This one is just brainless IMHO. Not from the perspective of the server or anything, but Apple KNOWS that the vast majority of it's existing WO developers are on Intel! This is going to piss off a LOT of people for no apparent gain. Yes, Apple will say "but just use the NT version", but as anyone that's used it can tell you, that doesn't count. And no, I don't care about OS-X desktop on Intel, but the server is still a great idea. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5IHFG.KqL@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: english@primenet.com Organization: needs one References: <77h7m2$nni$1@news.digifix.com> <B2C18A54-11998@206.165.43.119> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:45:15 GMT In <B2C18A54-11998@206.165.43.119> "Lawson English" wrote: > And Those Who Should Know say for sure that HyperCard was so far back on > the backburner that it wasn't going anywhere UNTIL Jobs started getting a > zillion letters. Apparently he wasn't even aware that HC was being > stalled. I doubt anyone in HC did either - because as far as I could tell that was "no one" for a longish time. The treatment of HC is about as bad as that of AS IMHO. However I still think HC should be killed in favour of FaceSpace/AS. With AS actually going somewhere and FS/AS doing basically the same thing as HC, I don't see why two projects are needed. Yes, I know you'll say "QT support", but they could support that better with AS as well. There should be _one_ user level language for _all_ Apple products, and AS should be that language. Maury
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:53:18 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369CEB9E.55032C54@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <77g7o7$pi1$1@decius.ultra.net> <77g9f4$gs3$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <see-below-1201991723480001@dynamic27.pm02.mv.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dohnut wrote: > > One interesting thing I've found is that framerate has a lot to do with > it, which I never realized before. I figured this out when playing Unreal > and mrore recently Klingon Honor Guard (which I won a free copy of). In > these games, almost right away I turned on god mode, which also tallies > with them getting about 10fps average on my computer... I didn't do this > in Quake, Doom, Marathon, etc., where I got much better framerates. I've > definitely found high framerate helping a great deal in multiplayer (which > is well known), but more recently decided that it's just as important to > enjoying single player. I also figured out that low framerate may be the > biggest factor in inducing nausea when playing such games--if you find a > 3D game of this type difficult and frustrating, or nausea inducing, > chances are you're getting a low framerate. This is absolutely true for two reasons. One is the playability factor, the other is totally psychological (for me, at least). When I had a slow, Quake-worthless Cyrix processor and a flat 2D video card, I spent a lot of mental energy compensating for my inability to play those games by insisting that they were stupid, mindless, boring, unimaginative, and wasteful. When I upgraded my machine to a much faster processor and bought myself a RIVA TNT, all of a sudden I had two responses: I wanted to play games that showed off the power of my new machine, and I enjoyed those games tremendously because of the satisfaction they brought regarding my upgrade purchases. I felt like a brand-new gamer, shedding all those inhibitions and pre-dispositions against 3D games. I think that a lot of people with slow computers continue to claim sour grapes, the way I did, simply because they can't play high-speed games. The fact of the matter is that those games are great fun. MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Is Mac OS X faster on Intel as on PowerPC ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5IIF2.LI0@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jens-uwe.thieme@charite.de Organization: needs one References: <77gfgm$q5h$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:06:37 GMT In <77gfgm$q5h$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> jens-uwe.thieme@charite.de wrote: > I think Mac OS X runs faster on a Intel then on a PowerPC Machine. Your PC must be radically different than mine then. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5IICr.LF5@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: seanl@cs.umd.edu Organization: needs one References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <F5EwHr.AJC@T-FCN.Net> <77g7g3$2cl$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:05:14 GMT In <77g7g3$2cl$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke wrote: > There are many premises in the book, but the Man-month bit is exactly as > Scott puts it. Well I've got it in my hand, and I disagree. Key point: > Men and months are interchangeable commodities only when a task > can be partitioned among many workers with no communication among them > [Figure 2.1 -- shows a curve of xy=9, plotted on a graph of x=men, > y=months]. This is true of reaping wheat or picking cotton; it is not > even approximately true of systems programming. Linux programming consists primarily of device driver updating, and is highly partitioned. The core OS is not, and uses a small core team. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: "Productizing" MacOS X Server/Intel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5III8.LIw@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com Organization: needs one References: <77ae8g$ffb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77am56$lkc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c0ko$pf8$1@news.digifix.com> <ygczp7phd6i.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77epki$aqd$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <SCOTT.99Jan12105153@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:08:32 GMT In <SCOTT.99Jan12105153@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > Hey, don't underestimate the amount of misunderstanding (on either > side). As of WWDC, you could corral an Apple-Apple person one minute > and a NeXT-Apple person the next minute and get _completely_ > contradictory information. It's like they were on different planets. It was worse than that IMHO, the Apple-Apple person were all too often completely unaware of how a bit of YB tech worked, yet hated it outright. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: chuck@codefab.com Organization: needs one References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:10:31 GMT In <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote: > Absolutely. One of the biggest problems with diagnosing Mc and Windows > problems is that the error messages are either too non-specific, or > contain something uninformative like "program failed to load > resource, error -917". > The syslog system in Unix is an absolute godsend if properly configured > and used. Hmmm. Helpful yes, but for instance yesterday my app failed with a -6, and neither the debugger or the console would yield anything more than "-6". It was a non-retained NSColor. Sure it's better, but it gets all too confused for my liking. Maury
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:24:32 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p226.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369CF2EF.67794B96@tone.ca> References: <369c879d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <B2C236AA-7799E@206.165.43.222> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:24:16 GMT Lawson English wrote: > >In the context of YB software - > >1. You can't do all the same stuff in Java as Objective-C. > > I believe that Apple has pretty much made a commitment to making YB the > premier Java development framework -that certainly implies that they're > going to work very hard at proving you wrong if at all possible. > > >2. Java + YB is NOT more portable than Objective-C + YB. > > Except that if they do it right, companies that license Java from Sun will > ALSO want to license YB from Apple and do the port themselves, which would > make YB attractive as a development framework on virtually every platform > I've really got to agree with Lawson. Give up on Obj-c, nobody else uses it. So its better than Java, so what, everybody is moving to Java, programmers will be a dime a dozen, and Java will evolve to meet the challenge. You don't sink you money and efforts into solutions no one else is using. It's exactly the same as Quickdraw GX, great technology that didn't fly, so we'll find another way to do it. Michael Monner
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:28:42 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1301991428420001@wil106.dol.net> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> In article <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote: > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > >In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > >> Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > >> completely misrepresenting what has been said. > >> > >> mmalc. > > > >You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, > >but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn > >out to be wonderful in six months. > > > >Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. > > when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence exists. > Mmalc has an excellent reputation, whereas you, Madam or Sir, did > not even bother to give your name. > > Malcolm's interpretation makes a lot of sense, and I sure am glad > to hear a voice of reason within all that FUD. True. HOWEVER, Malcom has been wrong before on shipping dates and the like. I suspect that the problem lies in the fact that Apple doesn't even have a consistent story inside some times. One (or even 100) person at Apple may tell Malcolm something, but when the decision gets made, that faction happened to be the one that lost out. Sorry, but I'm very unhappy with the Mac OS X Server for Intel situation. I thought it was stupid to announce that only version 1.0 would ever be available and it's even dumber not to even release the first version--at least to test the waters. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:51:51 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77j112$cr6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77ib03$nt9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77igf6$t26$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> agave_@hotmail.com wrote: > spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > Now is the time to ship YB at competitive prices and support it. > > And who's going to buy your Yellow Box product? The only markets you > can sell into for the next year are MacOS X Server (which is a _server_ > product no matter what it's capable of) and Windows. I don't know how many > people are going to pop $1K for an OS just to run one or two killer apps so > that leaves you with Windows. Certainly very few people are going to buy OS X Server at $1000 except to use it as a server, and certainly as long as that's the case, very few YB apps will be sold. But if Apple offered a version of OSXS without the server-specific aspects, like WebObjects, and sold it at a price competitive with WNT _workstation_ then more people would buy it, and they would also need apps. I'm one such potential customer. Why is that so difficult to understand? There's nothing in OSX Server that forces it to be used only for server functions, except its price. > ... Meanwhile, back at the > ranch, what is Apple going to tell their (non-YB) developers? "Ummm, yeah... > we have this killer development environment but any products you develop will > have to be done on our new server OS or Windows NT and those products' only > market in the meantime are Windows users." The only reason there isn't a wider potential OSX Server market for YB apps is Apple's _pricing_ decisions for OSX Server. They get no sympathy for me for their being stuck with a problem they themselves created. > _That's_ going to fly well. If > YB is going to hit primetime, it won't be until _after_ MacOS X ships at the > end of this year. Yeah, but it could get started TODAY. Maybe YB won't really take off until later, but the process could start now. For developers, that would be one extra year of real-world use of their apps, ensuring that bugs and other problems are well worked out before the OSX roll-out. Even with only a few sales, this would be an important plus. And the income from those sales probably wouldn't hurt, either. And for those early adopters, it would mean one extra year of using a really good OS on modern hardware, rather than either having to hobble along with a really good OS on good but old hardware (NeXTSTEP), of making do with an OK but crash-prone OS on good hardware (ie OS8.5), or even (the horror!) using a real bad OS on good hardware (Windoze). Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:36:52 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p95.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369CF5D3.7ADB506@tone.ca> References: <77h7m2$nni$1@news.digifix.com> <B2C18A54-11998@206.165.43.119> <F5IHFG.KqL@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:36:35 GMT Maury Markowitz wrote: > In <B2C18A54-11998@206.165.43.119> "Lawson English" wrote: > > And Those Who Should Know say for sure that HyperCard was so far back on > > the backburner that it wasn't going anywhere UNTIL Jobs started getting a > > zillion letters. Apparently he wasn't even aware that HC was being > > stalled. > > I doubt anyone in HC did either - because as far as I could tell that was > "no one" for a longish time. The treatment of HC is about as bad as that > of AS IMHO. > > However I still think HC should be killed in favour of FaceSpace/AS. > With AS actually going somewhere and FS/AS doing basically the same thing > as HC, I don't see why two projects are needed. Yes, I know you'll say "QT > support", but they could support that better with AS as well. There should > be _one_ user level language for _all_ Apple products, and AS should be > that language. > > Maury You're talking about Facespan/Applescript right? For minute there I thought there was stuff going on I didn't know about.
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:59:58 +0000 From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Message-ID: <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> Organization: Insignia Solutions Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com In article <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au>, Hugh.Fisher@cs.anu.edu.au (Hugh Fisher) wrote: > The real horror, which Carmack focused on, is the memory manager. > Fixed size partitions in the 1990's. If your app has been assigned > a 2M partition and it needs more than 2M of memory, you're screwed. > Never mind that there's 32 more megabytes of unused virtual address > space showing up in About This Macintosh - you can't use it. Aaargh! > All you as a programmer can do is put up an alert telling the user > to quit and increase the partition. (And yeah, I know about the > temporary memory allocation routines. Double aargh.) No double aargh. Temporary memory is exactly what the system uses to allocate your applications memory in the first place. So it doesnt make much difference whether you allocate 10 MB to your application, or you allocate 2 MB to your application and then your application allocates another 8 MB from temporary memory.
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:37:10 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Message-ID: <1dlkrce.4fyixapgr88wN@roxboro0-014.dyn.interpath.net> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <77eiuq$o89$1@news.digifix.com> <stevehix-1201991553040001@192.168.1.10> <B2C143AD-28DF8@206.165.43.33> ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote: > For another, there are a LOT of Mac and OpenStep developers that are STILL > weirded out by Apple's decisions about APIs. > > Carbon only makes sense for Adobe, MS and other cross-platform behemoths. Given the first statement, the second is patently false -- Carbon makes sense for all current Mac developers as it gives them a chance to make some small changes and have their program get the benefits of a improved OS (and even those changes can be delayed until after the OS is out, and then a patch or update could be released). It's not visionary, it's not on the cutting edge, it may not produce the best product -- but the safest thing for Mac developers to do (other than to chuck it and start developing for windows) is to simply ignore everything except MacOS. Developing for a "might have been" API/OS isn't good for the bottom line. A mere 3 weeks ago I was saying "So why should they switch from one framework to another when they don't have any confidence that it will be around in a year?", although the current fuss doesn't convince me that YB is dead or going away -- it certainly doesn't do anything to convince me that it won't. -- John Moreno
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:26:39 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ivhi$bik$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> <Dj3n2.3993$xq4.970@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <Dj3n2.3993$xq4.970@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> Joe Ragosta wrote:- > > That reminds me of an old game I used to play years ago. You had to travel > > around the universe picking up minerals. There were something like 6 or 7 > > races in the universe and each of them had different characteristics. You > > started out by staffing your ship and training the crew, but you had to > > keep in mind the different characteristics of the races. > > > > Each race behaved differently, depending on how you treated them or > > whether you had any on your crew. > > > > Does anyone know what this game is?- > > Starflight. One of the great pc games of all time. Once back in 1990 while > severely depressed over a failed relationship, I called in sick to work five > consecutive days while I stayed home playing Starflight and throwing beers. > :) Do you know where I can find this game? It sounds very interesting. Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: croehrig@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:42:39 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> In article <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote: > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > >In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > >> Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > >> completely misrepresenting what has been said. > >> > >> mmalc. > > > >You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, > >but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn > >out to be wonderful in six months. > > > >Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. > > when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence exists. > Mmalc has an excellent reputation, whereas you, Madam or Sir, did > not even bother to give your name. > > Malcolm's interpretation makes a lot of sense, and I sure am glad > to hear a voice of reason within all that FUD. I second that. It's unfortunate that such fine folks as Greg and Scott are becoming the casualties and it's completely understandable that they are bitter and disillusioned. I also suspect that being bitter and disillusioned has some impact on their ability to be positive about the future of this technology, and that their perspectives might be somewhat biased. The fact is that the number of existing OPENSTEP developers are insignificant compared to the number of MacOS and Windows developers that are currently completely oblivious to the Yellow Box. Those crowds have to be wooed very carefully. Jobs & co. seem to be realizing they've got one chance at this and it better be right. Releasing YB now and touting a "revolution" is not going to work. I think they understand --- better than most people --- how great revolutionary ideas can fizzle in the marketplace. Revolutions don't make good business models. If Apple has decided that the path to turning YellowBox into a mainstream technology is a long-term evolutionary approach --- a seduction --- then I'm all for it. It makes sense. It's not been a year overdue. Hell, we've been nursing this dream for over ten years, remember? And it's closer to becoming mainstream now than it ever was. Another couple of years isn't going matter much. The dream is as least as much about the _user_ experience as it is the developer experience. The developer technology is "merely" the path to the user experience. It's going to be a while before there's a palatable alternative to Diagram, WriteUp, Create, TeXview, TickleServices, DPS and their seamless interaction. I don't think Windows or Linux is going to get there anytime soon, if ever. In the meantime, if I'm careful I can still run NEXTSTEP on the latest Intel hardware and be more productive than I can anywhere else. I doesn't make sense to me that Apple wants to kill YB or multi-architectures; it makes more sense that they are patiently harbouring a long-term plan to bring them to fruition. Those ex-NeXTers at Apple aren't all that different from you or me. I think they feel as passionate about their technology as we do. After all, we're just using it: they created it. -- Chris Roehrig -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Rob Blessin <bhi1@ix.netcom.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:54:26 -0700 Organization: Black Hole, Incorporatd Message-ID: <369D1612.C5B7F9BA@ix.netcom.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <joe.ragosta-1301991428420001@wil106.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello NeXT/ Apple community: It seems to me the Openstep is the hub of a wheel with many spokes , why are they giving the impression that pulling the spokes out of sections of a working wheel make sense time and again in the overall scheme of things now, Apple has a good Intel foundation driver pool already, Mac OS Intel allows them to test Yellow box on Intel first before moving Yellow Box Apple Enterprise apps to NT . We NeXT people know Openstep is a working wheel, spokes have been yanked and others never quite finished but it is getting better but overall it still works it just need fine tuning and a few chipset, instance table , bios upgrade support for components, IE 7890 Adaptec would be huge. Apple leave the spokes in the wheel , writing drivers isn't that huge of an expense, especially when they already exist. A proposal for the Openstep 2000 Millennium revival it could happen, Apple says to start a revolution, Apple provide me youre chosen encarnation of Operating System software on Intel. NeXT has a following and we'll do it, don't leave us to wallow in the muck. What could be better than having the technology and people like us waiting in the wings hankering to pull it off. We salivate at the thought of offering a more stable server product than NT on Intel. Personally, I've been selling next products for 6 years and we enjoy distributing these products to your loyal customers to this day. We offer to personally spearhead the stealth marketing campaign for the underground OS for the rest of us, Openstep Stealth 2000, attack, if it ain't broke don't fix it, we've got no place else to go and besides we like to think brilliant , the Intel world doesn't need to be ruled by Dell and Microsoft everything. Yes, we know about Linux, it is improving but currently Openstep is our OS of choice. Check out what is going on at www.litestep.net , take the face of Windows. Best Regards Rob Blessin President blackholeinc.com Joe Ragosta wrote: > > In article <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, > neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote: > > > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > > >In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > > >> Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > > >> completely misrepresenting what has been said. > > >> > > >> mmalc. > > > > > >You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, > > >but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn > > >out to be wonderful in six months. > > > > > >Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. > > > > when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence exists. > > Mmalc has an excellent reputation, whereas you, Madam or Sir, did > > not even bother to give your name. > > > > Malcolm's interpretation makes a lot of sense, and I sure am glad > > to hear a voice of reason within all that FUD. > > True. HOWEVER, Malcom has been wrong before on shipping dates and the > like. I suspect that the problem lies in the fact that Apple doesn't even > have a consistent story inside some times. One (or even 100) person at > Apple may tell Malcolm something, but when the decision gets made, that > faction happened to be the one that lost out. > > Sorry, but I'm very unhappy with the Mac OS X Server for Intel situation. > I thought it was stupid to announce that only version 1.0 would ever be > available and it's even dumber not to even release the first version--at > least to test the waters. > > -- > Regards, > > Joe Ragosta > joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:53:08 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > That said there are two people who I think will find this package quite > reasonable, the server runners (who should love it) and developers who get > the "whole sheebang" for $995 without the confusing pricing and licencing > of the past. To the server users perspective it seems like a great deal > to me. It's competitive in terms of price with other people's server OS's, > and has WO which is better than anything anyone else has to offer. > Unfortunately many of the later group have Intel machines (including us) > and they're all getting cut off at the knees. Agree entirely, up to here. > However if we want to contemplate another group of users, experimenters, > can anyone demonstrate that any such market exists? I'm not convinces it's > worth bothering about when OS-X is so close in time. Well, I can name one member of such a group: me. There are certainly a number of other people who post here who also belong to it; I'll let them pipe in if they care to. Is this market large? No way of knowing until you try it to see. If the costs of doing so were high, I'd agree that it may not be worth the bother. In this case, the costs appear minimal, since they ultimately boil down to not enabling WebObjects, netbooting, etc. I believe that WebObjects, for one, requires a licence string, which presumably OSX Server buyers would get. So, if you simply don't give that licence string to people who buy the 'workstation' version, you're in business. > They needed a new > server OS _now_, they didn't need a new desktop OS _now_. There I disagree; they needed a new desktop OS several years ago. And in any case, _I_ need a new desktop OS _now_. OS8.5 just doesn't cut it for me. And since Apple _has_ a new desktop OS _now_, why not sell it to me, since it costs them so little to do so? > Since they plan > on moving everyone to OS-X "real" in a very short time period, there's > seemingly very little to be gained by releasing it to the desktop. You yourself are betting on this "real short time" being close to a year. Sorry, but that to me is not a "real short time." > My only real complaint is the whole Intel side of things. This one is > just brainless IMHO. Not from the perspective of the server or anything, > but Apple KNOWS that the vast majority of it's existing WO developers are > on Intel! This is going to piss off a LOT of people for no apparent gain. No argument there. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jediofmacs@mangoaol.com (tdean) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:59:22 -0500 Organization: Lightlink Internet Message-ID: <Jediofmacs-1301991659220001@usr9.lightlink.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <pxpst2-1101991811240001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <eIvm2.3768$xq4.1042@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992224060001@alander.cmc.net> <mrjones-1201991342080001@user-38lcome.dialup.mindspring.com> <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu> SSjwp1+JM0.9j0Z}Q;^+_p*.'\1-SFT<~fW)IQ\-z%@Jg73F-dFTSQrroQt4NMZg(,E, gY8TE]ch,2%>\C~I*Hf In article <77g6fg$g13$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) wrote: >Comparison of Doom to Marathon seems to me a little unfair, because they >were designed too differently. I don't think Doom was meant to be too >hard or taxing: the levels were all relatively small, the "bad guys" >too slow and stupid (although there were a lot of them for sure). You >could just blast through and have a wonderful time. Marathon had these >huge levels with lots of wide open space, "bad guys" who could really >hurt you (e.g. the machine-gunning grenade-launching aliens), spooky >music. It was challenging, but less fun than Doom... Some people enjoy a challange, rather than brainless sluaghter. tdean -- Remove "MANGO" from email adress to contact me
From: in@out.com (Andrei) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:55:15 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <MPG.1106fc6e96d94529989681@news.mindspring.com> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> iMac? *puke*. linux! or nt4, at least.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:13:34 GMT In <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Well, I can name one member of such a group: me. 1 does not demonstrate a group, and you know that. Belittling this point is not a worthy strategy, because it IS THE POINT. Apple is moving to OS-X shortly, can you provide any reasonable arguments that it is _clearly_ in Apple's best interests to release a largely incompatible OS (with either of the others you'd compare it with) for a period that's likely to last about one year? > of other people who post here who also belong to it; I'll let them pipe > in if they care to. I think you've missed something, I'm one of those people too. But that doesn't blind me to the fact that this is still a small group. > Is this market large? No way of knowing until you try it to see. Balogna, you don't think people in Apple did just this? > of doing so were high, I'd agree that it may not be worth the bother. In > this case, the costs appear minimal, since they ultimately boil down to not > enabling WebObjects, netbooting, etc. Noooooo, the OS I'm using might be fine for some power users and servers, but it's IMHO not ready for desktop deployment. > There I disagree; they needed a new desktop OS several years ago. In case you didn't notice, people arebuying iMacs in droves, and practically no one is buying Macs for servers. I'd say the point is provably wrong. > case, _I_ need a new desktop OS _now_. And so do I, but that's still not the issue. Look, we all have the same choices here, wait the year or get out. Scott's gone one way, mmalc's going the other. I'm sticking too, to the bitter end. Worse, I'm not 100% convinced YB will ever ship, but I'm STILL going to wait and find out. I could get another job that would pay more, be in someplace warm (-27 in TO right now) and used a product that was _obviously_ being supported into the future - like programming Oracle for instance. Or I could stay here and work for a guy that's the best boss I can even comprehend in a job that I jump out of bed on Monday mornings for, but has a non-zero percentage of simply "going away" in the next year. For me the choice is clear. If you choose different, great! That's why we have quantum wave collapse after all. And come on people, how is any of this different that the situation two years ago? Then it was uncertain that the company wouldn't go out of business and take the OS with it. In addition it was pretty clear they were not going forward with the OS. The difference is now that only the later is a possibility, one most of us dismiss as moronic. Do the math, which one of these is a better situation for a yellow box programmer? > OS8.5 just doesn't cut it for me. Nor me, but does it cut it more than an OS that isn't supported? > since Apple _has_ a new desktop OS _now_, why not sell it to me, since it > costs them so little to do so? But _that's_ the $64*10^3 question isn't it? > You yourself are betting on this "real short time" being close to a year. > Sorry, but that to me is not a "real short time." Well i's not like I'm holding my breath or something until then. :-) Maury
From: edremy@chemserver.chem.vt.edu (Eric Remy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:23:42 -0500 Organization: Va Tech Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 1999 23:23:42 GMT In article <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Apple is moving to OS-X shortly, can you provide any reasonable arguments >that it is _clearly_ in Apple's best interests to release a largely >incompatible OS (with either of the others you'd compare it with) for a >period that's likely to last about one year? Because Apple has been "moving to a superior OS in a year" for five years now. I'll believe that OSX is real when I hold the CD in my hand. Meanwhile, Rhapsody could be shipping today as a competitor to NT and Linux, both of which have large, positive growth rates. I _really_ want a decent OS from Apple. I've switched to NT and Linux more and more lately. -- Eric Remy. Chemistry Learning Center Director, Virginia Tech "Any desired property can be computed from the Schrodinger equation for the system. The solution is left as an exercise for the reader." JIR, 3rd Ed.
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> <Dj3n2.3993$xq4.970@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77ivhi$bik$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <U9an2.4038$xq4.943@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:40:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:40:36 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77ivhi$bik$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote:- > > Starflight. One of the great pc games of all time. Once back in 1990 while > > severely depressed over a failed relationship, I called in sick to work five > > consecutive days while I stayed home playing Starflight and throwing beers. > > :) > > Do you know where I can find this game? It sounds very interesting.- If you are running an operating system that has a Sega Genesis emulator available for it (windows and linux do, I'm sure there are others, perhaps Amiga and Mac), you can use the Sega Genesis rom. The Genesis version came out 3 years after the pc version and had nicer graphics and sound. Emulators are a grey area, and if you have qualms about the legality of using them, the dos version of Starflight can probably be found as part of a discount package of old games. Electronic Arts was the publisher, if nothing else you could contact them. I think I even have the starmap saved as a jpeg somewhere :)
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 13 Jan 99 16:45:23 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2C27E27-F4D3@206.165.43.10> References: <369CF2EF.67794B96@tone.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Michael <michael@tone.ca> said: > It's exactly >the same as Quickdraw GX, great technology that didn't fly, so we'll find >another way to do it. Of course, that supposes that Java (or Carbon/YB graphics) WILL become as good as What Has Gone Before... I've yet to hear that the text/vector graphics of Carbon/YB will be as robust, color-wise, as GX, and the Obj-C advocates maintain that Java is nowhere near as useful as Obj-C. Time will prove things one way or t'other... -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:37:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77jan4$lmb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> In article <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu>, edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > > Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > > completely misrepresenting what has been said. > > You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, > but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn > out to be wonderful in six months. > Go back and read what I wrote. Compare it with what others have written, and see if, just perhaps, what others have written might have less evidence to support it than my position. And I'm the chap who organised the BoF, spoke with the folks there, went to dinner with them afterwards, and have spoken to and emailed a number of primary sources since. > Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. > Trivially disproven: I am. MacOS X Server got more headlining at MWSF than most of us might have hoped for. They've announced they're shipping the product in February. What's tripe about that? mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:08:48 -0800 From: see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <see-below-1301991508480001@dynamic41.pm03.mv.best.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g81u$on2$1@decius.ultra.net> <77ghs3$omc$1@plo.sierra.com> <77ghpt$knv$1@decius.ultra.net> <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-1301991039550001@wil123.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > That reminds me of an old game I used to play years ago. You had to travel > around the universe picking up minerals. There were something like 6 or 7 > races in the universe and each of them had different characteristics. You > started out by staffing your ship and training the crew, but you had to > keep in mind the different characteristics of the races. > > Each race behaved differently, depending on how you treated them or > whether you had any on your crew. > > Does anyone know what this game is? Er, I thought you didn't play games, Joe? :) -- ------------------------------- Matthew Vaughan matthewv@best.com http://www.best.com/~matthewv/ -------------------------------
From: "Leif Smith" <leifpat@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Yellow Box - Developer Expectations Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:54:58 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Organization: Pattern Research Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <77jfav$e0f$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Avatar is producing Yellow Box software to support collaborative work. Their web site says that it will be available for ISPs and for intronets. Looks like they see a clear road ahead as Yellow Box developers. Quoting from their web site: December 98: "Although weđll make a detailed announcement of plans for 1999 as soon as Apple confirms the Mac OS X Server ship date, 1998 has brought substantial progress towards our first release of AVATAR. As the year draws to a close, here's a brief summary ..." More at: http://www.avatarworks.com/news.html Thanks to StepWise and Dennis Sellers of MacCentral for the clue about Avatar. http://www.maccentral.com/news/9901/13.macosx.shtml http://www.stepwise.com Leif Smith Pattern Research Denver, Colorado http://www.pattern.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:57:17 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> In article <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote: >> Absolutely. One of the biggest problems with diagnosing Mc and Windows >> problems is that the error messages are either too non-specific, or >> contain something uninformative like "program failed to load >> resource, error -917". >> The syslog system in Unix is an absolute godsend if properly configured >> and used. > > Hmmm. Helpful yes, but for instance yesterday my app failed with a -6, > and neither the debugger or the console would yield anything more than > "-6". It was a non-retained NSColor. Where was the -6 being displayed? -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:30:11 +1030 Message-ID: <77jit3$cbb$1@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au> From: "Timothy Priest" <timothy.priest@dsto.defence.gov.au> Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Organization: AOD-DSTO References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Except that Java still seems to be 90% hype! Objective-C is mature and robust. I think Apple is doing the right thing in promoting Java. BVut not at the expense of Obj-C. If they are not careful they will get to the point where they are stuck, because the functionality (gr?) of Java is not what it should be for developers. But the truth is Apple is still walking a fine line here. They have to be careful. As for the price of OS X, I think that what many have said already is true. I would love to run OS X server on my new G3 at work, really to just start using the technology included and get ready for OS X. But I am not going to fork out US$1000 for it. It might be ok if I were going to be using it as a true server, but many of us would like to try it as a workstation. Apple should look into this. Just my thoughts ---------- In article <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>, nomail@anyaccount.edu (Ashish Mishra) wrote: > >>This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box >>says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost >>universally ignored it. > > It's easier to program in a language you already know. Honestly though, > speaking from a development point of view - why learn Objective-C (Yellow > Box) when you can do all the same in Java, and have it work on multiple > platforms? > > I think Apple has come to the same realization. Offering three APIs, > Carbon, Yellow-Box, and Java just doesn't make much sense economically or > strategically. > > ash > > > (anti-spamming in effect) > a s h at s i n e w a r e dot c o m >
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: 14 Jan 1999 02:44:27 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <77jlmb$8b@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> <776h99$r0r@shelob.afs.com> Greg Anderson <greg@afs.com> wrote: > cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote in message ... > >What am I missing? Dr Prabhakar, where are you? > I regret to inform you that Ernie seems to have been assimilated. (I had > feared that might happen when he took the position.) As Winnie-The-Pooh > might say, "You never can tell with Reality Distortion Fields." Did you check the back of his neck for the little prong thingy?
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Date: 14 Jan 1999 02:44:53 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <77jln5$8b@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> <776gf9$27i$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: > In article <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net>, cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote: > > Apple has been strongly encouraging developers to write Yellow Box apps, > It has? Through reverse psychology, perhaps.
From: "Chris Van Buskirk" <cvbuskirk@home.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: You act like you've been steved... Organization: Motto Agency Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <tScn2.866$B21.151@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:44:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:44:41 PDT Jeezz, your turn is coming. At the end of the year. Yellow on millions of desktops. Isn't that what you wanted? -chris
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 14 Jan 1999 03:46:56 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77jpbg$o4e$2@blue.hex.net> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> <77h033$bg6$14@blue.hex.net> <QITm2.3933$xq4.985@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 1999 03:46:56 GMT On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:40:48 GMT, Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: >In <77h033$bg6$14@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:- >> In the case of Linux, there are a number of well-defined and fairly >> well-documented APIs that separate different pieces of the "Linux >> Puzzle." >> >> - Some people work on "the kernel." In fact, this overstates how much of >> a monolith the kernel is; there are various subsystems that seem to >> attract individual attention. And the "loadable kernel module" >> interface means that *many* people can work on device drivers for >> different devices. >> >> - Others work on the basic library, LIBC. >> >> - Others work on the compiler 'suite,' GCC/EGCS. - > >Linux is the kernel, the rest of the tools are GNU for the most part. libc5 >is fast disappearing as the c library in linux distributions, being replaced >by glibc2. To date, Debian, RedHat, S.u.S.E, Stampede, and some lesser >dists have abandoned libc5 for glibc2. The only "major" linux dist that >still relies on linking it's binaries against libc5 is Slackware. And, um, Mastodon. Although I think it's using libc4, because even lib5 changes far too much to be considered stable, according to its author. >Glibc2 is not specifically a part of "Linux" as you phrase it. I didn't phrase it that way, and your choice to be offended is your choice. And it *is* correct to say that glibc2 is a specific part of "various modern Linux systems." That is, > (required-by-linux-system? 'glibc2) #t Which is representative of what I said, and what I meant. In contrast, > (dependent-on-linux? 'glibc2) #f Which is representative of the way you chose to interpret what I said. >I don't mean to sound testy, but I really bristle when people associate >freely available GNU resources with linux. I'm sorry that you bristle. Unfortunately for your bristling, *all* of the systems based on the Linux kernel happen to use various of those "freely available GNU resources," thus establishing an association between them. >I use GCC and/or EGCS in FreeBSD, >OPENSTEP, Solaris, OpenBSD, and Linux; they certainly aren't dependent upon >any particular os being present, these are standard, open source c compilers. I am entirely aware that Hurd is using glibc2; I believe that they're using release 109 (e.g. version 2.0.109), but I could be off by a couple of days worth of development. (I may have missed a note or two on the mailing list.) I am entirely aware that GCC supports other systems and architectures; I was using it as well as various of the other GNU tools on SunOS and Atari TOS back before Linux even existed. I indicated, as is the case, that these various components are used in Linux systems, and that since they have well-defined interfaces, development can take place independently. I suppose it would have been worth elaborating to indicate that the interfaces are sufficiently well-defined that not only are these subsystems not all one "Linux conglomeration" (ala OS/360), but they further are used on other platforms. Which establishes the "independence" even more strongly. It is interesting that you didn't "bristle" about my inclusion of XFree86 on that list; apparently it is only offensive when you choose to misinterpret references to GPLed software? -- Real Programmers use: "compress -d > a.out" cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 14 Jan 1999 03:47:06 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77jpbq$o4e$7@blue.hex.net> References: <36967cba.0@news.depaul.edu> <19990108202917.05605.00004784@ng-ch1.aol.com> <776oa3$kgb$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <77h02e$bg6$10@blue.hex.net> <77i8g4$ii4$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 1999 03:47:06 GMT On 13 Jan 1999 13:53:08 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@hex.net> wrote: >: On 9 Jan 1999 05:09:23 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >: >WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote: >: >The unofficial site is also worth a look: >: > >: > http://gnustep.current.nu/ > >: It looks like it hasn't been updated in a while, unfortunately. > >The news page, at http://gnustep.current.nu/news.html, was updated on >December 14, 1998. I guess you have an even lower tolerance for old news >than I ;-). For a while, it was getting about 2 updates per week, paralleling the close-to-weekly updates that Richard Frith-MacDonald does on the GNUStep sources on gnu.gnustep.discuss. If the news web page "merely" chronicled a summary of what gets discussed there, along with an occasional commentary of other related events, that would be reasonably valuable. In the Linux community, it's all too easy to get "jaded" what with sites like: <http://freshmeat.net/> Freshmeat, providing daily updates of new software releases, <http://slashdot.org/> Slashdot, which has initiated the new term, "slashdot effect," <http://lwn.net/> Linux Weekly News (that's pretty self-explanatory, I'd think...) and then, at the extreme end of "up-to-date," there is: <http://gdev.net/> The gtk/Gnome Developer, which looks at the CVS archives for a number of software packages associated with the GNOME project, and lists what has been checked in lately. -- Who needs fault-tolerant computers when there's obviously an ample market of fault-tolerant users? cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:31:12 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79qemg.9pb.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <MPG.1106fc6e96d94529989681@news.mindspring.com> On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:55:15 -0500, Andrei <in@out.com> wrote: >iMac? *puke*. linux! or nt4, at least. Actually, the LinuxPPC people are working rather hard to get Linux running and fully functional on iMacs. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:15:52 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> croehrig@my-dejanews.com wrote: >I second that. It's unfortunate that such fine folks as Greg and >Scott are becoming the casualties and it's completely >understandable that they are bitter and disillusioned. I also >suspect that being bitter and disillusioned has some impact on >their ability to be positive about the future of this technology, >and that their perspectives might be somewhat biased. It is equally reasonable to assume that we have at our disposal the same (or even more) information that Malcolm does, but our interpretation differs. As much as I like Malcolm, his business experience is not as deep as mine (16+ years), and his responsbilities at P&L are oriented more to development than management. >If Apple has decided that the path to turning YellowBox into a >mainstream technology is a long-term evolutionary approach >--- a seduction --- then I'm all for it. It makes sense. If that truly is the plan -- which I doubt -- there would be ways to do it without disenfranchising the people who have been nursing the dream. In fact, there are inexpensive ways to support such people enough to keep them in the market, keep them informed, and talking positively about the OS that purportedly represents the future. The fact that Apple has not made ONE effort in this regard tells me most of what I need to know. >The dream is as least as much about the _user_ experience Which is changing dramatically in Apple's hands, to many people's disappointment (not me, I don't care either way). >as it is the developer experience. The developer technology is >"merely" the path to the user experience. Another thing that has not been mentioned much is that getting from OSXS to OSX/Consumer is NOT a simple recompile. I think the PostScript transition is going to be more time-consuming for app developers than anyone is willing to admit right now. Then there is the issue of deciding whether to start preparing for the transition to Java. I invested a lot of effort getting from NEXTSTEP to OPENSTEP, with ZERO return so far. Pardon me if I don't jump on this grand new "opportunity" to undertake another code transition. Greg
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:46:52 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >If Jobs wanted to scrap YB there wouldn't be engineers working on it now. Not necessarily. We all agree it plays an important role in WebObjects, which is selling well by all accounts. That justifies the engineers. It does NOT translate into general support for YB as a preferred general purpose development environment. >Where is your evidence the YB is dead? I have read at least one person's interpretation of what was said at the BoF that radically differs from your report. Not having been there myself, I have no way of knowing which interpretation is closer to the truth. But it doesn't seem as cut and dry as you presented it. Greg
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:14:32 GMT Organization: MSI Networks, Inc. (using Airnews.net!) Message-ID: <8B1271215E3D7DC0.67BA481D5B128955.DB5630388558B5C9@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Bx64.9xC@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Abuse-Reports-To: Report improper postings to abuse at msinets dot com NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Jan 13 23:01:45 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 05:42:04 GMT, hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) wrote: >In article <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> croehrig@my-dejanews.com >writes: >> >> >> I think the most credible reason for Apple to kill MacOSX Server/Intel >> is that Apple wants you to buy a G3. >> Why should they make an Intel version >> available when it will only result in lost hardware sales? >> > >Killing MacOSX Server/Intel is plain stupid. Three reasons: > >1) Replacing PC hardware with Apple hardware is not an option in most >large companies. On the other hand, buying Apple software is an option. > >2) Many pre-press companies are buying PC hardware+NT server. This is at >the heart of Apple's core bussiness. I just sold a quad CPU Intel system >with 1 Gb RAM, 80 Gb Mylex Raid, and a dual, redundant power supply to one >of these companies. Apple does not offer any hardware that comes even >close to this. The OS is NT 4.0 because there is no alternative that runs >on this hardware. It will take years for Apple to fill this hardware gap. >MacOSX can fill the software gap. I can't believe any press room would depend upon NT for its production. Also, if Apple were to open up OSX so third parties could put Linux under it, that would change things. (of course, Apple shows not sign of doing that.) -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> <77h033$bg6$14@blue.hex.net> <QITm2.3933$xq4.985@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77jpbg$o4e$2@blue.hex.net> Message-ID: <tgfn2.4305$xq4.1113@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:28:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:28:57 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77jpbg$o4e$2@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:- > And, um, Mastodon. Although I think it's using libc4, because even lib5 > changes far too much to be considered stable, according to its author. Mastodon? You're making that up aren't you? > It is interesting that you didn't "bristle" about my inclusion of > XFree86 on that list; apparently it is only offensive when you choose to > misinterpret references to GPLed software? - You made a reference to Xfree being platform independent in your original post, I wasn't going to chastise you for being correct.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:24:25 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> In article <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > Sorry, but MacOS X Server on the Intel side was killed because it didn't > fit into their *marketing* plan. If you learn to read AppleSpeak, > you'll see the same thing happening here. Pull yourself out of the > reality distortion field for a few minutes. > I've been involved with the NeXT community since 1990. I think I have learned to be more discriminating than you give me credit for. > > And some of us have seen concrete evidence that they're working on > > [YB/Windows licensing] -- I'm sorry I can't say more. > > We're sorry you can't too. But experience has shown that when Apple > doesn't say anything, it's because Bad News is on the horizon that they > don't want to take the heat for. > No, Apple has made it clear that the policy is not to say anything about anything, good or bad, and for sensible reasons. > Your read is through the rose-colored glasses that Steve passed out > before the conference. Face the music, YB is dead, dead, dead. > Bollocks. My read is through talking to relevant Apple folks at MacWorld, and hearing about what projects are underway. We saw what happened to the Newton. If Jobs wanted to scrap YB there wouldn't be engineers working on it now. Where is your evidence the YB is dead? mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:48:52 -0800 Message-ID: <369d8763$0$16668@nntp1.ba.best.com> >A rhetorical point here: People who won't show you their source code generally >have something to hide. VAX/VMS source code was never made public. OS 3x0 wasn't either. And those are hardware companies. As for software companies (Microsoft being one of them), they almost never make source code available to public. Can you get source code for Oracle, Informix, Sybase dbms? No, you can't. Boris
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <iNCXW+hiMkd2@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 13 Jan 99 22:58:05 MDT References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77jan4$lmb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <77jan4$lmb$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu>, > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > > In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > > > Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > > > completely misrepresenting what has been said. > > > > You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, > > but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn > > out to be wonderful in six months. > > > > Go back and read what I wrote. Compare it with what others have written, and > see if, just perhaps, what others have written might have less evidence to > support it than my position. Well, that's the problem - there's no "evidence" to support any of it. You hide behind NDA, everyone else has to use their intuition and experience to extrapolate Apple's intentions from their actions - *they're* certainly not announcing it to anyone publicly. It's a lot like Bill Clinton and his definition of "is" - in this case, it's Apple saying "we're evaluating how it fits into our marketing plan". Well, as someone else pointed out, the last time they said that, MacOS X Server for Intel was dead on the floor. It's just lawyer-speak. But they've done it so many times in the past, it's not difficult for someone to read between the lines. It's really a shame that Apple is behaving like this, and that developers can't get a straight-up definitive line from them, but that's the way they're playing the game. Simply a shame. > And I'm the chap who organised the BoF, spoke > with the folks there, went to dinner with them afterwards, and have spoken to > and emailed a number of primary sources since. Yes, we know who you are. Everyone speaks very highly of you. That's what makes you the perfect person to spread Apple's word. Or should I say non-word. > > Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. > > > Trivially disproven: I am. No, you're the naive chap who has been fooled once more into trying to sell it to the rest of us.
From: "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <367ff362.0@news.deniz.com> <m24sqkefz1.fsf@barnowl.demon.co.uk> <770k05$7is$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <3696c907$0$19091@nntp1.ba.best.com> <779ekg$9gf$1@news.campus.mci.net> Subject: Re: Microsoft vs. DOJ: who do *you* think is winning? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:56:37 -0800 Message-ID: <369d8934$0$16673@nntp1.ba.best.com> But who uses Win32s nowdays? Nobody probably. Boris Martin Ozolins wrote in message <779ekg$9gf$1@news.campus.mci.net>... >OS2 3 and later both support win32s, actually the seamless windows setup >would run windows apps faster than windows. >Boris wrote in message <3696c907$0$19091@nntp1.ba.best.com>... >> >>>To this day, I'm still flabbergasted that they gave up so easily. I liked >the >>>OS/2 shell. >>The problem with OS/2 is that it lost momentum; IBM was far too late with >releasing it. >>Actually, non-GUI version was there for a while; but it didn't cause much >interest. Then >>Windows was released; everybody started writing apps for it. By the time >OS/2 could run >>any Windows applications most applications used Windows Enhanced mode, >which OS/2 didn't >>support. I don't know if even the most current version of OS/2 supports >WIN32 >>applications; I doubt it. Except for IBM very few companies write OS/2 >software. There >>isn't even small chance that OS/2 gets noticeable market share. >>The point is: why OS/2? What's wrong with Windows? Work great for most >people (including >>myself). >> >>Boris >> >> > >
From: "John Anderson" <janderson@dti.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:34:22 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> Keep your shirts on folks. I know you like to bash marketers, but examine what can happen when you have us on _your_ side: Business Realities 1) Objective-C/YellowBox is a technical success and a marketing flop (not entirely the because the names sound tired/weird/complicated, but that certainly doesn't help). Apparently NeXT owned (and now Apple owns) the trademark "Objective-C" - they bought it from the StepStone corporation in 1991. 2) The Yellow Box is a mature cross-platform OO API and dev environment that those in the know concede is more than a _technical_ match for Java 2. 3) Steve Jobs, the Michael Jordan of the computer business, has the attention of the universe - "what magic will he perform next!?!" wonders the rapt press. 4) As one of two standing marketers of traditional desktop PCs, Java has the potential in the long run to do as much damage to the interests of Apple as it does to the interests of Microsoft. 5) Apple and Microsoft are partners. Given the Business Realities there appear two alternatives: Apple slowly abandons YB and surrenders to Java - somewhat stupidly offering its throat up to Scott McNealy for the cutting. or Steve Jobs announces to great fanfare with partner Microsoft: "FOO"!!! (okay genius, fill in the name of "Foo"). "Foo" is a cross-platform OO API, language, dev and runtime environment - just like Java. The powerful "Foo" language is technically a garbage-collected descendent of an obscure Smalltalk-like language called Objective-C. "Developers are gonna LUV it" says Steve, "it does things Java simply can't". "Foo" supports a radical new Apple-patented technology called "multi-architecture binaries" (write once run everywhere that matters) and is a complete peer/alternative to Java 2. If needed, it integrates PERFECTLY with Java 2 - you can even write Java 2 "Foo" apps! But this is just the beginning. "Foo" runs TODAY on Windows95/98/NT/2000/MacOSX. WebObjects, the world's premier app server now fully supports "Foo". The portable "Foo" platform is small and compact - in comparison Java 2 is BLOATED. The various Java VMs are unreliable when compared to the robust "Foo" runtime. Database support in "Foo" blows the doors off of JDBC. "Foo" perfomance trounces Java 2. You can download "Foo" TODAY FREE from Apple and Microsoft's web sites! The Bill Gates Video: "At Microsoft we are very excited about working with Steve and Apple on Foo. Foo on NT and Windows 2000 provides our developers with an extremely powerful and robust platform for creating next generation applications." "Foo is very impressive technology, it isn't vaporware" says Daffy Duck, senior analyst with Duck and Pig, "This is a serious blow to Sun and Java". So to recap: Oak --> Java ObjC/YB --> "Foo" All for the price of a garbage collector and a phone call to Bill. Straightforward enough for you? Marketing can be your friend. - john
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:06:16 +1100 Organization: OzEmail Ltd. Message-ID: <77k3pt$rl2$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> >Maury Markowitz (maury@remove_this.istar.ca) wrote: >> That said there are two people who I think will find this package quite >> reasonable, the server runners (who should love it) and developers <snip> >> However if we want to contemplate another group of users, experimenters, >> can anyone demonstrate that any such market exists? I'm not convinces it's >> worth bothering about when OS-X is so close in time. >Stefano Pagiola spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: >Well, I can name one member of such a group: me. There are certainly a number >of other people who post here who also belong to it; I'll let them pipe in if >they care to. I'd be interested - but I'm currently on Intel. >Is this market large? No way of knowing until you try it to see. If the costs >of doing so were high, I'd agree that it may not be worth the bother. In this >case, the costs appear minimal, since they ultimately boil down to not >enabling WebObjects, netbooting, etc. <snip> >_I_ need a new desktop OS _now_. OS8.5 just doesn't cut it for me. And >since Apple _has_ a new desktop OS _now_, why not sell it to me, since it >costs them so little to do so? I really think it's about migrating cleanly from MacOS to MacOSX. Adding in MacOS X Server (Workstation version) will add confusion. If they're going to beta test MacOS X though - what better group to start with than all those people who have tried MkLinux at some time? >> My only real complaint is the whole Intel side of things. This one is >> just brainless IMHO. Not from the perspective of the server or anything, >> but Apple KNOWS that the vast majority of it's existing WO developers are >> on Intel! This is going to piss off a LOT of people for no apparent gain. Are most WO developers on the developers program anyway? Is there a chance they will keep releasing Intel to developers? Quite a strange thing to do... but it might get several publications writing articles about "the cool system Apple won't release". Greg
Message-ID: <369D9AC1.83C2766E@trilithon.com> From: Henry McGilton <henry@trilithon.com> Organization: Trilithon Research MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:17:52 EDT Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:20:33 -0800 * Keep your shirts on folks. I know you like to bash marketers, * but examine what can happen when you have us on _your_ side: <<<<<<<< munch >>>>>>>> * All for the price of a garbage collector and a phone call to Bill. * Straightforward enough for you? Marketing can be your friend. I have ready a great fruit-juice cocktail --- completely free of any derivatives of the fine products of the Aztec Cactus Growers Association --- for you when you finally [if ever] wake up . . . ........ Henry -- ============================================================ Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research -------------------------------+---------------------------- mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com ============================================================
Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5IItu.Lrx@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: nagle@netcom.com Organization: needs one References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <kcobb-1101990939470001@cs40-160.austin.rr.com> <petrich-1101991132480001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <77dlbe$obq$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <nagleF5Goso.2Kw@netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:15:29 GMT In <nagleF5Goso.2Kw@netcom.com> John Nagle wrote: > Open Transport was a real mess. It took Apple seven years to > get it out the door, even though it basically is a framework that allows > stealing protocol modules from UNIX System V. I'm sorry, but this is NOT TRUE. It took _three_ years to "get it out the door", and I make that definition not as 1.0, but 1.2 when it became useful. As to the "basically", well that's the whole point isn't it? Unix software runs great on Unix, and crappy on other things. Porting from Unix to other OS's is a tough job because Unix does more. Making the framework in question is a tremendously difficult task considering the MacOS doesn't even have a kernel. My hat's tipped to the entire OT team for getting it to work at all, let alone as well as it does. Credit where credit is due John, Apple did the best they could with what they had, and did a pretty good job of it. It's not their fault that STREAMS isn't very portable, unless you define "portable" as "portable within Unix SysV based OS's". Maury
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 14 Jan 1999 07:45:45 GMT Organization: The WebDragon Message-ID: <77k7b9$tm$4@208.236.238.187> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <mrjones-1301991241330001@user-37kbo4e.dialup.mindspring.com> <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com> In article <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com>, "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote: > Mark Haase wrote in message ... > >In article <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" > ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > > > >> Sometimes they just spew out that stuff. Often they *are* context > sensitive. > >> They tell you where to go and what to do next. When they shoot a bad guy, > >> they say "Did you see that shot!" or "That was a good one" or "Good thing > I > >> went to target practice". It's a much more enveloping environment. You > feel > >> much more alone in Unreal. > > > >Of course, that might be because youre _stranded_ on a planet all by > >yourself. Well, there are bad guys, but they don't really want to talk. > >And the nali don't speack you language, so sorry, what was your point? > > My point is this: You are constantly being asked to *read* the log of those > who went before you. Boring. Make it a video, or at least add some audio. > Having to read the story is just so out of place. it's a *translator*. do I *HAVE* to spell it out for you? -- send mail to Hath (at) cyberops (dot) org instead of the above address. this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
From: "John Anderson" <janderson@dti.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:43:24 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <77k7d8$hqu$1@camel21.mindspring.com> References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <369D9AC1.83C2766E@trilithon.com> Thanks Henry, but I don't accept drinks from Java consultants and obvious shills for Sun Microsystems. Sure would suck to see the gravy train come to a screeching halt would't it? "Charge! Kill HP, IBM, Microsoft and Apple all at once!" - Scott McNealy Funny how we're all still standing isn't it? Maybe you can offer Scott the cocktail when his rude awakening comes. Henry McGilton wrote in message <369D9AC1.83C2766E@trilithon.com>... > >I have ready a great fruit-juice cocktail --- completely free of >any derivatives of the fine products of the Aztec Cactus Growers >Association --- for you when you finally [if ever] wake up . . . > > > ........ Henry > > >-- >============================================================ > Henry McGilton | Trilithon Software > Boulevardier, Java Composer | Seroia Research >-------------------------------+---------------------------- > mailto:henry@trilithon.com | http://web.trilithon.com >============================================================
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <mrjones-1301991241330001@user-37kbo4e.dialup.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:29:21 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:24:54 -0800 Mark Haase wrote in message ... >In article <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >> Sometimes they just spew out that stuff. Often they *are* context sensitive. >> They tell you where to go and what to do next. When they shoot a bad guy, >> they say "Did you see that shot!" or "That was a good one" or "Good thing I >> went to target practice". It's a much more enveloping environment. You feel >> much more alone in Unreal. > >Of course, that might be because youre _stranded_ on a planet all by >yourself. Well, there are bad guys, but they don't really want to talk. >And the nali don't speack you language, so sorry, what was your point? My point is this: You are constantly being asked to *read* the log of those who went before you. Boring. Make it a video, or at least add some audio. Having to read the story is just so out of place.
From: "Ziya Oz" <ZiyaOz@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:18:15 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: BM Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <77k9am$q67$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "John Anderson" <janderson@dti.net> wrote: > 4) As one of two standing marketers of traditional desktop PCs, Java has the > potential in the long run to do as much damage to the interests of Apple as > it does to the interests of Microsoft. Agreed. But then why all the fuss of late about Java at Apple? Are you saying it's a smoke screen? **** Ziya
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Beyond YellowBox, Carbon, eQD... Message-ID: <kcin2.8843$XY6.201470@news.san.rr.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:48:28 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:49:20 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Object Technology Licensing Corp. (housed at 1 Infinity Loop) seems to hold the Taligent technology patents (perhaps among others). See their updated web site at http://www.otlc.com/ They have their patent portfolio broken down into these categories: Front of Screen Graphics; Middleware & System Wrappers; People, Places & Things; Notification Systems; Other Functions; Development Tools; Multimedia; Natural Language Processing; Document Processing; Networks. Which, if any, of these technologies do you think would be valuable additions to (or maybe replacements for) the OpenStep-based Yellow Box technologies or the Carbon technologies? I thought I'd ask so I can ready about something other than people complaining (perhaps rightly so) that YB is dead and are (like me) disappointed Mac OS X Intel appears dead. Curious, --Ed.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 13 Jan 99 11:30:44 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan13113044@slave.doubleu.com> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <F5EwHr.AJC@T-FCN.Net> <77g7g3$2cl$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> In-reply-to: seanl@cs.umd.edu's message of 12 Jan 1999 19:23:47 GMT In article <77g7g3$2cl$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) writes: That being said, Scott has failed to realize that like many operating systems, and unlike many other software projects, for the most part Linux is a highly partitionable project once the basic core is done, and can so readily assume a linear man/month curve. One guy ports XWindows, one guy writes the Serial driver, one guy writes awk, etc. There are not n^2 relationships; the number probably approaches n or log(n) relationships among n projects. This somewhat presumes that the Linux developers set out to develop "Linux". To a great extent, it was the other way around. N developers set out to develop M completely seperate projects - and at some point these projects were basically harvested to create what we refer to as Linux (and FreeBSD and others). _Now_, after the fact, the way things came together is almost miraculous, and seems to contradict past theories on how large projects work. But the notion that "if Linux didn't exist, we'd invent it" is very close to the truth, because Linux depends on so much non-Linux prior art. To a certain extent, Linux is made up of those projects which fit within Linux. Meaning that projects which require centralized control over other projects don't happen. Check out autoconf and tell me that much development of things that end up in Linux distributions _isn't_ adaptive! [Again, I argue that this comes down to an ability to apply development "force" out of proportion to development needs. There are just so many people involved in the development and debugging of, say, XFree, that it makes good sense to overspend development resources to achieve a high level of adaptability to a wide variety of operating systems. It's similar to using the excess transistors on a CPU die to build bigger caches. There are potentially better uses for those transistors, but caches are easier and can be done _today_.] Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 13 Jan 99 11:37:37 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan13113737@slave.doubleu.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <369b3def.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> In-reply-to: richard@brainstorm.co.uk's message of 12 Jan 1999 12:19:59 GMT In article <369b3def.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) writes: Unless you know something everyone else doesn't, the operating system that Apple call MacOS X server is still essentially the great workstation operating system formerly known as OPENSTEP. Specifically, the same great workstation operating system formerly known as OPENSTEP which NeXT very publically said was _not_ a server operating system! Or, perhaps that was the hardware. Perhaps NeXT just didn't sell server hardware :-), -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 13 Jan 99 11:16:37 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan13111637@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca><772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca><7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-reply-to: malcolm@plsys.co.uk's message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:56:02 GMT Since I started _this_ particular thread, and this looks to be another major "node" on it... In article <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes: And I don't even think Apple is being stupid (in its own terms). Neither do I. I hope that nobody has taken my negative points as being negative points for Apple's overall potential. I suspect Apple has turned things around, and much of why I'm upset with them is because I _thought_ they were aiming for the stars, and instead it seems their sights are much lower than that. In article <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > Except as a hidden part of WO, Apple wants YB dead. Utter tosh. I have seen no indication of that at all; Ernie made it clear what the position is re *marketing* YB at the BoF, and given everything else it seems again an unfortunate but understandable situation. So far as I can tell, what was made clear was that Apple's confidence level in YellowBox has been _reduced_ since WWDC. Previously, YellowBox/NT was very important to Apple, and they were going to do something with it in the six-month timeframe. Now, it's very important to Apple but they aren't sure what they're going to do with it. [Unless I missed something, Ernie did _not_ say "There'll be big YellowBox/NT news in the Feb/Mar timeframe." Or anything of the sort.] MacOS X was (as Ernie put it) in the dog house for a while and has now emerged with a greater fanfare than many of us would have imagined. I have good reason to expect that the case is the same for YB. In how many years? All that's kept us around the last couple years is that YellowBox seemed to be making progress. It was never _quite_ there, but it was always looking closer. Now it looks more distant. Much of the wailing and gnashing of teeth here seems to be predicated on a number of false premises: (a) YB/NT is going away. No, it isn't. I don't know where that rumour comes from; Apple is trying to resolve licensing issues right now (yes, I know it has taken them a lot longer than any of us wanted, but that doesn't deny that it's happening). Why can't they resolve licensing issues while releasing the new version under the old licenses? If it turns out that someone (let's call them *dobe) is preventing this - then who's to say they'll be able to release anything until they've removed the *dobe portion? Perhaps a year from now? Think about what everyone's been saying here: we know that Java couldn't replace Obj-C right now -- apart from anything else the lack of Categories presents a huge impediment to progress. If Apple wants to move to Java, do you not think that it must address these issues too? Apple declares that there will be one, and only one, Intel version of MacOS X Server. Apple kills MacOS X Server at the 11th hour. Apple declares that there will be an 18-36 month transition period to Java from Objective-C, without any evidence that their _current_ Java stuff has the capability to take over from Objective-C (IMHO, even something so simple as announcing a native compiler integrated with ProjectBuilder would have gone a long ways on that front). So, what does one do if one wants to start some new development in, say, April? Apple's past actions suggest that orphaning Objective-C isn't going to require 36 months, much less 18. And while Java might be where we need it to be in a year, that's a thin hope on which to base development. I _know_ C++ can do the job, and do it today. .... and this is the time now to return to the bigger picture themes. I get the impression some people are taking Apple's moves a bit too "personally" -- "Apple's out to destroy YB and long-term NeXT developers". This is not the case at all. Apple is doing things that it believes are in its best interests, for the *majority* of its users, and in doing so (to more-or-less repeat what may become an infamous quote) there are likely to be some casualties. This doesn't mean Apple is being willfully malicious. One of the few semi-deep quotes in the movie "You've Got Mail" was something on the order of "It's personal to _me_." Regardless of whether Apple is doing right by it's userbase or shareholders, most evidence is that they are _not_ doing right by _me_. In all honesty, if Apple leaves me no reason to stay in their marketspace, in fact gives me good reasons to _leave_ their marketspace to apply my skills, then Apple leaves me no reason to hope for their continued success. Besides, your point is predicated on the notion that not releasing MacOS X Server/Intel and not announcing a real plan for YellowBox/NT will somehow _help_ the majority of Apple's users. I strongly disagree with that, because in my opinion they would get more long-term advantage by keeping the many talented long-term NeXT developers in the fold. What we have to do is to show Apple that there is a *business case* for reversing some of those decisions -- e.g. that McOX/Intel would be a Good Thing for economic/strategic reasons, avoiding any reference to existing OS users, or ex-NeXTers in general (this will only serve to give the impression that we only have selfish interests at heart). We have to show why it is good *for Apple*. I have no interests in spending the next five years babysitting Apple. Apple has well in excess of 50% of the relevant experience. If Apple has determined that MacOS X/Intel or YellowBox/NT isn't a good idea, they're hardly going to listen to me. What do the recent announcements mean for us? That we have to again consider our business plans and roll-out timescales. For most, yes. Is this a Bad Thing? Yes. Do they mean that we should all pack up our toys and go home? For me, I think no. Put them into cold storage if you like, but in the meantime find other ways of leveraging your experience and skills -- there are plenty of opportunities in the YB world, whether in the old NeXT marketplaces, or in the new arenas opened with Apple's customer base. Ask Helios what they think. So, I've been working for two or three years with one arm tied behind my back - now perhaps I should work for another year or so with _both_ arms tied behind my back? Windows sucks, _bad_. But who cares? With all the time my company has spent waiting for Apple to get somewhere, we could have overcome Windows' suckiness twice over. Development would not have been as enjoyable as it can be under OpenStep, but there's something to be said for _shipping_. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "John Anderson" <janderson@dti.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:12:51 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <77kg5f$qbh$1@camel21.mindspring.com> References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <77k9am$q67$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Java is a checkbox! Once you support Java, what else is there to say? It is as dull as supporting perl or Tcl. So Apple supports Java, so does my microwave so what? Yawn. Further, any innovation you might think to add is labeled as "impure", non-standard, less than worthless - an attempt at corruption. YellowBox is impure Java. WebObjects apps written in Java are impure Java. End of story. Very easy for Sun to knock down. Do you really want to impose _two_ runtimes on people to get an app to work? Child's play for Sun's salesforce! Apple betting its future on Java is like Apple promising Sun to inhale a paper bag full of sarin gas. "Thanks for the memories guys!" How can Apple not see this? I think they do, but currently many enterprise customers are two-faced about Java. They are all knee-deep in Java commitments and would like to be pure, but they need to deliver actual solutions and many turn to WebObjects to bail their sorry asses out - because YellowBox and WebObjects actually work. So short-term they can do this. If acting as a shelter for refugees from the crapness of Java is Apple's long-term strategy, though, then something is wrong. I suspect it has to gall SJ to watch Scott McNealy (never exactly asshole buddies these two) walk off with the OO brass ring - after SJ took the arrows at NeXT and evangelized the tech for so long. Left unchallenged Java will come for Apple one day and shut it's lights out permanently . Spun correctly Apple has a real weapon in YB, but either they don't see it, can't believe it, can't get Bill to buy in, or are unsure whether or not they should use it themselves and risk getting attacked in a big way when they are fresh out of intensive care. Basically, they need their weird rich geek pal Microsoft to back them up on this. Although the besieged Empire would seem ready to embrace anything that would promptly detatch Sun from its leg, they may have something of their own cooking in those $2 Bill-ion/yr R&D labs. They would certainly want a piece of Apple's arse for any deal - probably Quicktime. I am also suspicious about the pulling back of Quicktime 4 and the timing of the rumored licensing of the Yellow runtime. There have been rumors of a QT 'trojan horse' Yellow strategy before. Also, rumor has it that Avie was never much an ObjC guy anyway - slowed down his Ferrari OS - hence we hear of a new kernel for MacOS but of course no YellowBox. Then there is the possibility SJ is simply dolling Apple up for that long-awaited sale - in which case the Java emphasis makes sense. Many possibilities, but I keep coming back to SJs statement "Anything Apple and Microsoft do together is a standard". Hmm. Only time will tell... - john Ziya Oz wrote in message <77k9am$q67$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... >"John Anderson" <janderson@dti.net> wrote: > >> 4) As one of two standing marketers of traditional desktop PCs, Java has the >> potential in the long run to do as much damage to the interests of Apple as >> it does to the interests of Microsoft. > >Agreed. > >But then why all the fuss of late about Java at Apple? Are you saying it's a >smoke screen? > >**** >Ziya >
From: "JC Nieukoop" <j.c.nieukoop@kpn-telecom.nl> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Date: 14 Jan 1999 10:57:21 GMT Organization: KPN Telecom Message-ID: <01be3fac$54a3d360$fc3d14ac@153B09.TCD_GN.TELECOM.PTT.NL> References: <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Bx64.9xC@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <8B1271215E3D7DC0.67BA481D5B128955.DB5630388558B5C9@library-proxy.airnews.net> > I can't believe any press room would depend upon NT for its > production. It seems to be happening though. I've heard of print service companies that support both Mac and Windows advising their clients to go with Windows if they have the choice. > Also, if Apple were to open up OSX so third parties could > put Linux under it, that would change things. (of course, Apple shows > not sign of doing that.) I don't think Linux means much in this bussiness.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:47:03 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77kp05$rmv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ygcemp1a173.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> In article <ygcemp1a173.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me>, smithwNOSPAM@tankNO.math.byu.edu (Dr. William V. Smith) wrote: > The difficulty with mosxs is what happens to it in a year. With > Apple employees taking the trouble to spread the idea that mosx > will be very different from mosxs, one has to worry that whatever > technology is present in mosxs may be gone in a year. Will apps > made for mosxs have any hope of running on mosx? I have that > sinking feeling from all that has happened in the last week that > the answer may be no. > Why? Where on earth is your evidence for this?! This question was put to the panel at the BoF, and it generated the not entirely surprising answer that "Most apps will run". There may be some "gotcha"s, notably if the app makes use of PostScript wraps rather than straight PS function calls, but other than that there should be no problems. mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Message-ID: <tbrown-1401990959100001@da212.ecr.net> References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:59:10 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:59:52 CDT In article <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com>, "John Anderson" <janderson@dti.net> wrote: >All for the price of a garbage collector and a phone call to Bill. >Straightforward enough for you? Marketing can be your friend. It's that phone call to Bill that's the real difficult part here.....MS doesn't have that great of a track record in helping those it signs agreements with. Any aggrement of such nature will be Really good for MS, very bad (in the long term) for Apple. And if Apple is going to offer 'FOO' free and deal with MS, they might as well saddle up to the OpenSource community. It'd be better if Apple pushed the Java team, with several members quite familiar with OpenStep & Obj-c, to adopt those features of Obj-C into Java to make Java 'first-class'. Sun seems to be slowly moving to letting Java really be free, as well as thinking about how to make Solaris Open Source. Leave other (IBM, Sun, HP) to worry about the Java Compilier et all. The rest of OpenSource, incl Linux, is gathering mindshare & marketshare at a great rate. With support from companies like IBM, Sun, Oracle, Sybase, etc it is hardly some outre risky proposition. The only problem is how to make money off it. I'll posit that the potential to make money via OpenSource is greater than doing so with deals with MS. Apple even has some great pieces to help pave the way, while leaving propriety sw to make money on. Apple could donate the full obj-c runtime, the java-obj-c bridge, NSObject, QDe, IOKit, their modified Mach kernel, and the BSD-Mach layer just to name a few. A Big help would be to get Motorola & IBM to allow all their compilier tech for the PPC to be released into gcc/egcs. This leaves Apple with Carbon, Quicktime, & Yellow as proprietary technology, as well as a hw business. I'd wager that the hw business would do a better job if you'd grab some real attention of business & the open-source community. Though, in the scale of what you suggested, Apple should release all of YB as OpenSource as well. Thus, you'd be able to create Mac OS X Intel (- Quicktime) off the OpenSource from Apple. Apple would then market Carbon (PPC, Intel, Alpha, NT/96 Intel), Quicktime, WebObjects, consulting as well as sell Macs. Though in this environment, I'm sure Apple would easily get YB be considered 'part of Java' and could use that to get QT considered to be practically part of Java. Considering the quality & potential of the YB tools, Apple would cause some shockwaves to run through various other proprietary vendors and greatly expand the mindshare & potential market for WebObjects and it's consulting (isn't that where Apple makes most of money on WebObjects?). This is known as 'betting the farm', but it's better than the MS proposition of this scale, which is known as 'slitting your throat'. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Devil's Advocacy Date: 14 Jan 1999 09:58:39 -0500 Organization: Quick and Associates Message-ID: <77l0mv$48m@papoose.quick.com> First, don't get me wrong. I, too, am angered by the recent cancelation of OSX Server for Intel. The pricing, silence about YB runtimes, and general failure to be communicative and support the faithful NeXT developers is all troubling. I was thinking about these issues this morning when I thought of an interpretation different from those I have heard recently in csna. It does not stop me from thinking these things suck, but it does make me look at the problem in a different way. People have been talking mostly about tangibles; the technology itself, which has been ready to ship in some forms for years, the fact that a number of developers and users are interested in a decent workstation (rather than server), the fact that ObjC is technically superior to Java. What no one has mentioned is that Apple's crown jewels are not related to any of these things. They are not even directly related to MacOS itself. Apple's great assets are intangible: it is the brand identity of Apple and Macintosh along with the loyalty that they command, not its technology, that holds the companies real worth. The majority of people, computer literate or not, associate Apple with ease of use, with friendly, accessible technologies. There are a number of negative connotations which have clung to the Apple brand over the years stemming both from the predominant position of Microsoft in the marketplace and the fact that MacOS was, and largely still is a "toy" OS. These negative aspects of the brand are reflected in many people's perception of Apple as non-standard, lacking in apps, lacking in flexibility or power. The bottom line, however, is that even many Microsoft supporters if asked what OS is the simplest to use might answer Macintosh, before continuing by stating "but you should use Windows anyway, because the Mac ... (reason du jour for Apple death)". The technology of OSX whether shipped as server, workstation, or desktop OS can radically change many of the negative perceptions surrounding Apple. It cannot, however, remedy all of them. The perception that Apple has little software available, and is a small marketplace, would only be strengthened by a wide promotion of OSX Server at this time as anything other than a server. It's promotion might also damage the Apple brand in the eyes of the average consumer. Given, OSX technology is in every technical respect superior to what Microsoft has to offer. Given, OSX is scalable and robust where older Mac technology is not. But, OSX server, if placed in front of the average Mac user would be seen as more difficult and more confusing, presenting potential harm to the Apple brand awareness. OSX server if reviewed in the trade press right now, would be judged by how many applications are available for it *right now*, and how many potential users there are for it *right now*, not by it's technical merits alone. Until an affordable or free runtime is available for Windows *and* a consumer ready version of the OS is released, the most glowing writeup from the trade press would certainly qualify the OS with "but it is still only for power users, and little software is available". Carbon compliant applications and the roll-out of OSX consumer can defuse those arguments. Nothing but promises can be wielded against them right now. Bad press is remembered far longer than any other. We as developers, and long time NeXT users, see the tangibles and think them obvious. The average person has neither the experience nor vocabulary to directly understand our point of view. The elegance of the APIs, the flexibility and beauty of delegation and run-time binding, device independence and seamless dithering of the postscript imaging model. To most we are a bunch of technical elitists or geeks, we are irrelevant. It's sad, but the average person and those who write for them are impressed by quantity not quality. I do believe that YB is in Apple's long term best interests, so I am not inclined to believe the YB death rumors. I also believe that stressing the importance of Java is in Apple's interests. The fact that ObjC is so much better than Java for the internals of the YB runtime makes me confident that the Java focus is not the immediate death knell for the ObjC language. I am sad to hear that several outstanding and valuable members of the NeXT community are changing their plans over recent announcements. This makes financial sense to them. That is unfortunate, but Apple's actions (mostly failures to act) have given them little choice. I can only hope that in a year or so, it will behoove them to return to us. I would rather not think of having to work under OSX without Stuart, and WriteUp. Yes, I want the technology now. I think they should have shipped both Intel and PPC versions to developers when server was first ready in the fall. But I can also see how Apple might view the situation. Only profitability, and the long term success of the Apple brand matter. I wish I knew what mmalcom has been refering to. I wish that Apple was more open about their plans and their policies, that felt they could still release what they have to those who would immediately benefit without risking harm to their wider plans. I also know that those wishes are just that. Sorry for rambling like this, but hey, it *is* advocacy. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. ) |
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Devil's Advocacy Date: 14 Jan 1999 16:40:36 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77l6m4$9oo$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <77l0mv$48m@papoose.quick.com> James E. Quick <jq@papoose.quick.com> wrote, in part: : People have been talking mostly about tangibles; the technology : itself, which has been ready to ship in some forms for years, the : fact that a number of developers and users are interested in a : decent workstation (rather than server), the fact that ObjC is : technically superior to Java. : What no one has mentioned is that Apple's crown jewels are not : related to any of these things. They are not even directly related : to MacOS itself. Apple's great assets are intangible: it is the : brand identity of Apple and Macintosh along with the loyalty that : they command, not its technology, that holds the companies real worth. I appreciate your essay and it does help crystallize what has been bothering me this last week. Too much of what used to be technology is now brand identity. UIs, APIs, and development environments have their corporate backers and are spun to suit boring corporate goals. Apple keeps the Mac because it is a brand identity. It's like the new Ford Mustang - it can look new, but it still has to look like a Mustang. When I started in this business (close to twenty years ago) there were complete product revolutions every 2 or 3 years. A new computer, a new OS, a new Word Processor, they came and went. No one had lock-in. The way to compete was to introduce a new product, and not just a new revision. In a short twenty years, the market has stabilized. Everything is Revisionware(*). The depressing part is the inevitability of it all. Microsoft doesn't even number their revisions anymore, and I expect that within a few years people like Adobe will catch on. Rather than Photoshop 17.0 on Windows 10.3, people will be running Photoshop 2010 on windows 2008. John * - Yahoo and Dejanews show now hits for this term. You saw it here first!
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:53:20 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77l7gv$2rp@shelob.afs.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ygcemp1a173.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77kp05$rmv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >This question was put to the panel at the BoF, and it generated >the not entirely surprising answer that "Most apps will run". "Not entirely surprising," because what else would you expect an Apple employee to say in a public forum when the God's honest truth is "I don't know, because we haven't actually written most of it yet"? How about that 90% NEXTSTEP-to-OPENSTEP translator? How about the 90% Carbon compatibility tester? It's just touch-up work after that, right? Riiiiiiiight. >There may be some"gotcha"s, notably if the app makes use >of PostScript wraps rather than straight PS function calls, >but other than that there should be no problems. Just like the "no problems" nature of OPENSTEP 4.0? It took two more releases to get most of that stuff working right, and it still had flaws. Let's face it, there is going to be a fair amount of non-rigorously-field-tested code in OSX/Consumer -- like a whole new graphics engine -- and with old NEXTSTEP developers dropping away like flies, who do you think is going to make sure that the shake-down cruise actually reveals the lingering problems? Look how long the RDR1/RDR2/OSXS cycle took, with new kernels and whatnot. I repeat my earlier contention: anyone who thinks getting from OSXS to OSX is going to be a no-brainer, is fooling himself. It's going to require complete code revalidation, a certain amount of rewriting, a new beta test group, and likely a few Apple-induced bugs that won't get fixed before general release and will have to be worked around. And that's just if things go mostly right. Someone talked about only having to wait until the end of the year to start having a market to sell into. I'll eat a CDROM if Apple releases a Gold Master of OSX/Consumer in 1999. It's not going to happen, so let's not get back into the "over-promise, under-deliver" game again. Greg
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:03:54 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <77lbia$c0k$1@remarQ.com> References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <tbrown-1401990959100001@da212.ecr.net> In article <tbrown-1401990959100001@da212.ecr.net>, Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote: >>All for the price of a garbage collector and a phone call to Bill. >>Straightforward enough for you? Marketing can be your friend. MS has a license to print money with the Windows API. Everybody has to write to it, and they're the sole supplier. They're not going to throw that away. >It'd be better if Apple pushed the Java team, with several members quite >familiar with OpenStep & Obj-c, to adopt those features of Obj-C into Java >to make Java 'first-class'. Java (the language) isn't all that bad. Still some work to be done on compiler technology and speed increases, and categories would be a major win, but it's not that bad. Java's API frameworks are getting quite a bit better. AWT sucked rocks, Swing is a pretty close conceptual knockoff of OpenStep. It needs to be debugged, though. It's not clear to me that OSX will be that much better of an environment to write to a year from now. -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:22:59 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77lcm3$c4m$1@news.xmission.com> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <369b3def.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <SCOTT.99Jan13113737@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:22:59 GMT scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > In article <369b3def.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>, > richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) writes: > Unless you know something everyone else doesn't, the operating > system that Apple call MacOS X server is still essentially the > great workstation operating system formerly known as OPENSTEP. > > Specifically, the same great workstation operating system formerly > known as OPENSTEP which NeXT very publically said was _not_ a server > operating system! > > Or, perhaps that was the hardware. Perhaps NeXT just didn't sell > server hardware :-), -- Great point. Which brings up an interesting observation. NeXT said that before Windows NT Server existed, IIRC. Since the introduction of Windows NT Server, the meaning of "server" is a lot less than it used to be. In the same sense as "OPENSTEP [... is] _not_ a server operating system", Windows NT Server isn't a server operating system either. Brilliantly, Microsoft redefined "server"for us. Using the new meaning of the term, OPENSTEP makes a terriffic server--better than Windows NT Server, in fact! So it makes sense to Apple to ride on Microsoft's coattails and take advantage of this whole new, ahem, marketing opportunity... <sarcasm> Aren't you glad we have Microsoft around to "innovate"? If you can't successfully create something, just redefine it to match whatever the heck it is that you created...now _that_ is innovation! With innovations like this, how can anyone even claim that Microsoft doesn't have any original ideas? </sarcasm> -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: cleric@yale.graduate.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 14 Jan 1999 17:36:45 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <cleric-1401991238430001@227.arlington-28-29rs.va.dial-access.att.net> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <369b3def.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <SCOTT.99Jan13113737@slave.doubleu.com> In article <SCOTT.99Jan13113737@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > Or, perhaps that was the hardware. Perhaps NeXT just didn't sell > server hardware :-), Hey, I'll be happy to compare "server" performance of a 450 MHz G3 Pro to even a Nitro Cube any day of the week...as long as they're both running OpenStep. -- Dr John Kuszewski KGB Software Corp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: edremy@chemserver.chem.vt.edu Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:30:35 GMT In <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> Eric Remy wrote: > > Apple is moving to OS-X shortly, can you provide any reasonable > arguments > >that it is _clearly_ in Apple's best interests to release a largely > >incompatible OS (with either of the others you'd compare it with) for a > >period that's likely to last about one year? > > Because Apple has been "moving to a superior OS in a year" for five years > now. Sorry Eric, that's not an answer. The question is "can you provide any reasonable arguments that it is _clearly_ in Apple's best interests to release a largely incompatible OS". I'm still waiting. > I'll believe that OSX is real when I hold the CD in my hand. Me too. > Meanwhile, Rhapsody could be shipping today as a competitor to NT and > Linux, both of which have large, positive growth rates. And that means what? Are you seriously claiming that simply releasing a modern OS will result in "large, positive growth rates"? Don't be silly. > I _really_ want a decent OS from Apple. Great, so do I. Is this your argument? Maury
Message-ID: <369E35C1.7571089D@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:30:12 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:27:36 CDT John Anderson wrote: > 5) Apple and Microsoft are partners. > > Given the Business Realities there appear two alternatives: > > Apple slowly abandons YB and surrenders to Java - somewhat stupidly offering > its throat up to Scott McNealy for the cutting. > > or > > Steve Jobs announces to great fanfare with partner Microsoft: Yeah, and just for fun, remember what Scott McNealy said in '94 on NeXT's NEXTIME CD-ROM: "I wanted to talk a little bit about how important I think OPENSTEP is, and what we're doing with NeXT and the entire organization. SUN, as you know, has a history of being very dedicated and commited to the direction it takes, we call it all the wood behind one arrowhead, or no insurance policies. We looked around, evaluated our own technology, our own object request brokers, object management facilities, all the all built around DOE on top of Solaris, and said we need a display and application services and development environment on top of that. We looked around the industry, we looked at what we were doing internally, we looked at Taligent, we looked at NeXT and NEXTSTEP and did an evaluation, looked at the pricing terms and conditions, and commitment to openess, and we made a very, very firm one company decision, one interface decision, one architecture decision. We have decided to go with OPENSTEP. The reason I go through all of that is, I think we have a fairly clear track record of being very commited to the architectures and directions that we're taking. We are not a company that has a whole host of operating systems, microprocessor architectures, network schemes, all the rest of it, that are strategic and the ones we evangelize. We've had one strategy, and our new strategy is OPENSTEP. We're very excited about it, we're very pleased that NeXT decided to open up it's interfaces, make them barrier free, in the same way that SPARC and UNIX and NFS and other volume architectures in the marketplace are. We think that's a big win, we think that's a big win for the developers. So my message to you all is that SUN is absolutely commited. I think what we see with SUN and NeXT and OPENSTEP is the right architecture. A barrier free, published open specification called OPENSTEP, multiple implementations, multiple hardware architectures that it runs on. A commitment to binary, and source and network and interoperability standards and compatibility, and the best object teams at NeXT and SunSoft both implementing to an environment that you, the ISV will get: volume, compatibility, performance, scalability, and the right innovation, and you won't get locked into one vendor. And the good news is that NeXT and SUN are not going to compete with you, like the evil empire, in the pacific northwest wants to do in the object space. They'd like to own that and the object application environment. We're not going to go do that. We're going to cooperate and work in a very synergistic, complementary way with the ISV. So you have major investments, major available market, we're going to drive unit volume. We're very, very excited about seeing OPENSTEP and NEXTSTEP win in the marketplace and we think we can win along with NeXT, and the whole OPENSTEP architecture." What a bunch of lies, huh?! Also recall that Apple implied a partnership with Sun for Servers a while back - but who knows... > The Bill Gates Video: "At Microsoft we are very excited about working > with Steve and Apple on Foo. Foo on NT and Windows 2000 provides our > developers with an extremely powerful and robust platform for creating next > generation applications." Sure, just like McNealy, huh?! Then Billy "Bob" Gates comes out with M$ "Active Foo OO" (pun intended -- it can be like 2000 or Object Oriented) and drops support for Apple's Foo. -Eric
From: eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:49:39 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Message-ID: <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> In article <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: >On 11 Jan 1999 05:12:15 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >>>Why wouldn't it include WO when the 25tpm version >>>is now free, and the only part of WO that isn't free and doesn't ship >>>with the dev tools is WOB? >> Where are you people pulling this FREE business from? >> >> WOF 4.0 costs $1500 to buy. Deployment is included for 25 >>TPM. > >And what part of WO isn't included in YB? WOB and WOF? If the 25 tpm >version of WOF is a free deployment now, that leaves only WOB. > >So that one little part is $1000? > >As much as I was very pleased with the DR2 version, I doubt that I'll >stick around unless there is some solid reason to. If anything, I'll >just pay the $1500 for WO and run it on NT. I'm perfectly happy selling >NT boxes to my clients. My greatest fear is that they gut the BSD and POSIX layer from MacOS X in order to differentiate between OS X and OS X Server.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: chuck@codefab.com Organization: needs one References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:55:17 GMT In <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote: > Where was the -6 being displayed? Console. Nothing else got anything at all, including gdb. Maury
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Transcript available? Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:00:25 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-140119991200490881@100.minneapolis-21-22rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 Does anyone know where to find a transcript of yesterday's conference call? All I can find is some notes on AppleInsider: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/apple-conference-call.shtml It sounds like Apple is choosing its words very carefully when it says OSX client will come out "in about a year" -- those same exact words. Why are they so coy? Maybe because you can add one and one and make it two years, but it's still "about" one? I dunno, it just sounds fishy to me. The same notes also say they don't anticipate OSX server to be a big deal. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: eric@EMIEng.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Apple developers not to receive free MXS? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <369e2c23.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> Date: 14 Jan 99 17:40:51 GMT The Macintosh News Network site (www.macnn.com) posted the following information for today: Apple says that registered develpers will not be receiving copies of Mac OS X Server as part of their monthly developer seedings: "We will not be seeding developers before Mac OS X Server ships. At that time, we expect to make Mac OS X Server available to ADC members at a discount, potentially in a more limited version. We hope to be able to provide additional information in an FAQ soon.""
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: YB Dead? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5KBAq.40A@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: greg@afs.com Organization: needs one References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:28:01 GMT In <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote: > Not necessarily. We all agree it plays an important role in WebObjects, > which is selling well by all accounts. That justifies the engineers. It > does > NOT translate into general support for YB as a preferred general purpose > development environment. Whoa, that's a LOT different than saying it's dead! > I have read at least one person's interpretation of what was said at the > BoF that radically differs from your report. Not having been there myself, I > have no way of knowing which interpretation is closer to the truth. But it > doesn't seem as cut and dry as you presented it. It sounds like the attitude is mellowing all around. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5KB0B.3rv@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: janderson@dti.net Organization: needs one References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:21:46 GMT In <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> "John Anderson" wrote: > Given the Business Realities there appear two alternatives: > > Apple slowly abandons YB and surrenders to Java - somewhat stupidly > offering its throat up to Scott McNealy for the cutting. Ok. > or > > Steve Jobs announces to great fanfare with partner Microsoft: > > "FOO"!!! Let me see if I have to right, partnering with Sun by using Java is a bad idea because Scott N might be trouble, but partnering with MS is just fine? Some argument that is! You also neglect to mention why MS would want anything to do with it, because they won't. Maury
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <9hum2.474$Yi3.89865@news.shore.net> <77e3dk$cfq$1@decius.ultra.net> <77e8p9$q2$1@plo.sierra.com> <77g35f$gtr$1@decius.ultra.net> <77g7ve$lge$1@plo.sierra.com> <mrjones-1301991241330001@user-37kbo4e.dialup.mindspring.com> <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com> <77k7b9$tm$4@208.236.238.187> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:32:50 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:28:24 -0800 Hath wrote in message <77k7b9$tm$4@208.236.238.187>... >it's a *translator*. do I *HAVE* to spell it out for you? What is it translating? It looks like other humans, but maybe not. So they can travel to alien worlds, but can only translate to text? They don't have text to speech technology? Hello?
From: edremy@chemserver.chem.vt.edu (Eric Remy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:39:33 -0500 Organization: Va Tech Message-ID: <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:39:34 GMT In article <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >> Because Apple has been "moving to a superior OS in a year" for five years >> now. > And that means what? Are you seriously claiming that simply releasing a >modern OS will result in "large, positive growth rates"? Don't be silly. No- I'm claiming that professionals/corporations are switching from things like Win95 to Linux and NT. They could be switching to Rhapsody, but they can't- not due to technical reasons, but marketing ones. Stupid move. >> I _really_ want a decent OS from Apple. > > Great, so do I. Is this your argument? Yep. For example, I'm probably going to buy a computer in the next year for myself. Am I going to buy a Mac? I seriously don't know- I bought a 6100 many years ago since Copland was coming soon. Mistake. I have a lot less patience with the crappy OS that underlies the Mac when other choices are available such as NT or Linux. (And have more software/support.) If I could buy a copy of Rhapsody for a Mac and get both a decent OS + good GUI + Blue Box support of old apps, I would. I'd even pay NT like prices for one, as a premium over MacOS. But I'm not going to pay a thousand bucks for it. WebObjects means nothing to me, nor does the unlimited server license. Now, you can comment that Apple will only lose one year of sales to people like me, but given Apple's dismal track record for shipping a modern user-level OS, it could be many more years. Still, since the iMac is selling and Steve would rather have fruit-colored computers than a modern OS, Apple won't bother to ship a modern, affordable OS today. -- Eric Remy. Chemistry Learning Center Director, Virginia Tech "Any desired property can be computed from the Schrodinger equation for the system. The solution is left as an exercise for the reader." JIR, 3rd Ed.
From: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Alexander Wilkie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:46:00 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Message-ID: <77le18$ih0$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ygcemp1a173.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77kp05$rmv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77l7gv$2rp@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: greg@afs.com In <77l7gv$2rp@shelob.afs.com> "Greg Anderson" wrote: [snip] > I'll eat a CDROM if Apple releases a Gold Master of OSX/Consumer in 1999. At least there is _one_ thread in this newsgroup to look forward to, starting sometime in mid-December this year >;-) BTW: what about raising the stakes a bit? Say, like promising that you'll eat a CDROM with a *Microsoft* product on it if OSXC ships before November? "Do you want fries with that, Mr. Anderson?" $0.2E-32 Alexander Wilkie -- e-mail: wilkie@cg.tuwien.ac.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME o.k.) www : http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/staff/AlexanderWilkie.html pgp : finger wilkie@www.cg.tuwien.ac.at
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PzdBUE56vB4d@localhost> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Just waitin' 'n seein'... (Re: OS X Server price strategy) References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: 14 Jan 99 19:21:13 GMT On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:13:34, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) thought aloud: [...] > And come on people, how is any of this different that the situation two > years ago? Then it was uncertain that the company wouldn't go out of > business and take the OS with it. In addition it was pretty clear they > were not going forward with the OS. The difference is now that only the > later is a possibility, one most of us dismiss as moronic. > > Do the math, which one of these is a better situation for a yellow box > programmer? It would be interesting to know where GNUstep might be today if the *step community - along with Linux folks - had decided to give it a serious push those two years ago (while waiting Apple to release the stuff "within 12 months"). GNOME started from near-zero later than that and it seems to be doing nice progress already and might well be reaching millions of desktop this spring. Java sprang from nowhere to become the second-most popular API, and language, in just a couple of years, and opening the source looks to have given it new staying power. All the while *STEP (and Obj-C) were waiting for someone (Apple in this case) to make things happen. Well, when hope springs eternal spending another year or so waiting shouldn't make any difference. Rgds, -- taiQ [this space is intentionally blank]
From: Guy Chapman <gchapman@SPAMLESSpatrol.i-way.co.uk> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Why can't Apple do that? Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:35:19 GMT Organization: Posted via VBCnet GB Ltd Message-ID: <VA.00000067.021489b4@gchapman.ussurg.com> References: <E855BAD324B96EBA.DB2B50A978A6A1B7.02F57E701739C691@library-proxy.airnews.net> <Ncsk2.573$K12.81546@news.shore.net> <jrnaylor-0501991209390001@ts002d33.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn7950md.kk1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501991725240001@ts002d22.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn795lj5.o7a.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jrnaylor-0501992330030001@ts001d30.wic-ks.concentric.net> <slrn796avu.qcs.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <stevehix-0601991732110001@192.168.1.10> <slrn799t39.83n.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > An 030 is quite a machine to be stuck using in this day and > age. One seriously wonders why someone who claims to be or > have been a professional would put up using such a machine > if it's not been keeping up with his needs. For some people, it does keep up with their needs. You ca still run QXP on it, for example, if you stuff it with RAM. ======================================================= Guy Chapman, IT Wallah, NT guru, Mac lover, Volvo driver. Y'all have a problem with that? GChapman@SPAMLESSpatrol.iway.co.uk www.i-way.co.uk/~gchapman =======================================================
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: YB developers wanted... Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:20:04 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ljhb$j7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> ... in the midst of all the doom and gloom, we now have more YB-related work than we ever had during the NeXT era, so if you haven't yet been totally disheartened and you're interested in starting work in the London area soon, please drop me an email. Best wishes, mmalc. Technical Marketing Manager P & L Systems (developers of the Mesa spreadsheet) http://www.plsys.co.uk/plsys/ Tel: +44 1494 432422 Fax: +44 1494 432478 -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Message-ID: <hajfGWQzdqYS@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 13 Jan 99 23:12:26 MDT References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > > > Sorry, but MacOS X Server on the Intel side was killed because it didn't > > fit into their *marketing* plan. If you learn to read AppleSpeak, > > you'll see the same thing happening here. Pull yourself out of the > > reality distortion field for a few minutes. > > > > I've been involved with the NeXT community since 1990. I think I have > learned to be more discriminating than you give me credit for. So have I. I bought my first NeXT cube in July 1990. Perhaps once you were more discriminating. Your words recently seem to indicate otherwise. > > > And some of us have seen concrete evidence that they're working on > > > [YB/Windows licensing] -- I'm sorry I can't say more. > > > > We're sorry you can't too. But experience has shown that when Apple > > doesn't say anything, it's because Bad News is on the horizon that they > > don't want to take the heat for. > > > > No, Apple has made it clear that the policy is not to say anything about > anything, good or bad, and for sensible reasons. Yes, you're repeating it yet again. Proof by assertion. Say it loud enough and people might begin to believe you. "That's what they say..." Well, it's been made clear that people don't believe what is being said. Actions are speaking louder than words right now, and people are finally looking past the words intended to placate and seeing the actions that are, intentionally or not, destroying the infrastructure of YB development. > > Your read is through the rose-colored glasses that Steve passed out > > before the conference. Face the music, YB is dead, dead, dead. > > > Bollocks. > > My read is through talking to relevant Apple folks at MacWorld, and hearing > about what projects are underway. We saw what happened to the Newton. If > Jobs wanted to scrap YB there wouldn't be engineers working on it now. > > Where is your evidence the YB is dead? There you go with the "evidence" again. You know as well as I that only Apple can show "evidence". And Apple chooses to make vague statements about marketing instead. They had every opportunity to put up or shut up. And they've decided to shut up. Instead of providing "evidence", I'm simply looking at how Apple has behaved in the past under nearly identical circumstances. And in the absence of the evidence that Apple alone could provide, I use *that* to predict their behavior in the near future. And that's the way Apple is forcing us to do things, because Apple won't say what they're up to. Don't ask for evidence, I don't have it. All I have is Apple's *actions*. And that right now is speaking volumes louder than anything they're saying publicly.
From: seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:29:00 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <77lr3c$fi3$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <F5EwHr.AJC@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan13113044@slave.doubleu.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:29:00 GMT Scott Hess (scott@nospam.doubleu.com) wrote: > In article <77g7g3$2cl$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> seanl@cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) writes: > That being said, Scott has failed to realize that like many > operating systems, and unlike many other software projects, for the > most part Linux is a highly partitionable project once the basic > core is done, and can so readily assume a linear man/month curve. > One guy ports XWindows, one guy writes the Serial driver, one guy > writes awk, etc. There are not n^2 relationships; the number > probably approaches n or log(n) relationships among n projects. > This somewhat presumes that the Linux developers set out to develop > "Linux". To a great extent, it was the other way around. N > developers set out to develop M completely seperate projects - and at > some point these projects were basically harvested to create what we > refer to as Linux (and FreeBSD and others). _Now_, after the fact, > the way things came together is almost miraculous, and seems to > contradict past theories on how large projects work. But the notion > that "if Linux didn't exist, we'd invent it" is very close to the > truth, because Linux depends on so much non-Linux prior art. There is truth to this. But I think this "coming together" isn't a miracle even in retrospect -- it's a result of a history and tradition of predefined interfaces. Linux's awk, say, doesn't work on Linux just out of chance: it works because the Linux kernel libraries were written to be compliant with specific traditional UNIX specifications (be they BSD or SysV), and awk was also written to use those traditional UNIX specifications. Much of what makes the Linux project able to escape the Mythical Man-Month is, I'd bet, a common reliance on a huge battery of tools and API specifications sweated out over decades of UNIX development (indeed, Multics development!), which lowered, though certainly didn't eliminate, the need for intercommunication between the various Linux developers. Thus the awk writer didn't have to make his system compatible with Linux. He only had to make it compatible with UNIX. Obviously this is the most general case, but I think it probably handles some 90% of the work that went into Linux. Now it's wrong for me to be saying that Operating Systems are like this and other software projects are not. After all, the Mythical Man Month was based on experience with an operating system development project (OS/360). I think what I mean to say is that UNIX clones, and other similar systems that have enormous interface work already traditionally defined, can more easily escape the Mythical Man Month through parallelism than can a _brand_new_ system, such as OS/360 was at the time, which require tremendous intercommunication to set up those interfaces to begin with. > To a certain extent, Linux is made up of those projects which fit > within Linux. Meaning that projects which require centralized control > over other projects don't happen. Check out autoconf and tell me that > much development of things that end up in Linux distributions _isn't_ > adaptive! Sure. But I still think Linux's development success still stems from two core features. First, Linux was originally worked on by *one* guy, who established protocols that to this day are still part and parcel of the kernel. Second, Linux is founded on traditions in UNIX which already prespecified a very very large number of programmer-to-programmer interfaces and agreements. Sean
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:40:21 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p26.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369E643B.85DC6B6F@tone.ca> References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ygcemp1a173.fsf@tank.i-have-a-misconfigured-system-so-shoot-me> <77kp05$rmv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77l7gv$2rp@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:40:12 GMT Greg Anderson wrote: > malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > > >There may be some"gotcha"s, notably if the app makes use > >of PostScript wraps rather than straight PS function calls, > >but other than that there should be no problems. > > Just like the "no problems" nature of OPENSTEP 4.0? It took two more > releases to get most of that stuff working right, and it still had flaws. > Let's face it, there is going to be a fair amount of > non-rigorously-field-tested code in OSX/Consumer -- like a whole new > graphics engine -- and with old NEXTSTEP developers dropping away like > flies, who do you think is going to make sure that the shake-down cruise > actually reveals the lingering problems? Look how long the RDR1/RDR2/OSXS > cycle took, with new kernels and whatnot. > > I repeat my earlier contention: anyone who thinks getting from OSXS to OSX > is going to be a no-brainer, is fooling himself. It's going to require > complete code revalidation, a certain amount of rewriting, a new beta test > group, and likely a few Apple-induced bugs that won't get fixed before > general release and will have to be worked around. And that's just if things > go mostly right. > > Someone talked about only having to wait until the end of the year to start > having a market to sell into. I'll eat a CDROM if Apple releases a Gold > Master of OSX/Consumer in 1999. It's not going to happen, so let's not get > back into the "over-promise, under-deliver" game again. > > Greg I pretty much agree with all you say, but a couple points: I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the number of sales you will have between now and MacOSX, for reasons I've mentioned in other posts. However hard it will be going from OSXS to OSX, it will be a lot easier than the Carbon apps, and I'm willing to bet a lot of them (like Quark) don't bother getting it done in time for the OSX release, giving you guys a little window. (I say this because of experience with, for example, the port to PowerPC.) There are enough Quark users unhappy enough with the company, that their hold on the market could be cut into by the right product. Michael Monner
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:17:15 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77lqdb$q69$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com> <77k7b9$tm$4@208.236.238.187> <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com> In article <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com>, Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote: >So they can travel to alien worlds, but can only translate to text? They >don't have text to speech technology? Hello? Dunno about you, but games that insist on delivering everything via spoken words really irritate me. For one thing, the voice actors are usually abysmal. For another, I can read far faster than most people talk, and while I can absorb a screen of text (especially a little bitty translator screen) pretty quickly, I have to sit through the whole stupid spoken-word thing to make sure I've got everything I need to know. Give me text anytime. At least the guys in Half-Life don't ramble on and on at you... Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) Subject: Re: The demise of MacOS X Server for Intel? Message-ID: <adtF5KMtt.KuB@netcom.com> Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Organization: ICGNetcom References: <770lcr$8qg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Bx64.9xC@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <8B1271215E3D7DC0.67BA481D5B128955.DB5630388558B5C9@library-proxy.airnews.net> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:05 GMT Sender: adt@netcom5.netcom.com hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm) wrote: > Killing MacOSX Server/Intel is plain stupid. Three reasons: > > 1) Replacing PC hardware with Apple hardware is not an option in most > large companies. On the other hand, buying Apple software is an option. I'm not sure about that. An end-user PC would be tough to replace but a server is a different story. Basically MacOS X Server for Intel is bridge that let's existing Nextstep customer convert hardware at their leisure, and keep using their existing software. The software is probably all that is important to these companies, hardware gets replaced periodically anyway, and they probably don't really care what it is as long as it runs their existing software and tools. Tony -- ------------------ Tony Tribelli adtribelli@acm.org
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:34:45 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369E7105.11125CEE@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com> <77k7b9$tm$4@208.236.238.187> <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com> <77lqdb$q69$1@decius.ultra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Josh Brandt wrote: > Dunno about you, but games that insist on delivering everything via spoken > words really irritate me. For one thing, the voice actors are usually > abysmal. But Half-Life's are excellent. > For another, I can read far faster than most people talk, and while > I can absorb a screen of text (especially a little bitty translator screen) > pretty quickly, I have to sit through the whole stupid spoken-word thing to > make sure I've got everything I need to know. Which is why I never go to working meetings. "Just send me email, that way I don't have to sit and listen to your drunken gibberish, you insufferable morons," I tell everyone. It's blessed to hide from reality. Unfortunately for both of us, more reality is the trend in computer gaming. > Give me text anytime. At least the guys in Half-Life don't ramble on and on > at you... Sometimes they do. But I just figured they were being true-to-form, for scientists. The geeks tend to ramble a lot more than the Special Forces dudes, for instance. MJP
From: jwct@magma.ca (J.W. Corey Tamas) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <jwct-1401991749060001@port-2-206.magma.ca> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com> <77k7b9$tm$4@208.236.238.187> <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com> <77lqdb$q69$1@decius.ultra.net> Organization: Ace Biscuit Web Solutions Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:45:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:45:12 EDT In article <77lqdb$q69$1@decius.ultra.net>, mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) wrote: > In article <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com>, > Earl Malmrose <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> wrote: > > >So they can travel to alien worlds, but can only translate to text? They > >don't have text to speech technology? Hello? > > Dunno about you, but games that insist on delivering everything via spoken > words really irritate me. For one thing, the voice actors are usually > abysmal. For another, I can read far faster than most people talk, and while > I can absorb a screen of text (especially a little bitty translator screen) > pretty quickly, I have to sit through the whole stupid spoken-word thing to > make sure I've got everything I need to know. > > Give me text anytime. At least the guys in Half-Life don't ramble on and on > at you... My brother is a very avid gaming fan, but is also stone deaf. Games like Riven (a GREAT game) that rely heavily on sound cues are greatly frustrating to him. Similarly, he's not a bad Quake player, but often gets smoked because he doesn't hear some of the sound cues that other players do, and doesn't realize he's giving off sound cues that help other players whup his ass. He couldn't play Journeyman 3 at all because the little yapping robot that helps you out is of no use to him. Even Future Cop is somewhat less engaging when you don't know what the dispatcher is telling you via radio. He's good natured about it, but imagine how you'd feel if you had bought a REALLY great computer game, loaded it up and saw nothing but animated faces talking away and you're missing all the information? I'm against the trend to have spoken cues without text in games because it just means there are fewer games he can play. C
Message-ID: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:59:16 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:56:03 CDT If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it finally comes out, it needs: * LOW price * FULL Windows file/networking compatibility * Solutions to run UNIX X-Windowing apps immediately or convince UNIX engineering app vendors to port to Yellow Box as a solution to the now defunct/unsupported MAE heavily used in engineering areas on HP-UX. ***Reportedly Motorola is speeding up its Mac --> NT migration and it's getting Dell 450 Mhz PII's w/128 MB Ram, 6 GB hard drives, and Windows NT for $1250 a piece! Apple is just loosing out with the current OS, and it's timing is WAY LATE...Big businesses don't consider today's Mac OS a contender in stability, scaleability or cost. Businesses need a scaleable OS TODAY, and not just for PPCs, but for Intel PCs too! Apple should start marketing Yellow Box like it does QuickTime, in fact, make it one - QuickTime should install Yellow Box and be a YB app - then it'll be installed widely like QT. Then make YB open source or provide a mechanism to port it to HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, etc. -Eric Dubiel, Apple Shareholder
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:36:50 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1401991436510001@wil134.dol.net> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> In article <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu>, eviltofu@rocketmail.com (Jerome Chan) wrote: > In article <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > > >On 11 Jan 1999 05:12:15 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > >>>Why wouldn't it include WO when the 25tpm version > >>>is now free, and the only part of WO that isn't free and doesn't ship > >>>with the dev tools is WOB? > >> Where are you people pulling this FREE business from? > >> > >> WOF 4.0 costs $1500 to buy. Deployment is included for 25 > >>TPM. > > > >And what part of WO isn't included in YB? WOB and WOF? If the 25 tpm > >version of WOF is a free deployment now, that leaves only WOB. > > > >So that one little part is $1000? > > > >As much as I was very pleased with the DR2 version, I doubt that I'll > >stick around unless there is some solid reason to. If anything, I'll > >just pay the $1500 for WO and run it on NT. I'm perfectly happy selling > >NT boxes to my clients. > > My greatest fear is that they gut the BSD and POSIX layer from MacOS X in > order to differentiate between OS X and OS X Server. Actually, that's not that bad--if they actually have 3 levels: Mac OS X -- Consumer version for typical Mac users. Doesn't need BSD and POSIX. Mac OS X Server -- Server version with Web Objects, BSD, POSIX, and server applications. Mac OS X Workstation -- Same as Mac OS X Server but without server tools or Web Objects. To me, this would be pretty close to ideal. I agree, though, that if they can only have 2 versions, they should leave BSD in the consumer version. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:11:33 -0500 From: "mr_organic" <mr_organic@my-dejanews.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <369e786d.0@news1.ibm.net> Organization: IBM.NET I've posted before on this subject, but I'll recap my thinking here: Apple's days in Corporate America are over, except in small niches like Graphics/Content and publishing. The big market Apple is chasing is the home/home professional market, which has the potential to be huge. Steve Jobs knows that gaining ground on Windows NT is an uphill climb, and Mac OS X is still far off. Having said that, though, that doesn't mean that Apple is making a mistake. There is a big world out there, and not everyone has to play in the Fortune 500 market to be successful. Apple can do quite well selling machines to their traditional markets -- education, graphics, etc. -- and still grow market share by selling to the home users. This home market will be more sophisticated than ever as more homes get networked, and more Mac software will appear as more people buy Macs. IMO, I don't think Apple should waste time or resources trying to crack the corporate market. There are lots of new markets to make a name in. -- All knowledge is learning and therefore good. ---------- In article <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it > finally comes out, it needs: > > * LOW price > * FULL Windows file/networking compatibility > * Solutions to run UNIX X-Windowing apps immediately or convince UNIX > engineering app vendors to port to Yellow Box as a solution to the now > defunct/unsupported MAE heavily used in engineering areas on HP-UX. > > ***Reportedly Motorola is speeding up its Mac --> NT migration and it's > getting Dell 450 Mhz PII's w/128 MB Ram, 6 GB hard drives, and Windows > NT for $1250 a piece! > > Apple is just loosing out with the current OS, and it's timing is WAY > LATE...Big businesses don't consider today's Mac OS a contender in > stability, scaleability or cost. Businesses need a scaleable OS TODAY, > and not just for PPCs, but for Intel PCs too! > > Apple should start marketing Yellow Box like it does QuickTime, in fact, > make it one - QuickTime should install Yellow Box and be a YB app - then > it'll be installed widely like QT. Then make YB open source or provide > a mechanism to port it to HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, etc. > > -Eric Dubiel, > Apple Shareholder
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:13:13 +0100 From: Hugh.Fisher@cs.anu.edu.au (Hugh Fisher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Message-ID: <Hugh.Fisher-1501991013130001@tog.anu.edu.au> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> Organization: DCS, ANU In article <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>, christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote: > No double aargh. Temporary memory is exactly what the system uses to > allocate your applications memory in the first place. So it doesnt make > much difference whether you allocate 10 MB to your application, or you > allocate 2 MB to your application and then your application allocates > another 8 MB from temporary memory. Temporary memory is no help whatsover if you are calling a Toolbox routine that allocates memory - like opening a new window. Thinking about it, the real evil of the Mac memory manager is that partitions have become part of the user interface. Wierd APIs are acceptable if only programmers have to deal with them. But under MacOS every sysadmin/help desk person has at one time or another been asked "Why does <application> say it's out of memory when I've got ten megabytes unused in about this mac?" to which there is no good answer. Even a non-programmer can see how absurd this is. Yeah, you can fiddle with partition sizes, and like many (most?) sysadmins I jack the partition sizes on installed apps as high as possible to avoid problems. But even a non-programmer can also make the cross platform comparison "You don't have to do this under Windows" Something Carmack has hammered Apple on in the past is their lack of progress in fundamentals like memory management and multitasking. Back in the 80's Windows had even worse memory management: 32K global data limit, local and global handles, and the added joy of near and far pointers. BUT THEY GOT RID OF IT. For Win32 apps there's a flat paged virtual address space that grows or shrinks as needed. Simpler for everyone. Mac people like to say "Windows 98 = Mac 89". Unfortunately, in many respects it's still "Mac 98 = Mac 84" Hugh
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:20:24 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <369E7BB8.37855B0F@ericsson.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric A. Dubiel wrote: [cut] > ***Reportedly Motorola is speeding up its Mac --> NT migration and it's > getting Dell 450 Mhz PII's w/128 MB Ram, 6 GB hard drives, and Windows > NT for $1250 a piece! Of course they are. Any half-wit can get comparable hardware at that price, and any integrator can sell a machine at that price. It means lousy margins, but if you're trying to hook a big customer you probably have different priorities. Simply put, PCs are dirt-cheap and easy to build. Apple hardware is neither. Apple has failed to move away from its hardware business an inch; it will cost the company its existence. > Apple is just loosing out with the current OS, and it's timing is WAY > LATE...Big businesses don't consider today's Mac OS a contender in > stability, scaleability or cost. Businesses need a scaleable OS TODAY, > and not just for PPCs, but for Intel PCs too! Yep. Customer, solution...most businessmen would call that a "no-brainer". Given Apple's current leadership, ironically, that sounds about right. > Apple should start marketing Yellow Box like it does QuickTime, in fact, > make it one - QuickTime should install Yellow Box and be a YB app - then > it'll be installed widely like QT. Then make YB open source or provide > a mechanism to port it to HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, etc. > > -Eric Dubiel, > Apple Shareholder Sell your shares. Quickly. The bottom is about to fall out. MJP
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 14 Jan 1999 15:54:41 PST Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Message-ID: <tbrown-1401991921010001@da211.ecr.net> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <joe.ragosta-1401991436510001@wil134.dol.net> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:21:00 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:21:45 CDT In article <joe.ragosta-1401991436510001@wil134.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >Actually, that's not that bad--if they actually have 3 levels: > >Mac OS X -- Consumer version for typical Mac users. Doesn't need BSD and POSIX. > >Mac OS X Server -- Server version with Web Objects, BSD, POSIX, and server >applications. > >Mac OS X Workstation -- Same as Mac OS X Server but without server tools >or Web Objects. > >To me, this would be pretty close to ideal. I agree, though, that if they >can only have 2 versions, they should leave BSD in the consumer version. I'm going to take the popular option of 'give stuff away for free'. Apple should include & install the BSD tools on every copy of OS X. Any mac advocate who argues against including a 'command line' should have a few desperate minutes to sway the jury before being taken outside and shot. Any mention of 'polluting the interface', etc, would be grounds to speed the process along. There's simply no good reason to leave it off, and plent include it. I'm hoping that Apple spawns off WebObjects into it's own box. Then creates a Sever Pack that installs over OS X. No artificial distinction of "workstation" or "server". These labels have lost almost all meaning. The use of a box now determines if it's a server or a workstation, with modern machines being both at the same time. The Server pack should be much less expensive than Apple's (and other's) offerings in the past. Mainly to gain marketshare vs. MS, but also because of the BSD layer. Any machine w/ BSD can install netatalk, Samba, & apache. The Apple tools should be better, but they will compete against the Open Source offerings. Considering that more homes will have multiple machines needing to be networked, more common users will want a server pack, to better network their machines. If this is affordable ($100-$200), then they might buy it rather than going off for the free versions on the net. Right now, if someone needs a cheap server, they think Linux. If the Server pack is cheap enough, then it could become: Buy a Mac. It'll save on their setup costs. Apple has to be radical to gain attention away from MS. Apple just has to sell enough copies to justify it's work on the server tools. Since most of the NeXT tools cost will be susumed in OS X & WebObject sales, Apple might be able to justify costs into the $0-$100 range. I say $0, because if the tools are bundled into every copy of OS X, they would sell more copies of OS X, and thus justify the cost of server development. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Beyond YellowBox, Carbon, eQD... Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:26:49 GMT Message-ID: <369e851c.17861783@news.demon.co.uk> References: <kcin2.8843$XY6.201470@news.san.rr.com> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:48:28 -0800, "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: >Object Technology Licensing Corp. (housed at 1 Infinity Loop) seems to hold >the Taligent technology patents (perhaps among others). See their updated >web site at http://www.otlc.com/ > >Which, if any, of these technologies do you think would be valuable >additions to (or maybe replacements for) the OpenStep-based Yellow Box >technologies or the Carbon technologies? Pretty moot point atm really, unless one is willing to commit to Apple PPC hardware, in view of the below. However, much if not most or even all of Taligent is still well ahead of anything actually implemented anywhere at present, so they certainly could represent valuable additions to/replacements for Openstep-based YB as well as Carbon technologies.(Hell, *any* current OS could hugely benefit from integrating Taligent technologies!) But it's still a very moot point even then because Apple would never make it happen anyway. :( >I thought I'd ask so I can ready about something other than people >complaining (perhaps rightly so) that YB is dead and are (like me) >disappointed Mac OS X Intel appears dead. Very disappointing indeed. And it's going to be a very frosty day in hell before I'd commit myself to Apple hardware whilst it remains a closed architecture, single-vendor platform, given Apple's track record... Ric
From: "Kristopher Magnusson" <kmagnusson@novell.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:34:35 -0700 Message-ID: <369e8d22.0@news.provo.novell.com> David Griffiths wrote in message <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com>... >Michael Giddings wrote: > >> A last note: >> If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in support >> of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. > >What do people perceive as the point of Gnustep? Is it to reproduce the >look and feel and ease of use of NextStep, or is it to reproduce the >development environment? To create a free implementation of the OpenStep APIs. All else are applications that consume GNUstep. ................... kris
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:16:11 -0500 From: "Steve Seidel" <seidel@enter.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> Organization: Enter.Net ---------- In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT I have nothing against Intergraph, but what does big business have to do with the graphics market? NT has made inroads on this market mostly because of NT has a better server offering than Apple. With Mac OS X server coupled with Mac OS X, this is likely to swing the other way. NT has it's advantages, but so does Mac OS. NT's advantages are mostly with servers, etc. Further, some customers are requiring the buzzwords (PMT, protected memory, etc.) Whereas the Macs advantages are with graphics (i.e. system level color sync, etc.) Once MacOS X comes out, NT looses whatever advantage it once had. If anything, I think Apple has more to worry about Silicon Graphics entering into the NT market. Even if the NT boxes aren't better, SGI carries a lot of credibility with them in the graphics market. Then again, Linux is taking away NT marketshare big time! Who knows what the future holds. Steve
From: stevewhite@spammers.are.scum.com (Steve White) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <stevewhite-1401992025350001@d156-48.ce.mediaone.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <369E7BB8.37855B0F@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:25:35 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:22:00 CDT Organization: MediaOne Express -=- Central Region In article <369E7BB8.37855B0F@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Apple has failed to move away from its hardware business an > inch; it will cost the company its existence. Sure, you must be right, we've seen plenty of evidence for that lately, like in those just-released earnings reports ... ... well, no, actually we didn't. Keep right on posting. steve Reply to: stevewhite at ce dot mediaone dot net
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: 15 Jan 1999 02:44:30 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77ma2e$usm$4@blue.hex.net> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <F590Jx.90t@T-FCN.Net> <775kl7$4pc$1@coward.cc.utah.edu> <SCOTT.99Jan9001415@slave.doubleu.com> <77h033$bg6$14@blue.hex.net> <QITm2.3933$xq4.985@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77jpbg$o4e$2@blue.hex.net> <tgfn2.4305$xq4.1113@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 02:44:30 GMT On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:28:57 GMT, Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: >In <77jpbg$o4e$2@blue.hex.net> Christopher Browne wrote:- >> And, um, Mastodon. Although I think it's using libc4, because even lib5 >> changes far too much to be considered stable, according to its author. > >Mastodon? You're making that up aren't you? I'm not seriously proposing it for any particular purpose, but take a look at <http://www.pell.chi.il.us/~orc/Glubnautz/>. David Parsons aka "orc" is a fairly prolific poster on Linux newsgroups, and regularly brings up his "Mastodon" distribution when flaming at glibc for being "so in flux." I may be joking about it, but I'm not making it up... -- "Not me, guy. I read the Bash man page each day like a Jehovah's Witness reads the Bible. No wait, the Bash man page IS the bible. Excuse me..." (More on confusing aliases, taken from comp.os.linux.misc) cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 02:43:27 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net> In article <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote: > > Where was the -6 being displayed? > > Console. Nothing else got anything at all, including gdb. Hmm...oh, well. I suppose one point to be gotten from this is that you're right: syslog does not do much for developers in terms of replacing a debugger for tracking down errors like that. Even debuggers may not be of much use for delayed problems like a memory smash. But syslog can be useful to developers for tracking the execution of program logic-- business rules, transactions being processed, events being seen, whatever applies to the type of program in question-- to a easily-configurable level of detail. Depending on the circumstances, it may be very difficult to have the debugger watch the right things in order to catch where the program does something wrong but not fatal. Especially within complicated, dynamic data structures...call 'em networks of objects, if you like. :-) And, of course, syslog is useful to the admin or end-user, not just the developer. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: c@c.com (Chris Black) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:22:32 -0700 References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> Organization: Tridim Message-ID: <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> In article <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... > > > ---------- > In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > > > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are > > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: > > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that > > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. > > > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. > > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT > > I have nothing against Intergraph, but what does big business have to do > with the graphics market? NT has made inroads on this market mostly because > of NT has a better server offering than Apple. With Mac OS X server coupled > with Mac OS X, this is likely to swing the other way. NT has it's > advantages, but so does Mac OS. NT's advantages are mostly with servers, > etc. Further, some customers are requiring the buzzwords (PMT, protected > memory, etc.) Whereas the Macs advantages are with graphics (i.e. system > level color sync, etc.) Once MacOS X comes out, NT looses whatever > advantage it once had. Could you please expand on the "etc." part in your statement about Mac graphic superiority. Exactly what are the Mac's advantages at graphics over a PC? While you're at it, please tell me exactly how the currently vaporous MacOS X (or even the shipping one that's still about a year off) will negate NT's advantage. Chris.
From: znu@NOSPAMearthlink.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:44:10 -0500 References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> In article <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it > finally comes out, it needs: > > * LOW price > * FULL Windows file/networking compatibility > * Solutions to run UNIX X-Windowing apps immediately or convince UNIX > engineering app vendors to port to Yellow Box as a solution to the now > defunct/unsupported MAE heavily used in engineering areas on HP-UX. > > ***Reportedly Motorola is speeding up its Mac --> NT migration and it's > getting Dell 450 Mhz PII's w/128 MB Ram, 6 GB hard drives, and Windows > NT for $1250 a piece! > > Apple is just loosing out with the current OS, and it's timing is WAY > LATE...Big businesses don't consider today's Mac OS a contender in > stability, scaleability or cost. Businesses need a scaleable OS TODAY, > and not just for PPCs, but for Intel PCs too! > > Apple should start marketing Yellow Box like it does QuickTime, in fact, > make it one - QuickTime should install Yellow Box and be a YB app - then > it'll be installed widely like QT. Then make YB open source or provide > a mechanism to port it to HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, etc. Apple has not yet gone after the business market. Since the New Apple began, they have gone after the "pro" and "consumer" markets. I don't know that they will go after the business market, but I bet that some interesting things would happen if Apple added a business column to that product grid that Jobs likes to show all the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- People tell me one thing one day and out the other --znu znu <at> earthlink <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: znu@NOSPAMearthlink.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:46:10 -0500 References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <369e786d.0@news1.ibm.net> Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1401992246100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> In article <369e786d.0@news1.ibm.net>, "mr_organic" <mr_organic@my-dejanews.com> wrote: > I've posted before on this subject, but I'll recap my thinking here: Apple's > days in Corporate America are over, except in small niches like > Graphics/Content and publishing. The big market Apple is chasing is the > home/home professional market, which has the potential to be huge. Steve > Jobs knows that gaining ground on Windows NT is an uphill climb, and Mac OS > X is still far off. > > Having said that, though, that doesn't mean that Apple is making a mistake. > There is a big world out there, and not everyone has to play in the Fortune > 500 market to be successful. Apple can do quite well selling machines to > their traditional markets -- education, graphics, etc. -- and still grow > market share by selling to the home users. This home market will be more > sophisticated than ever as more homes get networked, and more Mac software > will appear as more people buy Macs. > > IMO, I don't think Apple should waste time or resources trying to crack the > corporate market. There are lots of new markets to make a name in. And the small business market is also ideal for Macs. (Much lower support costs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- People tell me one thing one day and out the other --znu znu <at> earthlink <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:07:08 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> In article <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it > finally comes out, it needs: > > * LOW price Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many MIS types haven't figured that out. > * FULL Windows file/networking compatibility Why? If you have a Unix or NT server with TCP/IP, the Mac gets along just fine. Why mess with Windows crap? -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:09:14 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1401991909140001@elk87.dol.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <369E7BB8.37855B0F@ericsson.com> In article <369E7BB8.37855B0F@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Eric A. Dubiel wrote: > > [cut] > > > ***Reportedly Motorola is speeding up its Mac --> NT migration and it's > > getting Dell 450 Mhz PII's w/128 MB Ram, 6 GB hard drives, and Windows > > NT for $1250 a piece! > > Of course they are. Any half-wit can get comparable hardware at that > price, and any integrator can sell a machine at that price. It means > lousy margins, but if you're trying to hook a big customer you probably > have different priorities. Simply put, PCs are dirt-cheap and easy to > build. Apple hardware is neither. Apple has failed to move away from its > hardware business an inch; it will cost the company its existence. You're still on that tune? Apple is in better condition now than it has been for years. Its existence isn't in any danger. > > > Apple is just loosing out with the current OS, and it's timing is WAY > > LATE...Big businesses don't consider today's Mac OS a contender in > > stability, scaleability or cost. Businesses need a scaleable OS TODAY, > > and not just for PPCs, but for Intel PCs too! > > Yep. Customer, solution...most businessmen would call that a > "no-brainer". Given Apple's current leadership, ironically, that sounds > about right. Hmmm. So Apple is completely wrong on this yet MS who is doing the same thing is right? Why is it such a wrong strategy when the two largest OS vendors aren't doing things your way? > > > Apple should start marketing Yellow Box like it does QuickTime, in fact, > > make it one - QuickTime should install Yellow Box and be a YB app - then > > it'll be installed widely like QT. Then make YB open source or provide > > a mechanism to port it to HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, etc. > > > > -Eric Dubiel, > > Apple Shareholder > > Sell your shares. Quickly. The bottom is about to fall out. Uh huh. Weren't you saying the same thing a year ago when the shares were at 16? -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
From: "Earl Malmrose" <malmrose@nospam.jetcity.com> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <Rgfn2.250$KE3.2451@news14.ispnews.com> <77k7b9$tm$4@208.236.238.187> <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com> <77lqdb$q69$1@decius.ultra.net> <jwct-1401991749060001@port-2-206.magma.ca> Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <Dpwn2.193$lG4.1972@news6.ispnews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:59:15 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:54:47 -0800 J.W. Corey Tamas wrote in message ... > >I'm against the trend to have spoken cues without text in games because it >just means there are fewer games he can play. Good point. Subtitles are important too. Many Sierra titles have subtitling in the game. That way everyone is happy. Too bad Half-Life doesn't.
From: znu@NOSPAMearthlink.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:11:32 -0500 References: <775njf$l61$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369A297B.9726B397@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> <77dr7v$be7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990111201733161570@ts2-01.aug.com> <77eiuq$o89$1@news.digifix.com> <stevehix-1201991553040001@192.168.1.10> <B2C143AD-28DF8@206.165.43.33> <1dlkrce.4fyixapgr88wN@roxboro0-014.dyn.interpath.net> Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1401992311320001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> In article <1dlkrce.4fyixapgr88wN@roxboro0-014.dyn.interpath.net>, phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote: > Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote: > > > For another, there are a LOT of Mac and OpenStep developers that are STILL > > weirded out by Apple's decisions about APIs. > > > > Carbon only makes sense for Adobe, MS and other cross-platform behemoths. > > Given the first statement, the second is patently false -- Carbon makes > sense for all current Mac developers as it gives them a chance to make > some small changes and have their program get the benefits of a improved > OS (and even those changes can be delayed until after the OS is out, and > then a patch or update could be released). > > It's not visionary, it's not on the cutting edge, it may not produce the > best product -- but the safest thing for Mac developers to do (other > than to chuck it and start developing for windows) is to simply ignore > everything except MacOS. Developing for a "might have been" API/OS > isn't good for the bottom line. > > A mere 3 weeks ago I was saying "So why should they switch from one > framework to another when they don't have any confidence that it will be > around in a year?", although the current fuss doesn't convince me that > YB is dead or going away -- it certainly doesn't do anything to convince > me that it won't. I think Apple is playing down yellow box because of the bad reaction it got from the big developers who didn't want to rewrite all their software. Once OS X has a large installed base and all the major old apps are ported over I think Apple we begin to promote YB as the best way to write new apps. There is *tons* on YB over at Apple's developer web site, so I think Apple is still very commited to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- People tell me one thing one day and out the other --znu znu <at> earthlink <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,aol.neighborhood.ont.niagara-falls.jobs Subject: Make Big Money With $6 --== It's Real And Legal ==-- From: dripper1@zdnetmail.com Message-ID: <ZdAn2.1428$a4.527@weber.videotron.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:19:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:19:53 EDT This article was posted using an unregistered copy of Newsgroup AutoPoster 95! --- I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought,"Yeah right, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: "what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right?" Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!?... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, WHY it works... Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy!: Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! GET TONS OF EASY CASH THIS REALLY CAN MAKE YOU EASY MONEY!! IT WORKS!!! BUT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW IT CAREFULLY. STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent thievery. Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service by this. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) Lloyd G. 1890 Fairway Lane Sheridan, Wy 82801 Vienna, VA 22180 #2) CJ Kuiter Herenweg 168 3648 CN Wilnis Holland #3) Helena Martinez 7308 California Blvd. NE Calgary, Alberta Canada T1Y 6X5 #4) Sylvie Denancy Vooruitgangstraat 93 bus 5 8310 Assebroek Brugge Belgium #5) Gregory Dur Korenbloemdreef 16 8300 Knokke - Heist Belgium #6) Serge Houle 1-80 Blvd Fortin Granby, Québec Canada J2G-4A1 STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. If you do not live in the us or there is a foreign address you must put a international stamp on your envelopes. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! GOOD LUCK !!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 00:17:27 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:16:38 -0600 Chris Black <c@c.com> wrote: > In article <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... > > > > > > ---------- > > In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > > > > > > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are > > > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: > > > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that > > > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. > > > > > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. > > > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT > > > > I have nothing against Intergraph, but what does big business have to do > > with the graphics market? NT has made inroads on this market mostly because > > of NT has a better server offering than Apple. With Mac OS X server coupled > > with Mac OS X, this is likely to swing the other way. NT has it's > > advantages, but so does Mac OS. NT's advantages are mostly with servers, > > etc. Further, some customers are requiring the buzzwords (PMT, protected > > memory, etc.) Whereas the Macs advantages are with graphics (i.e. system > > level color sync, etc.) Once MacOS X comes out, NT looses whatever > > advantage it once had. > > Could you please expand on the "etc." part in your statement about Mac > graphic superiority. Exactly what are the Mac's advantages at graphics > over a PC? While you're at it, please tell me exactly how the > currently vaporous MacOS X (or even the shipping one that's still about a > year off) will negate NT's advantage. > > Chris. If you want to ask what advantages the Mac has over a PC, don't include Intergraph. Intergraph is a workstation, not a PC. Sure, it runs NT, and it uses an Intel processor. But none of the rest of its architecture is "PC." The Intergraph graphics advantage comes from its proprietary, expensive graphics hardware, not from NT or its Intel processor. Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been created. -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:39:40 PST Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1401992139400001@ts022d38.lap-ca.concentric.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <369e786d.0@news1.ibm.net> In article <369e786d.0@news1.ibm.net>, "mr_organic" <mr_organic@my-dejanews.com> wrote: > I've posted before on this subject, but I'll recap my thinking here: Apple's > days in Corporate America are over, except in small niches like > Graphics/Content and publishing. The big market Apple is chasing is the > home/home professional market, which has the potential to be huge. Steve > Jobs knows that gaining ground on Windows NT is an uphill climb, and Mac OS > X is still far off. I will not say whether or not their days are over, but they have unfortunately GIVEN UP this market. Big companies WOULD NOT BUY MAC HARDWARE. Many big companies would gladly pay $1000 for macos x server, but no way would they ditch their pc's, macos x server would have to run on pc's. Thus Apple has no chance at this market, no matter how good mac os x server is. They have given up on this market since they have given up on macos x server for intel
From: "Hiawatha Bray" <watha@monitortan.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:52:11 PST Organization: Concentric Internet Services Message-ID: <77ml2b$n7e@chronicle.concentric.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1501991013130001@tog.anu.edu.au> Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I have had to increase my memory allotment for the new Internet Explorer 4.5 for the Mac, just to keep it running. When I open multiple browser windows, I start getting out-of-memory messages. Today I got one while trying to run a Sherlock search and browse at the same time. And my iMac now has 128 megabytes of RAM. 128 megabytes! And it runs out of memory! This is insane! It's utterly infuriating, and exactly why I get so tired of the raving from Apple buffs about the overwhelming superiority of the Mac. Since Windows 95 came along, I've almost forgotten what a PC out-of-memory error looks like. The bloody thing just runs. You never have to adjust your virtual memory (though you can do so to optimize the speed of the computer, if you wish) and you certainly don't have to tell the computer how much memory to assign to a program, simply an outrageously primitive feature that should have Mac users rising up in rebellion. I do like my iMac; it's a nice little computer. But anybody who thinks it's vastly superior to a good PC needs to get out more. Hiawatha Bray Boston Globe
Newsgroups: aol.neighborhood.ont.niagara-falls.jobs,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov Message-ID: <cancel.ZdAn2.1428$a4.527@weber.videotron.net> Control: cancel <ZdAn2.1428$a4.527@weber.videotron.net> Subject: cmsg cancel <ZdAn2.1428$a4.527@weber.videotron.net> Organization: http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:20:00 GMT Sender: dripper1@zdnetmail.com Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
From: FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:12:27 -0700 Organization: Univ of Colorado, Boulder Message-ID: <FILTER-1401992312280001@tele-anx0517.colorado.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1501991013130001@tog.anu.edu.au> <77ml2b$n7e@chronicle.concentric.net> Hiawatha Bray wrote: >I have had to increase my memory allotment for the new Internet Explorer 4.5 >for the Mac, just to keep it running. When I open multiple browser windows, >I start getting out-of-memory messages. Today I got one while trying to run >a Sherlock search and browse at the same time. And my iMac now has 128 >megabytes of RAM. 128 megabytes! And it runs out of memory! This is >insane! Just a quick note: It is true that the memory space needs to be dynamically addressed, but the reason that your out-of-memory error came up was not because your RAM was filled up. It's probably because of the fact that the default memory settings on Sherlock are set unrealistically low and need to be upped by hand (I tripled it). Your 128M RAM is more than plenty enough to do what you're doing. The error had to do with the RAM allocation to that program. I only have 64M RAM and run easily ten or more programs without running into any problems, but it's because I've set all the memory allocations on my programs correctly. Unfortunately, this is not something that people should have to do, and most users don't know how to do it anyway. They need to roll out osx as soon as possible. I'd almost say, forgo all efforts on 8.6 and 8.7 or whatever, and get a move on osx. People can live with 8.5 until then. This is a *major* short-coming of the mac, but this is a dead issue within the year (though it should have been a dead issue for everyone a decade ago, if not sooner). -jeff
From: alan@osci.me.ttu.edu (Alan A. Barhorst) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Release OS 4.2 to the GPL Date: 15 Jan 1999 05:58:29 GMT Organization: Texas Tech Academic Computing Services Message-ID: <77mle5$rah@ttacs7.ttu.edu> Keywords: OS 4.2, GPL Dear Apple Leaders, It appears that Apple has decided to really focus on its core markets and it should. I congratulate you all and your team for turning Apple around. I am disappointed but I do understand that I am not in your core market. I am writing to ask that Apple release (to the Gnu public license or similar) the source code for Openstep 4.2 and any Nextstep leftovers that are needed to make Openstep on Mach run. I am also asking that you also consider making public in due time the API details of MacOSX so that the public Openstep API can be kept up to date. Also the API for Netinfo (if it is not already available). I ask this for several reasons. The first reason is the fact that the NeXTStep user experience is the finest available. The developer environment is very very good. The fact that NeXTStep/OS ran seamlessly on so many cpu types is another reason. The fact that throwing away: the creative genius of NeXT's original team, the work of so many NeXT engineers and other employees, and the work of so many third party (free and otherwise) developers is wasteful; if it was pollution it would be taxed based on carbon dumping like the old coal plants along the Ohio river. Think different about it. Take a look at the Peak archive or the Peanuts archive. There is so much viable and useful code out there that needs a little updating; throwing it away is a crime of the intellect. The fact that the Web was started with this elegant artwork (and engineering masterpiece) is lost to the World, because the leadership at Apple has focused, but has lost touch with the utility and paternity of its previous incarnation. Apple will not loose its core by shedding its old skin; a tool to be used for great purpose by the legions of curious developers. When folks give goods to the Goodwill, or directly to the those in need, we do not give them useless junk we give them slightly outdated (or new) but useful goods. The Openstep source is slightly outdated but still very useful, it should still be used and improved like Edison's incandescent light bulb, or the donated bike that is now the wheels of a bright eyed youngster or an eager struggling foreign college student. Consider the fact that the engineering community rarely uses Apple products, however there are a few percent that do and there are many mathematicians and other academics that do. However, code such as Matlab and other CAD/CAE software will never be ported (or updated) to Apple hardware for the reason that Apple is not in this market. This will force this other market further and further from Apple hardware even though it is more than capable for the task. But the market is huge. If you all release viable source to the GPL then this other market could be brought closer to Apple with very little effort from Apple. You all are focused like a laser. Let a little light split off. It will take a different path that can be directed back to the source and recombine with the original and really shine. Since there seems to be ways to maintain communication between the split light beams in physics, there is surely a way for communication to exist between the two Openstep streams; so that the phase difference at recombination will be zero and we will get a bright result. Think of the goodwill that will be generated for the legions of NeXT supporters when you all announce the release. There has been a lot of cash spent on NeXT technology or in support of NeXT technology since its inception and into the present. It is the least Apple could do to thank these people for keeping NeXT chief and crew in the computer business. Keeping them available to turn a miserably flagging Apple around. The passion that Apple originals have for Apple is the same as the passion the NeXT originals maintain. Do not crap on these genuine folks. The NeXT adopters put a lot on the line supporting the last way to think different. Releasing the source for OS 4.2 is the least that Apple could do to say thanks. Releasing the source could be used to gain mind-share among the World's programmers. CNET, AP, ABC, .... Today Apple releases the source code for the environment that The World Wide Web was developed on. Tim Berners-Lee (sp?) says ".....I used NeXTStep/Openstep because....." Apple released the technology to allow the world to see what is behind the new Apple MacOSX. .... and so on. The interest will be as big as it is with Java. What mileage has Sun gotten from making Java as it is. However, Sun has to put a bunch of cash into the effort. Openstep is complete enough that Apple could turn it over; the communication between the streams should cost very little. I understand that there are equivalent Gnu utilities to replace all the licensed utilities; Display Ghostscript needs to be finished. It is possible you all could support a "Red Hat" style corporation to maintain the open source records. This way you all could help place the prisms that will bring the two source streams back together. Release Openstep 4.2 to the GPL. It is in the best interest of all concerned. Apple will maintain its focus, and the NeXT will not be so shat upon. Most of all the ideas that formed the NeXT idea will be improved and will run on all the various cpu and computer architectures (past, present, and future) at little to no cost to Apple. This in itself makes releasing the source a worthy endeavor. NeXTStep was not a lab demo. It worked masterfully and should be shown to all that will look. A lot of good ideas die on the vine, but this one was viable fruit; let the GPL take it to wine, do not let it wither. Apple has harvested what it wanted, give the rest to somebody else to use to its fullness. There is no need to let it become useless carbon chains. Gabriel Androczky has provided a nice picture that sums up the feeling, but by no means the mentality or intellect of the NeXTway adopters. It is probably not a good idea to have this (i.e. NeXT adopters) crew against you. http://www.accentcomm.com/previews/devandyb2.jpg --- AB _______________________________________________________________ Alan A. Barhorst, PhD, PE | alan@osci.me.ttu.edu Associate Professor | http://www.osci.ttu.edu/ Mechanical Engineering | Texas Tech University | NeXT, MIME, Sun, & ASCII mail When leaders disregard the law and human dignity, kooks are emboldened; innocence lost. Human potential cannot be developed or measured from a floating moral reference frame. _______________________________________________________________
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Beyond YellowBox, Carbon, eQD... Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1401992250290001@term6-48.vta.west.net> References: <kcin2.8843$XY6.201470@news.san.rr.com> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:50:29 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:50:31 PDT In article <kcin2.8843$XY6.201470@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: >Object Technology Licensing Corp. (housed at 1 Infinity Loop) [boggles] Er... that's Apple's place (as I'm sure you all know). So, is OBLC just some front for Apple? Or owned by someone at Apple? It would make sense that Apple olds the Taligent tech patents, anyhow. -- -Forrest Cameranesi Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
From: znu@NOSPAMearthlink.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 02:08:20 -0500 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1501991013130001@tog.anu.edu.au> <77ml2b$n7e@chronicle.concentric.net> Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1501990208200001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> In article <77ml2b$n7e@chronicle.concentric.net>, "Hiawatha Bray" <watha@monitortan.com> wrote: > Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! > > I have had to increase my memory allotment for the new Internet Explorer 4.5 > for the Mac, just to keep it running. When I open multiple browser windows, > I start getting out-of-memory messages. Today I got one while trying to run > a Sherlock search and browse at the same time. And my iMac now has 128 > megabytes of RAM. 128 megabytes! And it runs out of memory! This is > insane! This is partialy because MS sets the default RAM partition way too low on IE so they can claim it uses half the RAM of Netscape. But an OS with modern memory management would indeed fix this... > It's utterly infuriating, and exactly why I get so tired of the raving from > Apple buffs about the overwhelming superiority of the Mac. Since Windows 95 > came along, I've almost forgotten what a PC out-of-memory error looks like. > The bloody thing just runs. You never have to adjust your virtual memory > (though you can do so to optimize the speed of the computer, if you wish) > and you certainly don't have to tell the computer how much memory to assign > to a program, simply an outrageously primitive feature that should have Mac > users rising up in rebellion. > > I do like my iMac; it's a nice little computer. But anybody who thinks it's > vastly superior to a good PC needs to get out more. > > Hiawatha Bray > Boston Globe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- People tell me one thing one day and out the other --znu znu <at> earthlink <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:45 GMT Message-ID: <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote: >On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT, Anthony Ord ><nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use >>Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? > >Install Leafnode, and use whatever newsreader you like as an "offline" >reader for your "offline" spool. > >Or install slrnpull, which is oriented towards slrn. > >There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a >news browser, and vice versa. Alas, my transport details appear obtrusively on my phone bill every quarter. >That's called Careful Design. Unless the user (me) wants it there - and I do. In that case it is the Wrong Design. Regards Anthony -- =============================================================== |'All kids love log!' | | Ren & Stimpy | ===============================================================
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "MacOSX Server Client" proposal Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan14084000@slave.doubleu.com> References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net> <776gf9$27i$1@crib.corepower.com> <77jln5$8b@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> In-reply-to: Jonathan Hendry's message of 14 Jan 1999 02:44:53 GMT Date: 14 Jan 99 08:40:00 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:59:49 PDT In article <77jln5$8b@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> writes: Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: > In article <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net>, > cleric@yale.graduate.net wrote: > > Apple has been strongly encouraging developers to write Yellow > > Box apps, > > It has? Through reverse psychology, perhaps. So, we should be seeing a _lot_ of new YellowBox apps in about a six month timeframe? :-). -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan14090759@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-reply-to: croehrig@my-dejanews.com's message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:42:39 GMT Date: 14 Jan 99 09:07:59 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:59:49 PDT In article <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, croehrig@my-dejanews.com writes: In article <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote: > when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence > exists. Mmalc has an excellent reputation, whereas you, Madam or > Sir, did not even bother to give your name. > > Malcolm's interpretation makes a lot of sense, and I sure am glad > to hear a voice of reason within all that FUD. I second that. It's unfortunate that such fine folks as Greg and Scott are becoming the casualties and it's completely understandable that they are bitter and disillusioned. I also suspect that being bitter and disillusioned has some impact on their ability to be positive about the future of this technology, and that their perspectives might be somewhat biased. Of course, Mmalcolm's perspective is _also_ somewhat biased. Even if things fall somewhere in between where I suspect they are and where Mmalcolm suspects they area, it's still not good. OTOH, I strongly suspect that things either fall in the far-better or far-worse grouping, because this _is_ Apple. The fact is that the number of existing OPENSTEP developers are insignificant compared to the number of MacOS and Windows developers that are currently completely oblivious to the Yellow Box. Those crowds have to be wooed very carefully. Jobs & co. seem to be realizing they've got one chance at this and it better be right. Releasing YB now and touting a "revolution" is not going to work. First off, I'm not asking for them to gather us ex-NeXT developers, put us on stage at WWDC, and say to the great MacOS masses "This is the future." That would be _damned_ scary. Secondly, doesn't this apply equally well to WebObjects? Apple seems to be having few problems selling and promoting WebObjects without cannibalizing their hardware sales or MacOS development. Hell, I'd even be willing to call our app a WebObjects deployment if that got the job done (even though we have _zero_ WOF or EOF code in it). Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 14 Jan 99 08:55:23 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:13:34 GMT In article <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes: And come on people, how is any of this different that the situation two years ago? Then it was uncertain that the company wouldn't go out of business and take the OS with it. In addition it was pretty clear they were not going forward with the OS. The difference is now that only the later is a possibility, one most of us dismiss as moronic. One of the things I've come to realize over the past week is that the milestone I passed on Wed the 6th was more subtle than I realized. The risks from staying with YellowBox began to overwhelm the development advantages YellowBox gives me. In fact, it's possible that the risks from staying with YellowBox had _already_ offset the development advantages, and the info given out at the BOF was simply the nail in the coffin. For me, the main difference between now and before Apple bought NeXT is that if NeXT went out of business pushing a solution that I found so obviously workable, that was a condemnation of the state of the market. Apple apparently de-prioritizing a solution I find so obviously workable is a condemndation of the state of Apple. I _expect_ the market to be fairly capricious, I had _hoped_ Apple would not be so. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 14 Jan 99 09:15:09 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan14091509@slave.doubleu.com> References: <369c879d.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <B2C236AA-7799E@206.165.43.222> <369CF2EF.67794B96@tone.ca> In-reply-to: Michael's message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:24:32 -0500 In article <369CF2EF.67794B96@tone.ca>, Michael <michael@tone.ca> writes: I've really got to agree with Lawson. Give up on Obj-c, nobody else uses it. So its better than Java, so what, everybody is moving to Java, programmers will be a dime a dozen, and Java will evolve to meet the challenge. You don't sink you money and efforts into solutions no one else is using. This is the implication we were fed at the BOF. They pointed out how many Java books there are on the shelves at bookstores, versus Objective-C. But these dime-a-dozen Java programmers are going to be dime-a-dozen Java programmers who know AWT, Swing/JFC, or WFC. And none of those Java books address YellowBox. The only thing I could imagine would be for Apple to come out with a native-Java YellowBox. I don't mean a Java binding on top of the current YellowBox - I mean a native Java YellowBox as JFC is native Java. So you can run Java YellowBox apps on any platform with Java on it. Let's put it another way - has the availability of quality C++ tools on MacOS 8.x greatly improved MacOS's ability to attract outside developers? Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan14091921@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-reply-to: malcolm@plsys.co.uk's message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:24:25 GMT Date: 14 Jan 99 09:19:21 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:59:50 PDT In article <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes: We saw what happened to the Newton. If Jobs wanted to scrap YB there wouldn't be engineers working on it now. All public information in the Newton affair consistently indicated that Newton's death was a surprise to pretty much everyone at Newton _and_ at Apple. The ex-NeXT engineers at Apple have been my unofficial canaries for the past couple years. I figured that if a substantial portion of them left, that would be a strong negative signal. The fact that they _haven't_ left is only a soft positive signal, at best. If they were leaving, it's because they Know Something, whereas if they are staying, it could be because they Don't Know Something. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 14 Jan 99 09:25:14 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan14092514@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77ib03$nt9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77igf6$t26$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77j112$cr6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-reply-to: spagiola@my-dejanews.com's message of Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:51:51 GMT In article <77j112$cr6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes: Certainly very few people are going to buy OS X Server at $1000 except to use it as a server, and certainly as long as that's the case, very few YB apps will be sold. But if Apple offered a version of OSXS without the server-specific aspects, like WebObjects, and sold it at a price competitive with WNT _workstation_ then more people would buy it, and they would also need apps. I'm one such potential customer. Why is that so difficult to understand? There's nothing in OSX Server that forces it to be used only for server functions, except its price. I'm going to go contrary to the flow on this one. I think that lowering the price on MacOS X Server to attract a broader crowd would be a mistake. It's the first release on an entirely new operating system. People who have no problems paying $1k for such a thing will also expect it to _work_, and will also tend to be the type of person who makes good bug reports, and for whom source compatibility with future versions is entirely sufficient. I don't think that it would be a good idea from Apple's perspective to make MacOS X Server too mainstream at this time. After MacOS X comes out, then, yes, drop the MacOS X Server price to $500 or so. Implicit in my thoughts above is that MacOS X Server isn't a good deployment platform for shrinkwrap type apps, because it's still rough around the edges. That's what YellowBox/NT is for. IMHO, Apple's best strategy would be to release a bundle of MacOS X Server/Intel and YellowBox/NT deployment to keep the NeXT-ish side of things happy, and continue with Carbon to keep the MacOS-ish side of things happy. Hopefully, by the time MacOS X ships, they'll have nice app availability on _both_ sides of the aisle. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Message-ID: <369F0412.B21E06FC@cable.a2000.nl> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:02:10 +0100 From: Pascal Haakmat <ahaakmat@cable.a2000.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1501991013130001@tog.anu.edu.au> <77ml2b$n7e@chronicle.concentric.net> <znu-1501990208200001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit znu wrote: > This is partialy because MS sets the default RAM partition way too low on > IE so they can claim it uses half the RAM of Netscape. But an OS with > modern memory management would indeed fix this... *modern* memory management? <cough> Pascal.
From: tom__98@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:09:15 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77nb55$1nd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77ekqg$1ra$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <77ekqg$1ra$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > 2) Java is inferior to Objective-C in most respects and Apple could easily fix > the few lingering problems with Objective-C > > 3) AWT is a lowest common denominator API. It looks like you haven't looked at Java recently. While Objective-C has some nice features, Java is the better language for applications programming by now. Why? Among other things because Java offers over Objective-C (among many other features): -- guaranteed runtime safety and fault isolation -- well-defined, implementation independent dynamic loading -- well-defined, implementation independent reflection -- better support for static typing and modules Before JDK 1.2, the Objective-C APIs under NextStep/OpenStep were still a bit more complete than those available for Java. But with JDK 1.2 (Java 2), Java's APIs and libraries are actually more complete and powerful than NextStep/OpenStep. The design of Java and the Java libraries built on a lot of experience from Objective-C and the NextStep/OpenStep APIs. In a sense, up to major syntactic differences, Java is the next generation Objective-C, and Java represents what Objective-C would become if you tried to "fix the few remaining problems". Tom. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tom__98@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:13:58 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> In article <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > If you do anything > in Java, you lose some of the powerful Objective-C idioms like forwarding > and categories. No matter what, you still lose something by using Java. > (Of course, there are gains too, so it's a tradeoff. But the contention > was that you can do "all the same" in Java.) I think Java's nested classes adequately address the kinds of situations where you would use forwarding or categories in Objective-C. In fact, I think nested classes are preferable in many situations (even if they take a while to get used to). Tom. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tom__98@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:30:47 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ncdn$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> In article <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com>, "John Anderson" <janderson@dti.net> wrote: > 4) As one of two standing marketers of traditional desktop PCs, Java has the > potential in the long run to do as much damage to the interests of Apple as > it does to the interests of Microsoft. > [...] > Apple slowly abandons YB and surrenders to Java - somewhat stupidly offering > its throat up to Scott McNealy for the cutting. Why the hostility? Apple makes great hardware and desktop systems. Java is a good environment for them to do that in. > But this is just the beginning. "Foo" runs TODAY on > Windows95/98/NT/2000/MacOSX. WebObjects, the world's premier app server now > fully supports "Foo". The portable "Foo" platform is small and compact - in > comparison Java 2 is BLOATED. Java 2 is big because it has a lot of stuff in it (several megabytes of the distribution are simply i18n related). If you try to provide the same level of functionality in an ObjC system, you will end up with a system that is just as large. > The various Java VMs are unreliable when > compared to the robust "Foo" runtime. The Java 1.2 runtime is very solid. > Database support in "Foo" blows the > doors off of JDBC. "Foo" perfomance trounces Java 2. Not in my experience or benchmarks. > You can download > "Foo" TODAY FREE from Apple and Microsoft's web sites! That would have helped until maybe a year or two ago. It's too bad that neither Apple nor NeXT figured out that they should have made their development tools available for free. I was hoping that after the Apple/NeXT merger, I would be able to get OpenStep development tools for my workgroup for less than several thousand dollars per seat, but Apple never came through on that. With Java 2, the point has become moot, since Java 2 provides more functionality and equal performance at a lower cost. > All for the price of a garbage collector and a phone call to Bill. > Straightforward enough for you? Marketing can be your friend. That emperor has no clothes. You can graft a garbage collector onto Objective-C, but you still end up with a language and runtime system that is built on C, and that means that there are no guarantees of runtime safety or security in such a system. If you make Objective-C runtime safe and provide all the functionality that Java 2 has, you end up with something that, up to syntax, is Java 2. Tom. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: caradoc@neta.com (John Groseclose) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:46:43 -0700 Organization: Yngvi's De-Lousing and Pest Control Message-ID: <caradoc-1401992046430001@caradoc.neta.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 03:45:26 GMT In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: <snip> > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT ^^^ Now *there's* an appropriate phrase... -- -- Send me junk mail, and get a nastygram for your provider. John Groseclose (caradoc@neta.com) http://www.neta.com/~caradoc
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 15 Jan 1999 14:36:22 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <77njp6$ju9$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> tom__98@my-dejanews.com wrote: >In article <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com>, > nurban@vt.edu wrote: >> If you do anything >> in Java, you lose some of the powerful Objective-C idioms like forwarding >> and categories. No matter what, you still lose something by using Java. >> (Of course, there are gains too, so it's a tradeoff. But the contention >> was that you can do "all the same" in Java.) > >I think Java's nested classes adequately address the kinds of situations >where you would use forwarding or categories in Objective-C. In fact, >I think nested classes are preferable in many situations (even if they >take a while to get used to). Hm, I don't think so. Categories allow you to extend a class that you do not have source access to, highly useful for any larger project. I am not aware how nested classes could address that problem, but maybe I'm missing something? Regards, Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:59:48 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> In article <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net>, znu@NOSPAMearthlink.net (znu) wrote: > In article <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" > <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > > > If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it > > finally comes out, it needs: > > > > * LOW price > > * FULL Windows file/networking compatibility > > * Solutions to run UNIX X-Windowing apps immediately or convince UNIX > > engineering app vendors to port to Yellow Box as a solution to the now > > defunct/unsupported MAE heavily used in engineering areas on HP-UX. > > > > ***Reportedly Motorola is speeding up its Mac --> NT migration and it's > > getting Dell 450 Mhz PII's w/128 MB Ram, 6 GB hard drives, and Windows > > NT for $1250 a piece! > > > > Apple is just loosing out with the current OS, and it's timing is WAY > > LATE...Big businesses don't consider today's Mac OS a contender in > > stability, scaleability or cost. Businesses need a scaleable OS TODAY, > > and not just for PPCs, but for Intel PCs too! > > > > Apple should start marketing Yellow Box like it does QuickTime, in fact, > > make it one - QuickTime should install Yellow Box and be a YB app - then > > it'll be installed widely like QT. Then make YB open source or provide > > a mechanism to port it to HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, etc. > > Apple has not yet gone after the business market. Since the New Apple > began, they have gone after the "pro" and "consumer" markets. I don't know > that they will go after the business market, but I bet that some > interesting things would happen if Apple added a business column to that > product grid that Jobs likes to show all the time. Interestingly, the business market is showing some modest level of interest. A number of businesses have switched over to iMacs. Not a lot yet, but the iMac makes a good business solution for a lot of people--especially net booted from Mac OS X Server. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <cleric-0801992142190001@172.arlington-38-39rs.va.dial-access.att.net><776gf9$27i$1@crib.corepower.com> <77jln5$8b@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <SCOTT.99Jan14084000@slave.doubleu.com> Subject: Mac OS X *client* in "about a year" Message-ID: <mwHn2.9037$XY6.213422@news.san.rr.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:36:30 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:37:22 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA "Mac OS X Server, and other Apple server products, are not expected to be a significant part of Apple's current business, though they will play their part in education. The client version of Mac OS X is due in 'about a year." http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/apple-conference-call.shtml ------------------------------------------- "ABOUT" A YEAR!? Given Apple's track record on predictions... I'll guess by mid-2K they'll deliver something they call Mac OS X (client) or they'll change strategy so they don't have too. --Ed.
From: piers@ilink.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB developers wanted... Date: 15 Jan 1999 15:51:39 GMT Organization: Berlin.DE Message-ID: <916415497.301351@newsvl21> References: <77ljhb$j7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nk5l$ju9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote: >malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >>... in the midst of all the doom and gloom, we now have more YB- >>related work than we ever had during the NeXT era, so if you haven't >>yet been totally disheartened and you're interested in starting work >>in the London area soon, please drop me an email. > >Seconded. Lots of YB/WO related work in the Frankfurt area, too. Send >me email if you're interested, I can give you pointers. Now if Apple >would only release YB/NT runtime - it wouldn't have to be free... it >would suffice if it were _available_ :-) > ... and lots of high profile WO work in Duesseldorf and Berlin (both Germany) as well. So if anyone is interested... Piers -- Piers Uso Walter <piers@ilink.de> ilink Kommunikationssysteme GmbH
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:06:28 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <sg.od.in-1501991106290001@10.1.11.85> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > In article <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" > <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > > > If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it > > finally comes out, it needs: > > > > * LOW price > > Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many > MIS types haven't figured that out. The MIS types make their living fixing these things. OF COURSE they are gonna recommend something that *supports their continued existence and allows them to charge more* rather than something that runs better in the first place.. too bad the BEAN COUNTERS haven't figured THIS out. > > * FULL Windows file/networking compatibility > > Why? If you have a Unix or NT server with TCP/IP, the Mac gets along just > fine. Why mess with Windows crap? -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:14:41 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> Organization: Web Information Solutions Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy In article <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >If that truly is the plan -- which I doubt -- there would be ways to do it >without disenfranchising the people who have been nursing the dream. In >fact, there are inexpensive ways to support such people enough to keep them >in the market, keep them informed, and talking positively about the OS that >purportedly represents the future. The fact that Apple has not made ONE >effort in this regard tells me most of what I need to know. One thing that is telling is that Apple will NOT be providing copies of MacOSXS to developers for free. It will be a limited version at a discount at best. -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: Michael Giddings <giddings@genetics.utah.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: 3rd draft of Mini-FAQ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:19:05 -0700 Organization: University of Utah Message-ID: <369F6A79.F658025@genetics.utah.edu> References: <369EC5FD.5E1A2964@genetics.utah.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 16:16:53 GMT Scott Anguish made the suggestion that the FAQ to be sent to Apple be simplified to increase chances that the most important questions might be answered. I have pared down the list to the "basics" that seem to be the predominant questions people want answered. This is the last chance for input before I send it to Apple, so provide feedback ASAP. Remember, this particular list (the one for Apple) needs to stay small and focused. My hope is the longer list of questions posted last night might be made into a FAQ somewhere like Stepwise that can be maintained by the whole community. FAQ for Apple: 1. When will MacOSX/S ship? 2. Will YellowBox/NT ship? What is the expected timing? 3. Will there be a low-cost runtime available for Yellowbox/NT? 4. Will there be a "Workstation" version of MacOSX/S available, sans server features such as WebObjects and Netboot for a reduced cost? 5. Will there be a release of MacOSX/S for intel? 6. Aside from the specified supported platforms, what other machines is it expected that MacOSX/S will run on? 7. Will there be stable serial port support in MacOSX/S? 8. What is the status of IOKit? Will there be any pre-release documentation so developers can get a head start? 9. What is the official support mechanism for YB developers for obtaining pre-release software seeds, documentation, and tech support? 10. What is the staus of Blue Box? Will it be included in MacOSX/S? 11. What is the status of Objective-C in YB? Will developers be expected to move away from it as Apple transitions to Java? Michael Giddings
From: David Griffiths <dgriff@hursley.ibm.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:36:17 +0000 Organization: Primitive Software Ltd. Message-ID: <369F6E81.CA79A981@hursley.ibm.com> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com> <369e8d22.0@news.provo.novell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kristopher Magnusson wrote: > >What do people perceive as the point of Gnustep? Is it to reproduce the > >look and feel and ease of use of NextStep, or is it to reproduce the > >development environment? > > To create a free implementation of the OpenStep APIs. All else are > applications that consume GNUstep. No, I understand the aim, what I meant was, where does the main value lie for the people that want Gnustep? For instance, on a scale of 1 to 10, if you had something that had the exact same look and feel of NeXTStep but internally used completely different API's (eg based on Java/Swing) how valuable would that be? And how valuable would be something that conformed to the OpenStep API but had a completely different look and feel (eg no services, look & feel of Windows NT etc). Just trying to get a handle on what people want from Gnustep. I think there are probably people who want the programming API's and there are other people who want the old NeXTStep look and feel. Personally, if I had something that behaved identically to NeXTStep (services and all) but used completely new API's based on Java I'd be happy. Which would you rather lose, the interface or the implementation? Dave
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:52:56 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> bchin@my-dejanews.com wrote: >If Apple works out the licensing terms for the YB runtime for NT >in the next month, will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for it? >Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, >regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? I know this will make me sound like Apple, but a final decision has not been made yet. The case is less than compelling (see below). >Isn't the code close enough now that it's better to ship and >make a few bucks this year than shelve it and make none? The code is done. In fact, it has been done since September, when Apple was still trying to assemble a Third-Party Solutions CD. But to answer your primary question: No, "making a few bucks this year" is not necessarily a good decision. For one thing, everyone wants the document translators, and they would cost a sizable chunk of up-front money (around $25K) to obtain for OSXS. Even if we were able to sell 500 copies of WriteUp this year -- which I doubt is possible -- that amortizes to a cost of $50 per copy just for the translators. Second, as I have mentioned in the past, it is *very* inefficient for a software company to sell its products in dribs and drabs. There's not enough volume to justify full-time support and fulfillment positions, which means that other people must interrupt their primary responsibilities on an unschedulable basis to deal with these issues. That in turn hurts your primary business, for very little return. On the plus side (yes, there is a plus side), there are a few people who either use WriteUp for its API (report writing and such) or would like to incorporate its capabilities in a "private label" way. Those opportunities, plus the possibility of convincing any new YB developers to use PasteUp and WriteUp in the course of their other work, would be the primary reason to hang around. The slim commercial market for the next year is clearly not sufficient in its own right. Greg
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 15 Jan 1999 16:48:56 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <77nrho$4a2$1@remarQ.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77ekqg$1ra$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nb55$1nd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <77nb55$1nd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <tom__98@my-dejanews.com> wrote: >Before JDK 1.2, the Objective-C APIs under NextStep/OpenStep were still >a bit more complete than those available for Java. But with JDK 1.2 >(Java 2), Java's APIs and libraries are actually more complete and >powerful than NextStep/OpenStep. I wouldn't go that far. OpenStep environments have some major advantages in things like drag & drop, and an understood standard for exchange of data between programs. And the implementation of the Java APIs is still sorta flakey. And Apple/NeXT has a much better idea for running the development environment with IB/PB. In the word that often crops up, OpenStep is seamless, the Java APIs still tacked together in too many places. So, while OpenStep is still probably better than Java 2,, the gap has narrowed quite a bit compared to the gap that exists between OpenStep and the nameless creeping horror that is MFC. And the risk for developing for it is quite a bit less, because you don't have to worry about the whole platfrom getting nuked in some Apple marketing/business ploy. >The design of Java and the Java libraries built on a lot of experience >from Objective-C and the NextStep/OpenStep APIs. In a sense, up to >major syntactic differences, Java is the next generation Objective-C, >and Java represents what Objective-C would become if you tried to >"fix the few remaining problems". Mostly agree with that, but too many people write in Java as if it were C++. The capabilities of the language aren't being fully exploited, as they were by NeXT with Objective-C. Categories, damnit! -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 15 Jan 1999 17:03:05 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <tom__98@my-dejanews.com> wrote: >I think Java's nested classes adequately address the kinds of situations >where you would use forwarding or categories in Objective-C. No no no no no. The major win for categories is adding new methods to existing system classes. You can't do that with inner classes unless you modify the source of the system classes. This is just an amazingly useful capability. Suppose you need the classic Just One More Method in String. You're getting Strings back from all the umpteen million Java API calls that return strings, and you want a String with just a little more capability. You can subclass String to get what you want, but that makes for a bunch of gratuitous classes, and then you have to do translation between the Strings you get back from the Java API calls and the MyStrings you need elsewhere. Categories add that One More Method to String that let you avoid the subclass and the translation. Ditto for working with classes provided by a 3rd party. Forwarding can be pretty handy too, but that doesn't crop up as often. -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: DC <dhba701@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 15 Jan 1999 17:17:53 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <369F7840.1B0297C@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sad thing (well, not really) is that Intergraph is on its death bed. Targeting Apple is its last gasp. Dell just dropped them for graphics adapters (read: HUGE LOSS). They are now outsourcing their desktop production. Rumors have it that the Graphics unit (responsible for their excellent cards) is going to be spun off as a separate company in a few months. Intergraph will not exist as a viable company a year from now. Good riddance. -DC Steve Sullivan wrote: > > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: "cleong" <cleong@NOSPAM.jerseycow.com> Subject: Re: Release OS 4.2 to the GPL Message-ID: <F5M4ty.D1s@news2.new-york.net> References: <77mle5$rah@ttacs7.ttu.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:06:59 GMT Well put. It's a good idea and I hope Apple does it, but they probably won't because Apple will lose the revenue generated by those who download the latest and greatest OPENSTEP (4.3?) in the GPL. Think about what Apple is thinking, "People are already unwilling to pay $995 for MOSX/S!" If OPENSTEP GPL had a forward looking future and was available, I (and a lot of others) wouldn't buy Mac operating systems. This must be problematic for Apple's revenue stream. Cliff Leong Alan A. Barhorst wrote in message <77mle5$rah@ttacs7.ttu.edu>... >Dear Apple Leaders, > It appears that Apple has decided to really focus on its core >markets and it should. I congratulate you all and your team for turning >Apple around. I am disappointed but I do understand that I am not in your >core market. > >I am writing to ask that Apple release (to the Gnu public license or >similar) the source code for Openstep 4.2 and any Nextstep leftovers that >are needed to make Openstep on Mach run. I am also asking that you also >consider making public in due time the API details of MacOSX so that the >public Openstep API can be kept up to date. Also the API for Netinfo (if >it is not already available). > >I ask this for several reasons. The first reason is the fact that the >NeXTStep user experience is the finest available. The developer >environment is very very good. The fact that NeXTStep/OS ran seamlessly >on so many cpu types is another reason. The fact that throwing away: the >creative genius of NeXT's original team, the work of so many NeXT >engineers and other employees, and the work of so many third party (free >and otherwise) developers is wasteful; if it was pollution it would be >taxed based on carbon dumping like the old coal plants along the Ohio >river. > >Think different about it. Take a look at the Peak archive or the Peanuts >archive. There is so much viable and useful code out there that needs a >little updating; throwing it away is a crime of the intellect. The fact >that the Web was started with this elegant artwork (and engineering >masterpiece) is lost to the World, because the leadership at Apple has >focused, but has lost touch with the utility and paternity of its previous >incarnation. Apple will not loose its core by shedding its old skin; a >tool to be used for great purpose by the legions of curious developers. > >When folks give goods to the Goodwill, or directly to the those in need, >we do not give them useless junk we give them slightly outdated (or new) >but useful goods. The Openstep source is slightly outdated but still >very useful, it should still be used and improved like Edison's >incandescent light bulb, or the donated bike that is now the wheels of a >bright eyed youngster or an eager struggling foreign college student. > >Consider the fact that the engineering community rarely uses Apple >products, however there are a few percent that do and there are many >mathematicians and other academics that do. However, code such as Matlab >and other CAD/CAE software will never be ported (or updated) to Apple >hardware for the reason that Apple is not in this market. This will force >this other market further and further from Apple hardware even though it >is more than capable for the task. But the market is huge. If you all >release viable source to the GPL then this other market could be brought >closer to Apple with very little effort from Apple. > >You all are focused like a laser. Let a little light split off. It will >take a different path that can be directed back to the source and >recombine with the original and really shine. Since there seems to be >ways to maintain communication between the split light beams in physics, >there is surely a way for communication to exist between the two Openstep >streams; so that the phase difference at recombination will be zero and we >will get a bright result. > >Think of the goodwill that will be generated for the legions of NeXT >supporters when you all announce the release. There has been a lot of >cash spent on NeXT technology or in support of NeXT technology since its >inception and into the present. It is the least Apple could do to thank >these people for keeping NeXT chief and crew in the computer business. >Keeping them available to turn a miserably flagging Apple around. The >passion that Apple originals have for Apple is the same as the passion the >NeXT originals maintain. Do not crap on these genuine folks. The NeXT >adopters put a lot on the line supporting the last way to think different. >Releasing the source for OS 4.2 is the least that Apple could do to say >thanks. > >Releasing the source could be used to gain mind-share among the World's >programmers. > > CNET, AP, ABC, .... > > Today Apple releases the source code for the environment >that The World Wide Web was developed on. Tim Berners-Lee (sp?) says >".....I used NeXTStep/Openstep because....." > > Apple released the technology to allow the world to see >what is behind the new Apple MacOSX. .... and so on. > >The interest will be as big as it is with Java. What mileage has Sun >gotten from making Java as it is. However, Sun has to put a bunch of >cash into the effort. Openstep is complete enough that Apple could turn >it over; the communication between the streams should cost very little. I >understand that there are equivalent Gnu utilities to replace all the >licensed utilities; Display Ghostscript needs to be finished. > >It is possible you all could support a "Red Hat" style corporation to >maintain the open source records. This way you all could help place the >prisms that will bring the two source streams back together. > >Release Openstep 4.2 to the GPL. It is in the best interest of all >concerned. Apple will maintain its focus, and the NeXT will not be so >shat upon. Most of all the ideas that formed the NeXT idea will be >improved and will run on all the various cpu and computer architectures >(past, present, and future) at little to no cost to Apple. This in itself >makes releasing the source a worthy endeavor. > >NeXTStep was not a lab demo. It worked masterfully and should be shown to >all that will look. A lot of good ideas die on the vine, but this one was >viable fruit; let the GPL take it to wine, do not let it wither. Apple >has harvested what it wanted, give the rest to somebody else to use to its >fullness. There is no need to let it become useless carbon chains. > >Gabriel Androczky has provided a nice picture that sums up the feeling, >but by no means the mentality or intellect of the NeXTway adopters. It is >probably not a good idea to have this (i.e. NeXT adopters) crew against >you. >http://www.accentcomm.com/previews/devandyb2.jpg > >--- >AB >_______________________________________________________________ >Alan A. Barhorst, PhD, PE | alan@osci.me.ttu.edu >Associate Professor | http://www.osci.ttu.edu/ >Mechanical Engineering | >Texas Tech University | NeXT, MIME, Sun, & ASCII mail > >When leaders disregard the law and human dignity, kooks are >emboldened; innocence lost. > >Human potential cannot be developed or measured from a floating >moral reference frame. >_______________________________________________________________
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 15 Jan 1999 17:52:29 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77nv8t$96a$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> wrote: : In article <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <tom__98@my-dejanews.com> wrote: : >I think Java's nested classes adequately address the kinds of situations : >where you would use forwarding or categories in Objective-C. : No no no no no. : The major win for categories is adding new methods to existing : system classes. You can't do that with inner classes unless you : modify the source of the system classes. : This is just an amazingly useful capability. Suppose you need : the classic Just One More Method in String. [...] Knowing some Java but only knowing Objective-C from what I hear in discusions such as this, I'd have to call this is a win for Objective-C. Java is a rich enough environment that one can build expansions and extensions with a moderate pain level, but the pain is there. If I had to do an extension to String, I'd probably make use of one of the load/unload functions to convert it to an array of characters, and then do some kind of peer class to operate on the unloaded characters before puting them back in a String object. The overhead and complexity would be lower than a String subclass - but the Objective-C system sounds like even less overhead and less complexity. John
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 15 Jan 1999 18:32:43 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77o1kb$ki$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com> <77lqdb$q69$1@decius.ultra.net> <369E7105.11125CEE@ericsson.com> In article <369E7105.11125CEE@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >But Half-Life's are excellent. Yes. I was surprised. Half-Life also gets around the rambling-talking-head problem by having the characters only say a little bit. There are only a couple of places where the people you meet say more than one or two sentences. >Unfortunately for both of us, more reality is the trend in computer >gaming. A good compromise would be to have the text show up at the same time as the person is speaking, like the cutscenes of early LucasArts games. You can install the spoken words if you want, but you can also read ahead... >> Give me text anytime. At least the guys in Half-Life don't ramble on and on >> at you... > >Sometimes they do. But I just figured they were being true-to-form, for >scientists. The geeks tend to ramble a lot more than the Special Forces >dudes, for instance. True enough. And you don't have to sit down and listen to five minutes of anyone's diary or logs or whatever... Why do people think that video diaries or video email is a good idea? It's so low-bandwidth... (Especially with the amount of bandwidth it takes to transfer it!) Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: mute@sidehack.sat.gweep.net (Josh Brandt) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 15 Jan 1999 18:34:02 GMT Organization: GweepNet, the GweepCo Cooperative Network - Worcester, MA Message-ID: <77o1mq$gk8$1@decius.ultra.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <mLqn2.149$u8.475@news7.ispnews.com> <77lqdb$q69$1@decius.ultra.net> <jwct-1401991749060001@port-2-206.magma.ca> In article <jwct-1401991749060001@port-2-206.magma.ca>, J.W. Corey Tamas <jwct@magma.ca> wrote: >I'm against the trend to have spoken cues without text in games because it >just means there are fewer games he can play. Y'know, that's another good point. He's definitely in the minority, but it's a good argument for at least having the option to display spoken bits as text. Josh -- ...said it was heaven just to breathe your air Severed Heads J. Brandt - mute@sidehack.gweep.net
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:13:31 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> Michael wrote in message <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca>... >I'm not sure what you are referring to by document translators. >You mean for translation from other wp documents? Yes. >I'm not sure it's relevant to what you mean, but most translation on >Macs is done via MacLinkPlus, which used to be bundled with MacOS. Unfortunately, no such standard ever existed on NEXTSTEP or OPENSTEP, despite my best efforts to convince NeXT that a universal translator service would be an important feature. We wrote our own "service" (in the NEXTSTEP sense of the word) to perform this task, using a set of third-party document translators from a company called MasterSoft (now part of Inso). Greg
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:07:06 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p20.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 19:06:12 GMT Greg Anderson wrote: > <snip> > The code is done. In fact, it has been done since September, when Apple was > still trying to assemble a Third-Party Solutions CD. But to answer your > primary question: No, "making a few bucks this year" is not necessarily a > good decision. For one thing, everyone wants the document translators, and > they would cost a sizable chunk of up-front money (around $25K) to obtain > for OSXS. Even if we were able to sell 500 copies of WriteUp this year -- > which I doubt is possible -- that amortizes to a cost of $50 per copy just > for the translators. > <snip again> Greg, I'm not sure what you are referring to by document translators. You mean for translation from other wp documents? I'm not sure it's relevant to what you mean, but most translation on Macs is done via MacLinkPlus, which used to be bundled with MacOS. In fact Creator2, the layout program I'm currently using, imports all text in RTF format, automatically linking to MacLink+ to do translations from other formats. Michael Monner
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 15 Jan 1999 19:45:53 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77o5th$bdd$1@news.xmission.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 19:45:53 GMT tom__98@my-dejanews.com wrote: > I think Java's nested classes adequately address the kinds of > situations where you would use forwarding or categories in Objective- > C. In fact, I think nested classes are preferable in many situations > (even if they take a while to get used to). This statement demonstrates your ignorance of what Objective-C is and can do. For example, how would you patch existing classes without subclassing to either add functionality or work around bugs? How would you propose using nested clases to creat EOFault objects or NSProxy objects, and have them both function as cleanly as they do in Objective-C? How about the MiscTee class? If you can even implement them at all, you'll find that the Java implementation requires at least 10x as much code and is much harder to use. Just look at the differences between RMI and PDO for starters...and that only scratches the surface! Don McGregor wrote: > Forwarding can be pretty handy too, but that doesn't crop up > as often. Oh, sure. Only every time you use PDO, EOF, IB....need I say more? You may not _know_ that you're using it, but you are. The magic of most of these tools, when you look under the hood, is directly attributable to things that are easy to do in Objective-C (or Smalltalk for that matter) but difficult to do under Java and even harder with C++. The problem is that NeXT made things *too* easy, in a sense, so most people don't realize what is going on. If they did, they'd swear by Objective-C (and swear _at_ Java). I use both languages daily and, I'm sorry, but Java doesn't cut the mustard for big projects, applications, etc. yet and will not for at LEAST another two years, and may never. Java is good for applets, some embedded applications, etc. but it is totally being deployed in places it shouldn't be. It will be the next C++, all right...and to see what I mean, I recommend this faux interview: "Interview" with Bjarne Stroustrup This is a satirical interview with Bjarne Stroustrup, the creator of C++, in the tradition of the "Microsoft acquires the Catholic Church" press release. While intended as humor, it is a more effective at pointing out the defects of C++ than many serious articles on the subject. http://www.wosource.com/bjarne_stroustrop.html -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: David Pascua <pascua+@andrew.cmu.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB developers wanted... Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:41:44 -0500 Organization: Alumni account, GSIA Alumni Network, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Message-ID: <cqbtbs200UiV020nEx@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <77ljhb$j7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nk5l$ju9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <916415497.301351@newsvl21> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 19:44:35 GMT Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 15-Jan-99 Re: YB developers wanted... by piers@ilink.de > Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> wrote: > >malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > >>... in the midst of all the doom and gloom, we now have more YB- > >>related work than we ever had during the NeXT era, so if you haven't > >>yet been totally disheartened and you're interested in starting work > >>in the London area soon, please drop me an email. > > > >Seconded. Lots of YB/WO related work in the Frankfurt area, too. Send > >me email if you're interested, I can give you pointers. Now if Apple > >would only release YB/NT runtime - it wouldn't have to be free... it > >would suffice if it were _available_ :-) > > > > ... and lots of high profile WO work in Duesseldorf and Berlin (both Germany) > as well. So if anyone is interested... > So are there any such type of work in the US? Specifically in the RTP, NC area? -Dave
From: "Matthias Werner" <MWerner@bigfoot.de> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:42:12 +0100 Organization: Customer of UUNET Deutschland GmbH, Dortmund, Germany Message-ID: <77o7ji$i3e$3@goof.de.uu.net> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <77g81h$lgf$1@plo.sierra.com> <369CBEC8.C0C811@cfc.dnd.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ken Macdonald schrieb in Nachricht <369CBEC8.C0C811@cfc.dnd.ca>... >MiNT Is this a real, running OS, or just a insane desire? >(add LiNUX and TOS, heat and serve -> MiNT) Where can I get it or at least screenshots? answers -> please email to MWerner@bigfoot.de (spam is fought back against)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:29:40 -0500 From: "Steve Seidel" <seidel@enter.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> Organization: Enter.Net ---------- In article <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris Black) wrote: > In article <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net>, > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net says... >> Chris Black <c@c.com> wrote: >> >> > In article <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------- >> > > In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, >> > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are >> > > > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: >> > > > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that >> > > > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. >> > > > >> > > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. >> > > > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT >> > > >> > > I have nothing against Intergraph, but what does big business have to do >> > > with the graphics market? NT has made inroads on this market mostly because >> > > of NT has a better server offering than Apple. With Mac OS X server coupled >> > > with Mac OS X, this is likely to swing the other way. NT has it's >> > > advantages, but so does Mac OS. NT's advantages are mostly with servers, >> > > etc. Further, some customers are requiring the buzzwords (PMT, protected >> > > memory, etc.) Whereas the Macs advantages are with graphics (i.e. system >> > > level color sync, etc.) Once MacOS X comes out, NT looses whatever >> > > advantage it once had. >> > >> > Could you please expand on the "etc." part in your statement about Mac >> > graphic superiority. Exactly what are the Mac's advantages at graphics >> > over a PC? While you're at it, please tell me exactly how the >> > currently vaporous MacOS X (or even the shipping one that's still about a >> > year off) will negate NT's advantage. >> > >> > Chris. >> >> If you want to ask what advantages the Mac has over a PC, don't include >> Intergraph. Intergraph is a workstation, not a PC. Sure, it runs NT, >> and it uses an Intel processor. But none of the rest of its >> architecture is "PC." >> >> The Intergraph graphics advantage comes from its proprietary, expensive >> graphics hardware, not from NT or its Intel processor. >> >> Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. >> Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been >> created. > > MacOS X server has been seeded to developers and is still semi-vapourous > as far as the market is concerned.. It's at least on par with what mac > advocates call vapor (NT 5 - Windows2000). MacOS X workstation is about a > year off and is still pure vapor. The original poster was comparing MacOS > X workstation to NT. I still want to know the answer to my question BTW. > LOL! MacOS X server is about a month from official release. When is your vaporous NT 5/Windoze 2000 shipping? Even Mac OS X will be shipping before that. Please, save us the vaporware speech. Apple has been back on track with their OS delivery schedules since Mac OS 7.6. Microsoft, OTH, never meets deadlines. Steve
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB developers wanted... Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:11:26 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77o7d5$aco@shelob.afs.com> References: <77ljhb$j7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nk5l$ju9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de><916415497.301351@newsvl21> <cqbtbs200UiV020nEx@andrew.cmu.edu> David Pascua wrote: >So are there any such type of work in the US? >Specifically in the RTP, NC area? As a matter of fact, technicalSCOUTS posted a message in c.s.n.announce earlier this week, looking for someone in your area. Check it out. Greg
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:09:51 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn79sqpf.flj.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:45 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >Browne) wrote: > >>On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT, Anthony Ord >><nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use >>>Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? >> >>Install Leafnode, and use whatever newsreader you like as an "offline" >>reader for your "offline" spool. >> >>Or install slrnpull, which is oriented towards slrn. >> >>There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a >>news browser, and vice versa. > >Alas, my transport details appear obtrusively on my phone bill every >quarter. So? That's no excuse for imbedding the transport into the viewing agent. It's simply uncessary. > >>That's called Careful Design. > >Unless the user (me) wants it there - and I do. In that case it is the >Wrong Design. The user needn't even be aware of the difference. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:22:39 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <77o82f$o4c$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <SCOTT.99Jan14091921@slave.doubleu.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:22:39 GMT Scott Hess (scott@nospam.doubleu.com) wrote: > In article <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes: > We saw what happened to the Newton. If Jobs wanted to scrap YB > there wouldn't be engineers working on it now. > All public information in the Newton affair consistently indicated > that Newton's death was a surprise to pretty much everyone at Newton > _and_ at Apple. It's worse than that. After spending $40 million to get the Newton MessagePad to where it was, Apple was poised to have the Newton show its first profitable year, with the Emate 300 doing very very well, and the MP2100 effectively ravaging the far slower WinCE machines at the same price point. Newton had finally come into its own when Steve killed the project. THEN, despite several serious proposals ($$$), Apple refused to spin off, sell, or even license the Newton's considerable technology. They've sat on it for a year now, and it has become clear that Apple intends for the Newton technology (excepting possibly Rosetta, Apple's handwriting engine) to never again see the light of day. Especially after it was revealed that Steve tried to buy Palm. Does refusing to license make much financial sense? Of course not. It is clear that Newton was Steved for one reason and one reason only: the Newton MessagePad was John Sculley's brainchild. Apple has just been sued by Harris Semiconductor over its unlawful termination of a $20 million contract when it canned the Newton. Harris was a Newton VAR, and a big one. Expect Apple to get hit by more suits. And I'd wager they'll lose them. Sean
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:58:52 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p254.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:58:37 GMT Greg Anderson wrote: > Michael wrote in message <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca>... > >I'm not sure what you are referring to by document translators. > >You mean for translation from other wp documents? > > Yes. > > >I'm not sure it's relevant to what you mean, but most translation on > >Macs is done via MacLinkPlus, which used to be bundled with MacOS. > > Unfortunately, no such standard ever existed on NEXTSTEP or OPENSTEP, > despite my best efforts to convince NeXT that a universal translator service > would be an important feature. We wrote our own "service" (in the NEXTSTEP > sense of the word) to perform this task, using a set of third-party document > translators from a company called MasterSoft (now part of Inso). > > Greg So then whats the $25k for? If you can translate Word 97 docs then you can translate Word 98 (same format) so that covers most Mac users right there. Use RTF and tap into MacLink+ for the rest. Give it a couple months fir your sales to get up in the thousands and the MacLink+ people will do a translator for WriteUp and you'll be set. Trust me. Michael Monner
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5MEnF.Hr8@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: chuck@codefab.com Organization: needs one References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net> <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:35:38 GMT In <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote: > But syslog can be useful to developers for tracking the execution of > program logic-- business rules, transactions being processed, Sure. I suppose my only problem with it "in theory" is that it's not always clear where particular messages are going to end up, in the log, the console, or somewhere else. At the same time the standards seem to be either non-existant or simply not followed. It just needs to be cleaned up with some guidelines, but that seems to describe the vast majority of Unix. Speaking of, why does ftp still suck so bad? I was trying to upload a file and couldn't do it. Why not? Because I couldn't figure out how to set the mode to binary. I tried "mode binary" which makes sense to me, but it replied "we support only STREAM mode, sorry". So I did a "mode stream". Same thing. "mode STREAM". Nope. "mode s"? Nope. Then I read the man, which basically says nothing useful whatsoever. You'd think this would be a common question but apparently the author didn't think so so there's no examples of how to set the mode. However the end of the document refers to "type image" so I tried various "mode image" incarnations with the same result. Of course the actual solution, simply "binary" is not mentioned in reference to "mode", nor is the explaination of the difference between mode and type explained anywhere. And to think that in all the versions of ftp, no one bothered to either fix this, or document it. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: edremy@chemserver.chem.vt.edu Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:54:00 GMT In <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> Eric Remy wrote: > No- I'm claiming that professionals/corporations are switching from things > like Win95 to Linux and NT. They could be switching to Rhapsody, but they > can't- not due to technical reasons, but marketing ones. Stupid move. I note for the record that you still haven't attempted to answer the question. But to the post at hand, I simply disagree. I don't feel this product is useful to the same group that is using WinNT. It is likely useful to the people that use Linux, but that group is the first to say that they will not use a product if the code is not in the public domain. So again, WHERE IS THE MARKET? This changes _completely_ with OS-X - assuming OS-X is good that is. > Yep. For example, I'm probably going to buy a computer in the next year > for myself. Am I going to buy a Mac? I seriously don't know You don't have to tell me, I actually _bought_ a PC. It's running on that machine that makes me come to the conclusion I stated above. > Now, you can comment that Apple will only lose one year of sales to people > like me, but given Apple's dismal track record for shipping a modern > user-level OS, it could be many more years. Still, since the iMac is > selling and Steve would rather have fruit-colored computers than a modern > OS, Apple won't bother to ship a modern, affordable OS today. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. But again this still has no bearing on the issue. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:55:31 GMT In <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > One of the things I've come to realize over the past week is that the > milestone I passed on Wed the 6th was more subtle than I realized. > The risks from staying with YellowBox began to overwhelm the > development advantages YellowBox gives me. True as this may be in your case, I jump out of airplanes for fun and clearly have a different risk analysis criterion. Thus if this is what the thread comes down to (as it appears to do) then it's not at all clear why anyone should be _upset_ about it. > For me, the main difference between now and before Apple bought NeXT > is that if NeXT went out of business pushing a solution that I found > so obviously workable, that was a condemnation of the state of the > market. Apple apparently de-prioritizing a solution I find so > obviously workable is a condemndation of the state of Apple. I > _expect_ the market to be fairly capricious, I had _hoped_ Apple would > not be so. Well as far as I'm concerned the only reality is the product. If NeXT died and killed the product I see no non-emotional difference than if Apple doesn't die but kills the product. You're trying to tell me above that there is a logical reason for your decision, but here say the difference is merely political in nature. But that's what I've been saying all along, this IS a case of "the glass is half empty" and always has been. I'd say that the hallmark of an OpenStep developer is that they will claim that they have made their choices based on clear technical reasons. Here you lay waste to that claim. I'm not pointing the finger here, I never believed it in the first place. But the fact remains that the product _today_ is in better shape than anyone here suggests it would have been under NeXT by this time (ie, a NT development tool) and you have made your decision on the basis of your personal read into other people's comments that say the opposite. The main point of contension is that Apple states "we are continuing development but don't know how to sell it", and you have read as "we are killing the product" and your comments to date have never included an "in my opinion". I'm sorry to be blunt Scott, but right or wrong this is all JUST YOUR OPINION. When someone else looks at the same statements and suggests they mean something else, you've blasted them as being naive, which is terribly unfair even if you're right. One year from now one of us gets to say "I told you so", but in the meantime it's only name calling. So please stop telling people like myself and mmalc that we're stupid for looking at the same evidence and coming to a different conclusion. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Message-ID: <slrn79v0qo.5gg.mark@ns1.oaai.com> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc. References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <F5KB0B.3rv@T-FCN.Net> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:03:27 GMT In article <F5KB0B.3rv@T-FCN.Net>, Maury Markowitz wrote: >In <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> "John Anderson" wrote: >> Given the Business Realities there appear two alternatives: >> >> Apple slowly abandons YB and surrenders to Java - somewhat stupidly >> offering its throat up to Scott McNealy for the cutting. > > Ok. > >> or >> >> Steve Jobs announces to great fanfare with partner Microsoft: >> >> "FOO"!!! > > Let me see if I have to right, partnering with Sun by using Java is a bad >idea because Scott N might be trouble, but partnering with MS is just fine? >Some argument that is! You also neglect to mention why MS would want >anything to do with it, because they won't. > >Maury > No, I think the FOO idea is more plausible that you might think. MS sorely needs something to beat Java with and it's looking less and less as though that thing is going to be a "hijacking" of the Java standard (MS' Plan A). Microsoft also critically needs to appear to be working with others in the industry -- particularly those who the public can identify as its "competitors." A deal for development tools and an advanced OO development environment with seamless bridges to Java, licensed from its longstanding competitor Apple, makes an interesting "Plan B" for Microsoft. I also think that Apple is well aware of the Java's implicit threat. Right now, Sun is starting to make noises that it's less and less interested in "letting go" of Java in deference to its "partners." Sun today is a dangerous partner in the same way MS would be a dangerous partner if you decided to build your OS overtop of NT. A deal with Microsoft maintains Apple's franchise -- the MacOS -- and allows Apple to continue playing "Pepsi" to MS' "Coca-Cola." A deal with Sun is, speaking generously, setting out into uncharted waters -- waters where the MacOS franchise may one day lose all of its value altogether. A deal with Microsoft has the potential of fortifying MacOS. Regards, Mark
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 15 Jan 1999 14:20:27 PST Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > Interestingly, the business market is showing some modest level of > interest. A number of businesses have switched over to iMacs. Not a lot > yet, but the iMac makes a good business solution for a lot of > people--especially net booted from Mac OS X Server. I havent really heard anything about this (pro or con) so I cant really comment, but I can say in the near term, Apple blow its chances for widespread converts by killing os x server for intel. Lots of big companies, simply will not buy apple hardware at this point. Due to how their budgets are arranged tho, they ARE able to justify spending $1000 for macos software
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:16:00 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p174.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369FBE1F.4165DEB9@tone.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 22:15:43 GMT Michael wrote: > Greg Anderson wrote: > > > Michael wrote in message <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca>... > > >I'm not sure what you are referring to by document translators. > > >You mean for translation from other wp documents? > > > > Yes. > > > > >I'm not sure it's relevant to what you mean, but most translation on > > >Macs is done via MacLinkPlus, which used to be bundled with MacOS. > > > > Unfortunately, no such standard ever existed on NEXTSTEP or OPENSTEP, > > despite my best efforts to convince NeXT that a universal translator service > > would be an important feature. We wrote our own "service" (in the NEXTSTEP > > sense of the word) to perform this task, using a set of third-party document > > translators from a company called MasterSoft (now part of Inso). > > > > Greg > > So then whats the $25k for? If you can translate Word 97 docs then you can > translate Word 98 (same format) so that covers most Mac users right there. Use > RTF and tap into MacLink+ for the rest. Give it a couple months fir your sales > to get up in the thousands and the MacLink+ people will do a translator for > WriteUp and you'll be set. Trust me. > > Michael Monner Sorry Greg, I forgot we were dealing with different platforms here so we have to use MacLink+ in the blue box, so it isn't quite as easy as I said. On the other hand 95% of the stuff I publish comes from PCs using MSWord or WordPerfect, so it should be easier dealing with WriteUp and PasteUp in OSXS than what I do now. Another question I have: what might be available in OSXS for scanning software? Both graphics and text/ocr? Michael
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:25:09 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p118.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 22:24:48 GMT "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: > <snip> > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > >created. > > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not > be in the first shipping release. <snip> > -Steve Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I copyright it, or release it into public domain. Hmmm. Michael Monner
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:20:06 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77oeu3$b35@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca> Michael wrote in message <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca>... >So then whats the $25k for? It's a big set of filters that covers every conceivable word processor going back to WordStar, in both directions (reading and writing). Unfortunately, since Inso is not interested in this market, it's an all-or-nothing deal for us. In exchange for a sizable up-front payment, AFS would get Inso's source code, build the translators ourselves, and distribute them to end-users along with the rest of our application. It's a big risk, given how Apple is treating OSXS at the moment. >If you can translate Word 97 docs then you can translate Word 98 >(same format) so that covers most Mac users right there. What about ClarisWorks and WriteNow, among others? >Use RTF and tap into MacLink+ for the rest. We have our own native RTF translator, so that is a possible solution in a teachnical sense. But we have found that most users do not want to go through the extra step of opening a Word document, saving it as RTF, and then reloading it into WriteUp. Hardly surprising. As to MacLink+, there is no road map (that I am aware of) for this service being provided to YB applications. Greg
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:23:09 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77of3m$b3a@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991439070001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Alex Kac wrote: >Could you not sell it at a reduced price with no support >or document translators? That would be better than nothing. Providing an application to newcomers with no support is not a good way to build mindshare and market share. As to the translators, that is by far the first question we hear from every prospect: "Can I use my Word documents?" Without this capabilitiy, any new word processor is a non-starter. >I mean all my Word documents can be saved as RTF with NO >loss of info since I do pure writing in Word, and then import all >my writing into PageMaker for layout. I could do the same with >Writeup/Pasteup. True, but trust me: most users are not willing to undertake a two-step process. I've been through this for many years, and I know what kind of reaction we would get without Word compatibility. Greg
From: c@c.com (Chris Black) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:11:37 -0700 References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> Organization: Tridim Message-ID: <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> In article <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... > >> Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > >> Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > >> created. > > > > MacOS X server has been seeded to developers and is still semi-vapourous > > as far as the market is concerned.. It's at least on par with what mac > > advocates call vapor (NT 5 - Windows2000). MacOS X workstation is about a > > year off and is still pure vapor. The original poster was comparing MacOS > > X workstation to NT. I still want to know the answer to my question BTW. > > > LOL! MacOS X server is about a month from official release. When is your > vaporous NT 5/Windoze 2000 shipping? Even Mac OS X will be shipping before > that. Please, save us the vaporware speech. Apple has been back on track > with their OS delivery schedules since Mac OS 7.6. Microsoft, OTH, never > meets deadlines. I doesn't really matter to me when Windows 2000 ships as I already have it installed and running smoothly on two of my machines. In the mean time I also have NT4 workstation and server (both modern OSs, unlike the MacOS) purring along as well. BTW MacOSX server was supposed to ship about a year ago in the form of Rhapshody, so don't give me that "Apple has been on track" gibberish. Copland anyone?? Ahh, looks like another opportunity for a bet! Any welching macheads out there willing to take me up on the bet that Win2000 will ship before OSX? Chris
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:44:34 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ogcg$41g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> In article <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > As much as I like Malcolm, [...] his responsbilities at P&L are oriented > more to development than management. > Umm, this turns out not to be the case... Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Worst Operating Systems? Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:13:44 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <77o7ho$o4c$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <rtaylor-1101992222370001@alander.cmc.net> <petrich-1201990308300001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1301991106260001@tog.anu.edu.au> <christian.bau-1301991359580001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> <Hugh.Fisher-1501991013130001@tog.anu.edu.au> <77ml2b$n7e@chronicle.concentric.net> <FILTER-1401992312280001@tele-anx0517.colorado.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:13:44 GMT jeff (FILTER@colorado.edu) wrote: > Hiawatha Bray wrote: > Just a quick note: It is true that the memory space needs to be > dynamically addressed, but the reason that your out-of-memory error came > up was not because your RAM was filled up. It's probably because of the > fact that the default memory settings on Sherlock are set unrealistically > low and need to be upped by hand (I tripled it). Your 128M RAM is more > than plenty enough to do what you're doing. The error had to do with the > RAM allocation to that program. As an aside, I was rather humored by this: my program for the Newton (Hemlock) is more capable than Sherlock in many respects (especially handling multiple plugin sets), yet it take up 80K of space and consumes an additional 50K or so of memory when running. See http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/seanl/newton/ Yowza! Code bloat at its finest. Sean
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:32:05 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <77oj5l$sso@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <77ogcg$41g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com>, > "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > > As much as I like Malcolm, [...] his responsbilities at P&L are oriented > > more to development than management. > > > Umm, this turns out not to be the case... Perhaps, but that's how we like to think of you. :)
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:34:50 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <77ojaq$sso@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca> <369FBE1F.4165DEB9@tone.ca> Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: >Sorry Greg, I forgot we were dealing with different platforms here so we >have to use MacLink+ in the blue box, so it isn't quite as easy as I said. Isn't there some AppleScript linkage between Yellow and Blue? Is MacLink+ scriptable?
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:49:03 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77ok5f$eeq$1@news.xmission.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991439070001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77of3m$b3a@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:49:03 GMT "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > Alex Kac wrote: > > >Could you not sell it at a reduced price with no support > >or document translators? That would be better than nothing. > > Providing an application to newcomers with no support is not a good > way to build mindshare and market share. As to the translators, that > is by far the first question we hear from every prospect: "Can I use > my Word documents?" Without this capabilitiy, any new word processor > is a non-starter. Greg's got a great point. A "power user" such as many of us are may be willing to go through a few extra steps, but not many other people ("regular" users) would be. They'd just keep using Word in the Blue Box instead of bothering with WriteUp. Really. And selling without support is a total non-starter for the market you'd be trying to hit with a word processor. Of course, Mac OS X Server itself is a non-starter for that market, which is part of the problem right there! That means the only viable market Greg can hit (if you can even call it "viable") would be to deploy on Winblows. As if you'd even stand a chance getting a product to break through in that already overcrowded marketplace. And that's assuming that you can come up with a YB deployment license that does't force you to price yourself right out of the market. (That may happen, but Apple's not been forthcoming enough about the licensing details yet, so you can't expect it or plan for it...) In other words, for at least the next year, Greg has NO feasible deployment options. The app is ready but will have to wait. Depending upon his financial position and future business plans, he can either kill the whole project and write up a loss on the balance sheet, sell it to someone who is in a better position to do something with it, or sit on the code until a real deployment option is available. The latter is the riskiest, since there's no guarantee that it will *ever* appear. The other two choices vary depending upon whether the loss would help his tax situation (to offset profits, it may be best to knife it) and whether there are any viable, reasonable offers to buy the code base. And even then, depending upon the sale price, he might still be taking a loss on the whole thing! It's an ugle position to be in, and I don't envy it. Yet that doesn't mean I am wise enough to not put myself in that same position, though! :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:50:32 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <77ok88$sso@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: > In <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > > One of the things I've come to realize over the past week is that the > > milestone I passed on Wed the 6th was more subtle than I realized. > > The risks from staying with YellowBox began to overwhelm the > > development advantages YellowBox gives me. > True as this may be in your case, I jump out of airplanes for fun and > clearly have a different risk analysis criterion. If you could compress six years of NeXT development crises into a few minutes, I suspect you'd get a similar feeling. It'd be closer if you parachute through bursts of flak. But since YB crises progress so slowly, you'd have to be Strom Thurmond to get an adrenaline rush from it. > The main point of contension is that Apple states "we are continuing > development but don't know how to sell it", and you have read as "we are > killing the product" and your comments to date have never included an "in > my opinion". I'm sorry to be blunt Scott, but right or wrong this is all > JUST YOUR OPINION. I think there's a sense that Apple honestly means it when they say they can't figure out how to sell it, but a suspicion that they'll just punt and kill it rather than trying to sell it. "We might be wrong, so let's just not bother" The decision to kill Intel looks a bit like this. I suspect that YB'ers would feel much, much more secure if Apple hadn't decided to kill the Intel version so late in the game. Apple could easily kill YB, or decide to keep it for internal Apple use only. Given the way the Intel port silently 'disappeared', it seems entirely possible that the same could happen to YB next year when Jobs is introducing OS/X.
From: "Kristopher Magnusson" <kmagnusson@novell.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com> <369e8d22.0@news.provo.novell.com> <369F6E81.CA79A981@hursley.ibm.com> Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:09:57 -0700 Message-ID: <369fd8d9.0@news.provo.novell.com> David Griffiths wrote in message <369F6E81.CA79A981@hursley.ibm.com>... >Kristopher Magnusson wrote: > >> >What do people perceive as the point of Gnustep? Is it to reproduce the >> >look and feel and ease of use of NextStep, or is it to reproduce the >> >development environment? >> >> To create a free implementation of the OpenStep APIs. All else are >> applications that consume GNUstep. > >No, I understand the aim, what I meant was, where does the main value >lie for the people that want Gnustep? For instance, on a scale of 1 to >10, if you had something that had the exact same look and feel of >NeXTStep but internally used completely different API's (eg based on >Java/Swing) how valuable would that be? 10, if you mean Interface Builder as well as the Workspace Manager. >And how valuable would be >something that conformed to the OpenStep API but had a completely >different look and feel (eg no services, look & feel of Windows NT etc). 7. >Just trying to get a handle on what people want from Gnustep. I think >there are probably people who want the programming API's and there are >other people who want the old NeXTStep look and feel. Personally, if I >had something that behaved identically to NeXTStep (services and all) >but used completely new API's based on Java I'd be happy. I would very much like something like this for Java. I actually built a JFC workspace at one point, complete with dock. But the nice thing about NEXTSTEP is the fact that it has the performance of native C applications, less a couple of percent for the run-time. Java can't claim this--yet. >Which would you rather lose, the interface or the implementation? If you are asking if I would rather have the UI or the APIs, I'd say, give me the UI. That's because (a) Java is a substitute for OPENSTEP, (2) currently I have a lot more energy invested in Java than in OPENSTEP, and (3) because every day I become angry with Windows, KDE, and the Mac because I really prefer the L&F of the NeXT Workspace Manager and its utilities. ................ kris
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:04:00 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p07.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <369FE57E.C71F9370@tone.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca> <77oeu3$b35@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 01:03:40 GMT Greg Anderson wrote: > Michael wrote in message <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca>... > > >So then whats the $25k for? > > It's a big set of filters that covers every conceivable word processor going > back to WordStar, in both directions (reading and writing). Unfortunately, > since Inso is not interested in this market, it's an all-or-nothing deal for > us. In exchange for a sizable up-front payment, AFS would get Inso's source > code, build the translators ourselves, and distribute them to end-users > along with the rest of our application. It's a big risk, given how Apple is > treating OSXS at the moment. So, to make sure I understand, these are translators you are using now in the OpenStep version of WriteUp, and they aren't interested in porting them to OSXS? So in effect without them you only have RTF access in OSXS? > > > >If you can translate Word 97 docs then you can translate Word 98 > >(same format) so that covers most Mac users right there. > > What about ClarisWorks and WriteNow, among others? > > >Use RTF and tap into MacLink+ for the rest. > > We have our own native RTF translator, so that is a possible solution in a > teachnical sense. But we have found that most users do not want to go > through the extra step of opening a Word document, saving it as RTF, and > then reloading it into WriteUp. Not if they have to do it on a regular basis. The way MacLink+ works now you can drag and drop one or more documents onto its icon, and have them all converted in one swell fwoop to your format of choice, and stored into your folder of choice. So this would be a blue box operation, not requiring you to bring up your word processor. All these RTF documents would be sitting in one place to be accessed by WriteUp. Not perfect, but not much worse than what I'm doing now. > Hardly surprising. As to MacLink+, there is > no road map (that I am aware of) for this service being provided to YB > applications. > Might be worthwhile checking out their plans. > > Greg
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:40:19 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m3soddyzj0.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <XyJBILxP#GA.243@pet.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal "Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com> writes: -> Bob Canup wrote in message <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org>... -> > -> >A rhetorical point here: -> -> And a stupid one at that. -> -> > People who won't show you their source code generally -> >have something to hide. -> > -> Yes, their patentable ideas and algorithms. Just like Intel doesn't give -> away the design schematics for x86 processors. <rant> Why does US patent law allow you to patent an idea (or algorithm)? It is not a mechanical device. It isn't even a thing in the physical sense. In point of fact it is a number. Just a big fucking number. How the hell can that be patented? The law is stupid and should be changed. </rant> When you patent something, you have to reveal the design. Anybody can look up the patent and see it. What is being 'hidden' is a trade secret. That secret is "the code sucks". Would you show of crappy code to the world? Not if you knew it was crappy or you at least put a comment in the code saying that you know it's crappy but it was a quick hack. Open Source code gets a lot of eyeballs looking at it. People can and will suggest ways to fix crappy code. Actually, not all microsoft code is hidden. Take a look at MFC sometime. If that is their coding standard, then a lot about Windows has been explained. -- David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail "Hackers penetrate and ravage delicate, private, and publicly owned computer systems, infecting them with viruses and stealing materials for their own ends. These people, they're, they're terrorists." -- Secret Service Agent Richard Gill
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 16 Jan 1999 01:43:28 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 01:43:28 GMT On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:49:39 -0500, Jerome Chan <eviltofu@rocketmail.com> wrote: >>As much as I was very pleased with the DR2 version, I doubt that I'll >>stick around unless there is some solid reason to. If anything, I'll >>just pay the $1500 for WO and run it on NT. I'm perfectly happy selling >>NT boxes to my clients. > >My greatest fear is that they gut the BSD and POSIX layer from MacOS X in >order to differentiate between OS X and OS X Server. Apple has stated that OSX would have a POSIX layer. While the CLI might be an optional install, I doubt that it would be removed. How are they going to process /etc and boot the machine without /bin/sh? They would have to rip out a lot of Unix code; code that works and costs them nothing to keep, in order to do that.
From: Daren Scot Wilson <darenw@pipeline.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:12:12 +0000 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <369FAF2B.399F7EE@pipeline.com> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeaux wrote: > > Wanted: a stable O/S for Intel oriented computers which will obselete the > Microsoft Abominations. Wow, you sure cross-posted a lot of newsgroups, but you missed comp.os.be.advocacy. Your gripes are old hat to us unixers, but people should know about BeOS, too, since unix/linux/freebsd aren't for everyone. > > [End User License Agreement: By opening this message you show your > agreement to spend the rest of your life vigorously opposing the oppressive > Microsoft marketing philosophy.] Heck, I agreed to that long before I heard of this newsgroup! -- Daren Scot Wilson darenw@pipeline.com www.newcolor.com ---- "A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for" -- William Shedd
From: Daren Scot Wilson <darenw@pipeline.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:15:41 +0000 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <369FAFFD.C3F5E101@pipeline.com> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <369FAF2B.399F7EE@pipeline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daren Scot Wilson wrote: >... but you missed > comp.os.be.advocacy. ... Oops, my big chance to evangelize the masses, and i misspelled the newsgroup. It's comp.sys.be.advocacy -- Daren Scot Wilson darenw@pipeline.com www.newcolor.com ---- "A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for" -- William Shedd
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Message-ID: <jinx6568-1501992057060001@arc2a64.bf.sover.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> Organization: Airwindows NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:52:59 EDT Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:57:05 -0500 In article <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris Black) wrote: >I doesn't really matter to me when Windows 2000 ships as I already have >it installed and running smoothly on two of my machines. In the mean time >I also have NT4 workstation and server (both modern OSs, unlike the >MacOS) purring along as well. BTW MacOSX server was supposed to ship >about a year ago in the form of Rhapshody, so don't give me that "Apple >has been on track" gibberish. Copland anyone?? Ahh, looks like another >opportunity for a bet! Any welching macheads out there willing to take me >up on the bet that Win2000 will ship before OSX? >Chris Oh, they'll ship it whether it's ready or not. Hell, they'll ship it whether it works or not. That's sort of the problem with MS... and, by obligation and competitive pressure, with everybody _else_ who doesn't want to just 'lose' at these idiotic release-race games. Even Apple is rushing these days, to some extent. Chris Johnson @airwindows.com chrisj
From: "Brian C. Richardson" <debsguy@mindspring.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:54:01 -0500 Organization: Mindspring Message-ID: <369FF138.33BFCBEB@mindspring.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Black wrote: > In article <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... > > >> Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > > >> Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > > >> created. > > > > > > MacOS X server has been seeded to developers and is still semi-vapourous > > > as far as the market is concerned.. It's at least on par with what mac > > > advocates call vapor (NT 5 - Windows2000). MacOS X workstation is about a > > > year off and is still pure vapor. The original poster was comparing MacOS > > > X workstation to NT. I still want to know the answer to my question BTW. > > > > > LOL! MacOS X server is about a month from official release. When is your > > vaporous NT 5/Windoze 2000 shipping? Even Mac OS X will be shipping before > > that. Please, save us the vaporware speech. Apple has been back on track > > with their OS delivery schedules since Mac OS 7.6. Microsoft, OTH, never > > meets deadlines. > > I doesn't really matter to me when Windows 2000 ships as I already have > it installed and running smoothly on two of my machines. In the mean time > I also have NT4 workstation and server (both modern OSs, unlike the > MacOS) purring along as well. BTW MacOSX server was supposed to ship > about a year ago in the form of Rhapshody, so don't give me that "Apple > has been on track" gibberish. Copland anyone?? Ahh, looks like another > opportunity for a bet! Any welching macheads out there willing to take me > up on the bet that Win2000 will ship before OSX? > > Chris Let's see....which service pack makes NT4 Y2K compliant??? 'Modern Operating System' my ass! -- Brian Richardson Princeton Management Resources
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com> <369e8d22.0@news.provo.novell.com> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <369fad2f.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 15 Jan 1999 21:03:43 GMT "Kristopher Magnusson" <kmagnusson@novell.com> wrote: > >David Griffiths wrote in message <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com>... >>What do people perceive as the point of Gnustep? Is it to reproduce the >>look and feel and ease of use of NextStep, or is it to reproduce the >>development environment? > > >To create a free implementation of the OpenStep APIs. All else are >applications that consume GNUstep. All of the above
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:45:41 GMT Organization: KU Message-ID: <79BE9FC09DCEFCD0.FF2F19C94DCD1C65.F2AF164271A02827@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <jinx6568-1501992057060001@arc2a64.bf.sover.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Jan 15 20:49:52 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:57:05 -0500, jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > Oh, they'll ship it whether it's ready or not. Hell, they'll ship it You mean like shipping G3's before the modems are available? Or before the SCSI cards are bootable? -- Nathan A. Hughes The University Theatre, KU www.scenedesign.com
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: The Second Going of Steve? Date: 16 Jan 1999 02:55:36 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 I've been thinking... If a clever but reluctant CEO (who shall remain nameless) wanted to find a buyer for his old ailing technology company, wouldn't it be a good idea to follow a two-stage plan: Stage One: rekindle the old innovative spirit and strut the company's stuff, so to speak, to boost the inherent value. Stage Two: make a series to dumb-ass marketing decisions to depress the stock price and make it more tempting bait. If said CEO is still an iCEO after the shareholder's meeting, this is how the puzzle starts coming together, I think. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 15 Jan 1999 19:03:46 PST Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> In article <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net>, leperkuhn@earthlink.net (Jonathan Haddad) wrote: > > > > Lots of big companies, simply will not buy apple hardware at this point. > > Due to how their budgets are arranged tho, they ARE able to justify > > spending $1000 for macos software > > The problem is that Apple makes their money mostly from Hardware. Running > MacOS X on an Intel Platform would probably have a negitive effect. Less > apple comps sold. the fact is the public doesn't know the difference in > hardware and they mostly dont care. Its a shame really. its probably a > good move to not do OS X for intel. That is sooooo incredibly short sited and lame RIGHT NOW big companies absolutely cannot buy apple hardware... BUT, it they bought os server for intel, in the future it could change the mind of management, who would be swayed to buy APPLE HARDWARE as well. This market is not going to buy apple hardware now, NONE, not only would os x server for intel get apple a sell now (with Apple adding how much a hardware sale would get them, over and above what the mac version would cost) but in the future it could convert a whole bunch of business to apple hardware as well. Saying its a good move not to do intel is just incredibly ignorant.
Message-ID: <36A00145.6BD2E8DA@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan14090759@slave.doubleu.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 03:18:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:18:53 PDT Scott Hess wrote: > In article <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > croehrig@my-dejanews.com writes: > In article <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, > neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote: > > when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence > > exists. Mmalc has an excellent reputation, whereas you, Madam or > > Sir, did not even bother to give your name. > > > > Malcolm's interpretation makes a lot of sense, and I sure am glad > > to hear a voice of reason within all that FUD. > > I second that. It's unfortunate that such fine folks as Greg > and Scott are becoming the casualties and it's completely > understandable that they are bitter and disillusioned. I also > suspect that being bitter and disillusioned has some impact on > their ability to be positive about the future of this technology, > and that their perspectives might be somewhat biased. > > Of course, Mmalcolm's perspective is _also_ somewhat biased. [snip developer perspective] > Secondly, doesn't this apply equally well to WebObjects? Apple seems > to be having few problems selling and promoting WebObjects without > cannibalizing their hardware sales or MacOS development. Hell, I'd > even be willing to call our app a WebObjects deployment if that got > the job done (even though we have _zero_ WOF or EOF code in it). > You're definately onto something. This has a ring of truth. Our bi-YB/WO product got a real pause/tell us how that works from NeXT. YB is huge strategic leverage in WO _marketspace_ development. That story is Big and drives 'buy' decisions when MCCA development at stake. YB/WOF/EOF encapsulates Apple's leading edge custom(er) development in their WebObjects/Internet space. That chokepoint right where they can best capture highest and best return on Apple custom support and services. OK Scott, throw a browser interface on that app and you're off again :-) -r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5Mvp3.4r6@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jhendry@subsequent.com Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net> <77ok88$sso@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 03:43:50 GMT In <77ok88$sso@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Jonathan Hendry wrote: > I think there's a sense that Apple honestly means it when they say they > can't figure out how to sell it, but a suspicion that they'll just punt > and kill it rather than trying to sell it. "We might be wrong, so let's > just not bother" Now THAT is more like what I'm talking about, clear delineation between what Apple says and what you think it means. And on that note, I TOTALLY agree. But there's an easy answer, it's MacApp 5.0. The problem is I don't think the NeXT people know that's the easy answer, and they sure aren't going to listen to me. Nevertheless do a DejaNews search some time on the topic. You'll find all sorts of "this doesn't work" type messages, and you'll see the dream lists. The dream lists describe Yellow Box perfectly. The top asked for features were... a) cross plaftorm b) better multi-platform and international handling c) no reliance on MacOS damage like TextEdit. YB _as_ MacApp would be a perfect solution. However reading over the newer messages I see a clear "it's different, it must be bad" line from the people still using it. > The decision to kill Intel looks a bit like this. But you were there last year too, you saw Ernie's face light up when someone (Greg A.?) said "well then don't even bother with it then". I didn't want to say it (although I did talk about it a few times) but my money was on them not doing intel. Not that I like it. > would feel much, much more secure if Apple hadn't decided to kill > the Intel version so late in the game. Hmmm, yes, I think I'd agree with that. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:48:52 -0500 From: gbh@middlemarch.net Subject: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Heller Information Services Although Apple is selling OSX-S as a server, how large will the end user installed base be? If they are bought by educational intitutions or corporate firms, won't many of them net boot clusters of client Macs with OSX-S? This should make the number of end users capable of running YB apps much larger than the actual number of OSX-S licences sold. Granted it won't be as large as if Apple had sold the OS directly to consumers, but the plus side is that your apps won't need as much customer support because the end users will go to their conmpany's tech support rather than call the developer. Has anyone estimated how large the end user OSX-S installed base will be? Greg
From: Iggy Drougge <optimus@canit.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S Date: 16 Jan 99 02:38:19 +0100 Organization: CanIt Public Access, Stockholm Message-ID: <565.7685T158T970@canit.se> References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <MPG.1106fc6e96d94529989681@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 03:37:41 GMT Den 14-Jan-99 00:55:15 nedtecknade Andrei (in@out.com) följande: >iMac? *puke*. linux! or nt4, at least. Yes, NT4, and don't forget the whips and handcuffs. -- | optimus@canit.se / __ __ /\ __ __ __ __ _ | unniggy@algonet.se / /_/ /_/ /_/ . /_/ / /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /-' | StHJJ1WkS+++Sal+++!^Bun+ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ ŊŊ | Son++Tal+tNic++^E27Ay80 "You're pretty stupid for a commander! OK! Now I'll send you express to hell!" - Sixshot to Ultra Magnus, "TF: Headmasters"
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:32:18 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m3u2xtyzwd.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal Bob Canup <rcanup@hal-pc.org> writes: -> A rhetorical point here: People who won't show you their source code generally -> have something to hide. And that would be crappy source code. -- David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail "Hackers penetrate and ravage delicate, private, and publicly owned computer systems, infecting them with viruses and stealing materials for their own ends. These people, they're, they're terrorists." -- Secret Service Agent Richard Gill
From: leperkuhn@earthlink.net (Jonathan Haddad) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:10:28 -0500 References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> Organization: Haddad Enterprises Message-ID: <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> In article <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > In article <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net>, > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > > > Interestingly, the business market is showing some modest level of > > interest. A number of businesses have switched over to iMacs. Not a lot > > yet, but the iMac makes a good business solution for a lot of > > people--especially net booted from Mac OS X Server. > > I havent really heard anything about this (pro or con) so I cant really > comment, but I can say in the near term, Apple blow its chances for > widespread converts by killing os x server for intel. > > Lots of big companies, simply will not buy apple hardware at this point. > Due to how their budgets are arranged tho, they ARE able to justify > spending $1000 for macos software The problem is that Apple makes their money mostly from Hardware. Running MacOS X on an Intel Platform would probably have a negitive effect. Less apple comps sold. the fact is the public doesn't know the difference in hardware and they mostly dont care. Its a shame really. its probably a good move to not do OS X for intel.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Just waitin' 'n seein'... (Re: OS X Server price strategy) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5MFqK.ICt@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PzdBUE56vB4d@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:59:07 GMT In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PzdBUE56vB4d@localhost> taiQ wrote: > It would be interesting to know where GNUstep might be today if the > *step community - along with Linux folks - had decided to give it a > serious push those two years ago (while waiting Apple to release the > stuff "within 12 months"). Indeed, and while we're all predicting the future, can you tell me who to bet on for the world series next year? >GNOME started from near-zero later than > that and it seems to be doing nice progress already and might well be > reaching millions of desktop this spring. Sucky though it is. GNUStep and GNOME do not, IMHO, reside on the same level. > Java sprang from nowhere to > become the second-most popular API, and language It is neither. The 2nd most popular API is either OWL or MacOS depending on what numbers you believe (I choose neither). C is the most popular language, followed by C++, and Java is unlikely to even be third. Nevertheless you post clearly identifies hype as the real issue. > power. All the while *STEP (and Obj-C) were waiting for someone (Apple > in this case) to make things happen. And isn't it interesting that while we're waiting no one else has managed to catch up anyway? Maury
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:46 GMT Message-ID: <36a431cc.14625871@news.demon.co.uk> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-JeQ4ozV91uzW@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10 Jan 99 08:37:11 GMT, pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) wrote: >On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:05:19, nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony >Ord) thought aloud: > >> On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:06 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: >> >> >In article <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk>, >> > philh@vision25.demon.co.uk wrote: <snip of question about Linux off-line newsreaders> >For Linux? I haven't seen anything primetime-ready yet but I remember >seeing a project or two getting mentions at Freshmeat occasionally. I >can see an opportunity here for some enterprising Linux developer to >take this market by storm. The makers of Pronews, which some consider >superior to Agent, are apparently pondering whether to port Pronews to >Linux and/or release the source under some public license scheme but >again that's in the category of possible future scenarios. Even if they don't release the source, I'd certainly consider it, especially if they did a character based one. I'd certainly pay for it if it was worth the money. After all I did buy Agent. >A Linux, Mac and Windows-compatible Yellow Box-based offline news >reader (with the subscribtion data on a shared drive, even removable, >for painless cross-platform use) would've been quite attractive but I >don't see it happening under current circumstances. Why not? >Perhaps GNUstep >will pick up steam...? Perhaps. >Brgds, Regards Anthony -- =============================================================== |'All kids love log!' | | Ren & Stimpy | ===============================================================
From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Bryce Wong) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? Date: 16 Jan 1999 04:10:11 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Message-ID: <77p3f3$qh$1@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: >Stage One: rekindle the old innovative spirit and strut the company's >stuff, so to speak, to boost the inherent value. > >Stage Two: make a series to dumb-ass marketing decisions to depress the >stock price and make it more tempting bait. Gee, Stage One sounds like a hell of a lot of work just to sell a company, especially if you only own one share of it. Oh did I mention you're already rich from being the real CEO of another company which you do own shares of, and could have been spending all that energy on instead? And that's a pretty crappy implementation of Stage Two, tripling the stock price in the course of a year. >If said CEO is still an iCEO after the shareholder's meeting, this is >how the puzzle starts coming together, I think. I have to say this hypothetical CEO is doing a pretty bad job following your plan. Maybe he'll make up for it with a really crappy SuperBowl ad. Guess we'll wait and see... -- Erick
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dlp0h9.nqxd47om8jt3N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <jinx6568-1501992057060001@arc2a64.bf.sover.net> <79BE9FC09DCEFCD0.FF2F19C94DCD1C65.F2AF164271A02827@library-proxy.airnews.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:37:30 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:36:28 -0600 nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:57:05 -0500, jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) > wrote: > > > > Oh, they'll ship it whether it's ready or not. Hell, they'll ship it > > You mean like shipping G3's before the modems are available? Or > before the SCSI cards are bootable? What on earth are you babbling about Nate? Apple has modem cards available. A bootable SCSI card? Is that an invention of yours? I've only heard of bootable SCSI disks myself. -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:37:13 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:36:15 -0600 Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: > > > <snip> > > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > > >created. > > > > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, > > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not > > be in the first shipping release. Mac OS X is NOT vapor. I repeat, vaporware is software that is announced *BEFORE* it is created. Mac OS X DOES NOT fit that description. Not complete != does not exist. > <snip> > > > -Steve > > Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and > "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I > copyright it, or release it into public domain. Hmmm. > > Michael Monner They have names for that already, such as "developer's release," "preview release," and "beta." -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:38:00 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Message-ID: <stevehix-1501992038000001@192.168.1.10> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> Organization: Blackrock Systems In article <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca>, michael@tone.ca wrote: > "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: > > > <snip> > > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > > >created. > > > > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, > > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not > > be in the first shipping release. > > <snip> > > > -Steve > > Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and > "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I > copyright it, or release it into public domain. Hmmm. We've used jello, as in "cast in jello" for the same thing.
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:08:52 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77p6u7$cb9@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca> <77oeu3$b35@shelob.afs.com> <369FE57E.C71F9370@tone.ca> Michael wrote: >So, to make sure I understand, these are translators you are >using now in the OpenStep version of WriteUp, and they aren't >interested in porting them to OSXS? So in effect without them >you only have RTF access in OSXS? Correct, with two small exceptions: we also have translators we built in-house for the NEXTSTEP versions of WordPerfect and WriteNow (because these formats were popular at one time in our market, and MasterSoft didn't support them). >The way MacLink+ works now you can drag and drop one >or more documents onto its icon, and have them all converted >in one swell fwoop to your format of choice, and stored into your >folder of choice. So this would be a blue box operation, not >requiring you to bring up your word processor. All these RTF >documents would be sitting in one place to be accessed by >WriteUp. Not perfect, but not much worse than what I'm doing now. The biggest poblem with this process is that RTF is "lossy" compared to native formats. That tends to tick people off. I speak from hard-won experience here. Greg
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:11:59 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77p730$cbe@shelob.afs.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <77ogcg$41g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >> As much as I like Malcolm, [...] his responsbilities at P&L are oriented >> more to development than management. >> >Umm, this turns out not to be the case... Then please accept my most sincere apologies for the misstatement. Greg
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:09:55 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1601990009550001@ppp-60.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <jinx6568-1501992057060001@arc2a64.bf.sover.net> <79BE9FC09DCEFCD0.FF2F19C94DCD1C65.F2AF164271A02827@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dlp0h9.nqxd47om8jt3N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> In article <1dlp0h9.nqxd47om8jt3N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:57:05 -0500, jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) > > wrote: > > > > > > > Oh, they'll ship it whether it's ready or not. Hell, they'll ship it > > > > You mean like shipping G3's before the modems are available? Or > > before the SCSI cards are bootable? > > What on earth are you babbling about Nate? Apple has modem cards > available. A bootable SCSI card? Is that an invention of yours? I've > only heard of bootable SCSI disks myself. He means a SCSI card that you can hook a drive up to and boot from. He is correct in stating that the $50 card available at the AppleStore is not a bootable card, but the more expensive ones are, and there will be a firmware update available for the $50 card by the end of the month that makes it bootable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today. znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:26:07 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Message-ID: <kindall-1601990026070001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <jinx6568-1501992057060001@arc2a64.bf.sover.net> <79BE9FC09DCEFCD0.FF2F19C94DCD1C65.F2AF164271A02827@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dlp0h9.nqxd47om8jt3N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> In article <1dlp0h9.nqxd47om8jt3N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:57:05 -0500, jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) > > wrote: > > > > > Oh, they'll ship it whether it's ready or not. Hell, they'll ship it > > > > You mean like shipping G3's before the modems are available? Or > > before the SCSI cards are bootable? > > What on earth are you babbling about Nate? Apple has modem cards > available. A bootable SCSI card? Is that an invention of yours? I've > only heard of bootable SCSI disks myself. Drives connected to the $50 SCSI card are not bootable. And drives connected to most third-party SCSI cards are also not bootable in a G3, until the ROM on the card is upgraded, since the firmware of the new G3 is so radically different. Saying the SCSI card is not bootable seems a reasonable shorthand for this. -- Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book!
Message-ID: <36A01F6C.FD0892F6@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com> <369e8d22.0@news.provo.novell.com> <369F6E81.CA79A981@hursley.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:27:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:27:33 PDT David Griffiths wrote: > Kristopher Magnusson wrote: > > > >What do people perceive as the point of Gnustep? Is it to reproduce the > > >look and feel and ease of use of NextStep, or is it to reproduce the > > >development environment? > > Around 1993 NeXT was jettisoning ballast to stay afloat. GnuStep was a community reaction to losing the UI and a gesture on SJ's part to option a salvage yard in the event the community paranoia proved right. > > To create a free implementation of the OpenStep APIs. All else are > > applications that consume GNUstep. > Historically, GnuStep preceded OPENSTEP. I've lost touch over the years so you may be technically correct. > No, I understand the aim, what I meant was, where does the main value > lie for the people that want Gnustep? For instance, on a scale of 1 to > 10, if you had something that had the exact same look and feel of > NeXTStep but internally used completely different API's (eg based on > Java/Swing) how valuable would that be? 3 > And how valuable would be > something that conformed to the OpenStep API but had a completely > different look and feel (eg no services, look & feel of Windows NT etc). > 3, as truly state-of-the-art code is tweaked to NeXT internals... > Just trying to get a handle on what people want from Gnustep. I think > there are probably people who want the programming API's and there are > other people who want the old NeXTStep look and feel. Personally, if I > had something that behaved identically to NeXTStep (services and all) > but used completely new API's based on Java I'd be happy. > > Which would you rather lose, the interface or the implementation? > Personally, if the World spoke Java give me NeXTSTEP. I don't see a Life for NeXTSTEP unless there is One Java World Order. -r
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:05:34 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:03:29 -0600 Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote: > In article > <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net>, > leperkuhn@earthlink.net (Jonathan Haddad) wrote: > > > > > > > Lots of big companies, simply will not buy apple hardware at this point. > > > Due to how their budgets are arranged tho, they ARE able to justify > > > spending $1000 for macos software > > > > The problem is that Apple makes their money mostly from Hardware. Running > > MacOS X on an Intel Platform would probably have a negitive effect. Less > > apple comps sold. the fact is the public doesn't know the difference in > > hardware and they mostly dont care. Its a shame really. its probably a > > good move to not do OS X for intel. > > That is sooooo incredibly short sited and lame Yes, that describes your remarks below. > RIGHT NOW big companies absolutely cannot buy apple hardware... Why not? > BUT, it they bought os server for intel, in the future it could change the > mind of management, who would be swayed to buy APPLE HARDWARE as well. Why should they be swayed to buy Apple hardware if the software runs on the PC hardware that they have already? > This market is not going to buy apple hardware now, NONE, not only would Sure it is. > os x server for intel get apple a sell now (with Apple adding how much a > hardware sale would get them, over and above what the mac version would > cost) but in the future it could convert a whole bunch of business to > apple hardware as well. No, great Apple software on great Apple hardware will convert business to Apple hardware. To hell with Intel hardware. > Saying its a good move not to do intel is just incredibly ignorant. Spoken as a true Wintroll. Why don't you buy a PC, since you think it's such a good idea to have Intel hardware? Sell your Mac to someone who will appreciate it. -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Date: 16 Jan 1999 05:35:27 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77p8ev$of9$1@news.digifix.com> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> On 01/15/99, gbh@middlemarch.net wrote: >Although Apple is selling OSX-S as a server, how large >will the end user installed base be? If they are bought by >educational intitutions or corporate firms, won't many of >them net boot clusters of client Macs with OSX-S? No, because Mac OS X Server only allows you to netboot Mac OS 8.x machines. > This >should make the number of end users capable of running >YB apps much larger than the actual number of OSX-S >licences sold. Granted it won't be as large as if Apple >had sold the OS directly to consumers, but the plus side >is that your apps won't need as much customer support >because the end users will go to their conmpany's tech >support rather than call the developer. Has anyone >estimated how large the end user OSX-S installed base >will be? -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 16 Jan 1999 05:47:01 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> On 01/15/99, Alex Kac wrote: >In article <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > >>If that truly is the plan -- which I doubt -- there would be ways to do it >>without disenfranchising the people who have been nursing the dream. In >>fact, there are inexpensive ways to support such people enough to keep them >>in the market, keep them informed, and talking positively about the OS that >>purportedly represents the future. The fact that Apple has not made ONE >>effort in this regard tells me most of what I need to know. > >One thing that is telling is that Apple will NOT be providing copies of >MacOSXS to developers for free. It will be a limited version at a discount >at best. How is that telling? Apple doesn't provide AppleShare IP to Developers for free. As I've said in the past, the ADC programs are ripe for abuse. Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. A limited version (no Netbooting, no AppleShare and potentially no WebObjects) at a reasonable price is a fairly good compromise. Remember that unlike the vast majority of seeds and betas and upgrades, Apple has a rather substanatial per unit license (DPS) to pay. Of course I'd rather have it free, but I've never expected it as part of the $500 program.. the numbers just don't add up. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> Message-ID: <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:21:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:21:24 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne wrote:- > Spoken as a true Wintroll. Why don't you buy a PC, since you think it's > such a good idea to have Intel hardware? Sell your Mac to someone who > will appreciate it.- Personally I think ppc is a good architecture. My feelings on macos are no secret, it sucks. The problem with ppc is you back yourself into a corner. On intel you can choose from any of a dozen robust, fully mature, and proven stable unices. PPC offers a very limited choice of operating systems to choose from. Intel == more hardware, more software, more boxes already running the world's businesses and serving the world's networks. Screw windows, I'm talking unix. The only thing that sucks worse than windows is macos. While ppc is interesting, I just don't see that it's an attractive platform for real work. Explain to me why ppc is preferable to intel, alpha, or sparc, I don't think on a peformance or price basis you can make a good argument for it in comparison to any of the platforms I just mentioned. Look, I know you guys love your macs, great, more power to you. I'm not trying to piss you off, I just think you Apple guys don't get it when it comes to Apple's niche in the world. Macs have always been toys, and they always will be. Look at Apple's successful products before you respond critically. iMac? The new iMac-ified G series they showed at macworld? Yeah, ok, whatever. Love, Arrogant Unix Jerk :P
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:23:49 -0500 From: <gbh@middlemarch.net> To: Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base In-Reply-To: <77p8ev$of9$1@news.digifix.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901160121340.10444-100000@mail.his.com> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <77p8ev$of9$1@news.digifix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Heller Information Services > >Although Apple is selling OSX-S as a server, how large > >will the end user installed base be? If they are bought by > >educational intitutions or corporate firms, won't many of > >them net boot clusters of client Macs with OSX-S? > > No, because Mac OS X Server only allows you to netboot Mac OS > 8.x machines. Okay, I was under the impression that you could boot OSX-S clients off the server. Greg
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:13:00 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net> l{xwe38gJQI4JG^YzGa`#itr<2Zmf7sfIPf@$+oJ:50X=Xf9]r2~xD4k#/j`+dM!l_RZ O""T[]lqM0!"59Im#p4 In article <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. But again this still has no bearing > on the issue. An honest question: Why are you guys in such pain over whether or not OS X Server will be released on Intel when the fact is that it won't be released for EITHER platform after version 1.0? No further development, right? I'm not sure why they're releasing it at all as a commercial product, except as a stopgap measure to show off a fairly unified client-server model. Of course, the client will have to wait. But it appears that they're moving, much as Microsoft is ostensibly moving, to a single scalable OS. I tend to believe that Apple not only has a better foundation with which to start, but that they will have a better OS when it's all said and done. Trev
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:30:17 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1601990230180001@ppp-60.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net> <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net> In article <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote: > In article <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury > Markowitz) wrote: > > > Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. But again this still has no bearing > > on the issue. > > An honest question: Why are you guys in such pain over whether or not OS > X Server will be released on Intel when the fact is that it won't be > released for EITHER platform after version 1.0? No further development, > right? > > I'm not sure why they're releasing it at all as a commercial product, > except as a stopgap measure to show off a fairly unified client-server > model. Of course, the client will have to wait. But it appears that > they're moving, much as Microsoft is ostensibly moving, to a single > scalable OS. I tend to believe that Apple not only has a better > foundation with which to start, but that they will have a better OS when > it's all said and done. Apple is moving to a unified OS, but that that unified OS has much more in common with MacOS X Server than the current MacOS. MacOS X Workstation will be MacOS X Server with a more mac-like interface and the Carbon API's (both of which I assume future versions of Server will have as well). From my understanding Apple, just like Microsoft, while having a unified OS will ship both server and client versions, which are really only different in the software they include. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today. znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 16 Jan 1999 07:12:23 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77pe4n$q9e$1@news.digifix.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net> <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net> In-Reply-To: <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net> On 01/15/99, Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote: >In article <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury >Markowitz) wrote: > >> Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. But again this still has no bearing >> on the issue. > >An honest question: Why are you guys in such pain over whether or not OS >X Server will be released on Intel when the fact is that it won't be >released for EITHER platform after version 1.0? No further development, >right? > Mac OS X is based on Mac OS X Server. Anything that runs on Mac OS X Server via YB should be easily adaptable to Mac OS X. Now, with the AppleShare IP and NetBooting in the PPC version, that could indicate that it has a longer life. Intel is important for several reasons: - Apple promised it. Apple's new leadership must build trust with developers - YB developers bought hardware to develop on it. We need more time to write-down our costs - YB developers also planned some level of rollout on it.. this is more crucial. >I'm not sure why they're releasing it at all as a commercial product, >except as a stopgap measure to show off a fairly unified client-server >model. Of course, the client will have to wait. But it appears that >they're moving, much as Microsoft is ostensibly moving, to a single >scalable OS. I tend to believe that Apple not only has a better >foundation with which to start, but that they will have a better OS when >it's all said and done. > The client doesn't have to wait. Mac OS X Workstation could be a stripped down Mac OS X Server and fill the interim release of Mac OS X, giving Apple much more feedback about what users expect from Mac OS X, and are willing to accept as changes. >Trev > -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:47:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/ Message-ID: <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:36:15 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: >Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > >> "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: >> >> > <snip> >> > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. >> > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been >> > >created. >> > >> > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, >> > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not >> > be in the first shipping release. > >Mac OS X is NOT vapor. I repeat, vaporware is software that is >announced *BEFORE* it is created. Mac OS X DOES NOT fit that >description. Not complete != does not exist. You can repeat it until your are blue in the face, but it doesnt change the reality. If it isnt shipping, its vaporware. Otherwise a company could write one line of code, say its not complete, and it is suddenly "created". Until the product ships, there are no commitments as to features, or even that it will ship. We have seen this with Copland, which was killed outright, and MacOS X Server, which wont support either non-G3 PowerMacs or Intel boxes, which Apples early press releases indicated would be supported. As for anyone who believed it was going to be available commercially a year ago as was originally announced, they have been looking at a whole year of vapor, because vapor is all they have had to plan with and vapor is all they have to deploy. To the commercial consumer, it still doesnt exist. The fact that there has been so much debate here about whether it will even include BlueBox and whether the Intel port really has been dropped should highlight these points. >> <snip> >> >> > -Steve >> >> Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and >> "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I >> copyright it, or release it into public domain. Hmmm. >> >> Michael Monner > >They have names for that already, such as "developer's release," >"preview release," and "beta." > >-- >Remove the spamblock to reply to me. -Steve
From: mamax@mail.com <mamax@mail.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: test Date: 16 Jan 99 08:28:13 +-0300 Organization: Online Resource Center Message-ID: <8d50.771d.24e@trhwr> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 05:28:17 GMT content-length: 21 http://lba.da.ru/
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Message-ID: <tbrown-1601990259130001@d153.ecr.net> References: <77k3bp$ic3$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <F5KB0B.3rv@T-FCN.Net> <slrn79v0qo.5gg.mark@ns1.oaai.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:59:13 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:59:55 CDT In article <slrn79v0qo.5gg.mark@ns1.oaai.com>, mark@OAAI.COM wrote: >A deal with Microsoft maintains Apple's franchise -- the MacOS -- and allows >Apple to continue playing "Pepsi" to MS' "Coca-Cola." A deal with Sun is, >speaking generously, setting out into uncharted waters -- waters where >the MacOS franchise may one day lose all of its value altogether. A deal >with Microsoft has the potential of fortifying MacOS. A deal with Sun has the potential to make the Mac OS franchise loose it's value. A deal with MS would definately leave Apple living on the mercy of MS. No company seems to fare well at the mercy of MS. Pick: A puppet living at the whim of MS or the potential of being devalued by Sun. Even in the worst case of Sun, you still need a machine to run those Java programs on. Apple can still sell hw to run it on, and an OS to run advanced machines upon. Sun is making some ominous noises, but those recently were about letting someone else steer the course for Java (spec. the RT portions). I can understand why Sun didn't react favorably, but do wish they'd be more open. On the other hand, Sun has made some overtures of relaxing control a bit more and is even rumored to be considering making Solaris Open Source. Sun is also now actively working with the Linux comunity. Some good moves, some bad moves. Sun _could_ turn into a nasty MS-like entity. MS _is_ a nasty MS-entity. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 15 Jan 1999 02:47:00 GMT Organization: Hex.Net Superhighway, DFW Metroplex 817-329-3182 Message-ID: <77ma74$usm$20@blue.hex.net> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 02:47:00 GMT On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:45 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >Browne) wrote: >>On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT, Anthony Ord >><nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use >>>Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? >> >>Install Leafnode, and use whatever newsreader you like as an "offline" >>reader for your "offline" spool. >> >>Or install slrnpull, which is oriented towards slrn. >> >>There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a >>news browser, and vice versa. > >Alas, my transport details appear obtrusively on my phone bill every >quarter. >>That's called Careful Design. > >Unless the user (me) wants it there - and I do. In that case it is the >Wrong Design. Which means that it would be valuable to have an NNTP "proxy" that just retrieves certain header portions, and then goes back to get headers and bodies when users request them. This still can leave the transport details out of the news browser. Rumor has it that Leafnode has been modified by some so that it can do this. That makes that version of Leafnode a feasible option to let people use whatever news reader they like without transport issues having to intrude *too* much. -- Windows NT: Recommended by people who put buggy software in control of lethal weapons. cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Message-ID: <369FFD38.3C499F9A@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 03:01:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:01:37 PDT croehrig@my-dejanews.com wrote: > In article <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, > neuss.nos-pam@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam wrote: > > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > > >In <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > > >> Not at all. I've shown where some folks are seriously over-reacting, or > > >> completely misrepresenting what has been said. > > >> > > >> mmalc. > > > > > >You haven't shown squat, except to say, sorry, I can't talk about that, > > >but trust me, they're doing some sort of nebulous stuff that will turn > > >out to be wonderful in six months. > > > > > >Bah! Nobody is buying that load of tripe anymore. > > > > when Malcolm says that he has seen evidence, that evidence exists. > > Mmalc has an excellent reputation, whereas you, Madam or Sir, did > > not even bother to give your name. > > > > Malcolm's interpretation makes a lot of sense, and I sure am glad > > to hear a voice of reason within all that FUD. > > I second that. > [snip remarks re: other's gored oxen] > > I doesn't make sense to me that Apple wants to kill YB or > multi-architectures; it makes more sense that they are patiently harbouring a > long-term plan to bring them to fruition. Those ex-NeXTers at Apple aren't > all that different from you or me. I think they feel as passionate about > their technology as we do. After all, we're just using it: they created it. You, me and everyone else missed the defining moment... iMac sales. Had not iMac kicked in and then soared, the passionate dreamy technology promises of NeXT would've driven Apple logic. ex-NeXT'rs at Apple have seen the power of a Mac and they have gotten more than a little Macintosh religion. Few dreamy, long-term passionate technology arguments are going to compete with $152million profit. Mac logic is carryin' the day... Any technology proffer will need to respect Macintosh brand equity and source code investments going forward. Those proffers that aren't 'brand enhancing' or 'market leveraging' will have to profitably outperform the $$ entry point iMac established. And $152 million is indeed impressive and foreboding. Now Netinfo on Linux looks like a dead horse. Linux/YB/OPENSTEP a non-starter. YB/NT is a business case under re-evaluation. And Intel just became a pull strategy .vs. a technology push into that market. If any of these great dreamy technologies, don't get a business case and marketing support in the Industry... they won't see the light of Cupertino unless someone pays a threshold fee (~$152 million) to get it out of the vault. Somebody do the math here. Doubling of marketshare in 6mos. for Apple with just a hardware retooling? Streetcorner 'on-the-spot' financing. 1000's of new software titles... A new Server product now. Expect a thin client marketing strategy for Enterprise/Education. Let's see OpenGL, decent graphic subsystem (Rage) and the godfather of Gaming (id) moving onto the Mac brand. Is there any doubt in anyones mind that they'll muddy those messages up with Intel/NT/Solaris cross-compiles? What do you think the chances of Linux serving MacOS X's? What you can expect is follow-on Y2K trash talk solutons. Yep, those Mac's are gonna schlepp PC's out business' frontdoor on handtrucks. Something just shy of a mobile PC recycler/garbage truck look-alike. Apple's Y2K "deal of the millenia" will swapout more PC's for Mac's than anytime in recorded history. Right behind Y2K trashtalk will be Intel-lescense. Apple's attack on "Intel Inside". A wake up call to those sleepy heads who've come to depend on someone else for their alarm. The script hasn't been completed yet but it will star a FirstClass Hotel whose old, trusty Intel server is behind on cue'ing AM's calls to their Intel guests. Avis Hotel's MacOS X Server has young Mac guests meeting their app'ts and planes. Definately, a closing shot of FirstClass Hotel's Pentium Inside convention with 50y/o execs ought to get the message across. The story here is the consumer story... and all those nifty NeXT technologies must drive the story. If system-wide services just confuse the Mac paradigm and bring-up legacy NeXT visions, they're history. On the otherhand, if Apple integrates system-wide AS services with WebObjects, Apple controls the message in the consumer story. Which presages that exNeXT dreams must be woven into products like Dreamweaver. -r
From: Michael Giddings <giddings@genetics.utah.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: 3rd draft of Mini-FAQ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:37:17 -0700 Organization: University of Utah Message-ID: <369EC5FD.5E1A2964@genetics.utah.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1999 04:35:03 GMT Thanks to Scott Francis for the reorganization of this. Any other comments before I send it to Apple and we (hope|pray|sacrifice vegtables|perform pagan rites|wish|grovel) for answers? Currently I intend to send it to leadership@apple.com and to the devprograms address. Does anybody have ideas where else I might send it that there's some small probability it will be heard? - MG MINI FAQ QUESTIONS: 1. Shipping Dates 1.1 When will MacOSX/S ship? 1.2 When will YellowBox/NT ship? 1.3.1 Will there be Academic pricing? If so, what will it be? 1.3.2 Will Yellow Box programming be promoted in the ADC Student Program Membership? 1.3.3 Will Apple be actively promoting Yellow Box programming (whether in Objective C or Java) to computer science departments as a development environment for their coursework? 1.4 Will there be a "Workstation" version of MacOSX/S, aimed at desktop use (e.g. without WebObjects)? 1.5 What will be the cost of additional MacOSX/S clients on a network? Will there be site licensing deals? 1.6 Is OpenStep 4.2 available from Apple currently since MacOSX/S is not? Will it be in the future? 2. Hardware compatibility. 2.1.0 Will MacOSX/Server Run on iMacs? 2.1.1 Does anything need to be done to make MacOSX/Server run on iMacs? 2.2.0 Will MacOSX/Server run on a Powerbook 2.2.1 What is required to make MacOSX/Server run on Powerbook 2.2.2 Will there be support for sound on the Powerbook 2.2.3 Will there be support for sleep mode/power management on the Powerbook? 2.3 Will MacOSX/Server run on the forthcoming Consumer Portable? 2.4 Can MacOSX/Server be made to run on earlier PowerPC machines (9xxx, 8xxx and 7xxx series) machines? 2.5 What is the fate of MacOSX/Server for Intel? 2.6 Device Drivers 2.6.1 Will there be stable serial port support in CR1 of MacOSX/S? 2.6.2 What is the appropriate method for developing device drivers for hardware (DriverKit)? 2.6.3 Will Apple advocate to manufacturers the creation of device drivers for the MacOSX/Server driver architecture as well as MacOS driver architecture? 2.6.4 Where can I find a list of supported devices? 2.6.4.1 For Joysticks? 2.6.4.2 For Scanners? 2.6.4.3 For Speakers? 2.6.4.4 For Microphones? 2.6.4.5 For Musical Equipment? 2.6.4.6 For Digital Cameras? 2.6.4.7 Printers 2.6.5 Will Apple acknowledge drivers created by the developer community if not created by the original equipment manufacturer? 3. Blue Box 3.1 What is the status of the BlueBox? 3.2 Which OS version will it run? 4. Development Tools (Yellow Box) 4.1 Objective C 4.1.1 What is the status of Objective-C in YB? 4.1.2 Will developers be able to continue using it indefinitely, or will we be forced to move to Java at some point? 4.1.3 If so, when is the transition expected to occur? 4.1.4 Will Apple submit Objective C to a standards body so that outside sources can recommend changes or additions to the language (much like Sun Microsystems has done with Java)? 4.2 Support for YB developers 4.2.1 What is the best support mechanism for YB developers? Is it still the Apple developer program? 4.2.2 If so, will there be an improvement in the quantity/quality of information made available to YB developers? 4.3. Internet Programming Community 4.3.1 Will Apple continue to use BSD resources as the underlying Operating System? 4.3.2 Will MacOS/X Server products maintain release equivalence with stable BSD resources? 4.3.2 Will Apple return source code created by Apple but appropriate for the BSD community at large to the internet? 4.3.4 Will Apple release the Driver Kit to the BSD community? To the free unix community at large (read Linux)? 4.3.5 Is there potential of YB being available on other platforms (e.g. Linux, Solaris) in the future? (I doubt they'll answer this in any case, but it's a good question). 4.3.6 Are there any 3rd Party Frameworks, Toolkits, Palettes, Source Code available? 4.3.7 Are there any archive sites for Freeware, Shareware, OpenSource, GPL code? 4.4 YellowBox for NT 4.4.1 What is the status of YellowBox for windows NT? 4.4.2 What will theruntime license fee be? 5. EOF 5.1. Will the standalone YB include EOF? If not, will EOF be available as a separate product, and for how much? 5.2 Will EOF be included with MacOSX/S? 5.2 Will the all-java version be available separately from WebObjects? 6.0 IOKit 6.1 What is the status and timeframe of the new IOKit? Will it be included with CR1 of MacOSX/S? 6.2 Where can I get preview documentation? 7.0 Printing 7.1 Will all Postscript Printers work with MacOSX/Server? 7.2 How can I make a non-Postscript laser printer to work with MacOSX/Server? 7.3 How can I make a Inkjet printer work with MacOSX/Server? 8.0 User Environment 8.1 Will MacOSX/S allow user adjustment of the standard Macintosh look-and-feel, aka themes? 8.2 Will it be possible to develop other user interface schemes and have them be a drop-in replacement for the standard? 8.3 Will Apple be providing any alternate interfaces, such as the standard NeXT look and feel?
From: bchin@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:43:56 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77mkiq$f48$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> If Apple works out the licensing terms for the YB runtime for NT in the next month, will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for it? Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? Isn't the code close enough now that it's better to ship and make a few bucks this year than shelve it and make none? I'm already committed to MacOS X Server and would hate to lose PasteUp and WriteUp in the transition (after already losing SBook, PencilMeIn, and Quantrix). Quantrix hurts the most for me... there's really no substitute. ..Bill Chin In article <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > >If Jobs wanted to scrap YB there wouldn't be engineers working on it now. > > Not necessarily. We all agree it plays an important role in WebObjects, > which is selling well by all accounts. That justifies the engineers. It does > NOT translate into general support for YB as a preferred general purpose > development environment. > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: bchin@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 05:43:53 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> If Apple works out the licensing terms for the YB runtime for NT in the next month, will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for it? Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? Isn't the code close enough now that it's better to ship and make a few bucks this year than shelve it and make none? I'm already committed to MacOS X Server and would hate to lose PasteUp and WriteUp in the transition (after already losing SBook, PencilMeIn, and Quantrix). Quantrix hurts the most for me... there's really no substitute. ..Bill Chin In article <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > >If Jobs wanted to scrap YB there wouldn't be engineers working on it now. > > Not necessarily. We all agree it plays an important role in WebObjects, > which is selling well by all accounts. That justifies the engineers. It does > NOT translate into general support for YB as a preferred general purpose > development environment. > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: richk@nexus.carleton.ca (Richard Kulisz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 16 Jan 1999 10:32:17 GMT Organization: Nexus Project Message-ID: <77pprh$1jm$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <76udhh$9sd$1@hecate.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-User: richk In article <76udhh$9sd$1@hecate.umd.edu>, David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: >Liang-Shing Ng (lsn95r@mira.knirsch.de) wrote: >: David T. Wang ><davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: >: >Japan's farming system is very inefficient, (and Americans, responsible >: >for setting is up, are partly to blame apparently) Japan has had a >: Yet again, American can't seem to think of alternative paradigm to >: "efficiency, capitalism, efficiancy, capitalism". If you actually care about efficiency then Japanese farming is very efficient. Small farms are the best way to achieve the maximum possible production of agricultural products for a given land area. The reason Japanese rice is so expensive is because of the low unemployment in Japan, but that is also efficient; an efficient use of the available labour supply. So under any realistic definition of efficiency, Japan is very efficient. What is the economic definition of efficiency? Well, if you crack open any first year economics textbook then it will tell you and you will know that a system is efficient when it maximizes the number of trades between buyers (who may not want to buy the cheap junk you produced) and sellers (who may not want to sell their heirlooms) naturally passing by middlemen who reap huge profits. People without brain damage will naturally ask themselves "hey, what the hell are economists *thinking*?!" Well, the answer to that my friends is that this definition of efficiency allows economists to conclude that capitalism is efficient, and since it has no other virtue, then rejecting this definition leads one to reject capitalism. Unlike say communism (not to be confused with the Soviets) which has the virtue of defining Justice. Or socialism which defines What People Wnat. Or anarchism which maximizes Freedom. Or technocracy which does the Best Thing Possible. Or even /fascism/ which is Effective. Frankly, the only useless ideology under the sun is capitalism and that's because its only utility lies in justifying the actions of self-serving billionaires. The high price of rice in japan is only a worry to those same billionaires. -- Why are Japanese corporations obsessed with market share and unconcerned about profits? Because market share means jobs for Japanese, and mere shareholders, who did little or nothing to finance or run the business, have no right to criticize the management or ask for dividends. Well-known Japanese companies routinely hire gangsters to rough up shareholders who ask embarrassing questions at company meetings. -- Social Contradictions of Japanese Capitalism
From: c@c.com (Chris Black) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:31:31 -0700 References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> Organization: Tridim Message-ID: <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> In article <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net says... > Chris Black <c@c.com> wrote: > > > In article <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, > > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are > > > > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: > > > > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that > > > > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. > > > > > > > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. > > > > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT > > > > > > I have nothing against Intergraph, but what does big business have to do > > > with the graphics market? NT has made inroads on this market mostly because > > > of NT has a better server offering than Apple. With Mac OS X server coupled > > > with Mac OS X, this is likely to swing the other way. NT has it's > > > advantages, but so does Mac OS. NT's advantages are mostly with servers, > > > etc. Further, some customers are requiring the buzzwords (PMT, protected > > > memory, etc.) Whereas the Macs advantages are with graphics (i.e. system > > > level color sync, etc.) Once MacOS X comes out, NT looses whatever > > > advantage it once had. > > > > Could you please expand on the "etc." part in your statement about Mac > > graphic superiority. Exactly what are the Mac's advantages at graphics > > over a PC? While you're at it, please tell me exactly how the > > currently vaporous MacOS X (or even the shipping one that's still about a > > year off) will negate NT's advantage. > > > > Chris. > > If you want to ask what advantages the Mac has over a PC, don't include > Intergraph. Intergraph is a workstation, not a PC. Sure, it runs NT, > and it uses an Intel processor. But none of the rest of its > architecture is "PC." > > The Intergraph graphics advantage comes from its proprietary, expensive > graphics hardware, not from NT or its Intel processor. > > Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > created. MacOS X server has been seeded to developers and is still semi-vapourous as far as the market is concerned.. It's at least on par with what mac advocates call vapor (NT 5 - Windows2000). MacOS X workstation is about a year off and is still pure vapor. The original poster was comparing MacOS X workstation to NT. I still want to know the answer to my question BTW. Chris
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:01:18 -0500 From: <gbh@middlemarch.net> Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901160121340.10444-100000@mail.his.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901160736090.4356-100000@mail.his.com> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <77p8ev$of9$1@news.digifix.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901160121340.10444-100000@mail.his.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Heller Information Services > > No, because Mac OS X Server only allows you to netboot Mac OS > > 8.x machines. Could this be addressed by Apple releasing OSX-S on two CDs, a Server and a Client CD, but sell them only as a set--not separately. The license would allow deployment of the Server CD on only one machine and allow deployment of the Client CD on a limited number of machines, or charge a per seat fee similar in price to OS 8.x for deployment of each client. This would discourage individual consumers from purchasing while encouraging system administrators to purchase it. They would then get a limited end-user installed base that has their own tech support. Greg
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:11:39 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p117.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36A0900B.7528DCB3@tone.ca> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <stevehix-1501992038000001@192.168.1.10> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 13:10:48 GMT Steve Hix wrote: > > Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and > > "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I > > copyright it, or release it into public domain. Hmmm. > > We've used jello, as in "cast in jello" for the same thing. I love it; can I use it? Michael Monner
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:16:53 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1601990816540001@elk57.dol.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> In article <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris Black) wrote: > In article <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... > > >> Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > > >> Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > > >> created. > > > > > > MacOS X server has been seeded to developers and is still semi-vapourous > > > as far as the market is concerned.. It's at least on par with what mac > > > advocates call vapor (NT 5 - Windows2000). MacOS X workstation is about a > > > year off and is still pure vapor. The original poster was comparing MacOS > > > X workstation to NT. I still want to know the answer to my question BTW. > > > > > LOL! MacOS X server is about a month from official release. When is your > > vaporous NT 5/Windoze 2000 shipping? Even Mac OS X will be shipping before > > that. Please, save us the vaporware speech. Apple has been back on track > > with their OS delivery schedules since Mac OS 7.6. Microsoft, OTH, never > > meets deadlines. > > I doesn't really matter to me when Windows 2000 ships as I already have > it installed and running smoothly on two of my machines. In the mean time LOL. You're forgeting that the beta license will expire soon and you'll need to reinstall everything. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Devil's Advocacy Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:11:23 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77q6m7$f06$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77l0mv$48m@papoose.quick.com> In article <77l0mv$48m@papoose.quick.com>, jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) wrote: > I wish I knew what mmalcom has been refering to. > Largely his belief that from the marketing perspective Apple sees it pretty much as you have just outlined in your post. Prepare yourself now to be branded a heretic. Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dlptkd.x3mo65b0cpvlN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1601990816540001@elk57.dol.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:37:36 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:36:47 -0600 Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > In article <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris > Black) wrote: > [snip] > You're forgeting that the beta license will expire soon and you'll need to > reinstall everything. When did Wintrolls start worrying about license terms? -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:37:33 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:36:40 -0600 Stephen E. Halpin <seh@quadrizen.com> wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:36:15 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin > E. Thorne) wrote: > > >Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > > > >> "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: > >> > >> > <snip> > >> > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > >> > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > >> > >created. > >> > > >> > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, > >> > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not > >> > be in the first shipping release. > > > >Mac OS X is NOT vapor. I repeat, vaporware is software that is > >announced *BEFORE* it is created. Mac OS X DOES NOT fit that > >description. Not complete != does not exist. > > You can repeat it until your are blue in the face, but it doesnt > change the reality. If it isnt shipping, its vaporware. Wrong. If it doesn't exist it's vaporware. > Otherwise > a company could write one line of code, say its not complete, and > it is suddenly "created". There is a lot more than one line of code in Rhapsody. That's a silly example. > Until the product ships, there are no > commitments as to features, or even that it will ship. AFAIK it *did* ship to developers. > We have > seen this with Copland, Much of Copland has been shipped as Mac OS upgrades. Copland was never used to freeze the Mac market the way that M$ has frozen markets with their true vaporware: products that weren't even conceived until a competitor shipped the equivalent. > which was killed outright, and MacOS X Server, > which wont support either non-G3 PowerMacs or Intel boxes, which That doesn't make it vapor. > Apples early press releases indicated would be supported. As for > anyone who believed it was going to be available commercially a > year ago as was originally announced, they have been looking at a > whole year of vapor, because vapor is all they have had to plan > with and vapor is all they have to deploy. They have been waiting for the product to be released. If they were waiting for vapor, they'd be waiting for a product that Apple hasn't even started. There have been releases to developers, so they've had more than just vapor to work with. > To the commercial > consumer, it still doesnt exist. That's still not the definition of vaporware. I've noticed the tendency of some people to creatively redefine words to make it look as if everyone does the same things Microsoft does. > The fact that there has been so > much debate here about whether it will even include BlueBox and > whether the Intel port really has been dropped should highlight > these points. That just highlights how many people gossip about things they have no direct knowledge of. > >> <snip> > >> > >> > -Steve > >> > >> Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and > >> "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I > >> copyright it, or release it into public domain. Hmmm. > >> > >> Michael Monner > > > >They have names for that already, such as "developer's release," > >"preview release," and "beta." > > > >-- > >Remove the spamblock to reply to me. > > -Steve -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Another YB/Openstep person (me) tosses in towel Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:11:35 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?= Message-ID: <1dlmvap.13o4wj3jq685aN@mp-213-123.daxnet.no> References: <773fhg$dig$3@coward.cc.utah.edu> <369C9538.8DEECD92@hursley.ibm.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 David Griffiths <dgriff@hursley.ibm.com> wrote: > Michael Giddings wrote: > > > A last note: > > If we all spent 1/10th the amount of the cost of MacOSX/Server in support > > of Gnustep(time or money), it would move along much more quickly. > > What do people perceive as the point of Gnustep? Is it to reproduce the > look and feel and ease of use of NextStep, or is it to reproduce the > development environment? The goal is to do both. The interface (look and feel) will be similar to NeXTSTEP 3.X, and the development environment will be more like OPENSTEP 4.X, with some minor differences of implementation. There are even clones of IB and PB on the way. -- Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 16 Jan 1999 15:01:22 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Message-ID: <77q9k2$8fb$1@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> In article <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net>, Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote: >In article ><leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net>, >leperkuhn@earthlink.net (Jonathan Haddad) wrote: > >> > >> > Lots of big companies, simply will not buy apple hardware at this point. >> > Due to how their budgets are arranged tho, they ARE able to justify >> > spending $1000 for macos software >> >> The problem is that Apple makes their money mostly from Hardware. Running >> MacOS X on an Intel Platform would probably have a negitive effect. Less >> apple comps sold. the fact is the public doesn't know the difference in >> hardware and they mostly dont care. Its a shame really. its probably a >> good move to not do OS X for intel. > >That is sooooo incredibly short sited and lame >RIGHT NOW big companies absolutely cannot buy apple hardware... >BUT, it they bought os server for intel, in the future it could change the >mind of management, who would be swayed to buy APPLE HARDWARE as well. You may be right. Maybe Apple should keep OS X Consumer on PowerPC computers (or even just on Macs). But OS X Server should probably be released for PowerPC, Intel, SPARC, and as many other machines as they can put it on. I can't imagine Apple makes a lot of money selling servers, compared to the money they make selling workstations and home computers. But anything that gets an Apple OS and the Apple name into businesses would probably help their sales of personal computers. Then see about moving the consumer OS to other hardware. Funny thing, though, is Apple is a hardware company, so they really can't give up control of the hardware. But if they try to move into software, putting out some games and simulators and productivity apps, developers are going to complain that Apple is driving them out of business. But a stroll through a software store shows Microsoft games, Microsoft simulators, Microsoft productivity apps, and no shortage of other companies developing for Windows. It hurts Apple to be the sole supplier of the hardware, but their transition to a software company would be mighty painful. >This market is not going to buy apple hardware now, NONE, not only would >os x server for intel get apple a sell now (with Apple adding how much a >hardware sale would get them, over and above what the mac version would >cost) but in the future it could convert a whole bunch of business to >apple hardware as well. You may be overestimating how many Apple computers will be bought to connect to an Apple server, when an Intel machine running the same OS can connect to the same server and run the same apps just fine. If Apple goes cross-platform, it would have to be because they think they can thrive as primarily a software company. Or a software-and-peripheral company. -- "Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 16 Jan 1999 15:12:13 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Message-ID: <77qa8d$d98$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: >In <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne wrote:- >> Spoken as a true Wintroll. Why don't you buy a PC, since you think it's >> such a good idea to have Intel hardware? Sell your Mac to someone who >> will appreciate it.- > >Personally I think ppc is a good architecture. My feelings on macos are no >secret, it sucks. The problem with ppc is you back yourself into a corner. >On intel you can choose from any of a dozen robust, fully mature, and proven >stable unices. PPC offers a very limited choice of operating systems to >choose from. Intel == more hardware, more software, more boxes already >running the world's businesses and serving the world's networks. Screw >windows, I'm talking unix. The only thing that sucks worse than windows is >macos. While ppc is interesting, I just don't see that it's an attractive >platform for real work. Explain to me why ppc is preferable to intel, alpha, >or sparc, I don't think on a peformance or price basis you can make a good >argument for it in comparison to any of the platforms I just mentioned. Sadly, there's a lot of truth to what you say. The argument to go with Intel (or compatibles) often centers around price, availability, flexibility, multiple vendors, but rarely quality. Similarly, the argument for Windows invariably involves support and availability of software. Buzzword compliance is thrown in the face of Mac advocacates, but a fool would argue Windows has better buzzword compliance than a good Unix. On the other hand, going with Alpha or SPARC is going to back you into the same corner that a Mac will, since a SPARC binary won't exactly run on your new Intel box, and you don't even have an emulation option. Maybe OS X will make a Mac just another Unix machine (but with a particularly nice Unix), and then you can use it. With LinuxPPC, any Mac user can enter the Unix world right now. I wouldn't get a Mac just to run LinuxPPC, but I might get an RS/6000 to run LinuxPPC (or AIX). Why would you prefer a SPARC to an RS/6000? -- "Besides, it doesn't take much creativity or courage to figure out that something which reads 'Danger: Flammable' on the label might be fun to fool about with." -- Joris van Dorp
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77qa8d$d98$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <Eo2o2.4477$xq4.1075@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:39:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:39:16 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77qa8d$d98$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote:- > On the other hand, going with Alpha or SPARC is going to back you into the > same corner that a Mac will, since a SPARC binary won't exactly run on > your new Intel box, and you don't even have an emulation option. Maybe OS > X will make a Mac just another Unix machine (but with a particularly nice > Unix), and then you can use it. With LinuxPPC, any Mac user can enter the > Unix world right now. I wouldn't get a Mac just to run LinuxPPC, but I > might get an RS/6000 to run LinuxPPC (or AIX). Why would you prefer a > SPARC to an RS/6000?- Solaris has the best smp. Sparcs ain't cheap, but Solaris is proven to be trustworthy to big business. Sun got a nice piece of press when Microsoft purchased Hotmail, and after switching everything over to NT, found that NT just wasn't up to the task and switched to Solaris. That had to kill Gates, and Sun had to love every minute. Solaris offers a standard SVR4 environment and all the benefits that brings with it, plus the best smp code of ANY os on the planet. Sun occupies the same server/workstation niche they always have, and because of the price of Sun hardware still isn't really in direct competition with intel or Apple. Sun's main competition comes less from HP and Digital and the rest of their traditional competitors, but increasingly from the open source os'es like FreeBSD and linux.
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:47:28 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Mac OS X - a diamond Message-ID: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Organization: Web Information Solutions Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Taken from the MacOSX-Talk mailing list: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: YellowBox and Java Steven W. Schuldt (sschuldt@mindspring.com) Mon, 11 Jan 1999 01:20:11 -0800 Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ] Next message: jbarbosa: "Re: YellowBox and Java" Previous message: Bruce Fancher: "RE: BOF meeting. It is not all bad!" Maybe in reply to: Mark F. Murphy: "YellowBox and Java" Next in thread: jbarbosa: "Re: YellowBox and Java" Mark F. Murphy Wrote: > >I was getting slammed on this list for freaking out when Carbon was >announced and YB looked like it was getting depreciated. I pointed to >Apple's past broken promises. > Yep, yep. Mmm hmm. Me too. So I decided to get a job with them. Go figure. Now I don't speak for Apple, or SJ or anything or anyone at all except myself here but this is the way I look at it: Apple is shipping OPENSTEP 5.0 (aka MacOSX Server) in Feb. It has been turned from the mutant NextStep/OpenStep hybrid neglected rusty shed of an OS that was OPENSTEP 4.2 into a smoke-sucking, fire-fucking godhead OS that runs atop BSD 4.4 on translucent 400Mhz RISC boxes. The price has gone up by $200, but in return they threw in the dev environment ($4995), WebObjects ($1499), the worlds most kick-ass MacOS virtual machine and about a million other improvements and niceties. Additionally, the UI has been made over to look like MacOS. Java? It is there, big time, but you only have to pretend to care about that. To me, as an OpenStep and WOF developer, this looks like virgin, pristine, undeveloped land stretching on for miles and miles under a blueberry sky. Months ago I implored "Put it in a box. Put your name on the box. Ship the box. We'll do the rest.". Here finally is The Box - and it is gooooood. The marketing goons and their boot-licking strategies can get stuffed, I know exactly what this thing is and what it can do. Why am I unable to get worked up about the "unresolved issues", about this dreaded "future" we're all so worried about? Because I am happy _right now_. This is more or less the computer and OS I imagined when the merger happened. As far as my computing life is concerned, the rest is gravy. What could I do if the runtime issues et al were worked out, the world dumped Java for ObjC, my Yellow app sold a trillion copies and I were rich beyond imagining? Buy more copies of it? So take this hint. MacOSX Server on an ice-white and blue G3 make the best computer you've ever touched. Here at last is the thing you prayed for every miserable hour spent holding NT's hand as it convulsed, vomiting and choking on its own excrement in front of you. Here again is the operating system that cannot be killed. Microsoft and Sun don't know it yet but they are face to face with the bloody-minded revenge of NEXTSTEP. NEXTSTEP reborn and hardened into diamond. --- ______________________________________ Steven W. Schuldt Apple Enterprise Software Consulting Engineer schuldt@apple.com "Innovation takes an unreasonable man." - Jonathan Ive, VP Industrial Design Apple Computer ______________________________________ Jakob Peterhänsel IT System Konsulent Tingberg Consult A/S Email: jakob@tingberg.dk ICQ: 3292320 -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:44:44 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial05p18.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36A0B3E8.9BCE8759@tone.ca> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <369F91D5.D7CA0125@tone.ca> <77o408$a2n@shelob.afs.com> <369FAC0B.D3B299ED@tone.ca> <77oeu3$b35@shelob.afs.com> <369FE57E.C71F9370@tone.ca> <77p6u7$cb9@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 15:44:23 GMT To: greg@afs.com Greg Anderson wrote: > <snip> > > The biggest poblem with this process is that RTF is "lossy" compared to > native formats. That tends to tick people off. I speak from hard-won > experience here. > > Greg I can't disagree with you there. However Mac users who are going to give WriteUp and PasteUp a shot are going to do so in hopes of getting products that fulfill their needs, but on a more stable OS. If these products end up being better than Word or Pagemaker or Quark, so much the better, but they won't be expecting this, and it won't be their initial rationale. There might be a one time conversion of documents, but you would expect that not to be flawless. In a dtp environment like mine the main interest will be PasteUp. I would expect to use WriteUp to do the proofing and apply the styles to the articles, in expectation that PasteUp would import the styling information flawlessly from WriteUp. The articles come mostly from PC word processors. I would continue to use MacLink+ on one of the other Macs or the blue box, converting these to RTF. Any loss of formatting would not be of concern because I apply my own formatting anyway. I am actually expecting things to go a lot smoother overall when I get your software in February (hope springs eternal). The other aspect is ads done by customers on their word processors and submitted electronically. This is the bane of my existence, because translators between word processors simply don't handle the detailed formatting at the best of times, and I usually have to rebuild the ad, after asking the client to fax me what it should look like. For these I would expect to do what I'm doing now: convert these to Word in MacOS, fix them and save as eps, or import the text into Illustrator and rebuild them. If the OSXS apps can provide something better, great. By the way, a thought just occurred to me, maybe the MacLink+ people (Dataviz) would be interested in buying the MasterSoft stuff. Maybe a suggestion is in order. Michael Monner
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:51:20 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > In <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne wrote:- > > Spoken as a true Wintroll. Why don't you buy a PC, since you think it's > > such a good idea to have Intel hardware? Sell your Mac to someone who > > will appreciate it.- > > Personally I think ppc is a good architecture. My feelings on macos are no > secret, it sucks. The problem with ppc is you back yourself into a corner. > On intel you can choose from any of a dozen robust, fully mature, and proven > stable unices. PPC offers a very limited choice of operating systems to > choose from. Intel == more hardware, more software, more boxes already > running the world's businesses and serving the world's networks. Screw > windows, I'm talking unix. The only thing that sucks worse than windows is > macos. While ppc is interesting, I just don't see that it's an attractive > platform for real work. Explain to me why ppc is preferable to intel, alpha, > or sparc, I don't think on a peformance or price basis you can make a good > argument for it in comparison to any of the platforms I just mentioned. > Look, I know you guys love your macs, great, more power to you. I'm not > trying to piss you off, I just think you Apple guys don't get it when it > comes to Apple's niche in the world. Macs have always been toys, and they > always will be. Look at Apple's successful products before you respond > critically. iMac? The new iMac-ified G series they showed at macworld? > Yeah, ok, whatever. > > Love, > Arrogant Unix Jerk :P Gee - I guess you dont about Linux and the other Unix flavors that run on PPC, do you? Oh, the MacOS doesnt suck. Its great. It was just meant for another audience than Unix was... but stayed tuned... the complexities, advantages and buzzwords of Unix are coming to a Mac near you.\
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> Message-ID: <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:55:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:55:17 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> Rick wrote:- > Gee - I guess you dont about Linux and the other Unix flavors that run > on PPC, do you?- Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) and ppclinux, name one flavor of unix that has a fully functional ppc port. Perhaps NetBSD, but I can't think of any others.
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:18:06 +0100 Organization: University of Bonn, Germany Message-ID: <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 Hello, Scott! Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > As I've said in the past, the ADC programs are ripe for abuse. I don't want Mac OS <10 crap CDs. I don't want a full strength AppleShare Server. I don't want a NetBoot server, I want a Dev./Client/standalone machine with serial/ppp support. I'm sure I'm not the only small developer relying on that. Call it "Prelude to Mac OS X", or whatever. I waited so damned long already since DR2. It really drives me crazy to work around defects in DR2 that have been solved /a long time ago/. > Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus > all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. I understand that Apple wants to deliver a stripped down version of MXS to prevent abuse. I don't understand that they will charge again for that. I also don't understand that they don't communicate terms for educational development licenses (this has a long tradition at least here in germany - it's almost a secret). Dirk -- http://theisen.home.pages.de/
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 16 Jan 1999 16:24:11 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77qefb$1el$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369FFD38.3C499F9A@yahoo.com> Rex Riley <rr6013.yahoo.com> wrote: : You, me and everyone else missed the defining moment... iMac sales. Had : not iMac kicked in and then soared, the passionate dreamy technology : promises of NeXT would've driven Apple logic. I don't think I was the first to comment, but on 1998/10/02 I did post: "That is of course the second part of the story. In 1996 everybody thought Apple needed preemptive multitasking to regain market trust. Who would have guessed that all they needed was a little translucent plastic. Perhaps Steve Jobs. If he knew that he didn't need a new OS, and that all he needed was a return to style and an intangible Appleness, then he called it right. If the factories are humming and inventories aren't piling up, who needs a new OS this year?" John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 16 Jan 1999 16:29:35 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus : all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. Anyone should be welcome at $500 a head. Anyone who joins the developer ranks becomes part of the story. "Five thousand new developers ... MacOS X a raging success..." Anything else is penny wise and pound foolish. There is only one company in the PC softare industry which can affort to milk developers, and Apple isn't it. John
From: eric@EMIEng.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> Message-ID: <36a0b7c3.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> Date: 16 Jan 99 16:01:07 GMT Donald R. McGregor wrote: > The major win for categories is adding new methods to existing > system classes. You can't do that with inner classes unless you > modify the source of the system classes. > > This is just an amazingly useful capability. Suppose you need > the classic Just One More Method in String. You're getting > Strings back from all the umpteen million Java API calls that > return strings, and you want a String with just a little more > capability. You can subclass String to get what you want... Ooh, bad example! The String class *can't* be subclassed, it's a final class. Just another reason why Java is so lackluster. Eric Marshall EMI Software Engineering
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 16 Jan 1999 16:49:01 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77qftt$jbf$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> Jonathan Haddad <leperkuhn@earthlink.net> wrote: : The problem is that Apple makes their money mostly from Hardware. Running : MacOS X on an Intel Platform would probably have a negitive effect. Less : apple comps sold. the fact is the public doesn't know the difference in : hardware and they mostly dont care. Its a shame really. its probably a : good move to not do OS X for intel. I pointed out in another post that Sun still gives away personal copies of Solaris for Intel(*) ... while they make all their money from Sparc hardware. Funny how the two companies can be in a similar spot and have such different plans: Sun: We make our money on custom hardware. Apple: We make our money on custom hardware. Sun: We better give away an x86 OS to attract attention. Apple: We better not sell an x86 OS, it would bleed sales. John * - http://www.sun.com/solaris/freesolaris.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:52:37 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:51:46 -0600 Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > In <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne wrote:- > > Spoken as a true Wintroll. Why don't you buy a PC, since you think it's > > such a good idea to have Intel hardware? Sell your Mac to someone who > > will appreciate it.- > > Personally I think ppc is a good architecture. You contradict yourself below. How can something that you claim can't be used for "real work" be a "good architecture?" > My feelings on macos are no > secret, it sucks. The problem with ppc is you back yourself into a corner. I chose a Mac because I want a Mac. I didn't "back myself into a corner." People with PCs need lots of options because they quickly become dissatisfied with any one of them. The mistakenly think the same is true of the Mac, and so they want the same "options" on it that the PC has. > On intel you can choose from any of a dozen robust, fully mature, and proven > stable unices. PPC offers a very limited choice of operating systems to > choose from. Intel == more hardware, more software, more boxes already > running the world's businesses and serving the world's networks. Screw > windows, I'm talking unix. The only thing that sucks worse than windows is > macos. While ppc is interesting, I just don't see that it's an attractive > platform for real work. Then you should spend some time talking to the people who use it for real work. > Explain to me why ppc is preferable to intel, alpha, > or sparc, I don't think on a peformance or price basis you can make a good > argument for it in comparison to any of the platforms I just mentioned. Wow! Explain the advantages over three different processors at once? You don't expect much, do you? ;) It all depends on what you use it for. The Alpha has the fastest clock speed, and can run Unix and NT, yet it is not the dominate processor. Perhaps you'd like to explain why? > Look, I know you guys love your macs, great, more power to you. I'm not > trying to piss you off, I just think you Apple guys don't get it when it > comes to Apple's niche in the world. Macs have always been toys, and they > always will be. If you don't want to piss people off, you shouldn't talk like a narrow minded bigot. The education, publishing, and film industries have been using Macs for decades. Macs are not "toys" even if you apparently didn't notice them until the iMac was introduced. > Look at Apple's successful products before you respond > critically. iMac? The new iMac-ified G series they showed at macworld? > Yeah, ok, whatever. > > Love, > Arrogant Unix Jerk :P The PowerPC is also in IBM RS6000 workstations, IBM AS/400 minicomputers, and in AIX servers. The IBM "Deep Blue" chess playing computer was built from a few hundred PowerPC chips. Your Unix choices on the Mac include MachTen, AIX, LinuxPPC, and MkLinux. LinuxPPC will run on both PowerMacs and the IBM RS6000. -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: LBohan@dbc.spam_less..com (Larry D Bohan, Jr) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:59:57 GMT Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service Message-ID: <36a0c424.586694682@199.217.9.201> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <369d8763$0$16668@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:48:52 -0800, "Boris" <borisspamno@pleasemovil.com> wrote: >VAX/VMS source code was never made public. VMS source *listings* have always been available, for about the price of DevStudio nowadays. they used to ship w/ the OS binaries (on microfiche) some years/releases ago. and VMS source code itself, can be had for about $10K USD, i believe. > OS 3x0 wasn't either. And those are hardwarecompanies. >As for software companies (Microsoft being one of them), they almost never make source >code available to public. Can you get source code for Oracle, Informix, Sybase dbms? No, >you can't. > >Boris >
Message-ID: <36A0CB82.2AEB563B@nstar.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:25:22 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <77qf47$jbf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jensen wrote: > Lest we forget, Solaris is still free: > > http://www.sun.com/solaris/freesolaris.html > > BTW, when I touched that page I noticed that they have a StarOffice > personal edition avaialbe for download as well. Microsoft's line of products, for price of media, at UT Dallas: http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/microsoft/software.html MJP
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:25:17 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <alex-1601991125180001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> Organization: Web Information Solutions Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy In article <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > How is that telling? > > Apple doesn't provide AppleShare IP to Developers for free. They actually did at one point. IP 5.02 was free. > > As I've said in the past, the ADC programs are ripe for abuse. Part of the reason for the ADC program is for people to develop. Its difficult to do without the OS. That's why ADC comes with Mac OS releases as part of the package. I have DR2 and loved working on it. I have some apps I'd really like to develop on MacOSXS and they are server apps. I still will, but its very bad karma to have to pay anything close to the $1k required to DEVELOP. > > Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus >all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. > > A limited version (no Netbooting, no AppleShare and >potentially no WebObjects) at a reasonable price is a fairly good >compromise. Remember that unlike the vast majority of seeds and betas >and upgrades, Apple has a rather substanatial per unit license (DPS) >to pay. Fine, I don't mind them charging what their licensing fee is. I also would be fairly happy with them taking netbooting, appleshare and webojbects out (as long as EOF was still in there - that's what I need). My problem is that they seem to be going more toward the $500-just less than $1k charge. > > Of course I'd rather have it free, but I've never expected it >as part of the $500 program.. the numbers just don't add up. -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:48:58 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1601991248580001@ppp-70.ts-6.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> [snip all the arguing over the definition of vaporware] <http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/>, the FOLDOC computing dictionary, defines 'vaporware' as: "<jargon> /vay'pr-weir/ Products announced far in advance of any release (which may or may not actually take place). The term came from Atari users and was later used by Infoworld to Microsoft's continuous lying about Microsoft Windows." That should clear things up. Note that it says *any* release, which would include developer releases, meaning that MacOS X Server/Rhapsody is _not_ vaporware. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today. znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 16 Jan 1999 17:55:06 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77qjpq$ke9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <77qf47$jbf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36A0CB82.2AEB563B@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: : John Jensen wrote: : > Lest we forget, Solaris is still free: : > : > http://www.sun.com/solaris/freesolaris.html : > : > BTW, when I touched that page I noticed that they have a StarOffice : > personal edition avaialbe for download as well. : Microsoft's line of products, for price of media, at UT Dallas: : http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/microsoft/software.html Student programs are nice, but I think the open programs like Sun's are a little nicer - both for the user and for Sun. There are a lot of programmers in the world. What they run at work is usually a given ... and determined by someone's marketing analysis. What they run at home is up to them, and is (at least where I've worked) where the real experimentation and new directions come from. No one (sane) is going to walk into their manager's office and say "There is a great new platform we've got to support" without getting some runtime first. How exactly, does an interested programmer get a little runtime on MacOS X Server? John
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:00:18 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-1601991300520001@col-pm3-128.innova.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> l{xwe38gJQI4JG^YzGa`#itr<2Zmf7sfIPf@$+oJ:50X=Xf9]r2~xD4k#/j`+dM!l_RZ O""T[]lqM0!"59Im#p4 In article <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) and ppclinux, name one flavor of > unix that has a fully functional ppc port. Perhaps NetBSD, but I can't think > of any others. I wasn't aware that MkLinux had been abandoned... In any case, I can think of two other Unices which have "fully functional PPC ports. IBM's AIX and Sun's Solaris. Granted, neither of them run on Macs, and the Solaris version was canned long ago, but it exists. AIX is a particularly nice OS if you have a hefty IBM workstation or server...it's the single biggest reason why NT for PPC was abandoned by Mot and IBM and then Microsoft. People who bought PPC servers wanted the best possible OS for them...they went with AIX. Trev
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 16 Jan 1999 16:35:19 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77qf47$jbf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Dirk Theisen <theisen@akaMail.com> wrote: : Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : : > Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus : > all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. : I understand that Apple wants to deliver a stripped down version of MXS : to prevent abuse. I don't understand that they will charge again for : that. : I also don't understand that they don't communicate terms for : educational development licenses (this has a long tradition at least : here in germany - it's almost a secret). Lest we forget, Solaris is still free: http://www.sun.com/solaris/freesolaris.html BTW, when I touched that page I noticed that they have a StarOffice personal edition avaialbe for download as well. John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 16 Jan 1999 16:42:24 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77qfhg$jbf$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net> <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net> <77pe4n$q9e$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : Mac OS X is based on Mac OS X Server. Anything that runs on : Mac OS X Server via YB should be easily adaptable to Mac OS X. [...] The problem with this extrapolation is that it faces the same risk as previous examples: Rhapsody is ... MacOS X Server is ... Many a slip between cup and lip, John
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:03:29 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36A0E281.9F8EB937@ericsson.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <77qf47$jbf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36A0CB82.2AEB563B@nstar.net> <77qjpq$ke9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Jensen wrote: > Student programs are nice, but I think the open programs like Sun's are a > little nicer - both for the user and for Sun. I totally agree. I didn't want to detract from your point, far from it. It was my attempt at pointing out that students have lots of low-cost choices for development environments, including nearly all of Apple's competitors. It's a good idea for everyone else, but...not Apple? Think Different, I guess. Sorry, I needed to laugh. > There are a lot of programmers in the world. What they run at work is > usually a given ... and determined by someone's marketing analysis. What > they run at home is up to them, and is (at least where I've worked) where > the real experimentation and new directions come from. > > No one (sane) is going to walk into their manager's office and say "There > is a great new platform we've got to support" without getting some runtime > first. > > How exactly, does an interested programmer get a little runtime on MacOS X > Server? He doesn't, except as follows: 1) Work for Apple 2) Work for himself What do you notice about the NeXT people on this list? MJP
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:07:32 GMT Message-ID: <36a3a9d8.963280@news.demon.co.uk> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> <slrn79sqpf.flj.jedi@dementia.mishnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:09:51 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: >On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:45 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>On 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >>Browne) wrote: <snip> >>>There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a >>>news browser, and vice versa. >> >>Alas, my transport details appear obtrusively on my phone bill every >>quarter. > > So? That's no excuse for imbedding the transport into the > viewing agent. It's simply uncessary. It suddenly occurred to me that I hadn't explained myself. I pay for every second that I am using the phone line. I do not have free local calls. Every second that my phone line sits unused waiting for me to do something, is money down the drain. I do wish to avoid incurring an equivalent of a $200+ phone bill ever again. Add that to the fact there is a minimum charge, so all calls of approx 5mins and less cost the same.. If you take a programming analogy, on-line is where you go into a program, you make a few changes, you re-compile, If you've screwed up then you edit and make a few changes and re-compile. Off-line is the old way, where you write your program and then submit it to the data-centre for compilation and execution overnight. If you screw up, it's 24hrs before you can try again. Off-line reading may be a foreign concept to many Americans and those who access Usenet through work, but it is all too familiar to us Europeans. It's probably why there are so few real off-line newsreaders. >>>That's called Careful Design. >> >>Unless the user (me) wants it there - and I do. In that case it is the >>Wrong Design. > > The user needn't even be aware of the difference. The difference between off-line and on-line is very apparent, and a user will notice the difference immediately. It is a completely different way of working. Regards Anthony -- =============================================================== |'All kids love log!' | | Ren & Stimpy | ===============================================================
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:07:33 GMT Message-ID: <36a3b9a3.11756130@news.demon.co.uk> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> <77ma74$usm$20@blue.hex.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Jan 1999 02:47:00 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote: >On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:45 GMT, Anthony Ord ><nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>On 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >>Browne) wrote: >>>On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT, Anthony Ord >>><nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use >>>>Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? <snip> >>>There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a >>>news browser, and vice versa. >> >>Alas, my transport details appear obtrusively on my phone bill every >>quarter. <snip> >Which means that it would be valuable to have an NNTP "proxy" that just >retrieves certain header portions, and then goes back to get headers and >bodies when users request them. > >This still can leave the transport details out of the news browser. > >Rumor has it that Leafnode has been modified by some so that it can do >this. That makes that version of Leafnode a feasible option to let >people use whatever news reader they like without transport issues >having to intrude *too* much. Alas, that wouldn't work. It would still entail me spending time online selecting threads. Look at it this way; if the proxy gets the threads immediately, it means I'm on line. If it does not, my newsreader blocks until a timeout, then fails. Having the 'transport details' on my news browser is the only feasible way of doing it. Besides, the different between off-line and on-line reading are blatantly obvious to the user anyway, so encapsulating that in the reader isn't a big crime, like some would suggest. Regards Anthony -- =============================================================== |'All kids love log!' | | Ren & Stimpy | ===============================================================
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:55:20 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn7a1rl8.s15.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> <slrn79sqpf.flj.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36a3a9d8.963280@news.demon.co.uk> On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:07:32 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:09:51 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) >wrote: > >>On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:45 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>On 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >>>Browne) wrote: ><snip> >>>>There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a >>>>news browser, and vice versa. >>> >>>Alas, my transport details appear obtrusively on my phone bill every >>>quarter. >> >> So? That's no excuse for imbedding the transport into the >> viewing agent. It's simply uncessary. > >It suddenly occurred to me that I hadn't explained myself. I pay for >every second that I am using the phone line. I do not have free local No, you never explained why transport agent being seperate had any effect on your phone bill. It really doesn't need to. >calls. Every second that my phone line sits unused waiting for me to >do something, is money down the drain. I do wish to avoid incurring an >equivalent of a $200+ phone bill ever again. > >Add that to the fact there is a minimum charge, so all calls of approx >5mins and less cost the same.. > >If you take a programming analogy, on-line is where you go into a >program, you make a few changes, you re-compile, If you've screwed up >then you edit and make a few changes and re-compile. Off-line is the >old way, where you write your program and then submit it to the >data-centre for compilation and execution overnight. If you screw up, >it's 24hrs before you can try again. ...or it could be 20 minutes later or some time after the spool has been read or written to... > >Off-line reading may be a foreign concept to many Americans and those >who access Usenet through work, but it is all too familiar to us >Europeans. > >It's probably why there are so few real off-line newsreaders. No, there are just real newsservers. This eliminates the need for every browser to also be their own server. > >>>>That's called Careful Design. >>> >>>Unless the user (me) wants it there - and I do. In that case it is the >>>Wrong Design. >> >> The user needn't even be aware of the difference. > >The difference between off-line and on-line is very apparent, and a >user will notice the difference immediately. It is a completely >different way of working. No it isn't. It's merely a matter of setting everything up such that the user is unaware of the difference. I keep a local spool primarily because my upstream NNTP servers have always been so lousy and unable to keep up a decent interactive newsreading session. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Message-ID: <tbrown-1601991509120001@d132.ecr.net> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:09:11 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:09:53 CDT In article <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>, theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) wrote: >Call it "Prelude to Mac OS X", or whatever. I waited so damned long >already since DR2. It really drives me crazy to work around defects in >DR2 that have been solved /a long time ago/. Call it Mac OS Developer. Don't put the 'X' in the title, then it's not even clear if it's an OS release or not. It is clear that a normal user would not see the name and think to run out and buy it. Only offer it through the AppleStore, and don't include it in build to order. The pkg would include OSXS (sans WO, AS) but include all the Yellow dev tools as well as copies of MPW (etc) to run in the blue box. Even a pure-Mac OS developer might like a machine where the entire thing doesn't come down when he does something stupid. You would _not_ need to be part of the Apple Developer program to buy it. Better, use it as an advantage. When a copy of OSD or OSXS gets registered online, the user gains access to a Mac OS Developer page. There Apple can release updates that are going to be folded into OS X. Anything that doesn't spec. rely upon the new kernel could be downloaded by savy users and mass tested. It wouldn't even strictly be a 'pay to beta test program', users would have a stable OS and the option of trying out new OS X pieces. For those who want OSXS, they won't care if Apple calls it 'Turd, the Dog faced boy'. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:07:49 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-1601991507490001@col-pm3-132.innova.net> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net> <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net> <77pe4n$q9e$1@news.digifix.com> l{xwe38gJQI4JG^YzGa`#itr<2Zmf7sfIPf@$+oJ:50X=Xf9]r2~xD4k#/j`+dM!l_RZ O""T[]lqM0!"59Im#p4 In article <77pe4n$q9e$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > On 01/15/99, Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote: > >released for EITHER platform after version 1.0? No further > development, > Now, with the AppleShare IP and NetBooting in the PPC version, > that could indicate that it has a longer life. True. I'll admit that I haven't been keeping up with it as closely in the last few months as I was last year. > The client doesn't have to wait. Mac OS X Workstation could > be a stripped down Mac OS X Server and fill the interim release of Mac > OS X, giving Apple much more feedback about what users expect from Mac > OS X, and are willing to accept as changes. Perhaps they will release a version without WebObject and AppleShare. It's a good idea in the meantime, but I suspect Apple is concerned that people will buy it without the realization that OS X itself will be drastically different. They probably don't want to get people started down a new path only to have that path change dramatically in a few short months. Early adopters, hobbyists, people with an investment in Openstep, etc...they do deserve some consideration. I like the idea of giving away Solaris for noncommercial purposes, and DEC's giving away OpenVMS for VAX hobbyists. You make good points regarding Intel, of course. While the $995 is a fine deal for what it includes, it includes way more than I need and I, too, would like to see that kind of OS running on my Macs, even without WebObjects and all the server-specific stuff that's included. The thing is, without that server stuff, there aren't a lot of compelling reasons to switch to a new OS unless the Blue Box environment is a solid replacement for running Mac OS. Applications-wise, OS X Server would be pretty light, at least currently. I realize there are some things from long-time NS developers which are highly worthwhile, but there aren't a lot. Trev
From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:15:58 +0100 Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands Message-ID: <36A0F37E.7745898F@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <369d8763$0$16668@nntp1.ba.best.com> <36a0c424.586694682@199.217.9.201> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 20:17:22 GMT Larry D Bohan, Jr wrote: > VMS source *listings* have always been available, for about the > price of DevStudio nowadays. they used to ship w/ the OS > binaries (on microfiche) some years/releases ago. Oh, sure, if you didn't mind spoiling your eyes on the "fish tank" (microfiche repository). -- Toon Moene (toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl) Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands Phone: +31 346 214290; Fax: +31 346 214286 g77 Support: fortran@gnu.org; egcs: egcs-bugs@cygnus.com
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:33:13 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > In <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> Rick wrote:- > > Gee - I guess you dont about Linux and the other Unix flavors that run > > on PPC, do you?- > > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) and ppclinux, name one flavor of > unix that has a fully functional ppc port. Perhaps NetBSD, but I can't think > of any others. Well, as for Linux there is MLLinux (you might want to tell Apple they ahve abandoned MKLinux) , Linux PPC and Debian Linux/PPC, as for Unix, at the moment NetBSD/PPC is listed as an experimental port, as is OpenBSD. MachTen is a full MacPPC (G3, even) Unix implementation.
From: agave_@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:31:12 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77qsug$u8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net> <77ok88$sso@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <F5Mvp3.4r6@T-FCN.Net> In article <F5Mvp3.4r6@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > And on that note, I TOTALLY agree. But there's an easy answer, > [YellowBox is] MacApp 5.0. > *laugh* That would be perfect and fit in with all of Apple's other silly name games :) Take care, -- Ian P. Cardenas BLaCKSMITH, inc. Software Engineer -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:04:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/ Message-ID: <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:36:40 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: >Stephen E. Halpin <seh@quadrizen.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:36:15 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin >> E. Thorne) wrote: >> >> >Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: >> > >> >> "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: >> >> >> >> > <snip> >> >> > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. >> >> > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been >> >> > >created. >> >> > >> >> > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, >> >> > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not >> >> > be in the first shipping release. >> > >> >Mac OS X is NOT vapor. I repeat, vaporware is software that is >> >announced *BEFORE* it is created. Mac OS X DOES NOT fit that >> >description. Not complete != does not exist. >> >> You can repeat it until your are blue in the face, but it doesnt >> change the reality. If it isnt shipping, its vaporware. > >Wrong. If it doesn't exist it's vaporware. Your face is turning a dark shade of G3. Lets introduce you to the rest of the world, so you can see how the term has been commonly used for nearly two decades: From http://www.it.com.au/jargon/vaporware.html, and repeated at many other sites from around the world: vaporware /vay'pr-weir/ n. Products announced far in advance of any release (which may or may not actually take place) From http://webopedia.internet.com/TERM/v/vaporware.html: vaporware A sarcastic term used to designate software and hardware products that have been announced and advertised but are not yet available. From http://home.cet.com/support/glossary.htm: Vaporware Software that's announced but delayed or never released. From http://www.azcentral.com/computing/answer/glossary.shtml: vaporware: Term used to describe a product, whether hardware or software, that has been announced but has yet to materialize. From http://www.maran.com/dictionary/v/vapor/index.html: vaporware Software that has been announced by a manufacturer but not released. Most delays are caused by the sheer complexity of creating a stable and bug-free product. Never depend on vaporware - software isn't software until you have it in your hands. From http://people.delphi.com/~mitziproctor/red.html: vaporware - software or hardware that is either (1) announced or mentioned publicly in order to influence customers to defer buying competitors' products or (2) late being delivered for whatever reason. Most computer companies have from time to time delivered vaporware , either by calculation or unintentionally. The vaporware picture is now "clouded" by the existence of beta products, a kind of vaporware that is almost solid. There is a vaporware Hall of Shame for games software . From http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/smro/0520/317460.html: The game works like this: A vendor announces it is coming out with a product or technology that it touts will work wonders. But the product is often unproved or not fully developed, and sometimes amounts to nothing more than some marketing executive's creative musings. In many instances it never comes to market at all. Remember IBM's Workplace OS, Apple's Copland, Novell SuperNOS, Taligent, Microsoft Corp.'s Cairo? All were vaporware. The article above is particuarly interesting in that it reflects on the costs to the next tier in the chain, ie developers who depended on technologies like OpenDoc. From http://ne2.news.com/News/Item/0,4,9720,00.html, a humorous quote from the CEO of Sun, referencing slipped dates driving vaporware: Even with his company mapping out the future, McNealy joked that Sun hasn't done enough to promote its vaporware. "We'll give you the opportunity to talk about how we've slipped our dates, too," McNealy said. From http://www.netc.org/web_mod/leap/Glossary_of_Terms.html: Vaporware...Software that has been announced by a manufacture but not released. From http://www.celebration.com/service/c_net_ig.htm: Vaporware A software product that is announced but will not be imminently released. From http://www.jump.net/~fdietz/softgloss.htm: Vaporware Software that has been announced a long time ago but yet been shipped. Even from the Harvard Journal of Law and Technology at the site http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/high/abstracts/8hjolt1.html: There is an increasing trend in the high-tech industries to announce, in advance, products that maybe months or years away from actually reaching the market. Many of these products never reach the market, and few ever have all the features that were advertised. This phenomenon is given the title, vaporware. The practice of vaporware has given rise to numerous lawsuits and costs the industry more than a billion dollars a year. Note that none of these definitions refer to the "existence" of a product, many of these definitions clearly alude to products which exist in development, and all refer to a released, available product as the reference point for when something is no longer vaporware. This list spans the CEO of Sun to the Harvard Journal of Law and Technology, and the sources span the globe. This is the reality that surrounds you, regardless of whether you accept that reality. Copland, Gershwin, Rhapsody, and MacOS X were all announced a long time ago (most by a matter of years), none are shipping, and at least half of this list will never ship. They are all, by all the definitions above, vaporware. >> Otherwise >> a company could write one line of code, say its not complete, and >> it is suddenly "created". > >There is a lot more than one line of code in Rhapsody. That's a silly >example. This is the perfect example - if your definition does not address the degenerate case, it is not sufficiently qualified. >> Until the product ships, there are no >> commitments as to features, or even that it will ship. > >AFAIK it *did* ship to developers. I know. I have been running it since DR1, along side my NeXTstep and A/UX boxes, but that doesnt mean I can ship a solution based on it, because I cant buy it in a form that I can sell to a customer. I can ship solutions based on operating systems like Solaris and Windows NT, because they are actually shipping. >> We have >> seen this with Copland, > >Much of Copland has been shipped as Mac OS upgrades. Copland was never >used to freeze the Mac market the way that M$ has frozen markets with >their true vaporware: products that weren't even conceived until a >competitor shipped the equivalent. This right here is your problem. You are trying to redefine vaporware to differentiate Apple from Microsoft. >> which was killed outright, and MacOS X Server, >> which wont support either non-G3 PowerMacs or Intel boxes, which > >That doesn't make it vapor. It does to any developer who has been building product around these platforms, and to all the customers of all the products being written for MacOS X Server. >> Apples early press releases indicated would be supported. As for >> anyone who believed it was going to be available commercially a >> year ago as was originally announced, they have been looking at a >> whole year of vapor, because vapor is all they have had to plan >> with and vapor is all they have to deploy. > >They have been waiting for the product to be released. If they were >waiting for vapor, they'd be waiting for a product that Apple hasn't >even started. There have been releases to developers, so they've had >more than just vapor to work with. > >> To the commercial >> consumer, it still doesnt exist. > >That's still not the definition of vaporware. I've noticed the >tendency of some people to creatively redefine words to make it look as >if everyone does the same things Microsoft does. No, you are clearly redefining the term to try to make someone else not look like Microsoft. Again, look at the list above to see how the word is commonly used by the rest of the world. >> The fact that there has been so >> much debate here about whether it will even include BlueBox and >> whether the Intel port really has been dropped should highlight >> these points. > >That just highlights how many people gossip about things they have no >direct knowledge of. And why dont they have direct knowledge? Because there is no shipping product for them to analyze. As it stands, Apples recent press releases state platform limitations which contradict earlier press releases, and until it ships, they have the ability to keep changing it. Until a stake is has been placed in the ground, all you have are promises and rumors - vapor. >> >> <snip> >> >> >> >> > -Steve >> >> >> >> Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and >> >> "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I >> >> copyright it, or release it into public domain. Hmmm. >> >> >> >> Michael Monner >> > >> >They have names for that already, such as "developer's release," >> >"preview release," and "beta." >> > >> >-- >> >Remove the spamblock to reply to me. >> >> -Steve > > >-- >Remove the spamblock to reply to me. -Steve
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:53:37 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn7a1v2h.scd.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> <77ma74$usm$20@blue.hex.net> <36a3b9a3.11756130@news.demon.co.uk> On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:07:33 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On 15 Jan 1999 02:47:00 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >Browne) wrote: > >>On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:45 GMT, Anthony Ord >><nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>On 13 Jan 1999 02:23:32 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >>>Browne) wrote: >>>>On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:05:19 GMT, Anthony Ord >>>><nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>But there aren't any good offline news readers, which is why I use >>>>>Agent. Or does anyone have a suggestion? ><snip> >>>>There's little sense in pushing transport details obtrusively into a >>>>news browser, and vice versa. >>> >>>Alas, my transport details appear obtrusively on my phone bill every >>>quarter. ><snip> >>Which means that it would be valuable to have an NNTP "proxy" that just >>retrieves certain header portions, and then goes back to get headers and >>bodies when users request them. >> >>This still can leave the transport details out of the news browser. >> >>Rumor has it that Leafnode has been modified by some so that it can do >>this. That makes that version of Leafnode a feasible option to let >>people use whatever news reader they like without transport issues >>having to intrude *too* much. > >Alas, that wouldn't work. It would still entail me spending time >online selecting threads. Look at it this way; if the proxy gets the ...just like the 'using Agent to keep connection time down' problem would. All that's required is a way inside the reader (or even outside) to tell whatever transport agent is being used that it's time to go get the tagged messages. >threads immediately, it means I'm on line. If it does not, my >newsreader blocks until a timeout, then fails. > >Having the 'transport details' on my news browser is the only feasible >way of doing it. Besides, the different between off-line and on-line >reading are blatantly obvious to the user anyway, so encapsulating >that in the reader isn't a big crime, like some would suggest. Sure, offline reading is a whole helluva lot faster. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> Message-ID: <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:31:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:31:40 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne wrote:- > for. The Alpha has the fastest clock speed, and can run Unix and NT, > yet it is not the dominate processor. Perhaps you'd like to explain > why? Alpha has better floating point performance than any of the mentioned platforms. Digital was not as successful as Sun at selling their cpu, and their os (Digital Unix) was not as attractive to science and entertainment as Solaris or Irix. By the time Alpha's had the performance edge, Sun and SGI were already entrenched.- > Your Unix choices on the Mac include MachTen, AIX AIX won't run on a mac afaik.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:40:15 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77r0vv$d94$1@news.xmission.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> <77qf47$jbf$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36A0CB82.2AEB563B@nstar.net> <77qjpq$ke9$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36A0E281.9F8EB937@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:40:15 GMT Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > John Jensen wrote: > > How exactly, does an interested programmer get a little runtime on > > MacOS X Server? > > He doesn't, except as follows: > > 1) Work for Apple > 2) Work for himself > > What do you notice about the NeXT people on this list? #2 and shrinking, because you can only bleed them so far and then all that's left is a dry husk. Ted Brown writes: > For those who want OSXS, they won't care if Apple calls it > 'Turd, the Dog faced boy'. <adolescent_mode> Now that's an, ahem, "slick" bit of marketing. Many of the #2 group above (#2, get it? har, har) feel like they've been sh** on, so this would really capture the moment! So where can I buy my copy, and can I give the machine the host name mrhanky? Anyone know where to get G3's in brown cases? :-P </adolescent_mode> Sorry, I just couldn't resist, even though I _do_ know better... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Message-ID: <36A10D96.46B13F28@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369FFD38.3C499F9A@yahoo.com> <77qefb$1el$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:23:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:23:45 PDT John Jensen wrote: > Rex Riley <rr6013.yahoo.com> wrote: > > : You, me and everyone else missed the defining moment... iMac sales. Had > : not iMac kicked in and then soared, the passionate dreamy technology > : promises of NeXT would've driven Apple logic. > > I don't think I was the first to comment, but on 1998/10/02 I did post: > > "That is of course the second part of the story. In 1996 everybody > thought Apple needed preemptive multitasking to regain market trust. Who > would have guessed that all they needed was a little translucent plastic. > Perhaps Steve Jobs. If he knew that he didn't need a new OS, and that all > he needed was a return to style and an intangible Appleness, then he > called it right. If the factories are humming and inventories aren't > piling up, who needs a new OS this year?" October98 I was past phew, poohing iMac and confused what all the fuss was about. Until the $152 million in profit, I was still a skeptic. I was completely out of touch with the consumer market. As sarcastic as it sounded then, the truth is intangilbles count more than technology. SJ knows intangibles won't scale Apple's growth without new technology for the Mac. You may reference your precient insight once again when MacOS X is delivered Q1 '00... -r >
From: "[ the emperor ]" <kris@planetary.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:23:25 -0700 Message-ID: <36a1113a.0@news3.uswest.net> An Apple engineer thus spake ... > >Why am I unable to get worked up about the "unresolved issues", about this >dreaded "future" we're all so worried about? Because I am happy _right >now_. This is more or less the computer and OS I imagined when the merger >happened. As far as my computing life is concerned, the rest is gravy. >What could I do if the runtime issues et al were worked out, the world >dumped Java for ObjC, my Yellow app sold a trillion copies and I were rich >beyond imagining? Buy more copies of it? It must be not have to worry about those pesky unresolved issues like "how the #$&* am I going to recoup my investment in Yellow Box when I can't get to the NT market that's been promised to me for years." ...................... kris
From: seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:14:48 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/ Message-ID: <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:16:38 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: >Chris Black <c@c.com> wrote: > >> In article <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... >> > >> > >> > ---------- >> > In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, >> > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: >> > >> > >> > > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are >> > > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: >> > > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that >> > > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. >> > > >> > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. >> > > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT If you are looking for graphics performance, its unlikely that Rhapsody would have been anything more than useless. Display Postscript as run under NeXTstep did not use any of the features provided by graphics cards, instead using them as simple frame buffers. Add in the removal of the 3DKit from NeXTstep to OpenStep, and you have a nonstarter. Add in a lack of applications, and it gets worse. >> > I have nothing against Intergraph, but what does big business have to do >> > with the graphics market? NT has made inroads on this market mostly because >> > of NT has a better server offering than Apple. With Mac OS X server coupled >> > with Mac OS X, this is likely to swing the other way. NT has it's >> > advantages, but so does Mac OS. NT's advantages are mostly with servers, >> > etc. Further, some customers are requiring the buzzwords (PMT, protected >> > memory, etc.) Whereas the Macs advantages are with graphics (i.e. system >> > level color sync, etc.) Once MacOS X comes out, NT looses whatever >> > advantage it once had. It would be interesting to take a 400MHz G3 and put it up against one of the demo four processor SGI Visual PCs. NT systems scale well above Macintosh systems now for both desktop and server applications. Its a far cry from the days of NuBus based Macs against ISA based PCs. NT also has the advantage of being compatable with the software most businesses use on the desktop. There is no indication that MacOS X will address either of these advantages. >> Could you please expand on the "etc." part in your statement about Mac >> graphic superiority. Exactly what are the Mac's advantages at graphics >> over a PC? While you're at it, please tell me exactly how the >> currently vaporous MacOS X (or even the shipping one that's still about a >> year off) will negate NT's advantage. >> >> Chris. > >If you want to ask what advantages the Mac has over a PC, don't include >Intergraph. Intergraph is a workstation, not a PC. Sure, it runs NT, >and it uses an Intel processor. But none of the rest of its >architecture is "PC." The post was comparing Macintosh to Windows NT. The Intergraph and the SGI are perfectly valid platforms for comparison here. >The Intergraph graphics advantage comes from its proprietary, expensive >graphics hardware, not from NT or its Intel processor. Almost all non-VGA graphics hardware is proprietary by definition, and its stating the obvious that graphics accelerators can play a significant role in a systems graphics performance. Intergraph claims that their Wildcat card is their fastest, and its a standard AGP card, as are high end cards from companies like Evans and Sutherland. These AGP cards will plug into many standard PCs. As with the Macintosh, if you pick a faster card, you get faster graphics, and if you pick a slower card you get slower graphics. The difference is for certain applications, "faster" on the PC can be far faster than "faster" on the Macintosh. While youre at it, add multiprocessing, which both NT and Intel support as a standard feature, which can help in the overall performance of graphics applications. You will find that other PC operating systems such as Solaris, BeOS, Linux, FreeBSD, and SCO also support multiprocessing on standard PC hardware. >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been >created. MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not be in the first shipping release. Remember Copland? It existed in various forms inside Apple for years, and its still vaporware today. Rhapsody for all PowerPCs released in the past few years? Vapor. The party line now is that it will only run on G3s. The rumors that it would support multiprocessing, given that folks have claimed NeXT had a multiprocessing version of the kernel for years? It appears to be more vapor. MacOS X will be no different until its finally released, and we can see what it really is. Until then, its all marketing dreams and vaporware. >-- >Remove the spamblock to reply to me. -Steve
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 16 Jan 1999 22:22:25 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <77r3f1$oa8$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77o5th$bdd$1@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 22:22:25 GMT Don Yacktman (don@misckit.com) wrote: > tom__98@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > I think Java's nested classes adequately address the kinds of > > situations where you would use forwarding or categories in Objective- > > C. In fact, I think nested classes are preferable in many situations > > (even if they take a while to get used to). > This statement demonstrates your ignorance of what Objective-C is and can do. > For example, how would you patch existing classes without subclassing to > either add functionality or work around bugs? How would you propose using > nested clases to creat EOFault objects or NSProxy objects, and have them both > function as cleanly as they do in Objective-C? How about the MiscTee class? > If you can even implement them at all, you'll find that the Java > implementation requires at least 10x as much code and is much harder to use. Don is totally correct here. You *cannot* implement them, due to security considerations in Java. Yet categories and forwarding are what makes Objective-C's implementations of many things, most notably Distributed Objects, so elegant compared to the awful manifestations of similar things in Java to date. And it's also what's making Yellow Box Java such a headache for Apple. But we should remember that Java doesn't do these things on purpose. There is a tradeoff between sophistication and security; Objective-C is on the far end away from security. Java is nearer to the other end. There are good reasons for both. Though *I* personally think Java could do a lot more Objective-C-ish stuff with little security risks... Sean
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 16 Jan 1999 23:20:38 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77r6s6$d94$2@news.xmission.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77o5th$bdd$1@news.xmission.com> <77r3f1$oa8$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 23:20:38 GMT In article <77r3f1$oa8$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, you wrote: > But we should remember that Java doesn't do these things on purpose. > There is a tradeoff between sophistication and security; Objective-C > is on the far end away from security. Java is nearer to the other > end. There are good reasons for both. I agree fully -- what I disagree with are the fools who try to shoehorn every project into Java. IMHO people should use the right language for each job instead of Java, C++, or even Objective-C "everywhere". Each language was designed to meet certain criteria and no one language can match them all no matter how hard it tries to do so, Ada notwithstanding. Again, use the right lanuage for the job, or you'll pay penalties such as poor future maintainability or writing much more code than should be necessary, etc. > Though *I* personally think Java could do a lot more Objective-C-ish > stuff with little security risks... Sure. Something acceptably close to Objective-C categories but that would fit within the Java security paradigm has already been proposed. I just don't think Sun will ever pay attention to it: http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/JavaCats.html Send in those cards and letters... Note also: http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/oocsb/papers/TRCS97-20.html -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:36:30 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> Organization: Blackrock Systems > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) Try again. Do your homework.
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:43:48 -0700 Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology Message-ID: <mazulauf-1601991643490001@happy.met.utah.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 1999 23:41:43 GMT In article <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com>, seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) wrote: > Your face is turning a dark shade of G3. Lets introduce you to the > rest of the world, so you can see how the term has been commonly used > for nearly two decades: (excellent group of vaporware definitions snipped) This whole thing is hugely reminiscent of a discussion I had with Andy Bates back in 9/96 about whether Copland was vapor or not. He claimed it wasn't, I said it was. Funny, he still seems to trust every word that comes out of Apple. Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> Message-ID: <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:04:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:04:49 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> Steve Hix wrote: > > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > > > > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) > > Try again. Do your homework.- You are right. The Open Group dropped development, but Apple is still working on it it appears. My bad.
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:30:17 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1601991930170001@ppp-8.ts-7.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <mazulauf-1601991643490001@happy.met.utah.edu> In article <mazulauf-1601991643490001@happy.met.utah.edu>, mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: > In article <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com>, seh@quadrizen.com > (Stephen E. Halpin) wrote: > > > Your face is turning a dark shade of G3. Lets introduce you to the > > rest of the world, so you can see how the term has been commonly used > > for nearly two decades: > > (excellent group of vaporware definitions snipped) > > This whole thing is hugely reminiscent of a discussion I had with Andy > Bates back in 9/96 about whether Copland was vapor or not. He claimed it > wasn't, I said it was. > > Funny, he still seems to trust every word that comes out of Apple. No developer releases were never shipped of Copland, no public demos were made, and never did Apple say "it will ship next month". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today. znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <36A13050.83C7C0CD@home.com> From: Ari <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <mazulauf-1601991643490001@happy.met.utah.edu> <znu-1601991930170001@ppp-8.ts-7.nyc.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:35:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:35:39 PDT znu wrote: > In article <mazulauf-1601991643490001@happy.met.utah.edu>, > mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: > > > In article <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com>, seh@quadrizen.com > > (Stephen E. Halpin) wrote: > > > > > Your face is turning a dark shade of G3. Lets introduce you to the > > > rest of the world, so you can see how the term has been commonly used > > > for nearly two decades: > > > > (excellent group of vaporware definitions snipped) > > > > This whole thing is hugely reminiscent of a discussion I had with Andy > > Bates back in 9/96 about whether Copland was vapor or not. He claimed it > > wasn't, I said it was. > > > > Funny, he still seems to trust every word that comes out of Apple. > > No developer releases were never shipped of Copland, no public demos were > made, and never did Apple say "it will ship next month". double negative! > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today. > > znu <at> idt <dot> net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ari
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:50:04 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1601991950040001@ppp-8.ts-7.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <mazulauf-1601991643490001@happy.met.utah.edu> <znu-1601991930170001@ppp-8.ts-7.nyc.idt.net> <36A13050.83C7C0CD@home.com> In article <36A13050.83C7C0CD@home.com>, Ari <arikounavis@home.com> wrote: > znu wrote: > > > In article <mazulauf-1601991643490001@happy.met.utah.edu>, > > mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: [snip] > > > This whole thing is hugely reminiscent of a discussion I had with Andy > > > Bates back in 9/96 about whether Copland was vapor or not. He claimed it > > > wasn't, I said it was. > > > > > > Funny, he still seems to trust every word that comes out of Apple. > > > > No developer releases were never shipped of Copland, no public demos were > > made, and never did Apple say "it will ship next month". > > double negative! Typo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today. znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 17 Jan 1999 00:56:03 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7a2d93.ueg.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <stevehix-1601991535290001@192.168.1.10> NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 1999 00:56:03 GMT On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:35:28 -0800, Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote: :Don't bet on it. : :We watched the Alpha for quite a while...eventually being amazed :at how bad DEC was at selling into Sun's space...before Sun had :come anywhere near their current marketshare. I wasn't quite as surprised. Whenever scientists that I knew tried their own codes on Alpha machines the performance advantages over other workstations weren't close to what the advertised benchmarks would have implied. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB developers wanted... Date: 15 Jan 1999 14:43:01 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <77nk5l$ju9$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <77ljhb$j7f$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >... in the midst of all the doom and gloom, we now have more YB-related work >than we ever had during the NeXT era, so if you haven't yet been totally >disheartened and you're interested in starting work in the London area soon, >please drop me an email. Seconded. Lots of YB/WO related work in the Frankfurt area, too. Send me email if you're interested, I can give you pointers. Now if Apple would only release YB/NT runtime - it wouldn't have to be free... it would suffice if it were _available_ :-) Regards, Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 17 Jan 1999 03:31:39 GMT Organization: University of Utah - ACLIS Message-ID: <slrn7a2md0.ira.mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 1999 03:31:39 GMT In article <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, Michael Lankton wrote: >In <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> Steve Hix wrote: >> > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: >> >> > > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) >> >> Try again. Do your homework.- > >You are right. The Open Group dropped development, but Apple is still >working on it it appears. My bad. In a very limited sense. There is only one Apple person working on it (Gilbert Colville), and I'm not sure if he's MkLinux full time. He's mainly working on drivers I believe, and leaving Linux kernel work to the "private" individuals (who are actually getting quite a bit done). Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <6325915944426@digifix.com> Date: 17 Jan 1999 04:45:19 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <306916549240@digifix.com> Topics include: Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites NeXTanswers Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites ============================================ The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise. Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server http://www.stepwise.com Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related Frequently Asked Questions. NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org http://www.peak.org/next http://www.peak.org/openstep http://www.peak.org/rhapsody PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North America. Apple Enterprise Software Group (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) http://enterprise.apple.com http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software patches. Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to develop great Rhapsody software products.. Rhapsody Developer Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html WebObjects Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups ==================================================== COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific groups as well. COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. ** RELATED NEWSGROUPS ** COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. COMP.OBJECT Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites ================================= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.peanuts.org: (Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site. Very well maintained. ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
Message-ID: <36A16AB1.CDB58975@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <36a1113a.0@news3.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:01:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:01:45 PDT [ the emperor ] wrote: > An Apple engineer thus spake ... > > > >Why am I unable to get worked up about the "unresolved issues", about this > >dreaded "future" we're all so worried about? Because I am happy _right > >now_. This is more or less the computer and OS I imagined when the merger > >happened. As far as my computing life is concerned, the rest is gravy. > >What could I do if the runtime issues et al were worked out, the world > >dumped Java for ObjC, my Yellow app sold a trillion copies and I were rich > >beyond imagining? Buy more copies of it? > > It must be not have to worry about those pesky unresolved issues like "how > the #$&* am I going to recoup my investment in Yellow Box when I can't get > to the NT market that's been promised to me for years." > > ...................... kris What he's asking for is argument that chills his MacOS X warm fuzzies and business cases that disparage packaging _unresolved issues_ as *unsolvable issues*. His rhetorical bit about buying more copies goes to the heart of _the_ question. How many versions (copies) of software do customers need to choose? When consumers buy now they choose PC or Mac. Unresolved issues want to push product shelf space to PC, Mac, NT, Solaris, HP-UX etc... That's not the "future" the merger intended. Remember what happened when Mac *only* got ported PC software? Software degrades into a commodity product without enhancing product brand with unique advantages. Now that Mac has exclusive feature sets not found on PC versions Mac brand value is rebuilding. I don't think there's an argument that makes Apple filthy rich by commodicizing (cross-compiling) their brand value. As the commodicized MacOS was completely undefensible in the marketplace., the "future" fobodes MacOS X'es becoming more differentiated than common. This is a keystone decision being made by Apple. Featuresets is Apple's differentiation and value-add in the PC forest. Where is the customer's motivation to buy a Mac if they can get PasteUp, Quark, Photoshop and Tailor for NT? Approach Apple with exclusive Mac featuresets, or primary debut on the Mac for features for X mos before migrating to PC's and cross-compile may become more attractive. -r
Message-ID: <36A170E1.DF9A4A5F@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Release OS 4.2 to the GPL References: <77mle5$rah@ttacs7.ttu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:24:53 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:16:32 CDT ABSOLUTELY ELOQUENT (pun intended :) The JPEG was also brilliant!!! Funny too! Gabriel Androczky and yourself should join Apple Enterprise's marketing team! Best, Eric "Alan A. Barhorst" wrote: > Dear Apple Leaders, <Great stuff snipped.>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:35:28 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <stevehix-1601991535290001@192.168.1.10> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Organization: Blackrock Systems In article <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne > wrote:- > > for. The Alpha has the fastest clock speed, and can run Unix and NT, > > yet it is not the dominate processor. Perhaps you'd like to explain > > why? > > Alpha has better floating point performance than any of the mentioned > platforms. Digital was not as successful as Sun at selling their cpu, and > their os (Digital Unix) was not as attractive to science and entertainment as > Solaris or Irix. By the time Alpha's had the performance edge, Sun and SGI > were already entrenched.- Don't bet on it. We watched the Alpha for quite a while...eventually being amazed at how bad DEC was at selling into Sun's space...before Sun had come anywhere near their current marketshare.
Message-ID: <36A17576.B19763E8@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <36a1113a.0@news3.uswest.net> <36A16AB1.CDB58975@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:44:28 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:36:03 CDT Rex Riley wrote: > Featuresets is Apple's differentiation and value-add in the PC forest. Where > is the customer's motivation to buy a Mac if they can get PasteUp, Quark, > Photoshop and Tailor for NT? Approach Apple with exclusive Mac featuresets, or > primary debut on the Mac for features for X mos before migrating to PC's and > cross-compile may become more attractive. What are you smoking?! Apple's already done the equivalent of this with QuickTime, and it seems to be for the better. I would advocate a similar cross-platform strategy. Now we have QT for Java - now how about GNU YB/OpenStep - *facilitated by Apple*! -Eric
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 17 Jan 1999 05:18:41 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77rrrh$nmr$1@news.digifix.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1301991823420001@news.vt.edu> <F5K8n0.2GD@T-FCN.Net> <edremy-ya02408000R1401991339330001@news.vt.edu> <F5MFI1.I7o@T-FCN.Net> <trev-1601990213000001@col-pm3-163.innova.net> <77pe4n$q9e$1@news.digifix.com> <77qfhg$jbf$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <77qfhg$jbf$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> On 01/16/99, John Jensen wrote: >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > >: Mac OS X is based on Mac OS X Server. Anything that runs on >: Mac OS X Server via YB should be easily adaptable to Mac OS X. [...] > >The problem with this extrapolation is that it faces the same risk as >previous examples: > > Rhapsody is ... > > MacOS X Server is ... > >Many a slip between cup and lip, I'm not sure what you're claiming here. Rhapsody (the Product) and Mac OS X Server (the product) are quite similar in capabilities. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 17 Jan 1999 05:27:54 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77rscq$nr1$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <alex-1601991125180001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <alex-1601991125180001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> On 01/16/99, Alex Kac wrote: >In article <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott >Anguish) wrote: > >> How is that telling? >> >> Apple doesn't provide AppleShare IP to Developers for free. > >They actually did at one point. IP 5.02 was free. > Do they still? >> >> As I've said in the past, the ADC programs are ripe for abuse. > >Part of the reason for the ADC program is for people to develop. Actually, I'd say that it is the primary reason. Unfortunately, there are folks who abuse the situation. > Its >difficult to do without the OS. That's why ADC comes with Mac OS releases >as part of the package. I have DR2 and loved working on it. I have some >apps I'd really like to develop on MacOSXS and they are server apps. I >still will, but its very bad karma to have to pay anything close to the >$1k required to DEVELOP. > We don't know what the cost is at this point, so to assume that its $1K or anything close is a little early. >> >> Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus >>all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. >> >> A limited version (no Netbooting, no AppleShare and >>potentially no WebObjects) at a reasonable price is a fairly good >>compromise. Remember that unlike the vast majority of seeds and betas >>and upgrades, Apple has a rather substanatial per unit license (DPS) >>to pay. > >Fine, I don't mind them charging what their licensing fee is. I also would >be fairly happy with them taking netbooting, appleshare and webojbects out >(as long as EOF was still in there - that's what I need). My problem is >that they seem to be going more toward the $500-just less than $1k charge. > They do? Where did you hear this? >> >> Of course I'd rather have it free, but I've never expected it >>as part of the $500 program.. the numbers just don't add up. > -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 17 Jan 1999 05:23:43 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77rs4v$nqv$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <915727752.966042@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <772sup$icp@shelob.afs.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> In-Reply-To: <1dlqdrm.3uk89q1mu7lt5N@ascend-tk-p24.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> On 01/16/99, Dirk Theisen wrote: >Hello, Scott! > >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >> As I've said in the past, the ADC programs are ripe for abuse. > >I don't want Mac OS <10 crap CDs. I don't want a full strength >AppleShare Server. I don't want a NetBoot server, I want a >Dev./Client/standalone machine with serial/ppp support. I'm sure I'm not >the only small developer relying on that. > >Call it "Prelude to Mac OS X", or whatever. I waited so damned long >already since DR2. It really drives me crazy to work around defects in >DR2 that have been solved /a long time ago/. > Well, I'm certainly aware of this.. as are almost 300 others who have written letters to me about it. http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.hm tl >> Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus >> all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. > >I understand that Apple wants to deliver a stripped down version of MXS >to prevent abuse. I don't understand that they will charge again for >that. Apple is going to have costs for each copy of this they ship. Think ADOBE. >I also don't understand that they don't communicate terms for >educational development licenses (this has a long tradition at least >here in germany - it's almost a secret). > They haven't communicated the terms because they haven't released the product, or so I've been told. >Dirk > >-- > http://theisen.home.pages.de/ > -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Date: 17 Jan 1999 05:16:23 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77rrn7$nmq$1@news.digifix.com> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <77p8ev$of9$1@news.digifix.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901160121340.10444-100000@mail.his.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901160736090.4356-100000@mail.his.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901160736090.4356-100000@mail.his.com> On 01/16/99, <gbh@middlemarch.net> wrote: >> > No, because Mac OS X Server only allows you to netboot Mac OS >> > 8.x machines. > >Could this be addressed by Apple releasing OSX-S on two CDs, >a Server and a Client CD, but sell them only as a set--not >separately. The license would allow deployment of the Server >CD on only one machine and allow deployment of the Client CD >on a limited number of machines, or charge a per seat fee >similar in price to OS 8.x for deployment of each client. >This would discourage individual consumers from purchasing >while encouraging system administrators to purchase it. >They would then get a limited end-user installed base that >has their own tech support. Well, remember that Apple has to pay a license fee to Adobe(spit) for every copy that is shipped and sold. So you'd need to pay something on the order of $20/seat for each client item, just for the DPS stuff.* * this is based on the assumption that YB/NT pricing has worked out as it was supposed to be, and that there are not additional license fees part of the YB/NT package, where you could expect more licensing fees potentially at work in a full OS version of Mac OS X Server. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 17 Jan 1999 05:25:35 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <36957D5C.61FED905@tone.ca> <7759uh$o44@shelob.afs.com> <36965B34.D3F845B3@tone.ca> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> On 01/16/99, John Jensen wrote: >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > >: Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus >: all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. > >Anyone should be welcome at $500 a head. Anyone who joins the developer >ranks becomes part of the story. "Five thousand new developers ... MacOS >X a raging success..." > So Apple has 5000 new developers and no sales of Mac OS X Server as a product. Doesn't seem like a winner situation to me. >Anything else is penny wise and pound foolish. There is only one company >in the PC softare industry which can affort to milk developers, and Apple >isn't it. > They'are also the only one that can afford to give away the world. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:39:07 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Re: YB Dead? Message-ID: <alex-1501991439070001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> Organization: Web Information Solutions Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy In article <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >The code is done. In fact, it has been done since September, when Apple was >still trying to assemble a Third-Party Solutions CD. But to answer your >primary question: No, "making a few bucks this year" is not necessarily a >good decision. For one thing, everyone wants the document translators, and >they would cost a sizable chunk of up-front money (around $25K) to obtain >for OSXS. Even if we were able to sell 500 copies of WriteUp this year -- >which I doubt is possible -- that amortizes to a cost of $50 per copy just >for the translators. > >Second, as I have mentioned in the past, it is *very* inefficient for a >software company to sell its products in dribs and drabs. There's not enough >volume to justify full-time support and fulfillment positions, which means >that other people must interrupt their primary responsibilities on an >unschedulable basis to deal with these issues. That in turn hurts your >primary business, for very little return. > >On the plus side (yes, there is a plus side), there are a few people who >either use WriteUp for its API (report writing and such) or would like to >incorporate its capabilities in a "private label" way. Those opportunities, >plus the possibility of convincing any new YB developers to use PasteUp and >WriteUp in the course of their other work, would be the primary reason to >hang around. The slim commercial market for the next year is clearly not >sufficient in its own right. Could you not sell it at a reduced price with no support or document translators? That would be better than nothing. I mean all my Word documents can be saved as RTF with NO loss of info since I do pure writing in Word, and then import all my writing into PageMaker for layout. I could do the same with Writeup/Pasteup. -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Q: OS User vs. OS Developer Message-ID: <3_eo2.9402$XY6.225155@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:57:42 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:58:23 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA I'd always thought OPENSTEP Developer for Mach included the OS--everything that was included in OPENSTEP User. Is this incorrect? Thanks, --Ed.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 17 Jan 1999 07:54:30 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <77s4vm$fg4$1@remarQ.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nn <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> In article <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com>, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >>Anyone should be welcome at $500 a head. Anyone who joins the >developer >>ranks becomes part of the story. "Five thousand new developers ... >MacOS >>X a raging success..." >> > > So Apple has 5000 new developers and no sales of Mac OS X >Server as a product. Since they're doing a PPC only product, and that with a limited range of G3 systems, they'll have offsetting sales on hardware. To an extent this can be worked around via licensing engineering; specify that copies made available via the developer program are not for deployment. I don't think major companies are going to engage in widespread piracy. If Apple is serious about establishing YB as a standard API they're going to have to get it into the hands of lots of developers. As it stands now, I'd have to drop about $3,000 to develop for YB--$1,000 for the software, and a couple grand for hardware. Even assuming Apple has a discount for developers, I'd still have to spend $500 or so to get into the program, and maybe a couple hundred for the "discount" MOSXS. If I want to do Java development, I can download 20 MB of stuff from Sun and have at it on existing hardware. I don't think Java would be where it is today if everyone who wanted to try it out had to spend $3,000 to get started. Maybe things will get better when Apple ships their "consumer" MOSX. But a capable, low cost, high volume development environment was one of the visions when NeXT took over Apple. They haven't delivered on that vision, and I'm a skeptic at this point. (One of the major problems in the marketing of OpenStep has been the lack of a second source. Without it, Apple/NeXT can engage in the sort of nonsense we've seen recently with impunity. Sadly, Sun dropped out, and GnuStep isn't there yet.) -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:52:33 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77s4rv$6o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> In article <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net>, "Steve Seidel" <seidel@enter.net> wrote: > Apple has been back on track > with their OS delivery schedules since Mac OS 7.6. Microsoft, OTH, never > meets deadlines. Yeah, right. Rhapsody (now known as Mac OS Sever) was suppost to ship during the summer of last year. Now it's scheduled to ship next month. So, assuming that it does ship next month, it will be about seven months late. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 17 Jan 1999 08:02:57 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77s5fh$p1o$3@news.xmission.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> <77s4vm$fg4$1@remarQ.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 1999 08:02:57 GMT mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > (One of the major problems in the marketing of OpenStep has been the > lack of a second source. [...]. Sadly, [...] > GnuStep isn't there yet.) Well, darn it, let's pull together and FIX IT! Stay tuned... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 03:05:51 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1701990305510001@ppp-20.ts-9.nyc.idt.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <slrn7a2md0.ira.mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu> In article <slrn7a2md0.ira.mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu>, mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: > In article <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, Michael Lankton wrote: > >In <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> Steve Hix wrote: > >> > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > >> > >> > > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) > >> > >> Try again. Do your homework.- > > > >You are right. The Open Group dropped development, but Apple is still > >working on it it appears. My bad. > > In a very limited sense. There is only one Apple person working on it > (Gilbert Colville), and I'm not sure if he's MkLinux full time. He's > mainly working on drivers I believe, and leaving Linux kernel work to > the "private" individuals (who are actually getting quite a bit done). It is open source after all, so if it dies it's not Apple's fault. If it were really that popular it would keep going without Apple's help. But LinuxPPC really is quite a bit better, so I don't really see any need for Mk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today. znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:28:15 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77s6uq$2fh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> In article <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > Wrong. If it doesn't exist it's vaporware. It doesn't exist. The final product does not exist. > > Otherwise > > a company could write one line of code, say its not complete, and > > it is suddenly "created". > > There is a lot more than one line of code in Rhapsody. That's a silly > example. It illustrates the slippery-slope nature of your definition. When is a product more than vapor? When it's 50% done, 90% done, etc? I consider it to be more than vapor only when it is 100% done. > AFAIK it *did* ship to developers. No it didn't. DR2 is not identical to the product that is suppost to ship in February. > That's still not the definition of vaporware. I've noticed the > tendency of some people to creatively redefine words to make it look as > if everyone does the same things Microsoft does. Please give us your definition of "vaporware". -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: ssc@stclair.com (Stephen St.Clair) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:44:40 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Message-ID: <36a1b0dc.665964@news.tiac.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <slrn7a2md0.ira.mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu> On 17 Jan 1999 03:31:39 GMT, mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: >In article <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, Michael Lankton wrote: >>In <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> Steve Hix wrote: >>> > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: >>> >>> > > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) >>> >>> Try again. Do your homework.- >> >>You are right. The Open Group dropped development, but Apple is still >>working on it it appears. My bad. > >In a very limited sense. There is only one Apple person working on it >(Gilbert Colville), and I'm not sure if he's MkLinux full time. He's >mainly working on drivers I believe, and leaving Linux kernel work to >the "private" individuals (who are actually getting quite a bit done). See Linux Journal, Jan 1999. Steve
From: ssc@stclair.com (Stephen St.Clair) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:46:47 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Message-ID: <36a1b128.742739@news.tiac.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77qa8d$d98$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> > >On the other hand, going with Alpha or SPARC is going to back you into the >same corner that a Mac will, since a SPARC binary won't exactly run on >your new Intel box, You can get a free copy of Solaris 7 for Intel now. Well, you have to pay the shipping, about $20. Steve
From: "tbc" <tbcass@dreamscape.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:54:41 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <77smij$dpe$1@remarQ.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1601990816540001@elk57.dol.net> <1dlptkd.x3mo65b0cpvlN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne wrote in message > >> You're forgeting that the beta license will expire soon and you'll need to >> reinstall everything. > >When did Wintrolls start worrying about license terms? > When the program ceases to function. Tom
From: "tbc" <tbcass@dreamscape.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:00:19 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <77smle$582$1@remarQ.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> Stephen E. Halpin wrote in message <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com>... >You can repeat it until your are blue in the face, but it doesnt >change the reality. If it isnt shipping, its vaporware. I've always considered "Vaporware" as something that is announced but never sees the light of day. Both OSX and Win 2000 are in development and are available in Beta. They are not Vapor ware. If development stops on either and they disappear, then they become vaporware. As long as there in continuing development neither is "vaporware" IMHO. Tom
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:57:14 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> In article <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > bchin@my-dejanews.com wrote: > >If Apple works out the licensing terms for the YB runtime for NT > >in the next month, will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for it? > >Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, > >regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? > > I know this will make me sound like Apple, but a final decision has not > been made yet. > I'm sorry Greg, but that makes you sound *exactly* like Apple, and if you're going to be consistent then what you say here (not to mention what you've said elsewhere) basically means "WU and PU are dead." I've put a lot of effort into using PasteUp over the last year on the understanding from your announcements that they at least would be apps which would make the transition from OPENSTEP to MacOS X relatively painless. Now you're cutting your customers off at the knees. Well, FrameMaker in BlueBox it is then. Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 17 Jan 1999 13:40:45 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77sp8t$56b$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : On 01/16/99, John Jensen wrote: : >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : > : >: Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus : >: all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. : > : >Anyone should be welcome at $500 a head. Anyone who joins the : developer : >ranks becomes part of the story. "Five thousand new developers ... : MacOS : >X a raging success..." : > : : So Apple has 5000 new developers and no sales of Mac OS X : Server as a product. 5000 x 500 = 2,500,00. John
From: piers@ilink.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: OS User vs. OS Developer Date: 17 Jan 1999 14:16:39 GMT Organization: Berlin.DE Message-ID: <916582599.281264@newsvl21> References: <3_eo2.9402$XY6.225155@news.san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: >I'd always thought OPENSTEP Developer for Mach included the OS-- >everything that was included in OPENSTEP User. Is this incorrect? > >Thanks, >--Ed. Openstep Developer has been an add on package that had to be installed on top of Openstep User. So you did have to purchase both products in order to be able to develop on Openstep. Piers -- Piers Uso Walter <piers@ilink.de> ilink Kommunikationssysteme GmbH
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:50:55 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Organization: Web Information Solutions Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy In article <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > >AIX won't run on a mac afaik. Sure it will. I installed AIX 4.x on a 9500 once. Worked OK. Needed the Apple AIX that had the ADB extensions. -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:06:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:06:07 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Alex Kac wrote: > In article <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > > > > >AIX won't run on a mac afaik. > > Sure it will. I installed AIX 4.x on a 9500 once. Worked OK. Needed the > Apple AIX that had the ADB extensions.- Does AIX use DPS or X11 for it's windowing system btw?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: mark@ns1.oaai.com (Mark Onyschuk) Subject: Re: YB Dead? Message-ID: <slrn7a3pmc.175.mark@ns1.oaai.com> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc. References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:32:17 GMT In article <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >In article <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com>, > "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >> bchin@my-dejanews.com wrote: >> >If Apple works out the licensing terms for the YB runtime for NT >> >in the next month, will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for it? >> >Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, >> >regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? >> >> I know this will make me sound like Apple, but a final decision has not >> been made yet. >> > >I'm sorry Greg, but that makes you sound *exactly* like Apple, and if you're >going to be consistent then what you say here (not to mention what you've >said elsewhere) basically means "WU and PU are dead." > >I've put a lot of effort into using PasteUp over the last year on the >understanding from your announcements that they at least would be apps which >would make the transition from OPENSTEP to MacOS X relatively painless. Now >you're cutting your customers off at the knees. Well, FrameMaker in BlueBox >it is then. > >Best wishes, > >mmalc. Hey, it's tough times for YB ISVs -- tougher for some than others. I'll cut small ISVs a break that I'm not willing to cut Apple. Right now, marching orders for the YB crowd appears to be "scramble to fit into the new marketing focus"** because it appears that Apple is just not interested in doing an OSX Server "Workstation" release that some were counting on. Me, I seem to have found an instance where the old saw "every change brings with it opportunity," seems to hold. If you can't deploy YB client apps today, why not look at WebObjects which is a "meta-platform" being sold with every copy of OSX Server. Regards, Mark ** man, is this deja-vu all over again or what?!
From: howardk@iswest.com Organization: Internet Specialties West, Inc. Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <17019912.1237@space.com> Date: 17 Jan 1999 17:35:15 GMT Control: cancel <17019912.1237@space.com> Message-ID: <cancel.17019912.1237@space.com> Sender: web@space.com Spam cancelled. Autocancel spam type: concert-spam
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <8d50.771d.24e@trhwr> ignore no reply Control: cancel <8d50.771d.24e@trhwr> Message-ID: <cancel.8d50.771d.24e@trhwr> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:39:09 +0000 Sender: mamax@mail.com <mamax@mail.com> From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk Organization: Annihilator v0.3 Spam (EMP) cancelled. Cancel ID: P9R^>3!#LATA;$>O(C7HIO',[JE@<^)-49QWWU)E&-8A_![9D*,2?8',
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:08:05 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77tcee$uvc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <hajfGWQzdqYS@cc.usu.edu> In article <hajfGWQzdqYS@cc.usu.edu>, edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > > Where is your evidence the YB is dead? > There you go with the "evidence" again. > Oh, well forgive me for asking you to give some sort of support for your claims. I guess if I turned round and accused you of child molesting on the basis that you never asserted you are not a child molester you'd think that was OK? > They had every opportunity to put up or shut up. > And they've decided to shut up. Instead of providing "evidence", > I'm simply looking at how Apple has behaved in the past under nearly > identical circumstances. > So am I. They said nothing about "Rhapsody" for almost a year, and now they're delivering. > And that right now is speaking volumes louder than anything they're > saying publicly. > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:44:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: macosx-talk@omnigroup.com From: "Aaron Smith" <asmith@nordnet.fr> To: Multiple recipients of list <macosx-talk@omnigroup.com> Subject: Recent Apple statements re: MacOS X Server and MacOSX This might be of interest to you all. It is pulled from a MacWorld Expo supplement of a leading France Mac Magazine, "Univers Macworld". It just came out today (Saturday Jan 16). (The translation's mine so don't sue me or Apple) ____________________________ "Questions for Ken Bereskin, Marketing Director for System Software Technology, Apple Computer, Inc." [p. VII] Bernard le Du of _Univers Macworld_: "Two years after the NeXT purchase, MacOS X Server is at last available. It was a long incubation period..." Ken Bereskin: "No, to accomplish what we have in two years is a big success. It's true that we are a little behind schedule based on what was announced at the time, but not much. And it was important to have a finished product, not just an engine, but something that our clients can immediately put to use. Today, with the announcement of MacOS X Server, Apple finally has a real server and is on top of the technologies in it." UM: "What are the main parts of MacOS X Server?" KB: "We decided to use the big industry standards wherever possible. Around the Mach 2.5 kernel (which provides PM, Memory protection, and process management), we integrated development tools and application services that seemed to be indespensable, especially with regards to Internet/Intranet with Apache and WebObjects. UM: "That seems very "Unix-y"... Don't you think that your Prepress and creative market customers will be lost?" KB: "It's true that we have a Mach kernel and that BSD 4.4 is an important part of MOSX Server. But all that is almost entirely hidden from those who don't want to know about it, under a UI that is very much like MacOS 8.5 The integration of the two worlds is not yet complete, of course, but enough to make it easy to get used to. You know, we did some tests. If you buy a hardware/software bundle, your network services can be operational in 5 minutes! If you install MacOS X Server on an existing G3 model, everything will be up and runnning in 30 minutes. We have created server configuration assistants (similar to what is in MacOS) that will greatly help someone with no Unix experience. UM: "Aren't you afraid that MacOS X Server 1.0 will seem too much like a transitional OS? Everyone knows that another MacOS X Server and client should be out by the end of 1999..." KB: "Not at all. The future MacOS X will simply be a new version of MacOS X (Server), an evolution, a continuation. For the clients who install MacOS X Server tomorrow, the transition will be completely painless. Just an update/upgrade. Because, as you know, it uses the same building blocks and the same system and application services as the future OSX (client). Remember, from MacOS version 1.0 in 1984 to 8.5.1 of 1999, there were tens of OS upgrades. We are only at version 1 of MacOS Server..." _____________________________ There is a picture of Ken with a Net-booted iMac showing the login prompt. A page later, there is another interview with Jean-Michel Lunatti from Apple Europe.... ____________________________ UM: "Why is the European release date of Mac OS X Server still up in the air?" Jean-Michel Lunatti: "In order to successfully sell a server product, you need three things. First, you need a good server OS. We have 2 server products: first is MacOS 8.5 + AppleShare IP 6.1 + Apple Network administrator Toolkit 3.5. Now we also have MacOS X Server, based on the Mach kernel and reliable technologies like Unix and WebObjects. The second thing you need is a high-end hardware platform. With the new G3 series, we've absolutely got that covered. But hardware and software are not the only two things you need. You have to put into place a mechanism to sell and support these servers. Of course, we inherited Apple Enterprise from NeXT, but that isn't enough. The support staff of AppleCare aren't trained for it, and neither are the resellers. So even though the software is practically at Golden Master, we are behind in building up the support infrastructure and that is why we are being unclear about release dates." UM: " What markets are you targeting in France?" JML: "Taking a close look at the architecture of MacOS X Server will give you the answer. We are targetting two markets for now, the internet server market (our Apache/WebObjects/Java package is really strong here) and the market for NetBooting (classrooms, libraries, student labs) which is essentially the NC market, even though we are not using those terms." UM: "How will MacOS X Server evolve?" JML: "By integrating the work done in parallel by the MacOS X team (the client system that Apple willl release by the end of the year). It is obvious that the future versions of MacOS X Server will use the Mach 3.0 kernel, and therefore support SMP. For the users, the transition will as transparent as possible. For our software developers, we are not emphasising Yellow Box right now because these APIs will be heavily revised for the future MacOS X. In the future MacOS X, even though the BlueBox, Yellow Box, and Java Box will continue to exist as API layers, they will dissapear as seperate execution environments and become one unified desktop." [p. VIII] _________________________ It is interesting to see a few things. These are official Apple guys that are candidly answering journalist questions. They aren't being evasive or obscure. They are shooting straight on several levels... 1) MacOS X Server is targeted at 2 specific markets: an AppleShare/netboot server, and a quick setup web server for folks who don't need multi-tiered Suns. They aren't going after Sun or IBM in the backroom. 2) MacOS X Server will be sold much like the iMac... as a hardware/software SOLUTION. They aren't in the freelance OS-writing business. Right or wrong, they are in the business of providing their customers (creative guys and .edu) a short, sweet, and pretty economical route from offline existence to Online Existence. They'll sell it seperately, but prefer to sell a bundle. 3) One reason for a nebulous February release date is because they are trying to get the support mechanism in place for a potential high-selling server product. 4) MacOS X Server is not a dead-end product. It will continue as a product line, using the same technology base as OSX Consumer but being bundled/marketed differently. 5) Mac OS X consumer is a revision/update/enhancement of OSX Server. Yellow box will be there, carbon, blue box, etc., but all integrated to be user-level transparent. No big surprise to those able to read between the lines of past announcements. 6) The most interesting thing to you YB developers may be the claim that part of the YB de-emphasis is due to the fact that they don't want new developers coming in until the API is done being "thouroughly revised/updated." 7) No mention of OSX Server Intel. Now a few comments about general gripes. "Productising MOSX Intel" : Everyone is flying off the handle about this. All I have to say (and it is probably what Apple would say) is this: If you want to run Intel so bad, then run NT. If you want to run MacOS X, then buy a new (or used) G3. YB/NT is coming with as small a license fee as Ad*be will allow. They are not going to let developers sell their YB apps on NT before OSX. Incidentally, I have a feeling that Adobe is being REALLY crappy about this DPS licensing deal, and that much of this YB release delay is due to that. Think about what Apple has done/been forced to do wrt Yellow Box/DPS 1) Rip out the entire display system of their OS in order to be able to sell it to the mass market. 2) Stop pressing RDR 2 CD because of a "third party license expiring" 3) Stop releasing developer builds altogether. 4) Highly restrict sales of MSOX Server (via pricing/bundling and possible burial of Intel version). 5) Repeatedly delay YB release due to "nailing down licensing issues". 6) YB only released with $1500 WO product All of these things make sense if Apple is being held to an absurdly high licensing fee for DPS. If that is the case, then they may be eating the fee as much as they can and trying to spare losing face and hurting developers. It doesn't look to me like Apple is trying to kill Yellow Box. On the contrary... they are doing everything they can (including re-writing from the ground up a major system component) to keep it *alive*. I have a strong feeling that once DPS is gone later this year (should be around WWDC, hmmm....) Apple is going to be a lot more laid back about YB and Developer releases. Of course Apple isn't going to come out and say it and publicly badmouth Adobe. That might be suicide. It is a lot more coherent to see it this way than to attribute everything to Steve Jobs' temper or something funny in the water in Cupertino. As to why the hell Amelio bought NeXT without getting Warnock's signature in blood on a contract, I have no idea. So in summary (whew), I will second what mmalc has to say. If you seriously want Intel, the write a nice, firm, convincing business letter or two. And/Or go check out the to-do list on www.gnustep.org . Or go install NT and Visual Basic 6. All of those things would be more productive than yet another post on how. Just for the record, although not a "real" developer, I got burned by Rhapsody in my own small way. I bought a Powerbook 1400 back in spring '97 based on Ellen Hancock and Gil Amelio's promise that Rhapsody would run on it in 6-9 months. Needless to say it didn't (and won't) happen. I will nevertheless upgrade to another Mac this summer, probably, because I know now that I will go one of two ways by the end of the year: MacOS X client or dual boot MacOS 8.x/Linux PPC. -- ------------------------------------------------------ Aaron Smith Dunkerque, France ------------------------------------------------------ -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: YB Dead? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <36a23dbc.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 17 Jan 99 19:45:00 GMT malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com>, > "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > > bchin@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > >If Apple works out the licensing terms for the YB runtime for NT > > >in the next month, will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for it? > > >Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, > > >regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? > > > > I know this will make me sound like Apple, but a final decision has not > > been made yet. > > > I'm sorry Greg, but that makes you sound *exactly* like Apple, and if you're > going to be consistent then what you say here (not to mention what you've > said elsewhere) basically means "WU and PU are dead." Not quite. AFS doesn't have a history of killing products the way Apple does.
Message-ID: <36A240E0.8DF8849@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Grab & QuickTime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:13:52 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:03:54 CDT Wouldn't it be cool if Apple made Grab work with QuickTime so that you could show someone what you're doing on your Mac OS X box?! It could grab stills, live recordings of the screen and stream it to people over QT4. Then people who want to see what the OS is like could try it. Also, they could make a Timbuktu/Hydra like functionality for remote computing too... -Eric
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:33:56 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Organization: Web Information Solutions Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy In article <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: >Does AIX use DPS or X11 for it's windowing system btw? Definately not DPS. -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: 17 Jan 1999 21:13:38 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <77tjq2$afh$1@news.xmission.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 1999 21:13:38 GMT malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com>, > "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > > bchin@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > >If Apple works out the licensing terms for the YB runtime for NT > > >in the next month, will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for it? > > >Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, > > >regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? > > > > I know this will make me sound like Apple, but a final decision has > > not been made yet. > > I'm sorry Greg, but that makes you sound *exactly* like Apple, and if > you're going to be consistent then what you say here (not to mention > what you've said elsewhere) basically means "WU and PU are dead." > > I've put a lot of effort into using PasteUp over the last year on the > understanding from your announcements that they at least would be > apps which would make the transition from OPENSTEP to MacOS X > relatively painless. Now you're cutting your customers off at the > knees. Well, FrameMaker in BlueBox it is then. But people shouldn't be so hasty because even if Greg "sounds" like Apple, he isn't Apple. His past history paints him to be much more reliable than Apple. Pure and simple. Besides even if WU and PU were dead as far as coming from AFS (and as far as I know, right now that isn't necessarily the case), I'm sure someone would pick them up and continue the product...I can think of a lot of people who would consider doing so. It certainly could happen; after all, Greg hasn't been lighthoused. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:22:39 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> In article <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com>, > Apple has stated that OSX would have a POSIX layer. > Note, however, that according to one of the engineers they're not going to bother to go through all the hassles of getting official POSIX certification. It should be properly compliant, but for some contracts I presume this would be insufficient? Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <QEso2.4574$xq4.1210@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:31:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:31:28 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Alex Kac wrote: > In article <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > > >Does AIX use DPS or X11 for it's windowing system btw? > > Definately not DPS.- It was a legitimate question, Solaris uses DPS, and I was under the impression that Irix did too or has in the past.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury_remove_this@istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> Message-ID: <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:39:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:39:52 EDT In article <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com>, gbh@middlemarch.net wrote: >Although Apple is selling OSX-S as a server, how large >will the end user installed base be? If they are bought by >educational intitutions or corporate firms, won't many of >them net boot clusters of client Macs with OSX-S? Interesting question. Well here's some partions of the market: a) new MacOS users looking for servers Probably a larger market than the current 10 to 50k or so OpenStep users. I think it's reasonable to expect 50 to 100k servers I'd guess. However few of these will be used for serious application boxes. b) OpenStep users with Macs A small group, maybe 5k? I'd expect all of them to run it. They'll be looking for apps c) OpenStep users with PC's that move to Mac Given realistic (small end) numbers in the 10k range, and a guess of about 1/2 that will switch, it's another 5k or so. So you're looking at a market of some 5k to 10k OS users and another larger group that will be only partially interested in applications. Still any way I look at it it's still a larger market than today. Maury
Message-ID: <36A26DC9.AF00D2DB@nstar.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:10:01 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz wrote: [cut] > So you're looking at a market of some 5k to 10k OS users and another larger > group that will be only partially interested in applications. Still any way I > look at it it's still a larger market than today. No offense is intended here, but how does this math work? 5k to 10k + partial group is larger than the 10k to 50k you quoted earlier? I don't understand. MJP
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:09:42 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> In article <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com>, alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) wrote: > In article <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > > >Does AIX use DPS or X11 for it's windowing system btw? > > Definately not DPS. AIX ships with X11, like any common vendor UNIX. Most installations I've seen have Motif installed, and use mwm as the windowing system. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:40:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:40:26 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:- > AIX ships with X11, like any common vendor UNIX. Most installations I've seen > have Motif installed, and use mwm as the windowing system.- Oh really? How are Solaris and Digital Unix not "common vendor" unices? They both use DPS. If I'm not mistaken, Irix either does or has as well, although I'm not positive about that. Hmmm, the unix with more seats in education and scientific institutions than any other unix (Solaris) isn't a "common vendor UNIX" by your definition. I don't think this guy knows wtf he's talking about. Does anyone know if AIX uses DPS or X11?
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:26:05 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <77tv2j$kt6@shelob.afs.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >I'm sorry Greg, but that makes you sound *exactly* like Apple, >and if you're going to be consistent then what you say here >(not to mention what you've said elsewhere) basically means >"WU and PU are dead." Leaving aside the possiblity that sometimes I may be overly argumentative to get people's attention, the fact remains that "a decision has not yet been made" means only that: a decision has not yet been made. I hope by now that my reputation as a straight shooter would allow people to believe that if I meant to say "WU and PU are dead," I would come right out and say it. Unfortunately, I failed to post a response that I made in private email to Michael, so I will take the liberty of doing so here. I hope it clarifies my thinking. ==================== Michael had written in an earlier message: >In a dtp environment like mine the main interest will be PasteUp. Yeah, of my two products, I am inclined to believe that PasteUp may have a fighting chance. For one thing, we get more $/copy, so we don't need to sell as much to make it viable. And except in shops where Quark is thoroughly entrenched as a scripted part of the production process, there may be more willingness to experiment with a new package. Especially since PasteUp does have a (deserved) reputation for excellent typography and ease of use. >By the way, a thought just occurred to me, maybe the >MacLink+ people (Dataviz) would be interested in buying >the MasterSoft stuff. Maybe a suggestion is in order. Since they are competitors, I doubt Inso/MasterSoft would offer their code at the same price to DataViz that they do to me. ================ Malc, I apologize again for mis-characterizing your responsibilities at P&L. Even if you're upset about that, it does *not* give you the right to put words in my mouth. My response to Michael is an accurate reflection of my current thinking. And I can echo Don Yachtman's comments: If AFS decided not to continue these products, several parties have expressed recent interest in taking them over in our stead. They will not disappear unless the operating system on which they are based also disappears. Greg
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 18 Jan 1999 00:34:31 GMT Organization: The WebDragon Message-ID: <77tvin$jah$2@208.236.239.25> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> In article <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris Black) wrote: > In article <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net>, seidel@enter.net says... > > > > > > ---------- > > In article <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net>, > > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > > > > > > Joe Ragosta et ALl are poo pooing INtergraph. I think its great they are > > > courting the Apple market. Here is why, feel free to argue with it: > > > Big business is very pro NT. Their is a huge segment within this that > > > WANTS a option to this. Mac hardware, at this time IS NOT A OPTION. > > > > > > This segment HAD a huge panacea, its name rhapsody for intel. > > > Apple dumbly killed it, so let Intergraph try to woe mac users to NT > > > > I have nothing against Intergraph, but what does big business have to do > > with the graphics market? NT has made inroads on this market mostly because > > of NT has a better server offering than Apple. With Mac OS X server coupled > > with Mac OS X, this is likely to swing the other way. NT has it's > > advantages, but so does Mac OS. NT's advantages are mostly with servers, > > etc. Further, some customers are requiring the buzzwords (PMT, protected > > memory, etc.) Whereas the Macs advantages are with graphics (i.e. system > > level color sync, etc.) Once MacOS X comes out, NT looses whatever > > advantage it once had. > > Could you please expand on the "etc." part in your statement about Mac > graphic superiority. Exactly what are the Mac's advantages at graphics > over a PC? While you're at it, please tell me exactly how the Can you spell *integrated graphics hardware and software from the ground up* ? I thought you could. The Mac is *designed* to produce quality output and the tools (software and hardware) that have sprung up around this have only furthered this. Anyone remember the first PostScript laserprinter and how everyone thought Apple was crazy for wooing Adobe at the time? completely different tune now. The whole operating system is based around graphics output and a GUI from the hardware level (having stuff in the hardware to support it) up. always has been. > currently vaporous MacOS X (or even the shipping one that's still about a > year off) will negate NT's advantage. I'll leave this portion to those people that understand it better. But as I see it Apple will make that final leapfrog over this "advantage" when they release their server software, and that'll be the end of this supposed advantage. Then you Windows advocates will have to find something else to *bleat and squawk* about. -- send mail to Hath (at) cyberops (dot) org instead of the above address. this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
From: nospam@devnull.com (Hath) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 18 Jan 1999 00:39:19 GMT Organization: The WebDragon Message-ID: <77tvrn$jah$3@208.236.239.25> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <joe.ragosta-1601990816540001@elk57.dol.net> <1dlptkd.x3mo65b0cpvlN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> In article <1dlptkd.x3mo65b0cpvlN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > > > In article <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net>, c@c.com (Chris > > Black) wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > You're forgeting that the beta license will expire soon and you'll need to > > reinstall everything. > > When did Wintrolls start worrying about license terms? I guess this is what scares them the most about the Mac. They won't be able to pirate 90% of their software anymore, if they decided to switch. GET A FUCKIN JOB! *whinebleatmoan* -- send mail to Hath (at) cyberops (dot) org instead of the above address. this is to prevent spamming. e-mail reply-to's have been altered to prevent scan software from extracting my address for the purpose of spamming me, which I hate with a passion bordering on obsession.
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <casper-1701992051360001@192.168.1.3> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:51:35 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:52:16 CDT Everyone is losing to Dell. HP, Compaq, & IBM are all fighting for their survival against the direct market vendors who sell directly to the customer instead of through the traditional retail/distribution channels. And by the same token everyone is also losing to NT. IBM's Lotus products, Novell Netware, etc... are all being outsold by NT and Back Office. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, in the White House?" Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone together." Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica blew him!
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:52:39 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:53:21 CDT In article <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >In article <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" ><liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > >> If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it >> finally comes out, it needs: >> >> * LOW price > >Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many >MIS types haven't figured that out. You're wrong. TCO isn't important. Return on Investment is. >> * FULL Windows file/networking compatibility > >Why? If you have a Unix or NT server with TCP/IP, the Mac gets along just >fine. Why mess with Windows crap? > >-- >Regards, > >Joe Ragosta -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net http://www.nb.net/~casper/ Windows 95: (noun) 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 18 Jan 1999 02:01:19 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <77u4lf$s02$1@hecate.umd.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <76sra6$8o4$3@hecate.umd.edu> <76tr6k$6cd@mira.knirsch.de> <76udhh$9sd$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77pprh$1jm$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> Richard Kulisz (richk@nexus.carleton.ca) wrote: : David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: : >Liang-Shing Ng (lsn95r@mira.knirsch.de) wrote: : >: David T. Wang : ><davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: : >: >Japan's farming system is very inefficient, (and Americans, responsible : >: >for setting is up, are partly to blame apparently) Japan has had a : >: Yet again, American can't seem to think of alternative paradigm to : >: "efficiency, capitalism, efficiancy, capitalism". : If you actually care about efficiency then Japanese farming is very : efficient. Small farms are the best way to achieve the maximum possible : production of agricultural products for a given land area. The reason : Japanese rice is so expensive is because of the low unemployment in : Japan, but that is also efficient; an efficient use of the available : labour supply. So under any realistic definition of efficiency, Japan : is very efficient. The definition of "efficiency" obviously depends on the resource you are trying to conserve. In US, the use of machinery conserves the labor resources, and much more food per worker-hour is produced than in Japan. Even if we change the criteria to the food production per unit land area, the use of heavy machinery does not necessarily sacrifice the "efficiency per unit land" ratio. The labor thus saved could be redirected to other tasks. With regards to the unemployment, perhaps you just missed the news, Unemployment rate in Japan has just exceeded those in the US. : What is the economic definition of efficiency? Well, if you crack open : any first year economics textbook then it will tell you and you will : know that a system is efficient when it maximizes the number of trades : between buyers (who may not want to buy the cheap junk you produced) : and sellers (who may not want to sell their heirlooms) naturally passing : by middlemen who reap huge profits. People without brain damage will : naturally ask themselves "hey, what the hell are economists *thinking*?!" : Well, the answer to that my friends is that this definition of efficiency : allows economists to conclude that capitalism is efficient, and since it : has no other virtue, then rejecting this definition leads one to reject : capitalism. Fortunately, I've had such a first year economics course to understand that such trades you speak of work if the value of products are roughly the same. The formula does not work if group A wants to trade junk for group B's family heirloom. The question is then, are Thai, Taiwanese, and/or American rice filled with rat droppings, and Japanese rice, the paragon of quality? Is this quality worth 10% extra? 100% extra? or 1000% extra? : Unlike say communism (not to be confused with the Soviets) which has the : virtue of defining Justice. Or socialism which defines What People Wnat. : Or anarchism which maximizes Freedom. Or technocracy which does the Best : Thing Possible. Or even /fascism/ which is Effective. Frankly, the only : useless ideology under the sun is capitalism and that's because its only : utility lies in justifying the actions of self-serving billionaires. Unfortunately, Capitalism is nearest to a working system that human beings have come up with that is deemed acceptable by most of the people in the world. The "Chinese Socialism" system looks suspeciously like Capitalism. And within China, the areas engaged in the "new Socialism" are propering, and the areas which are not, are not. We can modify the systems so that "naked Capitalism", as practiced in late 19th and early 20th century in the US, does not happen, however, any system setup designed for "fairness" (such as communism) inevitably enforces the "fairness" by defining a system of operations, then maintains the "fairness" by rigorous enforcement of that status quo. The best compromise the human beings have come up with appears to be a combination of Capitalism and Socialism, where we take advantage of the "good" parts of Capitalism in creating dynamicism in society, then enforcing a minimal "social justice" standard. Perhaps you can come up with a new system which would preserve the dynamicism and evolutionary forces provided by Capitalism, and yet maintain the social justices you seek. : The high price of rice in japan is only a worry to those same billionaires. Definitely untrue. I am not a billionaire, my networth at this moment is definitely under 1 million. say, way under. Yet, I am concerned about the high price of rice in Japan. Why? Because I go to the grocery store, and I look at the price of rice, and I get sticker shock. And believe me, I've been eating rice all of my life, and the stuff being sold isn't the gourmet stuff. Those very same unemployed people, who are supposed to be protected in this protected system, now cannot afford to purchase enough rice to survive. In this case, I am arguing for "fairness" from another prespective. Was it fair for Japan to be able to export cars to the US, then turn around and tack a 1000% tariff on rice from US? Some have pointed to the cultural significance of rice to the Japanese, those are the same who have forgotten the cultural significance of cars to Americans. (no, I'm not joking. There was a recent PBS series on American's love affair with cars since its inception) Then there is the issue about Japanese farmers, whose counterparts would be members of UAW in GM/Ford plants. So from this perspective, there would be a difficult justification of the high price of rice in Japan. : -- : Why are Japanese corporations obsessed with market share and unconcerned about : profits? Because market share means jobs for Japanese, and mere shareholders, : who did little or nothing to finance or run the business, have no right to : criticize the management or ask for dividends. Well-known Japanese companies : routinely hire gangsters to rough up shareholders who ask embarrassing : questions at company meetings. -- Social Contradictions of Japanese Capitalism -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: "Bill Frisbee" <bfrisbee@nospam.webengine-db.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <KXwo2.3179$wm2.7884281@lwnws01.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:25:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:24:42 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne AIX (4.3) ships with X11R6. Bill F. Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote in message news:Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com... >In <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:- >> AIX ships with X11, like any common vendor UNIX. Most installations I've >seen >> have Motif installed, and use mwm as the windowing system.- > >Oh really? How are Solaris and Digital Unix not "common vendor" unices? >They both use DPS. If I'm not mistaken, Irix either does or has as well, >although I'm not positive about that. >Hmmm, the unix with more seats in education and scientific institutions than >any other unix (Solaris) isn't a "common vendor UNIX" by your definition. >I don't think this guy knows wtf he's talking about. Does anyone know if AIX >uses DPS or X11? >
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:02:51 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77u88m$lkg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77tv2j$kt6@shelob.afs.com> In article <77tv2j$kt6@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > Malc, I apologize again for mis-characterizing your responsibilities at > P&L. Even if you're upset about that, > Oh heavens, I'm not upset about that, my response was solely intended as a "point of information", not a flame... > it does *not* give you the right to put words in my mouth. > ... my apologies then if my response was again unclear (and "leaving aside the possiblity that sometimes may be overly argumentative to get people's attention" :-) -- I did intend a strict predicate when I wrote "if you're going to be consistent". The implication was, as you and others point out, be reasons for applying somewhat different rules to what you say publicly vs. what Apple says. > Yeah, of my two products, I am inclined to believe that PasteUp may > have a fighting chance. For one thing, we get more $/copy, so we don't > need to sell as much to make it viable. And except in shops where Quark > is thoroughly entrenched as a scripted part of the production process, > there may be more willingness to experiment with a new package. > Have you considered looking at the new NSDocument architecture and the scripting mechanism? My guess would be that it should be relatively straightforward to convert PU (and indeed most YB apps) to use NSDocument (though this is optional), and then to add at least some level of support for scripting, which doesn't look like rocket science to implement. For many other applications the fact that scripts on McOX-S can only be called from the BlueBox may be a significant handicap, for PU -- given its market -- this may not be a problem at all. Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: dave cunningham <cngnhmwa@cdsnet.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:21:53 +0000 Organization: MegaNews! Message-ID: <36A2A8C0.1ECC293@cdsnet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 03:21:38 GMT i'd propose "fluxware" for this; in fact, lots of it comes out nearly totally fluxxed, and some folks get fluxxed by it. regards, -=c'ham=- Michael wrote: > "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: > > > <snip> > > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > > >created. > > > > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, > > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not > > be in the first shipping release. > > <snip> > > > -Steve > > Looks like we need a new term here to fill the gap between "vapor" and > "solid"(finished). How about "liquid". Seems to work. Yup. Now should I copyright it, or > release it into public domain. Hmmm. > > Michael Monner
Message-ID: <36A2AD71.C963117E@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <36a1113a.0@news3.uswest.net> <36A16AB1.CDB58975@yahoo.com> <36A17576.B19763E8@mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:59:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:59:56 PDT Eric A. Dubiel wrote: > Rex Riley wrote: > > Featuresets is Apple's differentiation and value-add in the PC forest. Where > > is the customer's motivation to buy a Mac if they can get PasteUp, Quark, > > Photoshop and Tailor for NT? Approach Apple with exclusive Mac featuresets, or > > primary debut on the Mac for features for X mos before migrating to PC's and > > cross-compile may become more attractive. > > What are you smoking?! Ahhh...(puts down cigar) wait a minute Apple have not done cross-compile for YB, publicly. Goalposts are not interchangeable. QT argument doesn't get us to YB cross-compiles just because its possible. > Apple's already done the equivalent of this with > QuickTime, and it seems to be for the better. I would advocate a > similar cross-platform strategy. There's nothing sexy about YB. YellowBox is not going to build Apple brand identity, awareness or value. > Now we have QT for Java - now how > about GNU YB/OpenStep - *facilitated by Apple*! Apple has strategically calculated an "embrace and extend" plan by integrating YB into JAVA directly. Anyone in love with YB is advised to begin a rewrite of their killer app to Java/YB API's when Apple releases the YB onto the World stage as Java API's. That way Apple facilitates *unresolved issues* like GNU YB/Openstep in one clean sweep. Depending on how they release them they may also capture fee, too! -r who smokes Zino's
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: YB Dead? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77tv2j$kt6@shelob.afs.com> <77u88m$lkg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <36a2b559.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 18 Jan 99 04:15:21 GMT malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > Have you considered looking at the new NSDocument architecture and the > scripting mechanism? My guess would be that it should be relatively > straightforward to convert PU (and indeed most YB apps) to use NSDocument > (though this is optional), and then to add at least some level of support for > scripting, which doesn't look like rocket science to implement. > For many other applications the fact that scripts on McOX-S can only be > called from the BlueBox may be a significant handicap, for PU -- given its > market -- this may not be a problem at all. Will there be any scripting support on Windows?
Date: 18 Jan 1999 04:55:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19990118045558.22893.qmail@hades.rpini.com> From: Anonymous <nobody@remailer.ch> Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above. It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software. Please report problems or inappropriate use to the remailer administrator at <admin@remailer.ch>. Subject: PROOF: Jesus *is* Lord of the Sabbath!=_&(_* Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,pnw.forsale,soc.couples.wedding,rec.music.beatles,rec.crafts.beads,alt.messianic,alt.prophecies.nostradamus,alt.astrology,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.prophecies.cayce,alt.apocalypse,alt.bible.prophecy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,pnw.forsale,soc.couples.wedding,rec.music.beatles,rec.crafts.beads Mail-To-News-Contact: postmaster@nym.alias.net Organization: mail2news@nym.alias.net Here's absolutely irrefutable, scientifically-verifiable evidence that plainly demonstrates Jesus the Nazarene called the Christ to be the One and Only Messiah of the Hebrew Old Testament(TaNaKh). I discovered these facts through very careful, exhaustive research and deduction by comparing extant secular-historical evidences with the testimony which was so faithfully recorded in the ancient Hebrew Canon, which necessarily includes BOTH Old and New Covenant Scriptures. Please enjoy reading, and feel free to copy any or all portions of my article and distrubute it freely. Furthermore BE ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY SURE to save this article and forward it to your favorite newsgroups as often as you like. The time *is* short, so be sure to get the word out: Jesus Christ *is* LORD! :) Before proceeding with this article, please note the following: -All calculations are based on precision astronomical data. -Ancient calendar records correlated with lunisolar phases. -Location data preset to Jerusalem for all calculations -All Jewish lunisolar calendar dates are kosher(formal) -Precession epoch datum set for each date specified * * * Lord of the Sabbath -- A Closer Look The "going forth of the commandment(Artaxerxes I[Longimanus]) to restore and to (re)build Jerusalem..."[Dan 9:25]: Julian day: 1554766 Day of week: Thursday, September 19, 457 BC Jewish calendar: 1 Tishri 3305(1st day of the 1st[regnal] month) New Moon: 12:58:47 AM(JD 1554765.45749) Phase: 0.1%, Phase angle: 175.68ø Az: 29:59:12; Alt: -45:47:25 RA: 11:32:40; Dec: 7:48:27 Ecliptic Lon: 170:36:51; Lat: 4:24:29 Galactic Lon: 323:56:44; Lat: 55:24:14 Rising: Sep 19, 457 BC; 5:26:07 AM Transit: Sep 19, 457 BC; 11:56:50 AM Setting: Sep 19, 457 BC; 6:19:57 PM Notes: ref. Ezra 7:6-26, ibid; note also that 1 Tishri must not fall on Sun, Wed or Fri. Jesus born in Bethlehem w/"his star[rising]in the east": Julian day: 1720551 Day of week: Monday, August 12, 3 BC Jewish calendar: 3 Elul 3758(lunisolar) New Moon: 12:44:01 AM(JD 1720549.44723) Phase: 0.0%, Phase angle: 179.38ø Az: 21:07:02; Alt: -39:38:16 RA: 9:10:05; Dec: 15:56:28 Ecliptic Lon: 135:10:08; Lat: -0:32:36 Galactic Lon: 245:20:41; Lat: 55:37:20 Rising: Aug 11, 3 BC; 5:04:05 AM Transit: Aug 11, 3 BC; 11:56:05 AM Setting: Aug 11, 3 BC; 6:40:06 PM Notes: Jupiter-Venus conjunction in Leo. Wise men(Magi) visit Herod(morning)/10-month old Jesus(sunset): Julian day: 1720860 Day and Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2 BC Jewish calendar: 17/18 Tammuz 3759(lunisolar) New Moon: 2:50:24 PM(JD 1720845.03500) Phase: 0.1%, Phase angle: 175.90ø Az: 276:04:25; Alt: 43:53:38 RA: 4:18:48; Dec: 25:28:02 Ecliptic Lon: 67:15:12; Lat: 3:46:00 Galactic Lon: 185:39:26; Lat: 6:20:12 Rising: Jun 2, 2 BC; 3:49:21 AM Transit: Jun 2, 2 BC; 11:13:58 AM Setting: Jun 2, 2 BC; 6:42:42 PM *Full moon: 8:06:58 PM(JD 1720860.25484) Phase: 99.9%, Phase angle: 3.84ø Az: 134:39:11; Alt: 13:45:53 RA: 17:29:03; Dec: -27:03:40 Ecliptic Lon: 263:06:02; Lat: -3:33:05 Galactic Lon: 13:57:33; Lat: -19:56:34 Rising: Jun 17, 2 BC; 6:36:53 PM Transit: Jun 17, 2 BC; 11:35:11 PM Setting: Jun 18, 2 BC; 4:34:01 AM Notes: Jupiter-Venus conjunction in Leo. Caesar Augustus died: Julian day: 1726402 Day and Date: Sunday, 19 August 14 AD Jewish calendar: 5 Elul 3774(lunisolar) Notes: Tiberius not yet Caesar. Tiberius made Caesar Imperator(Emperor): Julian day: 1726431 Day and Date: Monday, September 17, 14 AD Jewish calendar: 5 Tishri 3775(lunisolar) New Moon: 5:54:43 AM(JD 1726426.66300) Phase: 0.0%, Phase angle: 178.50ø Az: 87:39:23; Alt: 7:16:36 RA: 11:19:22; Dec: 5:48:28 Ecliptic Lon: 168:22:59; Lat: 1:16:10 Galactic Lon: 307:29:26; Lat: 57:37:38 Rising: Sep 13, 14 AD; 5:15:01 Am Transit: Sep 13, 14 AD; 11:41:17 AM Setting: Sep 13, 14 AD; 5:59:26 PM Notes: Compare Jesus' baptism date[Luke 3:1]. New Moon[Heb. Molad] coincident with Vernal Equinox: Julian day: 1730266 Day and Date: Sunday, March 18, 25 AD Jewish calendar: 28 AdarI 3785 (1 Nisan delayed 2 days) New Moon: 8:07:30 AM(JD 1730265.75521) Phase: 0.0%, Phase angle: 177.94ø Az: 113:27:40; Alt: 26:56:03 RA: 23:48:07; Dec: -3:37:11 Ecliptic Lon: 355:49:28; Lat: -2:07:17 Galactic Lon: 139:26:24; Lat: -54:31:38 Rising: Mar 18, 25 AD; 5:49:08 AM Transit: Mar 18, 25 AD; 11:53:14 AM Setting: Mar 18, 25 AD; 6:03:43 PM *Sun Rising: Mar 18, 25 AD; 5:43:52 AM Transit: Mar 18, 25 AD; 11:42:47 AM Setting: Mar 18, 25 AD; 5:42:10 PM Notes: Thirteenth intercalary month(Adar II/Veadar) added in years 2, 5, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 18 over the nineteen-year cycle in Jesus' day, proving that 31 AD was not a leap year. Jesus' 30th birthday: Julian day: 1731155 Day and Date: Sunday, August 24, 27 AD Jewish calendar: 3 Elul 3787(lunisolar) New Moon: 2:09:28 PM(JD 1731151.00658) Phase: 0.0%, Phase angle: 177.86ø Az: 254:17:20; Alt: 51:43:00 RA: 9:47:00; Dec: 15:42:50 Ecliptic Lon: 143:39:49; Lat: 2:03:30 Galactic Lon: 257:55:04; Lat: 61:00:22 Rising: Aug 20, 27 AD; 4:31:40 AM Transit: Aug 20, 27 AD; 11:32:27 AM Setting: Aug 20, 27 AD; 6:26:46 PM Notes: Jewish calendar birthday, Jesus eligible for priesthood. Jesus baptized into ministry at river Jordan, exactly 14 regnal years + 1 day into "reign of Tiberius Caesar", and 483 tropical years [@365.242199d/y] + 1 day from commandment): Julian day: 1731180 Day and Date: Thursday, September 18, 27 AD Jewish calendar: 1 Tishri 3788(Day of Trumpets) New Moon: 12:12:23 AM(JD 1731180.42526) Phase: 0.1%, Phase angle: 176.18ø Rising: Sep 19, 27 AD; 5:32:29 AM Transit: Sep 19, 27 AD; 11:58:55 AM Setting: Sep 19, 27 AD; 6:18:05 PM Az: 14:40:42; Alt: -51:00:41 RA: 11:42:07; Dec: 6:11:54 Ecliptic Lon: 173:25:04; Lat: 3:52:59 Galactic Lon: 317:44:29; Lat: 57:22:53 Notes: Daniel's 7+62 sabbatic years fulfilled[Dan 9:25]. Vernal(Spring) Equinox of 31 AD: Julian day: 1732454 Day and Date: Monday, March 19, 31 AD Jewish calendar: 5 Nisan 3791(lunisolar) Sun Rising: Mar 19, 31 AD; 5:43:10 AM Transit: Mar 19, 31 AD; 11:42:36 AM Setting: Mar 19, 31 AD; 5:42:30 PM Notes: Jewish lunisolar calendar rules stipulate Passover(14 Nisan) must occur no earlier than two days before the spring equinox. Josephus said Passover fell "in Aries" [ref. Antiquities of the Jews IIIx5], placing Nisan 14 after March 21 every year from Moses to Christ. Also, Pentecost must occur before summer, and always on a Monday, on the 7th/9th/11th or 13th of 3rd month(Sivan), proving 14 Nisan 3791 fell on March 28, 31 AD. Palm "Sunday"(1283 days after His baptism, the LORD of the Sabbath rides humbly into Jerusalem in "the midst" of the prophet Daniel's seventieth sabbatic year): Julian day: 1732463 Day and Date: Saturday, March 24, 31 AD Jewish calendar: 10 Nisan 3791(lunisolar) New Moon: 2:37:22 AM(JD 1732450.52594) Phase: 0.2%, Phase angle: 175.34ø Az: 67:41:09; Alt: -45:35:21 RA: 23:27:51; Dec: -8:38:58 Ecliptic Lon: 349:11:07; Lat: -4:42:49 Galactic Lon: 131:38:56; Lat: -60:23:10 Rising: Mar 12, 31 AD; 6:17:11 AM Transit: Mar 12, 31 AD; 12:08:49 PM Setting: Mar 12, 31 AD; 6:07:58 PM Notes: paschal lamb selected[Exo 12:3] Date Jesus was crucified(Passover, Messiah the Prince "cut off"): Julian day: 1732467 Day and Date: Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD Jewish calendar: 14 Nisan 3791(lunisolar) Full Moon: 3:14:08 PM(JD 1732466.05148) Phase: 100.0%, Phase angle: 0.00ø Rising: Mar 27, 31 AD; 5:32:32 AM Transit: Mar 27, 31 AD; 11:39:39 AM Setting: Mar 27, 31 AD; 5:47:14 PM Az: 250:10:44; Alt: 31:09:39 RA: 0:14:55; Dec: 1:29:02 Ecliptic Lon: 4:00:37; Lat: -0:08:17 Galactic Lon: 147:25:18; Lat: -47:50:31 Notes: orthodox theologians reject Wednesday crucifixion, even though the Scriptures entirely support this. Date Jesus resurrected(scientifically-inexplicable image produced on fine linen shroud and swath cloth by process unknown and unidentified): Julian day: 1732470 Day and Date: Saturday, March 31, 31 AD Jewish calendar: 17 Nisan 3791(lunisolar) Notes: Turin shroud proven from in 1st-century Jerusalem Date Jesus' resurrection discovered("first day", early morning hours. Interesting that "April Fools/All Fools Day" traditions are of Roman Catholic/Nicaean origin): Julian day: 1732471 Day and Date: Sunday, April 1, 31 AD Jewish calendar: 18 Nisan 3791(lunisolar) Notes: orthodox theologians reject Saturday resurrection, even though the Scriptures entirely support this. Date daily sacrifice[Gk. endelecismds] ceased, temple soon destroyed: Julian day: 1746832 Day and Date: Tuesday, July 17, 70 AD Jewish calendar: 20 Tammuz 3830(lunisolar) New Moon: 9:04:23 PM(JD 1746802.29471) Phase: 0.2%, Phase angle: 175.53ø Az: 325:58:46; Alt: -21:06:02 RA: 6:06:19; Dec: 27:53:04 Ecliptic Lon: 91:23:53; Lat: 4:12:16 Galactic Lon: 197:25:33; Lat: 26:32:01 Rising: Jun 26, 70 AD; 3:28:11 AM Transit: Jun 26, 70 AD; 11:05:03 AM Setting: Jun 26, 70 AD; 6:43:34 PM *Full Moon: 5:09:41 AM(JD 1746817.63172) Phase: 99.8%, Phase angle: 5.48ø Az: 243:02:19; Alt: -9:43:09 RA: 19:11:10; Dec: -27:57:21 Ecliptic Lon: 285:43:33; Lat: -5:14:38 Galactic Lon: 25:38:09; Lat: -39:05:42 Rising: Jul 11, 70 AD; 6:32:06 PM Transit: Jul 11, 70 AD; 11:24:36 PM Setting: Jul 12, 70 AD; 4:19:14 AM Notes: "sacrifice...to cease"[Dan 9:27] fulfilled Date Jerusalem destroyed(observed, the city was "razed flat") Julian day: 1746876 Day and Date: Saturday, September 8, 70 AD Jewish calendar: 14 Elul 3830 Full Moon: 5:33:27 AM(JD 1746876.64823) Phase: 100.0%, Phase angle: 1.83ø Az: 263:29:00; Alt: -5:08:23 RA: 22:59:53; Dec: -8:14:14 Ecliptic Lon: 342:58:54; Lat: -1:36:37 Galactic Lon: 116:37:17; Lat: -60:16:30 Rising: Sep 8, 70 AD; 5:38:11 PM Transit: Sep 8, 70 AD; 11:21:03 PM Setting: Sep 9, 70 AD; 5:12:02 AM Notes: "desolate...consummation"[Dan 9:27] fulfilled
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:21:42 GMT Organization: MSI Networks, Inc. (using Airnews.net!) Message-ID: <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Abuse-Reports-To: Report improper postings to abuse at msinets dot com NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3 NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Jan 17 23:08:06 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 16 Jan 1999 02:55:36 GMT, Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: >I've been thinking... If a clever but reluctant CEO (who shall remain >nameless) wanted to find a buyer for his old ailing technology company, >wouldn't it be a good idea to follow a two-stage plan: > >Stage One: rekindle the old innovative spirit and strut the company's >stuff, so to speak, to boost the inherent value. > >Stage Two: make a series to dumb-ass marketing decisions to depress the >stock price and make it more tempting bait. > >If said CEO is still an iCEO after the shareholder's meeting, this is >how the puzzle starts coming together, I think. The question is, who? I see two prime suspects: 3Com and Sun An Apple/3Com company would make itself THE Home Area Network company. -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,pnw.forsale,soc.couples.wedding,rec.music.beatles,rec.crafts.beads Subject: cmsg cancel <19990118045558.22893.qmail@hades.rpini.com> Control: cancel <19990118045558.22893.qmail@hades.rpini.com> Date: 18 Jan 1999 05:09:56 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.19990118045558.22893.qmail@hades.rpini.com> Sender: Anonymous <nobody@remailer.ch> Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:30:39 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> In article <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net>, 1050pi@netscape.net wrote: > On 16 Jan 1999 02:55:36 GMT, Hugh Johnson > <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: > > >I've been thinking... If a clever but reluctant CEO (who shall remain > >nameless) wanted to find a buyer for his old ailing technology company, > >wouldn't it be a good idea to follow a two-stage plan: > > > >Stage One: rekindle the old innovative spirit and strut the company's > >stuff, so to speak, to boost the inherent value. > > > >Stage Two: make a series to dumb-ass marketing decisions to depress the > >stock price and make it more tempting bait. > > > >If said CEO is still an iCEO after the shareholder's meeting, this is > >how the puzzle starts coming together, I think. > > The question is, who? > > I see two prime suspects: > > 3Com and Sun > > An Apple/3Com company would make itself THE Home Area Network company. Apple already tried to buy PlamComputing from 3com... And now that have that allience... Hmm... the plot thickens. No, but really, I don't think SJ wants to sell Apple to anyone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:42:56 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77uhkv$t99$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > In <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:- > > AIX ships with X11, like any common vendor UNIX. Most installations I've > seen > > have Motif installed, and use mwm as the windowing system.- > > Oh really? How are Solaris and Digital Unix not "common vendor" unices? > They both use DPS. If I'm not mistaken, Irix either does or has as well, > although I'm not positive about that. I'm not an old hand, so my familiarity with the earlier evolution of SunOS and Solaris is not solid. In any case, my understanding is that past versions of Sun's operating environments used NeWS, which was DPS-based, indeed. Solaris 2, however, makes use of OpenWindows, which is based on the X Windows System. Solaris *does* use AnswerBook, which contains or spawns an XDPS backend (I'm not familiar with the precise workings of that product). However, Sun's product line is solidly based on X11, from XView to the current CDE product shipping on Sun's workstations and servers. > Hmmm, the unix with more seats in education and scientific institutions than > any other unix (Solaris) isn't a "common vendor UNIX" by your definition. > I don't think this guy knows wtf he's talking about. I'm sorry if something I said led you to this conclusion. I work on Solaris 2.6 every day developing X11 software. I have more than a passing familiarity with the product. > Does anyone know if AIX > uses DPS or X11? I leave you with the answer I gave before, which is the correct one. I have more than a passing familiarity with AIX, as well. Do you know what XDMCP is? Does the fact that I have setup and administered clients making XDMCP requests to RS/6000 boxes mean anything? It should. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:52:48 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77ui7d$tng$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> In article <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > Oh really? How are Solaris and Digital Unix not "common vendor" unices? > They both use DPS. Ah, more precisely, the OpenWindows server on Solaris 2 (as opposed to that on Solaris 1) is X11-based but also includes a DPS backend (built into the server). I'm not aware of what level of support Sun currently provides for libdps on Solaris 2. As I mentioned before, the AnswerBook application uses it, but the last I saw of it was on Solaris 2.3, before the transition to CDE (and CDE's help system). (Thanks to the Solaris 2 FAQ for this clarification) MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 18 Jan 1999 05:03:09 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77ufad$n62$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nn <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> <77s4vm$fg4$1@remarQ.com> In-Reply-To: <77s4vm$fg4$1@remarQ.com> On 01/16/99, Donald R. McGregor wrote: >In article <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com>, >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >>>Anyone should be welcome at $500 a head. Anyone who joins the >>developer >>>ranks becomes part of the story. "Five thousand new developers ... >>MacOS >>>X a raging success..." >>> >> >> So Apple has 5000 new developers and no sales of Mac OS X >>Server as a product. > >Since they're doing a PPC only product, and that with a limited >range of G3 systems, they'll have offsetting sales on hardware. Only if these users all buy new G3s. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 18 Jan 1999 05:07:57 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <77ufjd$n63$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9000602@slave.doubleu.com> <779emn$3qe@shelob.afs.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> <77sp8t$56b$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <77sp8t$56b$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> On 01/17/99, John Jensen wrote: >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >: On 01/16/99, John Jensen wrote: >: >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >: > >: >: Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free. Plus >: >: all the stuff that Apple ships as part of that. >: > >: >Anyone should be welcome at $500 a head. Anyone who joins the >: developer >: >ranks becomes part of the story. "Five thousand new developers ... >: MacOS >: >X a raging success..." >: > >: >: So Apple has 5000 new developers and no sales of Mac OS X >: Server as a product. > >5000 x 500 = 2,500,00. > $2,500,000 However, you forget the fact that there is substantially more provided by Apple than just Mac OS X Server for this number. That $500 currently funds WWDR, as well as the mailings, and would also need to pay Adobe and other license fees for Mac OS X Server. And they'd also expect Mac OS X included if that came out within their subscription period. At no additional cost. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Message-ID: <36A2D1D2.D93E7153@nstar.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:16:50 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit znu wrote: > > The question is, who? > > > > I see two prime suspects: > > > > 3Com and Sun > > > > An Apple/3Com company would make itself THE Home Area Network company. I think that there are plenty more. Compaq would make a suitable buyer, given its current experience in nearly all echelons of the computing industry, and its pointed ability to compete with 800-pound gorillas in most of them. It has its own CPU, a brisk trade in consumer- and enterprise-level PCs, and a tremendous number of assets in the server market. Compaq is a large solution provider, and if it sees a use for Apple-owned technology and customers, it's fully capable of executing on any strategy involving, for instance, the creation of strong alternative PC brands, or even an OPENSTEP-derivative software business. Compaq is more than able to do what Apple could/should have been doing with its assets all along. The iMac may well have been a successful ploy to market Apple for the alternative-PC scenario. It could even mean something comparable to the Netscape splitup, wherein the iMac/G3 business is sold to one buyer and the OPENSTEP-derivative technology is sold elsewhere (such as IBM, CA, or even Microsoft, for that matter). That seems to be the sensible scenario, given the increasing logical disparity between Apple's currently-stated strategy and its 2-years-past acquisition of NeXT, Inc. MJP
From: Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: I lost track Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:26:46 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F5q3KM.Dvs@RnA.nl> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 06:34:00 GMT I lost track of the happenings. Apple will ship OSX, it will have BSD44 and YB. It will not be released on Intel. So, how do we cater the intel world? Will there still be YB for Windows NT? -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:44:05 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> CC: leadership@apple.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <36A2D830.6DAC@earthlink.net> Yes, yes!! Mac OS X Workstation!!! The OS minus the server specific aspects, web objects, and developer kit. Release it for $299. and I'd buy it tomorrow! Are you listening Apple? Steve ive the Mac this way. I've been using NT at work now for about a month. Chunky, clunky, and very funky! I have never used a more UNPRODUCTIVE environment! Talk about a "toy" OS...ha! I'm still hoping Mac OS X Workstation will be created (for $299.) for those of us who appreciated and used NeXT/Openstep even if we didn't write apps for it. Steve
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 18 Jan 1999 06:39:38 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago Message-ID: <77ukva$10io$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <36A2D1D2.D93E7153@nstar.net> Michael J. Peck (mjpeck@nstar.net) wrote: : Compaq is more than able to do what Apple could/should have been doing : with its assets all along. The iMac may well have been a successful ploy : to market Apple for the alternative-PC scenario. It could even mean : something comparable to the Netscape splitup, wherein the iMac/G3 : business is sold to one buyer and the OPENSTEP-derivative technology is : sold elsewhere (such as IBM, CA, or even Microsoft, for that matter). : That seems to be the sensible scenario, given the increasing logical : disparity between Apple's currently-stated strategy and its 2-years-past : acquisition of NeXT, Inc. : MJP Compaq can't do squat. Not without Microsoft at least. More likely, than not Compaq's recent acquisitions will turn to dust, or at least the hardware and software portions. Anil
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77un0c$5if$2@news.panix.com> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:39:51 GMT, Maury Markowitz <maury_remove_this@istar.ca> wrote: > Interesting question. Well here's some partions of the market: >a) new MacOS users looking for servers > > Probably a larger market than the current 10 to 50k or so OpenStep users. I >think it's reasonable to expect 50 to 100k servers I'd guess. However few of >these will be used for serious application boxes. That's the thing that puzzles me the most about Apple killing off OSXS on x86. Most of those folks are running NT on x86 to serve Mac clients. OSXS/Intel sales would replace more NT servers in that market than steal seats from Macs running MacOS.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:52:39 -0500, Tim Scoff <casper@nb.net> wrote: >>Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many >>MIS types haven't figured that out. > > You're wrong. TCO isn't important. Return on Investment is. Don't you think that TCO is a factor in calculating overall ROI? Heck, I'll go out on a limb and say that it is often a major factor in overall ROI.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:19 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77un0b$5if$1@news.panix.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:19 GMT On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:22:39 GMT, malcolm@plsys.co.uk <malcolm@plsys.co.uk> wrote: >In article <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com>, >> Apple has stated that OSX would have a POSIX layer. >Note, however, that according to one of the engineers they're not going to >bother to go through all the hassles of getting official POSIX certification. > It should be properly compliant, but for some contracts I presume this would >be insufficient? In some cases, yes. I'm pretty sure the .gov and .mil markets demand POSIX certification. Some folks in the .com market demand it as well. For most folks the fact that BSD4.4 has POSIX certification, and OSX is built from BSD4.4 should be enough. I did some work for an investment banking firm that had rather odd IS requirements. They wouldn't install a server unless it had "full POSIX", X11, telnet and FTP daemons. The odd things was that the IS "security team" required that X11, telnet and FTP be disabled from all servers that did not need these features enabled and none of the file or database servers would ever need them to be enabled. In order to comply with the both IS requirements, all the NT servers (over 50) had a copy of a $500 X11 server and a $200 telnet daemon installed but inactive. In order for Apple to sell to this client (and they do run WO on Solaris now) they would have to make some POSIX compliance white paper available (that the IS folks would use as a mouse pad for about a week, then discard without ever reading.) and work out an agreement for a 3rd party X11 product (for the IS "security team" to disable) Sigh. Scott Adams has the easiest job on earth.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <77un0c$5if$4@news.panix.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> <36a0b7c3.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT On 16 Jan 99 16:01:07 GMT, eric@EMIEng.com <eric@EMIEng.com> wrote: > Ooh, bad example! The String class *can't* be subclassed, it's a final class. >Just another reason why Java is so lackluster. That was decided for security reasons. There are workarounds, IIRC you can subclass stringbuffer if you needed to.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:13:00 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77umtn$1d7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <77tvin$jah$2@208.236.239.25> In article <77tvin$jah$2@208.236.239.25>, nospam@devnull.com (Hath) wrote: > The whole operating system is based around graphics output and a GUI from > the hardware level (having stuff in the hardware to support it) up. always > has been. What hardware are you talking about? Are you talking about the ability to accelerate graphics in hardware or color calibration or something else? PCs are usually ahead in terms of 2D/3D graphics acceleration. When Apple releases a new Mac, it often outperforms the fastest consumer PC system by a small margin. A year or so later, Apple will be using the same graphics hardware and PC hardware will be almost twice as fast. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36A2E39E.43F704B6@nstar.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:32:46 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77un0b$5if$1@news.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sal Denaro wrote: [cut] > In order for Apple to sell to this client (and they do run WO on Solaris now) > they would have to make some POSIX compliance white paper available (that the > IS folks would use as a mouse pad for about a week, then discard without ever > reading.) and work out an agreement for a 3rd party X11 product (for the IS > "security team" to disable) > > Sigh. > > Scott Adams has the easiest job on earth. [laugh] You're not kidding. MJP
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: NY Times Article [Apple Faithful See a Future With Java] Excerpts Date: 18 Jan 1999 09:38:58 GMT Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc. Message-ID: <77uvfi$2ms@ns2.alink.net> This was very interesting. I won't guess if this means anything for us Objective-C developers, or if it was just a comment meant to be ingested by the Carbon crowd. Mike Barthelemy Excerpted from: http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/01/cyber/articles/16java.html Peter Lowe, the director of worldwide product marketing for the Mac operating system, said: "To be perfectly honest, Java support on the Macintosh was not where it was meant to be." [deleted] One of the more interesting rumors at MacWorld came from Apple employees who suggested that Apple might make Java the preferred development language for the forthcoming Mac OS X. This new version of the MacOS will probably include features Apple acquired from NeXT Software. Lowe dismissed the rumor and suggested it was a mixture of hyperbole and wishful thinking. He said only that Apple wanted to make it as easy as possible for every developer to write software for the Macintosh and they would continue to try to support whatever language people desired.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan16164217@slave.doubleu.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net> In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:55:31 GMT Date: 16 Jan 99 16:42:17 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:00:02 PDT In article <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes: In <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > One of the things I've come to realize over the past week is that > the milestone I passed on Wed the 6th was more subtle than I > realized. The risks from staying with YellowBox began to > overwhelm the development advantages YellowBox gives me. True as this may be in your case, I jump out of airplanes for fun and clearly have a different risk analysis criterion. Thus if this is what the thread comes down to (as it appears to do) then it's not at all clear why anyone should be _upset_ about it. IMHO the risks in this case are entirely due to having Apple in the loop. Let's say that you were jumping out of airplanes for fun, using the highest quality fabrics in your parachute, and using a design which gave you the best directional control possible, and knew that in 25% of your leaps your primary parachute wasn't going to open due to being badly packed? And you weren't allow to pack your own parachute? Besides, your (and Mmalcolm's) risks differ from ours, and we have every right to be upset. Our largest partner is a $250M/year financial printer, and they have effectively _zero_ interest in the MacOS market, now or in the future. Is this short-sighted on their part? In the very long term, possibly, but as of this moment, their type of market is nowhere on Apple's radar. Up until MacWorld, we honestly thought it wouldn't make a difference one way or the other, we'd be able to take advantage of OpenStep while still operating in our customer's markets. As of MacWorld it seems like Apple is not only not interested in non-consumer non-"pro" markets, they are somewhat _anti_-interested in them. > For me, the main difference between now and before Apple bought > NeXT is that if NeXT went out of business pushing a solution that > I found so obviously workable, that was a condemnation of the > state of the market. Apple apparently de-prioritizing a solution > I find so obviously workable is a condemndation of the state of > Apple. I _expect_ the market to be fairly capricious, I had > _hoped_ Apple would not be so. Well as far as I'm concerned the only reality is the product. If NeXT died and killed the product I see no non-emotional difference than if Apple doesn't die but kills the product. You're trying to tell me above that there is a logical reason for your decision, I was? Hmm, interesting, I didn't think I was telling anyone that there was a logical reason for my decision. Well, I mean, learning from my mistaken reads on where Apple's going is entirely logical, but the ways that Apple changes directions is not logical. I'd say that the hallmark of an OpenStep developer is that they will claim that they have made their choices based on clear technical reasons. Here you lay waste to that claim. I'm not pointing the finger here, I never believed it in the first place. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this stuff from. I chose to develop under OpenStep for purely technical reasons. I'm pissed off because I'm very probably going to have to stop developing under OpenStep for entirely non-technical reasons that are outside of my or my employer's control. I've never claimed that I'm going away because of technical stortfalls in YellowBox. The main point of contension is that Apple states "we are continuing development but don't know how to sell it", and you have read as "we are killing the product" and your comments to date have never included an "in my opinion". I'm sorry to be blunt Scott, but right or wrong this is all JUST YOUR OPINION. Uh, yeah? What's your point? Why not be blunt, state the obvious? BECAUSE IT IS JUST MY OPINION! Have I stated differently at any point? And what you're posting is just _YOUR_ opinion. As should be thepresumption on _anything_ you read, here. (In fact, I'm somewhat confused as to what else one could construe _my_ postings as being? Especially in light of the lack of any actual evidence from Apple on either side of the issue.) When someone else looks at the same statements and suggests they mean something else, you've blasted them as being naive, which is terribly unfair even if you're right. One year from now one of us gets to say "I told you so", but in the meantime it's only name calling. So please stop telling people like myself and mmalc that we're stupid for looking at the same evidence and coming to a different conclusion. I've not tossed names at people. If you honestly think I have, please go back and reread my postings without pulling in text from adjacent posts. So far as I can tell, I've no more called you stupid for taking the positive spin on Apple's moves than I think anyone has called me stupid for taking the negative spin. I've tried hard to keep things on an even keel - if someone says that their interpretation of various statements is different from mine in such and such fashion, I've tried to point out why it is that I think my interpretation is still valid. Besides, what would be the point of calling Mmalcolm or yourself or anyone else names? As far as I'm concerned, there are only a spare handful of people on Earth who have any influence on these matters, and none of them post or read these newsgroups. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:40:59 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1801990140590001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> In article <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > The only pathological lair around is you > Steve, or whatever name you want ot use today. You have been exposed before, And where was this? You do know how to use dejanews, I assume? > only to climb from under the desk when Apple bashing (Not always > unjustified) is the soup of the day. In other words GET LOST!! If you want to call it apple bashing fine. I call it describing the current good and bad factors to both apple and microsoft. I am sorry you have such a hard time handling this...
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:57:44 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> <B2C0367C9668BE162@eris.dw.net> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1801990157440001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> In article <B2C0367C9668BE162@eris.dw.net>, jfc536@dwave.net (jfc536) wrote: > > >>Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the > >>only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) What does this above sentance mean?
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:44:53 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <see-below-1101991645390001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1801990144530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> In article <see-below-1101991645390001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com>, see-below@not-my-address.invalid (Dohnut) wrote: > > > John Carmack is not god, and he is a known PC snob. > > Er, no. He actually prefers Unix and particularly Nextstep (ahem, MacOS X > Server...) over Wintel in many ways, but for various resons NT has become > his preferred development platform in the last few years (probably better > availability of tools more than anything). In the early years of course he > was primarily an Apple II programmer. No fair Matthew!!! He says bad things about our oh so sensitive macos, thus regardless of whether or not its true we must tar and feather him and call him a wintroll!!!
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:57:10 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1801990157110001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> In article <369a439e.0@news.cadvision.com>, "Jason Sims" <SPAMjason@SUCKSmacvertigo.com> wrote: > hurdles to jump over and are really not doing that badly overall, > considering the difficulties they've faced BESIDES figuring out a way to > replace an aging OS without alienating what's left of their userbase. > > >Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the > >only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this) > > > Although the P2 450 would be a lot less expensive. It's a give & take > situation - you get a cheaper computer, you get an unintuitive operating > system with a cruddy interface, yet a more powerful (if unreliable and an > overly complicated mess of hacks) kernel. You buy a Mac, everything is > easier to set up and customize, you're saving time right from the start - > until you have to deal with programs crashing or being unresponsive because > the system's memory management stinks and the machine cannot properly deal > with multiple simultaneous tasks. Mac OS X should be the end of this > argument. Apple can add the powerful features under the hood of their > otherwise-superior operating system, but we all know Microsoft can never > make their OS easy to use because it is a bunch of hacks designed to hold > together all kinds of different computers that were stupidly designed with > no standards to begin with. Just curious, what does the following sentance mean: Speed wise, their is no reason to buy a p2 450 instead of a g3 400 (the only reason would be game availability, and Apple is changing this
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:54:45 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> In article <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > I admit that I did over react to Steve's Sullivan's post. This is because he > only posts when there is a chance to bash Apple . That is totally false. your problem with me is while I feel free to praise APple (and I do) and bash intel and wintel) my feeling free to bash apple gets your panties in a bunch. And it is totally false I have been posting under different names. The whole time I have been posting under one name, macghod@concnetric.net >Also he has been exposed > as posting under different names. Thus my harsh reaction. Also being "one > most talented coders on the planet" does not limit you from being baised to > a particular platform. I could crash my wintel computer 10 times a day after > years of programming for the Mac if the I didn't know the road very well.
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:52:15 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <flat-1101991902370001@pm6-89.orf.infi.net> Organization: concentric Message-ID: <macghod-1801990152150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> In article <flat-1101991902370001@pm6-89.orf.infi.net>, flat@flat.net (fLAt anTAgonISt) wrote: > >Why is the worst? Justify that statement. I've used Windows and MacOS, I > >would really like to hear your take on it. It's really easy to just say > >something sucks. Prove it or get lost. > > I think the problem may be this (and I am not a expert on this). Mac people love the mac due to its ui. But to people like Carmack (correct me if I am wrong) the ui isnt even part of the os. So the macos, compared as a os, is looked upon by its bad features, can run unreal and burn a cd at the same time, etc. Furthermore, windows worse feature is it ui, and this is totally overlooked, and is core is a bit better than macos, its a bit more stable, a bit faster, does multitasking a bit better. Anyone knowledgable about this want to comment?
From: richk@nexus.carleton.ca (Richard Kulisz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 18 Jan 1999 11:30:48 GMT Organization: Nexus Project Message-ID: <77v618$sr$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <76udhh$9sd$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77pprh$1jm$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <77u4lf$s02$1@hecate.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-User: richk In article <77u4lf$s02$1@hecate.umd.edu>, David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: >: If you actually care about efficiency then Japanese farming is very >: efficient. Small farms are the best way to achieve the maximum possible The definition of "efficiency" obviously depends on the resource you >are trying to conserve. In US, the use of machinery conserves the labor >resources, and much more food per worker-hour is produced than in Japan. >Even if we change the criteria to the food production per unit land area, >the use of heavy machinery does not necessarily sacrifice the "efficiency >per unit land" ratio. The labor thus saved could be redirected to other >tasks. Of course, all of this is a lie. If the US economy is "efficient" then how come it has a large chunk of its population unemployed? That's because the definition of efficiency most people care to use does not coincide with the one /you/ use and it becomes obvious when they diverge. US robotization is not targeted at producing more but at cutting workers out of the loop so that you can fire all their asses and cut the wages of anyone that's left (using the threat of unemployment to shut them up). This becomes obvious when you see that US companies robotize even when it isn't, strictly speaking, cost-effective to do so; it only becomes cost-effective because you can cut the wages of the remaining workers. Cruelty is one of the inputs of the US economic model. The US is not concerned with producing the most products it can, just with producing the most *profits* it can. You might say that this is natural but it isn't; Japan is concerned with producing the most products. And of course, "efficient" is defined relative to what you're trying to accomplish; so from the Japanese perspective, the US economy is remarkably inefficient (and by all measures, it is cruel and inhuman). >With regards to the unemployment, perhaps you just missed the news, >Unemployment rate in Japan has just exceeded those in the US. I'd like to know what measures were used. US newspapers are notorious for fucking with statistics. Might as well be reading Pravda. In the remote case that what you say is correct, one has to consider that the USA's present situation is a historical aberration, and so is Japan's. So my response is "shit happens". >Fortunately, I've had such a first year economics course to understand >that such trades you speak of work if the value of products are roughly >the same. The formula does not work if group A wants to trade junk And yet, such trades happen *all the times*! That's one of the things they don't teach you in economics. They would teach you that in sociology or philosophy. Why do they occur? Advertising that causes impulse buying, misjudgements of consumers, poverty being leveraged as an economic weapon. The causes are many and varied. >for group B's family heirloom. The question is then, are Thai, Taiwanese, >and/or American rice filled with rat droppings, and Japanese rice, the >paragon of quality? Is this quality worth 10% extra? 100% extra? or >1000% extra? Of course, I wasn't making a specific accusation, just a general accusation against the whole of capitalism. If you wanted to instantiate it then I might say that Japanese rice contains a quality that American rice does not have; its production required Japanese jobs. >Unfortunately, Capitalism is nearest to a working system that human beings Capitalism only works for billionaires, and of course since the billionaires hold all the power in the USA then it's predictable that's the system that's used. Socialism, as endless implementations show, is superior to capitalism in ALL measures (unless you invert things and start saying that brutality is a good thing). The USA is the worst of the industrialized countries in all social measures; death rates, crime rates, child-poverty rates, et cetera. >have come up with that is deemed acceptable by most of the people in the According to the Harris polling organization 83% of the US population does not consider capitalism acceptable. I don't see how a 17% acceptance rate translates to "most of the people". >world. The "Chinese Socialism" system looks suspeciously like Capitalism. The Chinese economy has nothing to do with socialism of course. Or communism for that matter. >And within China, the areas engaged in the "new Socialism" are propering, >and the areas which are not, are not. We can modify the systems so that >"naked Capitalism", as practiced in late 19th and early 20th century and late 20th. >in the US, does not happen, however, any system setup designed for >"fairness" (such as communism) inevitably enforces the "fairness" by >defining a system of operations, then maintains the "fairness" by >rigorous enforcement of that status quo. And how do you know this oh, oracle? I would *really* like to know this since communism has never been implemented on even a regional scale. >The best compromise the human beings have come up with appears to be >a combination of Capitalism and Socialism, where we take advantage of >the "good" parts of Capitalism in creating dynamicism in society, then I'd also like to know what "dynamicism" means. Or "dynamism" for that matter. I'll give 1000:1 odds that it's another of those meaningless vacuous terms used solely for propaganda purposes. There are no good parts to capitalism (or the state-capitalism practiced by every country -- capitalism never having been implemented in history). Every step of the way, humans must struggle against capitalism to achieve anything worthwhile. >enforcing a minimal "social justice" standard. Perhaps you can come That's right; MINIMAL. Because maximal social justice is bad, right? >up with a new system which would preserve the dynamicism and evolutionary >forces provided by Capitalism, and yet maintain the social justices you >seek. If you're looking for solid constant technological progress then capitalism *isn't* going to give it to you. The best possible way is the Japanese; a technocracy implementing communist principles. All scientists understand that scientific progress is based on insulating themselves from the brutal realities of "capitalism". >Definitely untrue. I am not a billionaire, my networth at this moment >is definitely under 1 million. say, way under. Yet, I am concerned about >the high price of rice in Japan. Why? Because I go to the grocery store, >and I look at the price of rice, and I get sticker shock. And believe me, >I've been eating rice all of my life, and the stuff being sold isn't the >gourmet stuff. Those very same unemployed people, who are supposed to be >protected in this protected system, now cannot afford to purchase enough >rice to survive. Hey, I'd love to have to do nothing and still get a 100,000$ a year income from an inherited family fortune like the super-rich elite in the USA, but the reality is that this kind of thing is only possible if you rip-off the whole of society. I'm sure you'd like to rip off Japanese society by making it dangerously dependent on imports but others won't let you. >In this case, I am arguing for "fairness" from another prespective. Was >it fair for Japan to be able to export cars to the US, then turn around >and tack a 1000% tariff on rice from US? The USA as a victim ... Oh, how drole, how imaginative! You're treating the only country ever to be condemned by the World Trade Organization for illegal economic warfare as a victim of economic aggression?! Give me a break! If Japan burns the US economy to a crisp, and finally gives US citizens a taste of what their nation has been perpetrating on the Third World for more than a century, I'll be laughing all the way. >Some have pointed to the cultural significance of rice to the Japanese, >those are the same who have forgotten the cultural significance of cars >to Americans. (no, I'm not joking. There was a recent PBS series on Now you're posing the USA as a victim of cultural imperialism. That takes some doing!! Do Disney and Coca-Cola not ring a bell to you? -- "They decided to scrap western economics totally, throw it out the window, and follow a totally different model, one rooted in their own history, and in fact the one that was used by every developed country. They threw out all the textbooks, everything the occupation authorities and scholars and so on had told them, and they went ahead and modeled themselves, as they put it, on the Soviet Union. They said they were going to create a society on the model of the Soviet Union, but it was going to work, because they were going to be efficient, not crooks, gangsters." -- Noam Chomsky on Japan's economy
From: richk@nexus.carleton.ca (Richard Kulisz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 18 Jan 1999 11:47:32 GMT Organization: Nexus Project Message-ID: <77v70k$1ju$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-User: richk In article <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu>, David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: >: Well excuse me, I wish to remind you that there is more to the world >: then just the good old USA. I am not from the land of the couch >: potato. > >What industrious nation would you hail from then? I would like to >begin to collect gross generalizations immediately. US citizens watch an average of more than 6 hours of television a day which is almost twice more the next highest national average (Canada) but 1/3 less than Japan with an average of 9 hours and 20 minutes a day. Incidentally, the only countries with capital punishment are either third world (I am tempted to include the US in that category) or brainwashed by non-stop television. That's right; Japanese are so scared of violence (on what rational basis one wonders?) that they feel murder is justified. And it is NOT a gross generalization to say that US citizens are fat lazy pigs. The American Dream is to sit on your ass and win (or "find") a lot of money, after all. : It would help if your country didn't dump wheat and other farm >: products in our markets as well. > >Perhaps you should read up on the changes in the US farming industry, >over the course of the last few years, before you spout off more of >your well formed opinions. US farming subsidies have been drastically >reduced, to induce more of a demand-driven farming. I never liked >the agricultural socialism inherant in the US farming system, and so >I do applaud the changes there. What specific product(s) are you >arguing that Americans dump in "your market"? Canada has also switched to a more "demand-driven" farming. It comes as absolutely no surprise to anyone that the entire Saskatchewan economy has collapsed as a result. One wonders if the switch in policies by the Liberal Party (right-wing) had anything to do with the fact that Saskatchewan has always been the stronghold of the Neo-Democratic Party (center-left). I personally have no doubts on the matter. I'd like to note that these Liberal Party policies were implemented under the guise of "free trade" with the USA, exactly what you're advocating for Japan.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:27 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77v8oi$gfg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77tv2j$kt6@shelob.afs.com> <77u88m$lkg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36a2b559.0@news.depaul.edu> In article <36a2b559.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote: > Will there be any scripting support on Windows? > From the Release Notes: "In the _rst Customer Release you are not able to compose AppleScript scripts in the Yellow Box or send AppleScript commands from the Yellow Box to the Blue Box. These features will be added in future releases." My interpretation (which is also consistent with the class documentation): there *will* be complete support for scripting within the YellowBox environment, and thus on Windows as well, however clearly it's not there yet. Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Scott Tirrell" <stirrell@portland.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.advocacy,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.net-computer.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,de.comp.advocacy,de.comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: Wanted: A Stable O/S References: <77g39n$otf$1@camel0.mindspring.com> <77g81h$lgf$1@plo.sierra.com> <369CBEC8.C0C811@cfc.dnd.ca> <77o7ji$i3e$3@goof.de.uu.net> Organization: New Media Development Group Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <uRFo2.4775$Zq1.44058@newsfeed.slurp.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:33:18 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:32:26 CDT In article <77o7ji$i3e$3@goof.de.uu.net> , "Matthias Werner" <MWerner@bigfoot.de> wrote: > Is this a real, running OS, or just a insane desire? Both :-). >>(add LiNUX and TOS, heat and serve -> MiNT) > Where can I get it or at least screenshots? There is a mailing list for MiNT as well as many MiNT sites out there.... do a search on the many search engines for something like Mint and Atari. -- Scott Tirrell | stirrell@portland.com Client Service Coordinator New Media Development Group | http://www.nmdg.com
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:27:30 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1801990627300001@elk67.dol.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> In article <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: > In article <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net>, > joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > > >In article <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" > ><liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > > > >> If Apple wants companies like Motorola to buy Macs w/Mac OS X went it > >> finally comes out, it needs: > >> > >> * LOW price > > > >Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many > >MIS types haven't figured that out. > > You're wrong. TCO isn't important. Return on Investment is. You're right. My statement was correct, but incomplete. In terms of importance, ROI > TCO > purchase price. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 06:29:10 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1801990629100001@elk67.dol.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <casper-1701992051360001@192.168.1.3> In article <casper-1701992051360001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: > Everyone is losing to Dell. HP, Compaq, & IBM are all fighting for > their survival against the direct market vendors who sell directly to the > customer instead of through the traditional retail/distribution channels. Actually, the ones who are losing are the custom PC makers and the small shops. I should have saved the article, but I read a report last week showing the percentage of PCs being sold by the garage shops. It's showing a dramatic decline. Of course, when you can buy an IBM or Compaq for not too much more than a bucket shop charges, that's probably inevitable. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta
From: John Hornkvist <sorry@no.more.spams> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:57:32 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Högskola Sender: john@haddock.cd.chalmers.se (John Hprnkvist) Message-ID: <F5rAnw.GMx@haddock.cd.chalmers.se> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: satan@hell.home.com In <Kxuo2.4577$xq4.1198@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Michael Lankton wrote: > In <77tqjg$ae2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote:- > > AIX ships with X11, like any common vendor UNIX. Most installations I've > seen > > have Motif installed, and use mwm as the windowing system.- > > Oh really? How are Solaris and Digital Unix not "common vendor" unices? > They both use DPS. Use DPS? They have support for DPS (as part of X11 R6, IIRC). That does not mean that DPS is the "window manager". > If I'm not mistaken, Irix either does or has as well, > although I'm not positive about that. > Hmmm, the unix with more seats in education and scientific institutions than > any other unix (Solaris) isn't a "common vendor UNIX" by your definition. > I don't think this guy knows wtf he's talking about. Does anyone know if AIX > uses DPS or X11? X11. As does Solaris and Digital Unix. Where did you get the idea that Solaris and DEC UNIX use DPS rather than X11? Regards, John Hornkvist Name:nhoj Address:cd.chalmers.se
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 18 Jan 1999 13:20:08 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <77vce8$fhl$1@hecate.umd.edu> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <76udhh$9sd$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77pprh$1jm$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <77u4lf$s02$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77v618$sr$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> Richard Kulisz (richk@nexus.carleton.ca) wrote: : David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: : >: If you actually care about efficiency then Japanese farming is very : >: efficient. Small farms are the best way to achieve the maximum possible : The definition of "efficiency" obviously depends on the resource you : >are trying to conserve. In US, the use of machinery conserves the labor : >resources, and much more food per worker-hour is produced than in Japan. : >Even if we change the criteria to the food production per unit land area, : >the use of heavy machinery does not necessarily sacrifice the "efficiency : >per unit land" ratio. The labor thus saved could be redirected to other : >tasks. : Of course, all of this is a lie. If the US economy is "efficient" then : how come it has a large chunk of its population unemployed? That's because : the definition of efficiency most people care to use does not coincide : with the one /you/ use and it becomes obvious when they diverge. define "large chunk". Also please point to an example of a truly "efficient" and "humane" economy. : US robotization is not targeted at producing more but at cutting workers : out of the loop so that you can fire all their asses and cut the wages : of anyone that's left (using the threat of unemployment to shut them up). : This becomes obvious when you see that US companies robotize even when : it isn't, strictly speaking, cost-effective to do so; it only becomes : cost-effective because you can cut the wages of the remaining workers. : Cruelty is one of the inputs of the US economic model. And yet the proletariet has one of the highest standards to living. How does that happen? : The US is not concerned with producing the most products it can, just : with producing the most *profits* it can. You might say that this is : natural but it isn't; Japan is concerned with producing the most : products. And of course, "efficient" is defined relative to what you're : trying to accomplish; so from the Japanese perspective, the US economy : is remarkably inefficient (and by all measures, it is cruel and inhuman). Again, please showcase you example of a "humane system". By my observation, Japanese system isn't too terribly "efficient". Unless you decide that employing a small army of people to manually sweep the grounds, and promptly bring you tea at 3:00PM as "efficient" use of labor resources. From any perspective, you'd think that such labor could be re-trained for a more productive job. Like perhaps auto mechanic, theortical physicist.... : >With regards to the unemployment, perhaps you just missed the news, : >Unemployment rate in Japan has just exceeded those in the US. : I'd like to know what measures were used. US newspapers are notorious : for fucking with statistics. Might as well be reading Pravda. This bit of statistics came from Japan, not US. It was headline news for a couple of days for obvious reasons. : In the remote case that what you say is correct, one has to consider : that the USA's present situation is a historical aberration, and so is : Japan's. So my response is "shit happens". I guess then if the system doesn't work, its because that system is flawed, not because your theory is incorrect? : >Fortunately, I've had such a first year economics course to understand : >that such trades you speak of work if the value of products are roughly : >the same. The formula does not work if group A wants to trade junk : And yet, such trades happen *all the times*! That's one of the things : they don't teach you in economics. They would teach you that in sociology : or philosophy. Why do they occur? Advertising that causes impulse buying, : misjudgements of consumers, poverty being leveraged as an economic weapon. : The causes are many and varied. So ban all advertising? : >for group B's family heirloom. The question is then, are Thai, Taiwanese, : >and/or American rice filled with rat droppings, and Japanese rice, the : >paragon of quality? Is this quality worth 10% extra? 100% extra? or : >1000% extra? : Of course, I wasn't making a specific accusation, just a general accusation : against the whole of capitalism. If you wanted to instantiate it then I : might say that Japanese rice contains a quality that American rice does : not have; its production required Japanese jobs. As such, is it worth 1000% more? As contrary to you, I WAS making a specific discussion, as evidenced by the title of this thread. You speak of theories, and I talk about a specific sample case. : >Unfortunately, Capitalism is nearest to a working system that human beings : Capitalism only works for billionaires, and of course since the billionaires : hold all the power in the USA then it's predictable that's the system that's : used. Socialism, as endless implementations show, is superior to capitalism : in ALL measures (unless you invert things and start saying that brutality : is a good thing). Soviets? What do you call the mess over there? The worst parts of socialism combined with the worst parts of Capitalism? : The USA is the worst of the industrialized countries in all social measures; : death rates, crime rates, child-poverty rates, et cetera. And yet none of the communist countries are among the industrialized countries. Why? The US has its share of problems, but that has less to be tied with Capitalism than with the culture. I look at other capitalist societies with different culture, and I don't see those problems as being statically defined. : >have come up with that is deemed acceptable by most of the people in the : According to the Harris polling organization 83% of the US population does : not consider capitalism acceptable. I don't see how a 17% acceptance rate : translates to "most of the people". That's strange. People are still trying to get into the US, instead of trying to get out. Do they go willingly to be oppressed? One would think that if people in any given country were "unhappy", they would, by osmosis effects, migrate out, instead of in. : >world. The "Chinese Socialism" system looks suspeciously like Capitalism. : The Chinese economy has nothing to do with socialism of course. Or : communism for that matter. And there is no real working communist/socialist society. : >And within China, the areas engaged in the "new Socialism" are propering, : >and the areas which are not, are not. We can modify the systems so that : >"naked Capitalism", as practiced in late 19th and early 20th century : and late 20th. : >in the US, does not happen, however, any system setup designed for : >"fairness" (such as communism) inevitably enforces the "fairness" by : >defining a system of operations, then maintains the "fairness" by : >rigorous enforcement of that status quo. : And how do you know this oh, oracle? I would *really* like to know : this since communism has never been implemented on even a regional : scale. As endless implementations show, all were such spectacular failures to the n-th degree. : >The best compromise the human beings have come up with appears to be : >a combination of Capitalism and Socialism, where we take advantage of : >the "good" parts of Capitalism in creating dynamicism in society, then : I'd also like to know what "dynamicism" means. Or "dynamism" for that : matter. I'll give 1000:1 odds that it's another of those meaningless : vacuous terms used solely for propaganda purposes. And I suppose that I'm just a covert agent implanted by the Imperialists. You don't know me, but I can assure you that my entire familie's networth is well under a million. : There are no good parts to capitalism (or the state-capitalism practiced : by every country -- capitalism never having been implemented in history). : Every step of the way, humans must struggle against capitalism to achieve : anything worthwhile. Oh yes, and the workers shall rise up, and there will be a class struggle.... Do you ever stop and take a look at what is happening around the world today? : >enforcing a minimal "social justice" standard. Perhaps you can come : That's right; MINIMAL. Because maximal social justice is bad, right? No, but the attempted enforcement IS bad. everywhere the communists went, the first thing they do is sack the "billionaires". Then they ensure that there can never be any "billionaires" (expand definition of billionaires to anyone perceived to be an oppressor of the workers) Mao triend to enforce "social justice" by killing 5% of the population in China. The communists in Cambodia killed 2 million. Is it more humane to just kill all those suspected to be oppresors of the "people"? : >up with a new system which would preserve the dynamicism and evolutionary : >forces provided by Capitalism, and yet maintain the social justices you : >seek. : If you're looking for solid constant technological progress then capitalism : *isn't* going to give it to you. The best possible way is the Japanese; a : technocracy implementing communist principles. All scientists understand : that scientific progress is based on insulating themselves from the brutal : realities of "capitalism". Perhaps the debate isn't about Capitalism/Socialsim/Communism. As the Japanese system is none of the three, rather, the "closeness" of the social system, resistant to change. The technocrats you speak of, are precisely the ones which have driven Japan and Korea as well into the current crisis. : >Definitely untrue. I am not a billionaire, my networth at this moment : >is definitely under 1 million. say, way under. Yet, I am concerned about : >the high price of rice in Japan. Why? Because I go to the grocery store, : >and I look at the price of rice, and I get sticker shock. And believe me, : >I've been eating rice all of my life, and the stuff being sold isn't the : >gourmet stuff. Those very same unemployed people, who are supposed to be : >protected in this protected system, now cannot afford to purchase enough : >rice to survive. : Hey, I'd love to have to do nothing and still get a 100,000$ a year income : from an inherited family fortune like the super-rich elite in the USA, but : the reality is that this kind of thing is only possible if you rip-off the : whole of society. I'm sure you'd like to rip off Japanese society by making : it dangerously dependent on imports but others won't let you. $100,000/yr income? Well, no one in my family makes that kind of money, or will make that kind of money even remotely in the short term. In the mean time, rice is about $40 for a 10 kg bag (subsidized) and I can't afford gourmet rice everyday. "dangerously dependant on imports"? You must be delusional to even begin to think that Japan has any choice in this matter. Even not counting rice, Japan is very much resource poor. Remember why Japan attacked Perl Harbor? The American's cut off trade, and Japan realized that it would eventually be starved of oil, rubber, and other material which it needs for its war efforts in China and other parts of southeast Asia. Guess what, nothing's changed. Japan has no more Oil than it does in 1945. Quite a bit of the food, aside from rice, is already imported into Japan. How do you propose to make Japan self sufficient by putting a 1000% tariff on rice? : >In this case, I am arguing for "fairness" from another prespective. Was : >it fair for Japan to be able to export cars to the US, then turn around : >and tack a 1000% tariff on rice from US? : The USA as a victim ... Oh, how drole, how imaginative! You're treating : the only country ever to be condemned by the World Trade Organization : for illegal economic warfare as a victim of economic aggression?! Give : me a break! : If Japan burns the US economy to a crisp, and finally gives US citizens : a taste of what their nation has been perpetrating on the Third World for : more than a century, I'll be laughing all the way. Except those technocrats which you seem to like are driving the economy into stagnation. The unemployment situation doesn't change, because instead of laying off people, the companies just aren't hiring any new ones. : >Some have pointed to the cultural significance of rice to the Japanese, : >those are the same who have forgotten the cultural significance of cars : >to Americans. (no, I'm not joking. There was a recent PBS series on : Now you're posing the USA as a victim of cultural imperialism. That : takes some doing!! Do Disney and Coca-Cola not ring a bell to you? Cultural imperialism? no. I just think that if the UAW workers were laid off because Americans were buying more Japanese imports for one reason or another, the short term enforced protection of Japanese farmers on this basis doesn't hold water. Ofcourse your solution would've probably have been to put a 1000% tariff on Japanese car imports, and protected the jobs of the UAW members, and no trade would take place. : -- : "They decided to scrap western economics totally, throw it out the window, : and follow a totally different model, one rooted in their own history, and : in fact the one that was used by every developed country. They threw out all : the textbooks, everything the occupation authorities and scholars and so on : had told them, and they went ahead and modeled themselves, as they put it, : on the Soviet Union. They said they were going to create a society on the : model of the Soviet Union, but it was going to work, because they were going : to be efficient, not crooks, gangsters." -- Noam Chomsky on Japan's economy Let me put it this way. You speak elegantly of "social justice", and some theortical system which the members of that society are both treated fairly and they are productive. On the other hand, my father's family is still in China, and while in my undergraduate studies, my circle of friends included a friend from Romania, and two from Vietnam. I also have friends from China and Cambodia. So while you wax poetic about the POTENTIALS of a TRUE socialist/communist society, I have many counter exmaples that I can provide for you of attempted implementations of those systems. In search of this elusive social justice, many people were preceived as "enemies", and promptly killed. So instead of happily being oppressed in US and other nominally capitalist systems, they were just killed. You can come back with the retort saying that "Those weren't the TRUE worker's utopia that Marx envisioned". Fine, but perhaps it should tell you something that nearly all such implementations yielded similar results. -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: matreya@ihug.com.au (Jason Haines) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:37:27 +1100 Organization: The Internet Group Ltd Message-ID: <matreya-1901990037280001@p7-max27.syd.ihug.com.au> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <see-below-1101991645390001@dynamic22.pm06.mv.best.com> <macghod-1801990144530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> In article <macghod-1801990144530001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: >No fair Matthew!!! He says bad things about our oh so sensitive macos, >thus regardless of whether or not its true we must tar and feather him and >call him a wintroll!!! Actually, judging from his appearance at the Keynote presentation at MacWorld, he seems a bit of a social retard. It remains to be seen whether QuakeArena is any less of a user interface nightmare than Quake.. -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Jason | Email: mailto:matreya@tig.com.au | "That which does Haines | Homepage : http://homepages.tig.com.au/~matreya/ | not kill you makes | IRC : matreya #macintosh/oz.org | you stronger" | Fax : +61 2 9584 2711 (W) | - Nietzsche /\ | Ph : +61 2 9584 2722 (W) | ______________________________________________________________________________
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 18 Jan 1999 14:17:14 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <77vfpa$onn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> <77sp8t$56b$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <77ufjd$n63$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : On 01/17/99, John Jensen wrote: : >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : >: So Apple has 5000 new developers and no sales of Mac OS X : >: Server as a product. : >5000 x 500 = 2,500,00. : $2,500,000 A typo, yes. I sometimes (as now) attempt these posts without my contact lenses installed. : However, you forget the fact that there is substantially more : provided by Apple than just Mac OS X Server for this number. That : $500 currently funds WWDR, as well as the mailings, and would also : need to pay Adobe and other license fees for Mac OS X Server. My original objection was to your statement: "Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free." You seem to have moved forward from that apalling sense of economics to consider finer details such as cost of production, margin, and the like. You might also consider if a $500 developer could actually develop for the platform if the OS was not included ... and perhaps work out the starting costs for a new programmer interested in MacOS X Server. Beyond that, your statement that "Anyone would" may be optimistic. There are a lot of free and interesting things out there on the internet. One example would be Apple's Carbon tools, in the form of MPW(*), which are available as a free downoad. There is a lot of competition for developer attention, and $500 is $500. John * - http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/index.html
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <casper-1801990920520001@192.168.1.3> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <casper-1701992051360001@192.168.1.3> <joe.ragosta-1801990629100001@elk67.dol.net> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:20:52 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:21:32 CDT In article <joe.ragosta-1801990629100001@elk67.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >In article <casper-1701992051360001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim >Scoff) wrote: > >> Everyone is losing to Dell. HP, Compaq, & IBM are all fighting for >> their survival against the direct market vendors who sell directly to the >> customer instead of through the traditional retail/distribution channels. > >Actually, the ones who are losing are the custom PC makers and the small >shops. I should have saved the article, but I read a report last week >showing the percentage of PCs being sold by the garage shops. It's showing >a dramatic decline. > >Of course, when you can buy an IBM or Compaq for not too much more than a >bucket shop charges, that's probably inevitable. True. I won't buy a custom built PC from one of those shops for any reason. When I buy a Wintel computer I want to have the manufacturer give me one CD ROM with the drivers for every component so when I install I only do it one time. Unfortunately the garage shops can't do that. They give you enough drivers and patches on different disks to choke a horse. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net http://www.nb.net/~casper/ I wonder if in part why so many people are angry at Microsoft is not just because their products frustrate them so much, but also because this frustration is ignored. The computer makes people feel like they are dummies, when in fact it is the computer that is stupid. ROSALIND PICARD, Assoc. Professor, MIT
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <casper-1801990922280001@192.168.1.3> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:22:25 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:23:08 CDT In article <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:52:39 -0500, Tim Scoff <casper@nb.net> wrote: >>>Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many >>>MIS types haven't figured that out. >> >> You're wrong. TCO isn't important. Return on Investment is. > >Don't you think that TCO is a factor in calculating overall ROI? Heck, I'll >go out on a limb and say that it is often a major factor in overall ROI. My computer at home has a very low TCO. However the ROI on it is a negative number. It doesn't matter how much/little it costs to run a computer. What matters is how much the person using the computer earns over the cost of the computer. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> Microsoft Windows NT 4.0. The world's only fully buzzword compliant Operating System.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:35:53 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1801990935540001@wil134.dol.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com> In article <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:52:39 -0500, Tim Scoff <casper@nb.net> wrote: > >>Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many > >>MIS types haven't figured that out. > > > > You're wrong. TCO isn't important. Return on Investment is. > > Don't you think that TCO is a factor in calculating overall ROI? Heck, I'll > go out on a limb and say that it is often a major factor in overall ROI. Not quite. Tim was correct on this. There are two major factors affecting ROI: Cost of ownership and productivity. Since the Mac wins on both, it's not an issue. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:44:59 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1801990945000001@wil134.dol.net> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77v70k$1ju$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> In article <77v70k$1ju$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, richk@nexus.carleton.ca (Richard Kulisz) wrote: > In article <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu>, > David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: > >: Well excuse me, I wish to remind you that there is more to the world > >: then just the good old USA. I am not from the land of the couch > >: potato. > > > >What industrious nation would you hail from then? I would like to > >begin to collect gross generalizations immediately. > > US citizens watch an average of more than 6 hours of television a day > which is almost twice more the next highest national average (Canada) > but 1/3 less than Japan with an average of 9 hours and 20 minutes a day. Hmmm. Seems rather strange. Japan also has the longest school year of any industrialized nation and (the last time I checked), one of the longest work weeks. When do they sleep? -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Relax, Your Yellow Box Simply Has a Marketing Problem - Try a Marketing Solution Date: 18 Jan 1999 16:00:50 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Distribution: world Message-ID: <77vlri$i0j@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> References: <77ncdn$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> tom__98@my-dejanews.com writes > ... I was hoping that after > the Apple/NeXT merger, I would be able to get OpenStep development > tools for my workgroup for less than several thousand dollars per > seat, but Apple never came through on that. With Java 2, the point > has become moot, since Java 2 provides more functionality and > equal performance at a lower cost. > I have doubts about the statement of "equal performance". Maybe if you compile to native platform code, but that's only an option for server code, IMHO. For client code, with the standard Java (i.e. a VM), the performance hit is at least an order of magnitude. So it's fast enough for many applications, but not nearly as fast as ObjectiveC/Appkit. Yours, -- Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ @bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: eric@EMIEng.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: sal@panix.com References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> <36a0b7c3.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <77un0c$5if$4@news.panix.com> Message-ID: <36a354da.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> Date: 18 Jan 99 15:35:54 GMT Sal Denaro wrote: > I wrote: > > Ooh, bad example! The String class *can't* be subclassed, it's a final class. > > Just another reason why Java is so lackluster. > > That was decided for security reasons. > > There are workarounds, IIRC you can subclass stringbuffer if you needed to. Playing devils advocate I see :-) OK, I'll play along. Two more reasons why Java is so lackluster: security implications permeate and impede everything, all to satisfy only the smallest fraction of Java systems ever written or ever will be written. The second, the String and StringBuffer classes aren't related (class-wise). What were they thinking?!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5rIKI.48K@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scott@nospam.doubleu.com Organization: needs one References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan16164217@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:48:18 GMT In <SCOTT.99Jan16164217@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > Besides, your (and Mmalcolm's) risks differ from ours, and we have every > right to be upset. Our largest partner is a $250M/year financial > printer, and they have effectively _zero_ interest in the MacOS market, > now or in the future. Is this short-sighted on their part? In the very > long term, possibly, but as of this moment, their type of market is > nowhere on Apple's radar. Up until MacWorld, we honestly thought it > wouldn't make a difference one way or the other, we'd be able to take > advantage of OpenStep while still operating in our customer's markets. > As of MacWorld it seems like Apple is not only not interested in > non-consumer non-"pro" markets, they are somewhat _anti_-interested > in them. And it's deja-vu all over again. > I was? Hmm, interesting, I didn't think I was telling anyone that > there was a logical reason for my decision. I would call talking about risk-factors an appeal at a logical reason. > I'd say that the hallmark of an OpenStep developer is that they > will claim that they have made their choices based on clear > technical reasons. Here you lay waste to that claim. I'm not > pointing the finger here, I never believed it in the first place. > > I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this stuff from. I > chose to develop under OpenStep for purely technical reasons. That's what I said. > pissed off because I'm very probably going to have to stop developing > under OpenStep for entirely non-technical reasons that are outside of > my or my employer's control. I've never claimed that I'm going away > because of technical stortfalls in YellowBox. That's not what I said. > Uh, yeah? What's your point? Why not be blunt, state the obvious? > BECAUSE IT IS JUST MY OPINION! Have I stated differently at any point? That's certainly the way I read it. When anyone chose to state their interpretation and that was different than "Apple is killing YB" you wrote off their comments as naive. > I've not tossed names at people. If you honestly think I have, please > go back and reread my postings without pulling in text from adjacent > posts. So far as I can tell, I've no more called you stupid I didn't say stupid, I said naive. Maury
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:02:43 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77vlus$rfa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> maury_remove_this@istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Interesting question. Well here's some partions of the market: > > a) new MacOS users looking for servers > Probably a larger market than the current 10 to 50k or so OpenStep users. I > think it's reasonable to expect 50 to 100k servers I'd guess. However few of > these will be used for serious application boxes. > > b) OpenStep users with Macs > A small group, maybe 5k? I'd expect all of them to run it. They'll be > looking for apps > > c) OpenStep users with PC's that move to Mac > Given realistic (small end) numbers in the 10k range, and a guess of about > 1/2 that will switch, it's another 5k or so. > > So you're looking at a market of some 5k to 10k OS users and another larger > group that will be only partially interested in applications. Still any way I > look at it it's still a larger market than today. Even 5k to 10k new users would mean one, two, and possibly three orders of magnitude more app sales than OPENSTEP/OSX developers have had in the last few years. And it would make a great de facto beta program for apps for OSX itself. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:45:42 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> To: schuldt@apple.com alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) quotes Steven W. Schuldt (sschuldt@mindspring.com) saying: > So take this hint. MacOSX Server on an ice-white and blue G3 make the best > computer you've ever touched. Here at last is the thing you prayed for > every miserable hour spent holding NT's hand as it convulsed, vomiting and > choking on its own excrement in front of you. Here again is the operating > system that cannot be killed. Microsoft and Sun don't know it yet but they > are face to face with the bloody-minded revenge of NEXTSTEP. > NEXTSTEP reborn and hardened into diamond. I think most people here will enthusiastically endorse this view. But a fat lot of good it does most of them if they can't get at OSX Server for less than $1,000. The announced price is great if you need the server-specific aspects like WebObjects, but ludicrous if you want to use it as a workstation. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB Dead? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:09:47 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77vmc2$rs9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0801991530460001@term6-16.vta.west.net> <3696AE41.F880034E@cygnus.com> <SCOTT.99Jan9001958@slave.doubleu.com> <77i62n$jht$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <NtdYDR7g6H6+@cc.usu.edu> <77j9uv$kqq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jsur$sq9@shelob.afs.com> <77mkio$f47$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nrog$931@shelob.afs.com> <77smn7$dvi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > > >Will AFS ship PasteUp and WriteUp for MacOS X Server, > > >regardless of the $995 price or the y2k ship date for MacOS X? > > > > I know this will make me sound like Apple, but a final decision has not > > been made yet. > > I'm sorry Greg, but that makes you sound *exactly* like Apple, and if you're > going to be consistent then what you say here (not to mention what you've > said elsewhere) basically means "WU and PU are dead." Well, I can understand your fear that some of the OSX apps that you expected may not be available, but I think you're beating up on Greg too much. For one thing, his shipment decisions are necessarily conditional on the decisions Apple makes for the OS Greg's apps will run on. For another, you have to take the track record into account; when Apple says "no decision has been made" the track record indicates the probably meaning is "they're dead". I don't think Greg's track record indicates the same thing. The words may be the same, but the context is not. > I've put a lot of effort into using PasteUp over the last year on the > understanding from your announcements that they at least would be apps which > would make the transition from OPENSTEP to MacOS X relatively painless. Now > you're cutting your customers off at the knees. If so, he's only removing the little bits of loose flesh left after Apple got there first. It makes very little difference to me whether Greg ships or not as long as I can't get the OS his apps run on except at a prohibitive price. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77vlus$rfa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <OdJo2.24$xJ1.26@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:23:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:23:10 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <77vlus$rfa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > maury_remove_this@istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote:- > > c) OpenStep users with PC's that move to Mac > > Given realistic (small end) numbers in the 10k range, and a guess of about > > 1/2 that will switch, it's another 5k or so.- That is insanely optimistic imo. A great os will sell itself if it provides a better way of doing what you need, but not at the cost of having to invest in new hardware. Using intel is like investing in mutual funds; your future isn't tied too closely to the fortunes of any one company, thereby leveraging your risk associated with using a particular platform. Apple has been around a while, but they've been anything but a shining example of health these last ten years. Going MOSXS means dumping your future onto the back of Apple, who I wouldn't trust to carry me to the Promised Land. > Even 5k to 10k new users would mean one, two, and possibly three orders of > magnitude more app sales than OPENSTEP/OSX developers have had in the last > few years. And it would make a great de facto beta program for apps for OSX > itself.- There isn't any guarantee Apple will continue to support this technology.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:48:51 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> To: leadership@apple.com maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Apple is moving to OS-X shortly, can you provide any reasonable arguments > that it is _clearly_ in Apple's best interests to release a largely > incompatible OS (with either of the others you'd compare it with) for a > period that's likely to last about one year? First, "shortly" probably means a year, and that's not "shortly" in my book. Second, I would challenge "largely incompatible". There's backward compatibility with MacOS through Bluebox, and forward compatibility to OSX through YB, with Carbon also helping out. I see no major compability problems. Look, it's a straight cost-benefit analysis. What are the costs of shipping a workstation version of OSX Server? -- In terms of distribution media, they are zero or minimal, since it would mainly involve NOT ENABLING some of the additional features of OSX Server, like Webobjects. -- In terms of marketing, they're only as large as Apple chooses to make them. I personally think they could do none at all, selling only to people who know enough to already want it and who can find the necessary ordering info on Apple's website. Which also helps with the next point: -- In terms of market positioning and the possibility of "confusion" by users this is partly dependent on marketing decisions; see previous point. If this is really a serious concern, a new name could easily address it, at the cost of having to print up new box covers. Alternatively, and more cheaply, place a prominent sticker about what OSX "workstation" is _not_ on that envelope you have to rip open to get at the disks. Are there any other downsides? Feel free to mention them if I forgot any. But frankly, it seems to me the cost of a OSX "Workstation" distribution appear minimal. Now, if the costs are small, the benefits don't have to be very large before "it is _clearly_ in Apple's best interests" to release such a version. What are these benefits: -- Monetary. Cash from sales. Probably not huge, but considering that the development work is done and the very small cost of distribution, this would all be pure profit. At least some of these sales would also generate hardware sales, thus adding the margin on that sale to the benefit. -- Support for YB developers. As you've speculated in another post, the current OSX Server sales plan will likely generate few app sales. An OSX workstation product would generate substantially more. This is important for them -- Financially. Nice to have some income after all these years. -- Helps them refine their apps for the release of OSX itself, ensuring that bugs are removed, feature sets are refined, and usability issues are resolved. Which in turn helps Apple by -- Helping to build momentum for OSX through increased exposure of many of its features to potential users and refinement of a core of apps that take advantage of these features, thus making OSX a much more compelling buy from day one. -- Helping restore Apple's credibility. Positive financial results are certainly helping turn perceptions of Apple around, but I still see a lot of skepticism about long-term direction, particularly among developers and business users. Apple doesn't need another example of (i) poor marketing decisions and (ii) breaking promises developers relied on to add to the considerable list of such examples. There are probably more, but it seems to me that these alone are more than sufficient to justify the minimal cost of a OSX "workstation" distribution. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:03:22 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77vpgi$uo5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Noooooo, the OS I'm using might be fine for some power users and servers, > but it's IMHO not ready for desktop deployment. if by 'desktop deployment' you mean putting it on every iMac that ships, then I agree. But I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. A MacOSX "workstation" version would clearly be targeted at technically-savvy users -- the kind of people who would use WNT workstation. And for the desktops in that market, I would argue very strongly that OSX Server was ready for deployment some time ago. > > ... _I_ need a new desktop OS _now_. > > And so do I, but that's still not the issue. Look, we all have the same > choices here, wait the year or get out. yes, but it's really ridiculous to have to wait when a product that would satisfy our needs is available NOW, if Apple would just sell it to us at an affordable price. Waiting when you have to is one thing, waiting just because of a boneheaded marketing decision is quite another. > Scott's gone one way, mmalc's > going the other. I'm sticking too, to the bitter end. Worse, I'm not 100% > convinced YB will ever ship, but I'm STILL going to wait and find out. > For me the choice is clear. If you choose different, great! That's why > we have quantum wave collapse after all. The loss of the Scotts of the world makes waiting much less appealing. > And come on people, how is any of this different that the situation two > years ago? Then it was uncertain that the company wouldn't go out of > business and take the OS with it. In addition it was pretty clear they > were not going forward with the OS. The difference is now that only the > later is a possibility, one most of us dismiss as moronic. Most of us are dismissing as moronic Apple's decision to sell OSX Server only at a prohibitive price, and to not sell OSX Server/intel at all. That these decisions are moronic doesn't seem to have stopped Apple from making them. So let's not stake our optimism on the fact that certain decisions would be moronic. Two things have changed since two years ago: (i) Apple is profitable, and (ii) OS X Server exists and is ready to ship. Had OSX Server been available two years ago, Apple's unprofitability may well have turned people off OSX Server. I, for one, would have been wary of buying Apple hardware to run it on. I would have not such compuction now. Now, two years ago, I could not demand Apple sell me something which didn't exist, but now OSX Server does exist, so I go back to my original question: > > since Apple _has_ a new desktop OS _now_, why not sell it to me, since it > > costs them so little to do so? > > But _that's_ the $64*10^3 question isn't it? To which we still don't have a satisfactory answer. We have lots of people saying they should. And even people who are more favorably disposed, like you, seem to be saying they should but that it's not the end of the world if they don't. Not exactly a compelling argument for not doing so. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36A36D12.F3A2BFCD@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:19:22 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:24:46 CDT Alex Kac wrote: > In article <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, > satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) wrote: > > >Does AIX use DPS or X11 for it's windowing system btw? > > Definately not DPS. As I recall, DPS is available for AIX/X11. -Eric
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:16:01 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <stevehix-1801991016020001@192.168.1.10> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com> <casper-1801990922280001@192.168.1.3> Organization: Blackrock Systems In article <casper-1801990922280001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: > In article <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > > >On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:52:39 -0500, Tim Scoff <casper@nb.net> wrote: > >>>Shouldn't be an issue. Low TCO _should_ be more important. Too bad so many > >>>MIS types haven't figured that out. > >> > >> You're wrong. TCO isn't important. Return on Investment is. > > > >Don't you think that TCO is a factor in calculating overall ROI? Heck, I'll > >go out on a limb and say that it is often a major factor in overall ROI. > > My computer at home has a very low TCO. However the ROI on it is a > negative number. It doesn't matter how much/little it costs to run a > computer. What matters is how much the person using the computer earns > over the cost of the computer. And the ROI has to take TCO into account. TCO isn't enough by itself, ROI isn't independent of TCO...
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:50:35 -0600 From: alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) Mail-Copies-To: alex@webis.net Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <alex-1801991250350001@cs48-101.austin.rr.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991050550001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <3Moo2.4560$xq4.1150@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <alex-1701991433560001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <36A36D12.F3A2BFCD@mediaone.net> Organization: Web Information Solutions Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy In article <36A36D12.F3A2BFCD@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: >As I recall, DPS is available for AIX/X11. But not as the default install. -- Alex Kac Web Information Solutions CEO Dynamic Business Publishing - Everyware Alliance Member http://www.WebIS.net
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:41 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77vvpt$4n6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <77s6uq$2fh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <77s6uq$2fh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > In article <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net>, > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: [ ... ] >>> Otherwise a company could write one line of code, say its not complete, and >>> it is suddenly "created". >> >> There is a lot more than one line of code in Rhapsody. That's a silly >> example. > > It illustrates the slippery-slope nature of your definition. When is a product > more than vapor? When it's 50% done, 90% done, etc? I consider it to be more > than vapor only when it is 100% done. That definition means that every single beta release is vaporware. Given how many people have used beta versions of a web browser all the time, I don't think your definition is quite right. When a product has beta copies out and being used, and the beta substantially implements the functionality that the final product is supposed to, it's not vaporware. >> AFAIK it *did* ship to developers. > > No it didn't. DR2 is not identical to the product that is suppost to ship in > February. Of course it's not identical. Otherwise they could've released MOXS back when DR2 was released. The question is whether DR2 and the final release are substantially comparible in terms of the functionality. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:03:13 -0700 Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology Message-ID: <mazulauf-1801991203140001@happy.met.utah.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <slrn7a2md0.ira.mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu> <znu-1701990305510001@ppp-20.ts-9.nyc.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 19:00:58 GMT In article <znu-1701990305510001@ppp-20.ts-9.nyc.idt.net>, znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) wrote: > In article <slrn7a2md0.ira.mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu>, > mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: > > > In a very limited sense. There is only one Apple person working on it > > (Gilbert Colville), and I'm not sure if he's MkLinux full time. He's > > mainly working on drivers I believe, and leaving Linux kernel work to > > the "private" individuals (who are actually getting quite a bit done). > > It is open source after all, so if it dies it's not Apple's fault. If it > were really that popular it would keep going without Apple's help. But > LinuxPPC really is quite a bit better, so I don't really see any need for > Mk. You probably don't see any need for MkLinux because you don't have a machine that's not supported by LinuxPPC. I do have such a machine (a NuBus PowerMac). I also agree that it's good that others are working on MkLinux now. Apple got it off to a decent start, but in my opinion the private individuals are doing much more with it now than Apple ever would. I also trust them considerably more than I trust Apple. Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5rrFM.8y7@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: satan@hell.home.com Organization: needs one References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77vlus$rfa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <OdJo2.24$xJ1.26@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:59:45 GMT In <OdJo2.24$xJ1.26@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Michael Lankton wrote: > That is insanely optimistic imo. A great os will sell itself if it > provides a better way of doing what you need, but not at the > cost of having to invest in new hardware. Sure, but I'm not talking about people who just want to experiment, I'm talking about people with real investment in the product today. I figure 1/2 will give it up, the other half won't. _We_ bought new hardware, I don't think it will be _that_ uncommon. But all of these pale in comparison to the potential new market. I think the numbers I posted on that will be pretty close to the truth, but the real question is how many of them will buy apps. > There isn't any guarantee Apple will continue to support this technology. There never was. Maury
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:05:26 -0700 Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology Message-ID: <mazulauf-1801991205270001@happy.met.utah.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116105120652038@ts5-36.aug.com> <FD2o2.4480$xq4.1146@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <19990116153313940127@ts2-27.aug.com> <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <slrn7a2md0.ira.mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu> <36a1b0dc.665964@news.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 1999 19:03:11 GMT In article <36a1b0dc.665964@news.tiac.net>, ssc@stclair.com wrote: > On 17 Jan 1999 03:31:39 GMT, mazulauf@fractus.met.utah.edu (Mike > Zulauf) wrote: > > >In article <BO9o2.4538$xq4.1254@news.rdc1.ne.home.com>, Michael Lankton wrote: > >>In <stevehix-1601991536300001@192.168.1.10> Steve Hix wrote: > >>> > Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> > > Besides mklinux (which has been abandoned) > >>> > >>> Try again. Do your homework.- > >> > >>You are right. The Open Group dropped development, but Apple is still > >>working on it it appears. My bad. > > > >In a very limited sense. There is only one Apple person working on it > >(Gilbert Colville), and I'm not sure if he's MkLinux full time. He's > >mainly working on drivers I believe, and leaving Linux kernel work to > >the "private" individuals (who are actually getting quite a bit done). > > See Linux Journal, Jan 1999. Why? Give me an idea what to expect, or simply summarize what is there. I'm pretty familiar with what's going on with MkLinux, being subscribed to several of the MkLinux mailing lists, and having corresponded with the people who are actually working on it. Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77o5th$bdd$1@news.xmission.com> <77r3f1$oa8$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <77r6s6$d94$2@news.xmission.com> In-Reply-To: <77r6s6$d94$2@news.xmission.com> From: kris@geo.planetary.net (Kristopher Magnusson) Message-ID: <36a3878b.0@news3.uswest.net> Date: 18 Jan 1999 13:12:11 +0600 On 01/16/99, Don Yacktman wrote: >Something acceptably close to Objective-C categories but that would >fit within the Java security paradigm has already been proposed. I just >don't think Sun will ever pay attention to it. It's not just mixins, it's things such as JFC and JNDI. Both are part of the javax package namespace, while JFC is distributed as a core Java2 component and JNDI isn't. Go figure. Sun's tight control over Java is yet another demonstration why it's more efficient for a market that an API or language specification should exist outside the absolute control of a single company. Trying to control the implementation of a language and API specification to milk it for all it's worth is bound to be bad for the people who depend on the implementation. It's no wonder free software is really starting to take off. ........ kris
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:17:09 -0800 Organization: Graves Associates Message-ID: <gmgraves-1801991117100001@sf-usr0-26-90.dialup.slip.net> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> In article <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net>, znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) wrote: >In article ><793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net>, >1050pi@netscape.net wrote: > >> On 16 Jan 1999 02:55:36 GMT, Hugh Johnson >> <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: >> >> >I've been thinking... If a clever but reluctant CEO (who shall remain >> >nameless) wanted to find a buyer for his old ailing technology company, >> >wouldn't it be a good idea to follow a two-stage plan: >> > >> >Stage One: rekindle the old innovative spirit and strut the company's >> >stuff, so to speak, to boost the inherent value. >> > >> >Stage Two: make a series to dumb-ass marketing decisions to depress the >> >stock price and make it more tempting bait. >> > >> >If said CEO is still an iCEO after the shareholder's meeting, this is >> >how the puzzle starts coming together, I think. >> >> The question is, who? >> >> I see two prime suspects: >> >> 3Com and Sun >> >> An Apple/3Com company would make itself THE Home Area Network company. > >Apple already tried to buy PlamComputing from 3com... And now that have >that allience... Hmm... the plot thickens. > >No, but really, I don't think SJ wants to sell Apple to anyone. Steve's wife and friends say that Apple is Steve's first love and his passion. He'll never let it slip from betwen his fingers a second time. -- George Graves
From: madings@earth.execpc.com (Steve Mading) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 18 Jan 1999 13:24:14 -0600 Organization: ExecPC -- (800)-EXECPC-1 Message-ID: <7801p0$nhr@newsops.execpc.com> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77v70k$1ju$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> Richard Kulisz (richk@nexus.carleton.ca) wrote: : In article <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu>, : David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: : >: Well excuse me, I wish to remind you that there is more to the world : >: then just the good old USA. I am not from the land of the couch : >: potato. : > : >What industrious nation would you hail from then? I would like to : >begin to collect gross generalizations immediately. : US citizens watch an average of more than 6 hours of television a day : which is almost twice more the next highest national average (Canada) : but 1/3 less than Japan with an average of 9 hours and 20 minutes a day. Those numbers don't add up. If you spend 9:20 a day watching TV, there isn't enough no time for your job or school. I doubt the Japaneese are playing hookey en masse, so something smells fishy about your figures. I know that in the US there are a lot of families that leave the TV running as background 'ambience' even when they aren't actively watching anything (pretty stupid, I know). I wouldn't count that time as really "watching" TV. More like being in the same room when the TV happens to be on. -- Steve Mading: madings@execpc.com http://www.execpc.com/~madings
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:37:20 -0500 From: <gbh@middlemarch.net> To: spagiola@my-dejanews.com cc: leadership@apple.com Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy In-Reply-To: <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Heller Information Services > [...] > Look, it's a straight cost-benefit analysis. What are the costs of shipping a > workstation version of OSX Server?... > > Are there any other downsides? Feel free to mention them if I forgot > any... Apple's main concern is that they do not have support in place to sell an OSX-S Workstation to the public. I assume they intend to address this by selling OSX-S to those in the Developer Program at a discounted price. What Apple needs to release more so than a Workstation version is to relase an OSX-S Client that is sold only to those who purchase the Server. Since these will be sold mostly to System and Network Admins it means that it won't increase the amount of support Apple needs to provide that much. The Client version would exclude the Developer tools and should sell for the same price as OS 8.x giving the Network admins a choice of what to install on their clusters of Macs. The Network admins would get the advantage of being able to use NetInfo, and developers would get a user base in which to sell their apps. Greg
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Followup-To: talk.politics.misc Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:45:02 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7802vr$7i6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <76udhh$9sd$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77pprh$1jm$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <77u4lf$s02$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77v618$sr$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> In article <77v618$sr$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, richk@nexus.carleton.ca (Richard Kulisz) wrote: > In article <77u4lf$s02$1@hecate.umd.edu>, > David T. Wang <davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu> wrote: [ ... ] > Of course, all of this is a lie. If the US economy is "efficient" then > how come it has a large chunk of its population unemployed? That's because > the definition of efficiency most people care to use does not coincide > with the one /you/ use and it becomes obvious when they diverge. From http://stats.bls.gov/eag.table.html: The US unemployment rate for Dec 1998 was 4.3%; the last time unemployment was lower was in Mar 1970 at 4.0%, according to the Department of Labor. But hey, don't let the fact that US unemployment is at a 20-year low (almost) get in the way of your argument. But do us a favor and talk about it somewhere else, not in the comp.*.advocacy groups. Follows redirected. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 18 Jan 1999 19:58:11 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <7803oj$1tv$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77o5th$bdd$1@news.xmission.com> <77r3f1$oa8$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <77r6s6$d94$2@news.xmission.com> <36a3878b.0@news3.uswest.net> Kristopher Magnusson <kris@geo.planetary.net> wrote: : Sun's tight control over Java is yet another demonstration why it's : more efficient for a market that an API or language specification : should exist outside the absolute control of a single company. Trying : to control the implementation of a language and API specification to : milk it for all it's worth is bound to be bad for the people who : depend on the implementation. I'd quibble with this a little. Control of Java is a little wider than a single company ... but not by a whole lot. If I had to give a number, I'd call it 1.25 or 1.33 companies to recognize that there is a little "give" when pressure builds. And of course Kaffe and Japhar work into it somehow. Contrast this to the genuinely "single company" standards. : It's no wonder free software is really starting to take off. Free projects can be quite democratic. One of the ways project leaders compensate contributors is by giving value to their ideas. Project leaders who always mail back "my way!" probably notice a decline in contributions ;-). John
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 18 Jan 1999 19:55:31 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> gbh@middlemarch.net wrote: > > [...] > > Look, it's a straight cost-benefit analysis. What are the costs of shipping a > > workstation version of OSX Server?... > > > > Are there any other downsides? Feel free to mention them if I forgot > > any... > Apple's main concern is that they do not have support in place to sell an > OSX-S Workstation to the public. Actually I think the main issue is that, when OS X ships, it may be difficult to sell a workstation version of OSX Server. There may be too much overlap, and the Workstation product could end up without enough of a market. If it's only got six months of viability, why bother?
From: lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 18 Jan 1999 19:06:51 GMT Organization: a guest of Shadow Island Games Message-ID: <7800ob$iua@news1.newsguy.com> References: <77vttd$2ve$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > Sort of. I have been accusing you and some other Linux advocates of falsely > claiming Linux to be the dominant factor in the Open Source movement, and for > denying credit to other Open Source projects. Sticking my nose into your little flamewar, I can only ask: What good do you expect out of accusing people? Maybe you should invest in some social skills. -- greg
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Another data point -> $15.99 Date: 18 Jan 1999 20:24:12 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <78059c$1tv$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> I post this not as a real attempt to change anyone's mind about MacOS X Server pricing, but simply as another data point. A number of people have prefaced their discussions of Server pricing with comments along the lines of "at $995, MacOS X Server is certainly a good value". I don't doubt that is true for some users and some roles. I have been considering a new OS purchase and have finally made a decision. I don't expect that everyone will be in the same situation or choose the same, but I think it provides an interesting contrast to a MacOS X Server purchase. I am a software developer and I do most of my work on UNIX systems, with a little NT on the side. My current system is a K6/233 with swappable hard drives which allow me to boot WinNT, Win98, BeOS, and Red Hat Linux. With that arraingement I don't have to worry too much about which OS is best, I just boot the one I want to run at the moment. It has worked out pretty well for me. Lately, I've found a lot of interesting things to do with Red Hat: experimenting with GNOME, writing some Web automation code in bash and C, and general play with the Gimp and POV-RAY. I decided that Linux gives me enough interesting things to do that I don't really need to spend any more money. But to save myself a little download time and try some different distributions I've decided to order Linuxmall's Linux MegaPak for $15.99: http://www.linuxmall.com/Allprod/00848.html The contents of the pack are: Caldera OpenLinux Lite 1.3 Debian 2.0 FreeBSD 2.2.8 Linux Pro 5.4 Mandrake 5.2 Red Hat Linux 5.2 S.u.S.E. 5.3 Slackware 3.6 TurboLinux 3.0 I know some people are lined up here for MacOS X Server, but I wonder if I'm the only one to go the other way? John
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:00:24 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Message-ID: <1dlu25l.1rdfl3f1ihfk92N@roxboro0-044.dyn.interpath.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <77s6uq$2fh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77vvpt$4n6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: > quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > [ ... ] > >>> Otherwise a company could write one line of code, say its not > >>> complete, and it is suddenly "created". > >> > >> There is a lot more than one line of code in Rhapsody. That's a silly > >> example. > > > > It illustrates the slippery-slope nature of your definition. When is a > > product more than vapor? When it's 50% done, 90% done, etc? I consider > > it to be more than vapor only when it is 100% done. > > That definition means that every single beta release is vaporware. Given > how many people have used beta versions of a web browser all the time, I > don't think your definition is quite right. It's definitely not right because there's always one more bug to fix and one more feature to add -- even if you haven't worked on it in a while it's still there. > When a product has beta copies out and being used, and the beta > substantially implements the functionality that the final product is > supposed to, it's not vaporware. The term vaporware is a bit slippery, but not in the manner that Quinlan is suggesting -- vaporware refers to a promised but undelivered product. So if today I say I have the next great mailer, and that I'll be shipping it next week it's not vaporware, 6 months from now, after I haven't released it, it will be. Under THIS standard the key /capabilities/ of OS8/Copland/Raphsody/MacOSX (particularly protected memory) are are about a decade late, which makes it most definitely vaporware and it will continue to be vaporware no matter how many times they change directions or names, until such time as it's been shipped (and given the Mac market "shipped" means "shipped with all or almost all new computers that apple is selling"). Now it's true that SOME of the promised features have actually been delivered (particularly a new file system), I don't think it's unfair to call the "Future Mac System" vaporware until all of them have been delivered (hmn, anybody remember the Patch Manager? I think that the dynamic linking of Objective-C might come close to satisfying that, but then again it's being replaced with Java). But to be fair it wasn't expected until sometime in the 90/91 time frame so it's not a decade late (it's just a been a decade since they first started saying it'd be available). -- John Moreno
From: tom__98@my-dejanews.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:19:36 GMT Subject: cmsg cancel <77vtp2$2nd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <cancel.77vtp2$2nd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Sender: tom__98@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Control: cancel <77vtp2$2nd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service Original Subject:
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:18:32 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <77vttd$2ve$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ch3-1912981645150001@1cust46.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <ch3-2112980756110001@1cust208.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn77t0pt.is1.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75mspn$47v$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <slrn77veq3.529.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <75paui$9oq$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <ol_f2.207$G92.1825@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net> <75453494FE2C84E6.3899E3DAA02EFE7A.F7C81F3E3C1B1933@library-proxy.airnews.net> <368BB59A.8BD7D746@earthlink.net.rem.ove.this> <76lp6j$64@news1.panix.com> <76m778$h3f$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> <76odep$57r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368FD316.6CCDA6B0@nstar.net> <suvidya-0401990038270001@159.newark-38-39rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <369084FA.8E4BAB33@nstar.net> <slrn791t68.7gt.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <369121B0.BC55656B@ericsson.com> <76rm0i$s0b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36919E55.D556838A@nstar.net> In article <36919E55.D556838A@nstar.net>, "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: > Charles Swiger wrote: > [cut] >> Hell, remove bash and the rest of the GNU-based utilities, and you've got a >> kernel that won't get much past loading init. Acknowledge the simple fact >> that Linux owes a great deal to GNU. > > I wonder why you specifically mention GNU, here. Aren't you accusing me > of treating Linux with favoritism in the context of Open Source > software? Sort of. I have been accusing you and some other Linux advocates of falsely claiming Linux to be the dominant factor in the Open Source movement, and for denying credit to other Open Source projects. > Yet here we have GNU arising over and over in your postings. Sure. And sendmail, and Apache, and Perl, and Netscape's Mozilla. [ ...PNG, zlib... ] > These two libraries, as examples among many, are *extremely* common, and > really could form the basis of an argument to the effect that Linux is a > minority contributor to Open Source deployment. Sendmail and Apache wasn't good enough? > But wait; if you made that argument you'd be vulnerable to the fact that > such widely-used projects are used in commercial software...because they > have unrestrictive licensing. And didn't you mention Apache and Perl? > Neither one is distributed under the GPL... Umm, I have mentioned Apache and Perl, yeah. I don't understand this "I'd be vulnerable" remark. The authors of some software have chosen to make their work freely available, without GNU-style restrictions, and yeah, they're used in commercial products. You can see something similar with the usage of byacc instead of GNU bison, sometimes. Fine...but so what? > So what is this really about? Is it about how much GNU has helped > distribute Open Source software... or is it about how GNU might have > hindered it? I have an objection to the way the GPL prevents such code from being used with other Open Source licenses like the BSD. I'd agree the GNU sometimes has hindered Open Source with their extremist position, but then, it was the choice of the authors to put their code under that license.... > Some grist for your mill. Or bait for the hook. Step on up. I guess this means you're leading up to something? -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Mark Kaiman <kaiman@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? Date: 18 Jan 1999 22:28:44 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <36A3B5A0.5589ED66@worldnet.att.net> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <gmgraves-1801991117100001@sf-usr0-26-90.dialup.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I truly hope not. If Jobs had not rescued the company from a long line of incompetent CEO's, I'd be writing this note on some crappy Windows box. Actually, I think I'd have gone back to pencil and paper instead. If Steve goes, Apple's continued profitability and vision would be in serious jeopardy. George Graves wrote: > Steve's wife and friends say that Apple is Steve's first love and his > passion. He'll > never let it slip from betwen his fingers a second time.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:04:42 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: > Actually I think the main issue is that, when OS X ships, it may be > difficult to sell a workstation version of OSX Server. There may be > too much overlap, and the Workstation product could end up without > enough of a market. > If it's only got six months of viability, why bother? When OSX itself ships, it would effectively be OSXS Workstation 2.0, so of course "1.0" would be discontinued. Only six months of viability? You're very optimistic about the shipping date of OSX itself. I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least a year. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 18 Jan 1999 23:27:03 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <780g07$g6s$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <77gquu$fpa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369C1900.78DE5A7B@yahoo.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> <77sp8t$56b$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <77ufjd$n63$1@news.digifix.com> <77vfpa$onn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <77vfpa$onn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> On 01/18/99, John Jensen wrote: <snip> >: However, you forget the fact that there is substantially more >: provided by Apple than just Mac OS X Server for this number. That >: $500 currently funds WWDR, as well as the mailings, and would also >: need to pay Adobe and other license fees for Mac OS X Server. > >My original objection was to your statement: > >"Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free." > >You seem to have moved forward from that apalling sense of economics Are you claiming that if you could join a $500 program (and get the OS) instead of paying $1000 for the OS that you wouldn't? Apple found that people would join the $500 program and then buy discounted hardware for themselves and their friends and never develop a damn thing. >to consider finer details such as cost of production, margin, and >the like. > Because you claimed that Apple could then crow about 5000 new developers. Mac OS X Server does cost Apple more than just an R & D and duplication cost per copy... i.e. Licensing. >You might also consider if a $500 developer could actually develop >for the platform if the OS was not included ... and perhaps work >out the starting costs for a new programmer interested in MacOS >X Server. There is no requirement of joining the program to develop for Mac OS X Server. You need only the software and hardware. Rarely do you require the support. I'm not sure that new programmers require seeds either.. Unfortunately, Apple appears to be building some barriers there by not releasing an Intel version which many of the Windows hacks could try out. Major mistake. Edu pricing on Intel could be a major attractor for student developers. I'm going to eliminate the hardware from the solution at length... if you have it you're set.. if you don't, then its about $2000 (new G3 and 17" Monitor at edu discounts). I think most of these folks aren't going to be going out and buying new products Mac OS X Server will be made available at an academic discount. Just how steep that discount is going to be is something that we don't currently know. It would be nice if we could look to the Edu pricing on WebObjects as a guide. But unless Apple removes AppleShare IP and NetBooting, I don't think thats a realistic pricing. We've also been told that developers will get a discount. So if you need the support, and want the seeds, you should be able to get into the ADC program and Mac OS X Server (possibly without AppleShare IP, NetBoot and WOF) for some combined price less than Mac OS X Server retail. > >Beyond that, your statement that "Anyone would" may be optimistic. >There are a lot of free and interesting things out there on the >internet. One example would be Apple's Carbon tools, in the form >of MPW(*), which are available as a free downoad. There is a lot >of competition for developer attention, and $500 is $500. > I doubt that even the shifting to Carbon will attract that many developers to traditional Mac OS programming. Most developers now are looking at Object-Oriented development, and require robust frameworks to start with. The traditional free downloads of Mac OS tools don't include anything of substantive use there (MacApp included) -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: mac on tv Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:13:33 -0500 Organization: international sand club Message-ID: <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tune in to the WB on Tuesday at 9pm EST to see the Mac make a guest appearance. It gets dropped over and over and over.. -elvina
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 19 Jan 1999 00:26:34 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <780jfq$84l$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 00:26:34 GMT malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com>, > > Apple has stated that OSX would have a POSIX layer. > Note, however, that according to one of the engineers they're not going to > bother to go through all the hassles of getting official POSIX certification. > It should be properly compliant, but for some contracts I presume this would > be insufficient? Correct. There are lots of reasons to have POSIX, but the *really* big reason to have POSIX at all is to be able to sell to government installations and their subcontractors, which require it. Trouble is, you also need certification. Claiming POSIX compatibility but not having certification is like claiming you can drive a car but not owning a driver's license. Just as the police will burst into laughter when they pull you over, all those big lucrative government customers are going to look MacOSX and try not to chuckle too loud, at least not within earshot of the Apple sales rep. POSIX certification isn't cheap, but Apple's not that foolish. My guess is that if MacOSX isn't to be certified, it's probably because it's not actually compatible. Sean
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 19 Jan 1999 01:45:52 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <780o4g$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: > > Actually I think the main issue is that, when OS X ships, it may be > > difficult to sell a workstation version of OSX Server. There may be > > too much overlap, and the Workstation product could end up without > > enough of a market. > > If it's only got six months of viability, why bother? > When OSX itself ships, it would effectively be OSXS Workstation 2.0, so of > course "1.0" would be discontinued. > Only six months of viability? You're very optimistic about the shipping date > of OSX itself. I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least a year. I'm pessimistic on how long it would take them to productize a Workstation version. In technical terms, it'd be pretty quick. Red tape, license negotiation, QA (?), CD duplication, and other hassles would probably draw out the process.
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 19 Jan 1999 01:48:08 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <780o8o$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <77vttd$2ve$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7800ob$iua@news1.newsguy.com> Greg Lindahl <lindahl@pbm.com> wrote: > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > > Sort of. I have been accusing you and some other Linux advocates of falsely > > claiming Linux to be the dominant factor in the Open Source movement, and for > > denying credit to other Open Source projects. > Sticking my nose into your little flamewar, I can only ask: > What good do you expect out of accusing people? Maybe you should > invest in some social skills. Nah. Examining society today, I'd say that social skills should be a short position.
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 19 Jan 1999 01:54:23 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <780okf$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <780jfq$84l$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> wrote: > Correct. There are lots of reasons to have POSIX, but the *really* big > reason to have POSIX at all is to be able to sell to government > installations and their subcontractors, which require it. Trouble is, you > also need certification. > Claiming POSIX compatibility but not having certification is like claiming > you can drive a car but not owning a driver's license. Just as the police > will burst into laughter when they pull you over, all those big lucrative > government customers are going to look MacOSX and try not to chuckle too > loud, at least not within earshot of the Apple sales rep. POSIX > certification isn't cheap, but Apple's not that foolish. My guess is that > if MacOSX isn't to be certified, it's probably because it's not > actually compatible. Has NT 4's lack of security certification hurt it? I'd think they'd want that for an OS that's driving a cruiser. If I'm not mistaken, only a particular configuration of NT 3.51 was certified (to whatever that level was) but they kept advertising it for quite a while. I'd expect that if a government agency wants something, they can often get it regardless of the regulations, if they get the right signature. Wasn't all military development supposed to be done in Ada?
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:55:13 -0500 From: Joshua Whalen <jwhalen@inch.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Message-ID: <jwhalen-180119992055132067@tc4-dial-193-142.oldslip.inch.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net> <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5MEnF.Hr8@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.0.0 Organization: The Internet Channel In article <F5MEnF.Hr8@T-FCN.Net>, Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: > In <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" wrote: > > But syslog can be useful to developers for tracking the execution of > > program logic-- business rules, transactions being processed, > > Sure. I suppose my only problem with it "in theory" is that it's not > always clear where particular messages are going to end up, in the log, the > console, or somewhere else. At the same time the standards seem to be > either non-existant or simply not followed. It just needs to be cleaned up > with some guidelines, but that seems to describe the vast majority of Unix. > > Speaking of, why does ftp still suck so bad? I was trying to upload a > file and couldn't do it. Why not? Because I couldn't figure out how to > set the mode to binary. I tried "mode binary" which makes sense to me, but > it replied "we support only STREAM mode, sorry". So I did a "mode stream". > Same thing. "mode STREAM". Nope. "mode s"? Nope. > > Then I read the man, which basically says nothing useful whatsoever. > You'd think this would be a common question but apparently the author > didn't think so so there's no examples of how to set the mode. However the > end of the document refers to "type image" so I tried various "mode image" > incarnations with the same result. Of course the actual solution, simply > "binary" is not mentioned in reference to "mode", nor is the explaination > of the difference between mode and type explained anywhere. > > And to think that in all the versions of ftp, no one bothered to either > fix this, or document it. > > Maury Try typing "B", and nothing else. This is why some of us Mac weenies are rather glad that Carbon will provide a smooth transition to a YB based OS/API. There is nothing on earth like Anarchie when it comes to file transfer. Not even RBrowser comes close. Needless to say, the combo of Unix file system speed with Anarchie's ease of use will make for one fast way to fill up my hard disk. Joshua
From: wilykat@tds.net (Wilykat) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:56:29 -0500 Organization: Thundera Message-ID: <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> wrote: > Tune in to the WB on Tuesday at 9pm EST to see the Mac make a guest > appearance. > > It gets dropped over and over and over.. I hope that was a torture test to prove Macs are more durable than any PeeCee.
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 19 Jan 1999 01:41:58 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <780nt6$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> <77sp8t$56b$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <77ufjd$n63$1@news.digifix.com> <77vfpa$onn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <780g07$g6s$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > On 01/18/99, John Jensen wrote: > <snip> > >: However, you forget the fact that there is substantially more > >: provided by Apple than just Mac OS X Server for this number. That > >: $500 currently funds WWDR, as well as the mailings, and would also > >: need to pay Adobe and other license fees for Mac OS X Server. > > > >My original objection was to your statement: > > > >"Anyone would join a $500 program to get a $1000 OS free." > > > >You seem to have moved forward from that apalling sense of economics > Are you claiming that if you could join a $500 program (and > get the OS) instead of paying $1000 for the OS that you wouldn't? > Apple found that people would join the $500 program and then > buy discounted hardware for themselves and their friends and never > develop a damn thing. Ah, but it's relatively easier to put controls (real or license-based) on software, than on hardware. One limit is to allow only a single free license. Another approach would be to limit the functionality. They could limit the deployment options for the free copy. Another (detestable) option would be to issue each registered developer a dongle, and tie free OSes to that dongle. Another option would be to exclude the BlueBox for developers, which would make it less useful as an enduser OS. It's much harder to control hardware, since the developer *owns* it. The purchaser is free to sell it, trade it, whatever. <snip> > Mac OS X Server will be made available at an academic > discount. Just how steep that discount is going to be is something > that we don't currently know. It would be nice if we could look to > the Edu pricing on WebObjects as a guide. But unless Apple removes > AppleShare IP and NetBooting, I don't think thats a realistic pricing. Removing those would kill the demand, so that wouldn't make any sense. Without those features, it would be useless to education. It's possible they might offer different a lower price for students and faculty, and higher prices for the schools themselves. If the school wants to outfit a lab, or a dorm, they pay full price. If a student wants their own box, they get a discount. A big market for the net-booting will be K-12, and that wouldn't be a big market for faculty/student purchases anyway. Apple could be looking to make their profits on sales of client machines. Net-booting may give schools big incentive to replace their PCs and aging Macs. But then, this sort of speculation tends to be fruitless anyway. For all we know, Apple could set the developer and academic prices in terms of hen's teeth or frog hairs. Here's an idea: rebates. Ship software, get a rebate for the cost of the OS. Low risk for Apple. Developers have an extra incentive to ship something even if they're unsure about the platform's future. At least then they've broken even on the software investment.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 19 Jan 1999 02:01:54 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <780p2i$6gp$1@news.panix.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com> <casper-1801990922280001@192.168.1.3> <stevehix-1801991016020001@192.168.1.10> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 02:01:54 GMT On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:16:01 -0800, Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote: >> My computer at home has a very low TCO. However the ROI on it is a >> negative number. It would be a higher of lower negative number depending on how good or bad an investment you made, or how high or low the TCO was. >> It doesn't matter how much/little it costs to run a >> computer. What matters is how much the person using the computer earns >> over the cost of the computer. YMMV, but at the risk of sounding pedantic, I find this to be an over simplified view of both TCO and ROI. What's better a $5000 car that gets 20mpg or a $50000 car that gets 200mpg? Of course no one can answer that unless they know how many miles you need to drive and how much a gallon of gas is going to cost. Getting a high return isn't always enough to justify the investment. Sometimes it makes more sense to lower the entry costs or work to lower the TCO than to aim for a higher return; especially if you are dealing with hard to quantify returns like "overall productivity" and "owner satisfaction" >And the ROI has to take TCO into account. > >TCO isn't enough by itself, ROI isn't independent of TCO... The "I" in "ROI" stands for "Investment" and that most certainly takes TCO into account.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 19 Jan 1999 02:01:56 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <780p2j$6gp$2@news.panix.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> <36a0b7c3.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <77un0c$5if$4@news.panix.com> <36a354da.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 02:01:56 GMT On 18 Jan 99 15:35:54 GMT, eric@EMIEng.com <eric@EMIEng.com> wrote: >> > Ooh, bad example! The String class *can't* be subclassed, it's a final class. >> > Just another reason why Java is so lackluster. >> >> That was decided for security reasons. >> >> There are workarounds, IIRC you can subclass stringbuffer if you needed to. > > Playing devils advocate I see :-) OK, I'll play along. Two more reasons >why Java is so lackluster: security implications permeate and impede everything, >all to satisfy only the smallest fraction of Java systems ever written or ever >will be written. For what Java was designed for (secure, portable, distributed Apps that can retrieve parts of themselves over various connection types), it does a pretty good job. I would trust a strange Java App downloaded of the web much more than I would trust a strange C App or Perl script. You can't hold Java responsible for people using Java when it is the wrong language to use. It isn't up to the task of writing big Apps, but this is changing now that Java has things like EJBs and RMI. Big Apps can be made up of small Apps that communicate over well known protocols. (And if you don't think this is possible, look at Unix. It is a "big system" made up of thousands of small parts that work in that very way) I am not going to defend the use of Java for tasks where it is not the right tool to use anymore than I would defend the use of Perl for tasks where it is not the right tool to use. Nor would I ever advocate that any one language, library or OS could be all things to all users; that is just silly. > The second, the String and StringBuffer classes aren't related >(class-wise). What were they thinking?! They were thinking that someone would find a hack to get around the built in security provided by String being a final class.
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:33:50 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> In article <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: > gbh@middlemarch.net wrote: > > > [...] > > > Look, it's a straight cost-benefit analysis. What are the costs of shipping a > > > workstation version of OSX Server?... > > > > > > Are there any other downsides? Feel free to mention them if I forgot > > > any... > > > Apple's main concern is that they do not have support in place to sell an > > OSX-S Workstation to the public. > > Actually I think the main issue is that, when OS X ships, it may be > difficult to sell a workstation version of OSX Server. There may be > too much overlap, and the Workstation product could end up without > enough of a market. > > If it's only got six months of viability, why bother? Because YellowBox apps written for OSX Server will work on OSX, and there are penty of people who would be willing to pay big money (but *not* as big as the Server price tag) to get a modern OS from Apple *now*. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:48:06 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Message-ID: <stevehix-1801991848070001@192.168.1.10> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com> <casper-1801990922280001@192.168.1.3> <stevehix-1801991016020001@192.168.1.10> <780p2i$6gp$1@news.panix.com> Organization: Blackrock Systems In article <780p2i$6gp$1@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:16:01 -0800, Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote: No, I didn't. In fact, I wrote none of the following... > >> My computer at home has a very low TCO. However the ROI on it is a > >> negative number. > > It would be a higher of lower negative number depending on how good or bad > an investment you made, or how high or low the TCO was. > > >> It doesn't matter how much/little it costs to run a > >> computer. What matters is how much the person using the computer earns > >> over the cost of the computer. > > YMMV, but at the risk of sounding pedantic, I find this to be an over simplified > view of both TCO and ROI. > > What's better a $5000 car that gets 20mpg or a $50000 car that gets 200mpg? > > Of course no one can answer that unless they know how many miles you need to > drive and how much a gallon of gas is going to cost. Getting a high return > isn't always enough to justify the investment. Sometimes it makes more sense > to lower the entry costs or work to lower the TCO than to aim for a higher > return; especially if you are dealing with hard to quantify returns like > "overall productivity" and "owner satisfaction" > > >And the ROI has to take TCO into account. > > > >TCO isn't enough by itself, ROI isn't independent of TCO... > > The "I" in "ROI" stands for "Investment" and that most certainly takes TCO > into account.
From: genny@ccms.net (Gennica Hamilton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Message-ID: <genny-1801992208200001@ppp10.ccms.net> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <gmgraves-1801991117100001@sf-usr0-26-90.dialup.slip.net> Organization: ......./........ NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:08:22 EDT Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:08:20 -0600 > No, but really, I don't think SJ wants to sell Apple to anyone. > > Steve's wife and friends say that Apple is Steve's first love and his > passion. He'll never let it slip from between his fingers a second time. > > -- > George Graves Steve will never leave Apple... the entire reason he doesn't want to become CEO is that once he does... he is a target at the top... "a chief of the company" he could get "kicked out" just like scott, himself, sculley, spindler, amelio all have... apple is not your normal company... if there is no "top" he can't get fired or kicked out... so I think he has thought this through... plus it plays well into the "think different" concept... Apple is the only huge company with no CEO... and chances are pretty high it never will... I do wonder what would of happened if he was never fired from Apple in the first place... windows certainly wouldn't of ever of happened... at least at the level it did... (that was sculley's error), and "objects": would be much farther along... much of that can still be fixed... steve is going to position the wintel world as "junk" over the coming years and a lot of people will switch over... once apple starts rolling... its going to be 1977 all over again... g e n n i c a
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <gmgraves-1801991117100001@sf-usr0-26-90.dialup.slip.net> <genny-1801992208200001@ppp10.ccms.net> Message-ID: <GOTo2.67$xJ1.15@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:25:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:25:10 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <genny-1801992208200001@ppp10.ccms.net> Gennica Hamilton wrote:- > I do wonder what would of happened if he was never fired from Apple in the > first place... - The disaster that he wrought upon NeXT would have befallen Apple instead. Apple devotees, consider yourself lucky that Jobs wasn't around from '85 to '96, Apple wouldn't exist anymore. FYI, Jobs wasn't fired, he was stripped of his title, but kept on. His pride wouldn't allow him to stay in his reduced capacity, so he left, prematurely selling off his Apple stocks in a rash move that would end up costing him tens if not hundreds of millions.
From: Idoru07@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 19 Jan 1999 04:50:46 GMT Organization: Remove "NoSpam" from email to reply Message-ID: <36A40F36.3EDB4FAD@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <gmgraves-1801991117100001@sf-usr0-26-90.dialup.slip.net> <genny-1801992208200001@ppp10.ccms.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoa, that was a good post Gennica Hamilton wrote: > > No, but really, I don't think SJ wants to sell Apple to anyone. > > > > Steve's wife and friends say that Apple is Steve's first love and his > > passion. He'll never let it slip from between his fingers a second time. > > > > -- > > George Graves > > Steve will never leave Apple... the entire reason he doesn't want to > become CEO is that once he does... he is a target at the top... "a chief > of the company" he could get "kicked out" just like scott, himself, > sculley, spindler, amelio all have... apple is not your normal company... > if there is no "top" he can't get fired or kicked out... so I think he has > thought this through... plus it plays well into the "think different" > concept... Apple is the only huge company with no CEO... and chances are > pretty high it never will... > > I do wonder what would of happened if he was never fired from Apple in the > first place... windows certainly wouldn't of ever of happened... at least > at the level it did... (that was sculley's error), and "objects": would be > much farther along... much of that can still be fixed... steve is going to > position the wintel world as "junk" over the coming years and a lot of > people will switch over... once apple starts rolling... its going to be > 1977 all over again... > > g e n n i c a
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Date: 19 Jan 1999 04:53:19 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <ckoller-1801992103280001@246.long-beach-01-02rs.ca.dial-access.att.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> In article <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com>, szerelem@nospam.geocities.com wrote: > Tune in to the WB on Tuesday at 9pm EST to see the Mac make a guest appearance. > > It gets dropped over and over and over.. > Sorta like most broadcast shows and strategies on the WB...
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 04:48:42 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7812r7$3d1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <joe.ragosta-1401991907090001@elk87.dol.net> <casper-1701992052400001@192.168.1.3> <77un0c$5if$3@news.panix.com> <joe.ragosta-1801990935540001@wil134.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-1801990935540001@wil134.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: > There are two major factors affecting ROI: > > Cost of ownership and productivity. > > Since the Mac wins on both, it's not an issue. I hate when you make this generalization Joe because it is false. The Mac does not have the highest ROI when doing high-end 3D work, it does not have the highest ROI when doing high-volume web serving, etc. So please constrain the domain to make your claim true (or at least plausible). -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:27:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:27:20 PDT spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > alex@webis.net (Alex Kac) quotes Steven W. Schuldt (sschuldt@mindspring.com) > saying: > > So take this hint. MacOSX Server on an ice-white and blue G3 make the best > > computer you've ever touched. [snip hyperbole] > Microsoft and Sun don't know it yet but they > > are face to face with the bloody-minded revenge of NEXTSTEP. > > NEXTSTEP reborn and hardened into diamond. > > I think most people here will enthusiastically endorse this view. But a fat > lot of good it does most of them if they can't get at OSX Server for less > than $1,000. The announced price is great if you need the server-specific > aspects like WebObjects, but ludicrous if you want to use it as a > workstation. > to wit: such hyperpole is perfect example of why $1000 separates dreamers from the doers. -r
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:46:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:46:03 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> Rex Riley wrote:- > to wit: such hyperpole is perfect example of why $1000 separates dreamers from > the doers.- I disagree. It was this lack of understanding the market that killed NeXT in the first place.
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:53:25 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-1901990053250001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> In article <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net>, wilykat@tds.net (Wilykat) wrote: > elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> wrote: > > > Tune in to the WB on Tuesday at 9pm EST to see the Mac make a guest > > appearance. > > > > It gets dropped over and over and over.. > > I hope that was a torture test to prove Macs are more durable than any > PeeCee. Hehe. I don't know about the new G3 laptops, but my old PowerBook 520c floats when closed. (or so I hear. I haven't tested this <g>) It's survived being dropped a few times as well... (I had it in a nice case, but, still). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today znu <at> idt <dot> net ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 18 Jan 99 12:42:54 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan18124254@slave.doubleu.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan14085523@slave.doubleu.com> <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net> <SCOTT.99Jan16164217@slave.doubleu.com> <F5rIKI.48K@T-FCN.Net> In-reply-to: maury@remove_this.istar.ca's message of Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:48:18 GMT In article <F5rIKI.48K@T-FCN.Net>, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes: In <SCOTT.99Jan16164217@slave.doubleu.com> Scott Hess wrote: > Uh, yeah? What's your point? Why not be blunt, state the > obvious? BECAUSE IT IS JUST MY OPINION! Have I stated > differently at any point? That's certainly the way I read it. When anyone chose to state their interpretation and that was different than "Apple is killing YB" you wrote off their comments as naive. When anyone chose to indicate that they thought that specific points of my posting were taking things the wrong way, I responded and indicated why I thought that I was taking things the correct way. "Wrote off their comments as naive" is something _you_ are reading into _my_ postings, not something that _I'm_ writing into them. As I stated in the post you're responding to, if you really think I'm doing this, then you've missed the points of my postings, because I've been making an attempt _not_ to do this. I'm taking Apple's actions hard, but yourself and Mmalcolm are _not_ the enemy, here. > I've not tossed names at people. If you honestly think I have, > please go back and reread my postings without pulling in text > from adjacent posts. So far as I can tell, I've no more called > you stupid I didn't say stupid, I said naive. OK, so I'm guessing this must be the end of this sub-thread, because in the posting I was responding to (Msg-ID <F5MFKJ.I8G@T-FCN.Net>), you wrote: When someone else looks at the same statements and suggests they mean something else, you've blasted them as being naive, which is ^^^^^ terribly unfair even if you're right. One year from now one of us gets to say "I told you so", but in the meantime it's only name calling. So please stop telling people like myself and mmalc that we're stupid for looking at the same evidence and coming to a ^^^^^^ different conclusion. You did say that I told people like yourself and mmalcolm that they were stupid, and I did nothing of the sort. Nor did I say that you were naive. Nor, even, did I say that you were wrong in so many words. I will fully admit to arguing that, in my opinion, my statements are justifiable, and that, again in my opinion, my take on things like the BOF is fairly likely to be right. I'm betting money on it (in the guise of modifying business plans). Does that _imply_ that I think you're wrong? Certainly. But the presented counterarguments imply that there's a group of "you" who think _I'm_ wrong, and I think it would be terribly rude of me to post out loud that people should perhaps shut up because they're contradicting me. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Price of Rice in Japan, was Re: Anti-Japanese FUD now? Date: 18 Jan 99 12:49:01 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan18124901@slave.doubleu.com> References: <76s5ar$9a1$8@hecate.umd.edu> <pxpst2-1001991326160001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36a8d310.6488133@news.magna.com.au> <77cpff$jo6$1@hecate.umd.edu> <77v70k$1ju$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <joe.ragosta-1801990945000001@wil134.dol.net> In-reply-to: joe.ragosta@dol.net's message of Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:44:59 -0500 In article <joe.ragosta-1801990945000001@wil134.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) writes: In article <77v70k$1ju$1@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, richk@nexus.carleton.ca (Richard Kulisz) wrote: > US citizens watch an average of more than 6 hours of television a > day which is almost twice more the next highest national average > (Canada) but 1/3 less than Japan with an average of 9 hours and > 20 minutes a day. Hmmm. Seems rather strange. Japan also has the longest school year of any industrialized nation and (the last time I checked), one of the longest work weeks. When do they sleep? It does help explain their high savings rate. [On second thought, their stock market performance also might help explain that...] -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <781lc4$r4p$4177@news-1.news.gte.net> Control: cancel <781lc4$r4p$4177@news-1.news.gte.net> Date: 19 Jan 1999 10:10:33 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.781lc4$r4p$4177@news-1.news.gte.net> Sender: sfdyyysdjf@yysdjfyysd.com Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 19 Jan 1999 12:37:45 GMT Organization: The secret circle of the NSRC Message-ID: <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit znu wrote: > Because YellowBox apps written for OSX Server will work on OSX, and there Right. And monkeys might fly out of my butt.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 19 Jan 1999 07:10:21 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <781b4t$s6m$1@remarQ.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <780jfq$84l$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <780okf$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> In article <780okf$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: >If I'm not mistaken, >only a particular configuration of NT 3.51 was certified (to >whatever that level was) but they kept advertising it for quite a while. NT 3.51, in some limited configuration, without a network connection. >I'd expect that if a government agency wants something, they can >often get it regardless of the regulations, if they get the right >signature. Wasn't all military development supposed to be done in >Ada? It was only embedded systems. Anyway, the military came to their senses and dropped the Ada requirement a while back. -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:14:02 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Message-ID: <sg.od.in-1901990914020001@10.1.10.170> References: <77vttd$2ve$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7800ob$iua@news1.newsguy.com> <780o8o$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <780o8o$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: > Greg Lindahl <lindahl@pbm.com> wrote: > > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > > > > Sort of. I have been accusing you and some other Linux advocates of falsely > > > claiming Linux to be the dominant factor in the Open Source movement, and for > > > denying credit to other Open Source projects. > > > Sticking my nose into your little flamewar, I can only ask: > > > What good do you expect out of accusing people? Maybe you should > > invest in some social skills. > > Nah. Examining society today, I'd say that social skills should be > a short position. so because everyone else is jumping offa bridge you should too? because everyone else is an asshole, you should be too? because everyone else does it means you should TOO? I strongly lament this trend towards impersonal treatment of other individuals, and the loss of style, flair, and character from the general populace. You too (in general, not you specifically) could learn a lot from Heinlein's story characters about class and style. ;D -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-LeRzIydkdYFN@localhost> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Just waitin' 'n seein'... (Re: OS X Server price strategy) References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <F5MFqK.ICt@T-FCN.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: 19 Jan 99 14:32:19 GMT On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:59:07, maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) thought aloud: > In <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-PzdBUE56vB4d@localhost> taiQ wrote: > > It would be interesting to know where GNUstep might be today if the > > *step community - along with Linux folks - had decided to give it a > > serious push those two years ago (while waiting Apple to release the > > stuff "within 12 months"). > > Indeed, and while we're all predicting the future, can you tell me who to > bet on for the world series next year? Predicting the future? > >GNOME started from near-zero later than > > that and it seems to be doing nice progress already and might well be > > reaching millions of desktop this spring. > > Sucky though it is. GNUStep and GNOME do not, IMHO, reside on the same > level. What level are you talking about? Basically, what matters to me is that something usable and unkillable is out there for anyone to use and develop further. Right now GNOME is enjoying a strong tailwind; could it have been GNUstep instead? Could GNUstep still catch that current? Your answer: "GNOME is sucky". If you're being arrogant it sure doesn't show. > > Java sprang from nowhere to > > become the second-most popular API, and language > > It is neither. The 2nd most popular API is either OWL or MacOS depending > on what numbers you believe (I choose neither). C is the most popular > language, followed by C++, and Java is unlikely to even be third. > Nevertheless you post clearly identifies hype as the real issue. Is that also valid for new development, not to mention the bad m-word (m**ds***e)? > > power. All the while *STEP (and Obj-C) were waiting for someone (Apple > > in this case) to make things happen. > > And isn't it interesting that while we're waiting no one else has managed > to catch up anyway? Catch up? What is there to catch up? Technical finesse? If a tree falls in a forest but no one hears it, does it make a sound? Rgds, -- taiQ [this space is intentionally blank]
From: "Nicodemus Taranovsky" <nico@edgenet.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: WebObjects 4.0 vs. ColdFusion 4.0 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 02:17:31 -0500 Organization: Brown University Message-ID: <781bp4$agq@cocoa.brown.edu> Greetings, We are looking for a rapid application development tool and we are currently examining both ColdFusion and WebObjects (both 4.0). I would very much appreciate an analysis of the differences between the two systems. What kind of organization is more likely to use CF over WO or vice versa. Which product is an ISP more likely to offer as a service? What are the skill levels that are associated with each? If anyone has used both products what are your opinions about their strengths and weaknesses? Many thanks for all your help! Nico Taranovsky Web Group Brown University
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: machang@midway.uchicago.edu (Andrew Chang) Subject: Any future with OPENSTEP/YB ? Message-ID: <F5tFuy.Go6@midway.uchicago.edu> Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:44:57 GMT Hi, I have not followed with the current NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP progress. But it seems the future does not look bright: 1. How many NEW paid users/developers Apple/NeXT got last year? I gues very few. 2. How large is the current commercial user base? It will be lucky if NeXT could retain 50% of the old users. I think most of them are financial institutions. 3. What is Apple/NeXT's plan for support and future releases? I guess they would not have the sales revenues to continue. 4. OminiGroup was acquired by (Sun?). You do not see many new sharewares developed recently. 5. Linux is free and is endorsed by many of the anti-MS people. I'd imagine even some of the die-hard NeXT fans will move to Linux. I do not know much about Linux, but I've heard many people talk about it, even the MS trial in Washington DC. Is Linux a serious threat to MS in the (far?) future? Because of all the above, I'd suggest that Apple/NeXT make NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP freely available and open the source code to developers. I do not see the future of Rapsody. Only open system has future. Even Sun is loosing its grip on Java. If I were Steve Jobs, I would: spin-off OPENSTEP division; make OPENSTEP, Yellow-box, Rapsody, etc free to user, just like Solaris; maintain OPENSTEP/YB standard and provide development support to software company; develop user application software; etc, etc. Of course, there are many ways Steve Jobs can make money even after opening OPENSTEP/YB. Just my two cents :-)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:21:53 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Message-ID: <stevehix-1901990921530001@192.168.1.10> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> Organization: Blackrock Systems In article <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>, holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote: > znu wrote: > > Because YellowBox apps written for OSX Server will work on OSX, and there > > Right. And monkeys might fly out of my butt. Doesn't that hurt?
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:09:27 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-1901991309270001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <77tvin$jah$2@208.236.239.25> <77umtn$1d7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <77umtn$1d7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > What hardware are you talking about? Are you talking about the ability to > accelerate graphics in hardware or color calibration or something else? PCs > are usually ahead in terms of 2D/3D graphics acceleration. When Apple > releases a new Mac, it often outperforms the fastest consumer PC system by a > small margin. A year or so later, Apple will be using the same graphics > hardware and PC hardware will be almost twice as fast. And linotype color calibration will still be buried in Windows 2000 somewhere in redmond Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:21:34 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-1901991321340001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <369e786d.0@news1.ibm.net> <macghod-1401992139400001@ts022d38.lap-ca.concentric.net> In article <macghod-1401992139400001@ts022d38.lap-ca.concentric.net>, macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > I will not say whether or not their days are over, but they have > unfortunately GIVEN UP this market. > Big companies WOULD NOT BUY MAC HARDWARE. Many big companies would gladly > pay $1000 for macos x server, but no way would they ditch their pc's, > macos x server would have to run on pc's. Thus Apple has no chance at > this market, no matter how good mac os x server is. They have given up on > this market since they have given up on macos x server for intel You are wrong. By this logic, Oracle will always be the Database king and we know that ain't so. They are still the top dog but competition is close behind. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:25:11 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <782ils$c8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77vttd$2ve$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7800ob$iua@news1.newsguy.com> In article <7800ob$iua@news1.newsguy.com>, lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) wrote: > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: >> Sort of. I have been accusing you and some other Linux advocates of falsely >> claiming Linux to be the dominant factor in the Open Source movement, and for >> denying credit to other Open Source projects. > > Sticking my nose into your little flamewar, I can only ask: > > What good do you expect out of accusing people? Amusement, mainly. Sometimes something more productive results, which is a bonus. But I can't honestly expect any more from any thread cross-posted between multiple .advocacy groups. > Maybe you should invest in some social skills. Oh, I do well enough with the people I'd care to socialize with. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "The Swedish Chef" <carej@rpi.edu> Newsgroups: alt.games.myth,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:21:47 -0500 Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Message-ID: <781fd1$o6i$1@newsfeeds.rpi.edu> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <flat-1101991902370001@pm6-89.orf.infi.net> <macghod-1801990152150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article <macghod-1801990152150001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> , macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > I think the problem may be this (and I am not a expert on this). > Mac people love the mac due to its ui. But to people like Carmack > (correct me if I am wrong) the ui isnt even part of the os. So the macos, > compared as a os, is looked upon by its bad features, can run unreal and > burn a cd at the same time, etc. > Furthermore, windows worse feature is it ui, and this is totally > overlooked, and is core is a bit better than macos, its a bit more stable, > a bit faster, does multitasking a bit better. People love MacOS (or Windows, or Linux for that matter) for their own reasons, one of which might be the UI. No one denies that MacOS has the superior UI. I don't think that Carmack thinks that the UI isn't *part* os the OS, it's just that it's a part of the OS that he won't use. Face it: a lot of the Mac API is aimed at creating & manipulating the UI. But the types of games that Id makes don't need (and really can't use) that standard system UI. I think Carmack's point was that there are more lower level facilities (in terms of what the OS provids) that are useful to him in Windows. This comes from the fact that Windows sits on top of DOS. I wouldn't say that the Windows core is "better than macos, its a bit more stable, a bit faster, does multitasking a bit better", it's just that there is more of what Carmack needs, as a low level programmer, provided in Windows. ============================ Jeffrey Care (carej@rpi.edu) RPI ECSE Class of 2001 http://www.rpi.edu/~carej/
From: Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:23:23 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 19:04:04 GMT For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers will probably only arrive after my membership expires. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:47:21 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-1901991547210001@wil104.dol.net> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > > This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). Higher than that in most places. > > PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. Actually, Apple reported that the price difference is around $80 on an iMac after accounting for taxes. It was reported on Macintouch yesterday, IIRC. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:12:50 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <782sg7$lj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <782ib9$4te@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de wrote: > Does anybody know why it takes so long to get MacOS X > (not server) to market? Do they rebuild everything? > For what reason? Well, the main changes from OSX Server to OSX are (i) adding the Carbon frameworks to allow enhanced use of legacy MacOS apps, and (ii) changing the display model from DPS to EQD. (i) was necessary to keep existing Mac developers on board, since they were reluctant to re-write all their apps. But making the changes necessary to make traditional MacOS apps work with a modern OS is not trivial. (ii) was necessary because Adobe is abandoning DPS. Also a non-trivial task. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5tJFG.Dtp@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jwhalen@inch.com Organization: needs one References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <info-1101991441100001@192.168.200.1> <_wvm2.3761$xq4.1018@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net> <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5MEnF.Hr8@T-FCN.Net> <jwhalen-180119992055132067@tc4-dial-193-142.oldslip.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:02:04 GMT In <jwhalen-180119992055132067@tc4-dial-193-142.oldslip.inch.com> Joshua Whalen wrote: > Try typing "B", and nothing else. In this case it was "bin". > This is why some of us Mac weenies are rather glad that Carbon will > provide a smooth transition to a YB based OS/API. There is nothing on > earth like Anarchie when it comes to file transfer. Agreed, although the engine itself leaves some to be desired. wget is a much better program than ftp in general, but has no interactive mode and thus I had to use ftp. Still they all exhibit the same sort of problem as a group that I can't explain. I've used ftp'ers on Macs, Windows, Unix etc., and in all the cases if the link gets a few errors the transfer tends to slow and then stop. Oddly simply opening another session will ofter start up the original download again. This is easy to see in Anarchy, often a stalled download can be re-started simply by double clicking the file again to start a new download, then closing it once it appears. Anyone know what does this? Maury
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: 19 Jan 1999 18:19:21 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Distribution: world Message-ID: <782ib9$4te@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Does anybody know why it takes so long to get MacOS X (not server) to market? Do they rebuild everything? For what reason? Yours, -- Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ @bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:15:13 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 19:04:03 GMT As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 19 Jan 1999 20:02:01 GMT Organization: The secret circle of the NSRC Message-ID: <782nb3$jgc@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <stevehix-1901990921530001@192.168.1.10> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve Hix wrote: > In article <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de>, > holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote: > > > znu wrote: > > > Because YellowBox apps written for OSX Server will work on OSX, and there > > > > Right. And monkeys might fly out of my butt. > > Doesn't that hurt? Not as much as reading these newsgroups.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:08:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <782on1$hrj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote: > znu wrote: > > Because YellowBox apps written for OSX Server will work on OSX, and there > > Right. And monkeys might fly out of my butt. I see no reason for such skepticism. There was a relatively smooth upgrade path between the various versions of NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP, on which OSXS is based. Going from OPENSTEP to OSXS was more of a jump, but most apps that ran on OPENSTEP seem to still be around, so it clearly was doable. Going to OSX, while non-trivial because of the loss of DPS, should be equally doable. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jrp59@gte.net (Ron Parsons) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:33:15 -0600 Organization: gte.net Message-ID: <782pmk$pbl$1@news-2.news.gte.net> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: >As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, >depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price >fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > >This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > >PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. Considering that in Europe, most items of brand name clothing are twice as expensive and consumer electronics up to ten times, it's not all that bad. However, it may not be totaly without taxes as there are likely high import duties. Ron
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:50:34 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial02p45.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36A4FE2A.591C8126@tone.ca> References: <782ib9$4te@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 21:49:45 GMT Ralf Suckow wrote: > Does anybody know why it takes so long to get MacOS X > (not server) to market? Do they rebuild everything? > For what reason? > > Yours, > -- > Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ > @bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine. Its not late yet. It was only announced in 1998 with a target of late 1999. Its basically a merging of MacOS with Rhapsody/Openstep which is non-trivial. It involves adding a subset of the Mac OS api's (carbon), finishing the job of putting on a Mac interface, replacing dps for screen imaging with enhaced quickdraw, .... Seems like a lot of work to me. I expect it to be late. Michael
From: Jason Taverner <taverner@cbs.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:06:16 -0500 Organization: I don't exist, so get off my back Message-ID: <36A501D8.2361B4EE@cbs.com> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <369d8763$0$16668@nntp1.ba.best.com> <36a0c424.586694682@199.217.9.201> <36A0F37E.7745898F@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Toon Moene wrote: > Larry D Bohan, Jr wrote: > > > VMS source *listings* have always been available, for about the > > price of DevStudio nowadays. they used to ship w/ the OS > > binaries (on microfiche) some years/releases ago. > > Oh, sure, if you didn't mind spoiling your eyes on the "fish tank" > (microfiche repository). > Now there's a "blue screen" of a different sort.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 19 Jan 1999 22:12:00 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Berlin, Deutschland Message-ID: <782vvg$iig$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 22:12:00 GMT Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl writes: >For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. >Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in >epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no >information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers >will probably only arrive after my membership expires. Then order your copy in the US. Marcel -- Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones. Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS. - Alan Kay -
From: "Greg Alexander" <galexand@ozemail.com.au> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:35:03 +1100 Organization: OzEmail Ltd. Message-ID: <7838es$8n0$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77vpgi$uo5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Stefano Pagiola (spagiola@my-dejanews.com) wrote: >Most of us are dismissing as moronic Apple's decision to sell OSX Server only >at a prohibitive price, and to not sell OSX Server/intel at all. I agree that a lower priced OSX would be great - but see the problem with MOSX vs MOSX Workstation. I reckon there'll be a MOSX Lite too. If they can sell MOSX server cheap to students or bundle it on certain machines they might be able to achieve the lower price point. I do think they should do _something_ to get on Intel. Say offering MOSX Server as an upgrade to licensed Openstep users (pay or free?) Or throwing MOSX Server/Intel on with the MOSX PPC CD for academics. At least then people would see it and use it. Complaints from Openstep users should be minimal (right?), complaints from academics - well it is officially unsupported. Greg
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 20 Jan 1999 00:19:32 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <7837ek$1vo$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <780jfq$84l$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <780okf$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 00:19:32 GMT Jonathan Hendry (jhendry@subsequent.com) wrote: > Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> wrote: > > Correct. There are lots of reasons to have POSIX, but the *really* big > > reason to have POSIX at all is to be able to sell to government > > installations and their subcontractors, which require it. Trouble is, you > > also need certification. > Has NT 4's lack of security certification hurt it? What does this have to do with the price of rice in Japan? POSIX certification has nothing to do with NSA security certification. Furthermore, the NSA certifies individual machine arrangements, not operating systems. Get yer facts straight! > I'd expect that if a government agency wants something, they can > often get it regardless of the regulations, if they get the right > signature. Wasn't all military development supposed to be done in > Ada? Most arrangements are: if a manager wants to use something non-certified, he has to show significant and immediate need. This makes things easy for NT: Microsoft's monopoly power helps a lot of justifications of significant and immediate need. Apple has no such luxury. Sean
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 20 Jan 1999 00:24:33 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <GOTo2.67$xJ1.15@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 00:24:33 GMT Michael Lankton (satan@hell.home.com) wrote: > FYI, Jobs wasn't fired, he was stripped of his title, but kept on. His pride > wouldn't allow him to stay in his reduced capacity, so he left, prematurely > selling off his Apple stocks in a rash move that would end up costing him > tens if not hundreds of millions. He was moved into a new office in a building all alone. The message doesn't get more clear than that. So if you don't like "fired", perhaps you might like "ousted". Or "pushed out". Or "shown the door". Sean
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: 19 Jan 1999 23:34:09 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <7834ph$76c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net> <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5MEnF.Hr8@T-FCN.Net> <jwhalen-180119992055132067@tc4-dial-193-142.oldslip.inch.com> <F5tJFG.Dtp@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: > In <jwhalen-180119992055132067@tc4-dial-193-142.oldslip.inch.com> Joshua > Whalen wrote: > > Try typing "B", and nothing else. > In this case it was "bin". Did you try typing 'help' inside of ftp? It'll list the commands available. Something similar is often available within interactive Unix programs.
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:57:45 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7839m4$13j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <782pmk$pbl$1@news-2.news.gte.net> In article <782pmk$pbl$1@news-2.news.gte.net>, jrp59@gte.net (Ron Parsons) wrote: > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > >As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > >depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > >fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > > > >This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > > > >PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. > > Considering that in Europe, most items of brand name clothing are twice as > expensive and consumer electronics up to ten times, it's not all that bad. Yes, computers in general aren't too badly priced in Europe compared to other goods, but Macs are more expensive. It means that there is more of a price gap between Macs and PCs in Europe. > However, it may not be totaly without taxes as there are likely high > import duties. Do they still manufacture systems in Cork Ireland? I doubt transport to the UK would add too much to the price if they are. Do they manufacture systems in other European countries? Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: 20 Jan 1999 01:17:02 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19990119201702.00802.00001223@ng-cg1.aol.com> Best computer, maybe, but what does that matter when the interface represents the lowest common denominator of coddling Mac users. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Early Edition Date: 20 Jan 1999 02:04:00 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-190119992004315120@84.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 I just discovered an incredibly cool bug in the new Internet Explorer for PPC. If you set your system clock a day ahead, and then log onto a news site, it gives you the next day's news, just like that "Early Edition" guy on TV. So, anyway, today I decided to really put it to the test, and I set my clock ahead to March 1st, 1999, and this is what I found on the MacOS Rumors site: DETAILS, DETAILS... We should apologize in advance for any typos or other rough edges in the rest of today's post. Not only were we caught off-guard by Apple's sudden earth-shaking assault on the enterprise market (see "New Beige iMacs!", above), but also there have been numerous developments on the question of the missing-in-action Mac OSX Server. The RUMORS staff has been very busy keeping up with a blizzard of 'semi-official' clarifications and press releases coming out of Cupertino. Even though these minor details are only of interest to a handful of our more geeky readers, we'll try to present the whole mess in some coherrent order: 1) Steve didn't say _which_ February. Or if he did, he didn't mean it. He meant _next_ February. 2) OSX Server will not run on _any_ hardware. Those plans have been permanently scuttled for the time being and placed on hold indefinitely for the foreseeable future pending further developments any day now. 3) OSX Server will ship initially as a large set of leatherbound books, similar to the old Encyclopedia Brittanica series (see "PR: OSX Server Goes Open Source!"). Apple has leased several vacant bindery plants in the rust belt and dilapidated tanneries in the Chicago stockyards to keep up with demand. Many workers will be transferred or cut from Bay area operations. According to one senior exec, "This also positions us much more strongly in the traditional content market -- we've pulled a MAJOR end-run on Microsoft!" 4) The cost of the OS will be $10,000, not $1,000 as previously reported. According to Fred Anderson, Apple's CFO, "It was just one of those misplaced decimal-point things. But hey, $10,000 is definitely commensurate with the price of equivalent leatherbound encyclopedias, considering that there are almost 300 volumes in the complete set." 5) Officials concede that a hardware port may eventually become necessary, to provide backward- compatibility with older applications which are not available in human-readable form. All that's needed, these sources say, is an AI-related technology called 'disambiguation', to deal with some of the OS's more advanced code. But in the meantime, officials stress, Apple has stumbled upon something far, far better than ordinary AI (see "PR: New MacOS Incorporates _True_ Intelligence!"). Users will be able to decide for themselves whether to jump to dangerous subroutines or allocate theoretical memory blocks, as they trace through the code. "This is a truly Millennial revoluiton in computing," said one high-placed source. "The user has complete control of _everything!_" Also note that the new OS supports unlimited concurrent threads, depending on how many users can gather around the reading table and trace out the algorithms (see "PR: Apple Brings Massive Parallel Processing to the Desktop!"). 6) A developer's edition is being considered, which will consist of volumes 1 through 3 on microfiche (the ASCII files have apparently been lost), at a substantially reduced price -- "in the 4-figure range". The kit also includes rope, duck tape, and a private tutor named Guido. LATE-BREAKING HORRAY! Good news! The new beige iMac seems to be having its intended effect on Apple's recently-slumping stock price. Today's stock rocketed up 13 cents, to close at $11.44 a share! Way to go Steve! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <36A53B64.2AAEFD79@psca.com> From: "Marc J. Driftmeyer" <mdrift@psca.com> Organization: Platinum Technologies Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:16:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:16:21 EDT What an interesting read this thread has provided, I believe a more noteworthy debate thread would be first to define which Enterprise Customer market space has the most growth potential. From here then see what opportunities Apple and the rest of the competition have at dividing up the market share. The market of interest and most importance is of course, the Web, and its many public and private implementations. Since this is virtually a 2.5 tier market space with a WebBrowser being the Workspace of choice Enterprises know (or should by now understand) that the thin-client is the least of there concerns ( i.e. should they invest in MacOS future, Windows 2k future, Linux, etc.,.). The backend is the key. Having a rock-solid, high performance Server OS housing an rock solid Web Server to vend to all those "gui dumb terminals" is where enterprise investment dollars must be spent first. True productivity applications (e.g. Microsoft Office) are a must for the Client and both avenues are satisified in the debate of Wintel versus MacOS. Far fewer employees continue to need the full office Suite functionality to do their jobs. The tool most used by anyone to generate documentation is a Word Processor. Spreadsheets have a far less impact with one's daily routine when compared to the time spent on replying to daily email messages. Since there is a plethora of emailers in the world it would seem that is not an area that makes one OS superior to another OS. Agreed upon I would surmise is the importance of being able to have File Sharing and Printing Services transparent within any organization. For sake of File Sharing and Network Printing, AppleShare IP is a great solution. Since this is going to be integrated within MacOS X Server, I can only assume like everything else it will be a subset of NetInfo. The new Netboot is another example of functionality that is a subset of NetInfo. For those of you not familiar with NetInfo let me just say to those who are, it is way more easy to use and understand than in the past and they have just extended its functionality and ability to communicate across mixed network environments. Having native support for NIS, NFS, AppleShare IP, Netboot, Netware,(Filesystem support of most consumers HFS/HFS +, Fat32, Fat16, Fat (whatever) ) and Samba (to mount NTFS drives for instance) to name just a few parts of the BSD4.4 & NetInfo Tag Team, it is very rudimentary for a Corporation to purchase a single PowerMac G3 Pro Server running MacOS X Server and have it handle all UNIX, PC, Netware and of course, MacOS Filesharing, Printing, Mail Serving and WebServer deployment of both External and Internal Corporate Websites at a fraction of the cost of any product offered by Sun, HP, IBM, Microsoft, Novell or anyone else one feels is a contender for this position. Now logically one would not purchase a single machine. One would with the design of one's desired Network as a blueprint determine where best served this hardware and new OS would be deployed. Since MacOS X Server includes YellowBox for Mach (ProjectBuilder, InterfaceBuilder, etc) and WebObjects 4.0 (WebObjectsBuilder, and deployment out of the box double that of WOF4.0 for NT) and EOF3.0 that is interoperable between Web-based apps and there traditional Client-Server cousins for $999 you would think people would realize what a steal this product is. It makes no sense for Apple to have this all-in-one solution alone when MacOS X is ready and I know they know this, but it does make sense in order to give consumers and developers time to integrate and develop solutions based upon MacOS X Server into there existing and new client sites. One side note for Unix lovers everywhere is there is practically no utility, including the apache webserver that is not a Project Builder project for any company to modify to there hearts delight and just recompile and make it available to be used wherever they see fit. Now what people seem to have overlooked is that MacOS X Server is basically a rock solid OS that is definitely ahead of its time already, but to its creators it is just an adolescent and when the Adult version arrives in two forms so far, MacOS X and MacOS X Server (version # whatever) it will have a completely finished GUI compliant to Look and Feel/Form and Function that feedback by customers who purchased MacOS X Server in february will request and a host of modifications that Apple has planned to roll-in in time for the official Fall release of MacOS X. What is obviously missing but will be included and turned on for primetime is SMP and Real-Time data processing within the Mach microkernel. Now think a moment on this, why would this be such a big deal for current PowerMac PPC hardware? It is not. Oh I am sure people in the Multimedia and Prepress, etc. realms of Apples marketspaces are saying, "hell yes it is a big deal" and I agree, but not nearly as big of a deal as when the new server hardware still being worked on hits the market and directly competes with the offerings of Multi-CPU monsters offered by Intel, Sun, IBM, HP, Compaq, etc. and not only outperforms them but crushes them on a price/performance scale, then the Enterprise will be extremely hardpressed to ignore Apple. But until such time to say Apple is dead in the Corporate space is ill-advised and simply put, naive. Microsoft is correct when they say they cannot just live of there reputation of a week prior in order to stay on top. A week in this business can seem like an eternity. Another good point about MacOS X Server is it being Y2k compliant- a big deal, especially to the Government to name but one potential client. Right now I am sure an multitude of Wintel derived systems are not making Business owners happy. A hack is just that, a hack. Solutions come and solutions go, it is one's duty to stand by what one considers the best solution for the given task. There is no single solution that exists that is best suited for all client demands. I believe Apple understands this and that is why there Development Tools are deployable on Windows NT, HP-UX, Solaris 2.x and now MacOS X Server. As a developer that is the real power of the Enterprise. The ability to develop solutions that just work on a variety of platforms is a huge win for Apple and its Partners. I must applaud the team of Engineers and Marketing leaders within the Apple Enterprise Software organization for there latest effort, WebObjects 4.0-this is an Ecommerce developer's paradise, and though not "perfect" (nothing ever being perfect) it sure is a damn good distance along the road to perfection. This is the only post I will make on Apple's future OS. It would seem to me that the amount of energy spent on this (including my own energy)and similar discussions is futile. If one is a supporter of Apple and wants to constructively criticize something about Apple's business model, send them a note. They have several channels to process such concerns. Otherwise, why not use this newsgroup to discuss Advocacy issues of Third Party's by informing users of solutions they could take advantage of and are just not aware of and one final note. I personally do not know of one Home Consumer who knows what the hell Linux or any other Unix based OS is in this world and to them the world is either MacOS or Windows. So since MacOS is starting to get a smidgen of its marketshare back and that is due to the iMac, and great marketing, much improved price points, the folks at Apple must be headed in the right direction. Remember it did take Microsoft around 8 years to be so dominate. The key difference between Steve and Bill is simple. Steve sees Computers as an avenue to simplify your life and provide one with the means of accomplishing one's work more quickly to then go and live your independent life. Bill sees Computers as intricately necessary and interwoven in all daily activities so no matter what you do in life you have an dependent life- a life dependent upon computers. I for one enjoy the luxury and simplicity of the independent life. Sincerely Yours, -- Marc J. Driftmeyer Consultant Platinum Technologies Inc. marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com "I DO NOT SPEAK FOR ANYONE AT PLATINUM AND ALL MY OPINIONS ARE JUST THAT OPINIONS BASED UPON MY SUBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW" "Edwin E. Thorne" wrote: > Steve Sullivan <macghod@concentric.net> wrote: > > > In article > > <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net>, > > leperkuhn@earthlink.net (Jonathan Haddad) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lots of big companies, simply will not buy apple hardware at this point. > > > > Due to how their budgets are arranged tho, they ARE able to justify > > > > spending $1000 for macos software > > > > > > The problem is that Apple makes their money mostly from Hardware. Running > > > MacOS X on an Intel Platform would probably have a negitive effect. Less > > > apple comps sold. the fact is the public doesn't know the difference in > > > hardware and they mostly dont care. Its a shame really. its probably a > > > good move to not do OS X for intel. > > > > That is sooooo incredibly short sited and lame > > Yes, that describes your remarks below. > > > RIGHT NOW big companies absolutely cannot buy apple hardware... > > Why not? > > > BUT, it they bought os server for intel, in the future it could change the > > mind of management, who would be swayed to buy APPLE HARDWARE as well. > > Why should they be swayed to buy Apple hardware if the software runs on > the PC hardware that they have already? > > > This market is not going to buy apple hardware now, NONE, not only would > > Sure it is. > > > os x server for intel get apple a sell now (with Apple adding how much a > > hardware sale would get them, over and above what the mac version would > > cost) but in the future it could convert a whole bunch of business to > > apple hardware as well. > > No, great Apple software on great Apple hardware will convert business > to Apple hardware. To hell with Intel hardware. > > > Saying its a good move not to do intel is just incredibly ignorant. > > Spoken as a true Wintroll. Why don't you buy a PC, since you think it's > such a good idea to have Intel hardware? Sell your Mac to someone who > will appreciate it. > > -- > Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 19 Jan 99 19:00:04 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2CA86BD-3C523@206.165.43.37> References: <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> said: >Michael Lankton (satan@hell.home.com) wrote: > >> FYI, Jobs wasn't fired, he was stripped of his title, but kept on. His pride >> wouldn't allow him to stay in his reduced capacity, so he left, >prematurely >> selling off his Apple stocks in a rash move that would end up costing him >> tens if not hundreds of millions. > >He was moved into a new office in a building all alone. The message >doesn't get more clear than that. So if you don't like "fired", perhaps >you might like "ousted". Or "pushed out". Or "shown the door". > >Sean > Who told you that it was in a building all by himself? What is that supposed to mean? That they had a totally unused building that they set aside for just him? Where did you hear this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: genny@ccms.net (Gennica Hamilton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Message-ID: <genny-1901992138080001@ppp75.ccms.net> References: <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <B2CA86BD-3C523@206.165.43.37> Organization: ......./........ NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:38:12 EDT Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:38:08 -0600 > > Who told you that it was in a building all by himself? What is that > supposed to mean? That they had a totally unused building that they set > aside for just him? > > Where did you hear this? It's in some of the books... he was going to "take over" Brandley 4 after the Macintosh didn't take off as planned... he wanted to take some of the Macintosh managers with him, and start something called AppleLabs... Sculley caught wind of this, and sucessfully removed him from the organizational chart... (a common apple practice)... at that point steve wandered away and fell into his "black period"... until he came back 18 months ago...
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 20 Jan 1999 04:32:39 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <783m97$kea@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <780jfq$84l$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <780okf$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <7837ek$1vo$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> wrote: > Jonathan Hendry (jhendry@subsequent.com) wrote: > > Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> wrote: > > > Correct. There are lots of reasons to have POSIX, but the *really* big > > > reason to have POSIX at all is to be able to sell to government > > > installations and their subcontractors, which require it. Trouble is, you > > > also need certification. > > Has NT 4's lack of security certification hurt it? > What does this have to do with the price of rice in Japan? POSIX > certification has nothing to do with NSA security certification. > Furthermore, the NSA certifies individual machine arrangements, not > operating systems. Get yer facts straight! Er, yeah I know they're not directly related. However, I'd expect some government agencies to 'require' this level of security. MS continued marketing the security certification to feds, even after it was no longer valid. (While certification does indeed apply to a particular machine configuration, I'd suspect that the OS would determine whether certification is at all possible. I could be wrong.) > > I'd expect that if a government agency wants something, they can > > often get it regardless of the regulations, if they get the right > > signature. Wasn't all military development supposed to be done in > > Ada? > Most arrangements are: if a manager wants to use something non-certified, > he has to show significant and immediate need. This makes things easy for > NT: Microsoft's monopoly power helps a lot of justifications of > significant and immediate need. Apple has no such luxury. I don't think Microsoft's monopoly power helps in that case, but their mindshare helps immensely at selling NT to the dunderheads at the top. I doubt they have to worry whether their guided missile cruiser control systems (or whatever) can run Office. Anyway, back to more productive things: Could an ISV create a Posix-compliant layer for OS/Xen, have it certified, and make a killing selling Posix OS/X to the gubmint?
From: telam@iquest.net (Tom Elam) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:41:08 GMT Organization: HUH? Message-ID: <36a55cab.189050710@news.newsguy.com> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:15:13 GMT, Tom Elam wrote the following word of wisdom to Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl >As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, >depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price >fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > >This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > >PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. Chalk this one up to mostly the high social cost of European employees. Retail stores in Europe need considerably higher margins to cover the costs of doing business in a cradle-to-grave system that results in costs per employee that are up to twice that of the U.S. Add in the horrible taxes on everything from fuel to real property and Europe is just plain an expensive place to do business. I know - my company does about 20% of it's global business in Europe. Despite the fact that our prices are higher than the U.S., our profit margins are considerably lower due to higher administrative and operating expenses. The Netherlands is a bit better than Germany or France on this score, but even there the costs are very high compared to the U.S. --------------------------------------------- Tom Elam Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. A. Einstein The new and much-improved and newly updated family homepage is at: http://members.iquest.net/~telam/default.htm
Message-ID: <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:06:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:06:56 PDT Michael Lankton wrote: > In <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> Rex Riley wrote:- > > to wit: such hyperpole is perfect example of why $1000 separates dreamers > from > > the doers.- > > I disagree. It was this lack of understanding the market that killed NeXT in > the first place. Michael, Michael...NeXT never got killed. They survived. Are you referring to price? 1990's? You're absolutely correct, btw NeXT pricing was designed to not capture the low-end crowd. As a matter of fact, the NeXTcube was priced at the very top-end. The cube presented in early 1989 to academia was then paraded infront of 3 letter gov't agencies. Early successes blinded NeXT to the market realities of competing on price point .vs. technologies. While NeXT technologies in those early systems, DSP, DPS, O-O, Mach, etc... are just reaching the consuming public, NeXT thought technology uptake would be vertical liftoff for NeXT Inc. O-O proved a steeper learning curve than the average functional programmer could grok, DSP was a 3letter.gov favorite complete with export restrictions(software anyway) and Mach was overtaken by a WINDOWS technology story. Technology was not a driver of success for the NeXT platform, as planned. Intel is more responsible for breathing life into DOS/Windows code. Code that NeXT otherwise thought they could steamroll on their way into the corporation. SJ as much admitted the under-estimation of Intel/industry when NeXT adopted Intel architecture in 1993. Deficiencies in the PC subsystems to handle graphics for DPS were quickly ramped up-to-speed on the Intel platform. By the time, mid-90's, NeXT sold an Intel solution, selling the OS for $100ea. would only have sealed the fate of an extraordinary product. Mid-90's NeXT had all it could do to keep up with driver requirments, corporate mentoring and rebuilding its business after losing hardware, and Morgan Stanley account on Wall Street. NeXT simply could not have fielded a team to meet the needs of a low-end adopter of the OS. They had their hands full protecting the OS product. It was not price in the first place that killed NeXT. It was not a lack of understanding what the market needed in the first place. To wit: multi-threaded architectures, Object oriented software development, protected memory, etc... survive/relevent to the success of the market 10yrs after NeXT introduced their products. It was not a lack of understanding .edu which was NeXT's primary focus intitially. It was that the doers at NeXT didn't want to limit the realm of possibilities restrict future potentialities. NeXT simply wanted to lead the way to the next step in computing... They didn't understand that the software market wanted to stand still (ie stand ardize) on their investments. It looks like NeXT boys have learned their lesson the second time around. No Intel, No HP, No Solaris, No NeXTSTEP, No Obj-C, etc... they seem to be cleaning up their plate for consumer consumption. And yes, eventually, I think all the dreamers will get their fix at $100/copy with all the buzzword hype that turns them on with it. -r
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy Message-ID: <76s8vs$n0c$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> References: <76lp6n$64@news1.panix.com> <915370129snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@localhost Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:01:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:01:48 EET DST In article <76ok3f$agj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <jim9@postmaster.co.uk> wrote: >I would like to know how the 10 million users figure is reached. I know a few >people who bought Linux CDs to try it because it is so cheap, then deleted it >and forgot about it after a week or two. Are they being counted? But there are also people who buy a CD and then pass it around to several friends. Somewhere at redhat.com, they've got a white paper that discusses how they came up with their estimate of 7 million several months ago. --Tim Smith
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:44:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:44:44 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> Rex Riley wrote:-- > It was not price in the first place that killed NeXT. It certainly didn't help, and was the biggest reason that Sun ate NeXT alive on campuses nationwide. > It was not a lack of > understanding what the market needed in the first place. To wit: multi-threaded > architectures, Object oriented software development, protected memory, etc... > survive/relevent to the success of the market 10yrs after NeXT introduced their > products. You don't have to sell me, I love OPENSTEP. I never got to use a NeXT machine, and only this last year did I get a copy for my box at home. I am a long time unix user who migrated late to OPENSTEP. I was always at ease at the console, rarely using Xwindows, and then only for Netscape or something equally trivial. The NeXT gui is the first gui environment I have ever used that I have preferred to the command line. There simply isn't any way to really communicate just why it feels so natural and is more comfortable than other guis, other than to quote Jobs (who I'm no fan of btw) by saying: "...it just works." :P From what I've managed to gather from what I've read, many are responsible, but there is a whole lot of Bud Tribble in the interface, so thanks Bud. I was heart broken when I saw what Apple had done to the user interface. > It was not a lack of understanding .edu which was NeXT's primary focus > intitially. Well sort of. They made promises they couldn't keep (and not just to edu). NeXT couldn't deliver product on time or for the promised price point. As good looking as NeXT hardware was, it was under powered and over priced in equal measures. The cube shipped without a finished os for christ's sake. NeXT sold hardware at least in one instance based upon technology that wasn't finished yet (the compression chip for graphics manipulation). When the party responsible for the chips couldn't deliver as promised, NeXT made absolutely no concessions at all to the people who had purchased machines on the promise of soon to be available technology that never showed. The history of NeXT computer is a litany of mismanagement and failure to deliver product on time and as advertised. Despite this, the operating system is absolutely brilliant, but not many people ever got the chance to find out; NeXT/OPENSTEP never made it to enough desktops to become mass market. The really amazing things about the whole NeXT debacle were that a) Businessland actually thought they could sell $20000 personal computers and b) Perot was so starstruck he kept dumping money into NeXT. It's understandable why Canon kept dumping money into NeXT, they were trying to salvage an investment that was hemorraging funds by applying more capital to the wounds in an effort to see at least some return on their investment. > It was that the doers at NeXT didn't want to limit the realm of possibilities > restrict future potentialities. NeXT simply wanted to lead the way to the next > step in computing... Well then, they were too ambitious for a little start-up then. NeXT didn't have the resources of a Microsoft or a Sun. They should have gone head to head with Apple, won that war, then gotten ambitious. History shows that Jobs learned nothing from his previous mistakes at Apple. It seems he was determined to repeat the failure of the Lisa. I'm surprised he hasn't managed to put Apple out of their misery already since his return ;)
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: 20 Jan 1999 07:02:09 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7aavrh.o66.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 07:02:09 GMT On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:44:44 GMT, Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: :Well then, they were too ambitious for a little start-up then. NeXT didn't :have the resources of a Microsoft or a Sun. They should have gone head to :head with Apple, won that war, then gotten ambitious. History shows that :Jobs learned nothing from his previous mistakes at Apple. It seems he was :determined to repeat the failure of the Lisa. He was forced as a result of the legal agreements surrounding his ''departure'' from Apple to make machines which did not compete in any of Apple's markets. The source of this was the Apple that he left behind. :I'm surprised he hasn't managed to put Apple out of their misery already :since his return ;) -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:56:12 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36A57E0C.EC5EFC2E@exu.ericsson.se> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <780jfq$84l$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <780okf$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <7837ek$1vo$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <783m97$kea@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan Hendry wrote: [cut] > Could an ISV create a Posix-compliant layer for OS/Xen, have it > certified, and make a killing selling Posix OS/X to the gubmint? There's a company that's just recently announced its intention to do this with NT, but I don't remember the name (it was around 2 months ago). Microsoft is a major stockholder in the company; they're delivering not only POSIX, but X Windows and a large number of other enhancements designed to make Windows NT more "like Unix". Enterix? I don't know why that name came to mind... MJP
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Date: 20 Jan 1999 07:39:22 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7ab219.o66.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77un0c$5if$2@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 07:39:22 GMT On 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote: : :That's the thing that puzzles me the most about Apple killing off OSXS on x86. :Most of those folks are running NT on x86 to serve Mac clients. OSXS/Intel :sales would replace more NT servers in that market than steal seats from Macs :running MacOS. I'm only guessing that it's driver support. Many people will try to load OSXS/Intel on their PC which currently runs NT or Linux, fail or get weird hardware problems, and then complain vehemently, and dismiss it as "Apple really is doomed if they expect me to use this piece of crap. I gave them my shot. Last time I'll be fooled by them." This might screw up the chance of selling a G3 server later. How well would Sun do if their first introduced product was Solaris x86, in contrast to their completed lineup of hardware. Even now, four or five years down the line Solaris x86 is not significant. Even Linux still gets knocked on because it doesn't support all the latest hardware, and that's despite an astonishing and heroic job by many driver programmers worldwide. It makes much more sense for Apple to make Intel-based PC's which are designed to work right with OSX. But then, what would their advantage be be over the G3? A native-speed version of Virtual PC? It would be nice if such a thing existed, but I haven't heard of it being there. The disadvantage would be bad PR to the effect of "Apple is capitulating, it's only a matter of time before they give up MacOS and go Wintel like the rest of the sane world." -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: "Henk Kampman" <henk.kampman@neuronsys.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:48:31 +0100 Organization: Neuron Data Systems Message-ID: <78458u$cln$1@news.telekabel.nl> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <782vvg$iig$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 08:48:30 GMT ---------- In article <782vvg$iig$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote: >>For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. > >>Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in >>epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no >>information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers >>will probably only arrive after my membership expires. > > Then order your copy in the US. > > Marcel That would be nice, however all major mailorder companies I've checked are not allowed to export Apple products. Henk
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: 20 Jan 1999 09:05:01 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Distribution: world Message-ID: <78467t$p54@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> References: <36a55cab.189050710@news.newsguy.com> Tom Elam writes > Chalk this one up to mostly the high social cost of European employees. Retail > stores in Europe need considerably higher margins to cover the costs of doing > business in a cradle-to-grave system that results in costs per employee that > are up to twice that of the U.S. Add in the horrible taxes on everything from > fuel to real property and Europe is just plain an expensive place to do > business. I know - my company does about 20% of it's global business in > Europe. Despite the fact that our prices are higher than the U.S., our profit > margins are considerably lower due to higher administrative and operating > expenses. The Netherlands is a bit better than Germany or France on this > score, but even there the costs are very high compared to the U.S. > While all this is probably true, and prices are high in europe for the average products, this does not have impact on computer prices (PCs). I had the chance to directly compare the retail prices two years ago in the Washington DC. area and in Berlin, and they were a bit lower in Berlin. And you have to take into account that most of the Hardware sold here is built in asia, so it's not a general import/local production issue. On the other hand, apple computers have a much weaker position here than in america, so the price relation to PCs needs to be better than in the USA to gain marketshare, not worse as it is today. From the trouble with apple germany, as reported by c't lately, I've got the impression that it is more a problem of the weak performance of the german (and may be european) apple divisions. I don't see anything of the american iMac boom here. Not even a single TV ad. The only reason why I know that iMac exists is reading c.s.n.a and c't (not exactly an average consumer journal). Yours, -- Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ @bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan19095254@slave.doubleu.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-reply-to: spagiola@my-dejanews.com's message of Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:04:42 GMT Date: 19 Jan 99 09:52:54 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:59:50 PDT In article <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: > Actually I think the main issue is that, when OS X ships, it may > be difficult to sell a workstation version of OSX Server. There > may be too much overlap, and the Workstation product could end up > without enough of a market. If it's only got six months of > viability, why bother? When OSX itself ships, it would effectively be OSXS Workstation 2.0, so of course "1.0" would be discontinued. Right there you've stated _my_ objection to a "MacOS X Workstation" version. For all that they've stated where the superstructure will be, MacOS X is still in quite a bit of flux. MacOS X may have some pretty significant differences from "MacOS X Server--". I don't think there are many really good reasons why Apple should have two substantially identical interim releases of their future operating system out there. One should suffice to get the feedback they need to work into the final release, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan19094720@slave.doubleu.com> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> <36a0b7c3.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <77un0c$5if$4@news.panix.com> <36a354da.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <780p2j$6gp$2@news.panix.com> In-reply-to: sal@panix.com's message of 19 Jan 1999 02:01:56 GMT Date: 19 Jan 99 09:47:20 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:59:49 PDT In article <780p2j$6gp$2@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) writes: I am not going to defend the use of Java for tasks where it is not the right tool to use anymore than I would defend the use of Perl for tasks where it is not the right tool to use. Nor would I ever advocate that any one language, library or OS could be all things to all users; that is just silly. But the truth of the matter is that this last describes almost exactly how most OS and hardware vendors work. There's not a continuous spectrum of languages or systems designed to accomodate a variety of users. Within Microsoft, you use C++ until the point it becomes so painful that you want to die, then you use Visual Basic (and maybe wish you were dead). I'm not arguing that you're wrong. I'm arguing that companies like Apple aren't listening to your common-sense points :-), -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Message-ID: <36A5AD78.AB2D3BAA@nstar.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:18:32 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77un0c$5if$2@news.panix.com> <slrn7ab219.o66.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt Kennel wrote: [cut] > Even Linux still gets knocked on because it doesn't support all the > latest hardware, and that's despite an astonishing and heroic job by > many driver programmers worldwide. Maybe I have a misperception of the situation, but it seems to me that it's more like an astonishing and incredibly heroic job by a very small number of driver programmers worldwide, with lots of effort (collectively) by a larger number of people who write just one or two drivers each. The last thing I want to do is detract from the effort poured into drivers by thousands of testers, users, and even authors, but if you look at the network driver situation, for instance, you've got Donald Becker Paul Gortmacher Alan Cox These three people have written a *ton* of Linux network drivers. Moreover, most other drivers are based on code written by these three. Video drivers, etc. face much the same situation. > It makes much more sense for Apple to make Intel-based PC's which are > designed to work right with OSX. But then, what would their advantage be > be over the G3? A native-speed version of Virtual PC? It would be nice > if such a thing existed, but I haven't heard of it being there. > > The disadvantage would be bad PR to the effect of "Apple is > capitulating, it's only a matter of time before they give up MacOS and > go Wintel like the rest of the sane world." Why wouldn't Apple benefit from an "astonishing and heroic job by many driver programmers worldwide" with OS X Server on a platform besides the Macintosh? Has anyone else read the painful updates from Alan Cox regarding his work on MacLinux? It gives me the impression that people are just plain turned off toward situations like that, where a single company built hardware in a completely insane and unpredictable way. It's ironic, you're saying "Apple can succeed on Mac hardware, only vast volunteer effort made Linux drivers successful", but it seems to me that Apple *could* use volunteers but is doing its very best to prevent that, from crazy hardware to inexplicable software strategies. I couldn't write a hardware driver to save my life. It leaves me in awe of people who can, and I believe that they would go the distance if Apple would just meet them halfway (or even less). MJP
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:53:12 +0000 From: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Message-ID: <christian.bau-2001991053120001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> Organization: Insignia Solutions Cache-Post-Path: proxy0.isltd.insignia.com!unknown@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > > This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > > PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. And why then is the British Government starting to investigate against the largest PC dealers for keeping prices artificially high?
From: David Griffiths <dgriff@hursley.ibm.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:51:36 +0000 Organization: Primitive Software Ltd. Message-ID: <36A5C348.34177E85@hursley.ibm.com> References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Lankton wrote: > Well then, they were too ambitious for a little start-up then. NeXT didn't > have the resources of a Microsoft or a Sun. They should have released the NeXTStep source code under license the same way that Sun did with Java. It wasn't resources that got Java where it is today, it was the huge adoption by the developer community (which completely took Sun by surprise). (Although the dependence of NeXTStep on DPS would have been a big hurdle to overcome). Dave
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:17:30 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> References: <782ib9$4te@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <782sg7$lj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <782sg7$lj1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de wrote: > > Does anybody know why it takes so long to get MacOS X > > (not server) to market? Do they rebuild everything? > > For what reason? > > Well, the main changes from OSX Server to OSX are (i) adding the Carbon > frameworks to allow enhanced use of legacy MacOS apps, and (ii) changing the > display model from DPS to EQD. I believe there are also rumors about making the Blue Box transparent to the user. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:19:24 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2001990819240001@wil124.dol.net> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77un0c$5if$2@news.panix.com> <slrn7ab219.o66.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> In article <slrn7ab219.o66.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com wrote: > On 18 Jan 1999 07:14:20 GMT, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote: > : > :That's the thing that puzzles me the most about Apple killing off OSXS on x86. > :Most of those folks are running NT on x86 to serve Mac clients. OSXS/Intel > :sales would replace more NT servers in that market than steal seats from Macs > :running MacOS. > > I'm only guessing that it's driver support. > > Many people will try to load OSXS/Intel on their PC which currently > runs NT or Linux, fail or get weird hardware problems, and then > complain vehemently, and dismiss it as "Apple really is doomed if they > expect me to use this piece of crap. I gave them my shot. Last time > I'll be fooled by them." > > This might screw up the chance of selling a G3 server later. > > How well would Sun do if their first introduced product was Solaris x86, > in contrast to their completed lineup of hardware. > > Even now, four or five years down the line Solaris x86 is not significant. > > Even Linux still gets knocked on because it doesn't support all the > latest hardware, and that's despite an astonishing and heroic job by > many driver programmers worldwide. > > It makes much more sense for Apple to make Intel-based PC's which are > designed to work right with OSX. But then, what would their advantage be > be over the G3? A native-speed version of Virtual PC? It would be nice > if such a thing existed, but I haven't heard of it being there. > > The disadvantage would be bad PR to the effect of "Apple is > capitulating, it's only a matter of time before they give up MacOS and > go Wintel like the rest of the sane world." All true. What I would have liked to see was Apple having someone make PCs on an OEM basis that use hardware supported by Rhapsody. That way, Apple could sell hardware that ran Rhapsody, but not sell the OS as a standalone product (at least not initially). There are probably a number of people who would buy such hardware (knowning Apple's reputation for quality) to run Rhapsody if they knew they could reformat it and run other PC OSs if they didn't like it. Just speculation, though. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 20 Jan 1999 13:41:29 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Berlin, Deutschland Message-ID: <784me9$hb8$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <782vvg$iig$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <78458u$cln$1@news.telekabel.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 13:41:29 GMT [ordering MacOS-X-Server in the US from europe] >That would be nice, however all major mailorder companies I've checked are >not allowed to export Apple products. Funky. I got my copy of OPENSTEP 4.2 from Apple/USA because the german distributors weren't able to sell it to me in time. Marcel -- Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones. Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS. - Alan Kay -
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:07:10 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <784nu7$78i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan19095254@slave.doubleu.com> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > When OSX itself ships, it would effectively be OSXS Workstation > 2.0, so of course "1.0" would be discontinued. > > Right there you've stated _my_ objection to a "MacOS X Workstation" > version. For all that they've stated where the superstructure will > be, MacOS X is still in quite a bit of flux. MacOS X may have some > pretty significant differences from "MacOS X Server--". I don't think > there are many really good reasons why Apple should have two > substantially identical interim releases of their future operating > system out there. One should suffice to get the feedback they need to > work into the final release, Indeed, one should suffice. But it will only suffice if a sufficiently large number of people use it, and use it in a variety of ways. The announced pricing of OSX Server means that very few people will use it, and that they'll largely use it as a server (for which use the announced price is very good value). The end-user aspects that will be central to OSX itself will hardly get any kind of workout. By offering the exact same release (minus the licences to enable WebObjects etc) at a "workstation" price, they would get substantially more, and substantially more useful feedback, as would developers with YB apps. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Message-ID: <jpolaski-2001991003560001@d147-54.ce.mediaone.net> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> Organization: Polaski P/D/C, 15 W. Hubbard, Chgo, IL Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:03:56 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:00:22 CDT In article <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. > > Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in > epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no > information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers > will probably only arrive after my membership expires. ======= If I'm not mistaken, Apple's european releases always have followed the US ones for the most part.
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:02:02 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Message-ID: <stevehix-2001990902030001@192.168.1.10> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <jpolaski-2001991003560001@d147-54.ce.mediaone.net> Organization: Blackrock Systems In article <jpolaski-2001991003560001@d147-54.ce.mediaone.net>, jpolaski@wwa.com (Jim Polaski) wrote: > In article <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > > For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. > > > > Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in > > epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no > > information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers > > will probably only arrive after my membership expires. > ======= > If I'm not mistaken, Apple's european releases always have followed the US > ones for the most part. Sun's usually the same. For starters, localization (translation) processes take more time...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F5vCut.KAG@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jhendry@subsequent.com Organization: needs one References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <%hym2.8134$XY6.171328@news.san.rr.com> <grym2.3813$xq4.1015@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <8bzm2.8147$XY6.172423@news.san.rr.com> <otzm2.3824$xq4.960@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <77g7ot$f1j$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IILK.LMo@T-FCN.Net> <77jitp$t05$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5K9s6.347@T-FCN.Net> <77ma0d$6am$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5MEnF.Hr8@T-FCN.Net> <jwhalen-180119992055132067@tc4-dial-193-142.oldslip.inch.com> <F5tJFG.Dtp@T-FCN.Net> <7834ph$76c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:35:15 GMT In <7834ph$76c@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Jonathan Hendry wrote: > Did you try typing 'help' inside of ftp? It'll list the commands available. Yes. But that's not the problem, I must have seen the proper command 10 times, but I didn't know that it was the proper command. I was looking at MODE because that makes perfect sense to me. And although the documents referred to _binary_mode_ several times, nowhere did they mention the command used to change it to that mode, so of course I assumed it was MODE. Maury
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 20 Jan 1999 18:56:37 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7ac9n4.r9k.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan19095254@slave.doubleu.com> <784nu7$78i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 18:56:37 GMT : :Indeed, one should suffice. But it will only suffice if a sufficiently large :number of people use it, and use it in a variety of ways. The announced :pricing of OSX Server means that very few people will use it, and that :they'll largely use it as a server (for which use the announced price is very :good value). The end-user aspects that will be central to OSX itself will :hardly get any kind of workout. By offering the exact same release (minus the :licences to enable WebObjects etc) at a "workstation" price, they would get :substantially more, and substantially more useful feedback, as would :developers with YB apps. MacOSX Server is used literally as a server. "MacOSX Interim-Development-Workstation" would be used as one of two things: 1) A command-line Unix box with access to MacOS GUI programs. {e.g. research scientists} 2) Reliable development tool, for either Yellow Box or MacOS. (A MacOS crash crashes the BlueBox, not the whole machine). I do supsect that the YB API's will change somewhat by MacOS X. One obvious place is the integration of Quicktime with real OO programming. How does it work, right now, in MacOSX Server? If Quicktime is only accessable via the MacOS 'world' then that's a major flaw. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 20 Jan 1999 21:11:20 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <785gpo$ogf$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <B2CA86BD-3C523@206.165.43.37> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 21:11:20 GMT Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote: > Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> said: > Who told you that it was in a building all by himself? What is that > supposed to mean? That they had a totally unused building that they set > aside for just him? Yep. > Where did you hear this? Carlton, among others. It's quite a famous story. Sean
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OSXS questions Date: 20 Jan 1999 21:23:49 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <785hh5$ogf$2@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <3693CEB7.177@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <msheets-080119990050069542@pm30a-ppp30.wwisp.com> <775lrr$spk@news1.panix.com> <77c17f$pje$1@news.digifix.com> <77emje$7s$1@news.panix.com> <eviltofu-1401991249390001@viking203-11.dhcp.csuohio.edu> <77oqs0$dk3$1@news.panix.com> <77tkam$5b4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <780jfq$84l$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <780okf$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <7837ek$1vo$3@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <783m97$kea@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 1999 21:23:49 GMT Jonathan Hendry (jhendry@subsequent.com) wrote: > Sean wrote: > > Most arrangements are: if a manager wants to use something non-certified, > > he has to show significant and immediate need. This makes things easy for > > NT: Microsoft's monopoly power helps a lot of justifications of > > significant and immediate need. Apple has no such luxury. > I don't think Microsoft's monopoly power helps in that case, but their > mindshare helps immensely at selling NT to the dunderheads at the top. The typical argument goes: "NT's not POSIX-certified, but we absolutely need something on the server side that 'interoperates' well, for our purposes, with all our Windows 98 client boxes, and there's no POSIX-certified solution that remotely does the job"... Don't kid yourself. Having near-total control of the client side gives enormous leverage on the server side, knocking down even POSIX certification requirements. > I doubt they have to worry whether their guided missile cruiser control > systems (or whatever) can run Office. Have you been on one of those ships? You'd be surpised what you'd find. > Could an ISV create a Posix-compliant layer for OS/Xen, have it > certified, and make a killing selling Posix OS/X to the gubmint? Maybe. There are stranger things in heaven and earth, Jonathan, than are dreamt of in our philosophies. Sean
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,la.transportation,uk.games.trading-cards.misc,alt.support.crohns-colitis,alt.tv.bh90210,alt.flame.macintosh Subject: cmsg cancel <19990120234412.18156.qmail@hades.rpini.com> Control: cancel <19990120234412.18156.qmail@hades.rpini.com> Date: 20 Jan 1999 23:49:19 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.19990120234412.18156.qmail@hades.rpini.com> Sender: Anonymous <nobody@remailer.ch> Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:28:17 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <782ils$c8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782pc2$a3e@news3.newsguy.com> In article <782pc2$a3e@news3.newsguy.com>, lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) wrote: > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: >>> What good do you expect out of accusing people? >> >> Amusement, mainly. > > Ah. So how can you justify wasting everyone's time and money on a > cross-posted flamewar conducted for your amusement? You may not be a novice to Usenet, but you sure are acting like one. Let's take it from the top: You don't have to like me, or what I say. If you don't want to see my articles, learn to use a killfile. If you got a problem with me and you can't manage to say anything of relevance to the Usenet newsgroups beyond a personal attack, take it to email. As for the notion that I have to "justify" anything, who died and left you in charge? The generally accepted criteria for judging whether an article is appropriate are whether it is relevant to the group(s) being posted to, does not violate their charters, and is not excessively cross-posted. In this specific case, the thread was about porting Yellow Box (technology from NeXT now owned by Apple) to Linux, when some of the Linux advocates started making excessive claims about Linux's role and importance vis-a-vis Open Source. 3 newsgroups for the original thread: comp.sys.{mac,next,linux}.advocacy; gnu.misc.discuss added for the Open Source history/GNU software aspect. And if you didn't understand any of this, ask the news admins hanging out around news.software.nntp and news.admin.net-abuse what the BI is and how it compares with the number 4. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:08:54 +0100 Organization: University of Bonn, Germany Message-ID: <1dlxz3v.1cyifntisr6saN@ascend-tk-p204.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-JeQ4ozV91uzW@localhost> User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 taiQ <pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com> wrote: > A Linux, Mac and Windows-compatible Yellow Box-based offline news > reader (with the subscribtion data on a shared drive, even removable, > for painless cross-platform use) would've been quite attractive but I > don't see it happening under current circumstances. Anyone interested in developing such a beast should mail me privately, please. Dirk
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:30:23 -0800 References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> Organization: Concentric Message-ID: <macghod-2001991630240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp250.dialsprint.net> In article <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. > > Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in > epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no > information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers > will probably only arrive after my membership expires. Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I think George Graves said something about Apple select members not getting it seeded to them, so you wont get it even if they do ship earlier than that :)
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:45:24 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36A678A4.6D0DD852@exu.ericsson.se> References: <782ils$c8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782pc2$a3e@news3.newsguy.com> <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: [cut] > You don't have to like me, or what I say. If you don't want to see my > articles, learn to use a killfile. If you got a problem with me and you can't > manage to say anything of relevance to the Usenet newsgroups beyond a personal > attack, take it to email. But be careful, because he's got something of a double-standard going, here. I won't post Chuck's personal email response to me in a public forum like this one, but suffice it to say it was something along the lines of "Depite my nausea I'll debate you in public, but don't ever again disturb the tranquility of my personal email account." I'm not really sure what advice to give you, except to just avoid such people and leave them to their problems. > As for the notion that I have to "justify" anything, who died and left you in > charge? The generally accepted criteria for judging whether an article is > appropriate are whether it is relevant to the group(s) being posted to, does > not violate their charters, and is not excessively cross-posted. Right, again the double-standard. <quote> >> Try a little introspection next-- do you admire the way you appear around >> this neck of Usenet? Do you make contributions that people thank you for? >> Do you accomplish anything of value at all? </quote> This was the standard he applied just over three months ago. Apparently, when the chips are down and the ball is in Chuck's court, things get a bit...fluid. > In this specific case, the thread was about porting Yellow Box (technology > from NeXT now owned by Apple) to Linux, when some of the Linux advocates > started making excessive claims about Linux's role and importance vis-a-vis > Open Source. 3 newsgroups for the original thread: > comp.sys.{mac,next,linux}.advocacy; gnu.misc.discuss added for the Open > Source history/GNU software aspect. Just to clarify, my last post to that thread was over three weeks ago, if memory serves. I don't know why Northstar.net regurgitated that posting again a few days ago, but since you had already responded to it once (three weeks ago) I figured it would be understood and wasn't worth a cancel message. The thread you describe above is not relevant to the spat you're having right now. > And if you didn't understand any of this, ask the news admins hanging out > around news.software.nntp and news.admin.net-abuse what the BI is and how it > compares with the number 4. MJP
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:38:43 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7860f2$cq7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <christian.bau-2001991053120001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> In article <christian.bau-2001991053120001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com>, christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com (Christian Bau) wrote: > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > > > > This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > > > > PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. > > And why then is the British Government starting to investigate against the > largest PC dealers for keeping prices artificially high? Because the largest PC dealers keep the prices artificially high. You don't have to buy a PC from one of the large "high street" computer dealers. There are reputable companies that have prices far lower than the large dealers. Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 21 Jan 1999 01:03:26 GMT Organization: a guest of Shadow Island Games Message-ID: <785ucu$8tp@news3.newsguy.com> References: <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > You may not be a novice to Usenet, but you sure are acting like one. 1985. What I'm doing is making you condemn yourself with your own words. Hope you enjoyed playing. > As for the notion that I have to "justify" anything, who died and left you in > charge? Only a novice would ask that. > And if you didn't understand any of this, ask the news admins hanging out > around news.software.nntp and news.admin.net-abuse what the BI is and how it > compares with the number 4. Since when did I mention the BI? I didn't. Following the weak, informal rules doesn't prevent you from being a jerk wasting lots of people's time. -- g
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <785ucu$8tp@news3.newsguy.com> Message-ID: <ZZvp2.97$eA.73@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:07:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:07:53 PDT Organization: @Home Network Jesus, would you guys get over yourselves already? If this is a manner in which you feel compelled to stroke your egos, perhaps you could do so privately without cross-posting to four public groups. I'm sure you could suitably impress each other with your respective absence of social skills without wasting the rest of our time in the process. (sorry I cross posted this) In <785ucu$8tp@news3.newsguy.com> Greg Lindahl wrote: > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > > > You may not be a novice to Usenet, but you sure are acting like one. > > 1985. What I'm doing is making you condemn yourself with your own > words. Hope you enjoyed playing. > > > As for the notion that I have to "justify" anything, who died and left you in > > charge? > > Only a novice would ask that. > > > And if you didn't understand any of this, ask the news admins hanging out > > around news.software.nntp and news.admin.net-abuse what the BI is and how it > > compares with the number 4. > > Since when did I mention the BI? I didn't. Following the weak, > informal rules doesn't prevent you from being a jerk wasting lots of > people's time. > > -- g > > -
From: atlauren@uci.edu (Andrew Laurence) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:31:02 -0800 Organization: UC Irvine Message-ID: <atlauren-2001991731020001@jungleland.acs.uci.edu> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <GOTo2.67$xJ1.15@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> _3;X4o1Yg^$]=Oc\u In article <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu>, seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) wrote: >> FYI, Jobs wasn't fired, he was stripped of his title, but kept on. His pride >> wouldn't allow him to stay in his reduced capacity, so he left, prematurely >> selling off his Apple stocks in a rash move that would end up costing him >> tens if not hundreds of millions. > >He was moved into a new office in a building all alone. The message >doesn't get more clear than that. So if you don't like "fired", perhaps >you might like "ousted". Or "pushed out". Or "shown the door". "Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out." -- Andrew Laurence atlauren@uci.edu Office of Academic Computing http://www.oac.uci.edu/~atlauren/ UC Irvine "Perceive the need."
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:27:50 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn7ad456.60g.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <785ucu$8tp@news3.newsguy.com> On 21 Jan 1999 01:03:26 GMT, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@pbm.com> wrote: >"Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > >> You may not be a novice to Usenet, but you sure are acting like one. > >1985. What I'm doing is making you condemn yourself with your own >words. Hope you enjoyed playing. > >> As for the notion that I have to "justify" anything, who died and left you in >> charge? > >Only a novice would ask that. Not at all. Anyone that doesn't care for self appointed sysop-wannabes would ask that. > >> And if you didn't understand any of this, ask the news admins hanging out >> around news.software.nntp and news.admin.net-abuse what the BI is and how it >> compares with the number 4. > >Since when did I mention the BI? I didn't. Following the weak, >informal rules doesn't prevent you from being a jerk wasting lots of >people's time. The only time he is wasting is those of novices, people who don't care that their time is being wasted and those that need a weak excuse to whine. Even if you have been on this net since 1985, you still act like a whining newbie. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:21:03 -0500 Organization: international sand club Message-ID: <36A6AB2F.B6A87051@nospam.geocities.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Wilykat <wilykat@tds.net> Wilykat wrote: > > It gets dropped over and over and over.. > > I hope that was a torture test to prove Macs are more durable than any > PeeCee. Actually, it was just a televised trashing. And then it only proved a few things. 1) that when an iMac is dropped, you can't even turn it on anymore, 2) when an iMac breaks, you gotta lug the whole thing around to be fixed, and 3) you can't really fix it right anyway. -elvina
From: elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:21:53 -0500 Organization: international sand club Message-ID: <36A6AB61.22A6E3F2@nospam.geocities.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Wilykat <wilykat@tds.net> Wilykat wrote: > > It gets dropped over and over and over.. > > I hope that was a torture test to prove Macs are more durable than any > PeeCee. Actually, it was just a televised trashing. And then it only proved a few things. 1) that when an iMac is dropped, you can't even turn it on anymore, 2) when an iMac breaks, you gotta lug the whole thing around to be fixed, and 3) you can't really fix it right anyway. -elvina
From: elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:23:00 -0500 Organization: international sand club Message-ID: <36A6ABA4.5BA467F7@nospam.geocities.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wilykat wrote: > > It gets dropped over and over and over.. > > I hope that was a torture test to prove Macs are more durable than any > PeeCee. Actually, it was just a televised trashing. And then it only proved a few things. 1) that when an iMac is dropped, you can't even turn it on anymore, 2) when an iMac breaks, you gotta lug the whole thing around to be fixed, and 3) you can't really fix it right anyway. -elvina
From: kupan787@aol.com.edu.cc (Kupan 787) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: 21 Jan 1999 05:15:04 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> Message-ID: <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> >I believe there are also rumors about making the Blue Box transparent to >the user. This was the whole reason Apple is going with MacOS X instead of the old Rhapsody. With MacOS X (not server) you get the regular Mac finder (run your old mac apps) with a new set of api's (to run carbon apps) and I believe there are going to be somehting like YellowBox extensions to run the YellowBox apps. ( Now I can't remember if that is even the right name, oh well...) I can't wait until it is released. It sounds to be a great OS, now lets hope it is sold at a decent price :) Ben
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: hugo burm <hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Sender: news@tamtam.xs4all.nl Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: datagram References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:11:02 GMT Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. > > Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in > epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no > information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers > will probably only arrive after my membership expires. > > -- > Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) Members of the Select Apple Dev program will not get Rhapsody/OSX for free. As far as I could decipher Apple's press release, you can buy it at a reduced price. Concerning the MacOS crap: at least one of the CD's Apple did sent to you contained some appropriate information. Minor problem is that you probably could not read this CD because Intel DR2 is not able to read MacOS CD's (not to mention you will have to find out how to read these esoteric .hqx files) Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be killed by Apple because they will try to use it as a marketing tool trying to sell hardware that nobody really wants. hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system From: hugo burm <hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Sender: news@tamtam.xs4all.nl Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: datagram References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:26:52 GMT "Edwin E. Thorne" wrote: > > > If you want to ask what advantages the Mac has over a PC, don't include > Intergraph. Intergraph is a workstation, not a PC. Sure, it runs NT, > and it uses an Intel processor. But none of the rest of its > architecture is "PC." > > The Intergraph graphics advantage comes from its proprietary, expensive > graphics hardware, not from NT or its Intel processor. > > Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > created. > > -- > Remove the spamblock to reply to me. I have a (dead) Intergraph workstation in front of me. It has a huge mainboard with 2 PPro's, an Intel chipset, a Matrox Millenium VGA, an Intel 100+ LAN, a 78xx Adaptec SCSI, and a Vibra chipset from Creative Labs. All these components are 100% standard. Nothing special apart from the fact that it is all integrated on one big board. If you want to replace this board it will cost you $2800. That is about three times the cost of a standard PC solution with the same specs. hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 20 Jan 99 09:33:07 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan20093307@slave.doubleu.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan19095254@slave.doubleu.com> <784nu7$78i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-reply-to: spagiola@my-dejanews.com's message of Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:07:10 GMT In article <784nu7$78i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spagiola@my-dejanews.com writes: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > I don't think there are many really good reasons why Apple should > have two substantially identical interim releases of their future > operating system out there. One should suffice to get the > feedback they need to work into the final release, Indeed, one should suffice. But it will only suffice if a sufficiently large number of people use it, and use it in a variety of ways. The announced pricing of OSX Server means that very few people will use it, and that they'll largely use it as a server (for which use the announced price is very good value). The end-user aspects that will be central to OSX itself will hardly get any kind of workout. Depends, though. They don't need a "large" number of people using it, they just need "enough". Will the current release get, say, 5000 people using it on a regular basis? Probably. Better yet, those users will be a self-selected subset of the market with good incentive to test things out. If my experience is any guide, dropping the price by half would have to more than quadruple the number of users in order to increase the absolute value of the feedback Apple gets from this program. Not only do users who paid lower prices have less incentive to send in good bug reports, Apple would also have to deal with a greater volume of duplicate reports. I'm willing to bet that they didn't set the pricing based on whether they could "make money" at a given price. For a company Apple's size, the income difference between a $500 and a $1k version isn't even pocket change. I'd bet they set the price based on how many people past experience indicates will use it. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:11:31 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:11:32 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> , macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > In article <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell > Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > >> I admit that I did over react to Steve's Sullivan's post. This is because he >> only posts when there is a chance to bash Apple . > > > That is totally false. your problem with me is while I feel free to > praise APple (and I do) and bash intel and wintel) my feeling free to bash > apple gets your panties in a bunch. > > And it is totally false I have been posting under different names. The > whole time I have been posting under one name, macghod@concnetric.net What's your preoccupation with penises and panties? Such immature blabber. Oh, I see, you get your kicks from the reactions you can provoke on the newsgroups. Very clever indeed! You throw in a little serious discussion so as to not come off as a complete jerk, then you can be safe for a few weeks before people get wise to your little game. Ingenious! It's not about feeling free to criticize or praise Apple, it's about trolling, flaming, and bashing. Quite a difference. Finally, I have no problem with you. Your problem is with yourself. -- Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. Wm. (Soup) Jr.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Going of Steve? Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:27:32 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36A3C364.1DA3EDD0@ericsson.com> References: <hugh-150119992056010425@223.minneapolis-03-04rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <793B7F7277B1F3AD.2AFBCD0CFB55A193.C358B974382BD158@library-proxy.airnews.net> <znu-1801990030390001@ppp-15.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <gmgraves-1801991117100001@sf-usr0-26-90.dialup.slip.net> <36A3B5A0.5589ED66@worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Kaiman wrote: > > I truly hope not. If Jobs had not rescued the company from a long line of > incompetent CEO's, I'd be writing this note on some crappy Windows box. Actually, I > think I'd have gone back to pencil and paper instead. Ah, the future of technology is in such hands... "I truly hope not." > If Steve goes, Apple's > continued profitability and vision would be in serious jeopardy. They're in serious jeopardy whether or not he stays. MJP
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:52:42 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Message-ID: <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl>, hugo burm <hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl> wrote: > Members of the Select Apple Dev program will not get Rhapsody/OSX for free. As > far as I could decipher Apple's press release, you can buy it at a reduced price. > Concerning the MacOS crap: at least one of the CD's Apple did sent to you > contained some appropriate information. Minor problem is that you probably could > not read this CD because Intel DR2 is not able to read MacOS CD's (not to mention > you will have to find out how to read these esoteric .hqx files) > > Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be killed by Apple because they will try to > use it as a marketing tool trying to sell hardware that nobody really wants. i.e. more reliable hardware is what no one really wants becuase so many PC technicians are relying on the hardware product to *fail* thereby ensuring them job placement. Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be wildly popular and cause more people than ever to "spend a little more" for the Macintosh hardware, and be so damn reliable that even linux users will gasp at it's "stayupability" ;-) -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:54:50 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77vlus$rfa$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <OdJo2.24$xJ1.26@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <36A75B7A.6A83@earthlink.net> It seems as though Apple is almost starting from scratch. You need a new machine to run the new OS. That's Apple's basic strategy. 1. No OS X for intel when there is a base of Openstep users already on intel. That wipes out this base. 2. No OS X for pre-G3 machines. OS X Server is supposed to run on some pre-G3 machines however only people with the need of a server environment will look into this OS due to price. No curious or casual users. This wipes out most of the install base of pre-G3 users and there's a lot of these! Compared to the overall Mac user base, the G3 user base is still quite small. They are taking a substantial Mac user base and whitling it down to nothing. IMHO I think this is wrong. They should release OS X Server for intel even if it is the last (Openstep 5) and they should support pre-G3 Macs with a OS X Workstation release at a reasonable cost. Just my $.02 Steve
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 21 Jan 1999 17:19:01 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> In article <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl>, hugo burm <hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl> wrote: >> The Intergraph graphics advantage comes from its proprietary, expensive >> graphics hardware, not from NT or its Intel processor. > >I have a (dead) Intergraph workstation in front of me. >It has a huge mainboard with 2 PPro's, an Intel chipset, a Matrox Millenium VGA, an >Intel 100+ LAN, a 78xx Adaptec SCSI, and a Vibra chipset from Creative Labs. All >these components are 100% standard. Nothing special apart from the fact that it is >all integrated on one big board. If you want to replace this board it will cost you >$2800. That is about three times the cost of a standard PC solution with the same >specs. Modern Intergraphs get their value from their graphics cards, not the other specs. They have lots of very good custom 3D graphics hardware stuffed onto them--eg, the Intense 3D cards, probably the fastest 3D graphics on PC hardware, including the SGI visual PCs, and faster than many classic graphics workstations (SGI O2, etc.) Unfortunately, they want to sell some of their high-end graphics cards only as part of an Intergraph PC..... -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:54:14 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald R. McGregor wrote: > Modern Intergraphs get their value from their graphics cards, not > the other specs. They have lots of very good custom 3D graphics > hardware stuffed onto them--eg, the Intense 3D cards, probably the > fastest 3D graphics on PC hardware, including the SGI visual PCs, > and faster than many classic graphics workstations (SGI O2, etc.) > Unfortunately, they want to sell some of their high-end graphics > cards only as part of an Intergraph PC..... That's because Intergraph wants to coast on brand name, the same thing Apple and SGI (to name two other failing hardware companies) are doing. If Intergraph sold its graphics components on the open market, it would have to compete specifically on the quality and performance of those components. If, instead, it can wrap everything up in a value-added package, it increases its margins and builds brand-name with the whole package. Then, years down the line, when its hardware is not price/performance-competitive, they will have a core of buyers and users who are 1) dependent on them for compatibility reasons, because they bought an entire Intergraph system rather than just one component, and possibly 2) loyal to Intergraph for the same reasons that Mac and Indy/Onyx/Octane/O2 users are loyal, respectively, to Apple and SGI. It's a fairly old and standard business practice: vertical integration for the sake of brand identity. It's demonstrated, for instance, in: bundling products, large partnerships announced with great fanfare, an emphasis on form over function (say "iMac" ten times fast), and investment in "competition-killer" projects with high risk rates (such projects rarely ship on time, if ever). Unfortunately for these companies, the unprecedented pace of technology in this industry makes brand an asset only in the very-short-term. Using it as a long-term strategy, the way these companies are attempting, will cost them big (as it has already cost hundreds of others: Corel's NetWinder, Quark Disaster 2.0, even gaming software companies like ION Storm and its long-overdue Daikatana). MJP
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 21 Jan 1999 19:37:30 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote: >> Unfortunately, [Intergraph] want to sell some of their high-end graphics >> cards only as part of an Intergraph PC..... > >That's because Intergraph wants to coast on brand name, the same thing >Apple and SGI (to name two other failing hardware companies) are doing. >If Intergraph sold its graphics components on the open market, it would >have to compete specifically on the quality and performance of those >components. If, instead, it can wrap everything up in a value-added >package, it increases its margins and builds brand-name with the whole >package. I think you're using marketing terms a bit loosely. It really isn't a "branding" issue per se--intergraph is just bundling their lower value PCs with something people want, their high value graphics cards, in order to drive up margins. "branding" is usually defined as the creation of consistent emotional responses to a product or line. Nike's brand evokes athleticism, other brands evoke trust or permanacy (IBM). Intergraph might actually do fairly well selling their graphics chips in the general market. They're high end and expensive, and the SGIs visual PCs beat them on a polygon/$ basis, but there could be decent market at the high end. [...] >It's a fairly old and standard business practice: vertical integration >for the sake of brand identity. It's demonstrated, for instance, in: >bundling products, large partnerships announced with great fanfare, an >emphasis on form over function (say "iMac" ten times fast), iMac is fairly good branding; it has some modest ease of use features, and some style, which reinforce the publics view of what Macs are "about". I happen to agree that Apple will eventually get swamped by the intel commodity hardware wave. A brand has some value, and people will buy Coke over cheaper generic sodas, or Quaker Oats over store generic cereals. But somewhere down the line the price/performance of intel will be greater than the brand value of Apple hardware. You can see glimmerings of that now, with the reluctance of people to buy Apple hardware; part of the Intel "brand" is compatability with a lot of software (linux, BeOS, winders, future winders releases, Unix.) I'd like to see Apple establish their brand identity in Intel hardware. It won't have as much value, but it will give them long-term prospects. > and >investment in "competition-killer" projects with high risk rates (such >projects rarely ship on time, if ever). This doesn't have much to do with branding. Unless shoot-for-the-moon projects is part of what you want consumers to think of when they're considering buying your product. > Unfortunately for these >companies, the unprecedented pace of technology in this industry makes >brand an asset only in the very-short-term. More likely branding is difficult in commodity-oriented, feature-driven markets. -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:50:25 -0800 References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com> Organization: Concentric Message-ID: <macghod-2101991250260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net> In article <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > In article <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> , > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > > In article <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell > > Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > > > >> I admit that I did over react to Steve's Sullivan's post. This is because he > >> only posts when there is a chance to bash Apple . > > > > > > That is totally false. your problem with me is while I feel free to > > praise APple (and I do) and bash intel and wintel) my feeling free to bash > > apple gets your panties in a bunch. > > > > And it is totally false I have been posting under different names. The > > whole time I have been posting under one name, macghod@concnetric.net > > What's your preoccupation with penises and panties? > Such immature blabber. You fibbed and said I constantly post under diferent names, which is a lie, and when confronted you call me names, and think I am the immature one? Your post made 2 claims, that I only post to bash Apple, which is a lie, and that I often post under different names, which is also a lie. *I* respond to points made in other people's posts, something you are apparently unable to do.
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:23:22 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> In article <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > I happen to agree that Apple will eventually get swamped by the > intel commodity hardware wave. A brand has some value, and people > will buy Coke over cheaper generic sodas, or Quaker Oats over > store generic cereals. But somewhere down the line the price/performance > of intel will be greater than the brand value of Apple hardware. Bad analogy. RC Cola and Pepsi will NEVER be cheap enough for me to drink anything other than Coca-Cola. In fact, they'd have to pay me enough to take the stuff to the dump and get some Cokes on the way home. Trev
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:58:18 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald R. McGregor wrote: > I think you're using marketing terms a bit loosely. It really isn't > a "branding" issue per se--intergraph is just bundling their lower > value PCs with something people want, their high value graphics cards, > in order to drive up margins. "branding" is usually defined as the > creation of consistent emotional responses to a product or line. > Nike's brand evokes athleticism, other brands evoke trust or > permanacy (IBM). I agree that I didn't explain it in the orthodox context, but I think the point is as I made it: Intergraph is building a brand, and that brand is "Intergraph graphics workstations". Not Intergraph components, or Intergraph software, or Integraph basketball shoes, but "graphics workstations". It's working, because that's what the press calls them time and time again, despite the fact that they are differentiated from general-purpose PCs by the *graphics card alone*. > Intergraph might actually do fairly well selling their graphics > chips in the general market. They're high end and expensive, and > the SGIs visual PCs beat them on a polygon/$ basis, but there could > be decent market at the high end. No, I'm not arguing with this at all. I think you're spot on with your analysis. But I also think that Intergraph *won't* sell their chips or board-level solutions in the general market because they believe it's more profitable, long-term, to sell "Intergraph workstations" instead of "Intergraph graphics cards". And I'm saying that it's fundamentally a branding issue. > [...] > > >It's a fairly old and standard business practice: vertical integration > >for the sake of brand identity. It's demonstrated, for instance, in: > >bundling products, large partnerships announced with great fanfare, an > >emphasis on form over function (say "iMac" ten times fast), > > iMac is fairly good branding; it has some modest ease of use features, > and some style, which reinforce the publics view of what Macs are > "about". It's great branding; unfortunately, while it builds acknowledgement of this concept of "what Macs are 'about'", I think it does literally nothing to educate customers whatsoever. Can you tell me what, exactly, is being said about "what Macs are 'about'"? Or is it just a case of building word-picture association. "Quick, what do you think of when I say 'Apple'?" "Uh...I see a cute little blue computer..." Obviously, the trouble is that "what Macs are 'about'" is crashes, obsolete software, a failing transition to NeXT technology, a very small consumer base, and overpriced and underavailable hardware. I'm not saying that Intergraph suffers from these problems so severely as Apple, but it's the same sort of cover-up job, perhaps hedging against future such issues. > I happen to agree that Apple will eventually get swamped by the > intel commodity hardware wave. A brand has some value, and people > will buy Coke over cheaper generic sodas, or Quaker Oats over > store generic cereals. But somewhere down the line the price/performance > of intel will be greater than the brand value of Apple hardware. I think you're looking at this backwards. It was *Apple* that tried to build a commodity, and a brand. You can sell brand if you're pushing commodities, because people stop thinking about how much they're spending and just say "gimme that, I need it". "Which one?" the sales rep asks. "Apple," they say, because they know that brand. Or, that's the way Apple always wanted it. Intel and Microsoft never built commodities. Intel revved its chips faster than anybody, and Microsoft revved its software even faster. They built brand, yes, but it was because they were known for being the fastest-moving companies with the most products, not because they were prone to catch-phrases like "what Windows is all about". Of course, this is anything but an absolute pronouncement; Intel and Microsoft do as much as anyone (and probably more) to build pure brand-name identity. But they also build the technology behind those brands and they know how to do business *without* the brands. Intergraph only builds the graphics card, that's it! That's all they make inside those boxes. But the whole thing is sold as an "Intergraph graphics workstation". > You can see glimmerings of that now, with the reluctance of people > to buy Apple hardware; part of the Intel "brand" is compatability > with a lot of software (linux, BeOS, winders, future winders releases, > Unix.) I'd like to see Apple establish their brand identity in > Intel hardware. It won't have as much value, but it will give > them long-term prospects. I don't think that the Intel "brand" persuades a lot of former Apple people. I think that the price/performance ratios and the way Intel does business are what make that change for most people. Intel sells its brand *hard*, yes, but you may have noticed that it sells brand chiefly to the TV crowd, most of whom haven't yet bought a computer. > This doesn't have much to do with branding. Unless shoot-for-the-moon > projects is part of what you want consumers to think of when they're > considering buying your product. I think that's what Apple has been doing for years. Pink, Taligent, and Copland were all "We're going to give you everything you want! It slices, it dices..." projects. Let's call them Great Wonder projects, because that's what they were: the Statue of Zeus for thousands of Mac fanatics having arguments with PC-loving co-workers around the watercooler. "Oh yeah, well, wait for Project Fantastic to arrive, then you'll be sorry!" > More likely branding is difficult in commodity-oriented, feature-driven > markets. I must be using commodity in a different way than you are, because I think "commodity-oriented, feature-driven" is an oxymoron. I'll look it up to see what I'm missing (I'm one of those people who read a word and automatically think they know how to use it). MJP
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:59:38 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote: > Bad analogy. RC Cola and Pepsi will NEVER be cheap enough for me to drink > anything other than Coca-Cola. In fact, they'd have to pay me enough to > take the stuff to the dump and get some Cokes on the way home. Bad analogy. Selling RC Cola and Pepsi have little in common with selling computers. The same goes for automobiles, but we've already had this fight before... MJP
From: eric@EMIEng.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: kupan787@aol.com.edu.cc References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> Message-ID: <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> Date: 21 Jan 99 20:56:27 GMT Kupan 787 wrote: > This was the whole reason Apple is going with MacOS X instead of the old > Rhapsody. With MacOS X (not server) you get the regular Mac finder (run your > old mac apps) with a new set of api's (to run carbon apps) and I believe there > are going to be somehting like YellowBox extensions to run the YellowBox apps. > ( Now I can't remember if that is even the right name, oh well...) > > I can't wait until it is released. It sounds to be a great OS, now lets hope it > is sold at a decent price :) I've been wondering myself if after MacOS X is released, with its planned transparent BlueBox, will MacOS X *Server* continue to use its separate BlueBox environment or will it also use the new transparent one. Any speculation? Eric Marshall EMI Software Engineering
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:51:20 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial03p42.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36A7AF67.69A28C52@tone.ca> References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 1999 22:50:24 GMT eric@EMIEng.com wrote: > Kupan 787 wrote: > > This was the whole reason Apple is going with MacOS X instead of the old > > Rhapsody. With MacOS X (not server) you get the regular Mac finder (run your > > old mac apps) with a new set of api's (to run carbon apps) and I believe there > > are going to be somehting like YellowBox extensions to run the YellowBox apps. > > ( Now I can't remember if that is even the right name, oh well...) > > > > I can't wait until it is released. It sounds to be a great OS, now lets hope it > > is sold at a decent price :) > > I've been wondering myself if after MacOS X is released, with its > planned transparent BlueBox, will MacOS X *Server* continue to use its > separate BlueBox environment or will it also use the new transparent one. > Any speculation? > > Eric Marshall > EMI Software Engineering I think its pretty clear that the intent is that MacOSX will be a natural upgrade to MacOSX Server. It will just perform both the server and workstation roles. Certainly it will be more natural than the movement from MacOS8/9 to MacOSX, which may take some time. Michael Monner
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:01:53 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <788bkp$epi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <785ucu$8tp@news3.newsguy.com> In article <785ucu$8tp@news3.newsguy.com>, lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) wrote: > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: >> You may not be a novice to Usenet, but you sure are acting like one. > > 1985. What I'm doing is making you condemn yourself with your own > words. Hope you enjoyed playing. Superficial reading skills aren't something to be smug about. Hint: "1985" is the answer to a question that was not asked. Try again. >> As for the notion that I have to "justify" anything, who died and left you >> in charge? > > Only a novice would ask that. How original. I bet everyone will think you're really clever if your next message claims my reading comprehension is poor, too. >> And if you didn't understand any of this, ask the news admins hanging out >> around news.software.nntp and news.admin.net-abuse what the BI is and how it >> compares with the number 4. > > Since when did I mention the BI? I didn't. Following the weak, > informal rules doesn't prevent you from being a jerk wasting lots of > people's time. Refresh my memory: Have you even once tried to debate issues with me of relevance to the newsgroups you're posting to, rather than these personal attacks? Not even after I asked you to take any personal problem you might have with me to email? No? Think about it, before you respond with another repetition of your pet theory that I'm the one wasting other people's time. Because I'd rather discuss something interesting and of relevance without the petty bickering. I'll give it one more go-around before giving up on a lost cause. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36A7B94B.EAE217F5@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:50:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:50:19 PDT Michael Lankton wrote: > In <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> Rex Riley wrote:-- > > It was not price in the first place that killed NeXT. > > It certainly didn't help, and was the biggest reason that Sun ate NeXT alive > on campuses nationwide. I can't speak for other campuses but at Columbia.edu Sun Labs did not replace the NeXT lab. NeXT Lab was relegated to X terminals when it became completely obvious to Columbia that it was irresponsible to send graduates with Obj-C, IB, and NeXT experience into a market that demanded Unix, C++ and Phigs. Columbia chose Sun for their computer lab after the NeXT Lab for the biggest reason that it was C++. -r
Message-ID: <36A7BC5A.E0A01109@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:03:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:03:23 PDT Michael Lankton wrote: >The NeXT gui is the first gui environment I have ever used > that I have preferred to the command line. There simply isn't any way to > really communicate just why it feels so natural and is more comfortable than > other guis, other than to quote Jobs (who I'm no fan of btw) by saying: > "...it just works." [snip Bud Tribble tribute] The "it just works" metaphor is poetic but beyond seamless UI services, the OS/GUI combination enabled a _work-flow_ of productivity which only hard stressed usage revealed. Otherwise, it was just another GUI until real work had to flow through its interface. The most unnatural aspect of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP that took some getting comfortable with were Inspectors. These guys have no equivalents on the Mac so I expect the concepts of users, groups and permissions could bump Mac fans heads against the wall. -r
Message-ID: <36A7BD54.C27FC7A7@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:07:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:07:32 PDT Michael Lankton wrote: > [snip accurate NeXT history...] > History shows that > Jobs learned nothing from his previous mistakes at Apple. It seems he was > determined to repeat the failure of the Lisa. > I'm surprised he hasn't managed to put Apple out of their misery already > since his return ;) [ note: Troll Alert]
From: Frederic Foucault <ff48@columbia.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:14:00 -0500 Organization: Columbia University Message-ID: <36A7C2BE.C2455780@NoSPAM.columbia.edu> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 1999 00:14:02 GMT Hey Mister hugo, you probably never saw or used NeXTStep/OpenStep or Rhapsody because you should know that you can decompress anything. You can decompress .hqx files (you can't read compress files, excuse me). Just go to Stepwise server for the OpenStep community and download the new great utility called: OpenUp . I hope that I have helped you to resolve your problem. Sincerely, ff. PS: Buy OpenStep 4.2 for intel and have fun. hugo burm wrote: > Minor problem is that you probably could > not read this CD because Intel DR2 is not able to read MacOS CD's (not to mention > you will have to find out how to read these esoteric .hqx files) > > Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be killed by Apple because they will try to > use it as a marketing tool trying to sell hardware that nobody really wants. > > hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:05:24 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <788fbs$i02$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <782ils$c8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782pc2$a3e@news3.newsguy.com> <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A678A4.6D0DD852@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36A678A4.6D0DD852@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > Charles Swiger wrote: > [cut] >> You don't have to like me, or what I say. If you don't want to see my >> articles, learn to use a killfile. If you got a problem with me and you >> can't manage to say anything of relevance to the Usenet newsgroups beyond >> a personal attack, take it to email. > > But be careful, because he's got something of a double-standard going, > here. I won't post Chuck's personal email response to me in a public > forum like this one, but suffice it to say it was something along the > lines of "Depite my nausea I'll debate you in public, but don't ever > again disturb the tranquility of my personal email account." I'm not > really sure what advice to give you, except to just avoid such people > and leave them to their problems. It's pretty simple, Mike. I'm willing to give Greg a chance to say his piece in private. I don't have to like what he says, but if is somewhat civil about his points rather than being thoroughly obnoxious, I'll try to give him a straightfoward response. If he can't manage to say something worth my time to read, then he'll be added to the list of addresses that my mail servers reject. In your case, I decided some time ago that there was nothing I wanted to discuss with you in private. I'll ignore, argue, or even (once in a while) agree with what you have to say in public, as the case may be. >> As for the notion that I have to "justify" anything, who died and left you in >> charge? The generally accepted criteria for judging whether an article is >> appropriate are whether it is relevant to the group(s) being posted to, does >> not violate their charters, and is not excessively cross-posted. > > Right, again the double-standard. What you quote below is my private opinion about the traits of individuals who are contributing to Usenet. But it's merely one person's subjective opinion, not the consensus of Usenet news administrators as a whole. And if you're honest, you'll acknowledge that I've never claimed that even _your_ postings fall into the spam category. But I stand by what I've said, and I'm entirely willing to be judged to my own standards. > <quote> > >>> Try a little introspection next-- do you admire the way you appear around >>> this neck of Usenet? Do you make contributions that people thank you for? >>> Do you accomplish anything of value at all? > > </quote> > > This was the standard he applied just over three months ago. Apparently, > when the chips are down and the ball is in Chuck's court, things get a > bit...fluid. Mixing your metaphors a tad? -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:01:32 +1030 Message-ID: <788gmc$d5m$1@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au> From: "Timothy Priest" <timothy.priest@dsto.defence.gov.au> Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Organization: AOD-DSTO References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <joe.ragosta-1901991547210001@wil104.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)>Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy >Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. >Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:17 > > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > >> As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, >> depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price >> fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? >> >> This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > > Higher than that in most places. > >> >> PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. > > Actually, Apple reported that the price difference is around $80 on an > iMac after accounting for taxes. It was reported on Macintouch yesterday, > IIRC. Please explain Australia Joe. It is ridiculous that for a new Blue G3 (350 MHz with DVD) that is selling for US$1995, I would pay the equivalent of US$2832 (tax inc.; ~US$2321 tax ex) in Australia. Apple Australia needs to pull its socks up, especially since PC prices are actually cheaper in Australia (in real terms) than in the US. I had a hard time justifying my new G3 at work with the prices Apple Australia is charging. Apple is doing a lot right, but pricing in Australia is not one of those things! It is interesting to note that at the last WWDC a reporter from Canberra (OZ capital) asked SJ about this very problem and he said he would look into it. Hmmm! Tim Priest Tim Priest
Message-ID: <36A7C3F2.44749C99@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A5C348.34177E85@hursley.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:35:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:35:46 PDT David Griffiths wrote: > Michael Lankton wrote: > > > Well then, they were too ambitious for a little start-up then. NeXT didn't > > have the resources of a Microsoft or a Sun. > > They should have released the NeXTStep source code under license the > same way that Sun did with Java. It wasn't resources that got Java where > it is today, it was the huge adoption by the developer community (which > completely took Sun by surprise). > > (Although the dependence of NeXTStep on DPS would have been a big hurdle > to overcome). > To be honest, the Internet wasn't ubiquitous at the time as it was for Sun's Java. A lot of the dynamics behind Java owes itself in large part to the Internet. NeXT enjoyed ubiquitous phone, FedEx and mail. Only NeXT's large corporations and .edu accounts had Internet access 24/7. Developer's and users at best enjoyed 9600/14400 modem access. Licensing source ala JAVA was _never_ a NeXT option, even under the OPENSTEP specs source was tightly controlled as strategic corporate assets. NeXT philosophy was always to leverage NeXT's source code enhancements for customers. Which meant that if customers wrote to NSwidgets but NSwidgets didn't do matrices, NeXT could release NSwidget with matrices and customers wouldn't need to write a single line of code to have applications to take advantage of matrices. Functionality came free with each upgrade... The *fear* was that everybody would implement their own matricesObject and suddenly NeXT reuse, scalability and maintenance marketing went out the window. Who'd guess that willy nilly developers would develop NeXT's OS for them? NeXT understood gcc, gnu and miscKit concepts. MiscKit is NeXT's best effort to open the development community when they transferred DBKit .et .al to Don. Nothing there ever hinted that NeXT developers were ready to take up bigger challenges. I don't think IMHO that open source would have made *any* positive difference in the outcome of NeXTstep. -r
Message-ID: <36A7C850.DBF28683@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77un0c$5if$2@news.panix.com> <slrn7ab219.o66.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36A5AD78.AB2D3BAA@nstar.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:54:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:54:24 PDT Michael J. Peck wrote: > Matt Kennel wrote: > > [cut] > > > Even Linux still gets knocked on because it doesn't support all the > > latest hardware, and that's despite an astonishing and heroic job by > > many driver programmers worldwide. > > Maybe I have a misperception of the situation, but it seems to me that > it's more like an astonishing and incredibly heroic job by a very small > number of driver programmers worldwide, with lots of effort > (collectively) by a larger number of people who write just one or two > drivers each. The last thing I want to do is detract from the effort > poured into drivers by thousands of testers, users, and even authors, > but if you look at the network driver situation, for instance, you've > got > > Donald Becker > Paul Gortmacher > Alan Cox > > These three people have written a *ton* of Linux network drivers. > Moreover, most other drivers are based on code written by these three. > Video drivers, etc. face much the same situation. > > > It makes much more sense for Apple to make Intel-based PC's which are > > designed to work right with OSX. But then, what would their advantage be > > be over the G3? A native-speed version of Virtual PC? It would be nice > > if such a thing existed, but I haven't heard of it being there. > > > > The disadvantage would be bad PR to the effect of "Apple is > > capitulating, it's only a matter of time before they give up MacOS and > > go Wintel like the rest of the sane world." > > Why wouldn't Apple benefit from an "astonishing and heroic job by many > driver programmers worldwide" with OS X Server on a platform besides the > Macintosh? Has anyone else read the painful updates from Alan Cox > regarding his work on MacLinux? It gives me the impression that people > are just plain turned off toward situations like that, where a single > company built hardware in a completely insane and unpredictable way. > It's ironic, you're saying "Apple can succeed on Mac hardware, only vast > volunteer effort made Linux drivers successful", but it seems to me that > Apple *could* use volunteers but is doing its very best to prevent that, > from crazy hardware to inexplicable software strategies. > > I couldn't write a hardware driver to save my life. It leaves me in awe > of people who can, and I believe that they would go the distance if > Apple would just meet them halfway (or even less). > > MJP Steve Sarich might have a thing or two to tell you about meeting BIG corporations halfway on writing drivers. Somebody more familiar on the Sarich backstory should pique up if you ask. -r
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-2101991250260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <fTQp2.10167$XY6.266639@news.san.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:54:18 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:54:19 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <macghod-2101991250260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net> , macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > In article <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell > Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > >> In article <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> , >> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: >> >> > In article <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell >> > Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: >> > >> >> I admit that I did over react to Steve's Sullivan's post. This is > because he >> >> only posts when there is a chance to bash Apple . >> > >> > >> > That is totally false. your problem with me is while I feel free to >> > praise APple (and I do) and bash intel and wintel) my feeling free to bash >> > apple gets your panties in a bunch. >> > >> > And it is totally false I have been posting under different names. The >> > whole time I have been posting under one name, macghod@concnetric.net >> >> What's your preoccupation with penises and panties? >> Such immature blabber. > > You fibbed and said I constantly post under diferent names, which is a > lie, and when confronted you call me names, and think I am the immature > one? > > Your post made 2 claims, that I only post to bash Apple, which is a lie, > and that I often post under different names, which is also a lie. > > *I* respond to points made in other people's posts, something you are > apparently unable to do. > Sure, you respond to the parts of a post which don't expose you and your silly game. I have never called you names, only a liar, which I believe is quite accurate. If you remember, your post which started this thread talked about kissing Steve's Job penis and of Apple and Jobs being pathological liars. Remember Steve. Very immature in my book. My respond was immature in kind. That post was made five posts ago. If I was, wrong I'm sorry. Instead of responding to my most recent posts, you keep harping on about that one post on which I have already responded in kind. Now, I am one not to back down from a good flame war, but I don't feel that you are a enough of a challenge. Saying penis, panties, and liar-liar over and over again doesn't really inspire me to great comebacks. So what I'm saying to you Steve (oh I'm sorry; macghod) is go play with someone your own size, because I'm too big and bad for you to handle. -- You will know fear. Then you will know pain. Then you will come back to the MacOS. soup
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 22 Jan 1999 02:07:06 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <788mga$4f9$1@remarQ.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael Peck <Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com> wrote: >> >It's a fairly old and standard business practice: vertical integration >> >for the sake of brand identity. It's demonstrated, for instance, in: >> >bundling products, large partnerships announced with great fanfare, an >> >emphasis on form over function (say "iMac" ten times fast), >> >> iMac is fairly good branding; it has some modest ease of use features, >> and some style, which reinforce the publics view of what Macs are >> "about". > >It's great branding; unfortunately, while it builds acknowledgement of >this concept of "what Macs are 'about'", I think it does literally >nothing to educate customers whatsoever. Can you tell me what, exactly, >is being said about "what Macs are 'about'"? Or is it just a case of >building word-picture association. "Quick, what do you think of when I >say 'Apple'?" "Uh...I see a cute little blue computer..." Ease of use, style, creativity. The ads for the iMac harped on #1; the iMacs are stylish, just sitting there; and both those elements help reinforce the perception of #3. The distinctive looks also help reinforce the association with ease of use and creativity. In the future when people see the Apple look, they'll associate that with Apple and think "that must be easy to use". Style has a non-zero value. Purchases aren't always made on a strictly rational basis. >Obviously, the trouble is that "what Macs are 'about'" is crashes, >obsolete software, a failing transition to NeXT technology, a very small >consumer base, and overpriced and underavailable hardware. Luckily, expectations for software are criminally low, so this doesn't hurt Apple much. And it's still easier to use than MS, so, algebraically, they're not that bad. And the transition to YB generates nearly as much interest as your average slug race, outside of the NeXT community. >Intel and Microsoft never built commodities. Intel revved its chips >faster than anybody, and Microsoft revved its software even faster. They >built brand, yes, but it was because they were known for being the >fastest-moving companies with the most products, not because they were >prone to catch-phrases like "what Windows is all about". Their brand was and is compatability. And Intel is famous for their "Intel Inside" branding campaign, which they have spent millions on. This campaign did just about nothing to educate consumers, other than associating Intel chips with dancing bunny suits. This was specifically designed to counter the advent of compatibles like AMD and Cyrix. >Of course, this is anything but an absolute pronouncement; Intel and >Microsoft do as much as anyone (and probably more) to build pure >brand-name identity. But they also build the technology behind those >brands and they know how to do business *without* the brands. Brand maintenence. You won't get an argument from me that Apple has been wasting lots of money in the R&D department, which ultimately undergirds the brand in the technology world. > I'd like to see Apple establish their brand identity in >> Intel hardware. It won't have as much value, but it will give >> them long-term prospects. > >I don't think that the Intel "brand" persuades a lot of former Apple >people. I think that the price/performance ratios and the way Intel does >business are what make that change for most people. Intel sells its >brand *hard*, yes, but you may have noticed that it sells brand chiefly >to the TV crowd, most of whom haven't yet bought a computer. The vast majority of the consumer PC market doesn't know their way around a benchmark. They see "Pentium" and a megahertz rating; if it's got more megahertz, it's better. (The hell with cache and memory) In short, the TV crowd _is_ the major market. Their knowledge that it's got an Intel processor inside helps them make a decision. (Apples brand is decoupled from what's inside, so the transition from 68K to PPC wasn't that bad from a marketing standpoint.) >> This doesn't have much to do with branding. Unless shoot-for-the-moon >> projects is part of what you want consumers to think of when they're >> considering buying your product. > >I think that's what Apple has been doing for years. Pink, Taligent, and >Copland were all "We're going to give you everything you want! It >slices, it dices..." projects. Let's call them Great Wonder projects, >because that's what they were: the Statue of Zeus for thousands of Mac >fanatics having arguments with PC-loving co-workers around the >watercooler. "Oh yeah, well, wait for Project Fantastic to arrive, then >you'll be sorry!" But it's not branding. >> More likely branding is difficult in commodity-oriented, feature-driven >> markets. > >I must be using commodity in a different way than you are, because I >think "commodity-oriented, feature-driven" is an oxymoron. I'll look it >up to see what I'm missing (I'm one of those people who read a word and >automatically think they know how to use it). A bit sloppy. "Commodity" in the sense that they can be relatively easily substituted; who cares about Dell vs. Compaq? "feature-driven" in the sense that performance of various subsystems can be used for marketing purposes. Megahertz, how big of a monitor, how big of a disk drive, etc. -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:48:46 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36A7E70E.9F038C09@ericsson.com> References: <782ils$c8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782pc2$a3e@news3.newsguy.com> <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A678A4.6D0DD852@exu.ericsson.se> <788fbs$i02$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: [cut] > > This was the standard he applied just over three months ago. Apparently, > > when the chips are down and the ball is in Chuck's court, things get a > > bit...fluid. > > Mixing your metaphors a tad? Uh...yes. This actually makes for a pretty funny read... MJP
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <macghod-2001991630240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp250.dialsprint.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <7RSp2.10179$XY6.267597@news.san.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:08:34 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:08:35 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <macghod-2001991630240001@sdn-ar-001casbarp250.dialsprint.net> , macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > In article <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > >> For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. >> >> Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in >> epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no >> information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers >> will probably only arrive after my membership expires. > > Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I think George Graves said something > about Apple select members not getting it seeded to them, so you wont get > it even if they do ship earlier than that :) > [troll alert #2] -- "Whatever you want-Wants you" -- "A Course in Miracles" William V. Campbell Jr. Country Liv'n wcampbe1@san.rr.com
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:57:05 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-2101992357060001@col-pm3-170.innova.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > > Bad analogy. RC Cola and Pepsi will NEVER be cheap enough for me to drink > > anything other than Coca-Cola. In fact, they'd have to pay me enough to > > take the stuff to the dump and get some Cokes on the way home. > > Bad analogy. Selling RC Cola and Pepsi have little in common with That's what I said. Trev
Message-ID: <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> From: MDA <mallen@visi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:38:52 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:37:28 CDT Michael Peck wrote: > > Donald R. McGregor wrote: > > > I think you're using marketing terms a bit loosely. It really isn't > > a "branding" issue per se--intergraph is just bundling their lower > > value PCs with something people want, their high value graphics cards, > > in order to drive up margins. "branding" is usually defined as the > > creation of consistent emotional responses to a product or line. > > Nike's brand evokes athleticism, other brands evoke trust or > > permanacy (IBM). > > I agree that I didn't explain it in the orthodox context, but I think > the point is as I made it: Intergraph is building a brand, and that > brand is "Intergraph graphics workstations". Not Intergraph components, > or Intergraph software, or Integraph basketball shoes, but "graphics > workstations". It's working, because that's what the press calls them > time and time again, despite the fact that they are differentiated from > general-purpose PCs by the *graphics card alone*. > > > Intergraph might actually do fairly well selling their graphics > > chips in the general market. They're high end and expensive, and > > the SGIs visual PCs beat them on a polygon/$ basis, but there could > > be decent market at the high end. > > No, I'm not arguing with this at all. I think you're spot on with your > analysis. But I also think that Intergraph *won't* sell their chips or > board-level solutions in the general market because they believe it's > more profitable, long-term, to sell "Intergraph workstations" instead of > "Intergraph graphics cards". And I'm saying that it's fundamentally a > branding issue. > > > [...] > > > > >It's a fairly old and standard business practice: vertical integration > > >for the sake of brand identity. It's demonstrated, for instance, in: > > >bundling products, large partnerships announced with great fanfare, an > > >emphasis on form over function (say "iMac" ten times fast), > > > > iMac is fairly good branding; it has some modest ease of use features, > > and some style, which reinforce the publics view of what Macs are > > "about". > > It's great branding; unfortunately, while it builds acknowledgement of > this concept of "what Macs are 'about'", I think it does literally > nothing to educate customers whatsoever. Can you tell me what, exactly, > is being said about "what Macs are 'about'"? Or is it just a case of > building word-picture association. "Quick, what do you think of when I > say 'Apple'?" "Uh...I see a cute little blue computer..." > > Obviously, the trouble is that "what Macs are 'about'" is crashes, > obsolete software, a failing transition to NeXT technology, a very small > consumer base, and overpriced and underavailable hardware. I'm not > saying that Intergraph suffers from these problems so severely as Apple, > but it's the same sort of cover-up job, perhaps hedging against future > such issues. > > > I happen to agree that Apple will eventually get swamped by the > > intel commodity hardware wave. A brand has some value, and people > > will buy Coke over cheaper generic sodas, or Quaker Oats over > > store generic cereals. But somewhere down the line the price/performance > > of intel will be greater than the brand value of Apple hardware. > > I think you're looking at this backwards. It was *Apple* that tried to > build a commodity, and a brand. You can sell brand if you're pushing > commodities, because people stop thinking about how much they're > spending and just say "gimme that, I need it". "Which one?" the sales > rep asks. "Apple," they say, because they know that brand. Or, that's > the way Apple always wanted it. > > Intel and Microsoft never built commodities. Intel revved its chips > faster than anybody, and Microsoft revved its software even faster. They > built brand, yes, but it was because they were known for being the > fastest-moving companies with the most products, not because they were > prone to catch-phrases like "what Windows is all about". > > Of course, this is anything but an absolute pronouncement; Intel and > Microsoft do as much as anyone (and probably more) to build pure > brand-name identity. But they also build the technology behind those > brands and they know how to do business *without* the brands. Intergraph > only builds the graphics card, that's it! That's all they make inside > those boxes. But the whole thing is sold as an "Intergraph graphics > workstation". > > > You can see glimmerings of that now, with the reluctance of people > > to buy Apple hardware; part of the Intel "brand" is compatability > > with a lot of software (linux, BeOS, winders, future winders releases, > > Unix.) I'd like to see Apple establish their brand identity in > > Intel hardware. It won't have as much value, but it will give > > them long-term prospects. > > I don't think that the Intel "brand" persuades a lot of former Apple > people. I think that the price/performance ratios and the way Intel does > business are what make that change for most people. Intel sells its > brand *hard*, yes, but you may have noticed that it sells brand chiefly > to the TV crowd, most of whom haven't yet bought a computer. > > > This doesn't have much to do with branding. Unless shoot-for-the-moon > > projects is part of what you want consumers to think of when they're > > considering buying your product. > > I think that's what Apple has been doing for years. Pink, Taligent, and > Copland were all "We're going to give you everything you want! It > slices, it dices..." projects. Let's call them Great Wonder projects, > because that's what they were: the Statue of Zeus for thousands of Mac > fanatics having arguments with PC-loving co-workers around the > watercooler. "Oh yeah, well, wait for Project Fantastic to arrive, then > you'll be sorry!" > > > More likely branding is difficult in commodity-oriented, feature-driven > > markets. > > I must be using commodity in a different way than you are, because I > think "commodity-oriented, feature-driven" is an oxymoron. I'll look it > up to see what I'm missing (I'm one of those people who read a word and > automatically think they know how to use it). > > MJP I'm sorry, but you come off as someone who may have at one time worked for Apple and now has a grudge. MDA
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 21 Jan 1999 21:18:22 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7af6ct.3ik.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <77qftt$jbf$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 1999 21:18:22 GMT On 16 Jan 1999 16:49:01 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: : :Funny how the two companies can be in a similar spot and have such :different plans: : : Sun: We make our money on custom hardware. : Apple: We make our money on custom hardware. : Sun: We better give away an x86 OS to attract attention. : Apple: We better not sell an x86 OS, it would bleed sales. Sun: We make our money on custom hardware costing $20K+++ Apple: We make our money on custom hardware costing $2-$3K. Sun: We better give away an x86 OS to attract attention. Since anybody who wants a real server will buy Sparcs anyway we won't lose money. And the attention we're attracting is not much better than how much Solaris X86 sucks compared to Linux. Java was a better idea. Apple: Um, we're in a more delicate situation. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: "Sascha Bohnenkamp" <bohnenkamp@mevis.de> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:47:52 +0100 Organization: Universitaet Bremen, Germany Message-ID: <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit *snip* >Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be wildly popular and cause more >people than ever to "spend a little more" for the Macintosh hardware, and >be so damn reliable that even linux users will gasp at it's >"stayupability" face it: the next os was never as stable as linux is now ... and you not have smp ... what kind of os should this be?
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: 22 Jan 1999 08:33:36 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <789d50$geq$1@news.xmission.com> References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A5C348.34177E85@hursley.ibm.com> <36A7C3F2.44749C99@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 1999 08:33:36 GMT Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> wrote: > [...] NeXT understood gcc, gnu and > miscKit concepts. MiscKit is NeXT's best effort to open the > development community when they transferred DBKit .et .al to Don. First: MiscKit didn't get DBKit (or PhoneKit). Just IXKit and 3DKit. I'd argue that while some people at NeXT (and now Apple) understood and do understand open source, most of them do not. Moreover, the company itself doesn't really understand. They get a few of the superficial points, but it is a surface knowledge and not a deep understanding. I hear, however, that perhaps some of it is slowly sinking in and that this understanding is developing at last; we should be keeping our ears to the ground... As to not understanding open source, let me offer an example. Although they gave me the source, I'm under the restriction of an NDA and I can only give it out to people under NDA. The terms are strict enough that very few people have been able to get through to the source. Though (hint hint) I have NEVER refused to allow people at it if they go through the documents. The trouble is that not everyone wants to sign these babies, and for good reason. I explained to NeXT that this situation would severly hamper our chances for success with this code because it isn't a true open source model at all, and therefore all the positive dynamics I had hoped to draw upon would be nullified. (This should be an obvious thing to anyone who's read Raymond's stuff.) That, plus the state of what they handed me, has prevented us from ever making enough progress to lead to actually releasing anything solid, and that's a terrible shame. There's a lot more to the story, but the basic fact is that the people in charge knew they should give it away--enough of the people who understood open source made that much very clear to them--but the decision makers didn't understand it well enough and in the end made the move in a way that crippled the process. I still think it was a lot better than nothing: you have to give them credit for being brave enough to try to do the right thing, even if the execution was a little off center! If nothing else happened, I did learn a lot about the dynamics of open source type projects and what will and won't work. Hopefully that will come in handy in the future. :-) And if I'm lucky, given how much less important the 3DKit and IXKit are to Apple, I might even be able to now get them to let me open up the source the rest of the way. If everyone could attack it, IMHO it could probably be ported and working in a month or two...I think we just need more heads to bear on the problem and fewer restrictions to hamper progress. > Nothing there ever hinted that NeXT developers were ready to take up > bigger challenges. Had the source been truly open, I think you'd have found a different result. The community is capable of a whole lot more than you might expect. What I've learned about the people out there as I've done the MiscKit work has convinced me of that much. But if you want something to happen you have to be a facilitator and/or catalyst and make it easy for that something to happen. Few people seem interested in setting up a "framework", but once it is in place, many people are happy to drop stuff into it...if it is easy to do so. > I don't think IMHO that open source would have made *any* positive > difference in the outcome of NeXTstep. Had they done it in 1995 or 1996, it could have mattered--but you're right that anything before that, when NeXT seemed at its healthiest, would have been bad timing and probably would have been doomed. In many ways, NeXT was too far ahead of the industry for its own good. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: 22 Jan 1999 09:43:51 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Distribution: world Message-ID: <789h8n$459@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> References: <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> eric@EMIEng.com writes > I've been wondering myself if after MacOS X is released, with its > planned transparent BlueBox, will MacOS X *Server* continue to use its =================== > separate BlueBox environment or will it also use the new transparent one. > Any speculation? Will that be a translucent BondiBlueBox? Just couldn't resist :-) Yours, -- Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ @bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 19 Jan 1999 00:29:48 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <780jls$84l$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <nomail-1101991243320001@ele108.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> <77dm7t$kbs$1@crib.corepower.com> <77nbdv$22g$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> <36a0b7c3.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <77un0c$5if$4@news.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 1999 00:29:48 GMT Sal Denaro (sal@panix.com) wrote: > On 16 Jan 99 16:01:07 GMT, eric@EMIEng.com <eric@EMIEng.com> wrote: > > Ooh, bad example! The String class *can't* be subclassed, it's a final class. > >Just another reason why Java is so lackluster. > That was decided for security reasons. > There are workarounds, IIRC you can subclass stringbuffer if you needed to. Nope. java.lang.StringBuffer is final. Sean
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox BOF at MacWorld Date: 19 Jan 1999 05:08:25 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <781409$mqo$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SCOTT.99Jan7010241@slave.doubleu.com> <77i7bs$khd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <akMF5QHI4bXE@cc.usu.edu> <77ilko$m47$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> <77j40d$fi8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77jr4r$smt@shelob.afs.com> <alex-1501991014410001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77p94l$omm$1@news.digifix.com> <77qepf$1el$2@nnrp03.primenet.com> <77rs8f$nr0$1@news.digifix.com> <77sp8t$56b$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <77ufjd$n63$1@news.digifix.com> <77vfpa$onn$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <780g07$g6s$1@news.digifix.com> <780nt6$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <780nt6$hsu@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> >> Mac OS X Server will be made available at an academic >> discount. Just how steep that discount is going to be is something >> that we don't currently know. It would be nice if we could look to >> the Edu pricing on WebObjects as a guide. But unless Apple removes >> AppleShare IP and NetBooting, I don't think thats a realistic pricing. > >Removing those would kill the demand, so that wouldn't make any sense. >Without those features, it would be useless to education. > I should have made that clearer. I think it would be unreasonable to expect Edu pricing of apprx $80 (using WOF's $1500:$99 ratio as a guide) for the full product. I'd hope we'll get edu pricing in the $250 range full-featured. (*all this is kinda wierd to me, since for the first time I'm actually working for a College and qualify for these things!) -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Craig Burley <burley@tweedledumb.cygnus.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 22 Jan 1999 08:56:50 -0500 Organization: Cygnus Support Message-ID: <y690evqul9.fsf@tweedledumb.cygnus.com> References: <782ils$c8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782pc2$a3e@news3.newsguy.com> <785oq4$64b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A678A4.6D0DD852@exu.ericsson.se> <788fbs$i02$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A7E70E.9F038C09@ericsson.com> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> writes: > Charles Swiger wrote: > > [cut] > > > > This was the standard he applied just over three months ago. Apparently, > > > when the chips are down and the ball is in Chuck's court, things get a > > > bit...fluid. > > > > Mixing your metaphors a tad? > > Uh...yes. This actually makes for a pretty funny read... Priceless. Thanks for calling my attention to it. It's gone into my quotes file, with your name on it...if that's not okay, please let me know, but it makes me laugh, so I'll keep it in my private copy of the file in any case. (I don't really have a "public" copy... yet....) My favorite quote of all time came from my sister: "Animal behavior is so interesting. I once put a pineapple on the back porch and watched it decompose." So...*true*, in so many ways. :) -- "Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful." James Craig Burley, Software Craftsperson burley@gnu.org
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:42:53 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78a2pb$s2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> eric@EMIEng.com wrote: > I've been wondering myself if after MacOS X is released, with its > planned transparent BlueBox, will MacOS X *Server* continue to use its > separate BlueBox environment or will it also use the new transparent one. > Any speculation? OSX will be, to all effects and purposes, OS X Server 2.0. If Apple continues to sell something called OSX Server, it will most likely be OSX + server-specific software like Appleshare and WebObjects. So, of course "OSX Server" will then have the same transparent bluebox as OSX itself, as well as carbon and all the rest. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:51:10 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78a38p$sil$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A413D7.D2DF28D6@yahoo.com> <v_Uo2.72$xJ1.54@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A56E98.FA24489A@yahoo.com> <wXep2.52$eA.56@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <36A5C348.34177E85@hursley.ibm.com> <36A7C3F2.44749C99@yahoo.com> <789d50$geq$1@news.xmission.com> To: don@misckit.com don@misckit.com wrote: > ... you have to > give them credit for being brave enough to try to do the right thing, even if > the execution was a little off center! Not a bad summary of NeXT's and Apple's efforts as a whole, although I suspect many would want to replace "a little" with something stronger. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: 22 Jan 1999 16:08:49 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <78a7qh$5gl$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <alex-1601990947280001@cs48-18.austin.rr.com> <77vkv3$qj5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36A7C3F2.44749C99@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 1999 16:08:49 GMT Rex Riley (rr6013@yahoo.com) wrote: > The *fear* was that everybody would implement their own matricesObject and > suddenly NeXT reuse, scalability and maintenance marketing went out the window. > Who'd guess that willy nilly developers would develop NeXT's OS for them? NeXT > understood gcc, gnu and miscKit concepts. MiscKit is NeXT's best effort to open > the development community when they transferred DBKit .et .al to Don. Nothing > there ever hinted that NeXT developers were ready to take up bigger challenges. Points of order: 1) NeXT did not give DBKit to the MiscKit ("Don" == Don Yacktman). 3DKit and IndexingKit, yes. And even these are not remotely "open" -- they have very significant license restrictions on their use, disclosure, and distribution. 2) The MiscKit was never an effort by NeXT in any sense of the word. It was an outgrowth of Don's own personal freeware kit distribution. Sean, a contributor to the MiscKit (and a guy who used to hang out with Don)
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac OS X - a diamond Date: 22 Jan 1999 16:36:04 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Distribution: world Message-ID: <78a9dk$idt@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> References: <36A7BC5A.E0A01109@yahoo.com> Rex Riley writes > > The most unnatural aspect of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP that took some getting > comfortable with were Inspectors. These guys have no equivalents on the > Mac so I expect the concepts of users, groups and permissions could bump > Mac fans heads against the wall. > The inspectors are an early appearance of what today is called non-modal dialogs, which are coming up more and more in Windows apps, and are considered a great step forward. Are there no such things in MacOS apps? Really? Would be silly to call it an easy-to-use OS (GUI) then. Yours, -- Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ @bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 22 Jan 1999 15:51:58 GMT Organization: a guest of Shadow Island Games Message-ID: <78a6qu$9re@news1.newsguy.com> References: <788bkp$epi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > Have you even once tried to debate issues with me of relevance to the > newsgroups you're posting to, rather than these personal attacks? First off, these aren't personal attacks. Calling everything in sight 'ad hominim' is another novice feature. Second off, given that you've never said anything about an issue worth debating, no, I've never debated issues with _you_. I've debated them with many other people. > Think about it, before you respond with another repetition of your pet theory > that I'm the one wasting other people's time. You even agreed you were only posting for your personal amusement instead of any constructive purpose, so I will leave the field for you to contract yourself a few more times. -- g
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Distribution: world Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2201990947070001@term5-42.vta.west.net> References: <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <789h8n$459@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:47:07 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:47:08 PDT In article <789h8n$459@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>, suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de wrote: >> I've been wondering myself if after MacOS X is released, with its >> planned transparent BlueBox, will MacOS X *Server* continue to use its >> separate BlueBox environment or will it also use the new transparent one. >> Any speculation? >Will that be a translucent BondiBlueBox? Ha! I wonder if, five months after the release of OSX, they'll introduce new translucent OS "boxes" in four new "flavors". The GrapeBox (Linux-binary compatability), TangerineBox (Win32 APIs), StrawberryBox (OS/2?), and LimeBox (Amiga?). Plus the BondiBlueBox will be renamed the BlueberryBox. Heheheh... -- -Forrest Cameranesi Owner of the Universe, seeking employees for "Ruler" and "Master" positions. Apply at front desk. All prices subject to chance. Universe, the Universe logo, and all objects contained within are (TM) and (C) Everything Unlimited, a wholly owned subsidary of Cameranesi Enterprises. Remember, "We know what you want. We know what you need. We know where you live."
Message-ID: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: GNUstep Screenshots Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:57:27 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:03:00 CDT For disbelievers, check it out...OpenStep running around in the wild... :) http://gnustep.current.nu/screenshots.html http://pweb.netcom.com/~far/far.html and more info at http://www.gnustep.org -Eric
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:05:17 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > Bad analogy. Selling RC Cola and Pepsi have little in common with > selling computers. A comodity is a comodity. The PCs are very close to becoming comodity items which mean that the Manufacturers will have to differetiate their "comodity " product from the competitors. So with this in mind the analogy is not that bad. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:20:23 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 1999 19:21:39 GMT Eric A. Dubiel wrote in message <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net>... >For disbelievers, check it out...OpenStep running around in the wild... :) > >http://gnustep.current.nu/screenshots.html >http://pweb.netcom.com/~far/far.html > >and more info at http://www.gnustep.org The window manager in those screenshots is Window Maker, I do believe.
From: "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <78aj9u$5sa$1@news.erinet.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 1999 19:24:46 GMT Sascha Bohnenkamp wrote in message <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de>... >*snip* > >face it: the next os was never as stable as linux is now ... and you not Have you ever even run NS/OS?
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:30:01 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36A8D1B9.9F5B4A40@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MDA wrote: > I'm sorry, but you come off as someone who may have at one time worked for > Apple and now has a grudge. Not only that, but now I'm working as a paid agent for Microsoft. Which means that you can safely dismiss everything I say, regardless of its value. I guess when you hit too close to home, it's fair game for opponents to start calling "traitor!" instead of arguing the logic. MJP
From: Steven Kan <steven@kan.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 22 Jan 1999 12:09:49 PST Organization: SHINE Message-ID: <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote: > > Peter wrote: > > > A comodity is a comodity. The PCs are very close to becoming comodity > > This is a ludicrous notion. PCs are very close to becoming commodities? > Interesting, which industries are less commodity-like than computing > technology? Must be that fast-moving textile industry. Or the > feature-driven agricultural market. > > > items which mean that the Manufacturers will have to differetiate their > > "comodity " product from the competitors. > > This is tautological. Differentiation is *always* necessary. The problem > with commoditization is that differentation becomes *difficult*, and > brand becomes more necessary. This is not a problem with PC products. In > fact, PC products are less commodity-driven than ever. Once upon a time, > you bought a VGA video card, and that was it. Nowadays, you have more > features-based differentiation than ever before. There are countless > examples of the same. > > > So with this in mind the > > analogy is not that bad. > > The analogy is horrible. I don't care what they put in my soft drink > container, as long as it's fizzy, the right color, and it tastes like > sugar water, just like any other soft drink. Drop-in replacements for > Sprite, like Slice and 7-Up, are generally acceptable. They must be, > since if you ask for Sprite, KFC will ask you "Is Slice okay?" What am I > going to do, argue with the restaurant personnel for the features I want > in my soft drink? "Could you please color it sludge-brown for me, so it > looks more like Coca-Cola?" > > I don't care whose name is on my milk as long as it's 2% milkfat. I > don't care whose name is on my tuna fish. I don't care whose name is on > my stapler, or my pens, or my tape dispenser, or my coffee mug, or my > cereal bowl, or my plastic dishwares, or my notepad, or my socks. > > Those are commodities. Computers are not. When I'm at work (i.e. not using a Mac), and we need a new Wintel machine, we don't care so long as it has a xxx MHz PII, a yy GB HD, a decent graphics card with zz MB VRAM/SDRAM/SGRAM, 10/100 Ethernet and a qq inch monitor. Except for our specialized functions (like engineering and graphics), we're just not that picky. Even the brand doesn't matter too much, since we have an on-site support person who can fix anything except a hw failure. In that segment (the financial analysts, secretaries, clerks, other cubicle-farm residents), PCs are very commoditized. In most of the segments inhabited by readers of these newsgroups, I will agree that they're not commoditized. -- A rich man who hailed from Seattle #``````` Wrote Win95 to do battle, # ``````` But Mac users pity # ``````` The masses not witty # ``````` Enough to know Wintel's for cattle. #. ``````` ~ ~ . \_@_/ ``````` ^_@ o . V ``````` Steven "Rocket Man" Kan `-' - \_@_ ~ . ###### mailto:steven@kan.org V \ ~ . ###### http://www.kan.org ~ . #H2O## Everybody S.H.I.N.E. ~ .#POLO# Support Heterogeneity In Networked Environments ~ ~ ######
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:49:16 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > A comodity is a comodity. The PCs are very close to becoming comodity This is a ludicrous notion. PCs are very close to becoming commodities? Interesting, which industries are less commodity-like than computing technology? Must be that fast-moving textile industry. Or the feature-driven agricultural market. > items which mean that the Manufacturers will have to differetiate their > "comodity " product from the competitors. This is tautological. Differentiation is *always* necessary. The problem with commoditization is that differentation becomes *difficult*, and brand becomes more necessary. This is not a problem with PC products. In fact, PC products are less commodity-driven than ever. Once upon a time, you bought a VGA video card, and that was it. Nowadays, you have more features-based differentiation than ever before. There are countless examples of the same. > So with this in mind the > analogy is not that bad. The analogy is horrible. I don't care what they put in my soft drink container, as long as it's fizzy, the right color, and it tastes like sugar water, just like any other soft drink. Drop-in replacements for Sprite, like Slice and 7-Up, are generally acceptable. They must be, since if you ask for Sprite, KFC will ask you "Is Slice okay?" What am I going to do, argue with the restaurant personnel for the features I want in my soft drink? "Could you please color it sludge-brown for me, so it looks more like Coca-Cola?" I don't care whose name is on my milk as long as it's 2% milkfat. I don't care whose name is on my tuna fish. I don't care whose name is on my stapler, or my pens, or my tape dispenser, or my coffee mug, or my cereal bowl, or my plastic dishwares, or my notepad, or my socks. Those are commodities. Computers are not. MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:27:01 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steven Kan wrote: > When I'm at work (i.e. not using a Mac), and we need a new Wintel > machine, we don't care so long as it has a xxx MHz PII, a yy GB HD, a > decent graphics card with zz MB VRAM/SDRAM/SGRAM, 10/100 Ethernet and a > qq inch monitor. Well, gosh. That seems like an awfully significant number of features and variables for a commodity. > Except for our specialized functions (like engineering > and graphics), we're just not that picky. Not picky, except for speed, disk size, graphics acceleration, and amount of memory. What you're saying is that brand is the only thing you don't care about. > Even the brand doesn't matter > too much, since we have an on-site support person who can fix anything > except a hw failure. Oh, and reliability. Well, to each his own. > In that segment (the financial analysts, > secretaries, clerks, other cubicle-farm residents), PCs are very > commoditized. Nope. I know what the definition of commodity is. The relevant entry from Merriam-Webster's is "1:c: a mass-produced unspecialized product." PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. > In most of the segments inhabited by readers of these newsgroups, I will > agree that they're not commoditized. They either are, or they aren't. The admission that there are markets wherein PCs see specialization automatically contradicts the definition. The PC is one of the few products which steadily defy commoditization. Clothing is another, due to the fashion industry that spends billions every year on preventing its commoditization. Automobiles defy commoditization for yet different reasons. Ask yourself why computers suffer such severe depreciation on a -- literally -- daily basis. Then ask yourself why a box of salt doesn't. MJP
From: Steven Kan <steven@kan.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 22 Jan 1999 14:08:52 PST Organization: SHINE Message-ID: <36A8F6F1.6DBF@kan.org> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Peck wrote: > > Steven Kan wrote: > > > When I'm at work (i.e. not using a Mac), and we need a new Wintel > > machine, we don't care so long as it has a xxx MHz PII, a yy GB HD, a > > decent graphics card with zz MB VRAM/SDRAM/SGRAM, 10/100 Ethernet and a > > qq inch monitor. > > Well, gosh. That seems like an awfully significant number of features > and variables for a commodity. Crude oil, wheat, hogs, cattle, cotton and a bunch of other commodities also have minimum specs and different price points for different levels of quality. But once I have a set of vendors willing to supply those minimum specs, it's price and delivery. There's not a whole lot else of meaning the vendor can supply. Compaq and Sony at times have attempted to add "internet buttons," a different desktop/shell, etc., but without much success. > > Except for our specialized functions (like engineering > > and graphics), we're just not that picky. > > Not picky, except for speed, disk size, graphics acceleration, and > amount of memory. What you're saying is that brand is the only thing you > don't care about. Speed--any vendor (Cyrix, AMD, Intel), so long as it runs Office at a decent clip. HD--any vendor so long as it it's big enough. Graphics--any vendor as long as it supports a large enough monitor. RAM--any vendor so long is it's enough. Any vendor, any vendor, any vendor. That's a commodity in my book. Not in everyone's, but it is in mine. > > Even the brand doesn't matter > > too much, since we have an on-site support person who can fix anything > > except a hw failure. > > Oh, and reliability. Well, to each his own. That is a whole 'nother thread. > > In that segment (the financial analysts, > > secretaries, clerks, other cubicle-farm residents), PCs are very > > commoditized. > > Nope. I know what the definition of commodity is. The relevant entry > from Merriam-Webster's is > > "1:c: a mass-produced unspecialized product." > > PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. Some are; some aren't. I know someone will argue that this is a meaningless tautology, i.e. all things are commodities except for those that aren't. I'll counter by arguing relative share. A very large fraction of the computers are sold as commodities, which makes the specialized segments the specific rather than the general case. > > In most of the segments inhabited by readers of these newsgroups, I will > > agree that they're not commoditized. > > They either are, or they aren't. The admission that there are markets > wherein PCs see specialization automatically contradicts the definition. > > The PC is one of the few products which steadily defy commoditization. > Clothing is another, due to the fashion industry that spends billions > every year on preventing its commoditization. Automobiles defy > commoditization for yet different reasons. Ask yourself why computers > suffer such severe depreciation on a -- literally -- daily basis. Then > ask yourself why a box of salt doesn't. I disagree that either all computers are commodities or else none of them is (I know, weird grammar, but gotta match numbers). Some segments allow for differentiation; some don't. Among the latter segments, a reasonable number of specifications is sufficient to fulfill the needs of most customers. Once those are met, price and delivery are most important, and it's very difficult for any single vendor to charge more for what is essentially the same thing. Note that I'm not suggesting that this holds for anyone reading this message. Most Usenet users are in segments that care an awful lot about things that cubicle farm denizens don't (or can't!) make decisions on. Regarding the salt, the cost of producing salt doesn't drop every year the way the cost of building computers does. -- A rich man who hailed from Seattle #``````` Wrote Win95 to do battle, # ``````` But Mac users pity # ``````` The masses not witty # ``````` Enough to know Wintel's for cattle. #. ``````` ~ ~ . \_@_/ ``````` ^_@ o . V ``````` Steven "Rocket Man" Kan `-' - \_@_ ~ . ###### mailto:steven@kan.org V \ ~ . ###### http://www.kan.org ~ . #H2O## Everybody S.H.I.N.E. ~ .#POLO# Support Heterogeneity In Networked Environments ~ ~ ######
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <QE6q2.10272$XY6.272153@news.san.rr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:07:43 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:07:44 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> , MDA <mallen@visi.com> wrote: >> >> I must be using commodity in a different way than you are, because I >> think "commodity-oriented, feature-driven" is an oxymoron. I'll look it >> up to see what I'm missing (I'm one of those people who read a word and >> automatically think they know how to use it). >> >> MJP > > I'm sorry, but you come off as someone who may have at one time worked for > Apple and now has a grudge. > > MDA Oh so you have finally unveiled Mr. MJP. Congradulations. ;-) soup
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> <36A8D1B9.9F5B4A40@ericsson.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <gG6q2.10273$XY6.272174@news.san.rr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:09:15 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:09:16 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <36A8D1B9.9F5B4A40@ericsson.com> , Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > MDA wrote: > >> I'm sorry, but you come off as someone who may have at one time worked for >> Apple and now has a grudge. > > Not only that, but now I'm working as a paid agent for Microsoft. Which > means that you can safely dismiss everything I say, regardless of its > value. > > I guess when you hit too close to home, it's fair game for opponents to > start calling "traitor!" instead of arguing the logic. > > MJP Oh so that's what you are! Couldn't quite find the right word myself. thanks. -- "The value of achievement lies in the achieving." -Einstein- Soup Jr. Country Liv'n wcampbe1@san.rr.com
From: Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:33:31 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F5yABv.1t4@RnA.nl> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <jpolaski-2001991003560001@d147-54.ce.mediaone.net> <stevehix-2001990902030001@192.168.1.10> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 1999 22:19:29 GMT stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) wrote: >> If I'm not mistaken, Apple's european releases always have followed the US >> ones for the most part. > >Sun's usually the same. For starters, localization (translation) >processes take more time... Sure, but I want the English (US) version. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:45:38 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Coffey wrote: > That branding is of little consequence is a good sign of commoditization. [pause] No, I beg to differ. Branding is of utmost importance to most consumer-level commodities, while features are of utmost importance to non-commodities. Branding is a good sign of increased commoditization, which is exactly what I have been arguing. After all, we call them "PCs", not even "IBM-compatible PCs", these days. Sign of disappearing brand, and decreasing commoditization as the pace of technology and feature-addition increases. By contrast, you call your facial tissues 'Kleenexes', your electrostatic copies 'Xeroxes', and here in the south, most people call soft drinks 'Cokes'. When you send something by express courier, you may call it "FedEx-ing". When you take acetaminophen, you probably call it "Tylenol", and when you take ibuprofen, you likely call it "Advil". Have you ever been given to calling psuedoephedrine "Sudafed"? Do you refer to "Xanax", "Halcyon", and "Prozac" by brand instead of drug? The line of argument you're proposing is, in my view, easily knocked down and little worth debating further. I can't understand what is so evasive about this concept of "commodities". > >Nope. I know what the definition of commodity is. The relevant entry > >from Merriam-Webster's is > > > >"1:c: a mass-produced unspecialized product." > > > >PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. > > Nope. They've become very commodity like, with individual manufacturers > unable to significantly influence prices. I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with commodities. I don't agree that individual manufacturers are unable to significantly influence prices, nor do I agree that such would be a sign of commoditization. Competitive, marginal pricing is actually a trademark of feature-driven markets, not commodity markets. Commodity markets, like the soft drink example, show great price disparity. Outside of Walmart you can get no-name sodas for 20 cents. Coca-Cola costs at least 50 cents per can. > >> In most of the segments inhabited by readers of these newsgroups, I will > >> agree that they're not commoditized. > > > >They either are, or they aren't. The admission that there are markets > >wherein PCs see specialization automatically contradicts the definition. > > > Nope. Similar products can be split into commodities and non-commodities. Whatever that is supposed to prove. PCs are not commodities. If you want to pick on a more specific subgroup, go ahead and make that assertion. I haven't seen it yet, and I have no additional interest in arguing around the vague notions you've posted. MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:00:34 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78b6ve$tad$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <788bkp$epi$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78a6qu$9re@news1.newsguy.com> In article <78a6qu$9re@news1.newsguy.com>, lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) wrote: > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: >> Have you even once tried to debate issues with me of relevance to the >> newsgroups you're posting to, rather than these personal attacks? > > First off, these aren't personal attacks. Calling everything in sight > 'ad hominim' is another novice feature. Second off, given that you've > never said anything about an issue worth debating, no, I've never > debated issues with _you_. I've debated them with many other people. Odd thing: for someone who _supposedly_ isn't debating any issues with me, and _supposedly_ isn't indulging in personal attacks, you seem to be responding to my messages quite a bit. I'd sure hate to think that you were lying through your teeth, here. >> Think about it, before you respond with another repetition of your pet theory >> that I'm the one wasting other people's time. > > You even agreed you were only posting for your personal amusement > instead of any constructive purpose, so I will leave the field for you > to contract yourself a few more times. What ever gave you the notion that there's a contradiction between the two? I said I was posting for my personal amusement, and that it would be nice if something constructive resulted from it.... -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:48:34 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2201991448340001@wil119.dol.net> References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> In article <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net>, eric@EMIEng.com wrote: > Kupan 787 wrote: > > This was the whole reason Apple is going with MacOS X instead of the old > > Rhapsody. With MacOS X (not server) you get the regular Mac finder (run your > > old mac apps) with a new set of api's (to run carbon apps) and I believe there > > are going to be somehting like YellowBox extensions to run the YellowBox apps. > > ( Now I can't remember if that is even the right name, oh well...) > > > > I can't wait until it is released. It sounds to be a great OS, now lets hope it > > is sold at a decent price :) > > I've been wondering myself if after MacOS X is released, with its > planned transparent BlueBox, will MacOS X *Server* continue to use its > separate BlueBox environment or will it also use the new transparent one. > Any speculation? I would guess that Mac OS X Server would be due for an upgrade around then, anyway. Call it MacOS X Server 2.0. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: "Brian C. Richardson" <debsguy@mindspring.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:16:50 -0500 Organization: Mindspring Message-ID: <36A8DCAC.EB17214B@mindspring.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steven Kan wrote: > Michael Peck wrote: > > > > Peter wrote: > > > > > A comodity is a comodity. The PCs are very close to becoming comodity > > > > This is a ludicrous notion. PCs are very close to becoming commodities? > > Interesting, which industries are less commodity-like than computing > > technology? Must be that fast-moving textile industry. Or the > > feature-driven agricultural market. > > > > > items which mean that the Manufacturers will have to differetiate their > > > "comodity " product from the competitors. > > > > This is tautological. Differentiation is *always* necessary. The problem > > with commoditization is that differentation becomes *difficult*, and > > brand becomes more necessary. This is not a problem with PC products. In > > fact, PC products are less commodity-driven than ever. Once upon a time, > > you bought a VGA video card, and that was it. Nowadays, you have more > > features-based differentiation than ever before. There are countless > > examples of the same. > > > > > So with this in mind the > > > analogy is not that bad. > > > > The analogy is horrible. I don't care what they put in my soft drink > > container, as long as it's fizzy, the right color, and it tastes like > > sugar water, just like any other soft drink. Drop-in replacements for > > Sprite, like Slice and 7-Up, are generally acceptable. They must be, > > since if you ask for Sprite, KFC will ask you "Is Slice okay?" What am I > > going to do, argue with the restaurant personnel for the features I want > > in my soft drink? "Could you please color it sludge-brown for me, so it > > looks more like Coca-Cola?" > > > > I don't care whose name is on my milk as long as it's 2% milkfat. I > > don't care whose name is on my tuna fish. I don't care whose name is on > > my stapler, or my pens, or my tape dispenser, or my coffee mug, or my > > cereal bowl, or my plastic dishwares, or my notepad, or my socks. > > > > Those are commodities. Computers are not. > > When I'm at work (i.e. not using a Mac), and we need a new Wintel > machine, we don't care so long as it has a xxx MHz PII, a yy GB HD, a > decent graphics card with zz MB VRAM/SDRAM/SGRAM, 10/100 Ethernet and a > qq inch monitor. Except for our specialized functions (like engineering > and graphics), we're just not that picky. Even the brand doesn't matter > too much, since we have an on-site support person who can fix anything > except a hw failure. In that segment (the financial analysts, > secretaries, clerks, other cubicle-farm residents), PCs are very > commoditized. > > In most of the segments inhabited by readers of these newsgroups, I will > agree that they're not commoditized. > -- > A rich man who hailed from Seattle #``````` > Wrote Win95 to do battle, # ``````` > But Mac users pity # ``````` > The masses not witty # ``````` > Enough to know Wintel's for cattle. #. ``````` > ~ ~ . \_@_/ ``````` > ^_@ o . V ``````` > Steven "Rocket Man" Kan `-' - \_@_ ~ . ###### > mailto:steven@kan.org V \ ~ . ###### > http://www.kan.org ~ . #H2O## > Everybody S.H.I.N.E. ~ .#POLO# > Support Heterogeneity In Networked Environments ~ ~ ###### I'll bet many of your 'cubicle-farm' inhabitants would enjoy booting up a nice PowerMac every day in place of the commoditized boxes that conitnue to plague American business like so many stubborn weeds. -- Brian Richardson Princeton Management Resources A Harte-Hanks, Inc. Company
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 23 Jan 1999 03:00:45 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <78be0t$nat$1@remarQ.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> In article <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >> That branding is of little consequence is a good sign of commoditization. > >[pause] > >No, I beg to differ. Branding is of utmost importance to most >consumer-level commodities, while features are of utmost importance to >non-commodities. Branding is a good sign of increased commoditization, >which is exactly what I have been arguing. Nonsense. Branding is opposed to commodization. A commodity is differentiated only by price; brands add other things, such as implied quality, a set of common features, etc. Companies will always strive to establish brands, because commodity markets are bad for profits. The ultimate in branding is proprietary goods that no one can copy or provide but you; eg, Mac hardware. The catch is defending that against other brands with other values, such as Intel hardware with "price/performance" and "compatability". >After all, we call them "PCs", not even "IBM-compatible PCs", these >days. Sign of disappearing brand, and decreasing commoditization as the >pace of technology and feature-addition increases. They're PCs, not Dells or Compaqs or Digitals or IBMs or Amadahls. The "IBM-Compatible" tag was actually a holdover from the days of the IBM brand, when it was important to do things exactly the same way as IBM. That this has been dropped indicates that brands are comparatively less important. Especially compared to the elder days, when there were Amigas, NeXTs, CP/M, and DOS stalking the land. >> >PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. >> >> Nope. They've become very commodity like, with individual manufacturers >> unable to significantly influence prices. > >I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with commodities. Price elactisity is a decent proxy for commodity status. If you up the price, what do people do? If they all defect to the other suppliers of wheat, you're probably in a commodity business, and your brand doesn't command much of a premium on the market. The decreasing margins of PC makers also point to commoditization of PCs. The price of no-name clones and brand names is converging. >> >They either are, or they aren't. The admission that there are markets >> >wherein PCs see specialization automatically contradicts the definition. 1. There are multiple markets within the PC industry. 2. There is a range of PC capabilities. At any given point in that range, PCs are mostly commodities. Want a 3D graphics PC? There are half a dozen options at most levels of performance. If you want X polygons/sec you can get cards from nVidia, voodoo, 3DLabs, or whatever. And multiple vendors can drop in the same video cards, so Compaq and Dell wind up having nearly identical machines. Lots of PCs use the same chipsets and motherboards. -- Don McGregor | I can't help it. I was born sneering. mcgredo@mbay.net |
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 22 Jan 1999 21:30:29 GMT Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc Message-ID: <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote in message <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com>... >Steven Kan wrote: > > >Not picky, except for speed, disk size, graphics acceleration, and >amount of memory. What you're saying is that brand is the only thing you >don't care about. > That branding is of little consequence is a good sign of commoditization. >Nope. I know what the definition of commodity is. The relevant entry >from Merriam-Webster's is > >"1:c: a mass-produced unspecialized product." > >PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. Nope. They've become very commodity like, with individual manufacturers unable to significantly influence prices. >> In most of the segments inhabited by readers of these newsgroups, I will >> agree that they're not commoditized. > >They either are, or they aren't. The admission that there are markets >wherein PCs see specialization automatically contradicts the definition. > Nope. Similar products can be split into commodities and non-commodities.
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:57:42 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78bks2$8m6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <36A8F6F1.6DBF@kan.org> In article <36A8F6F1.6DBF@kan.org>, steven@kan.org wrote: > Michael Peck wrote: > Crude oil, wheat, hogs, cattle, cotton and a bunch of other commodities > also have minimum specs and different price points for different levels > of quality. As sold in commodities markets, they show little or no specialization because they meet certification criteria. Those markets thus are not feature-driven, but instead demonstrate the homogenized properties of commoditized markets. > But once I have a set of vendors willing to supply those minimum specs, > it's price and delivery. There's not a whole lot else of meaning the > vendor can supply. Compaq and Sony at times have attempted to add > "internet buttons," a different desktop/shell, etc., but without much > success. You may be willing to set minimum specs for yourself; any computer that meets those specs may then be considered, by you, to be a commodity. That means nothing for the rest of us, each of whom have our own specialized requirements. In this, PCs are no different from any other type of computer. The PC market is not a commoditized market by any stretch of the imagination. > Speed--any vendor (Cyrix, AMD, Intel), so long as it runs Office at a > decent clip. HD--any vendor so long as it it's big enough. Graphics--any > vendor as long as it supports a large enough monitor. RAM--any vendor so > long is it's enough. Any vendor, any vendor, any vendor. That's a > commodity in my book. Not in everyone's, but it is in mine. That's fine. It doesn't make these things commodities. Your own choices are feature-driven, and my choices may be equally feature-driven, albeit with a different, specialized set of requirements. Therefore it is not a commodity market. Period. [cut] > Some are; some aren't. I know someone will argue that this is a > meaningless tautology, i.e. all things are commodities except for those > that aren't. I'll counter by arguing relative share. A very large > fraction of the computers are sold as commodities, which makes the > specialized segments the specific rather than the general case. What you said was that PCs are rapidly becoming commodities. If you had said something like "set-top boxes that access the Internet are becoming commodities", that would have been a different thing. I won't say whether I would agree with such a statement, but regardless, it's not what you said. The PC market is not a commodity market. It is highly specialized and highly feature-driven. > I disagree that either all computers are commodities or else none of > them is (I know, weird grammar, but gotta match numbers). That would be fine, but you yourself made that generalization in your remarks. If you'd like to make a new assertion, feel free. We can debate it on its own merits and leave this thread behind. > Some segments > allow for differentiation; some don't. Among the latter segments, a > reasonable number of specifications is sufficient to fulfill the needs > of most customers. Once those are met, price and delivery are most > important, and it's very difficult for any single vendor to charge more > for what is essentially the same thing. That is true for any market whatsoever. Value is value is value...is what people will pay for a thing. It's not up to you to decide "what is essentially the same thing". If the market, at large, treats things as having the same value (both specifically and monetarily), then all of those things can be considered a commodity. Contrary to your original statement, however there is no such homogeneity in the PC market. > Note that I'm not suggesting that this holds for anyone reading this > message. Most Usenet users are in segments that care an awful lot about > things that cubicle farm denizens don't (or can't!) make decisions on. > > Regarding the salt, the cost of producing salt doesn't drop every year > the way the cost of building computers does. And the reason for that? It is part and parcel the same issue. What drives the cost of a particular technology down year over year? If it is economies of scale, that is one thing. But if it is increasing demand for new technologies, that is a focus that cannot be characterized by "commoditization". MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36A966E0.E93924C5@visi.com> From: MDA <mallen@visi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> <36A8D1B9.9F5B4A40@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:06:29 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:05:02 CDT Michael Peck wrote: > > MDA wrote: > > > I'm sorry, but you come off as someone who may have at one time worked for > > Apple and now has a grudge. > > Not only that, but now I'm working as a paid agent for Microsoft. Which > means that you can safely dismiss everything I say, regardless of its > value. > > I guess when you hit too close to home, it's fair game for opponents to > start calling "traitor!" instead of arguing the logic. > > MJP Ah, the predictable reply MDA
Message-ID: <36A9380D.BC340746@nstar.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:46:37 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> <36A8D1B9.9F5B4A40@ericsson.com> <gG6q2.10273$XY6.272174@news.san.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William V. Campbell Jr. wrote: > Oh so that's what you are! Couldn't quite find the right word myself. > thanks. Mmmm-hmmm... > "The value of achievement lies in the achieving." > -Einstein- Sort of funny. He indicts himself, then quotes Einstein... MJP
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <Pobq2.21483$MW1.2964@news2.giganews.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:31:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:31:59 CDT On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:49:16 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >Peter wrote: >I don't care whose name is on my milk as long as it's 2% milkfat. I >don't care whose name is on my tuna fish. I don't care whose name is on >my stapler, or my pens, or my tape dispenser, or my coffee mug, or my >cereal bowl, or my plastic dishwares, or my notepad, or my socks. > >Those are commodities. Computers are not. Many varieties of computers are being constructed increasingly out of "commodity" components that are *relatively* substitutable. - I don't care which vendor's name is on my DIMMS so long as they fit on my motherboard. - I don't care what name is on the CPU so long as it works in my Slot 7 motherboard. - I don't care whose motherboard I get so long as it says "slot 7." - I don't much care whose video card I get so long as it fits in the AGP slot, and is decently supported by XFree86. Do these require more thought than comparing 2% milk to homogenized to skim to 1%? Sure. Are there differences in quality? Sure, much as I can choose from "generic" milk, goat milk, soy pseudo-milk, and premium milk from "organically fed cows." But they're all *much* closer to commodities than in ancient days when once I bought a machine from Tandy/Radio Shack, I'm locked into buying peripherals from them or a select group of other vendors, and can't use those peripherals with any other system. The Atari 8 bit systems were notable in this regard; the unique serial bus mandated buying an Atari modem, Atari cassette deck, Atari disk drive, and so forth. Early UNIX, minicomputer systems, and mainframes were similar. Once you picked a vendor for the computer, you'd be buying DEC RAM, DEC Disk, and even DEC backup tapes. The use of the PCI bus means that I have a *hope* of taking a SCSI card being sold for IA-32 systems, and using it with a PowerMac. My PPC UMAX's Ethernet card could also be used in an IA-32 system, which is a *big* change from yesteryear. They may not be as commoditized as pork bellies and wheat, but they're closer than they used to be... -- "And the next time you consider complaining that running Lucid Emacs 19.05 via NFS from a remote Linux machine in Paraguay doesn't seem to get the background colors right, you'll know who to thank." (By Matt Welsh) cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare? Date: 19 Jan 1999 20:19:14 GMT Organization: a guest of Shadow Island Games Message-ID: <782pc2$a3e@news3.newsguy.com> References: <782ils$c8m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > > What good do you expect out of accusing people? > > Amusement, mainly. Ah. So how can you justify wasting everyone's time and money on a cross-posted flamewar conducted for your amusement? -- g
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:15:39 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <782slt$1s5@shelob.afs.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <782on1$hrj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: >holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) wrote: >> znu wrote: >>> Because YellowBox apps written for OSX Server will work on OSX, >> >> Right. And monkeys might fly out of my butt. > >I see no reason for such skepticism. There was a relatively smooth >upgrade path between the various versions of NeXTSTEP and >OPENSTEP, on which OSXS is based. Going from OPENSTEP to >OSXS was more of a jump, but most apps that ran on OPENSTEP >seem to still be around, so it clearly was doable. Going to OSX, >while non-trivial because of the loss of DPS, should be equally doable. The smooth *user* upgrade path from NS to OS was due to the inclusion of libraries in OS that allowed NS binaries to run without recompiling. There was NOT a smooth upgrade path for *developers*, which is why so few programs ever made it to OS/NT. Precisely because DPS will not exist in OSX -- even as legacy libraries -- I would NOT expect a smooth transition from OSXS to OSX. It is almost a certainty that OSXS binaries will not run on OSX. That means developers will have no choice but to recompile (and possibly rewrite portions of) their apps. Greg
From: ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:40:15 GMT Message-ID: <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:47:52 +0100, "Sascha Bohnenkamp" <bohnenkamp@mevis.de> wrote: >*snip* >>Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be wildly popular and cause more >>people than ever to "spend a little more" for the Macintosh hardware, and >>be so damn reliable that even linux users will gasp at it's >>"stayupability" > > >face it: the next os was never as stable as linux is now ... and you not >have smp ... what kind of os should this be? Thus speaks the voice of fanaticism.... :( You obviously either have never run NS/OS at all, or if so, you're determined to not let the experience stand in the way of your prejudices. I can't speak for NS 1.x/2.x, never having used it, however, V3.x upwards has, IME at least, been *the* most stable OS I've ever used (barring old OSs like DOS ;-) ) and certainly even now is still very much more stable than Linux. As for SMP - well, Linux's SMP support so far is less than impressive and no better than NT's (though I'm sure in time it will improve vastly). But quite besides that, just how relevant is SMP support anyway outside the enterprise server, at least, in the present? Dual (let alone more) CPU Intel boxes are for the present still very much a rarity, even amongst power users. This may well change in 6/12s, 1 yr, 2yrs' time or whenever, but until dual or more CPU systems become more widespread, SMP support is mostly of purely academic interest. Ric
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 23 Jan 1999 15:10:45 GMT "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: > >Eric A. Dubiel wrote in message <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net>... >>For disbelievers, check it out...OpenStep running around in the wild... :) >> >>http://gnustep.current.nu/screenshots.html >>http://pweb.netcom.com/~far/far.html >> >>and more info at http://www.gnustep.org > > >The window manager in those screenshots is Window Maker, I do believe. Apropos what exactly? Are you one of those people who are still under the strange (yet common) misapprehension that GNUstep is a window manager? - It isn't. Perhaps you think that the 'Yellow Box' is a window manager too? Window Maker is the official GNUstep window manager - but GNUstep does not restrict itsself to any one window manager. For instance, the GNUstep xraw backend library draws it's menus itsself - those aren't provided by Window Maker, though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X applications, so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps.
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 23 Jan 1999 15:37:55 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <78cqcj$f64$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <782on1$hrj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782slt$1s5@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >Precisely because DPS will not exist in OSX -- even as legacy >libraries -- I would NOT expect a smooth transition from OSXS to OSX. >It is almost a certainty that OSXS binaries will not run on OSX. That >means developers will have no choice but to recompile (and possibly >rewrite portions of) their apps. > "Almost a certainty!" I can't hear it any more! You write as you never developed and worked with NeXT, but you were one of the first guys in the market (and always very sceptic as I remember). Anyway, _nobody_ can tell what's happening with MacOX-X in "late 1999". Even premium developers don't know and so even Apple engineers don't know. All you know is: it will happen somehow. DPS is always mentioned as a "major" part of OpenStep, however in real life you have to notice that it's influence is very little. With the exception of graphic optimization and hacks it had nearly no influence on application development. Just analyse the many free available source codes. Don't be so negativ! Let's talk about positive things: the Apple marketing strategy smoothly brings MacOS people to the Unix world! With MacOS-X it never was as easy for Apple advocates to get contact with such a powerful system. When the first people notice the power of MacOS-X (which isn't based on MacOS features) they will get hungry for these features in a use base system MacOS-X. Of course all the NeXT advocates already know this power, and fear to loose their NeXT-religion, but it will be replaced by a new one. I believe: if MacOS-X Server will be accepted as workgroup or small-company servers, the run for MacOS-X will be even higher. Many greetings, Bernhard -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.leo.org/~scholz/ Peanuts FTP Admin http://www.peanuts.org/ scholz@peanuts.org
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 23 Jan 99 09:51:07 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2CF4C15-10E2A@206.165.43.171> References: <369ae20e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Richard Frith-Macdonald <richard@brainstorm.co.uk> said: >joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >>This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box >>says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost >>universally ignored it. > >Well, if the owner of the technology won't sell it to anyone there's not much >point developing for it is there? >Unfortunately, there has never really been anything Apple could do to >persuade >people they were really going to sell and support YB. REally? Howabout providing a seeding of MacOS X server for developers that doesn't cost an arm and a leg? Howabout following through with the promise to provide educational institutes with a version that reflects the licensing costs for Apple rather than the retail price? Etc? There's lots of things that they could do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:03:24 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78cvco$7q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> <78be0t$nat$1@remarQ.com> In article <78be0t$nat$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > In article <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com>, > Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> That branding is of little consequence is a good sign of commoditization. > > > >[pause] > Nonsense. Listen to what you're saying. > Branding is opposed to commodization. A commodity is > differentiated only by price; brands add other things, such as > implied quality, a set of common features, etc. Companies will > always strive to establish brands, because commodity markets are > bad for profits. They establish brands because brands help sell goods. That is all. Commodity markets are bad for profits because they decrease potential for differentiation, that is all. You're mixing the contexts in the hope of making a correlation that simply doesn't exist. Quite the contrary, brands become important, as I have said repeatedly, only when feature-based differentiation is more difficult. > The ultimate in branding is proprietary goods that no one can > copy or provide but you; eg, Mac hardware. Precisely. You read my original post, in which I claimed that Apple was attempting to commoditize computer hardware, and that they stand in contrast to the vastly-more-successful PC market. Apparently, you got the point. > The catch is > defending that against other brands with other values, such > as Intel hardware with "price/performance" and "compatability". Precisely. I claimed that PC markets are more focused on features like "price/performance" and "compatibility" than on brands. You're getting the point. > They're PCs, not Dells or Compaqs or Digitals or IBMs or Amadahls. As I said, brand is less important than features in the non-commodity PC market. By contrast, the Macintosh market couldn't stand clones because Apple built brand while the cloners built features. The result was Apple's loss. Therefore Apple is attempting to build an isolated commodity market around the "Apple" brand. By building such an isolated market it can use incompatibility to protect profit margins. > The "IBM-Compatible" tag was actually a holdover from the days > of the IBM brand, when it was important to do things exactly the > same way as IBM. I can't believe there's any more to argue. You've just said that during the "branded" days of PC hardware, machines were more homogenous ("exactly the same way as IBM"). As the brand disappeared, specialization increased (and therefore, commoditization decreased). You're making my point for me. > That this has been dropped indicates that > brands are comparatively less important. Especially compared to > the elder days, when there were Amigas, NeXTs, CP/M, and DOS > stalking the land. The context was "PCs". Are you broadening the scope now? > Price elactisity is a decent proxy for commodity status. If you up > the price, what do people do? If they all defect to the other > suppliers of wheat, you're probably in a commodity business, and > your brand doesn't command much of a premium on the market. Brand value and feature value are unrelated as they affect consumer behavior. Either one can raise the value of your product in the public's eyes. "Upping the price" can cause defections no matter what market you're in. > The decreasing margins of PC makers also point to commoditization > of PCs. The price of no-name clones and brand names is converging. True, both are signs, in and of themselves, of commoditization. There are other effects present in the PC market which amply offset these trends. There is nothing linear or even 2-dimensional about market dynamics. > 1. There are multiple markets within the PC industry. Then state your specificity, rather than broadly saying that the PC market shows commoditization. That was *your* claim. *You* back it up, don't quibble with me. > 2. There is a range of PC capabilities. At any given point in that > range, PCs are mostly commodities. Want a 3D graphics PC? There > are half a dozen options at most levels of performance. If you > want X polygons/sec you can get cards from nVidia, voodoo, 3DLabs, > or whatever. I rest my case, then. I'd like to know how this wide range of capabilities can be lumped together as "commodities". > And multiple vendors can drop in the same video cards, > so Compaq and Dell wind up having nearly identical machines. Lots > of PCs use the same chipsets and motherboards. You can find two different make/model PCs which both use Abit BH6 motherboards, Western Digital hard drives, RIVA TNT video cards, and internal Iomega Zip drives? No, take it back -- I want an LS-120, instead of the Zip. I doubt it. Pick up your local Computer Shopper, make a list of requirements for individual components, and then find out how many manufacturers fit your spec. Compare prices and report the difference. It's easy to do; every smart shopper does it. See what you find. Now ask yourself why so many people simply build the computer themselves, preferring to get exactly the features they desire. For pity's sake, there are hundreds of manufacturers selling *cases* alone. "Commodities"? I don't think so. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:28:51 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78d0sb$8tk$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <Pobq2.21483$MW1.2964@news2.giganews.com> In article <Pobq2.21483$MW1.2964@news2.giganews.com>, cbbrowne@hex.net wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:49:16 -0600, Michael Peck > Many varieties of computers are being constructed increasingly out of > "commodity" components that are *relatively* substitutable. To some extent one would hope that this is always true. It's called compatibility, and it doesn't necessarily indicate "commoditization". If you think that it is impossible to respect standards while providing innovation and increased featuresets, you are reporting precisely the same mindset the Macintosh market professes. I don't want to put words in your mouth. If that's not what you mean, say so. The statement in question is that "PCs are increasingly commoditized". If you are arguing that that is true, we must compare your points to some time in the past. Let's do that. > - I don't care which vendor's name is on my DIMMS so long as they fit on > my motherboard. Yet your motherboard may have two, three, four, or even more DIMM slots on it. Moreover, DIMMs from different manufacturers (used in the same motherboard) will show decreased performance against same-manufacturer DIMMs used together. > - I don't care what name is on the CPU so long as it works in my Slot 7 > motherboard. Yet there appears to be a market for a much greater variety of processors *now* than there ever has been. There has been a staggering proliferation of both chip-design centers and manufacturers for chips in the PC market. This trend isn't driven by brand, but rather by features like price and performance. There are hundreds of Web sites devoted to reporting on the differing uses, specifics, and performance numbers of different PC main-CPUs. You may not care, but evidently there is a rather large market out there that *does* care. Is this a sign of increasing or decreasing commoditization? > - I don't care whose motherboard I get so long as it says "slot 7." And yet, once upon a time, *all* PC motherboards used the same method of affixing a main CPU to the PCB. Nowadays, there are Socket 7, Slot 1, Slot A, PGA370, and likely more to come. Each one has different features necessary to accomodate the various chipsets for which they were designed. What's more, even if you find yourself a "socket 7" motherboard, if it lacks 100 MHz front-side bus capability, you will be unable to run faster AMD chips in that board. You may also lack an AGP for your newer video card. You may have to use jumpers to set your CPU speed and voltage, rather than the "Soft-Switch" in my Abit's BIOS. You may have SCSI onboard, or you may not. You may not have enough PCI/ISA slots to accomodate your expansion needs. You may not care, but there is a large market out there that *does* care. Is this a sign of increasing or decreasing commoditization? > - I don't much care whose video card I get so long as it fits in the AGP > slot, and is decently supported by XFree86. Again, you don't care, but I do. What does it matter that you don't care? My AGP card has excellent performance and TV-out capabilities. My AGP card has enough memory to run high-resolution graphics at 32-bit depths. My AGP card has a fast enough RAMDAC to feed large monitors at high resolutions and high color depths at high refresh rates. My AGP card may shortly be supported by hardware-accelerated X servers with OpenGL capabilities. > Do these require more thought than comparing 2% milk to homogenized to > skim to 1%? Sure. They don't even compare. > Are there differences in quality? Sure, much as I > can choose from "generic" milk, goat milk, soy pseudo-milk, and premium > milk from "organically fed cows." And yet, I don't say that all milk is a commodity. I say that pasteurized, homogenized cow milk is a commodity. > But they're all *much* closer to commodities than in ancient days when > once I bought a machine from Tandy/Radio Shack, I'm locked into buying > peripherals from them or a select group of other vendors, and can't use > those peripherals with any other system. You've confused "proprietary" with "non-commodity". Sorry, but there's no commonality, here. I would argue that Tandy/Radio Shack computers were commodities *because* they were proprietary. Can you tell the difference between one TRS-80 Model 3 and another? Doubtful. > The Atari 8 bit systems were > notable in this regard; the unique serial bus mandated buying an Atari > modem, Atari cassette deck, Atari disk drive, and so forth. Making Atari systems commodities. > Early UNIX, > minicomputer systems, and mainframes were similar. Once you picked a > vendor for the computer, you'd be buying DEC RAM, DEC Disk, and even DEC > backup tapes. Those tapes, RAM chips, and disks became commodities in their own markets. If there had been feature-differentiation between them, that would have been a different thing. But they were sold around a single brand. > The use of the PCI bus means that I have a *hope* of taking a SCSI card > being sold for IA-32 systems, and using it with a PowerMac. That would be compatibility, not commoditization. Commoditization would mean that all compatible SCSI cards had the same features. That is clearly not the case. > My PPC > UMAX's Ethernet card could also be used in an IA-32 system, which is a > *big* change from yesteryear. Again, you're making this ridiculous analogy between compatibility and commoditization. Regardless of compatibility, are 10BaseT ethernet cards and 100BaseTX ethernet cards equivalent? Clearly, the answer is no. > They may not be as commoditized as pork bellies and wheat, but they're > closer than they used to be... No, they are much, much further from commodities than they have ever been. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk (Anthony Ord) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:14:43 GMT Message-ID: <36b1db15.2047391@news.demon.co.uk> References: <suvidya-2812982025030001@11.newark-03-04rs.nj.dial-access.att.net> <914950452snz@vision25.demon.co.uk> <76bgha$a1o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <369aa461.9988331@news.demon.co.uk> <77h034$bg6$15@blue.hex.net> <36a33112.14439385@news.demon.co.uk> <77ma74$usm$20@blue.hex.net> <36a3b9a3.11756130@news.demon.co.uk> <slrn7a1v2h.scd.jedi@dementia.mishnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:53:37 -0800, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: >On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:07:33 GMT, Anthony Ord <nws@rollingthunder.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>On 15 Jan 1999 02:47:00 GMT, cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher >>Browne) wrote: <snip> >>>Rumor has it that Leafnode has been modified by some so that it can do >>>this. That makes that version of Leafnode a feasible option to let >>>people use whatever news reader they like without transport issues >>>having to intrude *too* much. >> >>Alas, that wouldn't work. It would still entail me spending time >>online selecting threads. Look at it this way; if the proxy gets the > > ...just like the 'using Agent to keep connection time down' > problem would. I don't understand this. I select which threads I am going to read when Agent is off-line. This means I can spend as long as I want doing it. >All that's required is a way inside the reader > (or even outside) to tell whatever transport agent is being > used that it's time to go get the tagged messages. It would have to be inside the reader, because how else would anything know what was tagged. Indeed, if the newsreader wasn't designed to be an off-line one, it wouldn't even tag threads. This then brings the transport details onto the desktop, which (I still maintain) isn't a bad thing. >>threads immediately, it means I'm on line. If it does not, my >>newsreader blocks until a timeout, then fails. >> >>Having the 'transport details' on my news browser is the only feasible >>way of doing it. Besides, the different between off-line and on-line >>reading are blatantly obvious to the user anyway, so encapsulating >>that in the reader isn't a big crime, like some would suggest. > > Sure, offline reading is a whole helluva lot faster. Is it? I find I spend more time getting the same information, simply because of the greater number of passes that I must do. Admittedly all the on-line reading I do comes across ethernet... Regards Anthony -- =============================================================== |'All kids love log!' | | Ren & Stimpy | ===============================================================
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server Date: 23 Jan 1999 10:57:32 -0800 Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy Message-ID: <78d62s$8t8$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <77nsc9$chr$1@remarQ.com> <36a0b7c3.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <77un0c$5if$4@news.panix.com> Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net In article <77un0c$5if$4@news.panix.com>, Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote: >That was decided for security reasons. Were those security reasons just related to protection from hostile applets downloaded over the net, or are the application security concerns, too? --Tim Smith e were only two C books on the shelves: the original from K&R, and the Harbison and Steele book. Both were excellent. Now there are a zillion C books on the shelf, and maybe three or four are excellent. It was significantly easier for a newcomer to find a good C book back when there were only two books than it is now. --Tim Smith
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:40:16 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78d8iv$e7i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> <78be0t$nat$1@remarQ.com> <78cvco$7q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <78cvco$7q5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: > In article <78be0t$nat$1@remarQ.com>, > mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > > In article <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com>, > > Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: [cut] > True, both are signs, in and of themselves, of commoditization. There are > other effects present in the PC market which amply offset these trends. There > is nothing linear or even 2-dimensional about market dynamics. More specifically and to the point, while either of these things could be taken as *signs* of commoditizations, there is sufficient evidence to believe that they are the results of completely other factors. For instance, decreasing margins may simply symbolize a highly-competitive market. This is trivially demonstrated by the tremendous proliferation of manufacturers building and selling wares to the market. Moreover, research and development budgets (which are a healthy chunk of overall cost in this feature-driven market) are increasing, even while the market size (which decreases per-unit R&D costs by unit duplication) increases. The proliferation of *design centers* in the tech industry, therefore, demonstrates both a clear reason behind decreasing margins and a shining indicator of a non-commodities market. One would expect research and development to decrease steadily as a percentage of overall market size, in a commodities market. It appears that the personal computing sector has experienced quite the opposite. Price convergence is likewise an indicator of a highly-competitive market, in this case. The fact that brand-name sales are increasing as a function of "no-name" sales could be taken either way, unless examined more closely. In the case of the PC market, the reasons for declining "no-name" sales are associated with quality and support. No single or duple vendor(s) is (are) achieving dominance (which is what one expects in a commodity-driven market marked strongly by "branding"); rather, well-established vendors with reputations for quality are of great number, and have rather equitably split the market into a highly diverse buying public. Quality and reputation may be considered features of the products they sell, rather than properties of the brand. Compare to the "cola" market, wherein the vast majority of the market is split between Coca-Cola on the one hand, and Pepsi-Cola on the other. The PC market shows a movement toward brand-names only for the sake of quality and support, not for the sake of brand-loyalty. Look at the miseries of seemingly-invincible brand-names who failed to meet quality- and feature-based requirements, brands like Packard-Bell and AST Computers. The evidence for this, by way of comparison to the Macintosh market, is clear. Remember Apple crowing about 98% customer loyalty a few years back? You tell me what that says about "branding" in the two markets, in contrast. Customer loyalty in the PC market is drastically lower. Do you doubt the comparative discretion of the PC buyer? Explain the hundreds of Web sites devoted to reviewing computer-related products. There is no single "Consumer Reports" for the PC sector; such a thing would hopelessly gloss over the hundreds of variables involved in PC buying decisions. Simply buying a mouse involves many decisions: scroll wheel? cordless? two or three (or even four) buttons? trackball? if so, thumb-ball or index-finger-ball? comfortable shape? Even these seemingly-trivial items are nowhere near commoditized. Mac advocates (and I am not accusing you, specifically, of such a horror) would like to paint the PC market as a commoditized market of, nevertheless, incompatible choices. Quite the opposite is true: the PC market is an amazingly compatible market of utterly non-commoditized choices. Lest you think otherwise, talk to your Sun sales rep and ask about your choices of supported video output. Such equipment is highly commoditized, since feature differences among CX, GX, ZX, and whatever-X video cards are nearly non-existent. Yet there are striking incompatibilities based on your choice of platform: sun4c, sun4u, sun4m, sun4u (PCI), and on and on. You want hardware-accelerated OpenGL? Creator and Creator 3D. That's a wrap. Don't even get me started on buying a mouse for a SPARCstation. I wonder how you explain Apple's move to USB. "Access to a wide range of PC hardware" is for the sake of access to more brands of the same commodity? I don't think so. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:45:33 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78d8sr$eah$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <36A7A2FA.ABF19E6F@exu.ericsson.se> <36A80EE8.F13FA09C@visi.com> <36A8D1B9.9F5B4A40@ericsson.com> <36A966E0.E93924C5@visi.com> In article <36A966E0.E93924C5@visi.com>, mallen@visi.com wrote: > Michael Peck wrote: > > I guess when you hit too close to home, it's fair game for opponents to > > start calling "traitor!" instead of arguing the logic. > > > > MJP > > Ah, the predictable reply Well, yes. Emotion opposed to logic appears to be a rather common problem for your side of things. I won't hesitate to point that out, no matter how "predictable" it seems to you. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:34:02 GMT Organization: MSI Networks, Inc. (using Airnews.net!) Message-ID: <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> Abuse-Reports-To: Report improper postings to abuse at msinets dot com NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.iadfw.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Jan 23 15:20:40 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 23 Jan 1999 16:51:07 GMT, ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), > >But essentially, if MacOS X and Linux are based on relatively the same >kernel (or are very closely related), and Linux apps should be easily >recompileable for OSX, then what exactly is the nature of MacOS' >relationship to Linux, both upon its introduction later this year, and in >future? > >In other words, is a convergence possible, or at least can running Linux >and MacOS X one day be accomplished without rigid partitions, 100% >separation, etc.? > >Considering that MacOS usually costs about $100, which is a heap less than >most commercial applications (meaning, we users spend more than that on >two good games), and PowerMacs can run Linux just fine, then what would be >Apple's motivation to promote Linux and work to meld MacOS X into a >deluxe, user-friendly Linux shell that runs on Apple hardware? > >I can't help but believe, from the writing on the wall, that this is where >things are heading, unless MS runs some sort of preemptive strike, which >is doubtful given their overwhelming investment in NT. <snip> >If you're Steve Jobs and you realize that your main competitor is >lumbering under 50 million lines of code while trying to work out >Machiavellian strategies to defeat Linux, and Apple's OS is a close >relative to one of the fastest growing OS movements, one of the most >stable OSes out there ... wouldn't you entertain this scenario? Couldn't >Apple make an absolute killing this way? That is something that has been talked and talked and talked and talked and talked and talked and talked about. But if anything, it appears as though Apple is less inclined (killing OSX for x86) rather than more inclined to got that way, despite the growing mindshare of Linux. Despite all that, I feel there is still a glimmer of hope. Just like how the Net suddenly became very very popular among some circles right before Mosaic/Netscape came out, so, too, it appears as though it's pretty inevitable that Linux will one day have a newbie-friendly install and GUI. Right now, I'd say the only way Apple would step up to the plate would be for the iCEO to sell the company (to 3com?, Sun?) and let them open source the upper levels of MOSX (with a Java 2 like license, maybe). It's not so much having it run on Apple hardware as it is making the GUI run on, well, x86 stuff or StrongARM. That's when you could see a fundamental shift in computing. It's the Holy Grail of home computing (along with broadband access to the Net). Alas, this is the same company that made THE FUCKIN BIGGEST MISTAKE in software history--not licensing the MacOS a la Microsoft. So while we could all enter the next century running a home area network "amazingly great" GUI on an "best of breed" Unix OS on our StrongARM based home server for about $500 bucks, it appears as though we'll be pretty much where we are now only with possibily two M$'s (OS and apps). In fact, it's looking like IBM might be more likely to give Linux a commercial newbie friendly install/GUI (via bits of OS/2) than Apple is. It's sad. Really sad. -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: 23 Jan 1999 21:54:28 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 1999 21:54:28 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.6 (sun4m)) In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > Alas, this is the same company that made THE F***** BIGGEST MISTAKE in > software history--not licensing the MacOS a la Microsoft. So while we > could all enter the next century running a home area network > "amazingly great" GUI on an "best of breed" Unix OS on our StrongARM > based home server for about $500 bucks, it appears as though we'll be > pretty much where we are now only with possibily two M$'s (OS and > apps). I oughta mention here that the StrongARM has no floating point processor, no superscalar mechanism, and relatively unsophisticated pipelining. Sean, who's typing this from a Newton MessagePad 2000, which uses a StrongArm...
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Message-ID: <3ctq2.259$eA.65@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:47:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:47:11 PDT Organization: @Home Network In <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:- > Window Maker is the official GNUstep window manager - but GNUstep does not > restrict itsself to any one window manager. For instance, the GNUstep xraw > backend library draws it's menus itsself - those aren't provided by Window Maker, > though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X applications, > so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps.- Actually Window Maker doesn't create menus for applications, it only has the root menu, which of course looks NeXT-ish. On the other hand, every single X11 window manager uses a root menu, so that isn't anything extraordinary. Alfredo Kojima, the creator and lead maintainer for Window Maker believes that creating menus for applications is outside the intended functionality of a window manager, and I agree with him. GNUstep applications will use traditional NeXT-style app menus, non-GNUstep apps will not, but at least Window Maker will provide them with a NeXT-ish titlebar, and depending on the library the app uses (Xaw, gtk, tk) there are ways to make your non-GNUstep X apps "look" more NeXT-ish.
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 23 Jan 1999 15:18:34 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Sascha Bohnenkamp" <bohnenkamp@mevis.de> wrote: >*snip* >>Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be wildly popular and cause more >>people than ever to "spend a little more" for the Macintosh hardware, >>and be so damn reliable that even linux users will gasp at it's >>"stayupability" > > >face it: the next os was never as stable as linux is now ... and you >not have smp ... what kind of os should this be? > Ha? Are you choking or just silly? I believe you are running after the hype. Linux has one big advantage --- and it's the disadvantage, too: too many developements in parallel. And it has a lot of hype! Too much hype! (Just think about the "cluster contest" which wasn't a cluster in any way in the usual meaning of the word) SMP isn't stable, the whole Linux isn't stable in any way -- but the fixing rate is high. On the other hand you know nearly everything about the bugs in the NeXT OS and you can live with them. On Linux you can never be sure, whether there is a new bug in the kernel or not. So to get a really stable Linux system you need to go with a proven kernel-version and distribution and before using new features you have to wait until they are tested by the community. And I fall down on the floor laughin to notice that: * Linux doesn't recognize memory >64MB until 2 month ago (kernel >2.0.35) * Linux Lilo booter always fails if the boot devices change * there is no Linux distribution standard, so you have a bunch of different Linux systems. * distribution packages are incompatible too The Linux people do have a lot to learn from user friendly Unix Systems, and the most user friendly Unix-System I know of was/is NeXT/Apples Mach/BSD implementation with the NeXT/Apple tools. On the other hand: they learn fast. Very fast and they run after every new standard and feature. This is very good, because it gives you the most out of it --- on the other hand, sometimes they forget quality over feature quantity. Greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/~scholz/ Peanuts FTP Admin http://www.peanuts.org/ scholz@peanuts.org
From: "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:49:19 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 00:50:36 GMT Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>... >"John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: >>The window manager in those screenshots is Window Maker, I do believe. > >Apropos what exactly? >Are you one of those people who are still under the strange (yet common) >misapprehension that GNUstep is a window manager? - It isn't. >Perhaps you think that the 'Yellow Box' is a window manager too? Perhaps you should read my sentence again. I was stating what I believed the WM to be, for those that didn't know... I know exactly what GNUstep and YB are, but thanks for playing... >though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X applications, >so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps. Have you ever used WM??? Apparently not... WM does NOT provide any menus for applications, nor is there any intention for it to do so... It does provide a root menu that is in the NeXT style, though. The next time you decide to have an attitude, try to make sure you know everything you're talking about to begin with...
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots Date: 23 Jan 1999 20:16:52 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <78dsa4$bb$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 01:17:05 GMT In article <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com>, "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: > Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message > <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>... > >"John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: > >>The window manager in those screenshots is Window Maker, I do believe. > >Are you one of those people who are still under the strange (yet common) > >misapprehension that GNUstep is a window manager? - It isn't. > Perhaps you should read my sentence again. I was stating what I believed > the WM to be, for those that didn't know... To be honest, I interpreted your words the same way Richard did, but I wasn't sure if I was reading too much between the lines so I didn't comment. The confusion between GNUstep and WindowMaker is very common, and it's easy to imagine someone saying, "Hey, that's just a screenshot of WindowMaker, what's so special about that?".
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:42:04 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <785ija$a7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <780em3$i8a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan19095254@slave.doubleu.com> <784nu7$78i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7ac9n4.r9k.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com wrote: > MacOSX Server is used literally as a server. > > "MacOSX Interim-Development-Workstation" would be used as one of two things: > 1) A command-line Unix box with access to MacOS GUI programs. > {e.g. research scientists} > 2) Reliable development tool, for either Yellow Box or MacOS. > (A MacOS crash crashes the BlueBox, not the whole machine). And also (3) a powerful end-user workstation, using YB apps as well as MacOS apps through bluebox. At least, that's how I would use it. > I do supsect that the YB API's will change somewhat by MacOS X. So what? All APIs change over time. I'd rather use the available APIs now and worry about the changes when they're here, rather than waiting forever for the 'perfect' API, which will never come anyway. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Actual size of OSX-S installed base Date: 24 Jan 1999 01:55:34 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7akvcm.ibq.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901151654070.24182-100000@mail.his.com> <YEto2.40$F86.375231@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <77un0c$5if$2@news.panix.com> <slrn7ab219.o66.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36A5AD78.AB2D3BAA@nstar.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 01:55:34 GMT On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:18:32 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: :Matt Kennel wrote: :> <Re: OS X on Intel> :> It makes much more sense for Apple to make Intel-based PC's which are :> designed to work right with OSX. But then, what would their advantage be :> be over the G3? A native-speed version of Virtual PC? It would be nice :> if such a thing existed, but I haven't heard of it being there. :> :> The disadvantage would be bad PR to the effect of "Apple is :> capitulating, it's only a matter of time before they give up MacOS and :> go Wintel like the rest of the sane world." : :Why wouldn't Apple benefit from an "astonishing and heroic job by many :driver programmers worldwide" with OS X Server on a platform besides the :Macintosh? The existing Linux programmers are ideologically motivated. I don't see any similar outpouring for Mac OS X on Intel unless it were fully open source, and then I don't see why Apple would go for that, though it would be cool for people. :It's ironic, you're saying "Apple can succeed on Mac hardware, only vast :volunteer effort made Linux drivers successful", but it seems to me that :Apple *could* use volunteers but is doing its very best to prevent that, :from crazy hardware to inexplicable software strategies. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: Kalle Näslund <m98kalle@ibg.uu.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:33:29 +0000 Organization: juppu kanuppu Message-ID: <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Bernhard Scholz wrote: Lots of text removed >And I fall down on the floor laughin to notice that: >* Linux doesn't recognize memory >64MB until 2 month ago (kernel >2.0.35) This is incorect, as you probably know, the kernel didnt do this automatic, you had to append a line saying mem=128mb, if you had 128mb of ram. the way you write makes it sound like the kernel coulden use more than 64mb, witch it of cuarse have been able to before 2.0.35 >* Linux Lilo booter always fails if the boot devices change >* there is no Linux distribution standard, so you have a bunch > of different Linux systems. Variation promotes evolution =) >* distribution packages are incompatible too have you ever used ALIEN, a program tha converts the different package formats ? I do agree that it is sad that there are several package formats but this dont present a real problem, first you can get nearly all programs in all used package formats, and if not you can use alien. >The Linux people do have a lot to learn from user friendly Unix >Systems, and the most user friendly Unix-System I know of was/is >NeXT/Apples Mach/BSD implementation with the NeXT/Apple tools. > >On the other hand: they learn fast. Very fast and they run >after every new standard and feature. This is very good, because >it gives you the most out of it --- on the other hand, sometimes >they forget quality over feature quantity. > >Greetings, > > Bernhard. > >-- >Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/~scholz/ >Peanuts FTP Admin http://www.peanuts.org/ >scholz@peanuts.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:32:44 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:31:54 -0600 Stephen E. Halpin <seh@quadrizen.com> wrote: > On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:36:40 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin > E. Thorne) wrote: > > >Stephen E. Halpin <seh@quadrizen.com> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:36:15 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin > >> E. Thorne) wrote: > >> > >> >Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > >> > > >> >> "Stephen E. Halpin" wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > <snip> > >> >> > >Mac OS X is not "vaporous," it just hasn't been released. It exists. > >> >> > >Vaporware is software that has been announced before it has been > >> >> > >created. > >> >> > > >> >> > MacOS X is vapor. It hasnt been completely developed yet, > >> >> > so by definition it cannot be known what will and will not > >> >> > be in the first shipping release. > >> > > >> >Mac OS X is NOT vapor. I repeat, vaporware is software that is > >> >announced *BEFORE* it is created. Mac OS X DOES NOT fit that > >> >description. Not complete != does not exist. > >> > >> You can repeat it until your are blue in the face, but it doesnt > >> change the reality. If it isnt shipping, its vaporware. > > > >Wrong. If it doesn't exist it's vaporware. > > Your face is turning a dark shade of G3. Lets introduce you to the > rest of the world, so you can see how the term has been commonly used > for nearly two decades: As I have been around longer than two decades, I don't require you to introduce me to anything that's happened in the last two. People have commonly misused words, and if that goes on long enough, the misuse becomes the correct use, by consensus. [snip of many definitions of vaporware, that show it's possible to find only that which supports you, if that's all you look for.] > > > >Much of Copland has been shipped as Mac OS upgrades. Copland was never > >used to freeze the Mac market the way that M$ has frozen markets with > >their true vaporware: products that weren't even conceived until a > >competitor shipped the equivalent. > > This right here is your problem. You are trying to redefine > vaporware to differentiate Apple from Microsoft. No, that's your problem. Copland has *shipped*, yet you still equate it to M$ vaporware. Apple has historically been very close-mouthed about their software plans. Until recently, the complaint was that Apple gave *no* advance information, not that they produce vaporware. Most of what you're trying to fault Apple with is in reality third-party gossip. > >> which was killed outright, and MacOS X Server, > >> which wont support either non-G3 PowerMacs or Intel boxes, which > > > >That doesn't make it vapor. > > It does to any developer who has been building product around > these platforms, and to all the customers of all the products > being written for MacOS X Server. Care to name any of these developers, or their products, or the customers who are waiting for Mac OS X server? BTW, I saw a blurb in InfoWorld last week that said Mac OS X Server has been *released.* > >> Apples early press releases indicated would be supported. As for > >> anyone who believed it was going to be available commercially a > >> year ago as was originally announced, they have been looking at a > >> whole year of vapor, because vapor is all they have had to plan > >> with and vapor is all they have to deploy. > > > >They have been waiting for the product to be released. If they were > >waiting for vapor, they'd be waiting for a product that Apple hasn't > >even started. There have been releases to developers, so they've had > >more than just vapor to work with. > > > >> To the commercial > >> consumer, it still doesnt exist. > > > >That's still not the definition of vaporware. I've noticed the > >tendency of some people to creatively redefine words to make it look as > >if everyone does the same things Microsoft does. > > No, you are clearly redefining the term to try to make someone > else not look like Microsoft. Again, look at the list above > to see how the word is commonly used by the rest of the world. No, you are redefining the term, and that's amazing after all the definitions you posted. All of them were based on software *not* shipping. It has shipped to developers. > >> The fact that there has been so > >> much debate here about whether it will even include BlueBox and > >> whether the Intel port really has been dropped should highlight > >> these points. > > > >That just highlights how many people gossip about things they have no > >direct knowledge of. > > And why dont they have direct knowledge? Because there is no > shipping product for them to analyze. No, because they're not the people who receive the developers release. In most cases they're not even the people who have the slightest thing to do with software development. > As it stands, Apples > recent press releases state platform limitations which contradict > earlier press releases, and until it ships, they have the ability > to keep changing it. Until a stake is has been placed in the > ground, all you have are promises and rumors - vapor. In other words they've become like Microsoft, but to a much smaller degree. I've followed the announcements on Apple's OS developments from the beginning. They've always said that Rhapsody/NeXT development was to be a parallel development to Mac OS development, and it has been. Mainstream users are to look to Mac OS 8, 8.5, 9, etc., until the Rhapsody/NeXT improvements are melded in. In other words, by the Mac OS for the Mac OS, not for NeXT. In all my visits to www.apple.com, I have yet to see them promoting the purchase of a Mac with other than the current release of Mac OS. [snip] > >Remove the spamblock to reply to me. > > -Steve -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dm3icz.smarnd13y0moyN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <macghod-1501991903480001@ts009d01.lap-ca.concentric.net> <1dlp3fe.zzacwjyhu84jN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <EdWn2.4455$xq4.1140@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> <0z7o2.4532$xq4.1236@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:33:18 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:32:24 -0600 Michael Lankton <satan@hell.home.com> wrote: > In <1dlpw9f.1nhls041tvnbfvN@pppsl1509.chicagonet.net> Edwin E. Thorne > wrote:- > > for. The Alpha has the fastest clock speed, and can run Unix and NT, > > yet it is not the dominate processor. Perhaps you'd like to explain > > why? > > Alpha has better floating point performance than any of the mentioned > platforms. Digital was not as successful as Sun at selling their cpu, and > their os (Digital Unix) was not as attractive to science and entertainment as > Solaris or Irix. By the time Alpha's had the performance edge, Sun and SGI > were already entrenched.- Now explain why none of those are the dominate processor. > > Your Unix choices on the Mac include MachTen, AIX > > AIX won't run on a mac afaik. You mean you never knew that Apple was selling AIX servers? They weren't building anything but Mac hardware, BTW. AIX *WILL* run on a Mac. -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:00:29 -0700 Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology Message-ID: <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 04:57:49 GMT In article <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > No, that's your problem. Copland has *shipped*, yet you still equate it > to M$ vaporware. Edwin (or is it Anton or Cybernaught or Milo today?), when you spread such shit like this it's easy to see why nobody takes you seriously. So just when did Copland ship? Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <306916549240@digifix.com> Date: 24 Jan 1999 04:44:19 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <13193917154022@digifix.com> Topics include: Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites NeXTanswers Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites ============================================ The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise. Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server http://www.stepwise.com Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related Frequently Asked Questions. NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org http://www.peak.org/next http://www.peak.org/openstep http://www.peak.org/rhapsody PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North America. Apple Enterprise Software Group (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) http://enterprise.apple.com http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software patches. Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to develop great Rhapsody software products.. Rhapsody Developer Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html WebObjects Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups ==================================================== COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific groups as well. COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. ** RELATED NEWSGROUPS ** COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. COMP.OBJECT Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites ================================= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.peanuts.org: (Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site. Very well maintained. ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:07:41 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-2401990007410001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> In article <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu>, mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: > In article <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > > > > No, that's your problem. Copland has *shipped*, yet you still equate it > > to M$ vaporware. > > Edwin (or is it Anton or Cybernaught or Milo today?), when you spread such > shit like this it's easy to see why nobody takes you seriously. > > So just when did Copland ship? Actualy, most of the Copland technologies have shipped, but the suff developed for the core OS never did. However, I think this might actualy be for the better. Had Copland worked, we wouldn't be getting MacOS X, which looks as if it will be _much_ more of an OS than Copland or later MacOSes based on it ever would have been. -- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today znu <at> idt <dot> net
From: "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:08:07 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Message-ID: <78e9vq$gck@shelob.afs.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <782on1$hrj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782slt$1s5@shelob.afs.com> <78cqcj$f64$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Bernhard Scholz wrote: >"Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >>Precisely because DPS will not exist in OSX -- even as >>legacy libraries -- I would NOT expect a smooth transition >>from OSXS to OSX. It is almost a certainty that OSXS >>binaries will not run on OSX. That means developers will >>have no choice but to recompile (and possibly rewrite >>portions of) their apps. > >"Almost a certainty!" I can't hear it any more! You write as you >never developed and worked with NeXT, but you were one of the >first guys in the market (and always very sceptic as I remember). >Anyway, _nobody_ can tell what's happening with MacOX-X in >"late 1999". Even premium developers don't know and so even >Apple engineers don't know. All you know is: it will happen somehow. No, it won't. It's very simple: DPS is going away in OSX. Apple does not want to keep paying Adobe for a license to use it. Therefore, OSXS binaries WILL NOT run without recompilation on OSX, because a necessary component will not be shipped (or for that matter, *shippable*) by Apple. Prima facie. BTW, even Apple is no longer claiming OSX will ship in late 1999. The latest terminology is always "about a year," which takes us into 2000. At a bare minimum, they would wait for MacWorld in early January. >DPS is always mentioned as a "major" part of OpenStep, >however in real life you have to notice that it's influence is >very little. With the exception of graphic optimization and >hacks it had nearly no influence on application development. >Just analyse the many free available source codes. We're not talking about free source code, we're talking about commercial applications. PasteUp, TIFFany, and Create are just three apps off the top of my head that have HEAVY reliance on DPS and will need significant modification and testing to run without it. Greg
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:18:21 -0700 Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology Message-ID: <mazulauf-2301992218220001@happy.met.utah.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <znu-2401990007410001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 05:15:42 GMT In article <znu-2401990007410001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net>, znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) wrote: > Actualy, most of the Copland technologies have shipped, but the suff > developed for the core OS never did. _Some_ of them shipped. The OS did not (ie the core). OS 8.x is _nothing_ like what Copland was supposed to be. > However, I think this might actualy > be for the better. Had Copland worked, we wouldn't be getting MacOS X, > which looks as if it will be _much_ more of an OS than Copland or later > MacOSes based on it ever would have been. Quite possibly. But this doesn't absolve Apple from this being one of their failed OS strategies. Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 06:18:54 GMT Organization: MSI Networks, Inc. (using Airnews.net!) Message-ID: <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> Abuse-Reports-To: Report improper postings to abuse at msinets dot com NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.iadfw.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Jan 24 00:05:26 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 23 Jan 1999 21:54:28 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> wrote: >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > >> Alas, this is the same company that made THE F***** BIGGEST MISTAKE in >> software history--not licensing the MacOS a la Microsoft. So while we >> could all enter the next century running a home area network >> "amazingly great" GUI on an "best of breed" Unix OS on our StrongARM >> based home server for about $500 bucks, it appears as though we'll be >> pretty much where we are now only with possibily two M$'s (OS and >> apps). > >I oughta mention here that the StrongARM has no floating point processor, >no superscalar mechanism, and relatively unsophisticated pipelining. Oh. I'm no hardware wonk, so I ask "Would that preclude using a Linux-on-StrongARM (a la SideWinder) as a home server?) -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:32:03 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-2401990032040001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <znu-2401990007410001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <mazulauf-2301992218220001@happy.met.utah.edu> In article <mazulauf-2301992218220001@happy.met.utah.edu>, mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) wrote: > In article <znu-2401990007410001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net>, > znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) wrote: > > > Actualy, most of the Copland technologies have shipped, but the suff > > developed for the core OS never did. > > _Some_ of them shipped. The OS did not (ie the core). OS 8.x is > _nothing_ like what Copland was supposed to be. Right, but thinks like Sherlock (well, not the internet searching part) most the interface features that 8.x introduced, and OpenTransport (I think) were developed originaly for Copland. > > However, I think this might actualy > > be for the better. Had Copland worked, we wouldn't be getting MacOS X, > > which looks as if it will be _much_ more of an OS than Copland or later > > MacOSes based on it ever would have been. > > Quite possibly. But this doesn't absolve Apple from this being one of > their failed OS strategies. I personaly don't care who failed where. What I care about is getting the best OS I can get. MacOS X looks like the holy grail of operating systems to me (if only they'd let it run on more than one platform!). Copland was going to be a hack without full PMT or totaly protected memory. -- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today znu <at> idt <dot> net
Message-ID: <36AABD22.8BA3075E@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: G4s & AltiVec Release? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:28:58 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:32:16 CDT Anyone have more details on Apple's G4s if they will initially come w/AltiVec and the projected release date? The Mot says production during the first half of 1999.... It seems that the G4/AltiVec is worth waiting for if the need is not immediate. Imagine OS X on that new computer... Also see http://www.macspeedzone.com/4.0/G4news.html Thx, -Eric
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:55:35 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78ejlk$b39$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> In article <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > No, that's your problem. Copland has *shipped*, yet you still equate it > to M$ vaporware. Copland has not shipped. The white paper indicated that Copland would have protected memory, preemptive multitasking, memory-mapped files, efficient VM model, preemptive multithreading, a new driver model, etc. The Mac OS does not have any of these things. Only a subset of the Copland GUI and API changes have been made and none of the fundamental architectural changes have been made. > Apple has historically been very close-mouthed about their software > plans. Until recently, the complaint was that Apple gave *no* advance > information, not that they produce vaporware. Most of what you're > trying to fault Apple with is in reality third-party gossip. Copland was vaporware because it never shipped and never will. > Care to name any of these developers, or their products, or the > customers who are waiting for Mac OS X server? BTW, I saw a blurb in > InfoWorld last week that said Mac OS X Server has been *released.* Mac OS Server is suppost to be released next month so that article is incorrect. A lot of developers have been waiting on Mac OS X * (Sen:te, Omni, P & L Systems, Stone Design, Xinet, etc.). Also, the author of Paste Up has recently indicated that Paste Up may not be released for Mac OS X Server because the price of Mac OS X Sever is so high that it is unlikely to attract many users. > No, you are redefining the term, and that's amazing after all the > definitions you posted. All of them were based on software *not* > shipping. It has shipped to developers. Copland was shipped to selected developers but the product never saw the light of day. I also saw developer releases of Dylan and Bedrock and they are vapor. > In other words they've become like Microsoft, but to a much smaller > degree. Being better than Microsoft is not much of a standard. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: farz_no@spam.mindspring.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots Date: 24 Jan 1999 08:07:38 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <78ekca$u6f$1@camel25.mindspring.com> References: <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> In article <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> writes: > >Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message ><36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>... >>"John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: >>>The window manager in those screenshots is Window Maker, I do believe. >> >>Apropos what exactly? >>Are you one of those people who are still under the strange (yet common) >>misapprehension that GNUstep is a window manager? - It isn't. >>Perhaps you think that the 'Yellow Box' is a window manager too? > >Perhaps you should read my sentence again. I was stating what I believed >the WM to be, for those that didn't know... I know exactly what GNUstep >and YB are, but thanks for playing... > >>though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X >applications, >>so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps. > > >Have you ever used WM??? Apparently not... Just so that you know, Richard Frith-Macdonald is one of the GNUstep core developers. And in fact one of the most prolific. So if he hasn't used WM he's sure fooled a lot of us. ;-) >WM does NOT provide any menus for applications, nor is there any >intention for it to do so... It does provide a root menu that is in the >NeXT style, though. > It is not transparent, but it is actually very simple to add a WM menu to an app via WMMenuAddSubmenu(), WMAppCreateWithMain(), WMMenuAddItem(), WMAppSetMainMenu(), WMRealizeMenus(), ...etc. >The next time you decide to have an attitude, try to make sure you know >everything you're talking about to begin with... > This is just a misunderstanding. -- Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was # armed; his successors, since they avoided farz@mindspring.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private (NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes. (MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli
From: gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:10:45 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F619Lx.5pD@RnA.nl> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <christian.bau-2001991053120001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 10:04:04 GMT Cc: christian.bau@isltd.insignia.com In <christian.bau-2001991053120001@christian-mac.isltd.insignia.com> Christian Bau wrote: > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > > > > This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > > > > PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. > > And why then is the British Government starting to investigate against the > largest PC dealers for keeping prices artificially high? > I don't know. I just compare street prices in The Netherlands with those in the US. Those are comparable, or at least were comparable the last time I did look. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:09:08 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F619J8.5o0@RnA.nl> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <36a55cab.189050710@news.newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 10:04:02 GMT Cc: telam@iquest.net In <36a55cab.189050710@news.newsguy.com> Tom Elam wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:15:13 GMT, Tom Elam wrote the following word of wisdom > to Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl > > >As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > >depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > >fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > > > >This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > > > >PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. > > > Chalk this one up to mostly the high social cost of European employees. Retail > stores in Europe need considerably higher margins to cover the costs of doing > business in a cradle-to-grave system that results in costs per employee that > are up to twice that of the U.S. This is not the place for this discussion, but you should compare everything. Take for instance people living in 'good' counties. They pay a lot of local taxes for schools and policing etc. I have family living is such areas. They pay more taxes than I do. And don't forgte complicated tax write-offs. Taken all cost of public stuff, the differences between civilized countries is not that big. Besides, the actual cradle-to-grave system is a myth, at least here. Bottom line support is a very low amount. But all of this doesn't matter for this case. After all, for PC's the prices here are the same as in the US. So why is Apple here 15% more expensive than in the US? > Add in the horrible taxes on everything from > fuel to real property and Europe is just plain an expensive place to do > business. Some things are expensive. Fuel is about 4 times as expensive in Europa as it is in the US. Real estate in the US is more expensive. > I know - my company does about 20% of it's global business in > Europe. Despite the fact that our prices are higher than the U.S., our profit > margins are considerably lower due to higher administrative and operating > expenses. The Netherlands is a bit better than Germany or France on this > score, but even there the costs are very high compared to the U.S. Maybe for unschooled labour. (Minimum wage here is around $5). And the inflexibility of the labour market (at least here) has been gone. But again, what differences does that make all in all for an eCommerce site? Not much. There might be differences because of localization costs. But hey, I do not want a Dutch version. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:55:40 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F618ws.4MH@RnA.nl> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <782pmk$pbl$1@news-2.news.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 10:04:01 GMT Cc: jrp59@gte.net In <782pmk$pbl$1@news-2.news.gte.net> Ron Parsons wrote: > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > >As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > >depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > >fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > > > >This is without taxes. (EU sales tax is roughly 18%). > > > >PCs in Europe have prices that are comparable with US prices. > > Considering that in Europe, most items of brand name clothing are twice as > expensive and consumer electronics up to ten times, it's not all that bad. > > However, it may not be totaly without taxes as there are likely high > import duties. No. There are import duties on software (6% or so) but not on hardware. These have been canceled years ago. Since they were canceled, PC prices in Europe (or at least in The Netherlands) have been comparable to US prices. Sometimes stuff here is very expensive. A $300 Palm III will cost you easily $400 when purchased locally. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.games.action,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dm4cwm.fhsxgzmobhjtN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-2101991250260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net> <fTQp2.10167$XY6.266639@news.san.rr.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 05:45:23 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 04:44:35 -0600 William V. Campbell Jr. <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > In article <macghod-2101991250260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net> , > macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > > > In article <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell > > Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > > > >> In article <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> , > >> macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) wrote: > >> > >> > In article <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com>, "William V. Campbell > >> > Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >> I admit that I did over react to Steve's Sullivan's post. This is > > because he > >> >> only posts when there is a chance to bash Apple . > >> > > >> > > >> > That is totally false. your problem with me is while I feel free to > >> > praise APple (and I do) and bash intel and wintel) my feeling free to > >> > bash apple gets your panties in a bunch. > >> > > >> > And it is totally false I have been posting under different names. The > >> > whole time I have been posting under one name, macghod@concnetric.net > >> > >> What's your preoccupation with penises and panties? > >> Such immature blabber. > > > > You fibbed and said I constantly post under diferent names, which is a > > lie, and when confronted you call me names, and think I am the immature > > one? > > > > Your post made 2 claims, that I only post to bash Apple, which is a lie, > > and that I often post under different names, which is also a lie. > > > > *I* respond to points made in other people's posts, something you are > > apparently unable to do. > > > Sure, you respond to the parts of a post which don't expose you and your > silly game. I have never called you names, only a liar, which I believe is > quite accurate. > If you remember, your post which started this thread talked about kissing > Steve's Job penis and of Apple and Jobs being pathological liars. Remember > Steve. > Very immature in my book. My respond was immature in kind. That post was > made five posts ago. If I was, wrong I'm sorry. Instead of responding to my > most recent posts, you keep harping on about that one post on which I have > already responded in kind. > > Now, I am one not to back down from a good flame war, but I don't feel that > you are a enough of a challenge. Saying penis, panties, and liar-liar over > and over again doesn't really inspire me to great comebacks. > > So what I'm saying to you Steve (oh I'm sorry; macghod) is go play with > someone your own size, because I'm too big and bad for you to handle. Let's not forget what a liar Steve is. Before he began posting under his own name he was Macghod. Then he was NeXT Newbie. That's three different posting names. Steve is here to advocate cheap PCs, bash Apple and anything associated with it, and to attack Mac advocates whenever he can. As NeXT Newbie he flooded this news group with posts urging Mac users to switch to PCs running NeXT. Later he denied ever using a PC. Watch out for this guy William, he's really snakey. > > -- > You will know fear. Then you will know pain. Then you will come back to the > MacOS. > > soup > > -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:51:53 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 06:51:05 -0600 Mike Zulauf <mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu> wrote: > In article <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > > > > No, that's your problem. Copland has *shipped*, yet you still equate it > > to M$ vaporware. > > Edwin (or is it Anton or Cybernaught or Milo today?), when you spread such > shit like this it's easy to see why nobody takes you seriously. It's Edwin on the days you take your pills, who knows on the days you don't? What makes you think anyone takes *you* seriously? Everyone who's followed the course of Mac OS upgrades knows I'm right. You're the one who's spreading sh*t. > So just when did Copland ship? Incrementally from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1. Why don't you know this? Too busy spouting off to bother with the truth? > Mike -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:49:29 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78f8d8$oam$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <782on1$hrj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782slt$1s5@shelob.afs.com> <78cqcj$f64$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78e9vq$gck@shelob.afs.com> In article <78e9vq$gck@shelob.afs.com>, "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: > No, it won't. It's very simple: DPS is going away in OSX. Apple does not > want to keep paying Adobe for a license to use it. Therefore, OSXS binaries > WILL NOT run without recompilation on OSX, because a necessary component > will not be shipped (or for that matter, *shippable*) by Apple. Prima facie. > Umm, 'Aint necessarily so. This exact question was asked of an Apple engineer recently, and the answer is "it depends". If you don't use any PS code (if you abstract everything out using NSBezier and NSString) it's very likely to work, and if you use just simple PS function calls (psmoveto, pslineto) it is quite likely to work (it depends on just how much compatibility they can build in). If you use any PSwraps you can be guaranteed your code won't work. Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Message-ID: <casper-2401990931350001@192.168.1.3> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:31:19 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:32:13 CDT In article <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170>, sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) wrote: <SNIP> >Face it: OpenStep/Rhapsody/OSX will be wildly popular and cause more >people than ever to "spend a little more" for the Macintosh hardware, and >be so damn reliable that even linux users will gasp at it's >"stayupability" Unfortunately you're probably very mistaken. Apple can't market anything properly, so they won't markey OS X properly either. It will be a fantastic OS, but will be ignored because many corporate decision makers hate Apple and the rest are going to ignore it because Apple won't call them and try to sell it to them. -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, in the White House?" Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone together." Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica blew him!
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 24 Jan 1999 16:21:22 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kalle Näslund <m98kalle@ibg.uu.se> wrote: >>* Linux doesn't recognize memory >64MB until 2 month ago (kernel >>>2.0.35) > >This is incorect, as you probably know, the kernel didnt do this >automatic, you had to append a line saying mem=128mb, if you had 128mb >of ram. the way you write makes it sound like the kernel coulden use >more than 64mb, witch it of cuarse have been able to before 2.0.35 > >>* distribution packages are incompatible too > >have you ever used ALIEN, a program tha converts the different package >formats ? I do agree that it is sad that there are several package >formats but this dont present a real problem, first you can get nearly >all programs in all used package formats, and if not you can use >alien. > You are correct in every sense, but it also shows the problem: on Linux there is a solution nearly for everything: but you have a) to find it b) hack some stuff (like the mem line) c) know what you are doing. d) different distributions handle the same thing in a different way. Conclusion: it's in no way user friendly and NEXTSTEP/OpenStep etc. always showed how it could be handled perfectly differently. The NeXT people thought about the user interaction, the Linux people think about their OS capabilities. Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.penauts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: OS X Server price strategy Date: 24 Jan 1999 16:31:32 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <78fht4$7n$2@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <77g6tt$d0k$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> <F5IH0v.KGn@T-FCN.Net> <77j4jv$g3k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <F5Itun.4F0@T-FCN.Net> <77volg$u0j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901181407510.3605-100000@mail.his.com> <7803jj$rr1@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <znu-1801992133500001@ppp-4.ts-2.nyc.idt.net> <781sol$13f@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> <782on1$hrj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <782slt$1s5@shelob.afs.com> <78cqcj$f64$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78e9vq$gck@shelob.afs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Greg Anderson" <greg@afs.com> wrote: >No, it won't. It's very simple: DPS is going away in OSX. Apple does >not want to keep paying Adobe for a license to use it. Therefore, OSXS >binaries WILL NOT run without recompilation on OSX, because a >necessary component will not be shipped (or for that matter, >*shippable*) by Apple. Prima facie. >>We're not talking about free source code, we're talking about >commercial applications. PasteUp, TIFFany, and Create are just three >apps off the top of my head that have HEAVY reliance on DPS and will >need significant modification and testing to run without it. > Dear Greg, I sounds like you never talked to developers about the problem. I'm sure DPS will fanish, however the API is converted. In fact it is very likely that aequivalent API calls will be available for the QuickTime and included QuickDraw libraries. This means: pswrap programs simply can't work anymore, but if you were using NeXT/Apple APIs you'r code should be easily converted. At my working place we also once used pswrap code, but I'm sure it could be easily converted to any other drawing api --- especially when you think about the QuickDraw features being similar to DPS capabilities with the exception to the completely different programming model. However heavily DPS depending apps, like Tiffany will have a harder stand, but on the other hand these apps make up only a very little percentage of available apps. Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.penauts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:10:52 -0700 Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology Message-ID: <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 17:08:10 GMT In article <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > Mike Zulauf <mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu> wrote: > > So just when did Copland ship? > > Incrementally from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1. Why don't you know this? Too busy > spouting off to bother with the truth? Have you seen the White Paper? Do you know what was planned for Copland? 8.5.1 _is not_ Copland. Copland was to be fully native, have preemptive multitasking, and so on. Nobody else says that Copland has shipped. Why do you? Mike -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36ab4408.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 24 Jan 1999 16:02:16 GMT "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: > >Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message >>though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X >applications, >>so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps. > > >Have you ever used WM??? Apparently not... >WM does NOT provide any menus for applications, nor is there any >intention for it to do so... It does provide a root menu that is in the >NeXT style, though. Sorry you misread me - What I actually wrote was - > For instance, the GNUstep xraw > backend library draws it's menus itsself - those aren't provided by Window Maker, > though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X applications, > so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps. I was drawing the distiction between GNUstep apps - (where the entire menu window including border and title bar is drawn by the app) and non-GNUstep apps (where the basic look is normally provided by the window-manager). >The next time you decide to have an attitude, try to make sure you know >everything you're talking about to begin with... Ok - I'll try to do that if you try not to pretend that others don't know what they are talking about by quioting out of context :-)
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:24:12 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78fog6$31v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <znu-2401990007410001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> <mazulauf-2301992218220001@happy.met.utah.edu> <znu-2401990032040001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net> In article <znu-2401990032040001@ppp-16.ts-14.nyc.idt.net>, znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) wrote: > Right, but thinks like Sherlock (well, not the internet searching part) > most the interface features that 8.x introduced, and OpenTransport (I > think) were developed originaly for Copland. Open Transport was not a Copland technology. Copland was supposed to ship in '96 wasn't it? Three years later and we are still waiting for the important features of Copland to become part of the Mac OS. I'll admit that I like what Apple has done with the interface but they still haven't fixed the fundamental problems. Also, Apple is now breaking their commitments for hardware support, seemingly without remorse. Copland was supposed to work on any pure PPC but, of course, anyone with a first or second generation PowerMac will never see a Copland-like Apple OS. Rhapsody was supposed to be supported on any computing shipping at the time of it's announcement. Now it has been relabeled Mac OS Server and will only be supported on G3s. > I personally don't care who failed where. What I care about is getting the > best OS I can get. OK but Apple has been really bad about giving this to us in short order. > Copland was going to be a hack without full PMT or totally protected memory. Originally it was going to have both but then Apple decided that they couldn't go it and created a new operating system, Gershwin, to succeed Copland. That operating system also turned out to be vapor. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:01:00 -0600 From: d <d@d.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check this out: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/veronica-goes-alpha.shtml d. Mike Zulauf wrote: > In article <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > > > Mike Zulauf <mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu> wrote: > > > > So just when did Copland ship? > > > > Incrementally from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1. Why don't you know this? Too busy > > spouting off to bother with the truth? > > Have you seen the White Paper? Do you know what was planned for Copland? > 8.5.1 _is not_ Copland. Copland was to be fully native, have preemptive > multitasking, and so on. Nobody else says that Copland has shipped. Why > do you? > > Mike > > -- > Mike Zulauf > mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> <36ab4408.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36ab6b28.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 24 Jan 1999 18:49:12 GMT richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) wrote: >"John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: >>The next time you decide to have an attitude, try to make sure you know >>everything you're talking about to begin with... > >Ok - I'll try to do that if you try not to pretend that others don't know what they >are talking about by quioting out of context :-) Just in case - the smiley was meant to show that I don't really think you misunderstood willfully.
From: gmgraves@slip.net (George Graves) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4s & AltiVec Release? Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:12:31 -0800 Organization: Graves Associates Message-ID: <gmgraves-2401991112310001@sf-usr1-47-175.dialup.slip.net> References: <36AABD22.8BA3075E@mediaone.net> In article <36AABD22.8BA3075E@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: >Anyone have more details on Apple's G4s if they will initially come >w/AltiVec and the projected release date? The Mot says production >during the first half of 1999.... > >It seems that the G4/AltiVec is worth waiting for if the need is not >immediate. Imagine OS X on that new computer... > >Also see http://www.macspeedzone.com/4.0/G4news.html > >Thx, >-Eric I suspect (based on Apple's traditional way of releasing new products) that the G4s will be released at Jobs' keynote address for this summer's Boston MacWorld convention. On the other hand, he could also release them concurrently with the World-Wide Developer's Conferece (WWDC) in May. Apple has been known, in recent times, to call a special press conference to release a new product, so he could surprise everybody and do it that way. So, all anyone can really say, is that the G4s will be released by next August. -- George Graves
From: "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:13:46 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <78frg8$dq4$1@news.erinet.com> References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> <36ab4408.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 19:15:20 GMT Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message <36ab4408.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>... >"John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: >Sorry you misread me - What I actually wrote was - > >> For instance, the GNUstep xraw >> backend library draws it's menus itsself - those aren't provided by Window Maker, >> though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X applications, >> so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps. > >I was drawing the distiction between GNUstep apps - (where the entire menu window >including border and title bar is drawn by the app) and non-GNUstep apps (where >the basic look is normally provided by the window-manager). Are you perhaps confusing 'menu' with 'window frame'. WM certainly doesn't provide detached vertical menus for non-GNUstep apps. Therefore the app is going to look as it always did. >The next time you decide to have an attitude, try to make sure you know >>everything you're talking about to begin with... > >Ok - I'll try to do that if you try not to pretend that others don't know what they >are talking about by quioting out of context :-) I'm not pretending. I'm still not sure you know what your talking about. :-)
From: mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu (Mike Zulauf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:20:01 -0700 Organization: Universtity of Utah - Department of Meteorology Message-ID: <mazulauf-2401991220020001@bashful.met.utah.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 1999 19:17:19 GMT Yeah, I've seen this. It does look interesting, however it still ain't here. Until that time everything is rumor and speculation. In the past we've heard all kinds of rumors that have turned out not to be true. So as I said, interesting, but be cautious reading things like this. Mike In article <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com>, d <d@d.com> wrote: > Check this out: > > > http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/veronica-goes-alpha.shtml > > d. > > Mike Zulauf wrote: > > Have you seen the White Paper? Do you know what was planned for Copland? > > 8.5.1 _is not_ Copland. Copland was to be fully native, have preemptive > > multitasking, and so on. Nobody else says that Copland has shipped. Why > > do you? -- Mike Zulauf mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu
From: "Rob A. Augustinus" <devious@xs4all.nl> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:28:17 +0100 Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Message-ID: <78fs18$3is$1@news2.xs4all.nl> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote in message ... >On 23 Jan 1999 16:51:07 GMT, ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) >wrote: > >>Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), >> >Alas, this is the same company that made THE FUCKIN BIGGEST MISTAKE in >software history--not licensing the MacOS a la Microsoft. MISTAKE !?!? I wouldn't call it a mistake... marketing technically seen yes... but it's still far from a good and stable OS.
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:20:19 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Message-ID: <kindall-2401991520190001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> In article <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > Mike Zulauf <mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu> wrote: > > > In article <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, > > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > > > > > > > No, that's your problem. Copland has *shipped*, yet you still equate it > > > to M$ vaporware. > > > > Edwin (or is it Anton or Cybernaught or Milo today?), when you spread such > > shit like this it's easy to see why nobody takes you seriously. > > It's Edwin on the days you take your pills, who knows on the days you > don't? What makes you think anyone takes *you* seriously? Everyone > who's followed the course of Mac OS upgrades knows I'm right. You're > the one who's spreading sh*t. > > > So just when did Copland ship? > > Incrementally from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1. Why don't you know this? Too busy > spouting off to bother with the truth? The part of Copland everybody really cares about, i.e. the NuKernel with its pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory, has never shipped. Saying that "Copland has shipped, incrementally, from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1" conveniently ignores the fact that we still don't have _all_ of it, especially the part that would have made it different from previous versions of the Mac OS! -- Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book!
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:23:37 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Message-ID: <kindall-2401991523370001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com> In article <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com>, d <d@d.com> wrote: > Check this out: > > http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/veronica-goes-alpha.shtml Read it. As improved as 8.6 may be from previous versions -- and it's never been a big secret that there's plenty of room for improvement and I'm glad Apple is finally getting around to it -- it still relies on cooperative multitasking and lacks full memory protection. 8.6 is not Copland. -- Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book!
From: rossber@slip.net (Ross Bernheim) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:41:17 -0800 Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net) Message-ID: <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. You miss the point, while you can customize and specialize a PC for 3D game playing or such, Businesses buy an awful lot of PC's as comodity items like unto tape dispensers. They specify the CPU and speed, memory, minimum disk size and generic video card, keyboard, display, and network card. Brand is immaterial to them, only price counts, as with any comodity. I have to put up with this mentality and the resultant miserable results at work. There I have to use what they give me, at home I get to use my Mac! -- Ross Bernheim rossber@slip.net
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:22:06 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Message-ID: <kindall-2401991822060001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net> In article <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net>, rossber@slip.net (Ross Bernheim) wrote: > Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. > > You miss the point, while you can customize and specialize a PC for 3D > game playing or such, Businesses buy an awful lot of PC's as comodity > items like unto tape dispensers. They specify the CPU and speed, memory, > minimum disk size and generic video card, keyboard, display, and network > card. Brand is immaterial to them, only price counts, as with any > comodity. If they can specify the CPU, speed, memory, disk size, video card, keyboard, display, and network card -- it's not a commodity. That's way too many options. On a commodity, you get one choice. Brand. _All_ other features are equivalent. What is the difference between a Chiquita banana and a Dole banana? A sticker. They are a commodity, identical except for brand. PCs are _not_ all identical except for brand. They are not even all _functionally_ identical except for brand. One might have a sound card. One might not. One might have a _better_ sound card than another one. The fact that your company apparently does not care about these differences does not mean they do not exist or that they do not matter to other buyers. My prediction is that computers will become commodities when we hit the limit of Moore's Law. At this point it will be electrically impossible to make computers faster, so we will see 1) an explosion of largely pointless and cosmetic features invented by manufacturers in an attempt to continue differentiating their machines followed by a shakeout resulting in a "standard" set of features that all machines will have and 2) dramatic price reductions until a typical PC costs under $100. When there is a "standard PC," when you can't get _any_ options, that machine will be a commodity. Moore's Law is expected to run out in 2020 or so, last I heard. By 2030 or 2040 we should see true commodity computers. -- Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book!
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:24:14 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Message-ID: <kindall-2401991824140001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com> <kindall-2401991523370001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> <36AB939D.9CCA4CA1@d.com> In article <36AB939D.9CCA4CA1@d.com>, d <d@d.com> wrote: > First of all I didn't think I said it was Copland. Right, but following up in a thread where one person said Copland had been shipped incrementally, there was the implication that you intended your message to support that viewpoint. If you didn't, I apologize. (BTW, my first sentence, "Read it," should have said "I read it." Otherwise it might be read as an imperative for _you_ to read it, which would be silly since you obviously have done so. <g>) > The second thing is that Apple has cancelled Copland a while ago. Yep, everyone in this thread but one seems to realize that. > Jerry Kindall wrote: > > > In article <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com>, d <d@d.com> wrote: > > > > > Check this out: > > > > > > http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/veronica-goes-alpha.shtml > > > > Read it. As improved as 8.6 may be from previous versions -- and it's > > never been a big secret that there's plenty of room for improvement and > > I'm glad Apple is finally getting around to it -- it still relies on > > cooperative multitasking and lacks full memory protection. 8.6 is not > > Copland. > > > > -- > > Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing > > Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book! -- Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book!
From: genny@ccms.net (Gennica Hamilton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> Organization: ......./........ NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:08:36 EDT Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:08:28 -0600 Congratulations Macintosh! Today, Jan 24th is the Macintosh's 15th Birthday!!!!!!! And to Celebrate, Apple Released 2 New Wonderful Advertisments!!! Check them out... The new "Color" one is PERFECT for this Celebration!!!!!! It's such a catchy tune!!!!!!!!! All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html Colors -> The Mac Birthday Song! http://www.apple.com/main/media/colors/colors00.mov Open Minded -> Begins the first PC to Macintosh mass migration!!!!!!!! ftp://ftp.apple.com/web/television/openminded/openmd01.mov --- PS: If macintosh were a child, we must admit the early teen years were a little rough... but NeXT year, when Macintosh turns 16, it will learn by driving a shiny new car called OSX... woooossssh! Here comes the "Real Superhighway"...
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:51:28 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-2401991851290001@ppp-37.ts-9.nyc.idt.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-2401991822060001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> In article <kindall-2401991822060001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net>, kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote: > In article <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net>, > rossber@slip.net (Ross Bernheim) wrote: > > > Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > > > PCs are extremely specialized. They are simply not commodities. > > > > You miss the point, while you can customize and specialize a PC for 3D > > game playing or such, Businesses buy an awful lot of PC's as comodity > > items like unto tape dispensers. They specify the CPU and speed, memory, > > minimum disk size and generic video card, keyboard, display, and network > > card. Brand is immaterial to them, only price counts, as with any > > comodity. > > If they can specify the CPU, speed, memory, disk size, video card, > keyboard, display, and network card -- it's not a commodity. That's way > too many options. What about color? :-) -- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today znu <at> idt <dot> net
Message-ID: <36AB939D.9CCA4CA1@d.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:41:51 -0600 From: d <d@d.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com> <kindall-2401991523370001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First of all I didn't think I said it was Copland. The second thing is that Apple has cancelled Copland a while ago. Wait until you get Mac Os X. d. Jerry Kindall wrote: > In article <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com>, d <d@d.com> wrote: > > > Check this out: > > > > http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/veronica-goes-alpha.shtml > > Read it. As improved as 8.6 may be from previous versions -- and it's > never been a big secret that there's plenty of room for improvement and > I'm glad Apple is finally getting around to it -- it still relies on > cooperative multitasking and lacks full memory protection. 8.6 is not > Copland. > > -- > Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing > Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book!
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:40:56 GMT Organization: KU Message-ID: <D0CAA8CA3EF7AA90.23936D0A3381A9E6.73DF713E5396C7DE@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Jan 24 20:45:07 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 24 Jan 1999 06:51:05 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: >> Edwin (or is it Anton or Cybernaught or Milo today?), when you spread such >> shit like this it's easy to see why nobody takes you seriously. > >It's Edwin on the days you take your pills, And Anton, cybernut, milo etc (polaski? taggart? you never know) when edwin forgets his. -- Nathan A. Hughes The University Theatre, KU www.scenedesign.com
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 25 Jan 1999 03:15:41 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7anoet.p4c.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <B2CA86BD-3C523@206.165.43.37> <genny-1901992138080001@ppp75.ccms.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 1999 03:15:41 GMT On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:38:08 -0600, Gennica Hamilton <genny@ccms.net> wrote: :It's in some of the books... he was going to "take over" Brandley 4 after :the Macintosh didn't take off as planned... he wanted to take some of the :Macintosh managers with him, and start something called AppleLabs... :Sculley caught wind of this, and sucessfully removed him from the :organizational chart... (a common apple practice)... at that point steve :wandered away and fell into his "black period"... until he came back 18 :months ago... That's what you get from a sugar-water salesman's mentality: innovation must be brought under control and strict supervision. Compare to Sun: Bill Joy setup shop in Aspen, CO with a few very bright people, to do something very good with Java. This was quite approved and quite intentional. The result (Jini, Javaspaces et al) is getting some quite deserved good press, and shows the kind of forward thinking architectural innovations that Apple hasn't shown since, maybe 1985, with a small exception in Quicktime. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 25 Jan 1999 03:20:34 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7anoo2.p4c.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-2401991822060001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 1999 03:20:34 GMT :In article <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net>, :rossber@slip.net (Ross Bernheim) wrote: : :If they can specify the CPU, speed, memory, disk size, video card, :keyboard, display, and network card -- it's not a commodity. That's way :too many options. : :On a commodity, you get one choice. Brand. _All_ other features are :equivalent. PC's are bags of commoditized components. :What is the difference between a Chiquita banana and a Dole banana? A :sticker. They are a commodity, identical except for brand. And if a shopper buys bananas, apples, milk and ''american light lager'' beer in a certain ratio, does this mean that the "shopping bag+contents" has no relation the underlying commoditized markets? That the economics has radically changed because some shoppers want 2 apples per banana and others want just one? No. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: radparker@radparker.com (Al Iverson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Message-ID: <radparker-2401991840230001@exp107.nc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> <36A6AB2F.B6A87051@nospam.geocities.com> Organization: See sig before replying 'uXH=W&p"uk`x94vl)r'?wajM1]Z7&R5XFhYN:MJ0xeu,.<mL`qyZ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:40:23 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:37:18 CDT In article <36A6AB2F.B6A87051@nospam.geocities.com>, szerelem@nospam.geocities.com wrote: > Wilykat wrote: > > > > It gets dropped over and over and over.. > > > > I hope that was a torture test to prove Macs are more durable than any > > PeeCee. > > Actually, it was just a televised trashing. And then it only proved a > few things. 1) that when an iMac is dropped, you can't even turn it on > anymore, 2) when an iMac breaks, you gotta lug the whole thing around to > be fixed, and 3) you can't really fix it right anyway. > > -elvina Thankss, but did you really need to post that 3 times? The next time you're out for a bout of mac trashing, perhaps you could figure out how to operate your Windoze box properly. Al Iverson -- Al Iverson -- Web: http://al.radparker.com/ -- Home: Minneapolis, MN, USA This is a valid email address. Hit [R]eply, and you will reach me if your mail contains my full name, one of my message-IDs, or a newsgroups header. Send me no unsolicited advertising, as I will always return it to the ISP.
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:54:05 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-2401992254050001@nas-p14.usc.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <kindall-2401991520190001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> In article <kindall-2401991520190001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net>, kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote: > > Incrementally from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1. Why don't you know this? Too busy > > spouting off to bother with the truth? > > The part of Copland everybody really cares about, i.e. the NuKernel with > its pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory, has never shipped. Interestingly, it was the NuKernel which was the most robust and complete aspect of the Copland project at the time. The kernel wasn't the problem with Copland, it was adding the rest of the Toolbox onto the NuKernel. Had it not been cancelled, it'd probably be about finished by now. Now that we have much of the rest of it implemented on top of the normal abstraction. Trev
From: kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:39:59 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Message-ID: <kindall-2401992339590001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <kindall-2401991520190001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> <trev-2401992254050001@nas-p14.usc.net> In article <trev-2401992254050001@nas-p14.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote: > In article <kindall-2401991520190001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net>, > kindall@mail.manual.com (Jerry Kindall) wrote: > > > > Incrementally from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1. Why don't you know this? Too busy > > > spouting off to bother with the truth? > > > > The part of Copland everybody really cares about, i.e. the NuKernel with > > its pre-emptive multitasking and protected memory, has never shipped. > > Interestingly, it was the NuKernel which was the most robust and complete > aspect of the Copland project at the time. The kernel wasn't the problem > with Copland, it was adding the rest of the Toolbox onto the NuKernel. > Had it not been cancelled, it'd probably be about finished by now. Now > that we have much of the rest of it implemented on top of the normal > abstraction. I can't say I'm that surprised to hear the NuKernel was well along. You can learn to write kernels in CS curricula these days and the characteristics of good ones are well-known. Of course, bringing apps to Copland would have still required major revision, unless the UI was already well-factored from the back end. At least Carbon saves that. -- Jerry Kindall mailto:kindall@mail.manual.com Technical Writing Manual Labor http://www.manual.com We wrote the book!
From: look@my.sig (Michael J. Stango) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 04:49:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:49:37 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: >15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just >a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... If the Mac is a toy, what does that make the Wintel boxes everyone's buying almost exclusively to play games? ~Philly ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Michael J. Stango --who is known as 'mjstango' at his ISP, 'home.com' "If Bill Gates had a dime for every time a Windows box crashed-- Oh, wait a minute... he does."
From: Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:36:10 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F5yAGA.1tu@RnA.nl> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <36A7C2BE.C2455780@NoSPAM.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 1999 22:19:32 GMT Frederic Foucault <ff48@columbia.edu> wrote: >Hey Mister hugo, > >you probably never saw or used NeXTStep/OpenStep or Rhapsody because you should know >that you can decompress anything. You can decompress .hqx files (you can't read >compress files, excuse me). Just go to Stepwise server for the OpenStep community >and download the new great utility called: OpenUp . > >I hope that I have helped you to resolve your problem. > Hugo was one of the first NeXT users here in The Netherlands. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:30:19 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development (not) Message-ID: <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 1999 04:34:49 GMT Apple have never been going out of business. Apple's doom has been predicted for the last 10 years, and it never came. It never will. Simon Wright. Tim Scoff wrote in message ... >15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just >a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... > >In article <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net>, genny@ccms.net (Gennica >Hamilton) wrote: > >>Congratulations Macintosh! >> >>Today, Jan 24th is the Macintosh's 15th Birthday!!!!!!! >> >>And to Celebrate, Apple Released 2 New Wonderful Advertisments!!! >> >>Check them out... The new "Color" one is PERFECT for this Celebration!!!!!! >> >>It's such a catchy tune!!!!!!!!! >> >> >>All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html >> >> >>Colors -> The Mac Birthday Song! >> >>http://www.apple.com/main/media/colors/colors00.mov >> >> >>Open Minded -> Begins the first PC to Macintosh mass migration!!!!!!!! >> >>ftp://ftp.apple.com/web/television/openminded/openmd01.mov >> >> >>--- >> >>PS: If macintosh were a child, we must admit the early teen years were a >>little rough... but NeXT year, when Macintosh turns 16, it will learn by >>driving a shiny new car called OSX... woooossssh! Here comes the "Real >>Superhighway"... > >-- >Tim Scoff >casper@nb.net ><http://www.nb.net/~casper/> > >Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, in the White House?" >Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone together." >Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica blew him!
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <petrich-2401992122050001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:18:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:18:24 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net>, genny@ccms.net (Gennica Hamilton) wrote: > All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html Fabulous!!! Apple has finally gotten into gear again with its advertising. "Think Different" was rather woozy for my taste, but at least here's some ads that show off product features. And really good ones at that, such as easy opening up and multicolors. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
Message-ID: <36AC065B.1F0A4107@hotmail.com> From: HR Pufnstuf <brad_tarver@hotmail.com> Organization: Brother Design, LLC MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.news.microsoft,microsoft.public,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?iso-8859-1?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4?= References: <genny-2401991736330001@ppp7.ccms.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:51:23 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:51:36 CDT Gennica Hamilton wrote: > > Congratulations Apple! > > Today, Jan 24th is the Macintosh's 15th Birthday!!!!!!! > > And to Celebrate, Apple Released 2 New Wonderful Advertisments!!! > > Check them out... The new "Color" one is PERFECT for this Celebration!!!!!! > > It's such a catchy tune!!!!!!!!! > > All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html > > Colors -> The Mac Birthday Song! > > http://www.apple.com/main/media/colors/colors00.mov > > Open Minded -> Begins the first PC to Macintosh mass migration!!!!!!!! > > ftp://ftp.apple.com/web/television/openminded/openmd01.mov > > --- > > PS: If macintosh were a child, we must admit the early teen years were a > little rough... but NeXT year, when Macintosh turns 16, it will learn by > driving a shiny new car called OSX... woooossssh! Finally, here comes the "Real > Superhighway"... okay, so why is someone posting mac bs here in a microsoft NG. and why would mac make a 20th anniversary mac in 1997 when today is the 15 b'day. could you explain this one? MACINTOSH stands for Most Application Crash If Not The Operating System Hangs. WINDOWS stands for Will Install Needless Data On Whole System. Brad -- "Linux - In a world without fences, who needs Gates?" http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7388/
From: crc3419@DELPHI.com (Jeremy Crabtree) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.news.microsoft,microsoft.public,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4___Happy_15th_Birthday_-_Macintosh!___`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4?= Date: 25 Jan 1999 06:05:08 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <slrn7anur7.3b6.crc3419@ItMightBeAServer.net> References: <genny-2401991736330001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36AC065B.1F0A4107@hotmail.com> HR Pufnstuf allegedly wrote: >[...] > why would mac make a 20th anniversary mac in 1997 when today is the 15 >b'day. could you explain this one? [...] Pretty simple actually, Apple was (presumably) founded in 1977, so a special 20th anniversary computer is perfectly reasonable. Their first computer was NOT the Mac, ya know. Where you got the notion that Macintosh is the name of the company, is beyond me, though. -- "Being myself a remarkably stupid fellow, I have had to unteach myself the difficulties, and now beg to present to my fellow fools the parts that are not hard" --Silvanus P. Thompson, from "Calculus Made Easy."
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 24 Jan 99 23:37:56 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D15F5F-37194@206.165.43.129> References: <slrn7anoet.p4c.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com> said: > >Compare to Sun: Bill Joy setup shop in Aspen, CO with a few very >bright people, to do something very good with Java. This was quite >approved and quite intentional. The result (Jini, Javaspaces et al) is >getting some quite deserved good press, and shows the kind of forward >thinking architectural innovations that Apple hasn't shown since, >maybe 1985, with a small exception in Quicktime. DId you forget OpenDoc, GX, and so on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:27:59 -0500 Organization: Waltonschauung Message-ID: <atticus-2501990227590001@user-38lcavk.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. In article <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: :15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just :a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... Not even close to a record. Try 23 (ish) years of Apple Computer, selling machines despite the fact that nobody wants a computer at home when they could have a terminal hooked to a mainframe at a screaming 300 baud. Or Cable TV companies that have been around for about 30 years, despite the fact that nobody wants to pay for television when they could get it for free. Or TV networks that have been around half a century, despite the fact that nobody wants radio with pictures. Or non-Ford car companies that stubbornly remain in business despite the fact that no one needs more car that a model T, or wants colors other than black. Or Levi Strauss and Company, which has put in over a century despite the fact that no one would wear dungarees when he could have a nice pair of well-pressed trousers. The difference is that in all of the above examples, the detractors relented after a decade of success and a few million units sold. Wintrolls are a stubborn lot. -- "I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element; I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details." -- Albert Einstein -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.news.microsoft,microsoft.public,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:45:39 -0500 Organization: Waltonschauung Message-ID: <atticus-2501990245400001@user-38lcavk.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <genny-2401991736330001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36AC065B.1F0A4107@hotmail.com> Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. In article <36AC065B.1F0A4107@hotmail.com>, brad_tarver@hotmail.com wrote: :okay, so why is someone posting mac bs here in a microsoft NG. Welcome to crossposting. If it annoys you, well, that's oribably why someone did it. I've set followups to this message to exclude Microsoft-specific newsgroups. :and why :would mac make a 20th anniversary mac in 1997 when today is the 15 :b'day. could you explain this one? 1997 was the 20th anniversary of Apple Computer, Inc., founded by Jobs, Wozniak and Markkula in Jobs' garage in 1977. Today is the 15th anniversary of the Macintosh, unveiled in January 1984. Apple had products before the Mac. Sort of like Ford, celebrating the 35th anniversary of the Mustang when Ford celebrated its 90th anniversary a few years ago. -- "Five tacos, one taco burger. Do you know where the American Dream is?" -- Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 25 Jan 1999 08:41:58 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <78haom$nqh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <77qftt$jbf$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> <slrn7af6ct.3ik.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> mbkennel@ yahoo.spam-B-gone.com <REMOVETHEBADDOMAIN> wrote: : On 16 Jan 1999 16:49:01 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: : : : :Funny how the two companies can be in a similar spot and have such : :different plans: : : : : Sun: We make our money on custom hardware. : : Apple: We make our money on custom hardware. : : Sun: We better give away an x86 OS to attract attention. : : Apple: We better not sell an x86 OS, it would bleed sales. : Sun: We make our money on custom hardware costing $20K+++ : Apple: We make our money on custom hardware costing $2-$3K. : Sun: We better give away an x86 OS to attract attention. Since : anybody who wants a real server will buy Sparcs anyway we : won't lose money. And the attention we're attracting is : not much better than how much Solaris X86 sucks compared to : Linux. Java was a better idea. : Apple: Um, we're in a more delicate situation. People who are "delicate" stay in bed with sheets pulled up to their chin. John
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> <36ab4408.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78frg8$dq4$1@news.erinet.com> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36ac3cd1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 25 Jan 1999 09:43:45 GMT "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: > >Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message ><36ab4408.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>... >>"John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> wrote: >>Sorry you misread me - What I actually wrote was - >> >>> For instance, the GNUstep xraw >>> backend library draws it's menus itsself - those aren't provided by >Window Maker, >>> though Window Maker provides similar looking menus for non-GNUstep X >applications, >>> so they don't look too out of place next to real GNUstep apps. >> >>I was drawing the distiction between GNUstep apps - (where the entire menu >window >>including border and title bar is drawn by the app) and non-GNUstep apps >(where >>the basic look is normally provided by the window-manager). > >Are you perhaps confusing 'menu' with 'window frame'. I'm not confusing anything with anything - you are! Ok - I used sloppy english in saying that 'Window Maker provides similar looking menus' since this can be read as either WM provides the menus or WM provides the look of the menus. But I'd have thought that the actual meaning was obvious from the context. Of course WM can't independantly provide all of the menus for an application - it doesn't know what menus the application wants - so I must have been referring to the look of the menus, yes? People with even a passing aquaintance with X would know that an X window manager is normally responsible for the overall appearance of the menu while the toolkit used is normally responsible for the interior details (though for WM-aware apps - which is what we were talking about, WM generally does both) and will therefore tend to assume that the window-manager handled the look of the menus. I didn't use the term 'window frame' because comp.sys.next.advocacy is not an X-programmers group. People can be expected to have a general understanding of X, but won't want to be messed up by technical terms that may have a different meaning outside the X programmers context. In my experience mostly in X (when discussing window managers), people use 'window frame' to refer to the title bar of a window and the border round it... but in other systems people tend to stick to the more techical meaning of 'that rectangle into which a window is drawn'. > WM certainly doesn't >provide >detached vertical menus for non-GNUstep apps. Therefore the app is going to >look as it always did. This is only partially correct - and then only for two sets of applications that we weren't talking about anyway - 1. For a non-WM aware app that doesn't provide freestanding menus - the app will look the same, but you won't see the sort of menus we are talking about at all! 2. For a non-WM aware app that does provide freestanding menus - the menus may look like NeXTstep menus in varying degrees - depending on toolkit used and degree to which the app allows the WM to manage the border/title of the window in which the menu is displayed. Now the screenshots we were talking about were NOT of non-WM aware apps, so the two cases above are really irrelevant to the discussion. 3. For an WM-aware application, WM provides functions to draw and update menus - so WM will provide the windows (ie draw them) entirely. The app will just specify the text for each menu item. NB. The menu-management API is implemented as a thin layer of code in a library that gets linked into your app, and a larger chunk of code in WM itsself that handles the actual layout and drawing of the menus. The great virtue of WM is that it enables pure-X applications to get almost all of the look (and a little of the feel) of NeXTstep with very little extra coding. Now - what I objected to in the original post (I apologise for the snappish tone of that post - my excuse is tiredess and irritability due to having flu, and the fact that I've spent hours wading through material to compose a FAQ, and finding that (in spite of all the info that's already available on the net) the myth persists that GNUstep is a. an X window-manager or b. an X toolkit) was that without explanation, you simply said - 'The window manager in those screenshots is Window Maker, I do believe.' This can easily be read as 'that's not GNUstep - it's WindowMaker'. If you don't believe me - check the slashdot archives where people have responded in precisely that way to previous GNUstep snapshots. It can also be read as implying that Window Maker is mostly responsible for the snapshots - which is a little unfair - especialy since in at least one of the snapshots there does not appear to be a single pixel that's drawn by the window manager.
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:37:11 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:38:04 CDT 15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... In article <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net>, genny@ccms.net (Gennica Hamilton) wrote: >Congratulations Macintosh! > >Today, Jan 24th is the Macintosh's 15th Birthday!!!!!!! > >And to Celebrate, Apple Released 2 New Wonderful Advertisments!!! > >Check them out... The new "Color" one is PERFECT for this Celebration!!!!!! > >It's such a catchy tune!!!!!!!!! > > >All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html > > >Colors -> The Mac Birthday Song! > >http://www.apple.com/main/media/colors/colors00.mov > > >Open Minded -> Begins the first PC to Macintosh mass migration!!!!!!!! > >ftp://ftp.apple.com/web/television/openminded/openmd01.mov > > >--- > >PS: If macintosh were a child, we must admit the early teen years were a >little rough... but NeXT year, when Macintosh turns 16, it will learn by >driving a shiny new car called OSX... woooossssh! Here comes the "Real >Superhighway"... -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, in the White House?" Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone together." Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica blew him!
From: casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <casper-2501990555180001@192.168.1.3> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Organization: Computer Geeks R Us Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:55:02 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 04:55:56 CDT In article <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>, "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> wrote: >Apple have never been going out of business. > >Apple's doom has been predicted for the last 10 years, and it never came. > >It never will. I was referring to those predictions. Apple's demise has been predicted by many, many people for years. >Simon Wright. > > > >Tim Scoff wrote in message ... >>15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just >>a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... >> >>In article <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net>, genny@ccms.net (Gennica >>Hamilton) wrote: >> >>>Congratulations Macintosh! >>> >>>Today, Jan 24th is the Macintosh's 15th Birthday!!!!!!! >>> >>>And to Celebrate, Apple Released 2 New Wonderful Advertisments!!! >>> >>>Check them out... The new "Color" one is PERFECT for this >Celebration!!!!!! >>> >>>It's such a catchy tune!!!!!!!!! >>> >>> >>>All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html >>> >>> >>>Colors -> The Mac Birthday Song! >>> >>>http://www.apple.com/main/media/colors/colors00.mov >>> >>> >>>Open Minded -> Begins the first PC to Macintosh mass migration!!!!!!!! >>> >>>ftp://ftp.apple.com/web/television/openminded/openmd01.mov >>> >>> >>>--- >>> >>>PS: If macintosh were a child, we must admit the early teen years were a >>>little rough... but NeXT year, when Macintosh turns 16, it will learn by >>>driving a shiny new car called OSX... woooossssh! Here comes the "Real >>>Superhighway"... >> >>-- >>Tim Scoff >>casper@nb.net >><http://www.nb.net/~casper/> >> >>Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, >in the White House?" >>Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone >together." >>Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica >blew him! -- Tim Scoff casper@nb.net <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, in the White House?" Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone together." Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica blew him!
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 25 Jan 1999 10:55:48 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <78hijk$9ct$2@hecate.umd.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> Michael Peck (michael.peck@ericsson.com) wrote: : Peter wrote: : > A comodity is a comodity. The PCs are very close to becoming comodity : This is a ludicrous notion. PCs are very close to becoming commodities? : Interesting, which industries are less commodity-like than computing : technology? Must be that fast-moving textile industry. Or the : feature-driven agricultural market. : > items which mean that the Manufacturers will have to differetiate their : > "comodity " product from the competitors. : This is tautological. Differentiation is *always* necessary. The problem : with commoditization is that differentation becomes *difficult*, and : brand becomes more necessary. This is not a problem with PC products. In : fact, PC products are less commodity-driven than ever. Once upon a time, : you bought a VGA video card, and that was it. Nowadays, you have more : features-based differentiation than ever before. There are countless : examples of the same. : > So with this in mind the : > analogy is not that bad. : The analogy is horrible. I don't care what they put in my soft drink : container, as long as it's fizzy, the right color, and it tastes like : sugar water, just like any other soft drink. Drop-in replacements for : Sprite, like Slice and 7-Up, are generally acceptable. They must be, : since if you ask for Sprite, KFC will ask you "Is Slice okay?" What am I : going to do, argue with the restaurant personnel for the features I want : in my soft drink? "Could you please color it sludge-brown for me, so it : looks more like Coca-Cola?" : I don't care whose name is on my milk as long as it's 2% milkfat. I : don't care whose name is on my tuna fish. I don't care whose name is on : my stapler, or my pens, or my tape dispenser, or my coffee mug, or my : cereal bowl, or my plastic dishwares, or my notepad, or my socks. : Those are commodities. Computers are not. Not quite yet, but computers are well on their way of becoming just like any other consumer electronics item now. When we walk into a store to buy a portable CD player, or a walkman, or fill_in_your_favorate_consumer_electronics_item_here. Often times, we make a sort of multi-dimensional give-take process with our buying choice. We do compare on features, but sometimes, we give in to the irrational, and buy one product over the other, because we perceive the quality/feature to be roughly comparable (or maybe not), and there is something about the product that cannot be quantized, which we end up using as the basis of our purchasing decision. (Meaning that when asked "Why did you choose this item?", the reply is, "I just like it") What Apple/SJ tapped into, is this part of the irrational purchasing urge. With the price getting lower, it is easier to make these decisions based not on MHz or MByte, but color or shape. Obviously, even at $1000 each, not everyone can afford to buy a computer just based on the look and feel of it, but at $500 each, more of the focus will shift to the look/feel/personal preference, and at $100 each, even more. My feeling is that the lower end of the computer segment will begin to morph and merge with the consumer electronics industry, and a lot of things will change, and more of the qualities present in the slae/purchase of $200 VCR's and $100 CD players will show up in the $500 computers. For the mid/High end, it'll be business as usual for a while longer. We'll still chew over the MHz and MByte, so all is not lost. : MJP -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: Dave Urwin <dave.urwin@cableinet.co.uk> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,alt.news.microsoft,microsoft.public,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: `á.üü.áŦø`á.üü.áŦ Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `á.üü.áŦø`á.üü.áŦ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:32:39 +0000 Organization: Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet) Message-ID: <36AC5654.B98732FA@cableinet.co.uk> References: <genny-2401991736330001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36AC065B.1F0A4107@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 1999 11:31:27 GMT HR Pufnstuf wrote: <SNIP> > and why > would mac make a 20th anniversary mac in 1997 when today is the 15 > b'day. could you explain this one? I'll gladly explain that one. The 20th anniversary mac commemorated 20 years of Apple Computer, *the company*, not the Apple Macintosh computer. Apple made various computers, including the Apple II series and the Lisa, during the 7 years or so before they launched the Apple Macintosh - which happened 15 years and one day ago. Hence the 15th birthday stuff. All the best, Dave
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:21:05 +0100 Organization: nonewhatsoever Message-ID: <1dm3eqk.dsqyf15zzu88N@pc19f8454.dip.t-online.de> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <joe.ragosta-1901991547210001@wil104.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? <snip> > Actually, Apple reported that the price difference is around $80 on an > iMac after accounting for taxes. It was reported on Macintouch yesterday, > IIRC. Err, Joe - that *is* (around) 15% ;-) Lars T.
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:05:26 +0100 Message-ID: <slrn7aksem.oba.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It was the Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:34:02 GMT... ..and Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > That is something that has been talked and talked and talked and > talked and talked and talked and talked about. Yes. It's a frequently rehashed topic. That's why I put sections about "Apple must cooperate with us" and "Don't we need company <foo>'s commercial GUI?" in the list. mawa -- Matthias Warkus | mawa@iname.com | Dyson Spheres for sale! My Geek Code is no longer in my .signature. It's available on e-mail request. It's sad to live in a world where knowing how to program your VCR actually lowers your social status...
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:14:11 +0100 Organization: The Computer Society at Lund Message-ID: <78hn6j$t09$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <joe.ragosta-1901991547210001@wil104.dol.net> <1dm3eqk.dsqyf15zzu88N@pc19f8454.dip.t-online.de> NNTP-Posting-User: cb In article <1dm3eqk.dsqyf15zzu88N@pc19f8454.dip.t-online.de>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?= <Fam.Traeger@t-online.de> wrote: >Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > >> In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: >> >> > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, >> > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price >> > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? ><snip> >> Actually, Apple reported that the price difference is around $80 on an >> iMac after accounting for taxes. It was reported on Macintouch yesterday, >> IIRC. > >Err, Joe - that *is* (around) 15% ;-) Is it ? The US price for an iMac is US$1199; if the price difference is indeed approximately US$80, then this price difference amount to 80 / 1199 == .0667 == 6.67 % of the original rice of an iMac - i.e., less than half of the 15% figure quoted. >Lars T. // Christian Brunschen
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Message-ID: <petrich-2501990419140001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <slrn7anoet.p4c.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D15F5F-37194@206.165.43.129> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:15:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 04:15:31 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <B2D15F5F-37194@206.165.43.129>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: > DId you forget OpenDoc, GX, and so on? And what did Apple do with them when they came out? Next to nothing. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dm6cvv.rir28znyxe7N@pppsl944.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:43:54 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:43:05 -0600 Mike Zulauf <mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu> wrote: > In article <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net>, > edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > > > Mike Zulauf <mazulauf@atmos.met.utah.edu> wrote: > > > > So just when did Copland ship? > > > > Incrementally from 7.5.5 to 8.5.1. Why don't you know this? Too busy > > spouting off to bother with the truth? > > Have you seen the White Paper? Nope. Why should I? I didn't know about it when I bought my Mac, and it's a dead issue now. > Do you know what was planned for Copland? Only by some magazine article references. > 8.5.1 _is not_ Copland. Copland was to be fully native, have preemptive > multitasking, and so on. Nobody else says that Copland has shipped. Why > do you? Not all of it shipped, but many pieces did. That's why I said that it shipped incrementally. You should try reading this news group a little more closely. You'd discover a lot more people than me saying the same things. Are you a relative of M. Rassbach? Like him you are too busy looking at past, bygone issues to see how the things you want are being made *today*. So put the Copland drum away, would ya? You've been beating it long enough. Throw it on top Cyberdog/OpenDoc, the Newton, and the eMate, and forget it. > Mike -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss.@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nos-pam> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:20:44 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <78hnis$kq5$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: >For some reason, Apple has decided to ship MacOS X Server in Europe in April. > >Thanks Apple! I joined the developer program in April last year, in >epectation of Rhapsody. I completely wasted that money (only MacOS crap, no >information whatsoever, only DR2 in summer 98) since any deal for developers >will probably only arrive after my membership expires. Come on Gerben, don't be ungrateful. We got those nice CDs with the Conference quicktimes on them. And I seem to remember there even was a WebObjects related PDF included at one time. Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:08:56 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2501990808570001@wil123.dol.net> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <joe.ragosta-1901991547210001@wil104.dol.net> <1dm3eqk.dsqyf15zzu88N@pc19f8454.dip.t-online.de> In article <1dm3eqk.dsqyf15zzu88N@pc19f8454.dip.t-online.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote: > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > > > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > > > > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > > > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > > > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > <snip> > > Actually, Apple reported that the price difference is around $80 on an > > iMac after accounting for taxes. It was reported on Macintouch yesterday, > > IIRC. > > Err, Joe - that *is* (around) 15% ;-) Let's see: $80 / 1299 = 6.2% Even if you use the new list price: $80 / 1199 = 6.7% You might want to take a math course. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: genny@ccms.net (Gennica Hamilton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <genny-2501991157180001@ppp63.ccms.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> Organization: ......./........ NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:57:20 EDT Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:57:17 -0600 Here is Steve's letter celebrating the 15 great years... Go Apple! Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:49:05 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Jobs <sjobs@apple.com> Subject: Macintosh Turns Fifteen Fifteen years ago today, on January 24, 1984, Apple launched the first Macintosh at Flint Center in Cupertino, California. Its revolutionary ease of use made computing accessible to "the rest of us", and its infusion of graphics and typography placed the Macintosh at the intersection of computer science and liberal arts. The Macintosh went on to become the second revolution in personal computing (the Apple II was the first), and its revolutionary ideas and benefits spread beyond Apple - they have changed the face of an entire industry and touched hundreds of millions of people around the globe. Apple has a lot to be proud of here. While I am not normally one to look back, today is a good day to remember Apple's legacy, which is to bridge the gap between sophisticated technology and "the rest of us" who make up most of humanity. Its our job to make complex technology easy to use and fun to use. The need for this bridge is even greater today than it was in 1984 when the Macintosh debuted. Back then, users didn't have to deal with the complexities of connecting to networks and the Internet, setting up email, managing device drivers and init files, and all of the other things that drive today's computer users mad. The computer world shows no signs of getting simpler as we enter the coming century. And no other company has yet taken Apple's place as the bridge builder. As we return to our roots and once again begin delivering simpler and better ways to use computers, Apple's future looks both bright and secure. Its been an amazing journey so far, yet we have barely begun. Steve -- Remember to Check Out: > >All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html > > > > > >Colors -> The Mac Birthday Song! > > > >http://www.apple.com/main/media/colors/colors00.mov > > > > > >Open Minded -> Begins the first PC to Macintosh mass migration!!!!!!!! > > > >ftp://ftp.apple.com/web/television/openminded/openmd01.mov > > > > > >--- > > > >PS: If macintosh were a child, we must admit the early teen years were a > >little rough... but NeXT year, when Macintosh turns 16, it will learn by > >driving a shiny new car called OSX... woooossssh! Here comes the "Real > >Superhighway"... > > -- > Tim Scoff > casper@nb.net > <http://www.nb.net/~casper/> > > Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, in the White House?" > Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone together." > Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica blew him!
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:50:21 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36ACAEDD.7B1B8B8A@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ross Bernheim wrote: > You miss the point, while you can customize and specialize a PC for 3D > game playing or such, Businesses buy an awful lot of PC's as comodity > items like unto tape dispensers. They specify the CPU and speed, memory, > minimum disk size and generic video card, keyboard, display, and network > card. Brand is immaterial to them, only price counts, as with any > comodity. Reread the last two sentences carefully. > I have to put up with this mentality and the resultant miserable results > at work. There I have to use what they give me, at home I get to use my > Mac! Great! At Ericsson I have to use an underpowered SPARC 5, but when I get home I get to use my PC. Same deal. It doesn't make either the SPARC 5 or my PC a commodity item. MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:14:22 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36ACB47E.C41A7051@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <1dm50z3.16rek15wxaj16N@oak-usr1-34-34.dialup.slip.net> <kindall-2401991822060001@nic-c50-203.mw.mediaone.net> <slrn7anoo2.p4c.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt Kennel wrote: > PC's are bags of commoditized components. Which, exactly? The...video card? That's a commodity? How about the sound card? I'm sorry, did you mean that speakers, monitor, mouse, and keyboard are commodities? Cases? Power supplies? These are commodities? > And if a shopper buys bananas, apples, milk and ''american light lager'' beer > in a certain ratio, does this mean that the "shopping bag+contents" has > no relation the underlying commoditized markets? It just means that calling full shopping bags "commodities" is stupid and nonsensical. > That the economics has > radically changed because some shoppers want 2 apples per banana and others > want just one? No. As I said, nonsensical. MJP
From: elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: mac on tv Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:53:52 -0500 Organization: international sand club Message-ID: <36ACAFB0.60FE4558@nospam.geocities.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> <36A6AB2F.B6A87051@nospam.geocities.com> <radparker-2401991840230001@exp107.nc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Al Iverson <radparker@radparker.com> Al Iverson wrote: > Thankss, but did you really need to post that 3 times? The next time > you're out for a bout of mac trashing, perhaps you could figure out how to > operate your Windoze box properly. Thank you very much for the public lecture, but it was a Netscape error, not Windows just so you know. Geez.. here's a quarter, go buy a sense of humor. -elvina
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:36:20 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2501991336210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> In article <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > When I'm at work (i.e. not using a Mac), and we need a new Wintel > > machine, we don't care so long as it has a xxx MHz PII, a yy GB HD, a > > decent graphics card with zz MB VRAM/SDRAM/SGRAM, 10/100 Ethernet and a > > qq inch monitor. > > Well, gosh. That seems like an awfully significant number of features > and variables for a commodity. Number of specs does not preclude it from being a comodity Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 25 Jan 1999 19:24:45 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Distribution: world Message-ID: <78igdt$kc5$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> [I got a wierd error message on the first attempt to post, apologies if this is a duplicate.] Bernhard Scholz <scholz@leo.org> wrote: [Someone may have overstated the situation when they said:] : >face it: the next os was never as stable as linux is now ... : >and you not have smp ... what kind of os should this be? : Ha? Are you choking or just silly? I believe you are running : after the hype. : Linux has one big advantage --- and it's the disadvantage, too: : too many developements in parallel. And it has a lot of hype! Too much : hype! (Just think about the "cluster contest" which wasn't a cluster : in any way in the usual meaning of the word) There is an interesting relationship between hype and substance. Perhaps it is something like this: Hype -------------> Waste Energy ^ | | v Ignored Opportunity <------- Substance I'm not sure anything good can survive without Hype, but too high a Hype to Substance ratio is a killer. I did notice a fair amount of substance in the last Linux Weekly News (a _very_ good read at http://lwn.net): - Compaq will start selling Linux-installed servers in the US and Japan - HP will start selling Linux-installed servers in Japan - Gateway will start selling Linux installed machines later this year If these people were anouncing MacOS X Server installs it would make for some good Apple-hype. I don't think that would be unfair at all. John
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:53:53 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36ACCBD1.30D317CF@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2501991336210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > Number of specs does not preclude it from being a comodity > > Peter Actually, Peter, it does. http://www.m-w.com "Main Entry: com*mod*i*ty 1c : a mass-produced unspecialized product" MJP
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple loosing in corporate to Dell/NT Date: 25 Jan 1999 20:34:38 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-250119991435217632@140.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <369E74B9.61FAC752@mediaone.net> <znu-1401992244100001@sdn-ar-004nynyorp322.dialsprint.net> <joe.ragosta-1501990959490001@wil100.dol.net> <macghod-1501991420280001@ts015d08.lap-ca.concentric.net> <leperkuhn-1501992010290001@sdn-ar-001riprovp247.dialsprint.net> <77qftt$jbf$3@nnrp02.primenet.com> <slrn7af6ct.3ik.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <78haom$nqh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <78haom$nqh$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: > > People who are "delicate" stay in bed with sheets pulled up to their chin. > www.yeahright.com/steve_jobs_in_bed_with_kenneth_starr.gif --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:09:33 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7apncd.too.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <slrn7anoet.p4c.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D15F5F-37194@206.165.43.129> NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:09:33 GMT On 24 Jan 99 23:37:56 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote: :Matt Kennel <SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com> said: : :> :>Compare to Sun: Bill Joy setup shop in Aspen, CO with a few very :>bright people, to do something very good with Java. This was quite :>approved and quite intentional. The result (Jini, Javaspaces et al) is :>getting some quite deserved good press, and shows the kind of forward :>thinking architectural innovations that Apple hasn't shown since, :>maybe 1985, with a small exception in Quicktime. : :DId you forget OpenDoc, GX, and so on? No. Those are good examples of excessively baroque and heavyweight implementations of generally boring concepts expressed in inadequate langauges. Maybe some of the NewtonOS was good. And Hypercard coulda been the web, but that petered out in the mid-80's too as the best people left. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:21:43 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Distribution: world Message-ID: <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scholz@leo.org In <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Bernhard Scholz wrote: > Kalle NŲslund <m98kalle@ibg.uu.se> wrote: > >>* Linux doesn't recognize memory >64MB until 2 month ago (kernel > >>>2.0.35) > > > >This is incorect, as you probably know, the kernel didnt do this > >automatic, you had to append a line saying mem=128mb, if you had 128mb > >of ram. the way you write makes it sound like the kernel coulden use > >more than 64mb, witch it of cuarse have been able to before 2.0.35 > > > >>* distribution packages are incompatible too > > > >have you ever used ALIEN, a program tha converts the different package > >formats ? I do agree that it is sad that there are several package > >formats but this dont present a real problem, first you can get nearly > >all programs in all used package formats, and if not you can use > >alien. > > > > You are correct in every sense, but it also shows the problem: > on Linux there is a solution nearly for everything: but you have > a) to find it > b) hack some stuff (like the mem line) > c) know what you are doing. > d) different distributions handle the same thing in a different way. > > Conclusion: it's in no way user friendly and NEXTSTEP/OpenStep etc. > always showed how it could be handled perfectly differently. The NeXT > people thought about the user interaction, the Linux people think > about their OS capabilities. > > Many greetings, > > Bernhard. Bernhard, While I respect others opinions there is one place that NeXTstep/Openstep has failed miserably and that is with regards to traditional UNIX services. Try configuring your box to serve DNS or do something more than the traditional Sendmail setup and you'll see what I mean. The fact that netinfo must be synced with these services can cause more problems than it cures. Sure you have to do similiar things on Linux to admin those features - but please don't sit on a high horse and say NeXTstep/Openstep does everything 'perfectly'. Sure it could have been done better - and would have - if ..step had made it as a mainstream OS, or even had a moderate 10x more acceptance/usage.. But it didn't and hasn't That is water under the bridge.. In UNIX you still have to 'know' what you are doing in many ways.. Oh did I mention PPP.. I'm sorry Steve but I think many people still consider PPP on ..step to not be PnP.. And this is not because your efforts to get us PPP on ..step havn't been less than heroic.. In all situations there will be uses that require more than simple tinkering. MS hides this from you sometimes pleasurably sometimes nightmarisly, in many UNIXs at least it is reasonably easily found, in Linux - perhaps a bit more obscure in some cases (due to the radical amount of development going on).. In many of the cases (particularly UNIX) there is enough information in newgroups and the web to provide valuable assistance.. No it's not PNP. But then again most UNIX users arn't novices. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: "John T. Folden" <jtfolden@erinet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: GNUstep Screenshots Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:50:29 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <78ip5m$5pc$1@news.erinet.com> References: <36A8CA10.B9D5FA8@mediaone.net> <78aj43$5ra$1@news.erinet.com> <36a9e675.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78dqos$qqc$1@news.erinet.com> <36ab4408.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> <78frg8$dq4$1@news.erinet.com> <36ac3cd1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:53:58 GMT Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote in message <36ac3cd1.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net>... >was that without explanation, you simply said - > >'The window manager in those screenshots is Window Maker, I do believe.' > >This can easily be read as 'that's not GNUstep - it's WindowMaker'. If you don't >believe me - check the slashdot archives where people have responded in precisely >that way to previous GNUstep snapshots. > >It can also be read as implying that Window Maker is mostly responsible for the >snapshots - which is a little unfair - especialy since in at least one of the >snapshots there does not appear to be a single pixel that's drawn by the window manager. I think what this really comes down to is the fact that you EXPECT me to read into what you typed despite the fact that it was technically incorrect wording and your second mistake was that you read more into my simple statement of fact than was there... Anyway, apology accepted... let's move on shall we?
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:23:27 -0700 Organization: Stone Entertainment Message-ID: <stone-2501991523270001@rc-pm3-1-42.enetis.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news> In article <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news>, look@my.sig (Michael J. Stango) wrote: > In article <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) > wrote: > > >15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just > >a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... > > If the Mac is a toy, what does that make the Wintel boxes everyone's buying > almost exclusively to play games? > ~Philly MacOS is Lego. Windows is Duplo. Both toys, but one slightly more sophisticated and less clunky than the other. -Kevin Stone "To err is human. You need a computer to really fuc& thinks up." - Cyber City Oedo
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dm6sj5.1yn47r9fit1qaN@pppsl835.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:53:26 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:52:38 -0600 Chris Black <c@c.com> wrote: [snip]. > > I doesn't really matter to me when Windows 2000 ships as It matters to the people who can't get it. It matters to people who don't like to hear unavailable products spoken about like everybody has them. The ante has been upped yet again. Mac OS against Win 95... I mean Win 98... I mean Win NT 4.0... I mean Win NT 5.0.... I mean Win 2000... I mean Win 2001... I mean... > I already have > it installed and running smoothly on two of my machines. Hmmm...Mac owners run applications smoothly, but PC owners run OSes smoothly...yes, I see. > In the mean time > I also have NT4 workstation and server (both modern OSs, unlike the > MacOS) purring along as well. Care to compare the price and hardware support of those to Mac OS? > BTW MacOSX server was supposed to ship > about a year ago in the form of Rhapshody, so don't give me that "Apple > has been on track" gibberish. Mac OS X server was just release by Steve Jobs according to a blurb I saw in InfoWorld. > Copland anyone?? Microsoft Bob anyone? Blackbird? Modular Windows? Win 95 pen computing? > Ahh, looks like another > opportunity for a bet! Any welching macheads out there willing to take me > up on the bet that Win2000 will ship before OSX? So who gives a rat's ass when Win 2000 ships? It's still a very late Win NT 5.0 no matter what you call it now. > Chris -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.comm Subject: Re: mac on tv Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.comm Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:36:03 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Message-ID: <1dm77la.6bu7441lwwk5yN@roxboro0-056.dyn.interpath.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <MPG.11088eab81a2dfe89896a6@news.earthlink.net> <369fa4e0.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.11096b008deaf1c49896ac@news.earthlink.net> <36A3DC3C.A8F0E728@nospam.geocities.com> <1dluhxc.6ssuox1sl80bpN@newmimusr0-a72.mill.tds.net> <36A6AB2F.B6A87051@nospam.geocities.com> <radparker-2401991840230001@exp107.nc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> <36ACAFB0.60FE4558@nospam.geocities.com> ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 elvina <szerelem@nospam.geocities.com> wrote: > Al Iverson wrote: > > > Thankss, but did you really need to post that 3 times? The next time > > you're out for a bout of mac trashing, perhaps you could figure out how > > to operate your Windoze box properly. > > Thank you very much for the public lecture, but it was a Netscape error, > not Windows just so you know. Geez.. here's a quarter, go buy a sense of > humor. Would you care to explain the nature of the error? The only multiposting error I am aware of with current versions of netscape is in connection with posting and mailing. -- John Moreno
From: "Fester" <mch41@home.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <ce7r2.1435$0z5.1344@news.rdc1.pa.home.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:36:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:36:40 PDT Organization: @Home Network 150 Million to be exact. (In non-voting shares) I think it was said best on ZDTV the other night. They were discussing the predicted demise of apple. Leo Laporte said something along the lines of: They're not going out of business, but they've settled into a niche market, and will never again be a major player. -- ----------------------- ---==Fester==--- "If you try to fail, and you succeed, what have you done?" -Unknown Email at: mch41@home.com AOL IM: Fester2133 Webmaster of: http://www.mchenryinc.com/ Personal Page: http://24.3.98.206/ ==================================================== C Lund <clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no> wrote in message news:clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no... >In article <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> your right all thanks to your god bill gates > >*Your* god. not mine. > >> so how much did he spend to save apple > >He didn't "save Apple". > >> and point them in the right direction????? > >And he certainly never did that. > >-- > >C Lund >http://www.notam.uio.no/~clund/
Message-ID: <36AD07A6.8ACBC3DE@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <78a2pb$s2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:15:37 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:14:43 CDT spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > OSX will be, to all effects and purposes, OS X Server 2.0. If Apple continues > to sell something called OSX Server, it will most likely be OSX + > server-specific software like Appleshare and WebObjects. So, of course "OSX > Server" will then have the same transparent bluebox as OSX itself, as well as > carbon and all the rest. No, I don't think Carbon will be in OX X Server 2.x since their goal w/Server is to introduce *yellow box solutions*. This would additionally encourage lethargic developers to stop Carbon dev sooner. Amen! ;-) The sooner we transition to yellow/OS X the better! -Eric
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:32:38 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development (not) Message-ID: <78j2mq$f7j$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news> <stone-2501991523270001@rc-pm3-1-42.enetis.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 1999 00:36:42 GMT Interesting paradigm. Kevin Stone wrote in message ... >In article <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news>, look@my.sig (Michael >J. Stango) wrote: > >> In article <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) >> wrote: >> >> >15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just >> >a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... >> >> If the Mac is a toy, what does that make the Wintel boxes everyone's buying >> almost exclusively to play games? >> ~Philly > >MacOS is Lego. Windows is Duplo. Both toys, but one slightly more >sophisticated and less clunky than the other. > >-Kevin Stone >"To err is human. You > need a computer to > really fuc& thinks up." > - Cyber City Oedo
From: clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C Lund) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:28:07 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Message-ID: <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> In article <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: > your right all thanks to your god bill gates *Your* god. not mine. > so how much did he spend to save apple He didn't "save Apple". > and point them in the right direction????? And he certainly never did that. -- C Lund http://www.notam.uio.no/~clund/
From: crc3419@DELPHI.com (Jeremy Crabtree) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=AF`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`_Happy_15th_Birthday_-_Macintosh!_`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`?= Date: 26 Jan 1999 02:05:18 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <slrn7aq55g.17n.crc3419@ItMightBeAServer.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> [SNIP] It's been 15 years, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate the current state of the art in interface design? http://www.acm.org/cacm/AUG96/antimac.htm -- "Being myself a remarkably stupid fellow, I have had to unteach myself the difficulties, and now beg to present to my fellow fools the parts that are not hard" --Silvanus P. Thompson, from "Calculus Made Easy."
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Europe is 15% more expensive than Apple US. Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:32:12 +0100 Organization: nonewhatsoever Message-ID: <1dm71fy.1wbpr705mxfkcN@pc19f8462.dip.t-online.de> References: <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl> <joe.ragosta-1901991547210001@wil104.dol.net> <1dm3eqk.dsqyf15zzu88N@pc19f8454.dip.t-online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 Lars Träger <Fam.Traeger@t-online.de> wrote: > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > > > In article <F5rxpD.Guz@RnA.nl>, Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl wrote: > > > > > As can be seen on the Apple Stores. I can understand a small difference, > > > depending on where the machines are built (prepare for dollar/euro price > > > fluctuations) and transport cost. But 15% more expensive? > <snip> > > Actually, Apple reported that the price difference is around $80 on an > > iMac after accounting for taxes. It was reported on Macintouch yesterday, > > IIRC. > > Err, Joe - that *is* (around) 15% ;-) No it's not. It's only 7%. Sorry. OTOH, the best price for the iMac is ca. 50 DM (28$) below Apple's official price - compared to the US or other Macs this is a joke. Lars T.
From: "Jeremy" <jeremy@powr.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:17:42 -0600 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Message-ID: <78i5g4$m1n@enews2.newsguy.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> As long as people still think that in order to run a PC you have to use DOS (which most Mac users I've met say) Macs will always be around
From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <rbarris-2501991754260001@192.168.1.16> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc. Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:52:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:52:28 PDT In article <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: > yes he did > to all accounts Well "macncrap" has set the record straight. Thanks so much. While you're at it, don't leave out the $100M patent infringement money that Gates also graciously bestowed on Apple. Rob
From: "Todd" <goaway@emailmenot.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0700 References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news> <stone-2501991523270001@rc-pm3-1-42.enetis.net> Organization: Arizona Network Communications Message-ID: <78jdh2$oa5$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Kevin Stone <stone@stoneentertainment.com> wrote in message news:stone-2501991523270001@rc-pm3-1-42.enetis.net... >In article <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news>, look@my.sig (Michael >J. Stango) wrote: > >> In article <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) >> wrote: >> >> >15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just >> >a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... >> >> If the Mac is a toy, what does that make the Wintel boxes everyone's buying >> almost exclusively to play games? >> ~Philly > >MacOS is Lego. Windows is Duplo. Both toys, but one slightly more >sophisticated and less clunky than the other. I would say it is the other way around. MacOS would be Apple Duplo, since it really is easier than Microsoft Lego (But does that make it better?). Linux obviously would be Lego Rail systems, since it is "better" than Microsoft Lego 95 and 98, but debatable with Microsoft Lego NT. (I'm rambling again) :) Todd
From: "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: 26 Jan 1999 00:53:06 GMT Message-ID: <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> yes he did to all accounts C Lund wrote in message ... >In article <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> your right all thanks to your god bill gates > >*Your* god. not mine. > >> so how much did he spend to save apple > >He didn't "save Apple". > >> and point them in the right direction????? > >And he certainly never did that. > >-- > >C Lund >http://www.notam.uio.no/~clund/
From: "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:04:54 GMT Message-ID: <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> your right all thanks to your god bill gates so how much did he spend to save apple and point them in the right direction????? Simon WrightŪ wrote in message <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>... >Apple have never been going out of business. > >Apple's doom has been predicted for the last 10 years, and it never came. > >It never will. > > >Simon Wright. > > > >Tim Scoff wrote in message ... >>15 years of Apple's, "going out of business sale" because the Mac is just >>a toy that nobody wants. That's got to be a record...... >> >>In article <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net>, genny@ccms.net (Gennica >>Hamilton) wrote: >> >>>Congratulations Macintosh! >>> >>>Today, Jan 24th is the Macintosh's 15th Birthday!!!!!!! >>> >>>And to Celebrate, Apple Released 2 New Wonderful Advertisments!!! >>> >>>Check them out... The new "Color" one is PERFECT for this >Celebration!!!!!! >>> >>>It's such a catchy tune!!!!!!!!! >>> >>> >>>All 3 New Television Ads: http://www.apple.com/thinkdifferent/newads.html >>> >>> >>>Colors -> The Mac Birthday Song! >>> >>>http://www.apple.com/main/media/colors/colors00.mov >>> >>> >>>Open Minded -> Begins the first PC to Macintosh mass migration!!!!!!!! >>> >>>ftp://ftp.apple.com/web/television/openminded/openmd01.mov >>> >>> >>>--- >>> >>>PS: If macintosh were a child, we must admit the early teen years were a >>>little rough... but NeXT year, when Macintosh turns 16, it will learn by >>>driving a shiny new car called OSX... woooossssh! Here comes the "Real >>>Superhighway"... >> >>-- >>Tim Scoff >>casper@nb.net >><http://www.nb.net/~casper/> >> >>Prosecutor: "Mr. Clinton, were you and Ms. Lewinsky EVER alone, together, >in the White House?" >>Clinton (under oath): "No sir. To my recollection we were never alone >together." >>Analysis: Either he's lying or someone else was in the room while Monica >blew him! > >
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:44:03 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn7aq3uj.2v3.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn7aksem.oba.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> On Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:05:26 +0100, Matthias Warkus <mawarkus@t-online.de> wrote: >It was the Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:34:02 GMT... >...and Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: >> That is something that has been talked and talked and talked and >> talked and talked and talked and talked about. Apple already did it once. My Uni used to sell machines so equipped (sparcs). > >Yes. It's a frequently rehashed topic. That's why I put sections about >"Apple must cooperate with us" and "Don't we need company <foo>'s commercial >GUI?" in the list. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 26 Jan 1999 01:26:36 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > While I respect others opinions there is one place that > NeXTstep/Openstep has failed miserably and that is with regards to > traditional UNIX services. Try configuring your box to serve DNS or > do something more than the traditional Sendmail setup and you'll see > what I mean. The fact that netinfo must be synced with these > services can cause more problems than it cures. > > Sure you have to do similiar things on Linux to admin those features - > but please don't sit on a high horse and say NeXTstep/Openstep does > everything 'perfectly'. > I think we both agree, considering, that I don't think about xStep as a server OS. Notice that I use Linux everywhere I need a server OS :-) E.g. (I don't want to say it loudly, but I miss a MacOSX-Server box: the Peanuts-Archive now runs on a Linux-PC. (However it ran 8 years perfectly on a Cube)). On the other hand, most people think about Linux as a user-OS and in fact more people use Linux at home, than it is used on servers. (of course this is a logical thing, but most Linux users, think it's a good home-OS) In any case: Unix isn't easy to administrate, and NeXT did a perfect job on hiding nearly everything from the user for the users sake. It never was meant as a server OS. Of course you do run into problems making OS a heavily loaded Server, but it works and although not optimized for it, it works reliable enough. Linux still is far far away from hiding this stuff reliable (it works but ...) Now there will be MacOS-X and there is MacOS-X Server. If you ever tested a DR you'd noticed that they are even considering such issues like PPP (they ignored it on black hardware, because these boxes were targeted to networked environments) to target a single-user OS version. No. Nobody currently can convince me that there is any better Unix shell than MacOX-X Server on the market and that NEXTSTEP/OpenStep was the best predecessor. If MacOS-X will profit from the Unix benefits and still look like a traditional home-OS, this will be the future and all the Linux X11 stuff and hundreds of add-on tool-box libraries might finally become obsolete because you get well designed replacement. On the other hand, only time will show us the result. The only competitor in ease of use might be WindowsNT --- but everybody knows how limiting this platform is in mixed networks (and if not: you have to spend a lot more $) and how broken the shell around the very good kernel was designed by MS (I love the kernel, but hate the rest). I'm sure MS is spending millions of $ just to fix their decisions made in the past. Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.penauts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:06:33 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development (not) Message-ID: <78jmdc$5sq$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <look-ya02408000R2401992349370001@news> <stone-2501991523270001@rc-pm3-1-42.enetis.net> <78jdh2$oa5$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 1999 06:13:00 GMT >I would say it is the other way around. MacOS would be Apple Duplo, since it >really is easier than Microsoft Lego (But does that make it better?). Linux >obviously would be Lego Rail systems, since it is "better" than Microsoft >Lego 95 and 98, but debatable with Microsoft Lego NT. (I'm rambling again) In that case, MacOS would be analagous to a computer because I use it to get my work done. Simon Wright.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:35:20 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78juo8$a6s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm6cvv.rir28znyxe7N@pppsl944.chicagonet.net> In article <1dm6cvv.rir28znyxe7N@pppsl944.chicagonet.net>, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > Not all of it shipped, but many pieces did. That's why I said that it > shipped incrementally. You should try reading this news group a little > more closely. You'd discover a lot more people than me saying the same > things. Let's look at what you wrote. In your first sentance you state that not all of [Copland] shipped. In the second, you state that [Copland] shipped incrementally. Are you saying that we should consider something to have shipped when many of it's pieces have been shipped? That would be an interesting take. > Are you a relative of M. Rassbach? Like him you are too busy looking at > past, bygone issues to see how the things you want are being made > *today*. What do you use to guage Apple's reliability? I think that one of the best guages of future behaviour is past behavior. So looking at how and why they screwed up the Newton, Copland, OpenDoc, GX, etc. is important. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 25 Jan 99 19:22:35 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D27508-4ADBB@206.165.43.52> References: <slrn7apncd.too.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com> said: >:DId you forget OpenDoc, GX, and so on? > >No. Those are good examples of excessively baroque and heavyweight >implementations of generally boring concepts expressed in inadequate >langauges. Ah. The language-indepdendence of OpenDoc, with its initial interface in C++ was baroque, heavyweight and inadequate? GX, an object-based API useable in C, ditto? Display PostScript, on the other hand, has managed to survive quite handily and there are dozens of products in NeXT that are based on this innovative and useful graphics engine that will be available to millions of Mac users... And what is "baroque" about "GXDrawShape(aShape);"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: oberon@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx (Oberon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:28:45 -0800 Organization: I'd tell you but it's a secret, shhh... Message-ID: <oberon-2501991928450001@sji-ca1-240.ix.netcom.com> References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <78a2pb$s2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36AD07A6.8ACBC3DE@mediaone.net> In article <36AD07A6.8ACBC3DE@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" wrote: > No, I don't think Carbon will be in OX X Server 2.x since their goal > w/Server is to introduce *yellow box solutions*. This would > additionally encourage lethargic developers to stop Carbon dev sooner. > Amen! ;-) The sooner we transition to yellow/OS X the better! > > -Eric *Lethargic* developers? So let me see if I understand. When Apple wants to move to YB and developers say "Carbon, please" the developers are bad. When Apple wants to move to Java and developers say, "Objective-C, please" the developers are good. How about, "The sooner each developer can decide for themselves what is best for *them* the better!" -O ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oberon "Anyone who has begun to think places some portion of the world in jeopardy." -- John Dewey
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: No Apple "Enterprise" Message-ID: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:15:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:15:12 PDT Why does Apple still use the word "Enterprise"? G3's are nothing more than desktop machines. Apple has killed any possibility of supporting the true "Enterprise" markets of industrial rack systems, industrial servers, etc. Apple won't sell motherboards with G3's to make these systems upgradable, and won't release an already running (for internal use only) Mac OS X on Intel so at least their OPENSTEP enterprise customers can migrate to the new OS. Linux is now making inroads into very high end machinery, such as the Cobra RX 24 node render ranch running 16 Ghz of processing power. The amount of free publicity of some very high end equipment running Mac OS X would be worth thousands of times the value of some lost G3 sales. I know of several former OPENSTEP developers who are extremely pissed at how Apple is treating them and now are working with Linux/SmallTalk and have no interest in anything Apple does anymore. NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a few because of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have a clue about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me they were killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. Little do they know what really lies underneath the Mac UI on OS X. I have serious doubts if Mac OS X will be the right choice for our company because of configuration limitations for our system. I think Apple should hire me to run their "Enterprise" division...then you would see special upgrade boards for legacy industrial systems, huge processing nodes running tens of Ghz's in processing power, a retrurn to the OPENSTEP UI, a desktop Intel version (stripped down, and drivers for a few popular devices) to encourage migration. The amount of free press would be worth millions. But that's all a dream.....since Apple only seems interested selling toys these days...........G3's on a desk do not make an Enterprise system! I don't even want to talk about OS X's UI......... No wonder many NeXT employees chose not to work for Apple......they knew it would be the end to their dreams! Apple has their place in the market they are going after......but its time for us to look at alternatives for what really is "Enterprise". Who would have ever thought these solutions lie in "free" operating systems?
From: afman@student.tn.tudelft.nl (eNtER yOUR nAME:) Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Real Talent Re: M$: Really the Best Talent? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:22:02 GMT Organization: Casema Internet Message-ID: <36adce84.261882@news.casema.net> References: <36717987.21076075@news2.asan.com> <3671C70C.299F0F00@sagchip.com> <3671C95D.366D2F67@tone.ca> <3671fcae$0$226@nntp1.ba.best.com> <petrichF3uv7J.7w2@netcom.com> <76gmeq$9fm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org> <XyJBILxP#GA.243@pet.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 1999 14:17:07 GMT On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:49:19 -0600, "Nik Simpson" <ndsimpso@ingr.com> wrote: > >Bob Canup wrote in message <368CDFD5.F99F2354@hal-pc.org>... > >> >>A rhetorical point here: > >And a stupid one at that. > >> People who won't show you their source code generally >>have something to hide. Like if Microsoft would secretly using GPL'd code in NT - if that would be the case, that would force MS to publish all NT's code. (see www.linuxworld.com >> >Yes, their patentable ideas and algorithms. Just like Intel doesn't give >away the design schematics for x86 processors. Or they want to hide that in '92 they copy-pasted the FPU of the Pentium from the Alpha... (this is less speculation than above, because I heard the rumor from more people) Maarten
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:26:34 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> In article <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > G3's are nothing more than desktop machines. Apple has killed any possibility > of supporting the true "Enterprise" markets of industrial rack systems, > industrial servers, etc. > > Apple won't sell motherboards with G3's to make these systems upgradable, and > won't release an already running (for internal use only) Mac OS X on Intel so > at least their OPENSTEP enterprise customers can migrate to the new OS. In order to make use of multiple processors you need to have an OS that can deal with them. The current MacOS handles multiprocessing by use of a traffic cop processor that directs all jobs. This model is fine as long as the "traffic cop" processor does not get overloaded. In the future, OS X running on top of a MACH kernal should be quite capable of handling more processors w/o using traffic cop processors. It will be truely SMP capable. OS X on intel may be usedinternally but for public release it would require a lot of driver work nad Apple should not waste its resources developing an OS that will influence in a negative way ANY hardware sales. What it needs to do is have some true SMP hardware ready in the next year or so. This will give the customer a good way to upgrade and the ability to get phenominal processing power. > > Linux is now making inroads into very high end machinery, such as the Cobra RX > 24 node render ranch running 16 Ghz of processing power. 16 GHz? That is a very BAD way to describe a render farm. MHz is a really crappy way to describe the "ranch". > > The amount of free publicity of some very high end equipment running Mac OS X > would be worth thousands of times the value of some lost G3 sales. Very High End? What do you mean? For me a very high end machine would run Unicos. Very High end machines IMO have more than 20 processors. > > I know of several former OPENSTEP developers who are extremely pissed at how > Apple is treating them and now are working with Linux/SmallTalk and have no > interest in anything Apple does anymore. This is fine but one should never say never. Apples OS czar, Avie Tevanian, is the father of NextStep and he is converting the OS into an OS that will be distributed to a significantly larger base than NextStep ever was. > > NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a few because > of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have a clue > about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me they were > killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. Little do they know what really > lies underneath the Mac UI on OS X. Number of apps is not all that importnt for servers esp since OS X will be BSD 4.4 compliant. This means there are a LOT more programs than you think. Marketing peaple rarely understand the product completely. Do you think the marketing peaple for Intel have a clue about processor design? Do you believe that Microsoft marketing boys understand the intricacies of OS design? Obejective C is alive and well and so is the YB. It is a FACT that the YB APIs will be ported to and will run on the NT kernal. THIS IS NOT IN DOUBT. what is in doubt is how it will be distributed and how much it will cost. > > I have serious doubts if Mac OS X will be the right choice for our company > because of configuration limitations for our system. I think Apple should > hire me to run their "Enterprise" division...then you would see special upgrade > boards for legacy industrial systems, huge processing nodes running tens of > Ghz's in processing power, a retrurn to the OPENSTEP UI, a desktop Intel > version (stripped down, and drivers for a few popular devices) to encourage > migration. The amount of free press would be worth millions. This sounds sort of stupid. Who is going to design these boards? What particular systems are you going to upgrade? You will write drivers for ho many devices? If you just write a few drivers then you screw your customers by not offering them much choices on where they buy the peripheral parts. STOP WITH THE GHz stuff. I assume you are talking about intel processors but I do not know whether you are talking about PI, PII or even 486s. A lot of really powerful render farms use MIPs,alphas and Sparcs. All of these chips are very different and MHz is a bad way to descripe their power. > > But that's all a dream.....since Apple only seems interested selling toys > these days...........G3's on a desk do not make an Enterprise system! Toys make lots of money. When Apple laughed at the game developers in the late eighties and early ninties, they fell from grace and MS and Intel became the Leaders. > > I don't even want to talk about OS X's UI......... Why? The UI will change for the personal edition. As for the server, I am sure most of the powr users would simply prefer a CLI. > > No wonder many NeXT employees chose not to work for Apple......they knew it > would be the end to their dreams! NeXT engineers are the ones that stayed, it is the Apple engineers that where pushed out in mass. Just take a gander at the heads of the different divisions and you will see that many of them are from NeXT lineage > > Apple has their place in the market they are going after......but its time for > us to look at alternatives for what really is "Enterprise". Web Objects id the heart of Apples enterprise software at hte time and it is capable of being deployed on many differnt platforms. You are mistaking what is making the money at Apple's eterprise division with what the enterpris will become when Apple has "enterprise" hardware to sell. > Who would have ever thought these solutions lie in "free" operating systems? Free is good. Linux is great. But from a support point of view many IS manegers will balk. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:07:54 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78ki7j$p3u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <78a2pb$s2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36AD07A6.8ACBC3DE@mediaone.net> "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > No, I don't think Carbon will be in OX X Server 2.x since their goal > w/Server is to introduce *yellow box solutions*. Where did you get that idea? If Apple really wanted to encourage yellow-box solutions, they'd be selling OS X Server at a reasonable price; people who spend $1000 to buy it for server use aren't likely to be running lots of YB apps. You're unlikely to encourage yellow-box solutions, I would submit, by crippling the market for OSX Server. > The sooner we transition to yellow/OS X the better! No argument there. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, reluctant Windows NT user, future MacOS X user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36ADC4C7.F1E@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:36:04 -0500 From: roubaix@ibm.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Advice on buying my 1st NeXT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: IBM.NET Hello all, I am completely new to the NeXT world but I was considering purchasing a used NeXT station as my "learning ground." For those of you with experience, can you offer any suggestions, comments or pros/cons regarding buying this (or any) NeXT machine. I admit it, I am a newbie. Please e-mail me at ctodd@ci.omaha.ne.us or roubaix@ibm.net Thank you in advance. Cliff Todd
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:09:15 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2601991209150001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2501991336210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36ACCBD1.30D317CF@ericsson.com> In article <36ACCBD1.30D317CF@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Peter wrote: > > > Number of specs does not preclude it from being a comodity > > > > Peter > > Actually, Peter, it does. > > http://www.m-w.com > > "Main Entry: com*mod*i*ty > 1c : a mass-produced unspecialized product" Michael This is where we differ. I do not think that the addition of specs makes it all that specialized. Here goes the Car analogies.... I buy a car and use it for 5-8 yearts then I buy a new one. I have certain specs for the car I will purchase but I still consider the car to be a commodity becuase it is not a specialized product(In my view). It may have been considered specialized decades ago but not today. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: Steven Kan <steven@kan.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:43:45 PST Organization: SHINE Message-ID: <36ADFED0.B60@kan.org> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2501991336210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36ACCBD1.30D317CF@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2601991209150001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit He said, she said: [lots of stuff about how computers are/aren't "commodities"] I think we're all getting hung up on semantics here. Whether or not we agree that a computer is or is not "a commodity," why don't we discuss how we do and don't make decisions buying the damn things? The word we use is less important. Forget about the word. How do you (pl.) make your purchase decisions? Are you different in this respect from those around you? How much of the market do you and those like you represent? That would make for a more fruitful :) discussion. -- A rich man who hailed from Seattle #``````` Wrote Win95 to do battle, # ``````` But Mac users pity # ``````` The masses not witty # ``````` Enough to know Wintel's for cattle. #. ``````` ~ ~ . \_@_/ ``````` ^_@ o . V ``````` Steven "Rocket Man" Kan `-' - \_@_ ~ . ###### mailto:steven@kan.org V \ ~ . ###### http://www.kan.org ~ . #H2O## Everybody S.H.I.N.E. ~ .#POLO# Support Heterogeneity In Networked Environments ~ ~ ######
From: clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C Lund) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: 26 Jan 1999 17:22:24 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Message-ID: <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> In article <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: > yes he did > to all accounts To reiterate what somebody else posted in response to your stupid comment (billy G saving apple)... BG bought 150 mill worth of Apple stock. At that time, Apple had over 1 *billion* $US. The 150 mill from BG was hardly a plink in the bucket. Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to understand that billion >> million. -- C Lund http://www.notam.uio.no/~clund/
From: ev515o@hotmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Organization: City Of R'lyeh Message-ID: <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:50:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:53:35 EDT On 26 Jan 1999 17:22:24 GMT, clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C Lund) chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom: >In article <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> yes he did >> to all accounts > >To reiterate what somebody else posted in response to your stupid comment >(billy G saving apple)... > >BG bought 150 mill worth of Apple stock. At that time, Apple had over 1 >*billion* $US. The 150 mill from BG was hardly a plink in the bucket. > >Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to >understand that billion >> million. I'm afraid its a bit more complicated than that. That 1 billion (It was 800 million the first time I saw this argument. I predict that the amount of money Apple had, according to the Maccies, will follow the same curve as R E Ballard's number of Linux users and soon Apple will have had more cash than there was in the world. :)) was a cash reseve. They desparately needed operating funds. If they had dug that heavily into their reserves it would have caused a huge loss of confidence in the company's future. This would have led to a sell off of their stock fueling the already widespread belief that the company was doomed. If Jobs hadn't gone, hat in hand, to Microsoft they may very well have gone under. Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to understand that sometimes things are more complicated than a cursory glance takes in. "That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die." - Abdul Alhazred, Necronomicon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Message-ID: <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:29:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:29:47 PDT In article <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >would require a lot of driver work nad Apple should not waste its >resources developing an OS that will influence in a negative way ANY >hardware sales. What it needs to do is have some true SMP hardware >ready in the next year or so. This will give the customer a good way to >upgrade and the ability to get phenominal processing power. The drivers already exist because Apple has Mac OS X up and running on Intel .They would still be selling the boards, just not the rest of the machines. Only a few driver Intel drivers need to exist....there is no need to support every odd-ball device. >This is fine but one should never say never. Apples OS czar, Avie >Tevanian, is the father of NextStep and he is converting the OS into an OS >that will be distributed to a significantly larger base than NextStep ever >was. Perhaps....but the fact is Mac people don't have a clue about UNIX. Many who have acquired the skills and knowledge of NeXT's Objective-C tools and OS over the past 10 years have migrated to other platforms. Apple's own Mac OS X programmers express apprehension about trying to educate Mac people on custom configuration options. Command line for Mac people...I think not! >Number of apps is not all that importnt for servers esp since OS X will be >BSD 4.4 compliant. This means there are a LOT more programs than you >think. I'm talking about useful programs, not command line utilities. If you're talking BSD4.4 utilities who needs Mac OS X then? You might as well just run FreeBSD >Obejective C is alive and well and so is the YB. It is a FACT that the YB >APIs will be ported to and will run on the NT kernal. THIS IS NOT IN >DOUBT. Obviously.....but why are Apple's marketing people all saying otherwise? You would be sick if you heard what Apple's VP of World WIde Developer relations said privately to us at Macworld. >This sounds sort of stupid. Who is going to design these boards? What >particular systems are you going to upgrade? You will write drivers for >ho many devices? If you just write a few drivers then you screw your >customers by not offering them much choices on where they buy the >peripheral parts. Come on....popular peripheral parts are available everywhere......I recall I didn't have much of a problem installing DR2 on Intel....so what's the problem? ...and...umm...the boards already exist....straight out of a G3 machine. >Why? The UI will change for the personal edition. As for the server, I >am sure most of the powr users would simply prefer a CLI. It won't be anything like OPENSTEP ...we should have a choice to use what clearly is a superior UI. Also, I would be happy to pay the $20 licensing fee to Adobe for keep DPS. >NeXT engineers are the ones that stayed, it is the Apple engineers that >where pushed out in mass. Just take a gander at the heads of the >different divisions and you will see that many of them are from NeXT >lineage A lot of key NeXT engineers walked .....believe me.... >Web Objects is the heart of Apples enterprise software at the time and it >is capable of being deployed on many differnt platforms. You are >mistaking what is making the money at Apple's eterprise division with what >the enterpris will become when Apple has "enterprise" hardware to sell. You are missing my point completely.....only a short while ago Apple was selling OPENSTEP for Intel, including WebObjects. Some of their customers, made large commitments for their Enterprise installation (rack mounts etc.). Now Apple is saying to these people to lose their entire investments in these systems and replace everything with candy colored desktop G3's. Apple is also saying we won't offer you any help in migrating over to Mac OS X. Apple is saying we would let you, our former OPENSTEP Enterprise customers, install Mac OS X on your existing Intel based hardware, even though we have it up and running internally. When these customers ask to buy motherboards straight from Apple to make the migration easier on existing installations Apple says "no". Well Apple can go screw themselves! If this is the way they treat people who have invested heavily into their products then we are no longer interested in what they do. There are more attractive alternatives out there....not to mention "cheaper". Apple is a very difficult company to deal with!
From: "Abraham" <ab@twiguyt.twi.tudelft.nl> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:35:02 +0100 Organization: Delft University of Technology Message-ID: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> It seems that yellow box cross platform development with MacOS X server has been de-emphasized by Apple. The MacOS X Server page has been changed by Apple yesterday and the 'cross plaform development' phrase has gone ! Strange thing is however, that this phrase still appears at the MacOS X page..... Let's hope this doesn't spell the death of Yellow box for Windows runtime licenses. Abraham.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:16:55 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> In article <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > The drivers already exist because Apple has Mac OS X up and running on > Intel For all Harddrives out there ...for all modems out there... the list can go on and on Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:18:40 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2601991418400001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> In article <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > Perhaps....but the fact is Mac people don't have a clue about UNIX. Many who > have acquired the skills and knowledge of NeXT's Objective-C tools and OS over > the past 10 years have migrated to other platforms. Apple's own Mac OS X > programmers express apprehension about trying to educate Mac people on custom > configuration options. Command line for Mac people...I think not! This is a gross generalization. You would be surprised to find out that a lot of Mac eaple do know a *little about* Unix. CLI I THINK YES peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:22:25 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <slrn7apncd.too.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D27508-4ADBB@206.165.43.52> NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:22:25 GMT On 25 Jan 99 19:22:35 -0700, Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote: :Matt Kennel <SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com> said: : :>:DId you forget OpenDoc, GX, and so on? :> :>No. Those are good examples of excessively baroque and heavyweight :>implementations of generally boring concepts expressed in inadequate :>langauges. :Ah. The language-indepdendence of OpenDoc, with its initial interface in :C++ was baroque, heavyweight and inadequate? Unquestionably. Summary: an object system in C++ which isn't the C++ object system. Re-do everything from scratch, poorly. OpenDoc and Taligent share the same flaw. (And worse, why Taligent AND OpenDoc???) :GX, an object-based API useable in C, ditto? "An Object-based API usable in C" is exactly what's infested most of the Xt toolkit, which has in turn infested way too many X APIs. Fake objects suck. :Display PostScript, on the other hand, has managed to survive quite handily :and there are dozens of products in NeXT that are based on this innovative :and useful graphics engine that will be available to millions of Mac :users... There should be. It's a braindead corporate decision by the other A company. :And what is "baroque" about "GXDrawShape(aShape);"? -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: mr_organic@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4s & AltiVec Release? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:22:08 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78l146$6pj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36AABD22.8BA3075E@mediaone.net> In article <36AABD22.8BA3075E@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > Anyone have more details on Apple's G4s if they will initially come > w/AltiVec and the projected release date? The Mot says production > during the first half of 1999.... > Based on reports I've seen in AppleInsider, MacOSRumors, and other news sites, the G4's should make it into the "sawtooth" machines from Apple late this year. My guess is that they'll appear in the high-end models initially; Apple will probably stick with the G3 for the lower-end machines. > It seems that the G4/AltiVec is worth waiting for if the need is not > immediate. Imagine OS X on that new computer... > It does look cool. Check out the article on MacKiDo that explains the differences between MMX and AltiVec (http://www.mackido.com/Hardware/MMX_VMX.html). > Also see http://www.macspeedzone.com/4.0/G4news.html > > Thx, > -Eric > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 26 Jan 1999 21:02:18 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Distribution: world Message-ID: <78lagq$h44$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: scholz@leo.org In <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Bernhard Scholz wrote: > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > While I respect others opinions there is one place that > > NeXTstep/Openstep has failed miserably and that is with regards to > > traditional UNIX services. Try configuring your box to serve DNS or > > do something more than the traditional Sendmail setup and you'll see > > what I mean. The fact that netinfo must be synced with these > > services can cause more problems than it cures. > > > > Sure you have to do similiar things on Linux to admin those features - > > but please don't sit on a high horse and say NeXTstep/Openstep does > > everything 'perfectly'. > > > I think we both agree, considering, that I don't think about xStep as a > server OS. Notice that I use Linux everywhere I need a server OS :-) > E.g. (I don't want to say it loudly, but I miss a MacOSX-Server box: the > Peanuts-Archive now runs on a Linux-PC. (However it ran 8 years perfectly > on a Cube)). I have to disagree a bit here. I believe the NeXT was designed to be a server. Someone told me about a benchmark that black hardware was still pretty fast at compared to PC hardware - and "I think" it was task or context switching. Someone had a benchmark for it long ago.. Thing is when NeXT designed those boxes - and did all the Netinfo administrative 'simplifications' they were specifically to make a large Network easy to administer. Think about it, Device sharing, Printer, Fax, Filesystem (User space, and administration data), even displays were meant to be shared.. Even though in the sales brochures the NeXT was compared to a Mac it was meant to be a server class OS. Even the cubes, and the OS itself were intended to have SMP capability from the get go. > On the other hand, most people think about Linux as a user-OS and in > fact more people use Linux at home, than it is used on servers. (of course > this is a logical thing, but most Linux users, think it's a good home-OS) Hmmm. That's interesting because linus considered the user desktop to be the hardest place to conquer. I saw another comment from linus that said he thought the server was the easiest place for Linux to pentrate since the display and workspace functions arn't as critical as on the desktop. In my experience I've seen LInux on only a few desktops - most setups are server type. DNS, or backend database, some computation (mostly in edu). It is a rare user here that is using Linux as his desktop of choice. Oh the other biggie - NAT or IP/Masq is a big reason for Linux - but it's not on a lot of desktops. > In any case: Unix isn't easy to administrate, and NeXT did a perfect job > on hiding nearly everything from the user for the users sake. It never was > meant as a server OS. Of course you do run into problems making OS a > heavily loaded Server, but it works and although not optimized for it, it > works reliable enough. Linux still is far far away from hiding this stuff > reliable (it works but ...) If you mean OS as in Openstep - that may be true - but realize NeXT inc. was switching gears like a violinist switches finger positions.. They had lost the hardware and were focussing on software in the 93 on timeframes.. It's not just the OS but also the underlying hardware - to get really good performance those both have to be tuned well. In fact in many cases almost designed for such. But to say NS or OS isn't a server class OS I think is a stretch. I always had the feeling that NS was a server class OS with the absolute best Workstation class Desktop. The only feeling we got that NeXT didn't care about the Server end was when all the UNIX/BSD services didn't get the attention they needed. NeXTstep did hide a lot of the pains of UNIX from most admins - and in most standard direct IP/name based systems it was very good. Adding boxes to a network was as simple as dropping them on the LAN with the Netinfo Master, booting & typing a name. In those cases everything just worked. It is true that one didn't want to heavily load the boxes - but this was simply because the horsepower under the hood was Motorola 68K series while MIPS, Sparc, were churning out their series of heavy iron. In general I think we agree here - though I am just saying NS was intended as a all in one OS, server, desktop, development. And we all know in it's hayday those boxes served well. > Now there will be MacOS-X and there is MacOS-X Server. If you ever tested > a DR you'd noticed that they are even considering such issues like PPP (they > ignored it on black hardware, because these boxes were targeted to networked > environments) to target a single-user OS version. Look Sun and SGI did address PPP - eventually - but it took them a long time. Once NeXT dropped hardware - they didn't care. They darn well better address PPP in MacOS X whatever. There market is the desktop. Which confirms all I've been saying - and that is I have serious doubts whether Apple is very much interested in the Server markets at all. I will be happy to be pleasantly suprised in May. But I am by necessity skeptical that Apple has any serious intention to put out some serious SMP is still a very sore issue on many fronts. NeXT routinely held out like a carrot that SMP would be coming around the corner - this was what in 91-92 time frames. I understand many of the issues involved - but we are now in 1999 and still no SMP ..step boxes or MacOS X.. > No. Nobody currently can convince me that there is any better Unix shell > than MacOX-X Server on the market and that NEXTSTEP/OpenStep was the > best predecessor. If MacOS-X will profit from the Unix benefits and still > look like a traditional home-OS, this will be the future and all the Linux > X11 stuff and hundreds of add-on tool-box libraries might finally become > obsolete because you get well designed replacement. On the other hand, only > time will show us the result. The only competitor in ease of use might be > WindowsNT --- but everybody knows how limiting this platform is in mixed > networks (and if not: you have to spend a lot more $) and how broken > the shell around the very good kernel was designed by MS (I love the kernel, > but hate the rest). I'm sure MS is spending millions of $ just to fix > their decisions made in the past. Bernhard I think many of us agree that the Cathedral that NeXT designed is indeed one of the finest marvels. I don't think it's just the kernel or you'd be running MKLinux, etc. It's the whole user experience everything. It's the fact that NS was designed to be all three critical things. Server, Desktop(Workstation), and Development environment. It was designed to make ALL of the things one does with computers easy - sensical. At that job it succeeded. What failed was the hardware, and along with it the clear vision. Because of this what we knew as NeXTstep or Openstep has now been significantly bastardized, and will continue to be to placate Apple's core markets.. Fortunately Apple is stuck with this puppy and we will get a lot of the technology on newer hardware.. And I will keep saying this. As long as Apple has this NIH syndrome with regards to it's hardware and software - and indeed trys to force the full proprietary solution down our throats. They will continue to remain a niche company and if they are lucky will survive. But they will not grow. Linux isn't just a buzzword, opensource isn't a buzzword. They are here now. And are becoming a force to be reckoned with. Linux already has as many seats as Apple I suspect. And NT - well.. Take a look at SGI's new offerings lately. I loath NT and MS products. The damn shells, and workflow blow huge chunks. And crashes or hard hags. At least once per week. Plain nasty. I have one simple wish and that is that Apple finally come to its senses and follow through on Don Yacktmans OpenMach proposal. Open up the lower layers of the OS - excepting Apple specific hardware drivers - though I don't know what the bugaboo is all about most stuff on their motherboards is very standard - as contrary to SGIs new systems. I would also wish that Apple sell MacOS X (whatever) on x86 - they can call it Openstep 2000 (as per Don's suggestion) so as not to confuse the masses. Call it Mac if it's on PPC and Openstep if it's on something else simple as that. Let the benefits of PPC make themselves apparent on their own, and when the shift to IA happens Apple can be ready to take advantage of the cpu shift, and legacy effect to grab some of the new marketshare.. I'll tell you something though. I have a sneaking suspicion that once SGI gets the OpenGL drivers done for Linux - that Linux on those VW's is going to rock like hell.. I find the developments interesting. IBM - Apple MS - Intel - SGI/Cray Sun IBM develops the basic fabrication technologies - copper interconnects - HD technology - PPC - Apple just a little guy in my mind with a great OS etc. MS - the OS and 90% of the markets Intel - the cpu - 90%? of the markets SGI/Cray - technology, high performance design and expertise. The ensuing war will be interesting. Miniturization and low power favours PPC by a huge margin. The question ISs - is it too late? My suspicion - Yes since IA will utilize everything learned. We'll finally get to one cpu line, PPC I don't think will have a huge life beyond 2003-5 time frame. A last thought Bernhard. I hope you get MacOS X server to run peanuts on :) Frankly I was looking forward to MacOS X on x86 so I could put together a nice way to run 3.x and 4.x applications. Had Apple done that they still would have had my $$ attention. Now I'll just drool over SGI's boxes and keep an eye on Linux and GNUstep. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 26 Jan 1999 21:17:40 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <78lbdk$h44$5@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: henryb@aol.com In <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> Henry wrote: > In article <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: > > > >would require a lot of driver work nad Apple should not waste its > >resources developing an OS that will influence in a negative way ANY > >hardware sales. What it needs to do is have some true SMP hardware > >ready in the next year or so. This will give the customer a good way to > >upgrade and the ability to get phenominal processing power. > > The drivers already exist because Apple has Mac OS X up and running on > Intel .They would still be selling the boards, just not the rest of the > machines. Only a few driver Intel drivers need to exist....there is no need > to support every odd-ball device. As a few have suggested. They only need support a reasonable subset of devices. Firewire - Fibrechannel would be a pretty good place to start. > > >This is fine but one should never say never. Apples OS czar, Avie > >Tevanian, is the father of NextStep and he is converting the OS into an OS > >that will be distributed to a significantly larger base than NextStep ever > >was. > > Perhaps....but the fact is Mac people don't have a clue about UNIX. Many who > have acquired the skills and knowledge of NeXT's Objective-C tools and OS over > the past 10 years have migrated to other platforms. Apple's own Mac OS X > programmers express apprehension about trying to educate Mac people on custom > configuration options. Command line for Mac people...I think not! Too true. And I'd bet Apple would get a lot of help in abstracting necessary UNIX functions to pretty-friendly GUI interfaces - if only they'd get off their duff and commit to x86 support.. Gee and rather than screw the Enterprise and YB developers now they could get a thriving and growing Enterprise consumer base that would probably be chomping at the bit when the SMP PPC boxes come out. Screw em now and you can show them 1Ghz 4 way PPC and they won't get a crap in 6 months to a year. These are exactly the shops that will buy high end boxes. BTW: Did anyone see anything about MacOS X supporting IBM's Power series PPC boxes?? I thought I saw something about that somewhere. (Maybe a rumor) > >Number of apps is not all that importnt for servers esp since OS X will be > >BSD 4.4 compliant. This means there are a LOT more programs than you > >think. > > I'm talking about useful programs, not command line utilities. If you're > talking BSD4.4 utilities who needs Mac OS X then? You might as well just run > FreeBSD Very true.. Though if your going to go there - most would go with Linux. > >Obejective C is alive and well and so is the YB. It is a FACT that the YB > >APIs will be ported to and will run on the NT kernal. THIS IS NOT IN > >DOUBT. > > Obviously.....but why are Apple's marketing people all saying otherwise? You > would be sick if you heard what Apple's VP of World WIde Developer relations > said privately to us at Macworld. Because they are f&*Kin' idiots. > >This sounds sort of stupid. Who is going to design these boards? What > >particular systems are you going to upgrade? You will write drivers for > >ho many devices? If you just write a few drivers then you screw your > >customers by not offering them much choices on where they buy the > >peripheral parts. > > Come on....popular peripheral parts are available everywhere......I recall I > didn't have much of a problem installing DR2 on Intel....so what's the > problem? Very true. Though the whole SMP is still a nagging issue. I don't see why Apple couldn't support just one x86 SMP chipset/MB design. > ...and...umm...the boards already exist....straight out of a G3 machine. Yep. > >Why? The UI will change for the personal edition. As for the server, I > >am sure most of the powr users would simply prefer a CLI. Maybe maybe not.. NeXTstep had pretty good GUI interfaces for admin. Could be better - and much more encompassing (and would be if the developers were kept interested rather than pissing them off) > It won't be anything like OPENSTEP ...we should have a choice to use what > clearly is a superior UI. Also, I would be happy to pay the $20 licensing fee > to Adobe for keep DPS. Actually If we could keep DPS - even as seperate libraries - and choose the interface I'd pay an extra $50-100. It would allow for a lot of backward compatibility. > >NeXT engineers are the ones that stayed, it is the Apple engineers that > >where pushed out in mass. Just take a gander at the heads of the > >different divisions and you will see that many of them are from NeXT > >lineage > > A lot of key NeXT engineers walked .....believe me.... Of this I have no doubt. Many - MANY engineers walked. > >Web Objects is the heart of Apples enterprise software at the time and it > >is capable of being deployed on many differnt platforms. You are > >mistaking what is making the money at Apple's eterprise division with what > >the enterpris will become when Apple has "enterprise" hardware to sell. > > You are missing my point completely.....only a short while ago Apple was > selling OPENSTEP for Intel, including WebObjects. Some of their customers, > made large commitments for their Enterprise installation (rack mounts etc.). > Now Apple is saying to these people to lose their entire investments in these > systems and replace everything with candy colored desktop G3's. Apple is also > saying we won't offer you any help in migrating over to Mac OS X. Apple is > saying we would let you, our former OPENSTEP Enterprise customers, install Mac > OS X on your existing Intel based hardware, even though we have it up and > running internally. When these customers ask to buy motherboards straight > from Apple to make the migration easier on existing installations Apple says > "no". This is the whole point I've made over and OVER again. Not just me but many MANY others who really want to see Apple succeed but who are watching Apple piss it away.. For what? So they don't loose potential PPC sales now? Bad business decision IMHO. If PPC running MKLinux, or MacOS has better price performance/stability characteristics - tell me which do you think folks will choose? As long as Apple continues down the completely proprietary road with hardware and software - it won't matter. At least with MS you know you won't be left in a lurch, and neither with Intel hardware. With Apple you know neither not with software nor with hardware. > Well Apple can go screw themselves! If this is the way they treat people who > have invested heavily into their products then we are no longer interested in > what they do. There are more attractive alternatives out there....not to > mention "cheaper". Apple is a very difficult company to deal with! > Agreed. And they are - quite sucessfully I might add. Apple is not "Thinking Different" nor the more appropriate "Acting Different".. You know I just realized that the whole "Think Different" says nothing at all. Different than what? I have proposed that Apple should rather use the slogan. "Don't Think" cause they seem to be experts at it. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 26 Jan 1999 21:26:06 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <78lbte$h44$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: henryb@aol.com In <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> Henry wrote: > In article <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: > Oh one last note. Did anyone notice that IBM has pulled out of G4 development http://macweek.zdnet.com/1223/nw_somerset.html Here is a interesting quote: "There was no synergy between the processors IBM wanted to build and what Apple will need," said an industry insider. "AltiVec is important to a multimedia desktop machine, but it's irrelevant to a multiprocessing server." Now I have to look around and see if I can find any solid info on MacOS X will be running on IBM machines.. Or maybe Apple will try to use IBM cpus in high end and Motorola in low end.. And I thought Jobs pissed off the CEO of Motorola a while back by saying Apple didn't need Motorola for PPC?!! Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Message-ID: <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:11:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:11:36 PDT In article <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >In article <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > >> The drivers already exist because Apple has Mac OS X up and running on >> Intel > >For all Harddrives out there ...for all modems out there... the list can >go on and on > >Peter > Don't be silly.....I repeat....people had no trouble with DR2 on Intel. A few Intel drivers is better than nothing...at least those of us who understand which devices are supported would be able to have a smooth migration path onto Mac OS X, and after our existing hardware becomes obsolete, move onto G3 or G4 equipment. Also, Apple's G3 candy boxes are very limited for Enterprise installations.....Apple gives you no options. Take a look at this large installation...running on NT because at least the IT managers have hardware configuration options: http://www.generalmagic.com/portico/whatis/networkops.html Apple is "insane" to close this market off to their clearly superior OS X. It is in Apple's best interest to encourage installations such as this to migrate over...but who is going to scrap this kind of hardware for a child's playpen full of colorful toys?????? Apple is completely out of touch with reality in their twisted beliefs that companies are going to scrap $100K and up in Enterprise installations that are still right up there in performance. Apples own Web Site is run from 5 Intel machines using OPENSTEP/WebObjects......even they have no yet migrated over!!!!! Apple also has many Fortune 500 companies from NeXT and OPENSTEP....and I can tell you many of their IT managers are completely pissed at Apple's management right now!
From: "Sung" <sk68@cornell.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 26 Jan 1999 22:22:11 GMT Organization: Cornell University Sender: sk68@cornell.edu (Verified) Message-ID: <01be497a$9edbdf40$6366ec84@bigred> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> Henry <henryb@aol.com> wrote in article <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net>... > > A few Intel drivers is better than nothing...at least those of us who > understand which devices are supported would be able to have a smooth > migration path onto Mac OS X, and after our existing hardware becomes > obsolete, move onto G3 or G4 equipment. Also, Apple's G3 candy boxes are very > limited for Enterprise installations.....Apple gives you no options. > > Take a look at this large installation...running on NT because at least the IT > managers have hardware configuration options: > > http://www.generalmagic.com/portico/whatis/networkops.html > > Apple is "insane" to close this market off to their clearly superior OS X. It > is in Apple's best interest to encourage installations such as this to migrate > over...but who is going to scrap this kind of hardware for a child's playpen > full of colorful toys?????? > > Apple is completely out of touch with reality in their twisted beliefs that > companies are going to scrap $100K and up in Enterprise installations that > are still right up there in performance. > > Apples own Web Site is run from 5 Intel machines using > OPENSTEP/WebObjects......even they have no yet migrated over!!!!! > > Apple also has many Fortune 500 companies from NeXT and OPENSTEP....and I can > tell you many of their IT managers are completely pissed at Apple's management > right now! > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Apple cares about the workstation/server market with OSX. This is quite unfortunate, but I believe their main objective (and now starting to look like their only objective) is to use OSX technology to deliver a few important enhancements to core MacOS components that they believe is important for the desktop market. That is, Fortune 500 companies using NeXT and OpenStep technology aren't even in their radar, I think. Maybe a being a bit cynical, but now I think that OpenStep technologies have been relegated to a point where they exist only to enhance other Apple products but not to be marketed per se. Pretty depressing for the best system software ever made.... >
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> Message-ID: <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:33:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:33:10 PDT In article <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl>, "Abraham" <ab@twiguyt.twi.tudelft.nl> wrote: >It seems that yellow box cross platform development with MacOS X server has >been de-emphasized by Apple. > >The MacOS X Server page has been changed by Apple yesterday and the 'cross >plaform development' phrase has gone ! > >Strange thing is however, that this phrase still appears at the MacOS X >page..... > >Let's hope this doesn't spell the death of Yellow box for Windows runtime >licenses. > >Abraham. > > This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide Developer relations told us a Macworld ........ "YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" We were also told Objective-C will no longer be supported because Apple is pushing Java.....needless to say we all know what Mac OS X is heavily dependant upon. We all would have been beware off if NeXT had gone bankrupt and the OPENSTEP source code pushed into the public domain...at least the OPENSTEP community would have taken it in the direction it should have! ....how is GNUstep coming along?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Distribution: world References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78lagq$h44$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: <T8sr2.38$jP6.402166@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:24:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:24:35 PDT In article <78lagq$h44$4@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: >Frankly I was looking forward to MacOS X on x86 so I could put together >a nice way to run 3.x and 4.x applications. Had Apple done that they still >would have had my $$ attention. Now I'll just drool over SGI's boxes and >keep an eye on Linux and GNUstep. > >Randy Rencsok >rencsok or spammers at > ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com > >http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html > I will be joining that club too .......
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> <01be497a$9edbdf40$6366ec84@bigred> Message-ID: <aYrr2.35$jP6.402166@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:11:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:11:02 PDT In article <01be497a$9edbdf40$6366ec84@bigred>, "Sung" <sk68@cornell.edu> wrote: > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Apple cares about the >workstation/server market with OSX. This is quite unfortunate, but I >believe their main objective (and now starting to look like their only >objective) is to use OSX technology to deliver a few important enhancements >to core MacOS components that they believe is important for the desktop >market. That is, Fortune 500 companies using NeXT and OpenStep technology >aren't even in their radar, I think. Maybe a being a bit cynical, but now >I think that OpenStep technologies have been relegated to a point where >they exist only to enhance other Apple products but not to be marketed per >se. Pretty depressing for the best system software ever made.... > >> Its especially depressing that Apple is sitting on solutions which these people desperately need..... Apple's total disregard for their situations is sickening! It is this kind of arrogance that nearly destroyed Apple just a few years ago...... I wonder about internal fighting between Avi and the marketing people. To go from the "best system software ever made" to bastardizing it for "Blue Box" must be depressing from a developers point of view. Mac sucks...we have no need for it...its too bad we were all strung along for this time to discover Apple's true intentions.....otherwise we would developed on another OS 2 years ago. Somehow I knew Apple would screw up OPENSTEP when they bought NeXT....but I wanted to "believe"
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 26 Jan 99 17:11:05 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Matt Kennel <SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com> said: >"An Object-based API usable in C" is exactly what's infested most of >the Xt toolkit, which has in turn infested way too many X APIs. > >Fake objects suck. > And how do you call "real" objects from a non-OOP language? >:Display PostScript, on the other hand, has managed to survive quite handily >:and there are dozens of products in NeXT that are based on this innovative >:and useful graphics engine that will be available to millions of Mac >:users... > >There should be. It's a braindead corporate decision by the other A company. Really? That flies in the face of Apple's official statements about why they dumped DPS... Why didn't they use their own GhostScript instead? Surely Apple could have used their own internal code with a new name. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 27 Jan 1999 00:07:12 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78llbg$fqv$1@news.xmission.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 00:07:12 GMT henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > Apple is completely out of touch with reality [...] Understatement. But this has always been true. Out of some insane optimism, we wanted to believe that Apple was able to "think different". Fact is, I suspect that just getting them to do the "think" part would be too much to ask... > Apple also has many Fortune 500 companies from NeXT and > OPENSTEP....and I can tell you many of their IT managers are > completely pissed at Apple's management right now! I think that there are a lot of people here who have utterly *NO* idea just what the extent of this is. A few of the horror stories I've heard over the past few days are absolutely jaw dropping madness. It sometimes makes one wonder if the people at Apple who are responsible for sales, marketing, and business decisions got their degrees from Craker Jack boxes. Many of the big guys are fleeing Apple, and they'll NEVER return. Worse, they'll "tell their friends" and Apple will be locked out of the Enterprise for the next decade at least. Burning a corporate bridge doesn't just burn that one bridge; it tends to burn many more in the process and it seems few people here understand that. Furthermore, because Jobs' idea of "focus" is what we'd define as "narrowmindedness", that market isn't on his radar (for dumb!) and so he doesn't care about how badly they are screwed nor does he consider the long term implications, which will severely hamper Apple's long term chances at success. To be fair, a few aspects of the problem are beyond Apple's control, as a certain "A" company has decided to stick it to Apple in a really bad way. But Apple's chronically poor handling of the situations like this one has only exacerbated the problem. There _are_ things that they could do meet these people half way. Sometimes I'd like to mail Jobs a postcard with a view of the earth from space on one side and the phrase "Wish you were here!" on the other. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 27 Jan 1999 00:09:14 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78llfa$fqv$2@news.xmission.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 00:09:14 GMT henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > ....how is GNUstep coming along? Pretty well, to be honest. I think we should all start paying it a lot more attention...which means we should be supporting it in any way we can... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: satan@hell.home.com (Michael Lankton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Å`ī.ËË.īÂÅ`ī.ËË.īÂÅ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `ī.ËË.īÂÅ`ī.ËË.īÂÅ` MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <slrn7aq55g.17n.crc3419@ItMightBeAServer.net> Message-ID: <QEsr2.36$gI2.115@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:58:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:58:40 PDT Organization: @Home Network I can't believe what a clueless group of cross posters these mac advocates are. I wish they would stick to relevant groups and quit wasting so much of our bandwidth.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <78llfa$fqv$2@news.xmission.com> Message-ID: <xWsr2.42$jP6.402166@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:17:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:17:33 PDT In article <78llfa$fqv$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: >henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: >> ....how is GNUstep coming along? > >Pretty well, to be honest. > >I think we should all start paying it a lot more attention...which means we >should be supporting it in any way we can... > Is the 3D Kit still part of misckit?
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:32:29 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36AE5E9D.4189943D@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2501991336210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36ACCBD1.30D317CF@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2601991209150001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > Michael > This is where we differ. I do not think that the addition of specs makes > it all that specialized. Here goes the Car analogies.... I buy a car and > use it for 5-8 yearts then I buy a new one. I have certain specs for the > car I will purchase but I still consider the car to be a commodity becuase > it is not a specialized product(In my view). It may have been considered > specialized decades ago but not today. Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Unless there's some way different people can agree to the definitions of terms and agree to discuss them based on those definitions rather than on arbitrary "feelings" about them, discussion is pretty much pointless. If I could point to agreed-upon definitions and use logic to cause you to say "you're right, cars aren't commodities. I've always thought of them as commodities, but I really meant something else," and if you could do something similar with my thoughts and words, that would be a discussion. Unfortunately, here we are in USENET, and it appears we've reached one of those commonplace roadblocks in thinking. I guess it's back to "I'm right, you're wrong, let's agree to disagree". Business as usual. I mean no personal offense to you, Peter; I've seen very few exceptions in my years of posting to USENET. MJP
From: bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:36:56 -0500 Organization: New England Aquarium Message-ID: <bwyman-2601991936560001@bwyman.tiac.net> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> In article <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > Apples own Web Site is run from 5 Intel machines using > OPENSTEP/WebObjects......even they have no yet migrated over!!!!! Usign Netcraft's web sever query at <http://www.netcraft.com/cgi-bin/Survey/whats/>, we get: "www.apple.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.5.1C on Solaris. Netscape-Enterprise is also being used by BMW, Dilbert, Playboy, Sybase, Ferrari and The Vatican." ------------+---------------------------------------------- Bruce Wyman | bwyman@neaq.org <http://www.neaq.org/> bw@tiac.net | Webmaster, New England Aquarium ------------+---------------------------------------------+ "for whatever we lose (like a you or a me) | it's always ourselves we find in the sea" -e.e. cummings |
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:41:30 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36AE60BA.8D0D8ECA@ericsson.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> <01be497a$9edbdf40$6366ec84@bigred> <aYrr2.35$jP6.402166@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry wrote: [cut] > Somehow I knew Apple would screw up OPENSTEP when they bought NeXT....but I > wanted to "believe" Even most NeXT advocates claim that NeXT took over Apple, not the other way around. As long as you're pointing the finger at Apple for "screwing up", take careful note of whom, specifically, you're pointing at. MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:35:56 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36AE5F6C.2D81A6F3@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2501991336210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36ACCBD1.30D317CF@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2601991209150001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36ADFED0.B60@kan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steven Kan wrote: > > He said, she said: > > [lots of stuff about how computers are/aren't "commodities"] > > I think we're all getting hung up on semantics here. Whether or not we > agree that a computer is or is not "a commodity," why don't we discuss > how we do and don't make decisions buying the damn things? The word we > use is less important. As I just got finished telling Peter, words have definitions because words are supposed to mean things. If your words don't mean anything, discussion is pointless. I believe in the power of well-defined words, rather than "the politics of meaning". > Forget about the word. How do you (pl.) make your purchase decisions? > Are you different in this respect from those around you? How much of the > market do you and those like you represent? > > That would make for a more fruitful :) discussion. That would be anecdotal, and therefore a completely different level of conversation. The conversation we *were* having was with regard to the entire market, specifically "Are PCs commodities?" If you'd like to make a different assertion whose truth or untruth can be specifically argued, that's great. But I'm not really interested in a "this-is-how-I-buy-my-computer-and-I-think-it's-normative" discussion. No personal offense is intended, whatsoever. Regards, MJP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> <01be497a$9edbdf40$6366ec84@bigred> <aYrr2.35$jP6.402166@news.bctel.net> <36AE60BA.8D0D8ECA@ericsson.com> Message-ID: <m5ur2.50$jP6.470896@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:37:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:37:22 PDT In article <36AE60BA.8D0D8ECA@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >Henry wrote: > >[cut] > >> Somehow I knew Apple would screw up OPENSTEP when they bought NeXT....but I >> wanted to "believe" > >Even most NeXT advocates claim that NeXT took over Apple, not the other >way around. As long as you're pointing the finger at Apple for "screwing >up", take careful note of whom, specifically, you're pointing at. > >MJP True......I should have stated I wanted to believe Steve and Avi would remain focussed on what was great.....but they smelled the Mac money and are now perverted with greed rather than good code. hmmmmm..... Steve is doing now what he criticized Bill Gates for doing..... Is there anyone to pick up the OPENSTEP pieces?
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> Message-ID: <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:59:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:59:47 CDT On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:33:10 GMT, Henry <henryb@aol.com> wrote: >In article <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl>, "Abraham" <ab@twiguyt.twi.tudelft.nl> wrote: >This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide Developer >relations told us a Macworld ........ > >"YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" > >We were also told Objective-C will no longer be supported because Apple is >pushing Java.....needless to say we all know what Mac OS X is heavily >dependant upon. > >We all would have been beware off if NeXT had gone bankrupt and the OPENSTEP >source code pushed into the public domain...at least the OPENSTEP community >would have taken it in the direction it should have! Is it likely that OpenStep code would *actually* have gone PD? I rather think that someone would have paid something for it. And while the "Apple antics" may be pretty shocking, is it reasonable to assume that an "independent OpenStep" would have any reason to expect more favorable treatment from Adobe? If Apple, as a major customer, has been unable to convince Adobe to continue to support DPS, why would we expect a smaller purchaser with less leverage, or a public domain project with *no* money to do any better? >....how is GNUstep coming along? Apparently looking for some developers to take on an effort to "spruce up" Display Ghostscript so as to make it usable. Unfortunately, in the "gotta replicate things twice" story of the week, it appears that the XFree86 Project may have some people doing an independent effort to replicate DPS. (Note that DGS cannot be integrated into XFree86, due to incompatible licenses.) But aside from that, seemingly reasonably well. The libraries are at the point where it is reportedly a fruitful idea to start considering writing applications. Of course, it only goes as quickly as the contributions of time, effort, and other resources make it. Deploying more OpenStep expertise would no doubt speed the process. -- "I've discovered that P=NP, but the proof is too long to fit within the confines of this signature..." cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/xgnustep.html>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:49:50 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78lrbu$j4e$1@news.xmission.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <78llfa$fqv$2@news.xmission.com> <xWsr2.42$jP6.402166@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 01:49:50 GMT henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > In article <78llfa$fqv$2@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: > >henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > >> ....how is GNUstep coming along? > > > >Pretty well, to be honest. > > > >I think we should all start paying it a lot more attention...which > >means we should be supporting it in any way we can... > > > > Is the 3D Kit still part of misckit? It is a separate effort because I'm only allowed to release binaries, not the source...so it will always be released separately from the MiscKit itself. We have yet to produce any kind of binary based on the (incomplete) source that NeXT gave us. (Incomplete because they couldn't hand us any code under a third party license, like qrman.) I do still have the source, however. If you want to sign the requisite NDA to get your hands on it, just let me know... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> Message-ID: <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:28:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:28:25 PDT In article <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com>, cbbrowne@hex.net wrote: > >If Apple, as a major customer, has been unable to convince Adobe to >continue to support DPS, why would we expect a smaller purchaser with >less leverage, or a public domain project with *no* money to do any >better? I thought it was more the case of Apple not willing to pay the DPS licensing fees. > >Of course, it only goes as quickly as the contributions of time, effort, >and other resources make it. Deploying more OpenStep expertise would no >doubt speed the process. I know of several former OPENSTEP developers working with Linux now....maybe I can convince them to contribute to the DGS effort?
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 27 Jan 1999 03:02:59 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <78lvl3$e8$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@hex.net> wrote: : On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:33:10 GMT, Henry <henryb@aol.com> wrote: : >In article <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl>, "Abraham" [...] : >....how is GNUstep coming along? [...] : But aside from that, seemingly reasonably well. The libraries are at : the point where it is reportedly a fruitful idea to start considering : writing applications. Just curious ... has anyone here taken an Apple/NeXT *step application to GNUStep (or tried to)? I wonder what kinds of problems crop up and how far things go ... John
From: ziziz@worldnet.att.net (who is zizi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 27 Jan 1999 03:51:21 GMT Organization: moonlight web Message-ID: <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII In article <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com says... >NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a few because >of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have a clue >about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me they were >killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. .... if "Yellow Box was dead", how could Web-Objects servive ? actually, it seems to me that Web-Objects is the killer.app of YB. and i have heard that the job market for web-objects is booming.
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: The bright side... Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Message-ID: <36ae8da2.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 27 Jan 99 03:53:06 GMT For better or worse, it looks like the csna NeXT vs. Mac UI flame wars have ended.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:27:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:27:59 PDT In article <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, ziziz@worldnet.att.net (who is zizi) wrote: >In article <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com says... > >>NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a few >because >>of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have a clue >>about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me they were >>killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. .... > >if "Yellow Box was dead", how could Web-Objects servive ? > >actually, it seems to me that Web-Objects is the killer.app of YB. > >and i have heard that the job market for web-objects is booming. > This is what we were told from top Apple executives at Macworld.... They don't want to hear "Objective-C" ....only "Java" Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ As for Mac OS X they emphasized "Blue Box" and repeated "Yellow Box is dead" when we persisted in questioning. We were then told we (OPENSTEP) people had no business in being there (Macworld) in the first place and that Apple was concentrating on what is best for "Mac OS". I travelled all that way to hear this crap!!!! Do they even know how large the real Enterprise market is? These people are idiots! As for WebObjects who knows what strange form they will twist it in? It is quite clear Apple plans on using Mac OS X as a file server for Mac O S 8.5, and not for building high end applications on as was the case with OPENSTEP.
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:22:00 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric) writes: -> As for SMP - well, Linux's SMP support so far is less than impressive -> and no better than NT's (though I'm sure in time it will improve -> vastly). But quite besides that, just how relevant is SMP support -> anyway outside the enterprise server, at least, in the present? Dual -> (let alone more) CPU Intel boxes are for the present still very much a -> rarity, even amongst power users. This may well change in 6/12s, 1 yr, -> 2yrs' time or whenever, but until dual or more CPU systems become more -> widespread, SMP support is mostly of purely academic interest. SMP would be nice to have. But until the kernel is multithreaded, performance won't increase linearly with additional CPUs. All time spent in system will be multiplied by the number of CPUs. From what I hear, writing a multithreaded kernel is not easy. The 2.2 kernel distribution is now siting around 1.6 million lines of code. I've heard estimates for W2K ranging from 35 to 50 million lines of code. There is no way NT will ever scale up, unless it has a multithreaded kernel. It looks like it will be easier to add that to Linux. Whether that ever happens largely depends on what effort the kernel implimentors are willing to put in. As things currently stand, SMP support is largely irrelevant to me. With CPUs getting more powerful according to moore's law, I find single CPU boxes to be more economical. But that is me as an individual. I can see situations where space is a major consideration and multi-CPU machines are more economical. They won't be running Linux until it is multithreaded. -- David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail When will Altoids be available in 'extra strength'?
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:31:43 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m3ognodo4g.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) writes: -> On the other hand: they learn fast. Very fast and they run -> after every new standard and feature. This is very good, because -> it gives you the most out of it --- on the other hand, sometimes -> they forget quality over feature quantity. It's not called a bazzar for nothing! :-) As more Linux systems are put into production environments, those bugs will get shaken out. The same thing will happen with Microsoft's W2K. The difference is, Microsoft will have fewer people fixing a much larger system. -- David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail When will Altoids be available in 'extra strength'?
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 27 Jan 1999 05:32:43 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 05:32:43 GMT henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > I thought it was more the case of Apple not willing to pay the DPS > licensing fees. <rumor mode=on type=wild> No. I've heard that it is a case of Adobe telling Apple that there will be no more licenses, for any price, period. And that Apple couldn't buy the soon to be retired code base, either. As in, Adobe wants this product stone cold dead. (Of course, they can't stop the GNUSTEP people. Hah!) In that light, I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that Steve was able to weasel a few extra licenses out of Adobe so as to allow the release of WOF 4.0, MOSXS, and YB/NT at all...and apparently it took a _lot_ of cajoling and screaming. Literally. </rumor> Don't know if it is true, but it certainly explains some things if it is. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Message-ID: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:42:46 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:38:56 CDT Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html Big Brother Inside.
Message-ID: <36AEA75A.2B513CD3@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The bright side... References: <36ae8da2.0@news.depaul.edu> <78m8df$j4e$2@news.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:52:12 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:48:21 CDT Don Yacktman wrote: > But thank heavens we still have Lawson ranting about how f***ing wonderful > Quickdraw GX is. It would sure get stuffy around here without that baloney, > wouldn't it? <snip> Laugh Out Loud!!! ;-) Lawson doesn't seem to know how to let something go...
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 27 Jan 1999 04:12:14 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <917410334.8078@watserv5.uwaterloo.ca> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <78lvl3$e8$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Cache-Post-Path: watserv5.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <78lvl3$e8$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: > >Just curious ... has anyone here taken an Apple/NeXT *step application to >GNUStep (or tried to)? > IIRC one of the "big boys" (Omni? Stone? don't remember) did a trial with one of their apps. I think it was likely Stone--after all, Andy was the only one crazy enough to port to OPENSTEP/Solaris! Anyway, if I'm remembering rightly it worked but was painful and buggy. This was quite a while ago, however. -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> In-Reply-To: <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) Date: 27 Jan 1999 05:55:41 GMT Message-ID: <36aeaa5d$0$16685@nntp1.ba.best.com> On 01/26/99, "Lawson English" wrote: >Matt Kennel <SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com> said: > >>"An Object-based API usable in C" is exactly what's infested most of >>the Xt toolkit, which has in turn infested way too many X APIs. >> >>Fake objects suck. >> > >And how do you call "real" objects from a non-OOP language? By using the runtime library that actually does all the work of invoking methods. It's not rocket science. The same runtime is what lets you interface other OO and non-OO languages to the OO objects. -Ken -- Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kcd@3dfx.com (work) Sr. Software Engineer, Cross Platform Development, 3Dfx Interactive C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The bright side... Date: 27 Jan 1999 05:32:31 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78m8df$j4e$2@news.xmission.com> References: <36ae8da2.0@news.depaul.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 05:32:31 GMT Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote: > For better or worse, it looks like the csna NeXT vs. Mac UI flame > wars have ended. But thank heavens we still have Lawson ranting about how f***ing wonderful Quickdraw GX is. It would sure get stuffy around here without that baloney, wouldn't it? It's a floor wax... No, it's a graphics model... It's a dessert topping... No, it's all those things in one and more! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
Message-ID: <36AEB304.201955C2@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why MacOS X is so late? References: <joe.ragosta-2001990817310001@wil124.dol.net> <19990121001504.10874.00000350@ng127.aol.com> <36a7947b.0@nntp.mediasoft.net> <78a2pb$s2l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36AD07A6.8ACBC3DE@mediaone.net> <78ki7j$p3u$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:42:03 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:38:08 CDT spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > > No, I don't think Carbon will be in OX X Server 2.x since their goal > > w/Server is to introduce *yellow box solutions*. > > Where did you get that idea? If Apple really wanted to encourage yellow-box > solutions, they'd be selling OS X Server at a reasonable price; people who > spend $1000 to buy it for server use aren't likely to be running lots of YB > apps. You're unlikely to encourage yellow-box solutions, I would submit, by > crippling the market for OSX Server. Yeah, but there is NO CARBON <good>, so what other form of solutions can be developed? I don't know that Java is ready for MOSXS -- is it? -Eric an Interview with Ken Bereskin in a MacWorld magazine ( a foreign issue, not the US one)... -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> Message-ID: <8uzr2.162$jP6.631571@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:45:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:45:08 PDT In article <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: >henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: >> I thought it was more the case of Apple not willing to pay the DPS >> licensing fees. > ><rumor mode=on type=wild> > >No. I've heard that it is a case of Adobe telling Apple that there will be >no more licenses, for any price, period. And that Apple couldn't buy the >soon to be retired code base, either. As in, Adobe wants this product stone >cold dead. (Of course, they can't stop the GNUSTEP people. Hah!) > >In that light, I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that Steve was able >to weasel a few extra licenses out of Adobe so as to allow the release of WOF >4.0, MOSXS, and YB/NT at all...and apparently it took a _lot_ of cajoling and >screaming. Literally. > ></rumor> > >Don't know if it is true, but it certainly explains some things if it is. > Its time to support DGS.....I know of one programmer with the capability to handle this task.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> Message-ID: <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:04:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:04:22 PDT In article <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: >On 01/26/99, Henry wrote: >>In article <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, >ziziz@worldnet.att.net (who is zizi) wrote: >>>In article <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com >says... >>> >>>>NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a >few >>>because >>>>of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have >a clue >>>>about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me >they were >>>>killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. .... >>> >>>if "Yellow Box was dead", how could Web-Objects servive ? >>> >>>actually, it seems to me that Web-Objects is the killer.app of YB. >>> >>>and i have heard that the job market for web-objects is booming. >>> >> >>This is what we were told from top Apple executives at Macworld.... >> > > Name them. And where this 'fictional' talk took place. > > And at the same time, you'd better step out of the shadows >yourself. > > I'm smelling a load here, since this is not what we were told >at the BOF, nor was it what was said in an Interview with Ken Bereskin >in a MacWorld magazine ( a foreign issue, not the US one)... "At WWDC, Apple promised at least a single release of Mac OS X Server on Intel hardware. While it may be premature to panic, Apple should be reminded of this promise, since it appears that it is on the back burner.." Apple's promise clearly has been broken. "They must regain the trust of Mac developers and retain the trust of Yellow Box developers." Apple clearly is treating the later as expendable. As for the meeting, there were several witnesses with me .....it was at the developer lunch on Wed. at Macworld. ...I don't want to start slinging names around. But I can say how sick I felt hearing this.....I was very disappointed. Some Mac OS X programmers were surprised to hear this as well when I told them what was said. I get the feeling there is an internal fight going on at Apple between their marketing people and the Mac OS X team. A lot of negativity was in the air. I wish the company would just stay focussed ....at least the part of the company that is supposed to be "Enterprise". GNUstep is looking better all the time.....maybe I will organize some corporate funding (sponsorship) to speed things up. A lot of money is being made in Silicon Valley lately, and there is growing support for free open standards. Linux and FreeBSD lack a good development environment....hopefully GNUstep will provide that.....in the end.
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:07:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:07:39 PDT Organization: @Home Network Well I know what they had and it was 1.4 BILLION in the bank, right now they ahve 2.6 BILLION in the bank anbd short term investments! Bite me! BG saved Apple LOL! BG has been trying to kill Apple for years! In article <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote: >On 26 Jan 1999 17:22:24 GMT, clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C >Lund) chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom: > >>In article <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> yes he did >>> to all accounts >> >>To reiterate what somebody else posted in response to your stupid comment >>(billy G saving apple)... >> >>BG bought 150 mill worth of Apple stock. At that time, Apple had over 1 >>*billion* $US. The 150 mill from BG was hardly a plink in the bucket. >> >>Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to >>understand that billion >> million. > >I'm afraid its a bit more complicated than that. That 1 billion (It >was 800 million the first time I saw this argument. I predict that the >amount of money Apple had, according to the Maccies, will follow the >same curve as R E Ballard's number of Linux users and soon Apple will >have had more cash than there was in the world. :)) was a cash reseve. >They desparately needed operating funds. If they had dug that heavily >into their reserves it would have caused a huge loss of confidence in >the company's future. This would have led to a sell off of their stock >fueling the already widespread belief that the company was doomed. >If Jobs hadn't gone, hat in hand, to Microsoft they may very well have >gone under. >Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to >understand that sometimes things are more complicated than a cursory >glance takes in. > > >"That is not dead which can eternal lie, > And with strange aeons even death may die." >- Abdul Alhazred, Necronomicon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Message-ID: <adtF67MMo.EB9@netcom.com> Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Organization: ICGNetcom References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:37:36 GMT Sender: adt@netcom19.netcom.com Eric A. Dubiel (liberty4all@mediaone.net) wrote: : Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... : : Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging : privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." : : http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html : : Big Brother Inside. Every PowerMac has a unique ID number burned into the hardware as well, every ethernet capable system does. If software wants to ID you it can do so, Pentium-III not required. Related trivia: Apple used to uniquely serialize the Lisa systems. Tony -- ------------------ Tony Tribelli adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> <bwyman-2601991936560001@bwyman.tiac.net> Message-ID: <3Eur2.56$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:14:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:14:23 PDT In article <bwyman-2601991936560001@bwyman.tiac.net>, bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman) wrote: >In article <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > >> Apples own Web Site is run from 5 Intel machines using >> OPENSTEP/WebObjects......even they have no yet migrated over!!!!! > >Usign Netcraft's web sever query at ><http://www.netcraft.com/cgi-bin/Survey/whats/>, we get: > >"www.apple.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.5.1C on Solaris. > To bring your up to speed Netcraft's web sever query does not properly identify OPENSTEP and defaults to Solaris. This happens on our own servers running OPENSTEP as well. Apple's On-Line store is run on four computers: store.apple.com store1.apple.com store2.apple.com store3.apple.cmo store4.apple.com ....and uses WebObjects as can be seen from the following: http://store2.apple.com/1-800-795-1000/WebObjects/AppleStore. woa/13007633610078430040772077966014641/AppleStore. wo/051385258004641/0/1/order1.apple.com
From: "William V. Campbell Jr." <wcampbe1@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Making the Apple kissups cry! References: <macghod-1101990028520001@sdn-ar-002casbarp230.dialsprint.net> <4cum2.8097$XY6.169010@news.san.rr.com> <2lum2.3758$xq4.972@news.rdc1.ne.home.com> <P5vm2.8126$XY6.169552@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-1801990154460001@sdn-ar-001casbarp151.dialsprint.net> <o3Dp2.10117$XY6.261472@news.san.rr.com> <macghod-2101991250260001@sdn-ar-001casbarp257.dialsprint.net> <fTQp2.10167$XY6.266639@news.san.rr.com> <1dm4cwm.fhsxgzmobhjtN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <c2Cr2.11655$XY6.297532@news.san.rr.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:40:08 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:40:08 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA In article <1dm4cwm.fhsxgzmobhjtN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> , edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > > Let's not forget what a liar Steve is. Before he began posting under > his own name he was Macghod. Then he was NeXT Newbie. That's three > different posting names. > > Steve is here to advocate cheap PCs, bash Apple and anything associated > with it, and to attack Mac advocates whenever he can. > > As NeXT Newbie he flooded this news group with posts urging Mac users to > switch to PCs running NeXT. Later he denied ever using a PC. > > Watch out for this guy William, he's really snakey. > Thanks for refreshing my memory Edwin. I thought that I was correct the first time about Steve posting under different names. I was sure that I recalled the thread in which he was exposed. He disappeared for awhile, only to reappear to champion John Carmack's article on programming games on a Mac vs. a PC. [ something I still consider a low blow, especially after his appearance at MW] Steve Sullivan might have snake like qualities, but snakes can be skinned and used for many things. ( a new iMac flavor maybe? ) We sent each other a couple of private emails continuing this discussion and he was just as offensive. I know it is not appropriate to post private messages, but since he lied about posting under several names I feel that all bets are off. -- "Whatever you want-Wants you" soup *Here is our last exchange, hopefully this will keep him off this newsgroup for awhile or at least until he can come up with a different name.* Steve said; > So basically you are a big huge nothing. You have no facts to offer, you > just call people names as you fantasize about sucking stevey J off. > William said; No, basically I expose huge big nothings like you. Now I might be wrong about you using different names (got you confused with another notorious troller; sorry about that), but every other word I have written about you is true. The facts that I offer are that you are a vulgar, immature little man, who can't handle a taste of his own medicine. And who are you sucking off? John Carmack maybe!? FYI, I don't think SJ is God. I don't think Bill Gates is evil. I do think that I am God and that you are evil. That's it, I'm now claiming myself to be MACGHOD. You are henceforth forbidden to use this name ever again. I am MACGHOD. Yeah! I kinda like the sound of that. Thank you! Thank you Steve for opening my eyes to my true purpose in life. I hope you don't mind me taking the name MACGHOD. It fits the task at hand perfectly. I'm sure that you can find another name soon. OK then so it's settled, I am MACGHOD and you are nothing until you find can another name. To trollers everywhere; beware, MACGHOD is out to protect Truth, Justice, Ice Cream, MacOS and the American Way of Life. Let me say it again because it sounds sooooo good-----I AM MACGHOD!! Now BEGONE little man for I have GHODLY work to do. I MACGHOD have found my true calling; ridding the world of trollers of all stripes and persuasion. -- Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God. [Macghod that is!] Wm. (Soup) Jr.
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:56:54 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78mrdj$m27$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> In article <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide > Developer relations told us a Macworld ........ > > "YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" > Who said that when? It sounds like you completely misrepresented what either Ernie or Jordan said at the BoF: what they did *not* say was that that YB is dead, what was said was that the YB *marketing strategy* is no longer appropriate. YB itself will certainly survive and will continue to receive investment... > We were also told Objective-C will no longer be supported > No, we were not. We were told that the centre of gravity of language support will shift from Obj-C to Java over the next 18-36 months. > because Apple is pushing Java.....needless to say we all know what Mac > OS X is heavily dependant upon. > OK, maybe you could explain to us what we all know? Insofar as anyone *knows* anything about MacOS X, I "know" it will be MacOS X Server with the addition of Carbon, and with DPS replaced by a new lightweitght window server. YB is still very much in there. > We all would have been beware off if NeXT had gone bankrupt and the > OPENSTEP source code pushed into the public domain...at least the > OPENSTEP community would have taken it in the direction it should > have! > Utter tosh. If you can't see the opportunities before you that's your problem. And if you want to distort reports out of all recognition and then believe them, that's your problem too. I'm not going to pretend that the picture is as rosy as it might be in an ideal-for-longterm-NeXT-developers world, but certainly it could be a lot worse, and it would be if NeXT had just gone out of business. mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The high cost of Mac OS X Server References: <7765kh$2a8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2BBFFFB-221D2@206.165.43.10> <77c1je$pqt$1@news.digifix.com> <joe.ragosta-1101990628070001@elk89.dol.net> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <369ae20e.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:24:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:24:13 JST Organization: Global Online Japan joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >This is something that amazed me. Everything I've seen about Yellow Box >says that it was/is amazing technology. Yet the developers almost >universally ignored it. Well, if the owner of the technology won't sell it to anyone there's not much point developing for it is there? Unfortunately, there has never really been anything Apple could do to persuade people they were really going to sell and support YB.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:30:11 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2701990830120001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2501991336210001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36ACCBD1.30D317CF@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-2601991209150001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36AE5E9D.4189943D@ericsson.com> Let us pretend that we are lawyers and argue about what " is is" :-) Peter In article <36AE5E9D.4189943D@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Peter wrote: > > > Michael > > This is where we differ. I do not think that the addition of specs makes > > it all that specialized. Here goes the Car analogies.... I buy a car and > > use it for 5-8 yearts then I buy a new one. I have certain specs for the > > car I will purchase but I still consider the car to be a commodity becuase > > it is not a specialized product(In my view). It may have been considered > > specialized decades ago but not today. > > Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Unless there's some way different > people can agree to the definitions of terms and agree to discuss them > based on those definitions rather than on arbitrary "feelings" about > them, discussion is pretty much pointless. > > If I could point to agreed-upon definitions and use logic to cause you > to say "you're right, cars aren't commodities. I've always thought of > them as commodities, but I really meant something else," and if you > could do something similar with my thoughts and words, that would be a > discussion. > > Unfortunately, here we are in USENET, and it appears we've reached one > of those commonplace roadblocks in thinking. I guess it's back to "I'm > right, you're wrong, let's agree to disagree". Business as usual. I mean > no personal offense to you, Peter; I've seen very few exceptions in my > years of posting to USENET. > > MJP -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:47:43 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2701990847430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> In article <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > "At WWDC, Apple promised at least a single release of Mac OS X Server on Intel > hardware. While it may be premature to panic, Apple should be reminded of this > promise, since it appears that it is on the back burner.." YB does not have to come to Intel hardware by releasing a complete OS. Just the YB APIs need to be ported and they need to be able to function on top of the NT kernal. With this said, WHY ARE YOU REPEATING THE MANTRA YB is dead? Like I said earlier, YB APIs are going to be released that runs on the NT kernal. This is a statement of Fact. What is not known is how the APIs will be distributed and how much the will cost. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Message-ID: <5tFr2.24$fx3.275@news6.ispnews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:33:37 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:33:49 -0500 Eric A. Dubiel wrote in message <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net>... >Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... > >Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging >privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html > >Big Brother Inside. .. Oh.... and where were you when they slipped the V-Chip in your TV? .. ..
From: ev515o@hotmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Organization: City Of R'lyeh Message-ID: <36b0229c.222545022@news.netdirect.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:34:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:43 EDT On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:07:39 GMT, cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom: >Well I know what they had and it was 1.4 BILLION in the bank, right now >they ahve 2.6 BILLION in the bank anbd short term investments! My prediction seems to be coming true! >Bite me! That's going to have to remain just your fantasy for the forseeable future. > BG >saved Apple LOL! BG has been trying to kill Apple for years! He needed Apple around to have someone tp point to and say 'Look at that. I do have competition.' Whatever measures BG has taken to defeat Apple haven't been nearly as fatal as the gross incompetence its management has demonstrated over the years. > > > > > > >In article <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotmail.com >(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote: > >>On 26 Jan 1999 17:22:24 GMT, clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C >>Lund) chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom: >> >>>In article <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> yes he did >>>> to all accounts >>> >>>To reiterate what somebody else posted in response to your stupid comment >>>(billy G saving apple)... >>> >>>BG bought 150 mill worth of Apple stock. At that time, Apple had over 1 >>>*billion* $US. The 150 mill from BG was hardly a plink in the bucket. >>> >>>Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to >>>understand that billion >> million. >> >>I'm afraid its a bit more complicated than that. That 1 billion (It >>was 800 million the first time I saw this argument. I predict that the >>amount of money Apple had, according to the Maccies, will follow the >>same curve as R E Ballard's number of Linux users and soon Apple will >>have had more cash than there was in the world. :)) was a cash reseve. >>They desparately needed operating funds. If they had dug that heavily >>into their reserves it would have caused a huge loss of confidence in >>the company's future. This would have led to a sell off of their stock >>fueling the already widespread belief that the company was doomed. >>If Jobs hadn't gone, hat in hand, to Microsoft they may very well have >>gone under. >>Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to >>understand that sometimes things are more complicated than a cursory >>glance takes in. >> >> >>"That is not dead which can eternal lie, >> And with strange aeons even death may die." >>- Abdul Alhazred, Necronomicon "That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die." - Abdul Alhazred, Necronomicon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Message-ID: <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:41:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:41:42 PDT In article <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > >> Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ > >I never heard this. At MW SF they repeatidly said that YB for NT is on track > >Peter > I am just repeating what we were told.....time will tell.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: 27 Jan 1999 15:07:52 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> "Two major computer makers, Hewlett-Packard and Silicon Graphics, are to support the free software product Linux operating system got a boost from, according to reports. [...] In addition, HP and SGI said they will make Linux one of their core operating system offerings" http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,31511,00.html ---- Such stuff does make Apple's focus on the consumer-computer space seem like the safe choice. The *step technology does have what it takes for the enterprise space, but the window of market opportunity is probably gone. IMHO, 1997 was the year for Apple to make it happen. For a variety of licensing, marketing and cultural reasons they have delayed too long. John
From: sejones@columbus.rr.com (Steve Jones) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Message-ID: <sejones-2701991021440001@grv221105.columbus.rr.com> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <adtF67MMo.EB9@netcom.com> Organization: Ohio State University Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:44 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:25:46 EDT In article <adtF67MMo.EB9@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote: > Related trivia: Apple used to uniquely serialize the Lisa systems. > > Tony And we all know what a big hit those were ;) Steve
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:29:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78nbbp$2un$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <78mrdj$m27$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > If you can't see the opportunities before you that's your problem. Actually, it seems to me that's Apple's problem. If it doesn't fit their current, short-term vision of what their focus is, not only do they not see it as an opportunity, they seem to go out of their way to attack it. Bleah. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, apparently condemned to remain a reluctant Windows NT user by Apple Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F686BL.EBs@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: cbbrowne@news.hex.net Organization: needs one References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:42:56 GMT In <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> Christopher Browne wrote: > Is it likely that OpenStep code would *actually* have gone PD? No. > I rather think that someone would have paid something for it. Indeed, and at the time no one seemed terribly interested that I saw (being an "outsider). > And while the "Apple antics" may be pretty shocking, is it reasonable to > assume that an "independent OpenStep" would have any reason to expect > more favorable treatment from Adobe? Almost certainly less. If SJ has a hard time "selling" it, what chance has any other company? Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6863q.E7o@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: trashcan@david-steuber.com Organization: needs one References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:12 GMT In <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> David Steuber wrote: > SMP would be nice to have. But until the kernel is multithreaded, > performance won't increase linearly with additional CPUs. Which is unlikely to occur even in that case. > spent in system will be multiplied by the number of CPUs. From what I > hear, writing a multithreaded kernel is not easy. Well writing a _good_ one isn't easy because of the various tradeoffs. Mach is pretty fine-grained in terms of locking though, it should scale _much_ better than mono-kernels. If the OSF/1 -> DECUnix conversion is typical in any way it shows that the Mach kernels seem to run to multi-CPU's better than most. > The 2.2 kernel distribution is now siting around 1.6 million lines of > code. I've heard estimates for W2K ranging from 35 to 50 million > lines of code. There is no way NT will ever scale up, unless it has a > multithreaded kernel. It looks like it will be easier to add that to > Linux. Whether that ever happens largely depends on what effort the > kernel implimentors are willing to put in. Exactly. However ever extra lock they add is going to kill performance in the non-multi case, and since one of the primary goals of the Linux system is to make it the fastest OS on the "low end" (consumer) machines then it seems unlikely to change. What I don't understand is why no one has attempted a project that ends up with *two* kernels, one with lots of locks for fine grainularity, and another with all of these removed (barring the "threaded" code like the file system of course). I'm sure some will be shocked at the idea because it seems to multiple the difficulty of shipping, but frankly I don't think that's so. The problem is basically one of development processes, and this seems like the perfect experiment for the Linux community. > As things currently stand, SMP support is largely irrelevant to me. > With CPUs getting more powerful according to moore's law But they aren't going to for long. Fab prices are simply too expensive to continue the curve out past another couple of years. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F686Dw.EDz@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: henryb@aol.com Organization: needs one References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:44:19 GMT In <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> Henry wrote: > I thought it was more the case of Apple not willing to pay the DPS > licensing fees. It seems to be a little of both. Adobe wants control again, and their solution to the problem is PDF (odd as that may sound). Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F686pt.Er1@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: english@primenet.com Organization: needs one References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:51:28 GMT In <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> "Lawson English" wrote: > Really? That flies in the face of Apple's official statements about why > they dumped DPS... But for the "reality" of this, read Don's comments. >Why didn't they use their own GhostScript instead? Because it's harder. eQD is an imaging engine, DPS is more. However since DPS is going away that "more" is not terribly useful. Maury
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <cclark1-2701991005350001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36b0229c.222545022@news.netdirect.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:02:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:02:55 PDT Organization: @Home Network In article <36b0229c.222545022@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotmail.com (Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote: >On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:07:39 GMT, cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) >chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom: > >>Well I know what they had and it was 1.4 BILLION in the bank, right now >>they ahve 2.6 BILLION in the bank anbd short term investments! > >My prediction seems to be coming true! > >>Bite me! > >That's going to have to remain just your fantasy for the forseeable >future. > >> BG >>saved Apple LOL! BG has been trying to kill Apple for years! > >He needed Apple around to have someone tp point to and say 'Look at >that. I do have competition.' Whatever measures BG has taken to defeat >Apple haven't been nearly as fatal as the gross incompetence its >management has demonstrated over the years. I would be the first one to say Apple managemnt has sucked in the past. However BG has actively tried to do Apple in, he makes sure Wintel SW is on shelves, squezing Mac SW out and giving the preception there is no SW for the Mac. The rumors have been floating for years that Apple was on the brink which was overstated many times, what to you think that has done to Apple's business, helped? No, it very nearly became a self fulfilling prophecy. > >>In article <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net>, ev515o@hotmail.com >>(Mayor Of R'lyeh) wrote: >> >>>On 26 Jan 1999 17:22:24 GMT, clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C >>>Lund) chose to bless us all with this bit of wisdom: >>> >>>>In article <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63>, "havoc" <macncrap@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> yes he did >>>>> to all accounts >>>> >>>>To reiterate what somebody else posted in response to your stupid comment >>>>(billy G saving apple)... >>>> >>>>BG bought 150 mill worth of Apple stock. At that time, Apple had over 1 >>>>*billion* $US. The 150 mill from BG was hardly a plink in the bucket. >>>> >>>>Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to >>>>understand that billion >> million. >>> >>>I'm afraid its a bit more complicated than that. That 1 billion (It >>>was 800 million the first time I saw this argument. I predict that the >>>amount of money Apple had, according to the Maccies, will follow the >>>same curve as R E Ballard's number of Linux users and soon Apple will >>>have had more cash than there was in the world. :)) was a cash reseve. >>>They desparately needed operating funds. If they had dug that heavily >>>into their reserves it would have caused a huge loss of confidence in >>>the company's future. This would have led to a sell off of their stock >>>fueling the already widespread belief that the company was doomed. >>>If Jobs hadn't gone, hat in hand, to Microsoft they may very well have >>>gone under. >>>Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to >>>understand that sometimes things are more complicated than a cursory >>>glance takes in. >>> >>> >>>"That is not dead which can eternal lie, >>> And with strange aeons even death may die." >>>- Abdul Alhazred, Necronomicon > >"That is not dead which can eternal lie, > And with strange aeons even death may die." >- Abdul Alhazred, Necronomicon
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:32:30 GMT Organization: ICX Online, Inc. Message-ID: <36af3ac1.8628661@news.icx.net> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 16:34:42 GMT cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote: >On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:33:10 GMT, Henry <henryb@aol.com> wrote: > >>....how is GNUstep coming along? > >Apparently looking for some developers to take on an effort to "spruce >up" Display Ghostscript so as to make it usable. Perhaps some informed person can summarize why Display Ghostscript is so necessary. The only obvious benefit to me is unified imaging and printing model. Although, Type 1 font support also comes to mind. Are those the main benefits? If Type 1 font support can be or has been integrated into current X graphics API's, I'd be for just mapping the Openstep graphics API to the X API and getting on with other things. The whole GNUstep project has seemed stalled for a while now -- is the DPS issue a big reason why? Not using a Postscript engine for graphics would also rid GNUstep of the disadvantage of a slower graphics model. There were projects I developed using NeXTSTEP that suffered from the slower graphics performance relative to other APIs that essentially made NeXTSTEP unsuitable for those applications. As for the double-buffering (less visible redraws) visual advantages of NeXTSTEP/DPS, can't that also be added to X? I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I'd like to understand why DPS emulation is such a high priority. Windows seems to do a reasonable job printing nowdays and I don't have to screw around directly with Postscript, since the printer drivers in the OS do an acceptable job. Plus, the majority of printers on the market (especially consumer models) don't even use Postscript. Michael McCulloch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> Message-ID: <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:14:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:14:38 PDT In article <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com>, "Kristopher Magnusson" <kmagnusson@novell.com> wrote: > >Bernhard Scholz wrote in message <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de>... >>Nobody currently can convince me that there is any better Unix shell >>than MacOX-X Server on the market and that NEXTSTEP/OpenStep was the >>best predecessor. If MacOS-X will profit from the Unix benefits and still >>look like a traditional home-OS, this will be the future and all the Linux >>X11 stuff and hundreds of add-on tool-box libraries might finally become >>obsolete because you get well designed replacement. > > >There probably isn't any better Unix environment on the market than MacOS X >Server. But there isn't any less free Unix environment on the market, >either. > >I think it's about time someone put some work into bringing the quality of >the NeXT and MacOS experience to a free operating system. > >............ kris > Exactly my point.....with Apple's non interest in Yellow Box Mac OS X is nothing more than FreeBSD with a Mac UI. From what I can see Mac OS X resembles FreeBSD more than OPENSTEP did. It will be very interesting for GNUstep or an "AfterSTEP" port to FreeBSD. Also I spoke to the people who write Code Warrior and they said they have received many requests for a FreeBSD port. Since Yahoo runs on FreeBSD it proves the scalability of this OS. Since Apple has no clue how to market to the real Enterprise market they are missing out big time on this huge market place..... At least there are alternatives for us folks in the Enterprise market.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 27 Jan 1999 17:18:14 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <78nhom$red$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <F6863q.E7o@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: : Exactly. However ever extra lock they add is going to kill performance : in the non-multi case, and since one of the primary goals of the Linux : system is to make it the fastest OS on the "low end" (consumer) machines : then it seems unlikely to change. : What I don't understand is why no one has attempted a project that ends : up with *two* kernels, one with lots of locks for fine grainularity, and : another with all of these removed (barring the "threaded" code like the : file system of course). I'm sure some will be shocked at the idea because : it seems to multiple the difficulty of shipping, but frankly I don't think : that's so. The problem is basically one of development processes, and this : seems like the perfect experiment for the Linux community. I'd think this could be #ifdef'd out, or the locks could be done with disappearing macros (perhaps this is already done), to allow single vs. multiple CPU selection at compile time. John
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:27:41 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <78nipb$o3d$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 17:35:39 GMT David Steuber wrote in message ... >With CPUs getting more powerful according to moore's law, I find >single CPU boxes to be more economical. What do you mean by economical? You get better price/performance out of a dual-proc box, unless you stick with low-end CPUs.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Message-ID: <tbrown-2701991234520001@da118.ecr.net> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:34:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:35:30 CDT In article <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: ><rumor mode=on type=wild> > >No. I've heard that it is a case of Adobe telling Apple that there will be >no more licenses, for any price, period. And that Apple couldn't buy the >soon to be retired code base, either. As in, Adobe wants this product stone >cold dead. (Of course, they can't stop the GNUSTEP people. Hah!) > >In that light, I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that Steve was able >to weasel a few extra licenses out of Adobe so as to allow the release of WOF >4.0, MOSXS, and YB/NT at all...and apparently it took a _lot_ of cajoling and >screaming. Literally. > ></rumor> Does that mean that Apple could release OSXS Intel as a product _only_ to those who have current copies of OpenStep Intel, as they already have a DPS liscence? There would be a bit of screaming for those who want to be able to buy OSXS Intel but never bought OS Intel, but at least Apple wouldn't be screwing existing customers. Those customers could evaluate OSXS and make a decision if Apple hw and OS X was a good investment, and do so now. At the moment, they have to buy some new hw and buy an expensive OS to test the waters, where they won't even be able to deploy until OS X ships. A nice upgrade (coupled with some real information on YB NT) might be enough to keep them around until OS X ships.... -- tbrown@netset.com
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:32:25 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78nm3p$d08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> In article <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > "At WWDC, Apple promised at least a single release of Mac OS X Server > on Intel hardware. While it may be premature to panic, Apple should > be reminded of this promise, since it appears that it is on the back > burner.." > > Apple's promise clearly has been broken. > I won't disagree with that, although it's mildly interesting to note that others will, however this is not relevant to the immediate issue... > "They must regain the trust of Mac developers and retain the trust of > Yellow Box developers." > > Apple clearly is treating the later as expendable. > Yes, and although I don't like it, I can see why. Would you do any different in their position? It's up to *us* either to "hang" in there (it's not as if there aren't plenty of opportunities for leveraging YB skills and making money) or, as the adage went a couple of years ago, take up pig farming. Whatever, do something *constructive*. > As for the meeting, there were several witnesses with me .....it was at > the developer lunch on Wed. at Macworld. ...I don't want to start slinging > names around. > Tough, it's time to do so. I'll name one name who addressed a meeting ("The BoF") on Wednesday evening: Ernest Prabhakar, "Rhapsody" Product Marketing Manager, who made it very clear that YB is *not* dead. True, it will not receive the marketing dollars we'd like, but that's a different issue again. mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:42:38 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ I never heard this. At MW SF they repeatidly said that YB for NT is on track Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 27 Jan 1999 19:33:52 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78npn0$5p4$1@news.xmission.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <78nm3p$d08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36AF644D.F92AE7DA@tone.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 19:33:52 GMT Michael <michael@tone.ca> wrote: > malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > > It's up to *us* either to "hang" in there (it's not as if there > > aren't plenty of opportunities for leveraging YB skills and making > > money) or, as the adage went a couple of years ago, take up pig > > farming. > > Bad choice, actually. The hog market has tanked in North America. I think the original suggestion years ago was to raise dental floss in Montana, as per the Zappa song... ---- "Hey Doc! Nice pig you got there!" -- from the movie "Doc Hollywood" -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:09:04 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial03p01.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36AF644D.F92AE7DA@tone.ca> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <78nm3p$d08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 1999 19:07:54 GMT malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > It's up to *us* either to "hang" in there (it's not as if there aren't plenty > of opportunities for leveraging YB skills and making money) or, as the adage > went a couple of years ago, take up pig farming. Bad choice, actually. The hog market has tanked in North America. > Whatever, do something > *constructive*. >
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F68IAJ.L8o@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: kmagnusson@novell.com Organization: needs one References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:01:31 GMT In <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> "Kristopher Magnusson" wrote: > There probably isn't any better Unix environment on the market than MacOS > X > Server. But there isn't any less free Unix environment on the market, > either. There are, however, a number of "similarily non-free" Unixen of course. > I think it's about time someone put some work into bringing the quality of > the NeXT and MacOS experience to a free operating system. Is it possible? In my experience writing and debugging the GUI is about 10 times as hard as the rest of the system. Maury
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:25:27 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> In article <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: > Really? That flies in the face of Apple's official statements about why > they dumped DPS... Why didn't they use their own GhostScript instead? > Where on earth did this "their own GhostScript" come from?! Do you wantonly make this stuff up? > Surely Apple could have used their own internal code with a new name. > No, it's called a "license" for a reason, and there are other factors involved too... ... e.g. Henry McG. explained months ago why GhostScript is unlikely to be able to replicate all of DPS (patents on shading algorithms etc.) mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:45:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:45:27 PDT John Jensen wrote: > "Two major computer makers, Hewlett-Packard and Silicon Graphics, are to > support the free software product Linux operating system got a boost from, > according to reports. > > [...] > > In addition, HP and SGI said they will make Linux one of their core > operating system offerings" > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,31511,00.html > > ---- > > Such stuff does make Apple's focus on the consumer-computer space seem > like the safe choice. > > The *step technology does have what it takes for the enterprise space, but > the window of market opportunity is probably gone. IMHO, 1997 was the > year for Apple to make it happen. For a variety of licensing, marketing > and cultural reasons they have delayed too long. > > John It's a cultural thing... HP, SGI .et .al are in the business of mfg machines people want. Apple is in the business of mfg desires for machines that people don't know they want. Linux steals Apple's core competency "desire". -r
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:46:25 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-2701991446280001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <78nm3p$d08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36AF644D.F92AE7DA@tone.ca> <78npn0$5p4$1@news.xmission.com> In article <78npn0$5p4$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: > I think the original suggestion years ago was to raise dental floss in > Montana, as per the Zappa song... WOW You are right.....and a good song it was. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 14:01:50 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D4CCD0-37351@206.165.43.79> References: <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy malcolm@plsys.co.uk said: >In article <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151>, > "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: >> Really? That flies in the face of Apple's official statements about why >> they dumped DPS... Why didn't they use their own GhostScript instead? >> >Where on earth did this "their own GhostScript" come from?! >Do you wantonly make this stuff up? Apple has their own routines to draw onscreen. Why not use [or create] their own [equivalent of] GhostScript? Do you have a problem with the question beyond the need to nitpick my terminology? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 14:04:04 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D4CD58-3931D@206.165.43.79> References: <F686pt.Er1@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said: > >>Why didn't they use their own GhostScript instead? > > Because it's harder. eQD is an imaging engine, DPS is more. However >since DPS is going away that "more" is not terribly useful. So, you're saying that the "more" that everyone touted as being so useful for so many reasons wasn't really "more?" You've already suggested that GX's enhanced transfer modes are not really worth doing for vectors and text, but only for bitmaps, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:50:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78o56u$r3r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <78nm3p$d08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > I'll name one name who addressed a meeting ("The BoF") on Wednesday evening: > Ernest Prabhakar, "Rhapsody" Product Marketing Manager, who made it very > clear that YB is *not* dead. True, it will not receive the marketing dollars > we'd like, but that's a different issue again. I respect Ernie P from his old NeXSTEP days and would ordinarily be prepared to take his word on things. But the fact is, nothing that Apple has publically DONE in the last year or so seems to indicate any commitment at all to YB. All we have is very vague reassurances, none of them very visible. And on similar topics where we've had similar reassurances, Apple has often ended up reneging (eg OSX Server/Intel). So with all due respect to the good Dr.P., the only way that Apple can convince me (and many people I know) that they have any kind of commitment to YB is by ACTIONS, not words. Like making OSX Server available at affordable prices. Like shipping OSX Server/Intel. Do these things and I'll believe that YB is alive. Don't do them, and I'll strongly believe that YB is dead, all verbal reassurances to the contrary notwithstanding. Words just don't cut it any more. Either put up or shut up. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, apparently condemned by Apple to remain a reluctant Windows NT user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 27 Jan 1999 22:31:17 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> In-Reply-To: <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >In article <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >>In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: >> >>> Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ >> >>I never heard this. At MW SF they repeatidly said that YB for NT is on track >> >>Peter >> >I am just repeating what we were told.....time will tell. > Funny that you won't tell us WHO that was that said that. Or your own name for that matter. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: henryb@aol.com Organization: needs one References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:06:52 GMT In <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> Henry wrote: > Exactly my point.....with Apple's non interest in Yellow Box Mac OS X is > nothing more than FreeBSD with a Mac UI. Hmm, there's three points in there that I see, and I'm not convinced that any of them are correct. a) non-interest in YB. Well this is an entirely different statement than your last ones on the topic, but that's OK. The question remains on whether or no YB *as we know it* will ever be a major part of the OS. I'm around 50/50 now, and it drops by the day (as the longer it waits, the less differentiated it is). b) FreeBSD-like. Not at all. Just because the utilities and some code is from that project doesn't mean that the core OS looks or works like it. And it doesn't. c) the end is "just" MacOS on Unix. Sorry, the sum is greater than the whole IMHO. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F68ILB.LGH@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jjens@primenet.com Organization: needs one References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <F6863q.E7o@T-FCN.Net> <78nhom$red$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:07:58 GMT In <78nhom$red$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote: > I'd think this could be #ifdef'd out, or the locks could be done with > disappearing macros (perhaps this is already done), to allow single vs. > multiple CPU selection at compile time. Indeed. I think of it as a "ok, take this kernel, run this serious of (human) actions, and tune" type of thing. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Stop whining Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F68Iy2.Lty@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ellmann@msi.se Organization: needs one References: <36AF5591.DCA51DAF@msi.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:15:36 GMT In <36AF5591.DCA51DAF@msi.se> Harald Ellmann wrote: > hardware. Every move since then was a lukewarm compromise. With DPS > finally gone and an uncertain future of OPENSTEP/YB only the last *cool* > features of the original NEXTSTEP have gone. Hmmm. As someone that's moving from the Mac world to OpenStep, DPS is, to me "just an engine". I consider it's coolness factor to be about 100 times below NSString for instance. Maury
From: "Kristopher Magnusson" <kmagnusson@novell.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:33:43 -0700 Message-ID: <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> Bernhard Scholz wrote in message <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de>... >Nobody currently can convince me that there is any better Unix shell >than MacOX-X Server on the market and that NEXTSTEP/OpenStep was the >best predecessor. If MacOS-X will profit from the Unix benefits and still >look like a traditional home-OS, this will be the future and all the Linux >X11 stuff and hundreds of add-on tool-box libraries might finally become >obsolete because you get well designed replacement. There probably isn't any better Unix environment on the market than MacOS X Server. But there isn't any less free Unix environment on the market, either. I think it's about time someone put some work into bringing the quality of the NeXT and MacOS experience to a free operating system. ........... kris
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 27 Jan 1999 22:28:45 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <78o3ut$aq9$1@news.digifix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> In-Reply-To: <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >In article <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: >>On 01/26/99, Henry wrote: >>>In article <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, >>ziziz@worldnet.att.net (who is zizi) wrote: >>>>In article <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com >>says... >>>> >>>>>NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a >>few >>>>because >>>>>of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have >>a clue >>>>>about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me >>they were >>>>>killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. .... >>>> >>>>if "Yellow Box was dead", how could Web-Objects servive ? >>>> >>>>actually, it seems to me that Web-Objects is the killer.app of YB. >>>> >>>>and i have heard that the job market for web-objects is booming. >>>> >>> >>>This is what we were told from top Apple executives at Macworld.... >>> >> >> Name them. And where this 'fictional' talk took place. >> >> And at the same time, you'd better step out of the shadows >>yourself. >> >> I'm smelling a load here, since this is not what we were told >>at the BOF, nor was it what was said in an Interview with Ken Bereskin >>in a MacWorld magazine ( a foreign issue, not the US one)... > >"At WWDC, Apple promised at least a single release of Mac OS X Server on Intel >hardware. While it may be premature to panic, Apple should be reminded of this >promise, since it appears that it is on the back burner.." > >Apple's promise clearly has been broken. > >"They must regain the trust of Mac developers and retain the trust of Yellow >Box developers." > Yes.. your point is what? >Apple clearly is treating the later as expendable. > >As for the meeting, there were several witnesses with me .....it was at the >developer lunch on Wed. at Macworld. ...I don't want to start slinging names >around. Considering that the Ernie Prahbakar, Mac OS X Server Product Marketing Manager told a MUCH different story on Wednesday night, I'd say that it is definately time for you to name the individual who said this. >But I can say how sick I felt hearing this.....I was very >disappointed. Some Mac OS X programmers were surprised to hear this as well >when I told them what was said. I get the feeling there is an internal fight >going on at Apple between their marketing people and the Mac OS X team. A lot >of negativity was in the air. I wish the company would just stay focussed >.....at least the part of the company that is supposed to be "Enterprise". Why am I ever so surprised than that NOBODY HAS MENTIONED THIS IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OTHER THAN YOU??? -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F68uFo.66F@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: english@primenet.com Organization: needs one References: <F686pt.Er1@T-FCN.Net> <B2D4CD58-3931D@206.165.43.79> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:23:47 GMT In <B2D4CD58-3931D@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" wrote: > > Because it's harder. eQD is an imaging engine, DPS is more. However > >since DPS is going away that "more" is not terribly useful. > > So, you're saying that the "more" that everyone touted as being so useful > for so many reasons wasn't really "more?" I should have expected the only reply you would be able to put to electrons would contains both a putting-of-words-into-mouths, and a strawman argument in a single sentence. Well done. Maury
From: scholl@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu (Edward P Scholl) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 27 Jan 1999 15:57:58 -0500 Organization: University at Buffalo Message-ID: <78nukm$d30$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> NNTP-Posting-User: scholl C Lund (clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no) wrote: : > yes he did : > to all accounts : To reiterate what somebody else posted in response to your stupid comment : (billy G saving apple)... : BG bought 150 mill worth of Apple stock. At that time, Apple had over 1 : *billion* $US. The 150 mill from BG was hardly a plink in the bucket. : Of course, I don't expect a semi-literate 6 year old like yourself to : understand that billion >> million. uhhh, it really isn't >> greater (at least i've never used the '>>' sign used to denote something as small as a 1000 times diff, but i'm used to comparing fun stuff like Reynold's numbers and such). -ed
From: m_e_henry@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: WO4.0 -- Where to buy in Education? Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:28:11 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78oaui$7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Hi, I am a student at a Spanish university who is trying to figure out how to buy WebObjects 4.0 Academic, product number M7175Z/A. Does anybody have contact information for this? I tried to figure this out from the Apple web site. Although I got as far as the product number, I couldn't manage to get further. Hence the above question. Any pointers appreciated. Regards, Mark -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 27 Jan 1999 22:30:33 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <78o429$aqd$1@news.digifix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <78nm3p$d08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <78nm3p$d08$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 01/27/99, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: >In article <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net>, > henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: >> "At WWDC, Apple promised at least a single release of Mac OS X Server >> on Intel hardware. While it may be premature to panic, Apple should >> be reminded of this promise, since it appears that it is on the back >> burner.." >> >> Apple's promise clearly has been broken. >> > >I won't disagree with that, although it's mildly interesting to note that >others will, however this is not relevant to the immediate issue... > You better not Malc.. those are my words from a Stepwise article.. :-) >> "They must regain the trust of Mac developers and retain the trust of >> Yellow Box developers." >> >> Apple clearly is treating the later as expendable. >> >Yes, and although I don't like it, I can see why. >Would you do any different in their position? > >It's up to *us* either to "hang" in there (it's not as if there aren't plenty >of opportunities for leveraging YB skills and making money) or, as the adage >went a couple of years ago, take up pig farming. Whatever, do something >*constructive*. > >> As for the meeting, there were several witnesses with me .....it was at >> the developer lunch on Wed. at Macworld. ...I don't want to start slinging >> names around. >> >Tough, it's time to do so. > >I'll name one name who addressed a meeting ("The BoF") on Wednesday evening: >Ernest Prabhakar, "Rhapsody" Product Marketing Manager, who made it very >clear that YB is *not* dead. True, it will not receive the marketing dollars >we'd like, but that's a different issue again. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 18:28:24 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79> References: <36aeaa5d$0$16685@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said: >>And how do you call "real" objects from a non-OOP language? > >By using the runtime library that actually does all the work of >invoking methods. It's not rocket science. > >The same runtime is what lets you interface other OO and non-OO >languages to the OO objects. OK, let me get this straight. You are saying that one should use a runtime that allows you to interface non-OO objects to an OO library in an OS that didn't support OOP libraries when the system was first introduced? GX runs on System 7 Pro, you know, which doesn't have shared libraries. In fact, GX *is* an OOP runtime, from what I have heard, with a C API on top. The only real difference between GXDrawShape(myShape); and myShape.GXDrawShape(); is syntactic sugar. Say I wanted to implement a GX-like library in Carbon/YB so that non-OOP applications could use it. What syntax would I use for a non-OOP language to invoke methods other than the one that GX uses? In other words, why not implement a GX-like system in Carbon that is compatible with what the YB has, only not extensible? Or is YB graphics so dependend on the framework that you can't divorce the graphics routines from hosting framework? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:48:01 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Message-ID: <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cherie Clark wrote: > > Well I know what they had and it was 1.4 BILLION in the bank, right now You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an individual get this sort of information? Are you a bookkeeper for Apple? I don't think so. It is not typical for ANY company to say "We have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" More than anything I think that a company that HAD to state they had so much money "in the bank" would be an indication that they were struggling. Usually, companies are not measured by their held assets but by there capability at producing money. In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of money in the bank because they are using it for production and research. For Apple to have been releaseing these kinds of statistics to the public would be a sure indication that they did not have a reliable "credit" in the business world and therefore would have to rely on pure assets for any type of business transaction. > they ahve 2.6 BILLION in the bank anbd short term investments! Bite me! BG Again, where do you get your information. I don't know of ANY companies that release their net assets publically. Maybe if you were a stockholder you could get this information from a smaller corporation, but I don't think large companies release this even to stockholders. > saved Apple LOL! BG has been trying to kill Apple for years! Why would Bill Gates want to lose all of his software sales to the Apple platform?
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: 27 Jan 1999 23:20:33 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an >individual get this sort of information? You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". >It is not typical for ANY company to say "We >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very cross if this is not reported accurately. >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of >money in the bank because they are using it for production and >research. Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved many companies since HP started the tradition. -- Don McGregor | "In retrospect it becomes clear that hindsight mcgredo@mbay.net | is definitely overrated." --Alfred E. Neuman
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 18:15:48 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D50859-117034@206.165.43.79> References: <F68uFo.66F@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said: >In <B2D4CD58-3931D@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" wrote: >> > Because it's harder. eQD is an imaging engine, DPS is more. However >> >since DPS is going away that "more" is not terribly useful. >> >> So, you're saying that the "more" that everyone touted as being so useful >> for so many reasons wasn't really "more?" > > I should have expected the only reply you would be able to put to >electrons would contains both a putting-of-words-into-mouths, and a >strawman argument in a single sentence. Well done. So, you're saying that neither you nor the rest of the NeXT advocates ever touted DPS's features as being superior and essential, and that your statement ' "more" is not terribly useful' didn't repudiate the original claims of "more?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 18:34:38 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D50CC1-127954@206.165.43.79> References: <B2D502B2-101C57@206.165.43.79> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said: >If you add in GX's >per-color-channel transfer modes, it is even less PDF-like, but still >trivial to do. The "trivial" is in reference to having scrolling, non-opaque text on top of a bitmap background, not in reference to saving the image in PDF format. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990847430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <78o40p$aqa$1@news.digifix.com> Message-ID: <sdPr2.44$qN.469777@news.bctel.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:39:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:39:36 PDT In article <78o40p$aqa$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: >On 01/27/99, Peter wrote: >>In article <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) >wrote: >> >>> "At WWDC, Apple promised at least a single release of Mac OS X >Server on >>Intel >>> hardware. While it may be premature to panic, Apple should be >reminded >>of this >>> promise, since it appears that it is on the back burner.." >> >>YB does not have to come to Intel hardware by releasing a complete >OS. >>Just the YB APIs need to be ported and they need to be able to >function on >>top of the NT kernal. With this said, WHY ARE YOU REPEATING THE >MANTRA YB >>is dead? >>Like I said earlier, YB APIs are going to be released that runs on >the NT >>kernal. This is a statement of Fact. What is not known is how the >APIs >>will be distributed and how much the will cost. > > > Just for the record, those are MY WORDS, from an article on >Stepwise.. not his. Why he is reprinting them here is beyond me. > > And I'm not in any way saying YB is dead. I didn't mean to offend you...I quoted your words to remind people that Apple has previously made promises regarding Mac OS X ...promises that were ultimately broken. Believe me..I want OPENSTEP to survive as much as anyone else.....but I see what is happening and its not very pleasant. You have done an excellent job with Stepwise...and perhaps GNUstep will be mature enough to be featured there as well....one day. As for Apple...you were not there. I was...I heard what they had to say.....I can't describe how angry those suits made me feel!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <78o3ut$aq9$1@news.digifix.com> Message-ID: <cxPr2.45$qN.486212@news.bctel.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:00:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:00:40 PDT In article <78o3ut$aq9$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > > Considering that the Ernie Prahbakar, Mac OS X Server Product >Marketing Manager told a MUCH different story on Wednesday night, I'd >say that it is definately time for you to name the individual who said >this. > . > > Why am I ever so surprised than that NOBODY HAS MENTIONED THIS >IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OTHER THAN YOU??? > The individual is higher up than Ernie....... you can't expect me to name him in this public forum....perhaps I will E-Mail you privately... Believe me, what I say can be backed up by others...some individuals you know. ...the fact remains....Apple remains evasive on OS X ....and on Yellow Box. When is Apple going to publicly make commitments on their plans with OS X? Also...Steve Jobs told me personally that here will 'NO" Intel release...and there will be no Hardware options other than G3's....I asked him several times about his old OPENSTEP customers .......all I can say is you better buy G3's ..even if you have $250K plus already invested in Enterprise hardware! I can see I'm getting myself in trouble here...so again...time will tell.
From: drehring@infowave.com (David Rehring) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:00:19 -0800 Organization: Infowave Software, Inc. Message-ID: <drehring-2701991800190001@host123.gdt.com> References: <78o7tn$pdn@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <B2D502B2-101C57@206.165.43.79> Everyone, I had the feeling we were overdue for one of these GX-vs-rest of the world threads... ;-) Later, -- David Rehring Psychos do not explode when light hits Senior Software Engineer them, no matter how crazy they are... Infowave Software, Inc. And totally insane guy!
From: "Eric Blair" <chekov00@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?2GCFLr29LoWl2GCFLr29LoWl2GAgIAlIYXBweSAxNXRo?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?IEJpcnRoZGF5IC0gTWFjaW50b3NoISAgCWCFLr29LoWl2GCFLr29LoWl?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?2A==?=` Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:40:02 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <78ofp8$jfm$1@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > i certainly wouldn't cry if a downturn were to wipe microsoft off the > face of the planet. > > -- > Johan Kullstam [johan19@idt.net] Don't Fear the Penguin! I'll drink to that!
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Date: 28 Jan 1999 02:28:26 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> Kevin Stone (stone@stoneentertainment.com) wrote: : In article <5tFr2.24$fx3.275@news6.ispnews.com>, "Lance Togar" : > Eric A. Dubiel wrote in message <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net>... : > >Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... : > > : > >Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging : > >privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." : > > : > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html : > > : > >Big Brother Inside. : > .. : > Oh.... and where were you when they slipped the V-Chip in your TV? : Lance... many people intentialy avioded televisions with that technology : too. They didn't want anyone imposing pre-determined ratings on what : programs they should or should not allow their children to watch. So in a : way Eric does have a point. But you can just as easily pick up an AMD : processor (with a compatible MB) and be done with Intel all together. Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
Message-ID: <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> From: "H.W. Stockman" <hwstock@wizard.com> Organization: Lentil Sorbet, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:11:09 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:07:20 MDT David T. Wang wrote: > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says > > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 > > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. I got so infuriated with the web tracking, that I pulled the ROM with the 6-byte code out of my ethernet card. But now I can't see the other systems on my network. What can I do to fix the problem? I know, it must be the serial number burned into my BIOS. Here, I've almost got the BIOS, let me pull it out, OK, here goes ~~~~```*;":'>,n892r5 cdv [pfffft]
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <36af3ac1.8628661@news.icx.net> Message-ID: <fxQr2.25957$bf6.6528@news1.giganews.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:08:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:08:59 CDT On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:32:30 GMT, Michael McCulloch <mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote: >cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote: > >>On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:33:10 GMT, Henry <henryb@aol.com> wrote: >> >>>....how is GNUstep coming along? >> >>Apparently looking for some developers to take on an effort to "spruce >>up" Display Ghostscript so as to make it usable. > >Perhaps some informed person can summarize why Display Ghostscript is >so necessary. The only obvious benefit to me is unified imaging and >printing model. Although, Type 1 font support also comes to mind. It is necessary to the degree that conformance with OpenStep is desired, as OpenStep assumes availability of DPS rendering. The "most functional" way of using GNUstep at this point is to use the alternative XRaw methods, that talk to X, eschewing the use of DPS. Obviously leaving you unable to use any of the special things that DPS make possible, but, as you say, possibly allowing different sorts of optimizations. -- "...Deep Hack Mode--that mysterious and frightening state of consciousness where Mortal Users fear to tread." (By Matt Welsh) cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/xgnustep.html>
From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:23:40 +0100 Organization: University of Bonn, Germany Message-ID: <1dmbpoq.ngnes2zgp2wwN@ascend-tk-p173.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <jpolaski-2001991003560001@d147-54.ce.mediaone.net> <stevehix-2001990902030001@192.168.1.10> User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 Hi, Steve! Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote: > Sun's usually the same. For starters, localization (translation) > processes take more time... I was told that this is not the problem. Localization takes time, but can be done during the testing phase of the release. No major delay is induced here. The April delay comes from the fact that Apple wants to train their european support people first... :-/ Dirk -- http://theisen.home.pages.de/
From: Hosun Sacreligious Lee <holee@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: 28 Jan 1999 03:39:22 GMT Organization: Vorpal Bunnies Unlimited Message-ID: <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> H.W. Stockman <hwstock@wizard.com> writes: : David T. Wang wrote: : > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says : > : > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 : > : > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope : > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. : I got so infuriated with the web tracking, that I pulled : the ROM with the 6-byte code out of my ethernet card. But : now I can't see the other systems on my network. What : can I do to fix the problem? I know, it must be the serial : number burned into my BIOS. Here, I've almost got the Don't forget the microchips that the CIA's implanted in your arse. : BIOS, let me pull it out, OK, here goes ~~~~```*;":'>,n892r5 cdv : [pfffft] Microsoft released a new process to disable all such features in your processor and desktop. Take one larger hammer, smash your computer. Go to cave. Hide. Repeat until you get a grip. -- \\ \\ Hosun S. Lee // Vorpal Bunny(TM) \\-\\ http://www.vorpalbunny.com ( 0-0) "My advice to intelligent teenagers in love: Take your dates to {_^_} THE WATERBOY. If they like it, break up." - Roger Ebert on the worst movies of 1998.
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2701992000090001@term6-9.vta.west.net> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <sOSFzV2OQpet@cc.usu.edu> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:00:08 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:00:09 PDT In article <sOSFzV2OQpet@cc.usu.edu>, root@127.0.0.1 wrote: >Try smelling the coffee. Adobe wants DPS dead, and they're not going to >negotiate a licence for YB no matter how long or loud Stevie pleads with >them. I'm afraid that Adobe has "Steve'd" DPS, and this time it's Apple >that got stuck. A little ironic, don't you think, seeing as how that's >the way Apple treats their own developers. I guess what goes around, comes >around, eventually. > >YB is dead, dead, dead. Pardon me, I'm not a developer, but in what way is the death of a graphics engine (DPS) related to the death of an API (OpenStep/YB). YB is in OSX Server. It will be in OSX consumer, but with eQD (PDF) instead of DPS. Likewise, just because Apple is pushing Java as opposed to Obj-C doesn't mean that you are suddenly forbidden to use Obj-C. Though the words that you claim were spoken to you at MacWorld (YB is DEAD, OBj-C is DEAD, Apple doesn't care about you stupid NeXTers, blah blah blah) certainly do sound quite harsh, they are the words of individuals, probably change-weary Macophiles (as opposed to open-minded people who just prefer the Mac; trying to make it clear that I'm not bashing Mac users, as I am one). Apple is trying to please the masses, big dev houses like Adobe and MS, with pushing Carbon ahead of YB, and is taking advantage of the hype over Java by downplaying Obj-C. But YB and Obj-C are still there for you to use, and if they become popular enough through all the wonderfull products you people will produce with them, then they'll stay in. If everybody here abandons Apple because they aren't holding the minority (you) over the majority (them), then YB and Obj-C and everything you love really *will* be DEAD, not just downplayed. -- -Forrest Cameranesi
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 28 Jan 1999 02:41:05 GMT Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center Message-ID: <78oio1$qd$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <F68IAJ.L8o@T-FCN.Net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 1999 02:41:05 GMT maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> "Kristopher Magnusson" wrote: > > I think it's about time someone put some work into bringing the quality > > of the NeXT and MacOS experience to a free operating system. > Is it possible? In my experience writing and debugging the GUI is about > 10 times as hard as the rest of the system. GNUstep seems to suggest "yes", if only we all help a bit more... Bye Uli -- _____________________________________________________________________ Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: - D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007 Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042 _____________________________________________________________________
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:01:33 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development (not) Message-ID: <78one5$dg$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 1999 04:01:09 GMT I'm sure Cherie got those figures from a press article which no doubt did research on the matter. What is known for sure is that BG's "bailout" was a drop in the ocean of Apple's cash. Simon Wright. Brandon Forehand wrote in message <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu>... >"Simon WrightŪ" wrote: >> That's correct, Donald. If any company publicly traded (e.g., has a stock >> price) doesn't give accurate statements of their bank balance, would you >> invest in them? Not very darn likely. > >Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that a bank balance is a very >good indication of how well a company is doing. I was unaware of the >"Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments" that Donald so >nicely pointed out. I guess I just don't do that much stock >investments. I'm more of a mutual funds kind of person. Anyway, nobody >answered my question of where Cherie got HER source or a documentation >of the quoted number of the actual saved assets of Apple. I think that >before anyone speculates the results or reasons of Bill Gates' >investment into Apple that the ACTUAL figure for Apple's assets at that >the time of the investment should be given with documentation. Giving >such a number without any sort of reference appears to be taken off the >top of your head, and automatically draws skepticism.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Message-ID: <a4kSOHsInRbw@cc.usu.edu> From: root@127.0.0.1 Date: 26 Jan 99 17:00:12 MDT References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> Henry wrote: > In article <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl>, "Abraham" <ab@twiguyt.twi.tudelft.nl> wrote: > >It seems that yellow box cross platform development with MacOS X server has > >been de-emphasized by Apple. > > > >The MacOS X Server page has been changed by Apple yesterday and the 'cross > >plaform development' phrase has gone ! > > > > This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide Developer > relations told us a Macworld ........ > > "YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" > > We were also told Objective-C will no longer be supported because Apple is > pushing Java.....needless to say we all know what Mac OS X is heavily > dependant upon. Well, is this surprising? It fits the previous pattern that Apple has used in killing technology it no longer feels fits into its "marketing plans". I've said it before, I'll say it again. Yellow Box is dead, dead, dead. And Apple wishes that we would just forget it ever existed. Dead, dead, dead.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 15:37:47 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79> References: <36af8920.0@news.depaul.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said: >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote: >> malcolm@plsys.co.uk said: > >> >In article <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151>, >> > "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: >> >> Really? That flies in the face of Apple's official statements about why >> >> they dumped DPS... Why didn't they use their own GhostScript instead? >> >> >> >Where on earth did this "their own GhostScript" come from?! >> >Do you wantonly make this stuff up? > >> Apple has their own routines to draw onscreen. Why not use [or create] >> their own [equivalent of] GhostScript? > >Since they have their own drawing code, the task of creating their own >Ghostscript would essentially consist of writing a Postscript >interpreter and reverse engineering the behaviors of Adobe's >imaging model implementation. > >Which begs the question, "why bother"? Why not forget about the >interpreter, and use their own drawing functions to implement >the PDF imaging model, rather than the full Postscript spec? > >And lo, that's supposedly what they're doing. > > But one of the big selling points of NeXT was supposedly the DPS model, which allowed every app true WYSIWYG drawing, so that every app could use DTP-level drawing. EPS, for instance, was available to all. The GX model is obviously superior in many ways to the PDF model but Apple isn't using that, NOR the DPS model. The question then arises: what is good about the PDF model? Answer: Not much. It supplies less than DPS and less than GX. It is the least common denominator format, and looks to limit Apple's 2D imaging options. DPS at least had the advantage of being a geniuine programmable language. PDF uses the limited PS graphics model, and it doesn't appear to be extensible in any rational way. I mean, if you extend the built-in PDF objects to handle perspective transforms, said objects won't be manipulatable or displayable in a generic PDF-using app, so you'll need to provide TWO renditions of the image in the PDF file: a MacOS-specific version that includes whatever non-PDF transforms are available, and the generic PDF version, which is a dumbed down, non-editable (at least in transform terms) version of the same image. Ditto with non-opaque compositing modes using alpha channels or GX-style transfer modes, or groupings of shapes. The PDF "metafile" solution might be OK for external distribution for pre-press , but it will definitely bloat image-size if you need to maintain two different versions of the equivalent image in the same file. PDF should be a *print* format, but it doesn't make sense as an image distribution format between Macs or between applications on the same Mac. If you eliminate the default PDF image description and only pass the custom info, then you'd be left with a completely propietary image description that happens to use a few PDF-like conventions for its syntax, and a PDF header. In which case, why bother with PDF in the first place? Is it the best format for such custom images? Is it so that Carbon apps can use the format? That splits the Mac market *again* I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 27 Jan 1999 22:29:45 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <78o40p$aqa$1@news.digifix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990847430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> In-Reply-To: <pxpst2-2701990847430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> On 01/27/99, Peter wrote: >In article <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > >> "At WWDC, Apple promised at least a single release of Mac OS X Server on >Intel >> hardware. While it may be premature to panic, Apple should be reminded >of this >> promise, since it appears that it is on the back burner.." > >YB does not have to come to Intel hardware by releasing a complete OS. >Just the YB APIs need to be ported and they need to be able to function on >top of the NT kernal. With this said, WHY ARE YOU REPEATING THE MANTRA YB >is dead? >Like I said earlier, YB APIs are going to be released that runs on the NT >kernal. This is a statement of Fact. What is not known is how the APIs >will be distributed and how much the will cost. Just for the record, those are MY WORDS, from an article on Stepwise.. not his. Why he is reprinting them here is beyond me. And I'm not in any way saying YB is dead. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 28 Jan 1999 04:06:45 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <78onol$hc3$1@news.digifix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> <aMzr2.1$qN.20@news.bctel.net> <78o3ut$aq9$1@news.digifix.com> <cxPr2.45$qN.486212@news.bctel.net> In-Reply-To: <cxPr2.45$qN.486212@news.bctel.net> On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >In article <78o3ut$aq9$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > >> >> Considering that the Ernie Prahbakar, Mac OS X Server Product >>Marketing Manager told a MUCH different story on Wednesday night, I'd >>say that it is definately time for you to name the individual who said >>this. >> >.. >> >> Why am I ever so surprised than that NOBODY HAS MENTIONED THIS >>IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OTHER THAN YOU??? >> > > >The individual is higher up than Ernie....... you can't expect me to name him >in this public forum....perhaps I will E-Mail you privately... > If these were public statements, then yes, I can. >Believe me, what I say can be backed up by others...some individuals you know. > And its interesting that NOT ONE OF THOSE have contacted me in the weeks since. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: 28 Jan 1999 04:20:33 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> In article <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu>, >I think that >before anyone speculates the results or reasons of Bill Gates' >investment into Apple that the ACTUAL figure for Apple's assets at that >the time of the investment should be given with documentation. The Apple annual report is linked off of their web site. (About Apple-> Investor relations). The actual URL it links to is very long, so I'll skip that. The annual report from September 1998 has this line for cash and equivalents, in millions: 1998 1997 1996 1995 1994 --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- $ 2,300 $ 1,459 $ 1,745 $ 952 $ 1,258 -- Don McGregor | "In retrospect it becomes clear that hindsight mcgredo@mbay.net | is definitely overrated." --Alfred E. Neuman
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Date: 28 Jan 1999 04:41:27 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <78oppn$gq0$1@hecate.umd.edu> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> David Steuber (trashcan@david-steuber.com) wrote: : ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric) writes: : -> As for SMP - well, Linux's SMP support so far is less than impressive : -> and no better than NT's (though I'm sure in time it will improve : -> vastly). But quite besides that, just how relevant is SMP support : -> anyway outside the enterprise server, at least, in the present? Dual : -> (let alone more) CPU Intel boxes are for the present still very much a : -> rarity, even amongst power users. This may well change in 6/12s, 1 yr, : -> 2yrs' time or whenever, but until dual or more CPU systems become more : -> widespread, SMP support is mostly of purely academic interest. : SMP would be nice to have. But until the kernel is multithreaded, : performance won't increase linearly with additional CPUs. All time : spent in system will be multiplied by the number of CPUs. From what I : hear, writing a multithreaded kernel is not easy. : The 2.2 kernel distribution is now siting around 1.6 million lines of : code. I've heard estimates for W2K ranging from 35 to 50 million : lines of code. There is no way NT will ever scale up, unless it has a : multithreaded kernel. It looks like it will be easier to add that to : Linux. Whether that ever happens largely depends on what effort the : kernel implimentors are willing to put in. : As things currently stand, SMP support is largely irrelevant to me. : With CPUs getting more powerful according to moore's law, I find : single CPU boxes to be more economical. But that is me as an : individual. I can see situations where space is a major consideration : and multi-CPU machines are more economical. They won't be running : Linux until it is multithreaded. I guess that all I can write is... "Huh?" Linux is multithreaded != multithreaded kernel. : -- : David Steuber : http://www.david-steuber.com : s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail : When will Altoids be available in 'extra strength'? -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:01:10 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Message-ID: <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Simon WrightŪ" wrote: > That's correct, Donald. If any company publicly traded (e.g., has a stock > price) doesn't give accurate statements of their bank balance, would you > invest in them? Not very darn likely. Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that a bank balance is a very good indication of how well a company is doing. I was unaware of the "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments" that Donald so nicely pointed out. I guess I just don't do that much stock investments. I'm more of a mutual funds kind of person. Anyway, nobody answered my question of where Cherie got HER source or a documentation of the quoted number of the actual saved assets of Apple. I think that before anyone speculates the results or reasons of Bill Gates' investment into Apple that the ACTUAL figure for Apple's assets at that the time of the investment should be given with documentation. Giving such a number without any sort of reference appears to be taken off the top of your head, and automatically draws skepticism.
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:59 -0700 Organization: Stone Entertainment Message-ID: <stone-2701991048590001@rc-pm3-1-25.enetis.net> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <5tFr2.24$fx3.275@news6.ispnews.com> In article <5tFr2.24$fx3.275@news6.ispnews.com>, "Lance Togar" <ltogar@msn.com> wrote: > Eric A. Dubiel wrote in message <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net>... > >Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... > > > >Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging > >privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." > > > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html > > > >Big Brother Inside. > .. > Oh.... and where were you when they slipped the V-Chip in your TV? Lance... many people intentialy avioded televisions with that technology too. They didn't want anyone imposing pre-determined ratings on what programs they should or should not allow their children to watch. So in a way Eric does have a point. But you can just as easily pick up an AMD processor (with a compatible MB) and be done with Intel all together. -Kevin Stone "To err is human. You need a computer to really fuc& thinks up." - Cyber City Oedo
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: 28 Jan 1999 04:25:20 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <78oorg$74m$1@remarQ.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom> <78of4u$1ts$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >>> I think Microsoft >>> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around >>> the house. Whoops. A look at MS's annual report shows for cash on hand, in millions: 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 ---- ------ ---- ---- ---- 3,614 4,750 6,940 8,966 13,927 I blinked and Bill got even further along in his plot to own every dollar in the universe. -- Don McGregor | "In retrospect it becomes clear that hindsight mcgredo@mbay.net | is definitely overrated." --Alfred E. Neuman
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <36ae8da2.0@news.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: The bright side... Message-ID: <TXRr2.12133$XY6.304857@news.san.rr.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:44:08 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:45:39 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Jonathan W Hendry wrote in message <36ae8da2.0@news.depaul.edu>... >For better or worse, it looks like the csna NeXT vs. Mac UI flame >wars have ended. We could start them again now or wait until Mac OS X Server is out. --Ed.
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Message-ID: <tbrown-2801990026020001@da184.ecr.net> References: <36aeaa5d$0$16685@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:26:02 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:26:41 CDT In article <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: >Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said: > >>>And how do you call "real" objects from a non-OOP language? >> >>By using the runtime library that actually does all the work of >>invoking methods. It's not rocket science. >> >>The same runtime is what lets you interface other OO and non-OO >>languages to the OO objects. > >OK, let me get this straight. You are saying that one should use a runtime >that allows you to interface non-OO objects to an OO library in an OS that >didn't support OOP libraries when the system was first introduced? Yes, I think he was clear on this. >GX runs on System 7 Pro, you know, which doesn't have shared libraries. A valid point. But, then the first thing that you do is solve this problem. You create the runtime system first, and make it completely separate from the imaging model. To wit, GX would use it, but would be entirely separate from it. He's saying that Apple should have created some kind of Common Object Model, and used it throughout all OO Apple projects. Insted of insightfull planning, Apple got years of infighting over various object models, and ended up in the various Taligent & OpenDoc messes. NeXT did this in from it's inception, and later easily extened it to OLE, creating distributed OLE (D'OLE) years before MS offered it as well as supporting other object models when they came out. And, NeXT's solution was easier to use, it fit right in with DO (Direct Objects) and the native messaging system already present. Developers had _one_ messaging system for Objects, not multiple ones. Unfortunately, you aren't going to get this with a pure C++ solution, and that's why so many teams took the path into darkness. >In fact, GX *is* an OOP runtime, from what I have heard, with a C API on >top. GX doesn't count as a 'runtime' in this context. It's statically linked, therefore you have to make bunches of static C libs to call the library. A runtime is dynamic, so allows any program to call into the OO system without having to craft existing API interfaces. You know, the tedious work you are doing for the GX Hypercard stack. To do the same under OpenStep, you wire your calling language (Hypercard) into the runtime, and then you're done. You have access to _all_ the API's callable from the runtime. And this has been done for multiple languages like C++, java, perl, tcl, and python. Sadly, OpenDoc had the same problem. From what I can tell from the outside, they crafted byzantine C++ code to offer the same features as the Obj-C runtime, then wasted more effort to upgrade C++ compliers to support this. The Obj-C runtime isn't that big, nor is it that much of a performance hit, even on an 030. OpenDoc however, never really struck me as fast, and I ran it on a PPC that was much faster than my pitiful 030 NeXT cube. I know that there are more factors than just the object model, but it seemed that the complex object model led to an overextended system to make up for it's lack, and that ruined performance. It didn't help that OpenDoc had to be a mini-OS to make up for the creaky old Mac OS. -- tbrown@netset.com
From: "Todd" <goaway@emailmenot.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:39:32 -0700 References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom> Organization: Arizona Network Communications Message-ID: <78of4u$1ts$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Johan Kullstam <johan19@idt.net> wrote in message news:m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom... >mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) writes: > >> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash >> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. > >nod. this is ok. > >> I think Microsoft >> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around >> the house. > >> It's a volatile business, and you don't want one >> downturn to take down the whole company. > >that depends on the company ;-) > >i certainly wouldn't cry if a downturn were to wipe microsoft off the >face of the planet. > >-- >Johan Kullstam [johan19@idt.net] Don't Fear the Penguin! Which one? The Linux penguin, or the Quicktime penguin? Todd
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 17:51:14 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D502B2-101C57@206.165.43.79> References: <78o7tn$pdn@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> said: >> The PDF "metafile" > >Who said anything about the file representation? The issue is the >imaging model, which is a different matter entirely. The imaging >model involves things like color space handling, line-painting >decisions, etc. The ability to easily display PDF files is >a plus, but the file format is not a constraint on the operation >of such a system. The idea, I think, is to make sure that >graphics from MacOS/X are easily represented - when necessary - >as PDF files, without having to jump through image conversion >hoops or generating inconsistencies. > >For example, if the OS/X display model used a different algorithm >from PDF for deciding which pixels to mark to draw a shape, then >when an image was converted to PDF for printing, the image would be >different from what was on-screen. That would be bad. > But, how is that different from what GX already does [leaving aside limitations of quadratic vs cubic Beziers]? The GX conventions for drawing are a superset of PS's WRT transform matrices and transfer [composit] modes, and quadratics are a subset of cubics, so there's no valid conversion issue for geometric info. By adopting the limited PDF as the image exchange format, Apple makes the statement that the default image format is no better than PDF. This is stupid, considering what they are giving up with GX. Better to add the GX tranfsers modes and the legendary 4x4 transform matrix to the eQD cubic Beziers, and come up with an internal format that is more in-line with what Apple can do. Reserve the PDF for a non-MacOS X pre-press file format or for export to non-MacOS X apps. >How images are represented in memory need not follow the PDF spec >at all. They could be be TIFFs, JPGs, raw bits, interpreted drawing >scripts, objects which encapsulate all of the above, or networks >of such objects. That network of objects might contain PDF >documents, or it might not. > But how does one pass such images from one application or Mac to another? Here's a trivial example of how the PDF format fails in comparison to GX. It will be part of my GXFCN demo: take a bitmap and draw it offscreen in RGBA mode. Now take some text and composit it on top of that bitmap using an alpha channel for the text. Now draw onscreen. Now scroll the text while leaving the bitmap background static. GX and NeXT's DPS (and even the YB/Carbon graphics, I believe) can display this properly, but if you save it in standard PDF format, you lose the alpha channel info. Either the text must be saved in an opaque format, or you must add auxiliary info that won't be standard for PDF in the first place, or you must convert the text to vectors, figure out the opaque equivalent of the intersection of the bitmap and the transparent text, and make it the default PDF image and leave the custom image in custom objects that the standard PDF reader doesn't know about. If you add in GX's per-color-channel transfer modes, it is even less PDF-like, but still trivial to do. No matter how you look at it, image sharing between apps and Macs via PDF will require bloating of the image file or will require the definition of numerous non-standard PDF objects. And the more non-standard things you add, the less useful the PDF format becomes. Consider trying to define GX inks, styles and transforms using the PDF model. How do you define nested shapes at all? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 22:51:30 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D548F4-209E52@206.165.43.79> References: <drehring-2701991800190001@host123.gdt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc David Rehring <drehring@infowave.com> said: >Everyone, > >I had the feeling we were overdue for one of these GX-vs-rest of the world >threads... But this isn't really about GX, but about what Carbon and YB are expected to be doing. GX won't live past 8.6, unless it be as an unsupported library (which is odd since the only release of the OS where it appears as an option in the primary installer script is 8.5). However, the idea of an object-based, retained-mode graphics library that can be used via a non-OOP API in Carbon, that is compatible with the graphics library for YB is still a viable concept, I think. And we WOULD get a lot of benefits from this capability, even if many are unwilling to acknowledge them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:53:39 -0800 From: stevehix@safemail.com (Steve Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Message-ID: <stevehix-2701992253390001@192.168.1.10> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <jpolaski-2001991003560001@d147-54.ce.mediaone.net> <stevehix-2001990902030001@192.168.1.10> <1dmbpoq.ngnes2zgp2wwN@ascend-tk-p173.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Organization: Blackrock Systems In article <1dmbpoq.ngnes2zgp2wwN@ascend-tk-p173.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>, theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) wrote: > Hi, Steve! > > Steve Hix <stevehix@safemail.com> wrote: > > Sun's usually the same. For starters, localization (translation) > > processes take more time... > > I was told that this is not the problem. Localization takes time, but > can be done during the testing phase of the release. No major delay is > induced here. Doesn't work that way here (for Sun). If we want to ship everything at the same time, the docs have to be finalized and off to the printers at least 4 weeks before FCS. And if something major comes up during final testing that requires changes to the docs? Oops... Or worse, Marketing forgets to give the product a real name until two days before the deadline for sending everything off to the printer. > The April delay comes from the fact that Apple wants to train their > european support people first... :-/ Yet more time. I suppose they could base their training on beta docs, save some time.
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4s & AltiVec Release? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 28 Jan 1999 01:44:59 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <78ofer$95i$4@hecate.umd.edu> References: <36AABD22.8BA3075E@mediaone.net> <78l146$6pj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> mr_organic@my-dejanews.com wrote: : In article <36AABD22.8BA3075E@mediaone.net>, : "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: : > Anyone have more details on Apple's G4s if they will initially come : > w/AltiVec and the projected release date? The Mot says production : > during the first half of 1999.... : Based on reports I've seen in AppleInsider, MacOSRumors, and other news sites, : the G4's should make it into the "sawtooth" machines from Apple late this : year. My guess is that they'll appear in the high-end models initially; Apple : will probably stick with the G3 for the lower-end machines. : > It seems that the G4/AltiVec is worth waiting for if the need is not : > immediate. Imagine OS X on that new computer... : It does look cool. Check out the article on MacKiDo that explains the : differences between MMX and AltiVec : (http://www.mackido.com/Hardware/MMX_VMX.html). Not this thing again. Read as you may, but just keep in mind, do NOT infer anything about KNI from Mr Every's comparison of MMX and Altivec. : > Also see http://www.macspeedzone.com/4.0/G4news.html : > : > Thx, : > -Eric -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:52:31 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development (not) Message-ID: <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 1999 01:52:08 GMT >>It is not typical for ANY company to say "We >>have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" Thanks Brandon, for sharing that bullshit with us. >It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very >cross if this is not reported accurately. That's correct, Donald. If any company publicly traded (e.g., has a stock price) doesn't give accurate statements of their bank balance, would you invest in them? Not very darn likely. Simon Wright.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:28:05 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78p3i0$jjm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <78mrdj$m27$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <78mrdj$m27$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > No, we were not. We were told that the centre of gravity of language support > will shift from Obj-C to Java over the next 18-36 months. And what, exactly, does that mean? > Insofar as anyone *knows* anything about MacOS X, I "know" it will be MacOS X > Server with the addition of Carbon, and with DPS replaced by a new > lightweitght window server. YB is still very much in there. And, most likely, the removal of several software components more appropriate for server use (WebObjects, AppleShare, etc). > If you can't see the opportunities before you that's your problem. And if > you want to distort reports out of all recognition and then believe them, > that's your problem too. There are opportunities everywhere. The question is why one would pursue an opportunity with YB when there are lower risk and higher return opportunities elsewhere? How long should you wait if you love the technology but are afraid that Apple with devalue or destroy it? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: thingfishhhh@yahoo.com (Thingfishhhh) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Message-ID: <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:57:50 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:57:16 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services In article <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, Hosun Sacreligious Lee <holee@primenet.com> wrote: > H.W. Stockman <hwstock@wizard.com> writes: > : David T. Wang wrote: > > : > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says > : > > : > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 > : > > : > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope > : > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. This smacks more of the marketing weasels than anything else - who else would benfit more from the technology, besides law enforcement and the government? A bona-fide way of tracking people across the web? One that is not as obvious as cookies and such? The future is *information* - just like those "discount" cards that the supermarkets here in the US have - not only do you get cheap prices, but the chains get an unabashed look at YOUR buying habits. The next obvious step is for health companies to access such databases when you try to claim...have high cholesterol? Sorry, our research shows you bought bacon and eggs on a weekly basis. Next. I doubt that Intel came up with this on their own - someone had a hand in implementing this. Who was it? Government? Business? Law enforcement? And it *is* a tough issue - I like the idea that someone, like a hacker, or child porn trader, can be tracked and found by their CPU's registration. But in this modern age, such tools will also be used for bad, and right now I don't trust any of them. After watching the Government try to ram the V-Chips down our throats, and the fiasco that is encryption policy, I just don;t want them to have the ability to find me online with little or no effort, or have access to my habits, interests, or profile.
From: Harald Ellmann <ellmann@msi.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Stop whining Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:36:23 +0100 Organization: Stockholm University Distribution: world Message-ID: <36B02103.3032F2C4@msi.se> References: <36AF5591.DCA51DAF@msi.se> <F68Iy2.Lty@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> Maury Markowitz wrote: > Hmmm. As someone that's moving from the Mac world to OpenStep, DPS is, > to me "just an engine". I consider it's coolness factor to be about 100 > times below NSString for instance. > > Maury Maybe you are right here, Maury. I am a physicist and do not know anything about the technical details. Itīs just that something that made the original NeXT OS so well integrated and seamlessly working is gone. I am thinking, for instance, of NXhosting, which, as far as I have understood won't be possible with eQD, at least not with some additional effort. And true WYSIWYG will be gone, too, right? But my original point was that the whole package (NeXTSTEP and NEXTComputer) was subsequently diluted and it seems that this process is continuing (if Henryīs claims are correct). Harald
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2D4CCD0-37351@206.165.43.79> Message-ID: <36af8920.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 27 Jan 99 21:46:08 GMT In comp.sys.next.advocacy Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote: > malcolm@plsys.co.uk said: > >In article <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151>, > > "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: > >> Really? That flies in the face of Apple's official statements about why > >> they dumped DPS... Why didn't they use their own GhostScript instead? > >> > >Where on earth did this "their own GhostScript" come from?! > >Do you wantonly make this stuff up? > Apple has their own routines to draw onscreen. Why not use [or create] > their own [equivalent of] GhostScript? Since they have their own drawing code, the task of creating their own Ghostscript would essentially consist of writing a Postscript interpreter and reverse engineering the behaviors of Adobe's imaging model implementation. Which begs the question, "why bother"? Why not forget about the interpreter, and use their own drawing functions to implement the PDF imaging model, rather than the full Postscript spec? And lo, that's supposedly what they're doing.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Message-ID: <sOSFzV2OQpet@cc.usu.edu> From: root@127.0.0.1 Date: 27 Jan 99 04:41:48 MDT References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <78mams$kiq$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote: > On 01/26/99, Henry wrote: > >In article <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, > ziziz@worldnet.att.net (who is zizi) wrote: > >>In article <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com > says... > >> > >>>NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a > few > >>because > >>>of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have > a clue > >>>about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me > they were > >>>killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. .... > >> > >>if "Yellow Box was dead", how could Web-Objects servive ? > >> > >>actually, it seems to me that Web-Objects is the killer.app of YB. > >> > >>and i have heard that the job market for web-objects is booming. > >> > > > >This is what we were told from top Apple executives at Macworld.... > > > > Name them. And where this 'fictional' talk took place. > > And at the same time, you'd better step out of the shadows > yourself. > > I'm smelling a load here, since this is not what we were told > at the BOF, nor was it what was said in an Interview with Ken Bereskin > in a MacWorld magazine ( a foreign issue, not the US one)... No more fictional than the "high-level" sources being quoted here by other persons hiding behind NDA that "things are happening". Hey, we've been smelling a load from Apple now for what, one year? Two? Try smelling the coffee. Adobe wants DPS dead, and they're not going to negotiate a licence for YB no matter how long or loud Stevie pleads with them. I'm afraid that Adobe has "Steve'd" DPS, and this time it's Apple that got stuck. A little ironic, don't you think, seeing as how that's the way Apple treats their own developers. I guess what goes around, comes around, eventually. YB is dead, dead, dead.
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 1999 23:36:23 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <78o7tn$pdn@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <36af8920.0@news.depaul.edu> <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> wrote: > Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said: > > > >Which begs the question, "why bother"? Why not forget about the > >interpreter, and use their own drawing functions to implement > >the PDF imaging model, rather than the full Postscript spec? > > > >And lo, that's supposedly what they're doing. > > > > > But one of the big selling points of NeXT was supposedly the DPS model, > which allowed every app true WYSIWYG drawing, so that every app could use > DTP-level drawing. EPS, for instance, was available to all. > The GX model is obviously superior in many ways to the PDF model but Apple > isn't using that, NOR the DPS model. > The question then arises: > what is good about the PDF model? > Answer: > Not much. It supplies less than DPS and less than GX. It is the least > common denominator format, and looks to limit Apple's 2D imaging options. It is, however, a model that's been adopted pretty widely in the industry, unlike GX. Further, it need not *limit* Apple. Apple could certainly make their implementation a superset of the standard PDF features. (Similar to what was done with NeXT's DPS) > The PDF "metafile" Who said anything about the file representation? The issue is the imaging model, which is a different matter entirely. The imaging model involves things like color space handling, line-painting decisions, etc. The ability to easily display PDF files is a plus, but the file format is not a constraint on the operation of such a system. The idea, I think, is to make sure that graphics from MacOS/X are easily represented - when necessary - as PDF files, without having to jump through image conversion hoops or generating inconsistencies. For example, if the OS/X display model used a different algorithm from PDF for deciding which pixels to mark to draw a shape, then when an image was converted to PDF for printing, the image would be different from what was on-screen. That would be bad. How images are represented in memory need not follow the PDF spec at all. They could be be TIFFs, JPGs, raw bits, interpreted drawing scripts, objects which encapsulate all of the above, or networks of such objects. That network of objects might contain PDF documents, or it might not.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 17:43:30 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan27174330@slave.doubleu.com> References: <36af8920.0@news.depaul.edu> <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79> In-reply-to: "Lawson English"'s message of 27 Jan 99 15:37:47 -0700 In article <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> said: >Which begs the question, "why bother"? Why not forget about the >interpreter, and use their own drawing functions to implement the >PDF imaging model, rather than the full Postscript spec? > >And lo, that's supposedly what they're doing. But one of the big selling points of NeXT was supposedly the DPS model, which allowed every app true WYSIWYG drawing, so that every app could use DTP-level drawing. EPS, for instance, was available to all. The GX model is obviously superior in many ways to the PDF model but Apple isn't using that, NOR the DPS model. The question then arises: what is good about the PDF model? Answer: Not much. It supplies less than DPS and less than GX. It is the least common denominator format, and looks to limit Apple's 2D imaging options. You're suggesting that a DPDF windowserver provides some percentage less than 100% of the features of a DPS windowserver. For sake of argument, let's say DPDF provides 70% of what DPS provides. The problem with that argument is that DPS features are used in non-uniform fashion, according to the old 80/20 rule. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that based on 10+ years of NS/OS experience, _I_ have no concerns about whether a DPDF windowserver could implement 99.9% of the current _usage_ of the DPS windowserver (things like Postscript as a programming language are very very _very_ seldom used in production apps). This would include things like a uniform imaging model (converting PDF to PS is trivially straightforward, and PS is ligua fraca for printers), all the compositing and font-handling advantages of DPS, all of the transforms and the like. It wouldn't be able to handle things like setting a PS procedure for shading and the like - things which might be very easy to address using a C-level API (instead of passing a PS proc, you'd pass a C proc). Even pswrap could become pdfwrap. pswrap mainly digested the DPS code into efficiently-passed tokens. PDF will have to pass commands somehow, no reason they couldn't write pdfwrap to do the same trick for DPDF. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 27 Jan 99 17:33:04 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan27173304@slave.doubleu.com> References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-reply-to: malcolm@plsys.co.uk's message of Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:25:27 GMT In article <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes: .... e.g. Henry McG. explained months ago why GhostScript is unlikely to be able to replicate all of DPS (patents on shading algorithms etc.) OTOH, if the alternative is nothing due to YB/NT's reliance on DPS, then I'd be willing to accept a solution that implements the bare minimum, things like PSshow() and PSmoveto(). While losing funky shading algorithms and the like would be a blow, it's something that can be addressed - I'm willing to bet that if you take all the AppKit, plus all the moderately "current" YellowBox code out there, and distinguish between "funky" Postscript and "non-funky" Postscript (eg, the basic, straight-line code using things like moveto, gsave, curveto, etc, etc), the "funky" Postscript is perhaps 2% of the total. I mean, it would be painful for certain developers, but it would be an _addressable_ pain. I could make plans based on it ["Boss, we'll need two months in the schedule to replicate DPS feature Xxxx that will be missing from the next version of YellowBox."] -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Harald Ellmann <ellmann@msi.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Stop whining Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:06:33 +0100 Organization: Stockholm University Distribution: world Message-ID: <36AF5591.DCA51DAF@msi.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello NeXT community! I just read the recent post on the death of YB and the optimism in this group seems to have vanished, to say the least. Lets face it: The NeXT dream died when they pulled the plug from black hardware. Every move since then was a lukewarm compromise. With DPS finally gone and an uncertain future of OPENSTEP/YB only the last *cool* features of the original NEXTSTEP have gone. I just wonder how long my NeXT boxes will serve me. I have got three of them... it's getting cold out there. Just my contribution to enhanced pessimism. Greetings Harald
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: YellowBox IDE Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Message-ID: <36b02ea9.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 28 Jan 99 09:32:25 GMT Is Apple doing anything to improve ProjectBuilder? Apart from the Windows-standard toylike interface, Delphi's IDE has some pretty cool features in 4.0. By the time Apple decides to start marketing YellowBox, they'll have quite a bit of development-tool competition. Delphi's class frameworks aren't quite as good in some ways (esp. TextView type objects) but I expect they're Good Enough for most people. How many years' lead did Jobs say NeXT had? How long ago was that?
Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> In-Reply-To: <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> From: marco@sente.ch.mil (Marco Scheurer) Message-ID: <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> Date: 28 Jan 1999 11:46:21 +0100 Organization: EPFL On 01/28/99, Scott Anguish wrote: >On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >>In article <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, >pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >>>In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com >(Henry) wrote: >>> >>>> Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ >>> >>>I never heard this. At MW SF they repeatidly said that YB for NT is >on track >>> >>>Peter >>> >>I am just repeating what we were told.....time will tell. >> > > Funny that you won't tell us WHO that was that said that. Well that one should be easy to figure out: quoting from the second message in this thread: | On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: | > | >This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide | >Developer relations told us a Macworld ........ | > | >"YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" I assume there is one and only one Apple's VP of World Wide Developer relations. | On 01/28/99, Henry also wrote: | >The individual is higher up than Ernie....... you can't expect me | >to name him in this public forum... Hello ?! Is this the same 'Henry'? This pretty much ruin the whole argument as far as I am concerned. Remember a few months ago when Rhapsody/MacOSX was declared dead by someone-from-Apple-who-knows in Germany? This thread looks like it, and today, MacOSX is proeminently displayed on Apple's home page. For one thing, I'd like the *name* Yellow Box to be dead. Take care, -- Marco Scheurer (remove "dot mil" from my address) Sen:te http://www.sente.ch/ OPENSTEP, MacOSX and WebObjects development, consulting and mentoring.
From: david@onestep.co.uk (David Andrew Knight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: WO4.0 -- Where to buy in Education? Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:15:57 GMT Message-ID: <917522157.3431.0.nnrp-03.c30b1c0b@news.demon.co.uk> References: <78oaui$7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: m_e_henry@my-dejanews.com In <78oaui$7b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> m_e_henry@my-dejanews.com wrote: > I am a student at a Spanish university who is trying to figure out how to buy > WebObjects 4.0 Academic, product number M7175Z/A. Does anybody have contact > information for this? I tried to figure this out from the Apple web site. > Although I got as far as the product number, I couldn't manage to get further. > > Hence the above question. Any pointers appreciated. M7175Z/A WebObjects Academic 4.2 (Dev + Deployment) UKP 61+VAT (@17.5%) +Shipping ESP Pesetas 15,147 + Tax + Shipping. and you can buy it from us. Mail me direct for payment and delivery terms. --- Regards David Knight | OneStep Solutions Plc | Solutions | | Workstations Innovative Solutions | UK phone: 01702 426400 | Servers For MacOS X, Windows NT | fax: 01702 426420 | Security OPENSTEP and Solaris | Int'l prefix: +44 1702 | Networks using Yellow Box and | | Maintenance WebObjects technologies | http://www.onestep.co.uk | Support
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:27:19 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> In article <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, > Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an > >individual get this sort of information? > > You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry > "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". > > > >It is not typical for ANY company to say "We > >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" > > It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very > cross if this is not reported accurately. > > >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of > >money in the bank because they are using it for production and > >research. > > Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash > under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft > has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around > the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one > downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved > many companies since HP started the tradition. Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses that are foreseen or expected. For example, if you're being sued, you can create a reserve to cover reasonable anticipated legal expenses and penalties. You can NOT set up a reserve just in case you have a bad year. Interestingly, MS is now in trouble for doing just that. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:25:18 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2801990825180001@wil121.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > Cherie Clark wrote: > > > > Well I know what they had and it was 1.4 BILLION in the bank, right now > > You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an > individual get this sort of information? Are you a bookkeeper for > Apple? I don't think so. It is not typical for ANY company to say "We > have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" More than anything I think Actually, it is. In fact, it's required by law. Read their 10Q statements on www.sec.gov. > that a company that HAD to state they had so much money "in the bank" > would be an indication that they were struggling. Usually, companies > are not measured by their held assets but by there capability at > producing money. In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of > money in the bank because they are using it for production and > research. For Apple to have been releaseing these kinds of statistics > to the public would be a sure indication that they did not have a > reliable "credit" in the business world and therefore would have to rely > on pure assets for any type of business transaction. > > > they ahve 2.6 BILLION in the bank anbd short term investments! Bite me! BG > > Again, where do you get your information. I don't know of ANY companies > that release their net assets publically. Maybe if you were a > stockholder you could get this information from a smaller corporation, > but I don't think large companies release this even to stockholders. You need to learn a little bit about business before posting. It's legally required. EVERY annual report talks about assets and liabilities. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:07:01 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2801990907020001@wil134.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom> In article <m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom>, Johan Kullstam <johan19@idt.net> wrote: > mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) writes: > > > Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash > > under the mattress to tide them over hard times. > > nod. this is ok. NOT. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <cclark1-2801990820210001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:17:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:17:39 PDT Organization: @Home Network So you assume we are all as stupid as you are! It is so easy to check, so check it. In article <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >"Simon WrightŪ" wrote: >> That's correct, Donald. If any company publicly traded (e.g., has a stock >> price) doesn't give accurate statements of their bank balance, would you >> invest in them? Not very darn likely. > >Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that a bank balance is a very >good indication of how well a company is doing. I was unaware of the >"Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments" that Donald so >nicely pointed out. I guess I just don't do that much stock >investments. I'm more of a mutual funds kind of person. Anyway, nobody >answered my question of where Cherie got HER source or a documentation >of the quoted number of the actual saved assets of Apple. I think that >before anyone speculates the results or reasons of Bill Gates' >investment into Apple that the ACTUAL figure for Apple's assets at that >the time of the investment should be given with documentation. Giving >such a number without any sort of reference appears to be taken off the >top of your head, and automatically draws skepticism.
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <cclark1-2801990824180001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:21:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:21:36 PDT Organization: @Home Network Yes and the 2.6 figure includes investments and moneies saved since the end f their fiscal year. In any event I will accept 2.3 because either way it IS a butt load of bucks In article <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: >In article <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu>, >>I think that >>before anyone speculates the results or reasons of Bill Gates' >>investment into Apple that the ACTUAL figure for Apple's assets at that >>the time of the investment should be given with documentation. > >The Apple annual report is linked off of their web site. (About Apple-> >Investor relations). The actual URL it links to is very long, so >I'll skip that. > >The annual report from September 1998 has this line for cash and >equivalents, in millions: > >1998 1997 1996 1995 1994 >--------- --------- --------- --------- --------- >$ 2,300 $ 1,459 $ 1,745 $ 952 $ 1,258
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: cancel <tbrown-2801990026020001@da184.ecr.net> Message-ID: <tbrown-2801990916510001@d118.ecr.net> Organization: Brownian Motion Control: cancel <tbrown-2801990026020001@da184.ecr.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:16:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:17:29 CDT cancel <tbrown-2801990026020001@da184.ecr.net>
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <cclark1-2801990813310001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:10:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:10:49 PDT Organization: @Home Network Jeez do you read any thing but newsgroups, I get an Apple annual report each year, you can if you want to check out everyone's finances including MS's on the sec site and edgar. I don't have to lie. As for BG not wanting to kill apple because of the SW sales, hey it is the lure of 100% of the PC market, no one ever said BG was smart only a crook.You are NUTS, business always have plenty of money in the bank and in short term investments, while you are checking out Apple, check out Boeing. As for them sayin g they had that money in the bank, it is part of their annual report NOT advertised over TV. Obviously you know nothing about business, owning stock, the internet or much of anything! Another one of Todd's 14 yo buddies? In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >Cherie Clark wrote: >> >> Well I know what they had and it was 1.4 BILLION in the bank, right now > >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an >individual get this sort of information? Are you a bookkeeper for >Apple? I don't think so. It is not typical for ANY company to say "We >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" More than anything I think >that a company that HAD to state they had so much money "in the bank" >would be an indication that they were struggling. Usually, companies >are not measured by their held assets but by there capability at >producing money. In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of >money in the bank because they are using it for production and >research. For Apple to have been releaseing these kinds of statistics >to the public would be a sure indication that they did not have a >reliable "credit" in the business world and therefore would have to rely >on pure assets for any type of business transaction. > >> they ahve 2.6 BILLION in the bank anbd short term investments! Bite me! BG > >Again, where do you get your information. I don't know of ANY companies >that release their net assets publically. Maybe if you were a >stockholder you could get this information from a smaller corporation, >but I don't think large companies release this even to stockholders. > >> saved Apple LOL! BG has been trying to kill Apple for years! > >Why would Bill Gates want to lose all of his software sales to the Apple >platform?
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <cclark1-2801990822210001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> <78one5$dg$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:19:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:19:39 PDT Organization: @Home Network Actually I got them from Apple's annual report I get one every year as a courtesy even tho I do not own stock in Apple. The facts are all very easy to verify and I would think before questioning it would server Brandon to come back with facts to the contrary which of course he can't find. In article <78one5$dg$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>, "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> wrote: >I'm sure Cherie got those figures from a press article which no doubt did >research on the matter. What is known for sure is that BG's "bailout" was a >drop in the ocean of Apple's cash. > >Simon Wright. > > > >Brandon Forehand wrote in message <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu>... >>"Simon WrightŪ" wrote: >>> That's correct, Donald. If any company publicly traded (e.g., has a stock >>> price) doesn't give accurate statements of their bank balance, would you >>> invest in them? Not very darn likely. >> >>Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that a bank balance is a very >>good indication of how well a company is doing. I was unaware of the >>"Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments" that Donald so >>nicely pointed out. I guess I just don't do that much stock >>investments. I'm more of a mutual funds kind of person. Anyway, nobody >>answered my question of where Cherie got HER source or a documentation >>of the quoted number of the actual saved assets of Apple. I think that >>before anyone speculates the results or reasons of Bill Gates' >>investment into Apple that the ACTUAL figure for Apple's assets at that >>the time of the investment should be given with documentation. Giving >>such a number without any sort of reference appears to be taken off the >>top of your head, and automatically draws skepticism.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:15:59 -0500 From: nospam@one.net (MojiDoji) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: ø`á.üü.áŦø`á.üü.áŦø` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `á.üü.áŦø`á.üü.áŦø` Message-ID: <nospam-2701992115590001@10.0.1.99> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom> <78of4u$1ts$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78oorg$74m$1@remarQ.com> <36AFF23B.2C1E2195@altavista.com> Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub In article <36AFF23B.2C1E2195@altavista.com>, scanman@altavista.com wrote: > Well your math proves it...Intel machines must be better or faster, or > maybe, JUST CHEEPER...Scanman That's some interesting logic. Intel is better than Apple because Microsoft has lots of money. Hmm... > > "Donald R. McGregor" wrote: > > > > >>> I think Microsoft > > >>> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around > > >>> the house. -- Don't send me any email, because I don't really care what you have to say.
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:57:18 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development (not) Message-ID: <78q1cf$964$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 1999 15:57:03 GMT As much as I'd like MS's ass sued off, doesn't that seem strange to you? Simon Joe Ragosta wrote in message ... >In article <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. >McGregor) wrote: > >> In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, >> Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >> >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an >> >individual get this sort of information? >> >> You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry >> "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". >> >> >> >It is not typical for ANY company to say "We >> >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" >> >> It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very >> cross if this is not reported accurately. >> >> >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of >> >money in the bank because they are using it for production and >> >research. >> >> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash >> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft >> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around >> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one >> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved >> many companies since HP started the tradition. > >Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, >which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide >you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses >that are foreseen or expected. > >For example, if you're being sued, you can create a reserve to cover >reasonable anticipated legal expenses and penalties. You can NOT set up a >reserve just in case you have a bad year. > >Interestingly, MS is now in trouble for doing just that. > >-- >Regards, > >Joe Ragosta >joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: 28 Jan 1999 11:20:10 -0500 Organization: Quick and Associates Message-ID: <78q2nq$p2v@papoose.quick.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> In article <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net>, Thingfishhhh <thingfishhhh@yahoo.com> wrote: >In article <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, Hosun Sacreligious Lee ><holee@primenet.com> wrote: > >> H.W. Stockman <hwstock@wizard.com> writes: >> : David T. Wang wrote: >> >> : > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says >> : > >> : > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 >> : > >> : > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope >> : > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. > >This smacks more of the marketing weasels than anything else - who else >would benfit more from the technology, besides law enforcement and the >government? > >A bona-fide way of tracking people across the web? One that is not as >obvious as cookies and such? > >The future is *information* - just like those "discount" cards that the >supermarkets here in the US have - not only do you get cheap prices, but >the chains get an unabashed look at YOUR buying habits. The next obvious >step is for health companies to access such databases when you try to >claim...have high cholesterol? Sorry, our research shows you bought bacon >and eggs on a weekly basis. Next. > >I doubt that Intel came up with this on their own - someone had a hand in >implementing this. Who was it? Government? Business? Law enforcement? > >And it *is* a tough issue - I like the idea that someone, like a hacker, >or child porn trader, can be tracked and found by their CPU's >registration. But in this modern age, such tools will also be used for >bad, and right now I don't trust any of them. After watching the >Government try to ram the V-Chips down our throats, and the fiasco that is >encryption policy, I just don;t want them to have the ability to find me >online with little or no effort, or have access to my habits, interests, >or profile. The problem is the lack of US law regarding information privacy and ownership. Call many mail order firms these days, and see how easily the existing information is made available to them. You call an 800 number from home. The telephone company passes them your phone number. The operator who answers your phone say hello Dave, how can I help you today? Your address and phone number could trigger another search of credit card records. There is no technical reason why they may not soon finish by asking, "Do you want me to put the charge on your MegaBank gold Card?" Electronic banking, computerization of Pharmacy, medical, insurance, and other sources of information all can be used against you. The information is there, but the only laws out there are lobbied most heavily for (or against) by large corporate interests. That's why we have no sensible federal regulations regarding SPAM. What's good for business may be good for American government. Rarely is it good for the citizenry. Over 200 years ago Adam Smith, in "The Wealth of Nations" cautioned public servants to be very wary of suggestions made by Capitalists. His warning is as true today as it was then, yet it is heeded less today than it ever was. Campaign finance reform, and lobbying reform are the only ways to get control back. I don't think it's fair to claim that they own the politians, but it's foolish to deny that they own the system in which the politicians are currently forced to compete. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. ) |
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:21:47 +0000 Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc. Message-ID: <36B09CAB.4E1BBC7D@cadence.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <F6863q.E7o@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz wrote: > What I don't understand is why no one has attempted a project that ends > up with *two* kernels, one with lots of locks for fine grainularity, and > another with all of these removed (barring the "threaded" code like the > file system of course). I'm sure some will be shocked at the idea because > it seems to multiple the difficulty of shipping, but frankly I don't think > that's so. The problem is basically one of development processes, and this > seems like the perfect experiment for the Linux community. NT ships with two kernels, one with spinlocks, one without, for exactly this reason. I'm not sure that spinlocks in themselves are enough of a hit to justify this. It is only one bus transaction per lock, after all. Simon
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: 28 Jan 1999 11:46:03 -0500 Organization: Quick and Associates Message-ID: <78q48b$p8m@papoose.quick.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> In article <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net>, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >In article <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. >McGregor) wrote: > >> In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, >> Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >> >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an >> >individual get this sort of information? >> >> You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry >> "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". >> >> >> >It is not typical for ANY company to say "We >> >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" >> >> It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very >> cross if this is not reported accurately. >> >> >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of >> >money in the bank because they are using it for production and >> >research. >> >> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash >> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft >> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around >> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one >> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved >> many companies since HP started the tradition. > >Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, >which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide >you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses >that are foreseen or expected. > >For example, if you're being sued, you can create a reserve to cover >reasonable anticipated legal expenses and penalties. You can NOT set up a >reserve just in case you have a bad year. > >Interestingly, MS is now in trouble for doing just that. It is not why they they are in trouble about their reserve. Reserves can be created for any contingency, including planning for a bad year. What is illegal is what is colloquially called a "cookie jar reserve policy". This is what microsoft is charged with. They regularly modified their reserve balance to artificially smooth their revenue and profit streams. Increasing their balance requirements in response to better than expected profits, and reducing the reserve in direct response to shortfalls. This results in alterations to the underlying profit and revenue numbers. It is thus tantamount to stock price manipulation. Large reserves are not the issue. Manipulating reserve requirements to alter the fundmantals of a balance sheet is the issue. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. ) |
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:40:33 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development (not) Message-ID: <78q7e2$k77$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78q48b$p8m@papoose.quick.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 1999 17:40:18 GMT Ahh, I get you now. =) Ficken Microsoft! Simon Wright. James E. Quick wrote in message <78q48b$p8m@papoose.quick.com>... >In article <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net>, >Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >>In article <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. >>McGregor) wrote: >> >>> In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, >>> Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >>> >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an >>> >individual get this sort of information? >>> >>> You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry >>> "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". >>> >>> >>> >It is not typical for ANY company to say "We >>> >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" >>> >>> It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very >>> cross if this is not reported accurately. >>> >>> >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of >>> >money in the bank because they are using it for production and >>> >research. >>> >>> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash >>> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft >>> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around >>> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one >>> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved >>> many companies since HP started the tradition. >> >>Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, >>which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide >>you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses >>that are foreseen or expected. >> >>For example, if you're being sued, you can create a reserve to cover >>reasonable anticipated legal expenses and penalties. You can NOT set up a >>reserve just in case you have a bad year. >> >>Interestingly, MS is now in trouble for doing just that. > >It is not why they they are in trouble about their reserve. Reserves >can be created for any contingency, including planning for a bad >year. What is illegal is what is colloquially called a "cookie >jar reserve policy". This is what microsoft is charged with. > >They regularly modified their reserve balance to artificially >smooth their revenue and profit streams. Increasing their balance >requirements in response to better than expected profits, and >reducing the reserve in direct response to shortfalls. This results >in alterations to the underlying profit and revenue numbers. It is >thus tantamount to stock price manipulation. > >Large reserves are not the issue. Manipulating reserve requirements >to alter the fundmantals of a balance sheet is the issue. >-- > ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com > / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. >\_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. > ) |
Message-ID: <36B08FD2.F44A4586@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan27173304@slave.doubleu.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:44:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:44:05 PDT Scott Hess wrote: > In article <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes: > .... e.g. Henry McG. explained months ago why GhostScript is > unlikely to be able to replicate all of DPS (patents on shading > algorithms etc.) > > OTOH, if the alternative is nothing due to YB/NT's reliance on DPS, > then I'd be willing to accept a solution that implements the bare > minimum, things like PSshow() and PSmoveto(). > [snip supporting arg.] > I mean, it would be painful for certain developers, but it would be an > _addressable_ pain. I could make plans based on it ["Boss, we'll need > two months in the schedule to replicate DPS feature Xxxx that will be > missing from the next version of YellowBox."] > -- For this you expect companies to pay $1000's for lic and deployment fees to Apple with holes big enough to swallow months of manpower? -r
From: lurking@bogus.addy.ca (lurk) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Adobe, Apple and DPS Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:10:57 GMT Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com Message-ID: <36b0a66d.7571917@news.alt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's been floated around that Adobe doesn't a) want to licence DPS to Apple or b) wants to dump DPS support. Period. If b) were true, wouldn't this piss off a lot of Sun folks. Each time I boot up Solaris I see the Adobe DPS logo on my box. If indeed Solaris uses DPS don't you think Sun would leverage some power in keeping it around?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6A84v.4rH@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: simonk@cadence.com Organization: needs one References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <F6863q.E7o@T-FCN.Net> <36B09CAB.4E1BBC7D@cadence.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:17:18 GMT In <36B09CAB.4E1BBC7D@cadence.com> Simon Kinahan wrote: > NT ships with two kernels, one with spinlocks, one without, for exactly > this reason. Wow, I didn't know that. Maury
Message-ID: <36B0AC63.1EF8602D@ne.mediaone.net> From: Monty Brandenberg <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net> Organization: MCB, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Adobe, Apple and DPS References: <36b0a66d.7571917@news.alt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:28:51 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:28:23 EDT lurk wrote: > > If b) were true, wouldn't this piss off a lot of Sun folks. It did. And Dec, and IBM, and SGI, and... -- Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant MCB, Inc. mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net P.O. Box 426188 mcbinc@world.std.com Cambridge, MA 02142 617.864.6907
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:09:01 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2801991309010001@wil135.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78q1cf$964$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> In article <78q1cf$964$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>, "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> wrote: > As much as I'd like MS's ass sued off, doesn't that seem strange to you? Not at all. It's just another example of MS thinking the rules don't apply to them. Every public company has to abide by the rules--why shouldn't they? > > Joe Ragosta wrote in message ... > >In article <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. > >McGregor) wrote: > > > >> In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, > >> Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > >> >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an > >> >individual get this sort of information? > >> > >> You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry > >> "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". > >> > >> > >> >It is not typical for ANY company to say "We > >> >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" > >> > >> It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very > >> cross if this is not reported accurately. > >> > >> >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of > >> >money in the bank because they are using it for production and > >> >research. > >> > >> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash > >> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft > >> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around > >> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one > >> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved > >> many companies since HP started the tradition. > > > >Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, > >which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide > >you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses > >that are foreseen or expected. > > > >For example, if you're being sued, you can create a reserve to cover > >reasonable anticipated legal expenses and penalties. You can NOT set up a > >reserve just in case you have a bad year. > > > >Interestingly, MS is now in trouble for doing just that. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:47:26 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Message-ID: <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> <cclark1-2801990824180001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cherie Clark wrote: > > Yes and the 2.6 figure includes investments and moneies saved since the > end f their fiscal year. In any event I will accept 2.3 because either way > it IS a butt load of bucks When was the Bill Gates bail out? I know it wasn't in 1998. It has been at least two years, possibly 3. That would put Apple at 952 million dollars. That means that the 150 million dollars that Bill Gates invested in them would be over 10% of their saved monies. That is not a drop in the bucket. Even if it was in 96 that number is at the END of the fiscal year as I understand it, so that would INCLUDE Microsofts investment. So maybe that is why there was such a big jump from 95 to 96. Of course, that is just a speculation. Even without speculating the 1996 figure is 1,745 million which would make the $150 million investment still just SLIGHTLY under 10% of Apple's monies. I would hardly call 10% a "drop in the bucket."
From: gwangung@u.washington.edu (R. Tang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: 28 Jan 1999 19:15:58 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Message-ID: <78qd1e$vie$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> <cclark1-2801990824180001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-User: gwangung In article <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >Cherie Clark wrote: >> >> Yes and the 2.6 figure includes investments and moneies saved since the >> end f their fiscal year. In any event I will accept 2.3 because either way >> it IS a butt load of bucks > >When was the Bill Gates bail out? I know it wasn't in 1998. If I were you, I wouldn't post so much as to expose my ignorance. It has >been at least two years, possibly 3. That would put Apple at 952 >million dollars. That means that the 150 million dollars that Bill >Gates invested in them would be over 10% of their saved monies. That is >not a drop in the bucket. Even if it was in 96 that number is at the >END of the fiscal year as I understand it, so that would INCLUDE >Microsofts investment. So maybe that is why there was such a big jump >from 95 to 96. Of course, that is just a speculation. Even without >speculating the 1996 figure is 1,745 million which would make the $150 >million investment still just SLIGHTLY under 10% of Apple's monies. I >would hardly call 10% a "drop in the bucket." I would, given that it was issuance of preferred, non-voting stock. -- -Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre - Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL] - http://www.abcflash.com/a&e/r_tang/AATR.html -Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:07:46 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2801991307460001@wil135.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78q48b$p8m@papoose.quick.com> In article <78q48b$p8m@papoose.quick.com>, jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) wrote: > In article <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net>, > Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > >In article <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. > >McGregor) wrote: > > > >> In article <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu>, > >> Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > >> >You know this for a fact? Where is your source? How would an > >> >individual get this sort of information? > >> > >> You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry > >> "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". > >> > >> > >> >It is not typical for ANY company to say "We > >> >have X amount of dollars 'in the bank.'" > >> > >> It is for publically traded companies. The SEC becomes very > >> cross if this is not reported accurately. > >> > >> >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of > >> >money in the bank because they are using it for production and > >> >research. > >> > >> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash > >> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft > >> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around > >> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one > >> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved > >> many companies since HP started the tradition. > > > >Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, > >which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide > >you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses > >that are foreseen or expected. > > > >For example, if you're being sued, you can create a reserve to cover > >reasonable anticipated legal expenses and penalties. You can NOT set up a > >reserve just in case you have a bad year. > > > >Interestingly, MS is now in trouble for doing just that. > > It is not why they they are in trouble about their reserve. Reserves > can be created for any contingency, including planning for a bad > year. What is illegal is what is colloquially called a "cookie > jar reserve policy". This is what microsoft is charged with. > > They regularly modified their reserve balance to artificially > smooth their revenue and profit streams. Increasing their balance > requirements in response to better than expected profits, and > reducing the reserve in direct response to shortfalls. This results > in alterations to the underlying profit and revenue numbers. It is > thus tantamount to stock price manipulation. > > Large reserves are not the issue. Manipulating reserve requirements > to alter the fundmantals of a balance sheet is the issue. I think that's what I said--although not in as much detail as you did. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:44:47 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-2801991444480001@wil95.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> <cclark1-2801990824180001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu> In article <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > Cherie Clark wrote: > > > > Yes and the 2.6 figure includes investments and moneies saved since the > > end f their fiscal year. In any event I will accept 2.3 because either way > > it IS a butt load of bucks > > When was the Bill Gates bail out? I know it wasn't in 1998. It has > been at least two years, possibly 3. That would put Apple at 952 > million dollars. That means that the 150 million dollars that Bill > Gates invested in them would be over 10% of their saved monies. That is Mid-1997. At that time, Apple had over $1 billion in cash and short term assets. > not a drop in the bucket. Even if it was in 96 that number is at the > END of the fiscal year as I understand it, so that would INCLUDE > Microsofts investment. So maybe that is why there was such a big jump > from 95 to 96. Of course, that is just a speculation. Even without > speculating the 1996 figure is 1,745 million which would make the $150 > million investment still just SLIGHTLY under 10% of Apple's monies. I > would hardly call 10% a "drop in the bucket." No. But it's also not "bailing the company out". If Apple had dropped to a couple hundred million dollars, you might have been able to make that statement. When they had over a billion dollars, talk of "bailing them out" is nonsense. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6ACnu.7Fr@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: english@primenet.com Organization: none References: <B2D502B2-101C57@206.165.43.79> <B2D50CC1-127954@206.165.43.79> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:55:06 GMT In <B2D50CC1-127954@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" wrote: > The "trivial" is in reference to having scrolling, non-opaque text on top > of a bitmap background, not in reference to saving the image in PDF format. Indeed, it is trival to do under YB, it's about 50 lines (maybe less). The boss whipped up a OS4.2 version of this for fun in an hour or so a few weeks back after seeing MacTicker. Maury
From: cclark1@home.com (Cherie Clark) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <cclark1-2801991420150001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> <cclark1-2801990824180001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:17:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:17:33 PDT Organization: @Home Network Saved money doesn't matter it is the total value of the compnay andf the fact they were not as pubished in the media, on the ropes. You have it whatever way you want but we already know you are an IDIOT! In article <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >Cherie Clark wrote: >> >> Yes and the 2.6 figure includes investments and moneies saved since the >> end f their fiscal year. In any event I will accept 2.3 because either way >> it IS a butt load of bucks > >When was the Bill Gates bail out? I know it wasn't in 1998. It has >been at least two years, possibly 3. That would put Apple at 952 >million dollars. That means that the 150 million dollars that Bill >Gates invested in them would be over 10% of their saved monies. That is >not a drop in the bucket. Even if it was in 96 that number is at the >END of the fiscal year as I understand it, so that would INCLUDE >Microsofts investment. So maybe that is why there was such a big jump >from 95 to 96. Of course, that is just a speculation. Even without >speculating the 1996 figure is 1,745 million which would make the $150 >million investment still just SLIGHTLY under 10% of Apple's monies. I >would hardly call 10% a "drop in the bucket."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6ACJL.7Bn@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: english@primenet.com Organization: none References: <36af8920.0@news.depaul.edu> <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:52:32 GMT In <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" wrote: > >Which begs the question, "why bother"? Why not forget about the > >interpreter, and use their own drawing functions to implement > >the PDF imaging model, rather than the full Postscript spec? > > > >And lo, that's supposedly what they're doing. > > But one of the big selling points of NeXT was supposedly the DPS model, > which allowed every app true WYSIWYG drawing, so that every app could use > DTP-level drawing. EPS, for instance, was available to all. Scott said "keep the model, ditch the interpreter". I said "keep the model, ditch the interpreter". Everyone has said "keep the model, ditch the interpreter". Apple is keeping the model and ditching the interpreter. What part of "model" vs. "interpreter" is confusing you so much? Would you like me to repeat it a few more times? > The GX model is obviously superior in many ways to the PDF model but Apple > isn't using that, NOR the DPS model. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Two years later and you still don't have even a foggy clue what you're talking about. > The question then arises: > > what is good about the PDF model? > > Answer: It's the DPS model. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Stop whining Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6AD3E.7p4@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ellmann@msi.se Organization: none References: <36AF5591.DCA51DAF@msi.se> <F68Iy2.Lty@T-FCN.Net> <36B02103.3032F2C4@msi.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:04:26 GMT In <36B02103.3032F2C4@msi.se> Harald Ellmann wrote: > Maybe you are right here, Maury. I am a physicist I'm a failed physicist, theomech killed me in 3rd year and I ended up in the hospital after the exam and thought to myself "why the heck am I doing this, I'm not going to get a job in it anyway!". Now I'm a programmer. Good move for everyone involved I think ;-) > about the technical details. ItÂs just that something that made the original > NeXT OS so well integrated and seamlessly working is gone. Don't be so sure! The issue is that the DPS _engine_ is going away, but the _model_ is remaining. That, to me, implies that it will be largely the same. The problems arose when the models were radically and fundamentally different - like QD or GDI vs. PS. Any conversion there was doomed to be hard. But what they're doing here is replacing the part that takes the DPS (or in this case PDF) instructions and turns them into pixels. This is not nearly as major as it would appear at first glance. > instance, of NXhosting, which, as far as I have understood won't be possible > with eQD, at least not with some additional effort. Yes, but "additional effort" is very little. Consider that many companies sell products that do this already on graphics engines that were never designed to do it in the first place, like the Mac. The new engine is client side and has no built-in streaming system (like the language in DPS). This doesn't mean that it's impossible. It doesn't even mean it's hard. > And true WYSIWYG will be gone, too, right? No. > But my original point was that the whole package (NeXTSTEP and NEXTComputer) > was subsequently diluted and it seems that this process is continuing (if > HenryÂs claims are correct). Yes, I'll buy that. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Steve and Avi have dropped out of School! Message-ID: <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:45:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:45:26 PDT ....yes....they have quit to go work for the local amusement park..... ...the quest for greatness was just too much...best left for others with a "clear" vision!
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:47:29 GMT Organization: ICX Online, Inc. Message-ID: <36b076fe.1619947@news.icx.net> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <36af3ac1.8628661@news.icx.net> <fxQr2.25957$bf6.6528@news1.giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 1999 14:49:41 GMT cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote: >On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:32:30 GMT, Michael McCulloch ><mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote: > >>Perhaps some informed person can summarize why Display Ghostscript is >>so necessary. The only obvious benefit to me is unified imaging and >>printing model. Although, Type 1 font support also comes to mind. > >It is necessary to the degree that conformance with OpenStep is desired, >as OpenStep assumes availability of DPS rendering. Ok, but OpenStep is a dead standard. No OS product is currently supported that complies. Why hitch your wagon to an unused, unsupported standard? Michael McCulloch
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 28 Jan 1999 11:00:07 -0500 Organization: Quick and Associates Message-ID: <78q1i7$ota@papoose.quick.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <36af3ac1.8628661@news.icx.net> <fxQr2.25957$bf6.6528@news1.giganews.com> <36b076fe.1619947@news.icx.net> In article <36b076fe.1619947@news.icx.net>, Michael McCulloch <mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote: >cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote: > >Ok, but OpenStep is a dead standard. No OS product is currently >supported that complies. Why hitch your wagon to an unused, >unsupported standard? Openstep was the most beautiful, elegant, and clean OS+UI that has ever been shipped commercially. We can all hope that the OS X plan eventually produces something that useful, but it's not here yet, so I cannot comment. OS 4.2 was a little used platform with few drivers, but it was a wonderful environment. I would far rather ride on the back of a gelding thoroughbred, the last of his line, than hitch my wagon to ill kempt, limping, diarrhea prone nag that MS OS+APIs provide. Stare *that* in the ass all day? Thanks, but no. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. ) |
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:01:31 -0500 From: <gbh@middlemarch.net> Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= In-Reply-To: <joe.ragosta-2801991307460001@wil135.dol.net> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901281654470.4043-100000@mail.his.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78q48b$p8m@papoose.quick.com> <joe.ragosta-2801991307460001@wil135.dol.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Heller Information Services > > >> You'd look in their annual report for a table with the entry > > >> "Cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments". > > >> >In fact, MOST companies do not have a large amount of > > >> >money in the bank because they are using it for production and > > >> >research. > > >> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash > > >> under the mattress to tide them over hard times... It's typical for manufacturing companies to hold about 3 to 4 months of operating expenses in Cash and Equivalents. It's there to cover fluctuations in business but is not really 'under the mattress'. Greg
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Steve and Avi have dropped out of School! Date: 28 Jan 1999 22:07:07 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-280119991607550263@57.minneapolis-05-10rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Posted-And-Mailed: yes User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] In article <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > ....yes....they have quit to go work for the local amusement park..... > What does this mean? Did he finally take the 'i' out of "iCEO"? Where did you read this? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 28 Jan 1999 22:10:16 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: maury@remove_this.istar.ca In <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> Maury Markowitz wrote: > In <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> Henry wrote: > > Exactly my point.....with Apple's non interest in Yellow Box Mac OS X is > > nothing more than FreeBSD with a Mac UI. > > Hmm, there's three points in there that I see, and I'm not convinced that > any of them are correct. > > a) non-interest in YB. Well this is an entirely different statement than > your last ones on the topic, but that's OK. The question remains on > whether or no YB *as we know it* will ever be a major part of the OS. I'm > around 50/50 now, and it drops by the day (as the longer it waits, the less > differentiated it is). Really. Not sure? Apple was so sure they did Carbon. Java is a move to have that buzzword compliance. I still have a sneaking suspicion there is more here than meets the eye - Java wise. We will see. 50/50 - that's pretty serious Maury! I agree every day that passes is another shovel full of dirt on Apple's coffin. > b) FreeBSD-like. Not at all. Just because the utilities and some code is > from that project doesn't mean that the core OS looks or works like it. > And it doesn't. Core? Wait there is a huge core of BSD functionality - lifted directly from BSD. Just because the kernel is Mach based - doesn't mean the BSD functionality isn't still there. In some sense it's true that MachBSD (..step) is significantly different than FreeBSD though and maybe that is the point. > c) the end is "just" MacOS on Unix. Sorry, the sum is greater than the > whole IMHO. Heck not even MacOS on Unix really. Say Carbon on Unix, Say Emulation in BlueBox on Unix - that's as far as it goes IMHO.. When it comes to MacOS there is no sum - it just gets continually carried along.. What's the buzzword - Legacy, Legacy, Legacy.. I can't say it enough.. :) Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: 28 Jan 1999 22:19:05 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rr6013@yahoo.com In <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> Rex Riley wrote: > John Jensen wrote: > > > "Two major computer makers, Hewlett-Packard and Silicon Graphics, are to > > support the free software product Linux operating system got a boost from, > > according to reports. > > > > [...] > > > > In addition, HP and SGI said they will make Linux one of their core > > operating system offerings" > > > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,31511,00.html > > > > ---- > > > > Such stuff does make Apple's focus on the consumer-computer space seem > > like the safe choice. > > > > The *step technology does have what it takes for the enterprise space, but > > the window of market opportunity is probably gone. IMHO, 1997 was the > > year for Apple to make it happen. For a variety of licensing, marketing > > and cultural reasons they have delayed too long. > > > > John > > It's a cultural thing... HP, SGI .et .al are in the business of mfg machines > people want. No it IS NOT a cultural thing. I know because many of my clients have been declining buying SGI's because LInux on PC's was cheaper and served their needs as well price performance wise. SGI IS listening to their customers (I know I got interviewed twice asking my opinion on this matter). cultural.. Bull... I'll tell you if SGI get's linux with fully blown OpenGL hardware accelleration going on their VW's they will have some very nice choices to offer customers. > Apple is in the business of mfg desires for machines that people don't know > they want. Apple and business - Seems like oil and water to me. > Linux steals Apple's core competency "desire". Linux is here and is moving up solidly in the world. It was only a matter of time before a couple of companies put LInux on their product sheets. As I see it SGI and HP will help accellerate the momentum of it. I can also think of some other projects that might help dramatically. Linux is on track to be the number 1 OS by 2020-2025 as I predicted. I can't wait until Linux - Adobe Killer applications arise - if only to stomp out one company that needs serious payback (namely Adobe) for killing DPS. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 28 Jan 1999 22:44:51 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-280119991645394130@59.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > Really. Not sure? Apple was so sure they did Carbon. Java is a move to > have that buzzword compliance. I still have a sneaking suspicion there > is more here than meets the eye - Java wise. We will see. > Java is necessary so they don't take further heat for being totally proprietary. It's also a sop to us small-time-developers who won't be able to afford their overpriced tools. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 28 Jan 1999 22:36:09 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <78qoop$acc$1@news.digifix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> In-Reply-To: <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> On 01/28/99, Marco Scheurer wrote: >On 01/28/99, Scott Anguish wrote: >>On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >>>In article <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, >>pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >>>>In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com >>(Henry) wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ >>>> >>>>I never heard this. At MW SF they repeatidly said that YB for NT is >>on track >>>> >>>>Peter >>>> >>>I am just repeating what we were told.....time will tell. >>> >> >> Funny that you won't tell us WHO that was that said that. > >Well that one should be easy to figure out: quoting from the second >message in this thread: > Yes.. I can figure out WHO he means... but since he seems determined not to state the name, I find it unlikely that he has the title correct. >| On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >| > >| >This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide >| >Developer relations told us a Macworld ........ >| > >| >"YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" > >I assume there is one and only one Apple's VP of World Wide >Developer relations. > >| On 01/28/99, Henry also wrote: >| >The individual is higher up than Ernie....... you can't expect me >| >to name him in this public forum... > >Hello ?! Is this the same 'Henry'? This pretty much ruin the whole >argument as far as I am concerned. > >Remember a few months ago when Rhapsody/MacOSX was declared dead by >someone-from-Apple-who-knows in Germany? This thread looks like it, and >today, MacOSX is proeminently displayed on Apple's home page. > >For one thing, I'd like the *name* Yellow Box to be dead. > I don't care what they call it, as along as they call it for dinner. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 28 Jan 1999 23:30:00 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-280119991730488189@144.minneapolis-11-12rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <hugh-280119991645394130@59.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <hugh-280119991645394130@59.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>, Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: > In article <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > > > > Really. Not sure? Apple was so sure they did Carbon. Java is a move to > > have that buzzword compliance. I still have a sneaking suspicion there > > is more here than meets the eye - Java wise. We will see. > > > > Java is necessary so they don't take further heat for being totally > proprietary. It's also a sop to us small-time-developers who won't be > able to afford their overpriced tools. > Oh, and I forgot to mention: it's what passes for their cross-platform strategy these days. So now the sicko suits can say, "We kept our promise and made it portable to Intel!" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: Steve and Avi have dropped out of School! References: <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net> <hugh-280119991607550263@57.minneapolis-05-10rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Message-ID: <Y47s2.65$W32.437428@news.bctel.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:15:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:15:52 PDT In article <hugh-280119991607550263@57.minneapolis-05-10rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>, Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: >[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see > the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] > >In article <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) >wrote: > >> ....yes....they have quit to go work for the local amusement park..... >> > >What does this mean? Did he finally take the 'i' out of "iCEO"? Where >did you read this? > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools > Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for > 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People > > <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Apple is the amusement park .....NeXT was the quest for greatness........ it was downhill after 3.3.....
From: Chris Welch <moc.epacsigiD@24citoah.C> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:46:46 -0600 Organization: Mighty Albino Flying Warrors of Death Message-ID: <36B104F6.3C6FA54F@24citoah.C> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <hugh-280119991645394130@59.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hugh Johnson wrote: > > In article <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > > > > Really. Not sure? Apple was so sure they did Carbon. Java is a move to > > have that buzzword compliance. I still have a sneaking suspicion there > > is more here than meets the eye - Java wise. We will see. > > > > Java is necessary so they don't take further heat for being totally > proprietary. It's also a sop to us small-time-developers who won't be > able to afford their overpriced tools. Java is also a waste to students who have to take it. By the time I graduate, Java will be dead and the new buzzword language will be around. Sad. -- /----------------------------------------------------------\ | http://www.olemiss.edu/~cmwelch1 | | | | Brain: It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob. | | Pinky: You have no idea. | \----------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6ACAD.75F@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: english@primenet.com Organization: none References: <F68uFo.66F@T-FCN.Net> <B2D50859-117034@206.165.43.79> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:47:00 GMT In <B2D50859-117034@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" wrote: > So, you're saying that neither you nor the rest of the NeXT advocates ever > touted DPS's features as being superior and essential, and that your > statement ' "more" is not terribly useful' didn't repudiate the original > claims of "more?" I won't speak for other people. Nor is the question above correct, it is instead deliberately misleading, again. Or you simply don't know what "more" meant in the original context. Let me explain... a) it is clear that Adobe wants no more DPS use b) thus Apple has to get a new engine, possibilities include... - using GhostScript, which "is" DPS - using something else that looks like DPS c) the major difference between GS and eQD are that GS has an interpreter d) the language is useful only if everyone is using PS, which (a) notes is going away e) since we are not using DPS due to (a), then the advantage of using GS over eQD is minimal f) since the advantage in light of (d) is minimal, and the risks and drawbacks are not, eQD seems like a good solution It's clear you wish to expand the VERY narrow focus of the above into something it isn't. When I wrote the original message "more" referred to tthe difference in (c) above. In your messages "more" means everything about DPS. And in that light, no, I have never seen anyone claim that the interpreter made DPS "superior and essential", and I've certainly never advocated that postion. In fact the only thing I have seen people upset about is the change from a server-side system to a client-side system, which also has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you wish to make up arguments to pick on people, do us a favour and do it without actually posting your strawmen. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <hugh-280119991645394130@59.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <36B104F6.3C6FA54F@24citoah.C> Message-ID: <Z%7s2.72$W32.464210@news.bctel.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:18:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:18:49 PDT In article <36B104F6.3C6FA54F@24citoah.C>, Chris Welch <moc.epacsigiD@24citoah.C> wrote: >Hugh Johnson wrote: >> >> In article <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, >> spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: >> >> > >> > Really. Not sure? Apple was so sure they did Carbon. Java is a move to >> > have that buzzword compliance. I still have a sneaking suspicion there >> > is more here than meets the eye - Java wise. We will see. >> > >> >> Java is necessary so they don't take further heat for being totally >> proprietary. It's also a sop to us small-time-developers who won't be >> able to afford their overpriced tools. > >Java is also a waste to students who have to take it. By the time I >graduate, Java will be dead and the new buzzword language will be >around. Sad. free EOF would have been much better than Java .....oh well.....
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qoop$acc$1@news.digifix.com> Message-ID: <a98s2.73$W32.464210@news.bctel.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:28:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:28:38 PDT In article <78qoop$acc$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: >On 01/28/99, Marco Scheurer wrote: >>On 01/28/99, Scott Anguish wrote: >>>On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >>>>In article <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, >>>pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: >>>>>In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com >>>(Henry) wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ >>>>> >>>>>I never heard this. At MW SF they repeatidly said that YB for NT >is >>>on track >>>>> >>>>>Peter >>>>> >>>>I am just repeating what we were told.....time will tell. >>>> >>> >>> Funny that you won't tell us WHO that was that said that. >> >>Well that one should be easy to figure out: quoting from the second >>message in this thread: >> > Yes.. I can figure out WHO he means... but since he seems >determined not to state the name, I find it unlikely that he has the >title correct. You know exactly who I mean .......and yes....the title is correct. Here.....here is something to think about: http://gnustep.current.nu/screenshots/gstep-desktop-981021.jpg This on FreeBSD with the rest of the project would make me very happy indeed.....or even a port to Mac OS X for that matter.....that is if it would run on something other than childs' colored "toys".
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <36af3ac1.8628661@news.icx.net> <fxQr2.25957$bf6.6528@news1.giganews.com> <36b076fe.1619947@news.icx.net> Message-ID: <Uc8s2.675$e65.344@news1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:32:36 CDT Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:32:36 GMT On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:47:29 GMT, Michael McCulloch <mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote: >cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) wrote: >>On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:32:30 GMT, Michael McCulloch >><mmccullo@nospam.net> wrote: >> >>>Perhaps some informed person can summarize why Display Ghostscript is >>>so necessary. The only obvious benefit to me is unified imaging and >>>printing model. Although, Type 1 font support also comes to mind. >> >>It is necessary to the degree that conformance with OpenStep is desired, >>as OpenStep assumes availability of DPS rendering. > >Ok, but OpenStep is a dead standard. No OS product is currently >supported that complies. Why hitch your wagon to an unused, >unsupported standard? - If it is a reasonably well-documented standard, which we may pick up and use, this is not a bad thing. - The API is well regarded. Those that have developed on OpenStep seem to regard it *extremely* highly. - By using a standard that is known to work, we know that it is merely an "engineering" task to replicate the code behind it. There are no questions of implementation being either infeasible, or of it leading us into a design that we'll find has massive holes that will dictate a redesign. - There are applications that already exist and run on OpenStep/NeXTStep. By keeping as close as possible to that, this makes it possible to fairly easily port some existing code to the system, rather than having to code *ALL* applications completely from scratch. - If GNUstep development behaves in ways that are supportive of the existing *Step community, this encourages the *Step community to be supportive in return. Your question begs another question: Why should anyone hitch their wagon to some new non-standard that isn't yet supported or supportable by *anyone*? - Designing a new scheme from scratch requires jumping into uncharted waters where there will be *no* support. - There are existing schemes that are supported to differing degrees; it is pretty evident that trying to figure out Apple's "supported GUI du jour" is a tough task. I could bring up notable alternatives such as Swing, Troll Tech's Qt, GTK, Win32, and Be, each of which would elicit different sets of criticisms. They're all "supported;" they have different strengths and weaknesses from OpenStep. -- Just be thankful Microsoft isn't a manufacturer of pharmaceuticals. cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/xgnustep.html>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Message-ID: <cdoutyF6Atr2.Ir5@netcom.com> Sender: cdouty@netcom6.netcom.com Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc. References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:04:13 GMT In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, Henry <henryb@aol.com> wrote: >In article <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, >ziziz@worldnet.att.net (who is zizi) wrote: >>In article <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com says... >> >>>NT has 60,000 commercial apps available, Mac OS X will just have a few >>because >>>of limited devloper interest. Apple's marketing people don't have a clue >>>about what makes Mac OS X work. At Macworld these people told me they were >>>killing Objective-C and Yellow Box was dead. .... >> >>if "Yellow Box was dead", how could Web-Objects servive ? >> >>actually, it seems to me that Web-Objects is the killer.app of YB. >> >>and i have heard that the job market for web-objects is booming. >> > >This is what we were told from top Apple executives at Macworld.... > >They don't want to hear "Objective-C" ....only "Java" > >Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ Completely idiotic. It's done; they have been shipping it with WO4.0 for over a month. F*ck them. >As for Mac OS X they emphasized "Blue Box" and repeated "Yellow Box is dead" >when we persisted in questioning. We were then told we (OPENSTEP) people had >no business in being there (Macworld) in the first place and that Apple was >concentrating on what is best for "Mac OS". And you did not rip his throat out for an affront?! Where is your honor? What sort of platform loyalty is that!? >I travelled all that way to hear this crap!!!! > >Do they even know how large the real Enterprise market is? No, they do not. >These people are idiots! > >As for WebObjects who knows what strange form they will twist it in? It is >quite clear Apple plans on using Mac OS X as a file server for Mac O S 8.5, >and not for building high end applications on as was the case with OPENSTEP. > On a more serious side (with a little less Klingon bloodfued), I had a chance to play with the MOSXS machine set up for NetBoot demos during MuckWorld. I din't look for WO on it, but I did peak at the NetBoot stuff. Some of it is clever, but it's all based on BOOTP/TFTP stuff which Unix stations have been doing for a decade or more. The truly clever stuff is actually on the MacOS 8.5 side where they have modified the Mac ROMs/OpenFirmware to deal with netbooting. I also noted that the MOSXS box only had drivers for current and recently shipped *Apple* equipment. ATI video cards, Adaptec SCSI cards, Packet Engines Gigabit Ethernet were all present. Anything else was not there. I'm guessing that MOSXS will only support a very narrow range of hardware, so ATTO, Initio, and Hammer SCSI cards are probably a no go. Another thing I noted was that MOSXS had really crappy video performance. Just judging by window drags and BackSpace, I'd say that performance hasn't improved since RDR2 and may have gotten worse. My 33MHz TurboColor station seems as snappy for window drags as the 400MHz G3 I tried. I desparately hope that I was mistaken here. The monkeyman running the demo had NO techincal information about anything. He didn't even know how the NetBoot stuff worked. Pretty pathetic. Disclaimer: I could be totally wrong and this report is based on snooping into a demo machine on a tradeshow floor. -Chris "lost my passion" Douty -- Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software cdouty@netcom.com "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: 29 Jan 1999 02:27:16 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-280119992028054707@39.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk>, ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric) wrote: > > those of the last 25 years. Within the next 25 years, computing will > almost certainly move to hybrid computer/transputer models based on > quantum technology, and quite conceivably may even be moving fast > towards organic technology. Any current OS will be more obsolete than > What the heck is a "transputer"? I think that's a Briticism, I never heard it from an Yank. Is that, like, a DSP chip? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <cdoutyF6Atr2.Ir5@netcom.com> Message-ID: <t19s2.76$W32.503472@news.bctel.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 05:28:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:28:41 PDT In article <cdoutyF6Atr2.Ir5@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote: >Another thing I noted was that MOSXS had really crappy video >performance. Just judging by window drags and BackSpace, I'd say that >performance hasn't improved since RDR2 and may have gotten worse. My >33MHz TurboColor station seems as snappy for window drags as the 400MHz >G3 I tried. I desparately hope that I was mistaken here. Perhaps Apple should donate some programming time to the DGS project to get it completed....we would then be much better off....and Adobe would be out of the equation.
From: Frederic Foucault <ff48@NoSPAM.columbia.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:37:10 -0500 Organization: Columbia University Message-ID: <36B11ED0.9BA6C372@NoSPAM.columbia.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 02:37:16 GMT Marco Scheurer wrote: > Hello ?! Is this the same 'Henry'? This pretty much ruin the whole > argument as far as I am concerned. > > Remember a few months ago when Rhapsody/MacOSX was declared dead by > someone-from-Apple-who-knows in Germany? This thread looks like it, and > today, MacOSX is proeminently displayed on Apple's home page. > > For one thing, I'd like the *name* Yellow Box to be dead. > > Take care, > > -- > Marco Scheurer (remove "dot mil" from my address) > Sen:te > > http://www.sente.ch/ > OPENSTEP, MacOSX and WebObjects development, consulting and mentoring. Yeap, MacOSX is pretty much alive. 'Henri'?? is wrong again. Sincerely- ff
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Message-ID: <cdoutyF6AvDn.L67@netcom.com> Sender: cdouty@netcom6.netcom.com Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc. References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <hugh-280119992028054707@39.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:39:23 GMT In article <hugh-280119992028054707@39.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net>, Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: >In article <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk>, >ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric) wrote: > >> >> those of the last 25 years. Within the next 25 years, computing will >> almost certainly move to hybrid computer/transputer models based on >> quantum technology, and quite conceivably may even be moving fast >> towards organic technology. Any current OS will be more obsolete than >> > >What the heck is a "transputer"? I think that's a Briticism, I never >heard it from an Yank. Is that, like, a DSP chip? Are you serious, or are you just dorking around? The "transputer" was a computer architecture based on the notion of a lot of inexpensive processor modules working in parallel. (At least) One company, perhaps Inmos, had a line of "transputer" CPUs. Part of the promise was infinite (or very great) scalability, since you could just keep adding processor modules. AFAIK, "transputer" is not a Briticism. I believe that word "transputer" was derived from the notion that these things would be as cheep as transistors. I appologize for not explaining the transputer architecture very well. Is anyone out there more familiar? I know that Microway sold a line of transputer based acelerators for numerical processing. I believe that that was the only half-way sucessful niche for the transputer, since self-parallelizing code and high interconnect speed have yet to appear. -Chris -- Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software cdouty@netcom.com "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: 29 Jan 1999 05:13:52 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <78rg2g$qg1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> Ric <ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk> wrote: : On 28 Jan 1999 22:19:05 GMT, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com : wrote: : >Linux is on track to be the number 1 OS by 2020-2025 as I predicted. : ROFL! : It is *most unlikely* that *any* current OS will still be around in : any shape or form in 20 yrs' time! The kind of changes ahead in : computing/computing hardware are of an even more radical nature than : those of the last 25 years. Within the next 25 years, computing will : almost certainly move to hybrid computer/transputer models based on : quantum technology, and quite conceivably may even be moving fast : towards organic technology. Any current OS will be more obsolete than : CP/M is today. That does assume that we are still on the steep part of the technology curve. Planes, trains, and automobiles all went through periods of rapid change, followed by a longer period of slow evolution. It is _possible_ that we are past the steep part of OS change. 'Modern' OS kernals are more alike than they are different, and a lot of people are standardizing on twenty to thirty year old designs. I'd like to see some more revolution, but I don't see anything on the near horizon to force a change. : And incidentally, Linux is hardly the "be-all-and-end-all" of OSs. There are a lot of OSes out there. People are surprisingly conservative in the OSes they choose to run. http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/bridges/oses.html John
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 28 Jan 99 13:07:02 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D69485-11AEA@206.165.43.175> References: <SCOTT.99Jan27174330@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> said: > >This would include things like a uniform imaging model (converting PDF >to PS is trivially straightforward, and PS is ligua fraca for >printers), all the compositing and font-handling advantages of DPS, >all of the transforms and the like. It wouldn't be able to handle >things like setting a PS procedure for shading and the like - things >which might be very easy to address using a C-level API (instead of >passing a PS proc, you'd pass a C proc). Nor would it directly handle alpha channels or the more elaborate capabilities of GX's Ink objects. Nor would it retain the ATSUI/GXLayoutShape formatting info, nor a lot of other things that would be useful. BTW, PS is NOT the lingua fraca for all printers, and converting from PDF to printers with different capabilities than PS printers would quite likely mean a loss of imaging info. Better to have a robust, intermediate format that is easily translated to other formats, rather than requiring all applications to keep to a least common denominator when exchanging images. Again: it is possible that Apple will devise a more robust format that will sit along side the default PDF format to provide alternate descriptions of the image, but this presumes that Apple management is thinking in terms of doing *better* than PDF, rather than embracing "industry standards," as the iCEO has said should be the case. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: nm156@inetdirect.net (David Stoeckel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <36b0c808.10274204@news.netdirect.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> <cclark1-2801990824180001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:29:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:29:04 EDT Organization: Net Direct, Inc. On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:47:26 -0600, Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >Cherie Clark wrote: >> >> Yes and the 2.6 figure includes investments and moneies saved since the >> end f their fiscal year. In any event I will accept 2.3 because either way >> it IS a butt load of bucks > >When was the Bill Gates bail out? I know it wasn't in 1998. It has >been at least two years, possibly 3. That would put Apple at 952 >million dollars. That means that the 150 million dollars that Bill >Gates invested in them would be over 10% of their saved monies. That is >not a drop in the bucket. Even if it was in 96 that number is at the >END of the fiscal year as I understand it, so that would INCLUDE >Microsofts investment. So maybe that is why there was such a big jump >from 95 to 96. Of course, that is just a speculation. Even without >speculating the 1996 figure is 1,745 million which would make the $150 >million investment still just SLIGHTLY under 10% of Apple's monies. I >would hardly call 10% a "drop in the bucket." Quibbling over whether the dollar amount was significant or not totally misses the point. The investment was more of a vote of confidence than a financial deal. One that Apple desparately needed at the time.
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 28 Jan 1999 19:33:58 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78qe36$q2$1@news.xmission.com> References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan27173304@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 1999 19:33:58 GMT scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > In article <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes: > .... e.g. Henry McG. explained months ago why GhostScript is > unlikely to be able to replicate all of DPS (patents on shading > algorithms etc.) > > OTOH, if the alternative is nothing due to YB/NT's reliance on DPS, > then I'd be willing to accept a solution that implements the bare > minimum, things like PSshow() and PSmoveto(). > [...] I'm willing to bet that if you take all the > AppKit, plus all the moderately "current" YellowBox code out there, > and distinguish between "funky" Postscript and "non-funky" Postscript > (eg, the basic, straight-line code using things like moveto, gsave, > curveto, etc, etc), the "funky" Postscript is perhaps 2% of the total. Doesn't this totally sound like the Postscript junkie's version of a "Carbon" strategy? Display Postcarbon? :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: agave_@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:05:14 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78qje3$trf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36af8920.0@news.depaul.edu> <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79> <SCOTT.99Jan27174330@slave.doubleu.com> In article <SCOTT.99Jan27174330@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > > You're suggesting that a DPDF windowserver provides some percentage > less than 100% of the features of a DPS windowserver. For sake of > argument, let's say DPDF provides 70% of what DPS provides. > Even that's giving too much. Describing the drawing engine as "Display PDF" is inaccurate. It is a new display engine that uses the Postscript imaging model. PDF is but one of the exchange formats that is natively supported. Given that, there's no loss (and possibly even a gain if PS3 is supported) in features; they both use the same PS imaging model. How you interact with the server will be the main point of change. Of course, this is all what I've gathered from what Mike Paquette has publically stated. I think he's the only one here that really knows any of this stuff for sure :) -- Ian P. Cardenas BLaCKSMITH, inc. Software Engineer -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:30:29 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Message-ID: <36B13965.917C9A0C@mail.utexas.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <78ofs8$9te$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <36AFD2F6.F4419A4F@mail.utexas.edu> <78ooih$3j9$1@remarQ.com> <cclark1-2801990824180001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu> <joe.ragosta-2801991444480001@wil95.dol.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Ragosta wrote: > > In article <36B0B0BE.AFFE2348@mail.utexas.edu>, Brandon Forehand > <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > > > Cherie Clark wrote: > > > > > > Yes and the 2.6 figure includes investments and moneies saved since the > > > end f their fiscal year. In any event I will accept 2.3 because either way > > > it IS a butt load of bucks > > > > When was the Bill Gates bail out? I know it wasn't in 1998. It has > > been at least two years, possibly 3. That would put Apple at 952 > > million dollars. That means that the 150 million dollars that Bill > > Gates invested in them would be over 10% of their saved monies. That is > > Mid-1997. At that time, Apple had over $1 billion in cash and short term assets. > > > not a drop in the bucket. Even if it was in 96 that number is at the > > END of the fiscal year as I understand it, so that would INCLUDE > > Microsofts investment. So maybe that is why there was such a big jump > > from 95 to 96. Of course, that is just a speculation. Even without > > speculating the 1996 figure is 1,745 million which would make the $150 > > million investment still just SLIGHTLY under 10% of Apple's monies. I > > would hardly call 10% a "drop in the bucket." > > No. But it's also not "bailing the company out". If Apple had dropped to a > couple hundred million dollars, you might have been able to make that > statement. When they had over a billion dollars, talk of "bailing them > out" is nonsense. I was not trying to say Bill Gates "bailed them out." I never said that. I was merely disagreeing with the fact that it was an insignificant amount of money invested in Apple.
From: ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk (Ric) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:00:33 GMT Message-ID: <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> On 28 Jan 1999 22:19:05 GMT, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: >In <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> Rex Riley wrote: >cultural.. Bull... I'll tell you if SGI get's linux with fully blown OpenGL hardware >accelleration going on their VW's they will have some very nice choices to >offer customers. > >> Apple is in the business of mfg desires for machines that people don't know >> they want. > >Apple and business - Seems like oil and water to me. Certainly sounds like an oxymoron. >> Linux steals Apple's core competency "desire". > >Linux is here and is moving up solidly in the world. It was only a matter of >time before a couple of companies put LInux on their product sheets. As >I see it SGI and HP will help accellerate the momentum of it. I can also think >of some other projects that might help dramatically. Linux is on track to be >the number 1 OS by 2020-2025 as I predicted. ROFL! It is *most unlikely* that *any* current OS will still be around in any shape or form in 20 yrs' time! The kind of changes ahead in computing/computing hardware are of an even more radical nature than those of the last 25 years. Within the next 25 years, computing will almost certainly move to hybrid computer/transputer models based on quantum technology, and quite conceivably may even be moving fast towards organic technology. Any current OS will be more obsolete than CP/M is today. And incidentally, Linux is hardly the "be-all-and-end-all" of OSs. Ric
From: jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:21:00 -0500 Organization: None What-So-Ever Message-ID: <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 06:21:02 GMT In article <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu>, davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote: > Kevin Stone (stone@stoneentertainment.com) wrote: > : In article <5tFr2.24$fx3.275@news6.ispnews.com>, "Lance Togar" > > : > Eric A. Dubiel wrote in message <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net>... > : > >Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... > : > > > : > >Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging > : > >privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." > : > > > : > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html > : > > > : > >Big Brother Inside. > : > .. > : > Oh.... and where were you when they slipped the V-Chip in your TV? > > : Lance... many people intentialy avioded televisions with that technology > : too. They didn't want anyone imposing pre-determined ratings on what > : programs they should or should not allow their children to watch. So in a > : way Eric does have a point. But you can just as easily pick up an AMD > : processor (with a compatible MB) and be done with Intel all together. > > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says > > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 > > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. > Yes but who can trust EETimes after ther stupid fuss over a lousy $1 per port licencing for firewire? Consider that DVD requires a $4 licence per player, $5,000 fee for printed specifications of the current formats, and a one time $1,000,000 fee as well as restricitve licence if you wish to include a decoder to play "scrambled" videos, ie. ones with copy prevention. They should take up that cause if they are worried about a standard being derailed by IP licences.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming Date: 28 Jan 99 23:27:09 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D6A2F3-47EE7@206.165.43.175> References: <F6ACnu.7Fr@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> said: >In <B2D50CC1-127954@206.165.43.79> "Lawson English" wrote: >> The "trivial" is in reference to having scrolling, non-opaque text on top >> of a bitmap background, not in reference to saving the image in PDF >format. > > Indeed, it is trival to do under YB, it's about 50 lines (maybe less). The >boss whipped up a OS4.2 version of this for fun in an hour or so a few >weeks >back after seeing MacTicker. It's 50 lines or less to implement the GX Ink object functionality (beyond alpha channel) for this, which is what my addendum/correction was about? OK, Maury, how does one take text and composit on top of a bitmap in such a way that: 1) the text is defined in CYMK space 2) the compositing parameters are defined in RGBA space 3) the A component of the text is set equal to the R-value of the text 4) the R value is copied on to the bitmap 5) the G is composited on to the bitmap, taking into account the alpha value (which is really the Red component, remember) 6) the Blue value is first set equal to the sum of .5x the blue + .3x the red, and than added to the blue value of the bitmap. 7) Did I mention that the R value of the composited image can only be drawn if the value is less than oxff00, but greater than 0x00ff? 8) etc? There are 100 parameters that apply to the Ink object, Maury. I'm hard-pressed to imagine that you can implement functionality AND set the equivalent parameters in less than 50 lines of code. And the neat thing about GX Ink objects is that you only have to set the parameters once and they'll stick around until you want to change how they work. While klunky, it is possible to implement the equivalent of color style-runs where every psuedo-style-run has its own Ink object, so you can have words that are transparent, or that add the Blue value of the text to the Red value of the bitmap, etc. You could even have text that is drawn UNDER the bitmap, using the text-style's ink-object to control how the bitmap is drawn OVER the text, etc. Your boss implemented all of this functionality in 50 lines of code? I don't think so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hosun Sacreligious Lee <holee@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: 29 Jan 1999 06:32:42 GMT Organization: Vorpal Bunnies Unlimited Message-ID: <78rkma$g6e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> Josh Lewis <jslewis@erols.com> writes: : In article <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu>, : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. : Wang) wrote: : > Kevin Stone (stone@stoneentertainment.com) wrote: : > : In article <5tFr2.24$fx3.275@news6.ispnews.com>, "Lance Togar" : > : > : > Eric A. Dubiel wrote in message <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net>... : > : > >Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a : PowerPC... : > : > > : > : > >Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging : > : > >privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." : > : > > : > : > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html : > : > > : > : > >Big Brother Inside. : > : > .. : > : > Oh.... and where were you when they slipped the V-Chip in your TV? : > : > : Lance... many people intentialy avioded televisions with that technology : > : too. They didn't want anyone imposing pre-determined ratings on what : > : programs they should or should not allow their children to watch. So in a : > : way Eric does have a point. But you can just as easily pick up an AMD : > : processor (with a compatible MB) and be done with Intel all together. : > : > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says : > : > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 : > : > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope : > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. : > : Yes but who can trust EETimes after ther stupid fuss over a lousy $1 per : port licencing for firewire? I think the furor was the fact that Apple decided to charge this fee after the fact. A nicer time would have been say, a year or so ago. Before everyone started like firewire. I mean, if you have a replicator that costs say, $15 with five ports, that'll go to $20 right there. For one device, maybe that still doesn't seem noticeable. Multiply it by a couple of hundred thousand and you can see why manufacturers are having second thought. Besides, the Journal, CNET and ZDNet all seemed to get pretty ticked about it, too. What did EETimes do that was so unique? -- \\ \\ Hosun S. Lee // Vorpal Bunny(TM) \\-\\ http://www.vorpalbunny.com ( 0-0) "My advice to intelligent teenagers in love: Take your dates to {_^_} THE WATERBOY. If they like it, break up." - Roger Ebert on the worst movies of 1998.
From: gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:59:56 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 06:33:58 GMT Cc: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu In <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Peter wrote: > > I don't even want to talk about OS X's UI......... > > Why? The UI will change for the personal edition. As for the server, I > am sure most of the powr users would simply prefer a CLI. The *only* thing that has kept me from moving to one of the free BSD Unixes (like OpenBSD, FreeBSD) has been the NEXTSTEP GUI. I love NeXTmail (with Tom's Enhances of course), I love the separate vertical menu, I love the feel of the GUI and the sophistication (simple thing like asking to create all subdirs for you if they do not exist when you save something). I love the browser Woorkspace manager. I use a lot of CLI for the tasks that I need a CLI for. I am a 'power user' and I do things like postfix, dns, uucp, tcp/ip, and all the low level stuff. But what keeps me using my NeXT is the GUI. What has stopped me from buying Apple stuff so far is uncertainty of the prospects of that combination. I've adopted a wait-and-see attitude. I have seen the DR2, and the 'advanced Macintosh look and feel' is a step back. I am afraid that the conservatism of the Mac community will prevent any necessary radical changes for some time to come. I guess Apple is too conservative to take the plunge. Maybe it is indeed time to start looking at some ***BSD with SmallTalk. Maybe, maybe GNUStep will become anything, but so far I don't see anything really happening. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:10:51 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 06:33:58 GMT Cc: don@misckit.com In <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote: > henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: > > I thought it was more the case of Apple not willing to pay the DPS > > licensing fees. > > <rumor mode=on type=wild> > > No. I've heard that it is a case of Adobe telling Apple that there will be > no more licenses, for any price, period. And that Apple couldn't buy the > soon to be retired code base, either. As in, Adobe wants this product stone > cold dead. (Of course, they can't stop the GNUSTEP people. Hah!) So, why didn't Apple move on to some other implementation of DPS, say a GNU one? They do use gcc too, after all. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> Message-ID: <ZHcs2.102$W32.597017@news.bctel.net> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:38:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:38:49 PDT In article <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: > >On the other hand, I'm damn well going to make sure that I have a safety net >available in case things go wrong. That's not to say that I expect them to >go wrong. More to say that I'd be stupid to not have an insurance policy of >a sort prepared. And set up the policy so that it is useful even if things >go well so that I'm not wasting my time. > >GNUSTEP anyone? > I agree 100% .......my involvement in the Software industry is not going to be dictated by Apple policy. GNUstep is looking better all the time as an insurance policy. When Rhapsody/Mac OS X were announced interest in the GNUstep project seemed to have declined...but after Apple's true intentions (backed up by their actions, or lack of) have more people looking at GNUstep again. Wouldn't we all want a free implantation of the OPENSTEP standard? I would......and DGS certainly looks better than that extremely slow buggy crap on DR2!
From: jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:56:10 -0500 Organization: None What-So-Ever Message-ID: <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 06:56:10 GMT In article <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... > > Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging > privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html > > Big Brother Inside. That was pioneered with the LISA! Intel does catch up! Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? by cookies, by ethernet address, tcp/ip adress, by hard disk checksum, by what else? Intel was only unique in that a) it was broadcast over the internet, b)they had a random number generator run by the heat of their CPUs!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Message-ID: <nagleF6B848.F7u@netcom.com> Organization: ICGNetcom References: <SCOTT.99Jan27174330@slave.doubleu.com> <B2D69485-11AEA@206.165.43.175> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:14:31 GMT Sender: nagle@netcom6.netcom.com "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> writes: >Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> said: >>This would include things like a uniform imaging model (converting PDF >>to PS is trivially straightforward, and PS is ligua fraca for >>printers), all the compositing and font-handling advantages of DPS, >>all of the transforms and the like. It wouldn't be able to handle >>things like setting a PS procedure for shading and the like - things >>which might be very easy to address using a C-level API (instead of >>passing a PS proc, you'd pass a C proc). PDF, like PostScript, is an output-only representation. Trying to edit it in any useful way is very hard. John Nagle
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Date: 29 Jan 1999 07:25:01 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <78rnod$ddq$4@hecate.umd.edu> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> Josh Lewis (jslewis@erols.com) wrote: : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. : Wang) wrote: : > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says : > : > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 : > : > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope : > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. : Yes but who can trust EETimes after ther stupid fuss over a lousy $1 per : port licencing for firewire? EETimes is still allright in my book. They've got technically knowedgable people covering a wide range of subjects, and I do learn quite a lot just by browsing their web site everyday. I can't say the same thing for many other magazines. Paper or electronic. Just this morning, as I was reading "the Register" 's description about IBM's SOI process, I cringed. ;-< : Consider that DVD requires a $4 licence per player, $5,000 fee for printed : specifications of the current formats, and a one time $1,000,000 fee as : well as restricitve licence if you wish to include a decoder to play : "scrambled" videos, ie. ones with copy prevention. They should take up : that cause if they are worried about a standard being derailed by IP : licences. -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 28 Jan 1999 22:51:18 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: marco@sente.ch.mil In <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> Marco Scheurer wrote: > On 01/28/99, Scott Anguish wrote: > >On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: > >>In article <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, > >pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) wrote: > >>>In article <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com > >(Henry) wrote: > >>> > >>>> Yellow Box on NT will no longer be supported........ > >>> > >>>I never heard this. At MW SF they repeatidly said that YB for NT is > >on track > >>> > >>>Peter > >>> > >>I am just repeating what we were told.....time will tell. > >> > > > > Funny that you won't tell us WHO that was that said that. > > Well that one should be easy to figure out: quoting from the second > message in this thread: > > | On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: > | > > | >This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide > | >Developer relations told us a Macworld ........ > | > > | >"YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" > > I assume there is one and only one Apple's VP of World Wide > Developer relations. > > | On 01/28/99, Henry also wrote: > | >The individual is higher up than Ernie....... you can't expect me > | >to name him in this public forum... > > Hello ?! Is this the same 'Henry'? This pretty much ruin the whole > argument as far as I am concerned. > > Remember a few months ago when Rhapsody/MacOSX was declared dead by > someone-from-Apple-who-knows in Germany? This thread looks like it, and > today, MacOSX is proeminently displayed on Apple's home page. > > For one thing, I'd like the *name* Yellow Box to be dead. > > Take care, > Again the major points. First. YB/Win is not shipping - not even a price is determined yet. If Adobe is deep sixing DPS then Apple is stuck on YB until they can get the new display engine in there. To me this means YB is potentially shelved for 9-12 months. Not a great place to be for your 'cross platform development' and deployment option - gee is this why Java is being touted so much?. Second. It seems clear that within Apple itself is a huge schism and because of this Apple is NOT presenting a solid focussed plan. This is rippling like a tidal wave through YB developers, and Enterprise customers.. I've asked this before - can anyone purchase Openstep 4.2 from Apple have they ever been able to purchase 4.2 (and I'm not talking Prelude to Rhapsody). Third. MacOS X to my knowledge isn't a shipping product either - we have a price but no product. Fourth. MacOS X Intel is dead - why? Adobe possibly? Schism in Apple? All the Enterprise and Developer folk with investiments in x86 for MacOS X are effectively left in a lurch. To me all of the above spell that YB for all intensive purposes right now IS DEAD.. When and IF Apple decides to resusicate the corpse we'll see whether the YB can do a Jesus Christ resurrection. Frankly Apple by really pissing off the Enterprise and the YB Developers by axing MacOS X intel has effectively hastened the death of YB.. They can give YB all the lip service they want - but if the actions don't back up the words then no matter of ads, or speeches, or assurances will bring anyone back to the table - even worse these customers will henceforth campaign against Apple in every venue which they have power.. If Apple has licensing problems - or other issues - they do better to be up front and honest about how/why they are switching tracks.. Apple unfortunately doesn't understand the concept of being up front with customers.. Nor of Actions backing up words - i.e MacOS X intel. YB/Win will continue to be a nagging issue until they spill the beans on this. Now as for making a sucessful business plan that is "Thinking Different". Oh and I do think the Adobe DPS issue is Apple and particularly Jobs payback for the past arrogance - what goes around comes around. I'm waiting with baited breath for the day Motorola cuts Apple off from G4's just because the market is too small beyond embedded systems. When that day comes - we'll find Apple and all involved up the crick without a preverbial paddle, boat, or even a way to swim.. Then I will know there is indeed justice in the world. NOTE: This is current fact interspersed with speculative analysis. Use at your own risk.. Ill effects I won't be responsible for: 1) Anger 2) Depression 3) Pessmism To Scott and Malcolm - I hope you have your golden parachutes because there was a time I believed and repeated things Apple told me. And here we are with many of them simply not true. What were the shipping dates? What about YB/Win - where is that (limbo). MacOS X intel - where is that - in the crypt? Openstep 4.2 - deep sixed long ago. Apple is long with words but short on actions - this is their number 1 problem and it is directly the effect of Apple itself not being unified internally. Until Apple settles the internal civil war expect more of the same.. Fortunately I have long since taken my $$ and clients and went elsewhere.. Too bad too since many of them invested heavily in NeXT long ago.. They won't ever look back. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: John Rudd <jrudd@cygnus.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:19:46 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Message-ID: <36B16112.F708E1D6@cygnus.com> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <hugh-280119992028054707@39.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <cdoutyF6AvDn.L67@netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Douty wrote: > > The "transputer" was a computer architecture based on the notion of a lot > of inexpensive processor modules working in parallel. (At least) One > company, perhaps Inmos, had a line of "transputer" CPUs. Part of the > promise was infinite (or very great) scalability, since you could just > keep adding processor modules. AFAIK, "transputer" is not a Briticism. > > I believe that word "transputer" was derived from the notion that these > things would be as cheep as transistors. > > I appologize for not explaining the transputer architecture very well. > Is anyone out there more familiar? I know that Microway sold a line of > transputer based acelerators for numerical processing. I believe that > that was the only half-way sucessful niche for the transputer, since > self-parallelizing code and high interconnect speed have yet to appear. > It's not just a britishism. I used to see ads for the Microway transputer systems in Byte all the time. I hadn't seen one in years though. They were useful back in the days of 20 and 30 MHz 80x86 and 68k based systems. Once conventional CPU's started to build in speed and parallel processing support, they weren't really as useful due to their being highly specialized processors, instead of general purpose CPU's. Also, I believe "transputer" was sort of supposed to imply a "transcendant" computer. Like, we've moved beyond conventional computing. Dunno if that's accurate or not.
Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <36aeaa5d$0$16685@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79> In-Reply-To: <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79> From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) Date: 29 Jan 1999 07:33:30 GMT Message-ID: <36b1644a$0$16678@nntp1.ba.best.com> On 01/27/99, "Lawson English" wrote: >Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said: > >>>And how do you call "real" objects from a non-OOP language? >> >>By using the runtime library that actually does all the work of >>invoking methods. It's not rocket science. >> >>The same runtime is what lets you interface other OO and non-OO >>languages to the OO objects. > >OK, let me get this straight. You are saying that one should use a runtime >that allows you to interface non-OO objects to an OO library in an OS that >didn't support OOP libraries when the system was first introduced? No, I did not say that. You asked *how* one could call a 'real' object system from a non-OO language, and I told you *how* to do it. That is all I said. I never said you (or anyone else) *should* do things that way. I was merely providing a technical example of how it could be done. >In fact, GX *is* an OOP runtime, from what I have heard, with a C API >on top. So, not only are the C programmers limited in how they use GX, but even people using the same OO language that GX was supposedly implemented with are stuck with the same set of restrictions. >The only real difference between > >GXDrawShape(myShape); > >and > >myShape.GXDrawShape(); > >is syntactic sugar. Except that in the second case, assuming you are using C++ syntax for a reason, you can write a subclass of GXShape. Correct me if I'm wrong, but programmers can't add new shape classes to GX, right? >Say I wanted to implement a GX-like library in Carbon/YB so that >non-OOP applications could use it. What syntax would I use for a >non-OOP language to invoke methods other than the one that GX uses? Whatever syntax you want, since you are just wrapping the objects. Use your shape library from Perl if you'd like. >In other words, why not implement a GX-like system in Carbon that is >compatible with what the YB has, only not extensible? Good question, why not? Seems like it'd be possible, and probably not that difficult. >Or is YB graphics so dependend on the framework that you can't divorce >the graphics routines from hosting framework? I think you are still confused as to how the graphics support in YellowBox and Carbon will work. Both Yellow and Carbon apps will be using *the exact same graphics model* at the lowest level, i.e., Extended (Enhanced?) QuickDraw. eQD will implement the PostScript *rendering model* (not the language interpreter), which is effectively the same as PDF. It will be a nice simple procedural immediate mode rendering API, which for the lowest level is probably a good thing. YellowBox will also have a higher level set of graphics classes like NSBezier, NSText, etc. that can be used as an abstraction layer above eQD. I see no fundamental reason why someone (even Apple) could not provide something similar for Carbon, either as a set of C++ classes, or whatever you'd like. It probably happened on YB because it was fairly natural to add new classes to an existing OO framework. Carbon has no native OO framework, so it's a bit more work since you have to target the lowest common denominator (C and perhaps Pascal). Furthermore, someone with a lot of time on their hands could implement QuickDraw GX on top of eQD if they so desired. Or, perhaps someone could convince Apple to open-source GX to save people some time and effort in such a project. -Ken -- Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kcd@3dfx.com (work) Sr. Software Engineer, Cross Platform Development, 3Dfx Interactive C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand (Lawrence DđOliveiro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:02:10 +1300 Organization: Geek Central Message-ID: <ldo-2901992102100001@a30.hn3.wave.co.nz> References: <SCOTT.99Jan27174330@slave.doubleu.com> <B2D69485-11AEA@206.165.43.175> <nagleF6B848.F7u@netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 08:05:50 GMT In article <nagleF6B848.F7u@netcom.com>, nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle) wrote: > PDF, like PostScript, is an output-only representation. Trying >to edit it in any useful way is very hard. Think of PDF as a graphical display-list format--it's the PostScript graphical model without the PostScript programming language. As such, it is certainly quite feasible to read in a PDF page description, edit it at the level of graphical objects, and spit the result out again as PDF. It's a lot easier to do this with PDF than with PostScript--for the latter, you effectively have to implement a full PostScript language interpreter. To put it another way, to make small changes in the appearance of a PDF page, you can always make correspondingly small changes to the PDF source. For PostScript, this is in general not true. As for the capabilities PostScript/PDF versus GX, for a long time people have been able to make use of the programming language capabilities of PostScript to cover up the deficiencies in its graphics model. With PDF, you don't have this option. Which is why I am less than enthusiastic about the idea of using PDF as the basis of the OS graphics architecture...
From: "Rev. Aaron Reichow" <reichowa@tcfreenet.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: NeXT monitors Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:10:32 -0600 Organization: MinnNet Communications, Inc. Message-ID: <36B16CF8.A4BB6059@tcfreenet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 08:07:40 GMT What kind of monitors can/do NeXT computers utilize? Any old PC/Mac (S)VGA, or something special? And does anyone have any special reccomendations for purchasing a used NeXT computer? Or any pointers to online stores which sellthem? Thanks! Aaron
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> Message-ID: <36b16ff7.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 29 Jan 99 08:23:19 GMT In comp.sys.next.advocacy Josh Lewis <jslewis@erols.com> wrote: > Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? > by cookies, Can be disabled > by ethernet address, Useless unless there's an ethernet adaptor. > tcp/ip adress, Useless for dynamically assigned addresses > by hard disk checksum, Hard disks fail too often.
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 29 Jan 1999 08:22:58 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <78rr52$pvv$1@remarQ.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <cdoutyF6Atr2.Ir5@netcom.com> <t19s2.76$W32.503472@news.bctel.net> >Perhaps Apple should donate some programming time to the DGS project to get it >completed....we would then be much better off....and Adobe would be out of the >equation. I suspect the Apple people who would be really good at it have been contaminated by viewing Adobe source. -- Don McGregor | "In retrospect it becomes clear that hindsight mcgredo@mbay.net | is definitely overrated." --Alfred E. Neuman
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:30:40 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78qoeh$26k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601991416550001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net> <bwyman-2601991936560001@bwyman.tiac.net> In article <bwyman-2601991936560001@bwyman.tiac.net>, bwyman@neaq.org (Bruce Wyman) wrote: > In article <s4rr2.32$jP6.371118@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: >> Apples own Web Site is run from 5 Intel machines using >> OPENSTEP/WebObjects......even they have no yet migrated over!!!!! > > Usign Netcraft's web sever query at > <http://www.netcraft.com/cgi-bin/Survey/whats/>, we get: > > "www.apple.com is running Netscape-Enterprise/3.5.1C on Solaris. > > Netscape-Enterprise is also being used by BMW, Dilbert, Playboy, Sybase, > Ferrari and The Vatican." store1.apple.com (which uses WebObjects, of course) is using NS 3.5.1G on Solaris. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Stop whining Date: 29 Jan 1999 00:16:10 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7b1ve9.hii.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <36AF5591.DCA51DAF@msi.se> <F68Iy2.Lty@T-FCN.Net> <36B02103.3032F2C4@msi.se> <F6AD3E.7p4@T-FCN.Net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 00:16:10 GMT Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: : :> instance, of NXhosting, which, as far as I have understood won't be :possible :> with eQD, at least not with some additional effort. : : Yes, but "additional effort" is very little. Consider that many companies :sell products that do this already on graphics engines that were never :designed to do it in the first place, like the Mac. : : The new engine is client side and has no built-in streaming system (like :the language in DPS). This doesn't mean that it's impossible. It doesn't :even mean it's hard. It could be easy, or it could be very very very hard. The true underlying issue is whether the programming model takes into account the possibility for remote display, and of course, remote input. X does, NeXTSTEP did, and I hope MacOS X will, even if it's not implemented perfectly in the initial release. On the other hand, if you design your system---and the applications get written---without regard to this, retrofitting it can be very difficult and slow and buggy. Viz Citrix and all the angst Microsoft is having with remote Windows terminals, despite enormous $$$ invesments. And given the seemingly growing MacOS-club-wielding-monobrow contingent, I'm getting awfully worried..... I'm sure that if Mike Paquette got his wish, things would turn out right. But...Dilbert is not always just a cartoon. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 29 Jan 1999 05:32:54 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 05:32:54 GMT spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > I've asked this before - can anyone purchase Openstep 4.2 from Apple > have they ever been able to purchase 4.2 (and I'm not talking Prelude > to Rhapsody). I don't know about in the past, but right now you cannot buy 4.2 from them for any price. If you try, you'll waste a lot of effort for nothing. > To me all of the above spell that YB for all intensive purposes right > now IS DEAD.. [...] The problem I see is that people are following this logic: Given that Apple says "A": * promised an Intel version of Rhapsody. * Jobs himself said there _would_ be one release. * Apple said, "don't worry, just trust us" over this. And Apple does "B": * the Intel release is dead. Now, switch to a new technology. Apple is saying "C" which looks a lot like "A" before it: * there is promising a future for YB, but way off in the future. * Apple is saying, "be patient, don't worry, trust us". Given what happened last time, the expected action is "D": * Yellow Box is dead. Now, the logic is faulty because it breaks down to this: 1. Given A. 2. If A then B. 3. Therefore, by 2, B. 4. Given C. 5. Therefore, by 2, D. The fallacy lies in step 5 in that C doesn't necessarily imply D as A implied B. A and C look similar but are not necessarily the same. New technology, new rules. That doesn't mean that we won't learn that C = A somewhere down the road, but right now we're missing that key rule. In fact, A doesn't even really imply B; they aren't necessarily a cause and effect, so rule 2 could be considered an incorrect assumption, too. However, by applying fuzzy logic, previous actions tend to be a pattern for future actions, and that trend is scary to a YB developer. Especially when you look further into Apple's history and start seeing the pattern reinforced. So you can argue it both ways--and that's sure been happening here! I don't know what kind of future, positive or negative, YB will have from Apple. I'd like to believe that it has a good one. At this point--and until things ship--I consider it to be as indeterminate as the life or death of Schroedinger's cat. On the other hand, I'm damn well going to make sure that I have a safety net available in case things go wrong. That's not to say that I expect them to go wrong. More to say that I'd be stupid to not have an insurance policy of a sort prepared. And set up the policy so that it is useful even if things go well so that I'm not wasting my time. GNUSTEP anyone? -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan28130107@slave.doubleu.com> References: <slrn7as5fc.38j.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <B2D3A7B2-FE20@206.165.43.151> <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan27173304@slave.doubleu.com> <36B08FD2.F44A4586@yahoo.com> In-reply-to: Rex Riley's message of Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:44:05 GMT Date: 28 Jan 99 13:01:07 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:59:50 PDT In article <36B08FD2.F44A4586@yahoo.com>, Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> writes: Scott Hess wrote: > In article <78nsnb$j72$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > malcolm@plsys.co.uk writes: > .... e.g. Henry McG. explained months ago why GhostScript is > unlikely to be able to replicate all of DPS (patents on shading > algorithms etc.) > > OTOH, if the alternative is nothing due to YB/NT's reliance on > DPS, then I'd be willing to accept a solution that implements the > bare minimum, things like PSshow() and PSmoveto(). <snip> > I mean, it would be painful for certain developers, but it would > be an _addressable_ pain. I could make plans based on it ["Boss, > we'll need two months in the schedule to replicate DPS feature > Xxxx that will be missing from the next version of YellowBox."] For this you expect companies to pay $1000's for lic and deployment fees to Apple with holes big enough to swallow months of manpower? Let me elaborate - _I_ shouldn't have to make any changes to any apps I've written, unless they _really_ modify the APIs. Some developers, like Create, obviously will have to. Right now, Apple has implied that these problems are why we can't get a reasonable YB/NT - even for those people who really use the DPS-specific stuff, it would be better to have an option than to be in limbo. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:21:28 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78sckh$dd8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> In article <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > I've asked this before - can anyone purchase Openstep 4.2 from Apple > > have they ever been able to purchase 4.2 (and I'm not talking Prelude > > to Rhapsody). > > I don't know about in the past, but right now you cannot buy 4.2 from > them for any price. If you try, you'll waste a lot of effort for > nothing. > Umm, odd, since by coincidence we've just been sent a quote for OPENSTEP 4.2 which we need for a customer... Best wishes, mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: malcolm@plsys.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:31:03 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78sd6n$dsn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> In article <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > To Scott and Malcolm - I hope you have your golden parachutes > Yes, thanks -- we (P & L anyway) are doing more business now than we ever did during the NeXT era. > there was a time I believed and repeated things Apple told me. > I still believe much of what apple tells me -- the thing is I generally don't believe what they're not telling me. > And here we are with many of them simply not true. > OK... > What were the shipping dates? > MacOS X Server, we're told: February. Two months late on the revised schedule. > What about YB/Win - where is that (limbo). > Depends on your definition of limbo. I have no reason at this stage to believe that Apple is not still committed to delivering this. > MacOS X intel - where is that - in the crypt? > It certainly looks that way. As I've said on many occasions before: Do I like this? No? Do I understand why Apple is doing this? Yes. Did I try to do something constructive about it? Yes. Did I urge others to do the same? Yes. Did they? Well, did you? > Openstep 4.2 - deep sixed long ago. > Umm, simply not true. We've been able to get hold of it. > Fortunately I have long since taken my $$ and clients and went > elsewhere.. > OK, so why continue posting here? > Too bad too since many of them invested heavily in NeXT long ago.. > They won't ever look back. > This is something Apple needs to understand. Did you communicate this to them, directly? mmalc. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:16:12 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Message-ID: <sg.od.in-2901990916130001@10.1.11.11> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > Heck not even MacOS on Unix really. Say Carbon on Unix, Say Emulation > in BlueBox on Unix - that's as far as it goes IMHO.. When it comes to MacOS > there is no sum - it just gets continually carried along.. > > What's the buzzword - > > Legacy, Legacy, Legacy.. I can't say it enough.. :) yeah yeah.. you've just watched Apple ditch the goddamn FLOPPY DRIVE, and you can still say this only because you forget how much older microsoft's legacy with DOS is. if the move to bypass the floppy drive is any indication of apple's willingness to ditch old technology (witness the move to 32-bit clean applications with the Macintosh IIci and onward having 32-bit clean ROMS and the OS migration to 100% 32-bit clean with the advent of System 7.0 as just ONE example)... the fact that you can say this and believe it is laughable. :D~ -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 29 Jan 1999 17:54:10 GMT Organization: NEXTTOYOU Message-ID: <78ssk2$768$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 17:54:10 GMT gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote: > So, why didn't Apple move on to some other implementation of DPS, say a GNU > one? They do use gcc too, after all. Because Adobe threatened them with not porting PageMaker etc. to Carbon? Bye Uli _____________________________________________________________________ Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: - D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007 Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042 _____________________________________________________________________
From: spam@spam.mil (Rick Tan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:32:04 -0800 Organization: ACI Message-ID: <spam-2901991032040001@tanri.apple.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> In article <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com>, jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: > Yes but who can trust EETimes after ther stupid fuss over a lousy $1 per > port licencing for firewire? > > Consider that DVD requires a $4 licence per player, $5,000 fee for printed > specifications of the current formats, and a one time $1,000,000 fee as > well as restricitve licence if you wish to include a decoder to play > "scrambled" videos, ie. ones with copy prevention. They should take up > that cause if they are worried about a standard being derailed by IP > licences. Its because it has Apple in the topic. The media knows that if they put Apple somewhere in their articles, you are guarranteed an uptick in readership.
From: adamb@lull.org (Adam Bailey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: 29 Jan 1999 18:44:16 GMT Organization: EnterAct, L.L.C. Message-ID: <slrn7b40c0.ent.adamb@nathan.enteract.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <spam-2901991032040001@tanri.apple.com> Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) In message <spam-2901991032040001@tanri.apple.com>, Rick Tan <spam@spam.mil> wrote... > In article > <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com>, > jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: > >> Yes but who can trust EETimes after ther stupid fuss over a lousy $1 per >> port licencing for firewire? >> >> Consider that DVD requires a $4 licence per player, $5,000 fee for printed >> specifications of the current formats, and a one time $1,000,000 fee as >> well as restricitve licence if you wish to include a decoder to play >> "scrambled" videos, ie. ones with copy prevention. They should take up >> that cause if they are worried about a standard being derailed by IP >> licences. > > Its because it has Apple in the topic. The media knows that if they put > Apple somewhere in their articles, you are guarranteed an uptick in > readership. Gil Amelio noted that in his book. Funny thing, that... -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | "Logic is the art of going wrong with adamkb@aol.com | confidence." - George Bernard Shaw Finger for PGP | http://www.lull.org/adam/
From: spam@spam.mil (Rick Tan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:33:50 -0800 Organization: ACI Message-ID: <spam-2901991033500001@tanri.apple.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <78rkma$g6e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> In article <78rkma$g6e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, Hosun Sacreligious Lee <holee@primenet.com> wrote: > I think the furor was the fact that Apple decided to charge this fee > after the fact. A nicer time would have been say, a year or so ago. Before > everyone started like firewire. > > I mean, if you have a replicator that costs say, $15 with five ports, > that'll go to $20 right there. For one device, maybe that still doesn't > seem noticeable. Multiply it by a couple of hundred thousand and you can > see why manufacturers are having second thought. > > Besides, the Journal, CNET and ZDNet all seemed to get pretty ticked about > it, too. What did EETimes do that was so unique? Other licensees paid a flat fee. Its just the late-comers that get the $1 per port fee. So, the early adopters are coming out ahead, in both fees and products to market.
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:49:48 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78svs8$vvh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <917145615.2018368334@news1.telia.com> <78fha2$7n$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <78iqpn$1he$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78j5kc$o0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <36af324c.0@news.provo.novell.com> <2QHr2.15$qN.204124@news.bctel.net> <F68IJI.LF4@T-FCN.Net> <78qn88$971$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <sg.od.in-2901990916130001@10.1.11.11> sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) wrote: > > Legacy, Legacy, Legacy.. I can't say it enough.. :) > > yeah yeah.. you've just watched Apple ditch the goddamn FLOPPY DRIVE, and > you can still say this only because you forget how much older microsoft's > legacy with DOS is. > if the move to bypass the floppy drive is any indication of apple's > willingness to ditch old technology ... What's really strange is just how schizophrenic Apple is being. On the one hand, all kinds of legacy code and hardware is being ditched (floppies, ADB, SCSI, etc), but on the other hand, no-one dares touch the crufty old MacOS UI because it's "a legacy." I just wish Apple was demonstrating as much leadership on UI matters as they are on hardware. Calling what they've grafted onto NeXTSTEP an "advanced Mac UI" is pretty laughable. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, apparently condemned by Apple to remain a reluctant Windows NT user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:03:29 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-290119991304184428@108.minneapolis-16-17rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <36aeaa5d$0$16685@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79> <36b1644a$0$16678@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <36b1644a$0$16678@nntp1.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote: > > Except that in the second case, assuming you are using C++ syntax for a > reason, you can write a subclass of GXShape. Correct me if I'm wrong, > but programmers can't add new shape classes to GX, right? > Create an abstract base class that contains all the necessary data structures, and incorporates relay methods to all the pseudo-methods of the system object in question. In the same header, include a macro to use in all derived constructors, using enums for the different dispatch values. Derive simple subclasses with different private enums to effect polymorphic construction and behavior. _Voila!_ - you've got yourself a perfect mimic of the hidden system object. You can derive further objects to your heart's content, treat it as 100% pure OOP if you want. You _will_ take a slight performance hit, since all messages must be relayed through multiple methods. But, then again, C++ always causes a bit of a performance hit. Hopefully the system stuff won't be written in actual C++, so it'll have the speed of pure vanilla C and you'll come out break-even. And it'll be easier for the OS team to maintain, too. ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 29 Jan 99 12:04:10 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D7543D-3B2B2@206.165.43.188> References: <SCOTT.99Jan28164016@slave.doubleu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> said: >The PDF-file-format stuff that floats up in this thread is a complete >red herring. It won't communicate using PDF anymore than DPS >communicates using Postscript code. [DPS uses a stream of >pre-digested tokens. Restricting the token set to only the PDF subset >should be nigh unto trivial.] I can't speak for what is *really* going to happen, but my understanding is that the underlying graphics system will be accessed via an API, rather than a token stream, so the NeXT-style imaging simply won't happen without 3rd-party addons. And the PDF-file-format issue may or may not be a red herring. I have read that the main image distribution format for MacOS X will be the PDF file format, which is NOT designed for further editing, save in the sense that you can go in with a text processor and edit things or use an expensive app to translate the PDF into an editable image. The GX file format IS designed for cheap and robust editing, but is pretty much fixed in that it doesn't allow for new object types. Others have suggested that a completely extensible format be designed using XML. Regardless, *as presented*, the PDF plan doesn't sound very appealing. As I pointed out to Maury Markowitz, PDF doesn't allow one to specify transparencies or other non-opaque compositing operations, nor does it allow one to group objects, nor apply non-affine transforms and edit the resulting objects later on using a different application. The proper *internal* [MacOS X] pre-press file format should be QuickTime, with a DTP codec for an GX/XML-ish format and appropriate extensions to the QTI scripting language to allow GXFCN-like manipulations of the images. Once the QTI pre-press is done, translation to PDF or other printable format should be the LAST step, not the first. This would allow internet broadcast of DTP-quality images, among myriad other goodies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:09:36 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-290119991310266584@108.minneapolis-16-17rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <hugh-280119992028054707@39.minneapolis-08-09rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <cdoutyF6AvDn.L67@netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <cdoutyF6AvDn.L67@netcom.com>, cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote: > > Are you serious, or are you just dorking around? > No, just showing my ignorance, as usual. But I do wonder if the term is falling into disuse on this side of the Atlantic and thus slowly becoming a Briticism. Seems to me I've only heard it from blokes, not guys. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> Subject: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <36B1C25F.9BB79E93@oaai.com> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc. References: <B2D502B2-101C57@206.165.43.79> <B2D50CC1-127954@206.165.43.79> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:14:55 GMT Lawson English wrote: > Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said: > > >If you add in GX's > >per-color-channel transfer modes, it is even less PDF-like, but still > >trivial to do. > > The "trivial" is in reference to having scrolling, non-opaque text on top > of a bitmap background, not in reference to saving the image in PDF format. ...just off the top of my head: NSAttributedString string; NSImage semitransparentString; NSImage backgroundImage; // assume this exists and is a bitmap... // create the string to draw. string = new NSAttributedString("Semi-transparent text"); // create the image object we'll draw semi-transparently semitransparentString = new NSImage(); // put the text into the image object semitransparentString.lockFocus(); NSGraphics.drawAttributedString(string); semitransparentString.unlockFocus(); // draw the background image backgroundImage.compositeToPoint(new NSPoint(0,0), NSImage.CompositeSourceOver); // to scroll, adjust the point you composite the text image // object to... 0.5 translates to 50% transparency... semitransparentString.dissolveToPoint(new NSPoint(0, 0), 0.5); Best regards, Mark (Maury's boss) Onyschuk ps. you're right, it is pretty trivial.
From: arobot@cmg.fcnbd.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Need salary/hourly rate datapoints for OpenStep development Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:44:01 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78soge$om2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Hi- I'm thinking of making a move to OpenStep development as an independent consultant, and would like to compile some data points concerning typical hourly rates. Could anyone provide some input? Along similar lines, what should an established OpenStep developer typically expect for salary as a permanent employee (non consultant)- particularly in the context of enterprise products in the financial sector? Thanks in advance, Andre arobot@cmg.fcnbd.com -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cvbuskirk@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Mozilla: License change in the works... Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:38:50 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78t68o$638$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36AFD10B.6C6B081C@netscape.com> > Current status of the Rhapsody port: Interest has tapered off > considerably and I know of no active development effort at this time. > Per my previous posts What did you expect from the yellow box/NeXT community. They talk a good game, but fail to produce. Thank goodness for carbon. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:37:00 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <78t9ls$l6c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ricsha@rainlore.demon.co.uk In <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> Ric wrote: > On 28 Jan 1999 22:19:05 GMT, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com > wrote: > > >In <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> Rex Riley wrote: > > >cultural.. Bull... I'll tell you if SGI get's linux with fully blown OpenGL hardware > >accelleration going on their VW's they will have some very nice choices to > >offer customers. > > > >> Apple is in the business of mfg desires for machines that people don't know > >> they want. > > > >Apple and business - Seems like oil and water to me. > > Certainly sounds like an oxymoron. > > >> Linux steals Apple's core competency "desire". > > > >Linux is here and is moving up solidly in the world. It was only a matter of > >time before a couple of companies put LInux on their product sheets. As > >I see it SGI and HP will help accellerate the momentum of it. I can also think > >of some other projects that might help dramatically. Linux is on track to be > >the number 1 OS by 2020-2025 as I predicted. > > ROFL! > > It is *most unlikely* that *any* current OS will still be around in > any shape or form in 20 yrs' time! The kind of changes ahead in > computing/computing hardware are of an even more radical nature than > those of the last 25 years. Within the next 25 years, computing will > almost certainly move to hybrid computer/transputer models based on > quantum technology, and quite conceivably may even be moving fast > towards organic technology. Any current OS will be more obsolete than > CP/M is today. > > And incidentally, Linux is hardly the "be-all-and-end-all" of OSs. > Then let me qualify. My prediction is that a Opensource OS will be the dominant one in 20-25 years.. I doubt there wil be any huge changes in OS technology. As to hardware we are nearing theoretical limits on miniturization. Quantum effects will be more important - and hence will be harder to incorporate and deal with.. I have done a lot of quantum chemistry simulation work and getting miniturization down to the atomic level (meaning transistors on the order of 10-100Angstroms will be mighty difficult). I suspect the next level of technological breakthrough will be in optical central processors - which generally are designed to be highly parallel and run at much higher frequencies.. It will take at least 20-25 years before we have anything like cpu units with atomic sized transistors.. BTW: Unix has been around for 20-25 years or more. Transputer?? Really. Don't count on it.. Eventually parallel systems will be constructed but not anything like transputer technology.. The problems with keeping caches and memory maps sync'd were terrible. Look at where Cray, SGI, and IBM are going with multiple cpus. As to 'organic' computers - don't count on it. If you've read any of the papers on what is going on in this field you'd know that most of the applications for organic computers are in sampling gigantic spaces - as in decryption technology.. There is one main problem with getting your answer btw - and that is in seperating the goo left over and finding what is your solution in the goop which exists typically as a very tiny fraction in your solution.. I think you are overly optimistic in your predictions.. Look at where we have gotten in the past 60 years only after the transistor was invented.. It took 15-20 years before we had fully transistorized computers on something of a scale that was remotely accessible to large businesses.. And the only solid breakthough I've seen is in optical computing technology - and the limitations there are the fact that they are highly parallel - and don't work on sequential types of problems well. Say solving non-linear equations which occupy much of the field of simulation and computation at this point.. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: agave_@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:26:01 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78t90s$8l1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36af8920.0@news.depaul.edu> <B2D4E36E-8C3AE@206.165.43.79> <SCOTT.99Jan27174330@slave.doubleu.com> <78qje3$trf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <SCOTT.99Jan28164016@slave.doubleu.com> In article <SCOTT.99Jan28164016@slave.doubleu.com>, scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: > In article <78qje3$trf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > agave_@hotmail.com writes: > > Even that's giving too much. Describing the drawing engine as > "Display PDF" is inaccurate. It is a new display engine that uses > the Postscript imaging model. > <snip> > How you interact with the server will be the main point of > change. > > If that is _really_ the case, then their describing it as something > PDF-based is disingenuous, to say the least. I've taken the various > PDF-based references to mean that it's using the PDF imaging model, > which is a subset of Postscript imaging model. > I found those references I was looking for, the most relevent being: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=413244838&CONTEXT=917644826.506003693&hit num=9 Mike Paquette wrote: "By the way, we're not doing 'Display PDF'. We're doing a graphics system that supports the PostScript imaging model (NOT language, IMAGING MODEL), and will support PDF as a document exchange format. ('A' document exchange format, not the sole format.)" http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=414612361&CONTEXT=917644826.506003693&hitnum=4 http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=353751741&CONTEXT=917554249.302645250&hitnum=0 -- Ian P. Cardenas BLaCKSMITH, inc. Software Engineer -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: simski@dds.nl (simon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=F8=60=E1=2E=FC=FC=2E=E1=AB=F8=60=E1=2E=FC=FC?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=2E=E1=AB=F8=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=60=E1=2E=FC=FC=2E=E1=AB=F8=60=E1=2E=FC=FC=2E=E1=AB=F8=60?= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:38:55 +0100 Organization: misschien ooit nog eens. Sender: hanuman@dc2-modem156.dial.xs4all.nl Message-ID: <1dmf1a6.1w2wfnpflz6awN@dc2-modem156.dial.xs4all.nl> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <m2vhhs9sn1.fsf@sophia.axel.nom> <78of4u$1ts$1@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78oorg$74m$1@remarQ.com> <36AFF23B.2C1E2195@altavista.com> <scanman@altavista.com> wrote: > Well your math proves it...Intel machines must be better or faster, or > maybe, JUST CHEEPER...Scanman > or 1.you ask more money for stuff everybody needs, well not everybody of course ;-) 2. make shure that everybody pays at least once a year for things they don't need, but cannot do without, because they don't want to be incompatible. wrong way: 1. Use a computer aged 7 with the original systemsoftware for the machine. 2. work on it without the urge to use the latest software, knowing that new versions don't mean 'better'. -- Groeten van Simon. 'Ok, dus een keer klikken is deur open en twee keer klikken dicht...' meel terug naar: simski_dds.nl (_ = @)
From: znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:39:05 -0500 Organization: Disorganized Message-ID: <znu-2901991739050001@ppp-7.ts-12.nyc.idt.net> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> In article <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com>, jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: [snip] > Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? by cookies, > by ethernet address, tcp/ip adress, by hard disk checksum, by what else? > > Intel was only unique in that a) it was broadcast over the internet, Um... being broadcast over the internet is not just some minor point here... > b)they had a random number generator run by the heat of their CPUs! Really? That's kinda cool :-) -- I feel as much like I did yesterday as I do today znu <at> idt <dot> net
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Mozilla: License change in the works... Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:08:16 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78tf0q$e7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36AFD10B.6C6B081C@netscape.com> <78t68o$638$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> cvbuskirk@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > Current status of the Rhapsody port: Interest has tapered off > > considerably and I know of no active development effort at this time. > > Per my previous posts > > What did you expect from the yellow box/NeXT community. They talk a good > game, but fail to produce. Thank goodness for carbon. You, sir, don't know what you're talking about. Go to http://www.stepwise.com/Software/index.html and check who has been writing, and making available, freeware and beta YB apps. Compare the number of companies and/or individuals named there who had previously been NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP developers to those who had not. Check the homepages of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP veterans like Stone Design (www.stone.com), Omni (www.omnigroup.com), P&L Systems (www.plsys.co.uk), or BLaCKSMITH (www.blacksmith.com) and see what they're offering. Then come back and talk. I certainly won't argue that the _absolute_ number of such apps isn't low. But this is not surprising, given the way that past NeXT and Apple behavior has decimated the ranks of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody developers. Indeed, in light of the way they've been treated, what is surprising is that there are any such developers still around, and that they are in fact delivering YB apps -- or trying to deliver them, should Apple ever deign to release an OS their apps can run on. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, apparently condemned by Apple to remain a reluctant Windows NT user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Steve and Avi have dropped out of School! Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:10:15 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78tf4g$ea7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net> <hugh-280119991607550263@57.minneapolis-05-10rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <Y47s2.65$W32.437428@news.bctel.net> <hugh-290119991314321366@108.minneapolis-16-17rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: > Steve was supposed to make his mind up by the end of January. He was > supposed to become permanent CEO or find someone else. That's what he > said, although I can't recall when or where, he said he'd given himself > through January '99 to just be interim boss. If there's no word on this > this weekend, I take that as a bad sign. Didn't he make a big fuss about accepting the designation "iCEO" during his MCWSF keynote? I take that as the announcement that he's staying pretty much permanently. Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, apparently condemned by Apple to remain a reluctant Windows NT user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:26:44 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:26:44 GMT gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote: > So, why didn't Apple move on to some other implementation of DPS, say > a GNU one? They do use gcc too, after all. I think that Ghostscript has a different license from Aladdin that prohibits commercial use. Therefore, they can't use it in that system due to the same problems as Adobe: license. Thus they're better off writing their own instead of trying to hitch their cart to someone else's horse. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:49:54 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <78thf2$qu2$2@news.xmission.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <78sckh$dd8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:49:54 GMT malcolm@plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com>, > don@misckit.com wrote: > > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > > I've asked this before - can anyone purchase Openstep 4.2 from > > > Apple have they ever been able to purchase 4.2 (and I'm not > > > talking Prelude to Rhapsody). > > > > I don't know about in the past, but right now you cannot buy 4.2 > > from them for any price. If you try, you'll waste a lot of effort > > for nothing. > > Umm, odd, since by coincidence we've just been sent a quote for > OPENSTEP 4.2 which we need for a customer... I know an individual who got the quote, the order numbers, everything. Just like you. He sent in the order and got back a note from Apple saying "Oh, sorry, we no longer sell that due to the expiration of a third party license". I have _yet_ to see a _documented_ case of OPENSTEP 4.2 being sold by Apple to anyone in the past three months...and maybe longer back than that. I honestly don't think they'll do it any more given what I've been told by people who have tried to buy it, much as I may wish I'm wrong about all this. Until you have it in your hands, though, it isn't documented. As the story above demonstrates, until you have it on your desk, you don't have it, order numbers be damned. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: paco@unicron.naweb.com (Paco Irons) Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <znu-2901991739050001@ppp-7.ts-12.nyc.idt.net> Message-ID: <1kts2.83$2k5.1054@news5.ispnews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:33:49 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 01:33:49 GMT znu (znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net) wrote: : In article : <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com>, : jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: : [snip] : > Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? by cookies, : > by ethernet address, tcp/ip adress, by hard disk checksum, by what else? : > : > Intel was only unique in that a) it was broadcast over the internet, : Um... being broadcast over the internet is not just some minor point here... Actually, it is. A CPUID is never broadcast over the Internet. Your IP address is broadcast. The issue in question is a random number generator, a hardware cookie.
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Steve and Avi have dropped out of School! Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:13:42 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-290119991314321366@108.minneapolis-16-17rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net> <hugh-280119991607550263@57.minneapolis-05-10rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <Y47s2.65$W32.437428@news.bctel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 Steve was supposed to make his mind up by the end of January. He was supposed to become permanent CEO or find someone else. That's what he said, although I can't recall when or where, he said he'd given himself through January '99 to just be interim boss. If there's no word on this this weekend, I take that as a bad sign. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Roy" <roy@nospam.com> Newsgroups: netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <36AFD10B.6C6B081C@netscape.com> <78t68o$638$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78tf0q$e7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Mozilla: License change in the works... Message-ID: <uSts2.4731$NQ.4963@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:10:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:10:34 PDT Organization: @Home Network spagiola@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <78tf0q$e7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... >cvbuskirk@my-dejanews.com wrote: >> > Current status of the Rhapsody port: Interest has tapered off >> > considerably and I know of no active development effort at this time. >> > Per my previous posts >> >> What did you expect from the yellow box/NeXT community. They talk a good >> game, but fail to produce. Thank goodness for carbon. > >You, sir, don't know what you're talking about. > >I certainly won't argue that the _absolute_ number of such apps isn't low. But >this is not surprising, given the way that past NeXT and Apple behavior has >decimated the ranks of NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody developers. > Ah...BS!!!! Where were all the big software announcements when it looked like NeXT would enter the big time? Why would the ranks leave if their base was to improve? Where did they go? Windows? Fact is, the yellow box will be on a million+ desktops as of next year, with a differing interface. It will be availible in java and obj-c, but I'm sure you know about this. Mozilla/rhapsody project is an utter failure. The BeOS team is on the heels of windows. This could be a big reason why carbon will keep apple breathing. No support for yellow. Period........Flames on!!!
From: simski@dds.nl (simon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:38:53 +0100 Organization: misschien ooit nog eens. Sender: hanuman@dc2-modem156.dial.xs4all.nl Message-ID: <1dmf0z2.1957o1n1c99l5rN@dc2-modem156.dial.xs4all.nl> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <rbarris-2501991754260001@192.168.1.16> Rob Barris <rbarris@quicksilver.com> wrote: > > Well "macncrap" has set the record straight. Thanks so much. > > While you're at it, don't leave out the $100M patent infringement money > that Gates also graciously bestowed on Apple. ^^^^^^^^^^ should I give him a blowjob for that? Hell no! -- Groeten van Simon. 'Ok, dus een keer klikken is deur open en twee keer klikken dicht...' meel terug naar: simski_dds.nl (_ = @)
Message-ID: <36B2878F.C3F20896@ne.mediaone.net> From: Monty Brandenberg <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net> Organization: MCB, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <78t9ls$l6c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:16:15 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:15:57 EDT spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > Then let me qualify. My prediction is that a Opensource OS will be the dominant > one in 20-25 years.. I doubt there wil be any huge changes in OS technology. > For the sake of argument, I'll offer a differing prediction. That with the poor quality and reliability of OS and application products (Apple and MS equally guilty here) and experience with Y2K and related problems the legal treatment of software will change. Instead of being held as a work of art and literature, legislative and judicial changes will begin to treat it as a manufactured object with implied warranty and merchantability tests and a requirement to demonstrate sound engineering practice. Neither the current commercial offerings from Apple and Microsoft nor the open source products will meet this standard. -- Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant MCB, Inc. mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net P.O. Box 426188 mcbinc@world.std.com Cambridge, MA 02142 617.864.6907
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Message-ID: <adtF6Ct45.JHD@netcom.com> Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Organization: ICGNetcom References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <36b16ff7.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:45:40 GMT Sender: adt@netcom13.netcom.com Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote: : Josh Lewis <jslewis@erols.com> wrote: : > by ethernet address, : : Useless unless there's an ethernet adaptor. Is there a PowerMac that does not have builtin ethernet? Some of the laptops I suppose, but I recall built-in ethernet in desktops and towers going back far into the 68K era. Tony -- ------------------ Tony Tribelli adtribelli@acm.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Message-ID: <adtF6CtCt.Jot@netcom.com> Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Organization: ICGNetcom References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <znu-2901991739050001@ppp-7.ts-12.nyc.idt.net> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:50:53 GMT Sender: adt@netcom13.netcom.com znu (znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net) wrote: : jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: : > Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? by cookies, : > by ethernet address, tcp/ip adress, by hard disk checksum, by what else? : > : > Intel was only unique in that a) it was broadcast over the internet, : : Um... being broadcast over the internet is not just some minor point here... But it is a misunderstood point. Isn't software not the CPU doing the broadcast? If so there is the capability to recognize individual machines today, no PentiumIII required. I can't help but wonder if all that we have is engineering or manufacturing putting a readable serial number on the CPU, and someone in marketting spinning all the security BS out of that. And having it badly backfire. Tony -- ------------------ Tony Tribelli adtribelli@acm.org
From: fred farmer <ffm@farmerville.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Just say 666! Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:17:07 -0800 Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C Message-ID: <36B287C2.24554718@farmerville.org> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why don't the Nazis who think this shit up just get laid? They just won't be happy until the NSA has a live video feed of everybody at a keyboard. Every sixty seconds a voice comes on and says "Please re-scan retina in the biometric 2000 for continued access. You have five seconds." In a related article, Intel denies any ID tracker ties with an unspecified software giant's vigorous anti-piracy efforts.... However free forehead tattoos of your Processor's ID are being offered in Santa Clara; the grand prize winner gets it encoded on his CA driver's license mag. stripe. 666! 666! 666! Sieg Heil!!! Sieg Heil!!! Sieg Heil!!! Eric A. Dubiel wrote: > Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... > > Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging > privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html > > Big Brother Inside.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <78t9ls$l6c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: <n8ws2.1801$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:46:11 CDT Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:46:11 GMT On 29 Jan 1999 21:37:00 GMT, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com <spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote: >I have done a lot of quantum chemistry simulation work and getting >miniturization down to the atomic level (meaning transistors on the >order of 10-100Angstroms will be mighty difficult). I suspect the next >level of technological breakthrough will be in optical central >processors - which generally are designed to be highly parallel and run >at much higher frequencies.. Note that Crichton's book, Congo (independent of the pretty horrible movie based on this somewhat-questionable-book) had, as its premise, a good dozen years ago, that "optically perfect diamonds" would be of critical value so as to allow "light-based computers" to be constructed. (The movie alludes to this, but is devoid of useful commentary; the desire for the diamonds is no more than an abstract McGuffin...) I note this to illustrate that this has been in mainstream literature for *rather* a long time. There was a fair bit of talk 10 years ago about "light-based" being just around the corner. At the time, my guesstimate was that "productionization" of it was at least ten years away. On the order of ten years have passed, and I have to assess it as still being at least ten years away. And since there is little evidence that anyone is working on deploying the technology, it really has to be left as an "indefinitely postponed" technology. There need to be a lot of activities, and *many* billions in investments by the Intels and TIs of the world in order to have new "chip foundries," as well as the materials folks deploying substantially new sorts of connectors (e.g. - light-based equivalents to wiring; this isn't as simple as "just" deploying fibre optics). I'm not certain of all the activities that would go on a Pert/CPM chart, but I know there will be a bunch, and if they're happening, then there are some *big* secret projects out there. Maybe that's why Motorola had losses this year, but I seriously doubt it... >It will take at least 20-25 years before we have anything like cpu units with atomic >sized transistors.. >BTW: Unix has been around for 20-25 years or more. Transputer?? >Really. Don't count on it.. Eventually parallel systems will be >constructed but not anything like transputer technology.. The problems >with keeping caches and memory maps sync'd were terrible. It was a cool idea, but unfortunately, it's kind of like a "working communism," in that it requires reprogramming the people. Making transputers do interesting things pretty much required Occam, which pretty much required new programmers. (Actually, I wonder if there's any Occam-related code out there that could provide Linux folk with the ability to fiddle with multiprogramming... >Look at where Cray, SGI, and IBM are going with multiple cpus. SMP is useful for some things, so long as you get to redesign your application and your programmers. And there are different kinds of "clustering" that require different programming techniques, each quite different in its characteristics. There's not one multiprocessing answer. (That seems to be a given, in some punny ways to boot...) -- "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place." - Douglas Adams in Guardian, 25-Aug-95 cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Mozilla: License change in the works... References: <36AFD10B.6C6B081C@netscape.com> <78t68o$638$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <o8ws2.1802$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:46:12 CDT Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:46:12 GMT On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:38:50 GMT, cvbuskirk@my-dejanews.com <cvbuskirk@my-dejanews.com> wrote: >> Current status of the Rhapsody port: Interest has tapered off >> considerably and I know of no active development effort at this time. >> Per my previous posts > >What did you expect from the yellow box/NeXT community. They talk a good >game, but fail to produce. Thank goodness for carbon. It obviously makes sense for them to put a *lot* of effort into producing software for an OS that Apple hasn't actually deployed and whose definition keeps morphing. Not. -- "Problem solving under linux has never been the circus that it is under AIX." (By Pete Ehlke in comp.unix.aix) cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <78rg2g$qg1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Message-ID: <V7ws2.1789$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:45:41 CDT Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:45:41 GMT On 29 Jan 1999 05:13:52 GMT, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >That does assume that we are still on the steep part of the technology >curve. Planes, trains, and automobiles all went through periods of rapid >change, followed by a longer period of slow evolution. > >It is _possible_ that we are past the steep part of OS change. 'Modern' >OS kernals are more alike than they are different, and a lot of people are >standardizing on twenty to thirty year old designs. If you look at the OS research papers out there, the research systems, from which innovations are likely to come, can be characterized largely as UNIX variants that assortedly: a) Head in microkernelled directions, b) Head in exokernelled directions, c) Add in things that assortedly look like "improved JVM support" (which others might interpret as "adding some stuff that Lisp machines used to have) d) Try to push an ORB into the kernel. If the security problems can be resolved, we might see more "agent-based" computing happening in the future. Since existing OSes are quite capable of running this sort of thing as part of a process/task, it is not obvious that OS enhancement is needed. -- The nice thing about Windows is - It does not just crash, it displays a dialog box and lets you press 'OK' first. (Arno Schaefer's .sig) cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/oses.html>
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <78rkma$g6e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Message-ID: <W7ws2.1790$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:45:42 CDT Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:45:42 GMT On 29 Jan 1999 06:32:42 GMT, Hosun Sacreligious Lee <holee@primenet.com> wrote: >Josh Lewis <jslewis@erols.com> writes: >: Yes but who can trust EETimes after ther stupid fuss over a lousy $1 per >: port licencing for firewire? > >I think the furor was the fact that Apple decided to charge this fee >after the fact. A nicer time would have been say, a year or so ago. Before >everyone started like firewire. > >I mean, if you have a replicator that costs say, $15 with five ports, >that'll go to $20 right there. For one device, maybe that still doesn't >seem noticeable. Multiply it by a couple of hundred thousand and you can >see why manufacturers are having second thought. At Seagate, $1 per disk drive isn't *remarkably* onerous. The bigger problem is if you're a manufacturer making Firewire support chips. If you do a good job, the cost might be less than a buck apiece. A $1/port price may more than double the cost of your product. -- The nice thing about Windows is - It does not just crash, it displays a dialog box and lets you press 'OK' first. (Arno Schaefer's .sig) cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
From: "Eric Blair" <chekov00@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?B?2GCFLr29LoWl2GCFLr29LoWl2GAgSGFwcHkgMTV0aCBC?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?aXJ0aGRheSAtIE1hY2ludG9zaCEgYIUuvb0uhaXYYIUuvb0uhaXY?= ` Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:18:50 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash >> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft >> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around >> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one >> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved >> many companies since HP started the tradition. > > Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, > which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide > you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses > that are foreseen or expected. > > For example, if you're being sued, you can create a reserve to cover > reasonable anticipated legal expenses and penalties. You can NOT set up a > reserve just in case you have a bad year. > > Interestingly, MS is now in trouble for doing just that. > > -- > Regards, > > Joe Ragosta > joe.ragosta@dol.net Who the hell cares if it's Illegal, this is a free-market economy, the Government shouldn't be sticking their nose where it doesn't belong (big business). When they do, it ceases to be capitalism, and takes on more of a socialistic light. --Eric
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Mozilla: License change in the works... Message-ID: <tbrown-2901992327530001@d127.ecr.net> References: <36AFD10B.6C6B081C@netscape.com> <78t68o$638$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78tf0q$e7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <uSts2.4731$NQ.4963@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:27:53 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:28:32 CDT In article <uSts2.4731$NQ.4963@news.rdc1.nj.home.com>, "Roy" <roy@nospam.com> wrote: >Mozilla/rhapsody project is an utter failure. The BeOS team is on the heels >of windows. This could be a big reason why carbon will keep apple >breathing. >No support for yellow. > >Period........Flames on!!! One of the things that I _wanted_ to do with OS X server, was to see if I could contribute to Yellow Mozilla. I'm not sure if I could have made any significant contribution, but I was willing to make the attempt. I just can't justify the cost of OSXS, so I won't know what I could add. Since I'm more than a little rusty, it's probably no big loss. In order for Apple to 'get support for Yellow', they have to be willing to get it out to people who want it. Existing mac developers have their own priorities, and justly so, it's Carbon. OpenStep developers are quite willing to help out, but at this point, they have to be looking to keep food on the table since they've been strung out for so long (you'll make it next year doesn't allow you to eat today). If they are working with OpenStep, they already have projects to complete. This is different from the profile of the BeOS user/developer. They paid a very low cost to get the OS + dev tools, and are doing so because they have the time to spend upon it. Apple's arranged it so that the hobbiest programmer doesn't have access to Yellow tools, and hence, you don't have bunches of support for Yellow. You can't lay this on the feet of the OpenStep community, esp since they do create original open source work as well. So, in order for Apple to "get support from yellow", they have to be willing to let it out so that it can generate some. The old, 'chicken and egg' problem. Apple might have reasons for doing what they are doing (like Adobe just won't cut _any_ slack on DPS, so they can't offer OSXS for less than they are), but the effect is the same. Since there are hints that the OSXS line will continue after OSX, Apple could let OSXS out with the new kernel and QDe before the release of OSX. If they do so, they have the opportuntiy to have a widespread beta of the new blue box and Carbon and generate some fresh interest in Yellow. If they can do this 3-6 months before OS X ships, then Yellow will have a chance to deliver before OS X ships. Not from me though, OS X won't support my Mac, so my barrier to entry will still be too high. I'll have to see what's going on, _after_ OS X ships and I play with it in the store to see if it's worth buying a new machine. -- tbrown@netset.com
Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <36aeaa5d$0$16685@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79> <36b1644a$0$16678@nntp1.ba.best.com> <hugh-290119991304184428@108.minneapolis-16-17rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> In-Reply-To: <hugh-290119991304184428@108.minneapolis-16-17rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) Date: 30 Jan 1999 05:51:48 GMT Message-ID: <36b29df4$0$16673@nntp1.ba.best.com> On 01/29/99, Hugh Johnson wrote: >In article <36b1644a$0$16678@nntp1.ba.best.com>, >kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote: > >> >> Except that in the second case, assuming you are using C++ syntax for a >> reason, you can write a subclass of GXShape. Correct me if I'm wrong, >> but programmers can't add new shape classes to GX, right? >> > > >Create an abstract base class that contains all the necessary data >structures, and incorporates relay methods to all the pseudo-methods of >the system object in question. In the same header, include a macro to >use in all derived constructors, using enums for the different dispatch >values. Derive simple subclasses with different private enums to effect >polymorphic construction and behavior. _Voila!_ - you've got yourself a >perfect mimic of the hidden system object. You can derive further >objects to your heart's content, treat it as 100% pure OOP if you want. Okay, from what I can tell that gives the programmer a subclass of the GX shape, right? But, how does your solution make GX deal with your new kind of shape? I guess maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but it seems like you can't teach GX how to render some new kind of primitive that it doesn't already internally have code for. -Ken -- Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kcd@3dfx.com (work) Sr. Software Engineer, Cross Platform Development, 3Dfx Interactive C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> Message-ID: <T7ws2.1788$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:45:39 CDT Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:45:39 GMT On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:10:51 GMT, Gerben Wierda <gerben@Spike.rna.nl> wrote: >So, why didn't Apple move on to some other implementation of DPS, say a GNU >one? They do use gcc too, after all. The rumor I heard was that licensing a non-GNU version of Ghostscript (e.g. from Aladdin) would be rather expensive. -- The nice thing about Windows is - It does not just crash, it displays a dialog box and lets you press 'OK' first. (Arno Schaefer's .sig) cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/printing.html>
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 30 Jan 1999 10:02:46 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Berlin, Deutschland Message-ID: <78ulc6$e7o$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jan 1999 10:02:46 GMT don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes: >gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote: >> So, why didn't Apple move on to some other implementation of DPS, say >> a GNU one? They do use gcc too, after all. >I think that Ghostscript has a different license from Aladdin that prohibits >commercial use. Therefore, they can't use it in that system due to the same >problems as Adobe: license. Exactly. Also, anyone who's looked more closely at the Ghostscript code base can probably guess why Apple wouldn't be too thrilled with it. It is known to be fairly incompatible with the Adobe interpreters. Once you're out of the '100% compatible because it is the same interpreter' league, DPS makes a lot less sense. Anyway, it looks like Apple approached nearly all the Postscript vendors wrt licensing, but apparently the terms were such that all of them declined. (from a post in comp.lang.postscript by a person who works for a Postscript vendor). Marcel -- Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones. Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS. - Alan Kay -
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Steve and Avi have dropped out of School! Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Jan29082528@slave.doubleu.com> References: <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net> <hugh-280119991607550263@57.minneapolis-05-10rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <Y47s2.65$W32.437428@news.bctel.net> In-reply-to: henryb@aol.com's message of Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:15:37 GMT Date: 29 Jan 99 08:25:28 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 01:59:48 PDT In article <Y47s2.65$W32.437428@news.bctel.net>, henryb@aol.com (Henry) writes: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> wrote: >[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see > the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]] > >In article <G%3s2.39$W32.326525@news.bctel.net>, > henryb@aol.com (Henry) wrote: >> ....yes....they have quit to go work for the local amusement park..... > >What does this mean? Did he finally take the 'i' out of "iCEO"? >Where did you read this? Apple is the amusement park .....NeXT was the quest for greatness........ it was downhill after 3.3..... I think... you need... to write somewhat ... more comprehensibly... because...... you're posting... provacative speculation without.... backing it up... with anything remotely insightful... -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 30 Jan 1999 14:35:05 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-300119990835575277@125.minneapolis-18-19rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <36aeaa5d$0$16685@nntp1.ba.best.com> <B2D50B4B-122180@206.165.43.79> <36b1644a$0$16678@nntp1.ba.best.com> <hugh-290119991304184428@108.minneapolis-16-17rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> <36b29df4$0$16673@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <36b29df4$0$16673@nntp1.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote: > > Okay, from what I can tell that gives the programmer a subclass of the > GX shape, right? But, how does your solution make GX deal with your > new kind of shape? I guess maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but > it seems like you can't teach GX how to render some new kind of > primitive that it doesn't already internally have code for. > Well, whenever the toolbox gives you that sort of capability, it always asks for the address of a callback routine, or a predefined struct with multiple callback addresses (an ad hoc "class pointer", in other words). You can always cobble something together with friend functions or static methods, neither of which take an implicit 'this' pointer so the parameter list isn't messed up, and there's always a way to sneak your true 'this' into the functions, usually through a refcon. Disclaimor: I know nothing about GX, so I don't know if this actually applies. I thought perhaps you only wanted to derive complex shapes from groups of GX primitives, not actually define new primitives. It is quite possible that Apple keeps the black box closed tight because all possible primitives are already defined (look up "geoeme" in a good dictionary). If that's the case, you just need to think harder about the problem, to construct your new shape from multiple primitives. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:55:25 -0500 Organization: (none) Message-ID: <78urtq$vgv$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <znu-2901991739050001@ppp-7.ts-12.nyc.idt.net> <1kts2.83$2k5.1054@news5.ispnews.com> Paco Irons wrote in message <1kts2.83$2k5.1054@news5.ispnews.com>... >znu (znu@_NOSPAM_idt.net) wrote: >: In article >: <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com>, >: jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: > >: [snip] > >: > Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? by cookies, >: > by ethernet address, tcp/ip adress, by hard disk checksum, by what else? >: > >: > Intel was only unique in that a) it was broadcast over the internet, > >: Um... being broadcast over the internet is not just some minor point here... > >Actually, it is. A CPUID is never broadcast over the Internet. Your IP >address is broadcast. The issue in question is a random number generator, >a hardware cookie. Also, as long as we're talking about a technological issue here, let's try to be clear on the terminology we're using. In network terms, "broadcast" means "sent to a large number of destinations at the same time". The Intel technology sends the response (a function of your CPUID and of the random number the server sent you) back to the server you were talking to anyway. That's probably what you meant by "broadcast", but I thought I'd break in early, before all the network types think you meant the other definition. John Saunders jws@jws.ultranet.com <mailto:jws@jws.ultranet.com> [ See "21st Century and the Third Millenium at http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/faq2.html ] [ Any opinions expressed are not those of my employer ]
From: "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:56:27 -0500 Organization: (none) Message-ID: <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> Thingfishhhh wrote in message ... >In article <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, Hosun Sacreligious Lee ><holee@primenet.com> wrote: > >> H.W. Stockman <hwstock@wizard.com> writes: >> : David T. Wang wrote: >> >> : > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says >> : > >> : > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 >> : > >> : > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to develope >> : > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. > >This smacks more of the marketing weasels than anything else - who else >would benfit more from the technology, besides law enforcement and the >government? > >A bona-fide way of tracking people across the web? One that is not as >obvious as cookies and such? Excuse me for asking, but did you read the EE Times article? The Intel technology does not transmit the chips ID across the Internet. What happens is that the web server sends a random number to the client (presumably generated based on the servers chip ID). The client runs software which performs a function on the random number and the clients chip ID. It then sends the result back to the server. From then on, when that particular server wants to verify if you're the same client, it will send the same random number it did the first time, and it will expect the same result it got the first time. Different servers will start with different random numbers (from a different ID base), and will therefore not get the same number back from the same client. Now, that's where some of the problems come in. What if the servers are clustered or mirrored, where you may be talking to a different server each time you talk to the same web site? Each would have its own ID number, unless this technology has a way to set several servers to the same ID number. What happens when I upgrade my PC or use a different PC? In that case, I'm a different person as far as this technology is concerned. I'm going to have to look into this in more detail. I'd hate to think Intel hadn't thought it through. John Saunders jws@jws.ultranet.com <mailto:jws@jws.ultranet.com> [ See "21st Century and the Third Millenium at http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/faq2.html ] [ Any opinions expressed are not those of my employer ]
Message-ID: <36B3395F.510B7F63@home.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari=AE?= <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: hey Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:55:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:55:37 PDT
From: simski@dds.nl (simon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=D8=60=85=2E=BD=BD=2E=85=A5=D8=60=85=2E=BD=BD?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=2E=85=A5=D8=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=60=85=2E=BD=BD=2E=85=A5=D8=60=85=2E=BD=BD=2E=85=A5=D8?= ` Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:32:46 +0100 Organization: misschien ooit nog eens. Sender: hanuman@dc2-modem262.dial.xs4all.nl Message-ID: <1dmghth.1c74mqvozyzdaN@dc2-modem262.dial.xs4all.nl> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> w=B6(4veBwf5SyfC60stDLUbEEnXPxK}H1cD)9|v'3L9aHk6 Eric Blair <chekov00@earthlink.net> wrote: > Who the hell cares if it's Illegal, this is a free-market economy, the > Government shouldn't be sticking their nose where it doesn't belong (big > business). When they do, it ceases to be capitalism, and takes on more of a > socialistic light. i love socializm! ;-) Thats why I live in europe and don't dare to go to the states. -- Groeten van Simon. 'Ok, dus een keer klikken is deur open en twee keer klikken dicht...' meel terug naar: simski_dds.nl (_ = @)
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Eric Blair's defense of Microsoft (previous subject line garbled) Date: 30 Jan 1999 13:05:59 -0500 Organization: Quick and Associates Message-ID: <78vhm7$7ll@papoose.quick.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> In article <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Eric Blair <chekov00@earthlink.net> wrote: (munch discussion of MS's illegal reserve manipulation) >Who the hell cares if it's Illegal, this is a free-market economy, the >Government shouldn't be sticking their nose where it doesn't belong (big >business). When they do, it ceases to be capitalism, and takes on more of a >socialistic light. You declare that the government should have no right to regulate big business, and imply such intervention is incompatible with the operation of free-market economies in particular and with capitalism in general. Your statements show a profound ignorance af the fundamental definitions of both free markets, and capitalism. Both historically, and theoretically, the interests of big business have been in disagreement with those of both the majority of the individual members of society and the interests of either states or economic markets as a whole. This is neither good nor bad, it is merely a statement of fact. That you equate the interests of big business with those of free markets is at best naive. 223 years ago, Adam Smith, in "The Wealth of Nations", clearly identified the fundamental elements of economic theory. This is unarguably the first and most oft cited reference on free markets. Despite its age, this work is still consistent with both the observed behavior of real economic systems, and with current theoretical treatments of free markets. At the conclusion of Chapter XI in book 1 "On the rent of Land", Smith discusses the self-interests of those who subsist on income derived from profit as opposed to those who derive their wealth from wages or rents, (N.B. in the quote to follow, 'his' refers to a country gentleman). Smith wrote: It is by this superior knowledge of their own interest that they have frequently imposed upon his generosity, and persuaded him to give up both his own interest and that of the public, from a very simple but honest conviction, that their interest, and not his, was the interest of the public. The interest of the dealers, however, in any particular branch of trade or manufacture, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public. To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always in the interest of the dealers. To widen the market may frequently be agreeable enough to the interest of the public; but to narrow the competition must always be against it, and can serve only to enable the dealers, by raising their profits above what they naturally would be, to levy, for their own benefit, an absurd tax upon their fellow-citizens. The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it. (Though not relevent to this discussion, this passage is also quite interesting in the light of current flaws in our own systems of campaign finance and lobbying) Understanding of both economic theory, and social/political theory must first be grounded in a clear understanding of human nature. Enlightened self-interest seems the only rational foundation for either, un-enlightened self interest is, unfortunately, the most common underpinning of both. The successful design of a truly free capital marketplace or political system must account for this fact. In this case I define enlightenment in the simplest terms possible: an ethical, yet fundamentally selfish, rationality. (e.g. Kantian ethics - how would my selfish interest be advanced if everyone were to behave as I do?) Most naive interpretations of either political or economic systems ignore this reality, the fact that human desire is rarely appropriately balanced by ethical concerns. Freedom, in any endeaver requires that rational behavior be unhindered whenever possible. It also implies a duty that one's own behavior be consistent with the need to preserve the freedoms of others. All free system must therefore recognize the need for balances of power. Without checks to restrain the abuses of those who abridge the freedoms due to others, no free system can remain in balance, and thereby remain free. Even the most extreme libertarian, if honest, must admit to the need for market oversight. Disagreements over the respective roles of private vs. public responsibilities, and the scope of intrusion into private matters may mask this requirement in some rhetoric, but it is still there. In American society the federal government has assumed rights over the regulation of business. One might argue over the correctness of this particular role, since other free-market systems are possible under different apportionments of this responsibility. Any dispute over how, and by whom, this power is wielded is irrelevant to the fundamental question of whether or not this power is a requirement of a free system. A free market economy, by definition, requires the free exchange of capital assets. The actions which Microsoft is charged with in this particular case - the use of a "cookie jar" reserve policy - were deliberate attempts to keep its underlying economic activity from appearing correctly in its balance sheet. This prevented a fair valuation of its stock, which is the most essential element in a free capital market. The fact that these charges were raised by a senior internal auditor who was not only ordered to destroy documents pertaining to these activities but was fired for failing to comply is another issue entirely. Your emphatic claim that such behavior should be protected because "this is a free-market economy" is thus ludicrously incorrect. It is fundamental to the free market that punishment be warrented. Your other claim is that through exercising restraint, our system "ceases to be capitalism, and takes on more of a socialistic light." Again, you are far from the mark. The essential goal of capitalism is to provide an environment in which the mutually interdependant yet fundamentally different economic elements of wages, rents, and profits, result in the maximum productive benefit to society. The very activity you decry, restraint of economic behavior, is a necessary component of any efficient capitalistic system. You insisted (as have many others) that Microsoft's actions should be protected from interference in order to preserve the integrity of both a free market economy and capitalism. In this case, as in the broader cases of the DOJ antitrust case and Sun's litigation, the opposite of your thesis is closer to the truth. A free capital market must, by definition, provide mechanisms to prevent many of Microsoft's tactics. Defending them under the guise of protecting free markets is unjustifiable. Sorry for the rant, really, but lately, I've heard more vapid, naive, and self-contradictory statements than I can stand. This was just one of many straws. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. ) |
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:10:14 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <78vhu1$3lq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <36b16ff7.0@news.depaul.edu> <adtF6Ct45.JHD@netcom.com> In article <adtF6Ct45.JHD@netcom.com>, adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote: > Jonathan W Hendry (jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu) wrote: > Is there a PowerMac that does not have builtin ethernet? Some of the > laptops I suppose, but I recall built-in ethernet in desktops and towers > going back far into the 68K era. The Quadra/Centris line had ethernet, which is to say, the 68040/68LC040 machines. That's a good long time ago, around 1993-1994, if I remember correctly. Unfortunately, although these machines had ethernet, technically, you still had to buy a transceiver to get it working, since the only port was AAUI. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:16:10 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36B5D34A.E4DF1900@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> <78vofc$fhv@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Coffey wrote: > We're in viloent agreement here. Branding is *important* in a commodity > market, because it is oine way to distinguish a product that is essentially > no diffferent thna that offered by others. If branding is not successful > (my : of little consequence), then the goods are commodities. > > That's why Advil, Tylenol, etc are marketd strongly - to convince people > they are better than the (exactly identical) generics. Yes. It's why your Superbowl advertisements last night included a flurry of 7-Up commercials, despite the fact that 7-Up isn't substantially different from Sprite or Slice. > >After all, we call them "PCs", not even "IBM-compatible PCs", these > >days. Sign of disappearing brand, and decreasing commoditization as the > >pace of technology and feature-addition increases. > > If branding disappears, then it's a good sign that a product is strictly a > commodity. Huh? You just said "Branding is *important* in a commodity market, because it is one way to distinguish a product that is essentially no different than that offered by others." I can't reconcile these two statements. > >I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with commodities. I > >don't agree that individual manufacturers are unable to significantly > >influence prices, nor do I agree that such would be a sign of > >commoditization. > > That is teh exact nature of acommodity market. In a word, no. How do you substantiate this? The exact nature of a commodity market is production of unspecialized, undifferentiated goods. Price fluctuations (or lack thereof) are entirely orthogonal to that definition. Particular dealers in commodities markets have long been known to influence prices significantly, from Carnegie and Rockefeller and "watered-down stock" dealers to the brand name salesmen of today's Consumerism culture. > Branding results in price elasticity. That's teh goal of commodity sellers. > > Not here in the south. Cokes are 35 cents from some vending machines. I live in Dallas. Where can I find such a wonder? Even Dr. Pepper (headquartered 10 minutes north, in Plano) costs half a buck. MJP
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:38:12 +0000 Message-ID: <slrn7b69r4.3hc.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <78t9ls$l6c$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <n8ws2.1801$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It was the Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:46:11 GMT... ..and Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote: > On 29 Jan 1999 21:37:00 GMT, spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com > <spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com> wrote: > >I have done a lot of quantum chemistry simulation work and getting > >miniturization down to the atomic level (meaning transistors on the > >order of 10-100Angstroms will be mighty difficult). I suspect the next > >level of technological breakthrough will be in optical central > >processors - which generally are designed to be highly parallel and run > >at much higher frequencies.. > > Note that Crichton's book, Congo (independent of the pretty horrible > movie based on this somewhat-questionable-book) [schnibble] Somewhat-questionable? It's a pointless book. Nothing is really *finished* in it. mawa -- Matthias Warkus | mawa@iname.com | Dyson Spheres for sale! My Geek Code is no longer in my .signature. It's available on e-mail request. It's sad to live in a world where knowing how to program your VCR actually lowers your social status...
From: seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:19:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/ Message-ID: <36b35438.2781390@news.ultranet.com> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:56:10 -0500, jslewis@erols.com (Josh Lewis) wrote: >In article <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" ><liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > >> Another reason not to use Windows/Intel and get Mac OS X with a PowerPC... >> >> Intel blinks: ID tracker will be off initially Intel is acknowledging >> privacy concerns by setting the default of built-in chip IDs to "off." Intel spins. Intel did not blink. >> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2192717,00.html >> >> Big Brother Inside. > >That was pioneered with the LISA! Intel does catch up! > >Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? by cookies, >by ethernet address, tcp/ip adress, by hard disk checksum, by what else? Personally I think this has nothing to do with idenfication, as the whole scheme will fall apart the moment the first person sells his machine to someone else. Its about node locking software, which I have no trouble with, as long as I can repair, upgrade or replace that node without any additional hassles. At least when Sun put in an identifier to node lock software they put it in a removable chip, so when you upgraded your processors or system, you could move the chip and your software would stay with you. Can you imagine having to buy another copy of Windows 2000 and Office 2000 just because you put in a faster processor? After all, its only going to be another $800 to get what youve already paid for (but its for such a good cause!) Think about it: If Netscape offers a browser that doesnt use this, and people run it to insure that they dont have to worry about privacy issues, its all over. If Microsoft locks their operating system and applications with it, there is no choice for many users. There are too many mission critical applications and data sets that require Microsoft software to correctly interpret to allow a sudden change to an alternative platform. >Intel was only unique in that a) it was broadcast over the internet, >b)they had a random number generator run by the heat of their CPUs! -Steve
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 30 Jan 1999 20:01:48 GMT Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc Message-ID: <78vofc$fhv@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote in message <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com>... >Jim Coffey wrote: > >> That branding is of little consequence is a good sign of commoditization. > >[pause] > >No, I beg to differ. Branding is of utmost importance to most >consumer-level commodities, while features are of utmost importance to >non-commodities. Branding is a good sign of increased commoditization, >which is exactly what I have been arguing. We're in viloent agreement here. Branding is *important* in a commodity market, because it is oine way to distinguish a product that is essentially no diffferent thna that offered by others. If branding is not successful (my : of little consequence), then the goods are commodities. That's why Advil, Tylenol, etc are marketd strongly - to convince people they are better than the (exactly identical) generics. > >After all, we call them "PCs", not even "IBM-compatible PCs", these >days. Sign of disappearing brand, and decreasing commoditization as the >pace of technology and feature-addition increases. > If branding disappears, then it's a good sign that a product is strictly a commodity. > >I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with commodities. I >don't agree that individual manufacturers are unable to significantly >influence prices, nor do I agree that such would be a sign of >commoditization. That is teh exact nature of acommodity market. >Competitive, marginal pricing is actually a trademark >of feature-driven markets, not commodity markets. Commodity markets, >like the soft drink example, show great price disparity. Outside of >Walmart you can get no-name sodas for 20 cents. Coca-Cola costs at least >50 cents per can. > Branding results in price elasticity. That's teh goal of commodity sellers. Not here in the south. Cokes are 35 cents from some vending machines.
From: "Eric Blair" <chekov00@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Eric Blair's defense of Microsoft (previous subject line garbled) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:22:57 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78vhm7$7ll@papoose.quick.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > You declare that the government should have no right to regulate > big business, and imply such intervention is incompatible with the > operation of free-market economies in particular and with capitalism > in general. Your statements show a profound ignorance af the > fundamental definitions of both free markets, and capitalism. Both > historically, and theoretically, the interests of big business have > been in disagreement with those of both the majority of the individual > members of society and the interests of either states or economic > markets as a whole. This is neither good nor bad, it is merely a > statement of fact. That you equate the interests of big business > with those of free markets is at best naive. > > 223 years ago, Adam Smith, in "The Wealth of Nations", clearly > identified the fundamental elements of economic theory. This is > unarguably the first and most oft cited reference on free markets. > Despite its age, this work is still consistent with both the observed > behavior of real economic systems, and with current theoretical > treatments of free markets. > <SNIP> I stand corrected, but I was not "defending Microsoft" I was defending Business. Lets take this discussion into maybe alt.flame.communism . I hate Microsoft, and I will never use Windows again, yes I am using Outlook express, only because I didn't pay a dime for it. --Eric
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <jslewis-2901990121000001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> <78rkma$g6e$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <W7ws2.1790$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> Message-ID: <36b39826.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 30 Jan 99 23:39:18 GMT In comp.sys.next.advocacy Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@news.hex.net> wrote: > The bigger problem is if you're a manufacturer making Firewire support > chips. If you do a good job, the cost might be less than a buck apiece. > A $1/port price may more than double the cost of your product. While this is true, the competition would also be eating that $1/port charge, so it's not like any one company will be at a price disadvantage.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Eric Blair's defense of Microsoft (previous subject line garbled) Message-ID: <nHTNJgfxUyIK@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 30 Jan 99 18:21:12 MDT References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78vhm7$7ll@papoose.quick.com> <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Eric Blair" wrote: > I stand corrected, but I was not "defending Microsoft" I was defending > Business. Lets take this discussion into maybe alt.flame.communism . > > I hate Microsoft, and I will never use Windows again, yes I am using Outlook > express, only because I didn't pay a dime for it. > If you find a Microsoft product good enough that you use it regularly, don't you feel any moral obligation to pay for it? I don't like Microsoft either, but there are occasional times when I find no other choice but to use Windows. So I bought a copy of Windows and installed it on a partition of my disk. I don't like Microsoft's business practices, but that doesn't give me any right to steal their software. edx
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 30 Jan 99 18:08:18 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D8FB32-3920F@206.165.43.161> References: <36b29df4$0$16673@nntp1.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Kenneth C. Dyke <kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com> said: >On 01/29/99, Hugh Johnson wrote: >>In article <36b1644a$0$16678@nntp1.ba.best.com>, >>kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote: >> >>> >>> Except that in the second case, assuming you are using C++ syntax >for a >>> reason, you can write a subclass of GXShape. Correct me if I'm >wrong, >>> but programmers can't add new shape classes to GX, right? >>> >> >> >>Create an abstract base class that contains all the necessary data >>structures, and incorporates relay methods to all the pseudo-methods >of >>the system object in question. In the same header, include a macro to >>use in all derived constructors, using enums for the different >dispatch >>values. Derive simple subclasses with different private enums to >effect >>polymorphic construction and behavior. _Voila!_ - you've got yourself >a >>perfect mimic of the hidden system object. You can derive further >>objects to your heart's content, treat it as 100% pure OOP if you >want. > >Okay, from what I can tell that gives the programmer a subclass of the >GX shape, right? But, how does your solution make GX deal with your >new kind of shape? I guess maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but >it seems like you can't teach GX how to render some new kind of >primitive that it doesn't already internally have code for. GX is very powerful, and you can fake, within certain limits, ANY kind of shape that you want. However, the more you depart from the capabilities of the built-in types, the more difficult it is to do properly. Here's an example of a simple add-on shape: gxOvalShape. GX only defines curves and paths, but not a specific type for ovals. You can roll your own (Apple supplies a library that does this) which will work just fine as long as you don't try to convert a non-oval shape into an oval shape; since there is no defined gxOval type, the built-in type-conversion function would complain. Converting an oval to some other type works fine since the Oval API simply creates a paths shape with the proper control points. One could write a wrapper class to deal with this issue, I suppose. More complex shapes, like Dan Lipton's Curved Layout shape, can also be created, with the same caveat. The biggest problem with extending GX is when you try to print it. If you can't easily define the extensions in terms of the older primitives, there's no easy way (if it is possible at all) to extend the GX printing library to handle your extension to the system. An example of this would be a gradient shape type. I can fake one onscreen pretty easily, but it will be limited in resolution. No translation to PostScript Level 3 gradients is possible without some futzing that isn't well-documented (if it is possible at all using the printing library which is designed for Level 1 & 2 PS). That brings up another issue: non-opaque printing. If I limit the resolution of a gradient, then I can deal with it as a bitmap with a clipping shape, and the solution of using the intersection of overlapping non-opaque shapes to create opaque equivalent PS paths would be trivial (at least if Apple ever releases their library to do this). However, L3 PS gradients are still based on the PS opaque ink model, as far as I know, so one MUST limit the use of resolution independent gradients to opaque objects if one tries to use the L3 gradients. The problem isn't limited to GX, of course. Anything that Apple does that goes beyond the PS model will require SOME level of information degradation during the translation into the EPS/PDF/PS formats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:57:06 -0500 From: sg.od.in@info.sys.incdotcom (Scott R. Godin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Eric Blair's defense of Microsoft (previous subject line garbled) Message-ID: <sg.od.in-0102991457060001@10.1.10.225> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78vhm7$7ll@papoose.quick.com> <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <nHTNJgfxUyIK@cc.usu.edu> <36B38F5B.34340594@rocketmail.com> Organization: Info Systems, Inc. In article <36B38F5B.34340594@rocketmail.com>, Peter_Ammon@rocketmail.com wrote: > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > > > In <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Eric Blair" wrote: > > > I stand corrected, but I was not "defending Microsoft" I was defending > > > Business. Lets take this discussion into maybe alt.flame.communism . > > > > > > I hate Microsoft, and I will never use Windows again, yes I am using Outlook > > > express, only because I didn't pay a dime for it. > > > > > > > If you find a Microsoft product good enough that you use it regularly, don't > > you feel any moral obligation to pay for it? I don't like Microsoft either, > > but there are occasional times when I find no other choice but to use Windows. > > So I bought a copy of Windows and installed it on a partition of my disk. I > > don't like Microsoft's business practices, but that doesn't give me any right > > to steal their software. > > > > edx > > Outlook express is free. So is Eudora Light :P -- remove all the '.'s from my address and put a '.' where the 'dot' is in order to reply. SUPPORT NO SPAM EFFORTS. Apologies for the incon- venience that the spammers have forced me to subject you to in order to simply send me e-mail.
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 1 Feb 1999 19:50:14 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7bc1bm.c90.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <SPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 1999 19:50:14 GMT Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: :Bernhard Scholz wrote: :[snip] :NIXSPAM> >But what keeps me using my NeXT is the GUI. :NIXSPAM> > :NIXSPAM> dito. As far as the flawless integration of applications are part as :NIXSPAM> the GUI! Only in xStep the drag&drop support in conjunction with :NIXSPAM> services and filters is as perfect as anywhere else. : : I subscribe to this. The signals from Apple indicate they're going to :ditch YB in favour of Java. Laughable. I've given up the idea of pushing :YB around here. More correctly: They want to move from Objective-C to Java-the-language to access the YB API's. This is hardly unreasonable, and this direction started before NeXT was bought by Apple. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: paco@unicron.naweb.com (Paco) Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <790f9l$ml5@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <pVQs2.253$mo2.1101@news9.ispnews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:23:49 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:23:49 GMT al51@nospam.takea.guess.cornell.edu wrote: : In article <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote: : >Excuse me for asking, but did you read the EE Times article? : > : >The Intel technology does not transmit the chips ID across the Internet. : > : >What happens is that the web server sends a random number to the client : >(presumably generated based on the servers chip ID). The client runs : >software which performs a function on the random number and the clients : >chip ID. It then sends the result back to the server. From then on, when : >that particular server wants to verify if you're the same client, it : >will send the same random number it did the first time, and it will : >expect the same result it got the first time. Different servers will : >start with different random numbers (from a different ID base), and will : >therefore not get the same number back from the same client. : I read it. Great plan, until some company decides a universal database would : be a good idea and starts selling server software that all sends the same : "random" number out. It still wouldn't work. The key codeis determined by a combination of two randomly generated numbers. They'd both have to be the same number o get the same result. A database is thus highly unlikely as there is nothing tying the two numbers together. Besides, such information is already out there. Amazon.com and CDNOW both know my name, credit card # and address. Why haven't they pooled their resources together into one big database? The sky isn't falling. : Or some hacker finds the "identity" number. That is the number which when run : through the ringer with your ID number comes back with the ID number itself. Let's give it some time. Divx was supposed to be hacked within a month after it came out, according to some people. : >Now, that's where some of the problems come in. What if the servers are : >clustered or mirrored, where you may be talking to a different server : >each time you talk to the same web site? Each would have its own ID : >number, unless this technology has a way to set several servers to the : >same ID number. What happens when I upgrade my PC or use a different PC? : >In that case, I'm a different person as far as this technology is : >concerned. : That ability would make the server spoof software I mentioned obsolete. Just : all agree to set your servers's number to the same number and bingo. Again, this is all conjecture. The final technical specs won't be released until the developer's conference.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Netbooting to MOSXS? Date: 31 Jan 1999 04:19:09 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <790ljt$fje$1@news.digifix.com> References: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> In-Reply-To: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> On 01/29/99, John Kuszewski wrote: >Hi, > >Macintouch and MacNN today have posted identical feature >summaries of MacOSX Server, and they include an interesting >tidbit: > >> - NETBOOT: >> >> Software that allows iMac and the new G3 machines to boot >> completely from the server. The local disk is not >> used. After the boot is completed, the Mac can login >> to any AFP Server including Helios EtherShare running on >> MacOS X. This feature is very important for EDUCATION >> sites to save maintenance costs and to support many >> more Macs. >> >> You can also netboot Mac OS X Server-- very useful if you are >> writing device drivers or other kernel modules. > >WHAT? Can anyone confirm this? Can a Mac netboot into >MOSXS (not MOS 8.*) off an MOSXS server? This would make >distributing Yellow Box apps a *LOT* more practical! Nope. Asked Avie at MacWorld, and its strictly Mac OS 8.x. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <13193917154022@digifix.com> Date: 31 Jan 1999 04:44:42 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <29381917758824@digifix.com> Topics include: Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites NeXTanswers Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites ============================================ The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise. Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server http://www.stepwise.com Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related Frequently Asked Questions. NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org http://www.peak.org/next http://www.peak.org/openstep http://www.peak.org/rhapsody PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North America. Apple Enterprise Software Group (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) http://enterprise.apple.com http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software patches. Apple Computer's Rhapsody Developer Release Site http://gemma.apple.com/rhapsody/rhapdev/rhapsody.html These pages are focused on tools and resources you need to develop great Rhapsody software products.. Rhapsody Developer Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/rhapsody/rhapsody.html WebObjects Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups ==================================================== COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific groups as well. COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. ** RELATED NEWSGROUPS ** COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. COMP.OBJECT Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites ================================= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.peanuts.org: (Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site. Very well maintained. ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dmgzqb.1de8few1s3q9daN@pppsl1464.chicagonet.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <D0CAA8CA3EF7AA90.23936D0A3381A9E6.73DF713E5396C7DE@library-proxy.airnews.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 01:58:18 EDT Organization: ISPNews http://ispnews.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:57:31 -0600 nate <nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jan 1999 06:51:05 -0600, edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net > (Edwin E. Thorne) wrote: > > > >> Edwin (or is it Anton or Cybernaught or Milo today?), when you spread such > >> shit like this it's easy to see why nobody takes you seriously. > > > >It's Edwin on the days you take your pills, > > And Anton, cybernut, milo etc (polaski? taggart? you never know) when > edwin forgets his. Nate, your attempts at humor are almost as lame as the "artwork" you put up on your site. -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: Peter Ammon <Peter_Ammon@rocketmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Eric Blair's defense of Microsoft (previous subject line garbled) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:01:47 +0000 Organization: University of California, Berkeley Message-ID: <36B38F5B.34340594@rocketmail.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78vhm7$7ll@papoose.quick.com> <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <nHTNJgfxUyIK@cc.usu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > In <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "Eric Blair" wrote: > > I stand corrected, but I was not "defending Microsoft" I was defending > > Business. Lets take this discussion into maybe alt.flame.communism . > > > > I hate Microsoft, and I will never use Windows again, yes I am using Outlook > > express, only because I didn't pay a dime for it. > > > > If you find a Microsoft product good enough that you use it regularly, don't > you feel any moral obligation to pay for it? I don't like Microsoft either, > but there are occasional times when I find no other choice but to use Windows. > So I bought a copy of Windows and installed it on a partition of my disk. I > don't like Microsoft's business practices, but that doesn't give me any right > to steal their software. > > edx Outlook express is free.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? (Was Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: 30 Jan 99 17:42:15 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2D8F4FA-21C0E@206.165.43.161> References: <78t90s$8l1$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Here's the full article. Note that it was Don Yacktman who was ALSO confused about this. The wording is interesting because it leaves open the possibility of doing MORE than the PDF model: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=413244838&CONTEXT 917644826.506003693&hit num=9 Don Yacktman wrote: > Anyway, I wonder if this sort of thing will even be possible at all in > Display PDF, given that there is no server to query. If I had to read in and > interpret all the Font crap myself I'd never have been able to implement this > sort of thing in such a short time...and I probably wouldn't have bothered. > Having the DPS server do it for you is so much easier. And why write your > own code to interpret fonts if there's already code to do it built into the > system? Eggzactly! > I think it is issues like these and the fact that Apple hasn't told us what > this so called "Display PDF" will and won't do, that has so many old-timers > upset about the upcoming loss of DPS. If we still get the functionality, > then it is no biggie, but lose stuff like this and you lose a lot of cool > apps/functionality you might otherwise have. You'll still get the functionality. You'll be able to get outlines from the font machinery, futz with them, and stroke or fill them. The only functionality that's disappearing is the presence of a native PostScript interpreter, so you'll have to call C functions instead of PostScript wraps. Instead of a single monolithic server, there's a bunch of services, including windowing, fonts, and so on. By the way, we're not doing 'Display PDF'. We're doing a graphics system that supports the PostScript imaging model (NOT language, IMAGING MODEL), and will support PDF as a document exchange format. ('A' >document exchange format, not the sole format.)" >In article <SCOTT.99Jan28164016@slave.doubleu.com>, > scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) wrote: >> In article <78qje3$trf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, >> agave_@hotmail.com writes: >> >> Even that's giving too much. Describing the drawing engine as >> "Display PDF" is inaccurate. It is a new display engine that uses >> the Postscript imaging model. >> <snip> >> How you interact with the server will be the main point of >> change. >> >> If that is _really_ the case, then their describing it as something >> PDF-based is disingenuous, to say the least. I've taken the various >> PDF-based references to mean that it's using the PDF imaging model, >> which is a subset of Postscript imaging model. >> > > I found those references I was looking for, the most relevent being: >http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=413244838&CONTEXT= >917644826.506003693&hit >num=9 > >Mike Paquette wrote: >"By the way, we're not doing 'Display PDF'. We're doing a graphics >system that supports the PostScript imaging model (NOT language, IMAGING >MODEL), and will support PDF as a document exchange format. ('A' >document exchange format, not the sole format.)" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Eric Blair's defense of Microsoft (previous subject line garbled) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:33:25 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7914gl$cev$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78vhm7$7ll@papoose.quick.com> <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <nHTNJgfxUyIK@cc.usu.edu> In article <nHTNJgfxUyIK@cc.usu.edu>, edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > If you find a Microsoft product good enough that you use it regularly, don't > you feel any moral obligation to pay for it? I don't like Microsoft either, > but there are occasional times when I find no other choice but to use Windows. > So I bought a copy of Windows and installed it on a partition of my disk. I > don't like Microsoft's business practices, but that doesn't give me any right > to steal their software. Outlook Express is free. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 30 Jan 1999 15:50:31 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m3btjgeb8o.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <78oppn$gq0$1@hecate.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) writes: -> I guess that all I can write is... "Huh?" -> -> Linux is multithreaded != multithreaded kernel. Let me try again. Linux will run on one CPU at a time because the kernel is single threaded. If the system load is 10% system, then no matter how many CPUs are in the box, 10% of the time only the kernel is running. Solaris has a multi-threaded kernel. On a dual CPU machine, if 10% of the load is spent in system, then each CPU may be sharing the kernel load. That is, 95% of the CPU time is free for user. The same dual machine running Linux has only 90% of the time free for user. With Solaris, machine performance increases linearly with added CPUs. With Linux, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. With NT, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. Clear as mud, right? -- David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail When will Altoids be available in 'extra strength'?
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 1 Feb 1999 21:21:38 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <7955t2$1u0$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> <792fnn$6d6@ns2.alink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy) wrote: > >Linear scaling is impossible. The best you can get is a slow >divergence from linear scaling. He probably meant it reasonably >approximates linear scaling. > dito. And however only transputer systems scale linear, but they are currently not buy :) >Since Sun sells a machine which supports up to 64 processors my guess >is that Solaris does support more than 8 or 16 CPU's. > I'm not quite sure about this. As far as I remember the 64 processor machine is technology bought from Cray Computer. This means, it is a 64 processore machine, splitted into virtual machines. The machine has up to 8 Processor boards, each holding up to 8 processors. Each processor is able to run it's own OS, and each Board can also be controlled by an OS. I don't know, if all boards can be controlled by one OS. As far as I remember, there is limitation in all current microcomputer OSs in design, which makes it hard to grow >4 processor and to controll 8 is pretty good! (NT works hard with 2 :))) ) Only multiprocessor machines are designed for more than 8 processors and all have a special OS. (BTW: Don't mix this up with the "cluster" records from Linux handling 512 and more machines! This is NOT a kernel cluster, its done by networking with PVM and other software technologies, and in fact these technologies scale bad and the software has to be specifically designed) Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Netbooting to MOSXS? Date: 1 Feb 1999 21:26:58 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <795672$1u0$2@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <791k27$224$3@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMLESSforrest-3101991011210001@term6-45.vta.west.net> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901311745060.29887-100000@mail.his.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <gbh@middlemarch.net> wrote: >> >I don't understand why booting MacOSX from the server would make >> >distributing of YB a *LOT* more practical? [...] > >> I think he may have meant distribution to people, not to machines ... >> But if you can netboot into OSXS, then you'd have a >> whole lab full of Yellow-capable apps, which would make selling a >> consumer-oriented Yellow app much more feasible... > >Not to mention saving the $1000 per seat licensing fee. > Yes, I understand that argument. However the saving fee isn't an arguments. Netbooting doesn't mean, you don't have to pay for the client machines' OS! I would bet my right hand, that you still have to pay the OS8.1 licence to netboot your iMac client or whatever. On the other hand there is no Mac without a MacOS license :) You always buy the bundle. But as I'd bet my right hand on this, I'd also bet, that MacOS-X Server will also be able to netboot MacOS-X (once available). The original posters point is: he wants a MacOX-Server Client license (or Workstation version or whatever) which many other want, too. If he'd buy OSXS licenses for his clients he would be out of trouble, too. But that would be expensive.... Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: Ashp <ashp@hivemind.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 1 Feb 1999 19:31:13 GMT Organization: INSnet Customer Posting Distribution: world Message-ID: <36b60101.0@pollack.meganet.co.uk> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <78cp8a$dq6$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 1999 19:33:36 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981002 ("Phobia") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.1-ac1 (i586)) In comp.os.linux.advocacy Bernhard Scholz <scholz@leo.org> wrote: > And I fall down on the floor laughin to notice that: > * distribution packages are incompatible too Check for the program 'alien'. It converts between package types. -- Ashley Penney - <ashp@hivemind.org> "A key to understanding all religion is that a god's idea of amusement is Snakes and Ladders with greased rungs. "
From: seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:28:36 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications , an RCN Company http://www.ultranet.com/ Message-ID: <36b47405.76458281@news.ultranet.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:56:27 -0500, "John Saunders" <jws@jws.ultranet.com> wrote: >Thingfishhhh wrote in message ... >>In article <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, Hosun Sacreligious Lee >><holee@primenet.com> wrote: >> >>> H.W. Stockman <hwstock@wizard.com> writes: >>> : David T. Wang wrote: >>> >>> : > Pentium ID concerns were unfounded, expert says >>> : > >>> : > http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990127S0011 >>> : > >>> : > Caveat, The expert quoted is the software partner Intel used to >develope >>> : > the technology, but he does dispel the web tracking myth. >> >>This smacks more of the marketing weasels than anything else - who else >>would benfit more from the technology, besides law enforcement and the >>government? >> >>A bona-fide way of tracking people across the web? One that is not as >>obvious as cookies and such? > > >Excuse me for asking, but did you read the EE Times article? > >The Intel technology does not transmit the chips ID across the Internet. If software can read the number, software can transmit it over the internet. It can also use it for virtually any other purpose. Just because Intel says their software wont do something, doesnt mean that Microsoft or Netscape (90+% of the OS and web browser markets) wont do something. >What happens is that the web server sends a random number to the client >(presumably generated based on the servers chip ID). The client runs >software which performs a function on the random number and the clients >chip ID. It then sends the result back to the server. From then on, when >that particular server wants to verify if you're the same client, it >will send the same random number it did the first time, and it will >expect the same result it got the first time. Different servers will >start with different random numbers (from a different ID base), and will >therefore not get the same number back from the same client. > >Now, that's where some of the problems come in. What if the servers are >clustered or mirrored, where you may be talking to a different server >each time you talk to the same web site? Each would have its own ID >number, unless this technology has a way to set several servers to the >same ID number. What happens when I upgrade my PC or use a different PC? >In that case, I'm a different person as far as this technology is >concerned. What happens when multiple people use the same computers (common in lab situations) and multiple computers are used by the same person? If web sites rely on this technology, what happens to anyone who doesnt own a new Intel based PC with a Microsoft OS? How much of a burden will be put on the user to manage changing identification at every site they deal with when they upgrade? If this technology cant really be disabled, and it turns out it reduces security in the long run rather than increasing it, who will be held responsible and how? >I'm going to have to look into this in more detail. I'd hate to think >Intel hadn't thought it through. I havent seen any answers to the questions above, nor any meaningful assurances that this feature really can be disabled in a meaningful way. Given all the press this has received, the lack of answers to these questions tells me they havent thought it through. >John Saunders >jws@jws.ultranet.com <mailto:jws@jws.ultranet.com> >[ See "21st Century and the Third Millenium at >http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/faq2.html ] >[ Any opinions expressed are not those of my employer ] -Steve
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Distribution: world Subject: Re: Netbooting to MOSXS? Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-3101991011210001@term6-45.vta.west.net> References: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <791k27$224$3@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:11:21 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:11:22 PDT In article <791k27$224$3@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de>, scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) wrote: >I don't understand why booting MacOSX from the server would make >distributing of YB a *LOT* more practical? Even if MacOSXS boots >normally (as a client) and connects to the server, you don't need >to install YB apps on the clients: they are just available! So what >additional benefit would you gain from netbooting MacOSX(S)? I think he may have meant distribution to people, not to machines. That is, if OSXS only allows you to netboot into MacOS 8.x, then any clients netbooting from the OSXS server box will only be running classic MacOS, and won't be able to use Yellow apps. So, you'd have a lab full of Macs with one Yellow box. But if you can netboot into OSXS, then you'd have a whole lab full of Yellow-capable apps, which would make selling a consumer-oriented Yellow app much more feasible. So, from the YB programmer's perspective, if OSXS only netboots into OS8, then you'll only have the [relatively] few people who buy OSXS running your app, most of which aren't going to be Joe Consumer. But if OSXS netboots into OSXS, you'd still only have those few people *buying* your app, but they will be buying it to serve to all of their client machines; hence, the influence of Joe Client Consumer will get Joe Server Admin to buy an app which he normally might not have bought. -- -Forrest Cameranesi forrest [at] west [dot] net
From: "Jim Coffey" <jlc@bocus.uchicago.org> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: 1 Feb 1999 20:54:46 GMT Organization: Ivory Tower,Inc Message-ID: <7954am$87i@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> <78vofc$fhv@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <36B5D34A.E4DF1900@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote in message <36B5D34A.E4DF1900@ericsson.com>... >Jim Coffey wrote: > (snip) - >> If branding disappears, then it's a good sign that a product is strictly a >> commodity. > >Huh? You just said "Branding is *important* in a commodity market, >because it is one way to distinguish a product that is essentially no >different than that offered by others." I can't reconcile these two >statements. > "Important" is different from "Consequential.' Branding is important because it serves to differentiate otherwise identical products. If branding is not successful, it is of no consequence to the market. It doesn't lessens it importance (to the companies trying to brand), it just means they can't convince consumers that the brand is worth extra dollars. >> >> That is teh exact nature of acommodity market. > >In a word, no. How do you substantiate this? The exact nature of a >commodity market is production of unspecialized, undifferentiated goods. Which, I contended, is what the mass market PC industry is tending to. >Price fluctuations (or lack thereof) are entirely orthogonal to that >definition. Particular dealers in commodities markets have long been >known to influence prices significantly, from Carnegie and Rockefeller >and "watered-down stock" dealers to the brand name salesmen of today's >Consumerism culture. In teh case of steel and oil, there was one producer who could control price by varying output. For most commodities, one supplier can't do that. If one tries to raise prices, teh consumer goes to the others. > >> Branding results in price elasticity. That's teh goal of commodity sellers. >> >> Not here in the south. Cokes are 35 cents from some vending machines. > >I live in Dallas. Where can I find such a wonder? Even Dr. Pepper >(headquartered 10 minutes north, in Plano) costs half a buck. > Publix has them in the southeast. Probably a traffic builder...
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@damnspam.semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:34:20 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-310119991435136580@143.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <36b47405.76458281@news.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <36b47405.76458281@news.ultranet.com>, seh@quadrizen.com (Stephen E. Halpin) wrote: > > If software can read the number, software can transmit it over > the internet. It can also use it for virtually any other purpose. > Just because Intel says their software wont do something, doesnt > mean that Microsoft or Netscape (90+% of the OS and web browser > markets) wont do something. > Or, you can use it to register your software with a sort of built-in dongleware scheme. This would be great for programmers -- and terrible for Intel itself. It tends to turn programs into machine-specific fixtures, so if you buy a certain machine and add lots of programs, you're less likely to buy another machine next year because your investment in the first machine is too "fixed". When Intel finds out that this hurts their market (DUH!), they'll kill the whole idea. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro ---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:51:03 GMT Organization: A-Link Network Services, Inc. Message-ID: <792fnn$6d6@ns2.alink.net> References: <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> In article <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus) writes: > It was the 30 Jan 1999 15:50:31 -0500... > ..and David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> wrote: > [schnibble] > > With Solaris, machine performance increases linearly with added CPUs. > > With Linux, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. > > With NT, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. > > I used to think perfect linear scaling was impossible. Are you sure Solaris > scales past eight or 16 CPUs? Linear scaling is impossible. The best you can get is a slow divergence from linear scaling. He probably meant it reasonably approximates linear scaling. Since Sun sells a machine which supports up to 64 processors my guess is that Solaris does support more than 8 or 16 CPU's. Mike Barthelemy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Eric Blair's defense of Microsoft (previous subject line garbled) Message-ID: <1QiGxB1cwUKI@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 31 Jan 99 09:22:10 MDT References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <78vhm7$7ll@papoose.quick.com> <7904i8$256$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <nHTNJgfxUyIK@cc.usu.edu> <7914gl$cev$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <7914gl$cev$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > In article <nHTNJgfxUyIK@cc.usu.edu>, > edx@cc.usu.edu wrote: > > > If you find a Microsoft product good enough that you use it regularly, don't > > you feel any moral obligation to pay for it? I don't like Microsoft either, > > but there are occasional times when I find no other choice but to use Windows. > > So I bought a copy of Windows and installed it on a partition of my disk. I > > don't like Microsoft's business practices, but that doesn't give me any right > > to steal their software. > > Outlook Express is free. Oops. I apologize for the insinuation that someone was using software that they purposely didn't pay for. I blame my unfamiliarity with Microsoft software - I had no idea that they actually had free software in the market. Again, my apologies.
From: agave_@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:32:56 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <792lmp$ifd$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> In article <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de>, scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) wrote: > gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) wrote: > >> Why? The UI will change for the personal edition. As for the > >> server, I am sure most of the powr users would simply prefer a CLI. > > > >The *only* thing that has kept me from moving to one of the free BSD > >Unixes (like OpenBSD, FreeBSD) has been the NEXTSTEP GUI. > > > dito. As far as the flawless integration of applications are part as > the GUI! Only in xStep the drag&drop support in conjunction with > services and filters is as perfect as anywhere else. > *laugh* Of course it's the GUI :) NEXTSTEP was never a spectacular UNIX. As a user, It's always been the GUI and as a developer, the OpenStep tools and APIs. You'll never hear me say I'm switch to some other platform (user or developer) because they're all, IMNSHO, crap. UNIX + X Windowing System: crap. MS Windows: crap. MacOS: crap. That leaves MacOS X [Server] which is where you'll find me ;) -- Ian P. Cardenas -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:48:50 -0500 From: <gbh@middlemarch.net> Subject: Re: Netbooting to MOSXS? In-Reply-To: <SPAMLESSforrest-3101991011210001@term6-45.vta.west.net> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901311745060.29887-100000@mail.his.com> References: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <791k27$224$3@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMLESSforrest-3101991011210001@term6-45.vta.west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Heller Information Services > >I don't understand why booting MacOSX from the server would make > >distributing of YB a *LOT* more practical? [...] > I think he may have meant distribution to people, not to machines ... > But if you can netboot into OSXS, then you'd have a > whole lab full of Yellow-capable apps, which would make selling a > consumer-oriented Yellow app much more feasible... Not to mention saving the $1000 per seat licensing fee.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury_remove_this@istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com> Message-ID: <s56t2.171$2%4.398704@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:58:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:57:12 EDT In article <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: >Thus they're better off writing their own instead of trying to hitch their >cart to someone else's horse. Scarry to know that's the reality of the market these days. Maury
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <9837ORE3.U483Z309@macrotrade.com> Control: cancel <9837ORE3.U483Z309@macrotrade.com> Date: 01 Feb 1999 01:01:13 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.9837ORE3.U483Z309@macrotrade.com> Sender: macrotrade@macrotrade.com Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: 31 Jan 99 21:00:06 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2DA76B2-3B69B@206.165.43.57> References: <36B1C25F.9BB79E93@oaai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy But I said "non-opaque," not just "transparent. The word was chosen quite carefully. I'm well aware that you can do this with YB because of the transparency composite modes, but you can't do the rest of the GX stuff. Remember: GX, unlike the current Carbon graphics model, defines a per-color-channel transfer-mode model. You can describe the color of an object in one color space, and define how it is composited using a different color space, AND define a separate transfer-mode for each color-channel. And non-opaque means XOR, AND, ADD, SUBTRACT, etc., not just evaluate using an alpha channel. Far more interesting results are possible. You can even use the R-channel value instead of the alpha channel's value, when handling transparency operations. Also, how do you handle interesecting non-opaque objects with different scalings, using this strategy? It looks like you're drawing the text-string into an offscreen bitmap and using THAT for all future drawings. What if I rotate and scale the text-string (we can't even talk about perspective at this point)? Don't you have to go back and refocus and redraw the original string using the new rotation? I just change the components of the transform object's transform matrix and redraw the string. The "focus" is automatic: it is the predefined viewport(s) that the string's transform object points to that the string is drawn into. True, this could be built into a higher-level library for YB, but that's part of the overall point here: the current graphics library that YB uses is oriented ONLY towards the YB. Anyone who is targetting pre-G3 systems can't use it, as it exists right now. > > >Lawson English wrote: > >> Lawson English <english@primenet.com> said: >> >> >If you add in GX's >> >per-color-channel transfer modes, it is even less PDF-like, but still >> >trivial to do. >> >> The "trivial" is in reference to having scrolling, non-opaque text on top >> of a bitmap background, not in reference to saving the image in PDF >format. > >....just off the top of my head: > >NSAttributedString string; >NSImage semitransparentString; > >NSImage backgroundImage; // assume this exists and is a bitmap... > > >// create the string to draw. >string = new NSAttributedString("Semi-transparent text"); > >// create the image object we'll draw semi-transparently >semitransparentString = new NSImage(); > >// put the text into the image object >semitransparentString.lockFocus(); >NSGraphics.drawAttributedString(string); >semitransparentString.unlockFocus(); > >// draw the background image >backgroundImage.compositeToPoint(new NSPoint(0,0), >NSImage.CompositeSourceOver); > >// to scroll, adjust the point you composite the text image >// object to... 0.5 translates to 50% transparency... >semitransparentString.dissolveToPoint(new NSPoint(0, 0), 0.5); > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 1 Feb 1999 09:26:23 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Berlin, Deutschland Message-ID: <793rvv$jq7$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com> <s56t2.171$2%4.398704@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 1999 09:26:23 GMT maury_remove_this@istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) writes: >In article <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com wrote: >>Thus they're better off writing their own instead of trying to hitch their >>cart to someone else's horse. > Scarry to know that's the reality of the market these days. Yup. One escape hatch I am currently exploring is Squeak/Smalltalk. The language gives you all you've loved about Objective-C and more (surprise, surprise...). The environment is moving fast and, with the help of a Smalltlak<->Objective-C bridge, can be interfaced to MX(S) really nicely. That way, if Apple does something silly like ditch YB or rewrite it in Java (and I really don't know which of these is sillier), then all I have to do is burn the bridge and move on. Marcel -- Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones. Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS. - Alan Kay -
From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Want MacOS X Server for Intel? Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:03:23 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7941lp$l4h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Would you like to see MacOS X Server for intel? Since MacWorld, a large number of former NeXTstep and Openstep users have felt wronged by Apple's change of plans regarding the release of MacOS X Server CR1 for intel. If you are one of these people, or feel that you would use MacOS X Server for intel if it were available, please send email to leadership@apple.com and express these concerns. Please make the subject header of your email concise and relevant as we don't know how Apple actually uses this email. A short subject will be helpful if Apple does a quick attitude survey of the email. Use something like: "Release MacOS X Server for Intel" But please try to be optimistic and explain your needs to Apple in the body of your message. If this decision by Apple is causing you to leave the platform, tell them. If it bothers you that Apple has a working version of MacOS X Server for intel but they are refusing to release it, tell them also. And though it may be naive to think this matters, it doesn't hurt to tell them how long you have been a customer. Such information may make a difference to a conscientious employee at Apple. If you do choose to send email, please send a copy to me also, so I can collect the results, and they will be posted on Stepwise's website: http://www.stepwise.com/ On the Stepwise site, you will can also find results for Scott Anguish's letter request concerning "The High Cost of Mac OS X Server". Send your email to: leadership@apple.com and penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp Thank you, Christopher Penrose penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Want MacOS X Server for Intel? Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:55:29 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79416v$koe$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Would you like to see MacOS X Server for intel? Since MacWorld, a large number of former NeXTstep and Openstep users have felt wronged by Apple's change of plans regarding the release of MacOS X Server CR1 for intel. If you are one of these people, or feel that you would use MacOS X Server for intel if it were available, please send email to leadership@apple.com and express these concerns. Please make the subject header of your email concise and relevant as we don't know how Apple actually uses this email. A short subject will be helpful if Apple does a quick attitude survey of the email. Use something like: "Release MacOS X Server for Intel" But please try to be optimistic and explain your needs to Apple in the body of your message. If this decision by Apple is causing you to leave the platform, tell them. If it bothers you that Apple has a working version of MacOS X Server for intel but they are refusing to release it, tell them also. And though it may be naive to think this matters, it doesn't hurt to tell them how long you have been a customer. Such information may make a difference to a conscientious employee at Apple. If you do choose to send email, please send a copy to me also, so I can collect the results, and they will be posted on Stepwise's website: http://www.stepwise.com/ On the Stepwise site, you will can also find results for Scott Anguish's letter request concerning "The High Cost of Mac OS X Server". Send your email to: leadership@apple.com and penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp Thank you, Christopher Penrose penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Message-ID: <w+Aroicw$Oj1@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 1 Feb 99 00:59:28 MDT References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > In article <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com>, > don@misckit.com wrote: > > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > > I've asked this before - can anyone purchase Openstep 4.2 from Apple > > > have they ever been able to purchase 4.2 (and I'm not talking Prelude > > > to Rhapsody). > > > > I don't know about in the past, but right now you cannot buy 4.2 from them > > for any price. If you try, you'll waste a lot of effort for nothing. > > > > For what it's worth - there is a company in Sydney, Australia that is selling > the full range of NeXT software - OPENSTEP for Mach, Webobjects etc. You can > probably find them from Apple Australias site - i cant find the mail they sent > me with their prices or company name ATM but i'll look for it if anyone is > interested. Black Hole Inc has a few copies, I believe. I just bought a copy of 4.2 from them two weeks ago. Get them while you can.
From: Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:18:28 +0100 Organization: IBM GS Corp. Message-ID: <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> References: <SPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernhard Scholz wrote: [snip] NIXSPAM> >But what keeps me using my NeXT is the GUI. NIXSPAM> > NIXSPAM> dito. As far as the flawless integration of applications are part as NIXSPAM> the GUI! Only in xStep the drag&drop support in conjunction with NIXSPAM> services and filters is as perfect as anywhere else. I subscribe to this. The signals from Apple indicate they're going to ditch YB in favour of Java. Laughable. I've given up the idea of pushing YB around here. The problem is I have to find a replacement for the NeXT GUI. Does anyone know hoe KDE compares to it (CDE sucks)? -- "To conserve energy we will temporarily switch off the light at the end of the tunnel" (I don't employ for my speaker)
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:16:32 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36B627C0.5A6805C4@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> <78vofc$fhv@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <36B5D34A.E4DF1900@ericsson.com> <7954am$87i@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Coffey wrote: > "Important" is different from "Consequential.' Branding is important > because it serves to differentiate otherwise identical products. If > branding is not successful, it is of no consequence to the market. It > doesn't lessens it importance (to the companies trying to brand), it just > means they can't convince consumers that the brand is worth extra dollars. Have I got this right?: you're saying that a commodities market shows both 1) increased vendor focus on brand 2) decreased consequence of brand Is this your point? > >In a word, no. How do you substantiate this? The exact nature of a > >commodity market is production of unspecialized, undifferentiated goods. > > Which, I contended, is what the mass market PC industry is tending to. What, exactly, did your contention have to do with the "branding" issue? I've lost the thread of your argument amongst this mucking about...I can hardly respond to an argument I don't understand, and when it takes three or more postings just to get the argument in English, it's tending toward despair. > >Price fluctuations (or lack thereof) are entirely orthogonal to that > >definition. Particular dealers in commodities markets have long been > >known to influence prices significantly, from Carnegie and Rockefeller > >and "watered-down stock" dealers to the brand name salesmen of today's > >Consumerism culture. > > In teh case of steel and oil, there was one producer who could control price > by varying output. For most commodities, one supplier can't do that. If > one tries to raise prices, teh consumer goes to the others. Sorry, that's completely untrue. Agricultural imports (around the world) have for years been subject to tariffs and taxes because foreign producers could control price by varying output (which is exactly what our government does to *us* when it pays farmers not to grow crops). By the way, you said "significantly influence prices" in your original statement. Now the context appears to be firmly cast as "if one tries to RAISE prices..." (emphasis added). [cut] MJP
Message-ID: <36B549D2.8A23C45C@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: netscape.public.mozilla.rhapsody,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Rhapsody/Mozilla: License change in the works... References: <36AFD10B.6C6B081C@netscape.com> <78t68o$638$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78tf0q$e7o$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <uSts2.4731$NQ.4963@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <tbrown-2901992327530001@d127.ecr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:29:42 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:35:18 CDT Ted Brown wrote: > In order for Apple to 'get support for Yellow', they have to be willing to > get it out to people who want it. Existing mac developers have their own > priorities, and justly so, it's Carbon. OpenStep developers are quite > willing to help out, but at this point, they have to be looking to keep > food on the table since they've been strung out for so long (you'll make > it next year doesn't allow you to eat today). OpenStep reminds me of the Libertarian Party <http://www.lp.org> -- both have been around for years (the LP 26+ yrs.), and neither have gone mainstream yet. Both have wins in some areas, but are still having marketing problems... I've been active in the NeXT community for about as long as I've been active in the Libertarian community, and I must say there are many parallels! Outreach and dissemination are key issues in both areas -- which are somewhat before their time. ;-) -Eric
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 1 Feb 1999 13:13:11 GMT Organization: NEXTTOYOU Message-ID: <794997$iu$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> References: <SPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 1999 13:13:11 GMT Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > Bernhard Scholz wrote: > [snip] > NIXSPAM> >But what keeps me using my NeXT is the GUI. > NIXSPAM> > > NIXSPAM> dito. As far as the flawless integration of applications are part > NIXSPAM> as the GUI! Only in xStep the drag&drop support in conjunction > NIXSPAM> with services and filters is as perfect as anywhere else. > > I subscribe to this. The signals from Apple indicate they're going to > ditch YB in favour of Java. Laughable. I've given up the idea of pushing > YB around here. > > The problem is I have to find a replacement for the NeXT GUI. GNUstep? Bye Uli -- _____________________________________________________________________ Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: - D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007 Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042 _____________________________________________________________________
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 1 Feb 1999 13:15:59 GMT Organization: NEXTTOYOU Message-ID: <7949ef$iu$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com> <s56t2.171$2%4.398704@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <793rvv$jq7$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 1999 13:15:59 GMT marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote: > Yup. One escape hatch I am currently exploring is Squeak/Smalltalk. > The language gives you all you've loved about Objective-C and > more (surprise, surprise...). The environment is moving fast What does it run on? Bye Uli -- _____________________________________________________________________ Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: - D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007 Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042 _____________________________________________________________________
From: Christian Neuss <neuss@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.invalid> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 2 Feb 1999 13:00:54 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <796su6$74d$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <78sckh$dd8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <78thf2$qu2$2@news.xmission.com> don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote: >I have _yet_ to see a _documented_ case of OPENSTEP 4.2 being sold by Apple >to anyone in the past three months...and maybe longer back than that. I >honestly don't think they'll do it any more given what I've been told by >people who have tried to buy it, much as I may wish I'm wrong about all > this. Does yesterday count? :-) Maybe Apple USA has different politics though. As they say, time will tell.. it always does. Kind regards, Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: OS-X Cross Platform dev de-emphasized ? Date: 1 Feb 1999 19:42:24 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Berlin, Deutschland Message-ID: <795030$20$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <78l224$6ap$1@news.tudelft.nl> <Gorr2.33$jP6.375666@news.bctel.net> <nqur2.23516$bf6.5962@news1.giganews.com> <dRur2.57$jP6.492440@news.bctel.net> <78m8dr$j4e$3@news.xmission.com> <F6AIy3.I7s@RnA.nl> <78tg3k$qu2$1@news.xmission.com> <s56t2.171$2%4.398704@NewsRead.Toronto.iSTAR.net> <793rvv$jq7$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <7949ef$iu$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Feb 1999 19:42:24 GMT uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) writes: [I mentioned Squeak] >What does it run on? MacOS, MacOS-X-Server, OPENSTEP 4.x, NEXTSTEP, Windows, Solaris, Linux, AIX, Acorn, various hand-helds including some sort of bare-bones device without an OS, and many, many more. Check out: http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ and http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak.1 It comes with the source for its own Virtual Machine written in Smalltalk that gets translated to C. All that's necessary for a port is a C (cross-)compiler and some I/O routines. The virtual image itself is bit-compatible across all platforms. Marcel -- Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones. Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS. - Alan Kay -
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 2 Feb 1999 14:03:53 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <7970k9$ct8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <SPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <slrn7bc1bm.c90.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79606v$evj$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > >this direction started before NeXT was bought by Apple. > Say what? Unlikely since we didn't even have Java support or > any real hope for it before Apple bought NeXT. When did the WebObjects Java Bridge come out? I recall reading something about it in early-mid 1997, which would have been fairly soon after the merger. I'd think they would have been working on it since before the merger. As far as Java in YellowBox, that's definitely post-Apple.
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Netbooting to MOSXS? Date: 2 Feb 1999 14:05:29 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <7970n9$ct8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <791k27$224$3@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMLESSforrest-3101991011210001@term6-45.vta.west.net> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901311745060.29887-100000@mail.his.com> <795672$1u0$2@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <79602n$evi$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > The catch is that it only works on new Macs, so you've already > paid for the OS.. :-) Hm. Is network licensing in common use on Macs? If not an OSX Server-based license manager for MacOS apps would be a key product.
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: 01 Feb 1999 23:34:54 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m3lnihctjl.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <78oppn$gq0$1@hecate.umd.edu> <m3btjgeb8o.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus) writes: -> It was the 30 Jan 1999 15:50:31 -0500... -> ...and David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> wrote: -> [schnibble] -> > With Solaris, machine performance increases linearly with added CPUs. -> > With Linux, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. -> > With NT, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. -> -> I used to think perfect linear scaling was impossible. Are you sure Solaris -> scales past eight or 16 CPUs? My information comes from a guy at work who has implimented features of Unix when porting it to the Amiga, has the source for AT&T Unix, has seen the Solaris source, and the Linux source. I consider him a reliable source on Unix lore. But to answer your question, I am not absolutely sure. I would expect a perfect linear increase to be impossible because there is still synchronization going on in the kernel. To scale truly linearly, you need a parallel processing system dealing with a problem that can be broken up and shared among different machines. 3D Rendering is a perfect example of this. If Moore's law continues to be true, it doesn't really matter that Linux won't scale to a large number of CPUs in an SMP system. Machines will get faster and faster, plus there is still beowulf for the really big stuff when you are on a budget. Besides, I use Solaris at work, and I prefer Linux in many ways. This is a usability issue rather than a technical one. YMWV. -- David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail When will Altoids be available in 'extra strength'?
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 2 Feb 1999 04:50:39 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79606v$evj$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <slrn7bc1bm.c90.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> In-Reply-To: <slrn7bc1bm.c90.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> On 02/01/99, Matt Kennel wrote: >Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: >:Bernhard Scholz wrote: >:[snip] >:NIXSPAM> >But what keeps me using my NeXT is the GUI. >:NIXSPAM> > >:NIXSPAM> dito. As far as the flawless integration of applications are part as >:NIXSPAM> the GUI! Only in xStep the drag&drop support in conjunction with >:NIXSPAM> services and filters is as perfect as anywhere else. >: >: I subscribe to this. The signals from Apple indicate they're going to >:ditch YB in favour of Java. Laughable. I've given up the idea of pushing >:YB around here. > >More correctly: They want to move from Objective-C to >Java-the-language to access the YB API's. This is hardly unreasonable, and It wouldn't be unreasonable... ... except ... Java still doesn't have everything Obj-C does. And there doesn't seem to be any plan at the moment to leave Obj-C as an alternative. If you want this.. you better start telling Apple. >this direction started before NeXT was bought by Apple. Say what? Unlikely since we didn't even have Java support or any real hope for it before Apple bought NeXT. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:18:03 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36B7253B.A3A55357@ericsson.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> <78vofc$fhv@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <36B5D34A.E4DF1900@ericsson.com> <7954am$87i@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <36B627C0.5A6805C4@ericsson.com> <pxpst2-0102991951570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: [cut] > Michael, you want to label the computer a sophisticated complex product > that is not a commodity and that is fine and I would agree if we were > talking about large servers, mainframes or supercomputers but we are not. We are. Ten years ago the personal computer was a completely different product, but today glorified versions of what you call the "PC" are the fastest-growing segment of the workstation and server markets. Once upon a time you bought a large UNIX server, mainframe, or supercomputer to do the work now done by $5000 Intel-based machines or even Linux clusters of same composed of off-the-shelf parts. Once upon a time you bought what was perhaps a pseudo-commodity from Hitachi, DEC, IBM, or Sun. These days you can build these things yourself from a shopping list in your own head. The "PC" name is an anachronism. The stuff we're talking about is no longer the sole domain of "personal computers". In fact, that very growth is a strong indicator in the opposite direction of commoditization. > We are talking about personal computers. Many peaple view a personal > computer as nothing more than a tool (akin to a hammer or screwdriver) and > thus it becomes a commodity in their eyes. That would be believable if it weren't for overwhelming evidence that the industry is driven by consumers with a very different agenda. There is immense pressure in this industry toward provision of features and specializations, and there is no sign of an end to it. MJP
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:51:57 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-0102991951570001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <36A69E7C.693A2F26@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <787ni5$60$1@remarQ.com> <36A769C6.CC031B5A@exu.ericsson.se> <787vlq$l5t$1@remarQ.com> <trev-2101991623220001@col-pm3-166.innova.net> <36A7A34A.B8043172@exu.ericsson.se> <pxpst2-2201991405170001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <36A8D63C.B57F6318@ericsson.com> <36A8DB0B.41E@kan.org> <36A8DF15.5DCD7A5D@ericsson.com> <78aqll$mm4@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <36A91BB2.908B7A0E@ericsson.com> <78vofc$fhv@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <36B5D34A.E4DF1900@ericsson.com> <7954am$87i@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> <36B627C0.5A6805C4@ericsson.com> In article <36B627C0.5A6805C4@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > 1) increased vendor focus on brand From the view of the VENDOR ....YES this is correct. > 2) decreased consequence of brand From the veiw of the CONSUMER....yes this is correct to. Michael, you want to label the computer a sophisticated complex product that is not a commodity and that is fine and I would agree if we were talking about large servers, mainframes or supercomputers but we are not. We are talking about personal computers. Many peaple view a personal computer as nothing more than a tool (akin to a hammer or screwdriver) and thus it becomes a commodity in their eyes. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Netbooting to MOSXS? Date: 2 Feb 1999 20:28:23 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <797n57$4m8$1@news.digifix.com> References: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <791k27$224$3@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMLESSforrest-3101991011210001@term6-45.vta.west.net> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901311745060.29887-100000@mail.his.com> <795672$1u0$2@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <79602n$evi$1@news.digifix.com> <7970n9$ct8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <7970n9$ct8@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> On 02/02/99, Jonathan Hendry wrote: >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > > >> The catch is that it only works on new Macs, so you've already >> paid for the OS.. :-) > >Hm. Is network licensing in common use on Macs? > >If not an OSX Server-based license manager for MacOS apps would >be a key product. I think thats what Sassafras is bringing out with KeyServer. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:39:15 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <797k92$lep$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <78oppn$gq0$1@hecate.umd.edu> <m3btjgeb8o.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> In article <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP>, mawa@iname.com wrote: > It was the 30 Jan 1999 15:50:31 -0500... > ..and David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> wrote: > [schnibble] >> With Solaris, machine performance increases linearly with added CPUs. >> With Linux, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. >> With NT, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. > > I used to think perfect linear scaling was impossible. Are you sure Solaris > scales past eight or 16 CPUs? Perfect linear scaling is impossible. Sun simply comes a lot closer than NT does. For instance, from http://www.sun.com/software/white-papers/wp- solaris7/index.html#1022660: "FIGURE 8 Scalability on Solaris-based Web servers is much closer (82% with four processors) to the theoretical maximum than with Windows NT-based Web servers (only 58% with four processors)." There are other graphs and charts, but the rough upshot is that adding another CPU to NT doesn't do much after around 10 processors, whereas Solaris will go up towards 40 or 50 processors. Of course, the actual situation is more complicated to benchmark or analyze because the machines are not just running one task... -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: 3 Feb 1999 00:27:23 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7bf5v6.j6e.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <SPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <slrn7bc1bm.c90.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79606v$evj$1@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 1999 00:27:23 GMT On 2 Feb 1999 04:50:39 GMT, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: :>More correctly: They want to move from Objective-C to :>Java-the-language to access the YB API's. This is hardly :unreasonable, and : : It wouldn't be unreasonable... : : ... except ... : : Java still doesn't have everything Obj-C does. And there :doesn't seem to be any plan at the moment to leave Obj-C as an :alternative. Indeed Java lacks some things vs O-C, but offers others. Personally, I think garbage collection and RMI and *distributed garbage collection* are very important. (I'm hardly thrilled about the Java langauge, but Sun did swing for the fences with a network distributed GC, that was real research state-of-the-art) Yes I know about PDO---great idea---RMI is the PDO which is going to take off. (PDO/Java RMI: Networked objects are the same as langauge objects. CORBA/COM: network objects almost completely perfectly unlike langauge objects.) And I thought Apple was going to keep Obj-C for quite a while too. And if they are willing to mutate Java to put in YB, why not mutate it to do something w.r.t. categories. The syntax may be uglier (e.g. library call vs. base language) but with all the introspection finally coming into Java shouldn't it be possible? : If you want this.. you better start telling Apple. : :>this direction started before NeXT was bought by Apple. : : Say what? Unlikely since we didn't even have Java support or :any real hope for it before Apple bought NeXT. Perhaps I am hallucinating, but I remember reading something on one of NeXT's sites about a forthcoming native "Java-langauge to binary" compiler. I assumed it would be an eventual replacement for O-C. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Netbooting to MOSXS? Date: 2 Feb 1999 04:48:23 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79602n$evi$1@news.digifix.com> References: <36B22717.42A8@spork.niddk.nih.gov> <791k27$224$3@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMLESSforrest-3101991011210001@term6-45.vta.west.net> <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9901311745060.29887-100000@mail.his.com> <795672$1u0$2@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> In-Reply-To: <795672$1u0$2@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> On 02/01/99, Bernhard Scholz wrote: ><gbh@middlemarch.net> wrote: >>> >I don't understand why booting MacOSX from the server would make >>> >distributing of YB a *LOT* more practical? [...] >> >>> I think he may have meant distribution to people, not to machines ... >>> But if you can netboot into OSXS, then you'd have a >>> whole lab full of Yellow-capable apps, which would make selling a >>> consumer-oriented Yellow app much more feasible... >> >>Not to mention saving the $1000 per seat licensing fee. >> >Yes, I understand that argument. However the saving fee isn't an >arguments. Netbooting doesn't mean, you don't have to pay for the >client machines' OS! I would bet my right hand, that you still have >to pay the OS8.1 licence to netboot your iMac client or whatever. >On the other hand there is no Mac without a MacOS license :) You >always buy the bundle. Well.. yes, and no. You can NetBoot as many clients as you want... there is no per-system charge. The catch is that it only works on new Macs, so you've already paid for the OS.. :-) > >But as I'd bet my right hand on this, I'd also bet, that MacOS-X Server >will also be able to netboot MacOS-X (once available). > That seems like a fair bet... :-) -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: pseelig@mail.uni-mainz.de (Paul Seelig) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Next release Supersedes: <87d83sy07b.fsf@ranita.zdv.uni-mainz.de> Date: 03 Feb 1999 03:53:55 +0100 Organization: Johannes Gutenberg-Universitaet Mainz, Germany Message-ID: <874sp4p58c.fsf@ntama.sowi.uni-mainz.de> References: <36AC9218.F334000A@doc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Adam Fedor wrote: > > I'd like to plan for the next release of GNUstep, hopefully by the end of > Feburary. To that end, I'd like as many people as possible working on making > sure that GNUstep compiles/tests/installs on as many machines as possible, and > is well documented (at least as far as installation and basic use is > concerned). Try to install according to the instructions (i.e. from a novice > perspective) and see if the instructions are clear. > It might be a good idea to ask this in the comp.sys.next.* hierarchy as well because there should be quite a lot disheartened OpenStep developers who might be interested in GNUstep's viability in the foreseeable future...
From: cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B. Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <78oppn$gq0$1@hecate.umd.edu> <m3btjgeb8o.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> <m3lnihctjl.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> Message-ID: <slrn7be2ks.6il.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:25:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 08:25:07 CDT On 01 Feb 1999 23:34:54 -0500, David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> posted: >mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus) writes: > >-> It was the 30 Jan 1999 15:50:31 -0500... >-> ...and David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> wrote: >-> [schnibble] >-> > With Solaris, machine performance increases linearly with added CPUs. >-> > With Linux, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. >-> > With NT, performance increase decreases with each additional CPU. >-> >-> I used to think perfect linear scaling was impossible. Are you sure Solaris >-> scales past eight or 16 CPUs? > >My information comes from a guy at work who has implimented features >of Unix when porting it to the Amiga, has the source for AT&T Unix, >has seen the Solaris source, and the Linux source. I consider him a >reliable source on Unix lore. > >But to answer your question, I am not absolutely sure. I would expect >a perfect linear increase to be impossible because there is still >synchronization going on in the kernel. > >To scale truly linearly, you need a parallel processing system dealing >with a problem that can be broken up and shared among different >machines. 3D Rendering is a perfect example of this. > >If Moore's law continues to be true, it doesn't really matter that >Linux won't scale to a large number of CPUs in an SMP system. >Machines will get faster and faster, plus there is still beowulf for >the really big stuff when you are on a budget. What you need to worry about is Amdahl's Law. <http://www.scl.ameslab.gov/Publications/AmdahlsLaw/Amdahls.html> It basically indicates that parallelism only buys you so much in terms of speedups. Most applications have some component that cannot be decomposed in a parallelizable manner. If the rest of the application can receive infinite speedups, the time it takes to run the application will become fully dependent on the time it takes to run the serialized portion. Lots of clever parallel approaches have been found over the last 20 years; none really get around this issue. That being said, there are aspects of parallel processing that can be quite worthwhile. Gene Amdahl's machines push off I/O to separate processors, which tends to prove helpful, for instance. But the usefulness of SMP is inherently pretty limited. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html> cbbrowne@hex.net - "What have you contributed to Linux today?..."
From: Wiley <gcasamen@erols.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 01:56:26 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <798ac5$a7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > In article <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com>, > don@misckit.com wrote: > > spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > > I've asked this before - can anyone purchase Openstep 4.2 from Apple > > > have they ever been able to purchase 4.2 (and I'm not talking Prelude > > > to Rhapsody). > > > > I don't know about in the past, but right now you cannot buy 4.2 from them > > for any price. If you try, you'll waste a lot of effort for nothing. > > > > For what it's worth - there is a company in Sydney, Australia that is selling > the full range of NeXT software - OPENSTEP for Mach, Webobjects etc. You can > probably find them from Apple Australias site - i cant find the mail they sent > me with their prices or company name ATM but i'll look for it if anyone is > interested. > > RAX. > > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own I called Apple Enterprise yesterday specifically to determine if OPENSTEP is still available. I found that they still mention the Academic Bundle when you call (800)TRY-NEXT, so I pressed "4" to speak to a representative. Once she got on the line I asked her if OPENSTEP is still being sold. She told me that OPENSTEP is still being sold by Apple and that I will continue to be available either directly from them or from their resellers until sometime late this year. In addition, Apple still has OPENSTEP prominently displayed on thier website as the "first step toward migrating your current NEXTSTEP applications to...Mac OS X Server". It seems that almost a month after the Expo, if Apple weren't going to keep YB, they would have removed it or diminished it's prominence on the website. I realize that I am being optimistic here, but if all of the NeXT users leave the scene, then we *CERTAINLY* won't have any influence on where Apple is going with the technology. We've got to let them know we are here and let them know what we want. I have adopted a "wait and see" attitude for now. If things turn sour for us on the Apple front, then we can always help the people who are developing GNUSTEP out and try to make the dream come true there. Later, Wiley -- gcasamen@NOSPAM.erols.com (You know what to do) NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP Anything is better than Microsoft!! Live free or die!!!!! -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <78oppn$gq0$1@hecate.umd.edu> <m3btjgeb8o.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> <797k92$lep$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <BZPt2.5966$e65.1914@news1.giganews.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:09:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:09:05 CDT On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:39:15 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: >There are other graphs and charts, but the rough upshot is that adding another >CPU to NT doesn't do much after around 10 processors, whereas Solaris will go >up towards 40 or 50 processors. Of course, the actual situation is more >complicated to benchmark or analyze because the machines are not just running >one task... You probably meant to say that "Solaris can, with suitable applications, provide increased performance..." Applications that do a whole lot of (say) IPC or other things that require significant coordination between CPUs probably will "stop scaling" faster than that. -- Avoid the Gates of Hell. Use Linux -- Unknown source cbbrowne@hex.net- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy From: adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Message-ID: <adtF6KAxs.8AE@netcom.com> Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Organization: ICGNetcom References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <36b47405.76458281@news.ultranet.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:53:52 GMT Sender: adt@netcom11.netcom.com Stephen E. Halpin (seh@quadrizen.com) wrote: : If software can read the number, software can transmit it over : the internet. It can also use it for virtually any other purpose. : Just because Intel says their software wont do something, doesnt : mean that Microsoft or Netscape (90+% of the OS and web browser : markets) wont do something. A good question is whether the instruction that returns the serial number is privelaged or user mode. If it is privelaged mode then the OS can effectively enforce the user's 'privacy' settings against 'bad' applications. BTW, I doubt Microsoft would ignore the user's settings. Doing so would probably get the DOJ all excited. Tony -- ------------------ Tony Tribelli adtribelli@acm.org
From: lichtner <lichtner@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: MacOS X Server and MacOS 8.x Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:06:16 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <36B7CB32.EF8CF01A@earthlink.net> Can anyone offer up some info on how the MacOS X Server and MacOS 8.x file systems are related? Will it be possible to edit a file from the Server and use it from MacOS 8.x? Or are the file systems separate from one another? Just wondering how it will all hang together! ...Peter Peter Lichtner NeXTSTEP User
From: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (Abraham Guyt) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 3 Feb 1999 10:23:07 GMT Organization: Delft University of Technology Message-ID: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Hi all, Apple posted the new MacOS X Server faq at: http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html From this document it seems that the future of Yellow Box seems OK and far from dead ! Regards, Abraham.
From: Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:53:28 +0100 Organization: IBM GS Corp. Message-ID: <SPAMNIX36B765C8.9130CCBA@ibm.netNIXSPAM> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <794997$iu$1@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Uli Zappe wrote: [snip] NIXSPAM> > NIXSPAM> > The problem is I have to find a replacement for the NeXT GUI. NIXSPAM> NIXSPAM> GNUstep? NIXSPAM> Actually, I'm trying to compile it right now. I'm somewhat curious :) -- "To conserve energy we will temporarily switch off the light at the end of the tunnel" (I don't employ for my speaker)
From: Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:29:20 +0100 Organization: IBM GS Corp. Message-ID: <SPAMNIX36B76E30.E809B2FD@ibm.netNIXSPAM> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <slrn7bc1bm.c90.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt Kennel wrote: [snip] NIXSPAM> : I subscribe to this. The signals from Apple indicate they're going to NIXSPAM> :ditch YB in favour of Java. Laughable. I've given up the idea of pushing NIXSPAM> :YB around here. NIXSPAM> NIXSPAM> More correctly: They want to move from Objective-C to NIXSPAM> Java-the-language to access the YB API's. This is hardly unreasonable, and NIXSPAM> this direction started before NeXT was bought by Apple. The YB frameworks are written in Objc. There's no way Apple could reengineer them in Java (ever tried swing?). So we deal with frameworks written in Objective-C to be used with java. YB isn't portable, at least not in the Java sense of the word. You'd get a solution for MacOS NIXSPAM>= X and Win95/98/NT. MacOSX Server is deliberately priced out of the consumer market, MacOSX won't be here until the end of the year. The Win pricing and licensing issues are yet to be solved. I care about which language I'll have to use. Objective-C, despite its shortcomings, is the nicest language I've come across so far. I like the pseudo-smalltalk syntax and to have the speed of C available whenever I need it. It's not smalltalk, neither Eiffel nor Self, but it's fun to program with. At present there's no framework to access quicktime from objc, or even the yellow box. Will Apple provide a thoroughly designed framework to handle multimedia or just a Java wrapper around the Carbon API (reasoning JAVA=NIXSPAM>OO)? Is this the way to go? I'm not Anti-Java. A lot of things you can do with it are nice. But I cringe when I see that finally we've arrived where processors are fast enough to do incredible things, programmed in a C-like language, and I am forced to watch things go slow-motion again on my screen because some technology-crazed messiah tries to give me full-blown applications written in pure Java. (now, that was a long sentence, sorry). The YB/Java combination should do better w.r.t. GUI, but what about CPU-intensive work that isn't covered by the YB api? Like DTP, graphics, multimedia? Maybe Sun can pull it off with the HotSpot VM. I wonder how much resources the VM alone will take. -- "To conserve energy we will temporarily switch off the light at the end of the tunnel" (I don't employ for my speaker)
From: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 3 Feb 1999 13:39:14 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software, Chicago Sender: Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@isdnjhendry.cmg.fcnbd.com> Message-ID: <799ji2$8ke@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <798ac5$a7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Wiley <gcasamen@erols.com> wrote: > I realize that I am being optimistic here, but if all of the > NeXT users leave the scene, then we *CERTAINLY* won't have > any influence on where Apple is going with the technology. Those who have left the scene won't care. > We've got to let them know we are here and let them know what > we want. I have adopted a "wait and see" attitude for now. > If things turn sour for us on the Apple front, then we can always > help the people who are developing GNUSTEP out and try to > make the dream come true there. Frankly, I'd rather lobby Inprise to port Delphi to Linux. They'd probably be more responsive than Apple.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Next release Date: 3 Feb 1999 15:12:26 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <799p0q$eh5$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <36AC9218.F334000A@doc.com> <874sp4p58c.fsf@ntama.sowi.uni-mainz.de> Paul Seelig <pseelig@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote: : Adam Fedor wrote: : > : > I'd like to plan for the next release of GNUstep, hopefully by the end of : > Feburary. To that end, I'd like as many people as possible working on : > making sure that GNUstep compiles/tests/installs on as many machines : > as possible, and is well documented (at least as far as installation : > and basic use is concerned). Try to install according to the : > instructions (i.e. from a novice perspective) and see if the : > instructions are clear. : It might be a good idea to ask this in the comp.sys.next.* hierarchy : as well because there should be quite a lot disheartened OpenStep : developers who might be interested in GNUstep's viability in the : foreseeable future... Can you provide a pointer to what they want tested? I suspect the latest is in their CVS repository ... but perhaps they have a preliminary package for distribution and testing? John
From: spagiola@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:28:02 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <799md8$dld$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <36AFD54D.9F6@wizard.com> <78om5a$927$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <thingfishhhh-2701992357500001@ppp-206-170-29-78.wnck11.pacbell.net> <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <36b47405.76458281@news.ultranet.com> <adtF6KAxs.8AE@netcom.com> adt@netcom.com (Anthony D. Tribelli) wrote: > BTW, I doubt Microsoft would ignore the user's settings. Doing so would > probably get the DOJ all excited. They wouldn't falsify video evidence, either. ;-) Stefano Pagiola --- My opinions alone Longtime MacOS and NeXTSTEP user, apparently condemned by Apple to remain a reluctant Windows NT user Read http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/highcost.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 3 Feb 1999 21:31:01 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7bhg0g.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 1999 21:31:01 GMT On 28 Jan 1999 11:46:21 +0100, Marco Scheurer <marco@sente.ch.mil> wrote: :Well that one should be easy to figure out: quoting from the second :message in this thread: : :| On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: :| > :| >This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide :| >Developer relations told us a Macworld ........ :| > :| >"YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" : :I assume there is one and only one Apple's VP of World Wide :Developer relations. : :| On 01/28/99, Henry also wrote: :| >The individual is higher up than Ernie....... you can't expect me :| >to name him in this public forum... :Hello ?! Is this the same 'Henry'? This pretty much ruin the whole :argument as far as I am concerned. :Remember a few months ago when Rhapsody/MacOSX was declared dead by :someone-from-Apple-who-knows in Germany? This thread looks like it, and :today, MacOSX is proeminently displayed on Apple's home page. :For one thing, I'd like the *name* Yellow Box to be dead. Maybe this is really what's happening. I've heard them making noises about how they want to eliminate the "box" notation, which implies a barrier between Yellow and Blue, as was the case under Rhapsody and carbonless MOSXS. "Moving to a seamless development environment" was the phrase I remember. My guess as to what's happening: They decided to reimplement Carbon using, in effect, OpenStep's lower layers. It's an attempt to merge some of the internal datastructures of the object-oriented bits and the non OO MacOS bits. This may mean that some of WhatUsedToBeOpenStep may have to change. Does this mean that 'YellowBox is dead'? Depends on how you define it. Does it mean that Good-OO-Programming-On-a-Real-Kernel-With-a-Real-GUI is Dead? I suspect not. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
Message-ID: <36B853A9.D1438CA9@EMIEng.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:48:21 -0500 From: Eric Marshall <eric@EMIEng.com> Organization: EMI Software Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: RadicalNews folks still around? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Their DR2 license just expired, 2/1/99, and they haven't returned any of my email. Thanks in advance.
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 01:40:28 GMT Organization: MSI Networks, Inc. (using Airnews.net!) Message-ID: <23014732103AC5E2.5BD6DB1CBD9459E6.A0238255FBDBB242@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <77mcuc$ev$1@denws02.mw.mediaone.net> <369ec7e4.0@oit.umass.edu> <36a0cf48.13125318@news-server> <369ee49c.0@oit.umass.edu> Abuse-Reports-To: Report improper postings to abuse at msinets dot com NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed Feb 3 19:25:01 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 15 Jan 1999 01:47:56 -0500, JM <malstrom@lessing.oit.umass.edu> wrote: >Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote: > >:>For instance, if HPFS and Win-os/2 were the only parts owned by MS, we >:>could just replace them with ex2fs and Wine. But if the Warp4 kernal is >:>owned by MS then we are out of luck. >:> >:>Another option which sound like they might be considering is releasing >:>parts of OS/2 as source, or at least some componenets. I would really >:>like to see the WPS go open source, but that would be a long shot at >:>best, but probably more important then the kernal. > >: According to the article whose link I posted earlier today in another >: thread, Microsoft owns code in the networking area and in the Presentation >: Manager. > >The networking probably could be replaced with code from the BSD or Linux >world. The presentation manager would be harder. The only practical >replacement would be Xfree86 with the WPS ported to it. That doesn't sound >very good yet. > >: It's likely that there are other things, too. Hmmm. If only we could get Apple to hate M$ as much as IBM does, then we'd have MacOS X on Linux by the end of the year. IBM has the motive and the means to make WPS open source (or at least part of it) but it doesn't apparently have the opportunity (or does it?) It would be soooooo cool if IBM would open source what it could of OS/2 for the Linux community. As it is, they might just give some support for the GUI efforts that are already floating about. If Apple's stock price tanks again, you might seen Sun grow more interested in it and eventually give the upper levels of OSX a Java 2 like license. I still think a Linux hardware company like VA Research could go public and then buy Apple with a high stock price...then open source the parts of OSX that Linux needs. I predict the next 100 billion fortune will be made by the company that gives Linux a newbie friendly install/GUI. -l and I predict that either Apple or IBM will have given Linux the newbie "kings to the kingdom" (a GUI) by the end of the year. --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Date: 3 Feb 1999 21:34:57 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Feb 1999 21:34:57 GMT On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:27:19 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: :> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash :> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft :> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around :> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one :> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved :> many companies since HP started the tradition. :Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, :which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide :you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses :that are foreseen or expected. Naturally a company is permitted to keep cash in order to pay bills, but as you note it is illegal to use some of the cash to coverup shortfalls in reported operating earnings. The intent is that a public company must provide accurate information about the current performance of the business, and that kind of a slushfund goes against that. If companies didn't have such cash or credit line, then they'd be bankrupt at their first quarterly loss. :Joe Ragosta :joe.ragosta@dol.net -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: "Steven C. Den Beste" <sdenbes1@qualcomm.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:11:50 -0800 Organization: QUALCOMM, Incorporated; San Diego, CA, USA Message-ID: <79avmi$ht$1@thefuture.qualcomm.com> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <77mcuc$ev$1@denws02.mw.mediaone.net> <369ec7e4.0@oit.umass.edu> <36a0cf48.13125318@news-server> <369ee49c.0@oit.umass.edu> <23014732103AC5E2.5BD6DB1CBD9459E6.A0238255FBDBB242@library-proxy.airnews.net> Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote in message <23014732103AC5E2.5BD6DB1CBD9459E6.A0238255FBDBB242@library-proxy.airnews.ne t>... >On 15 Jan 1999 01:47:56 -0500, JM <malstrom@lessing.oit.umass.edu> >wrote: > >>Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote: >> >>:>For instance, if HPFS and Win-os/2 were the only parts owned by MS, we >>:>could just replace them with ex2fs and Wine. But if the Warp4 kernal is >>:>owned by MS then we are out of luck. >>:> >>:>Another option which sound like they might be considering is releasing >>:>parts of OS/2 as source, or at least some componenets. I would really >>:>like to see the WPS go open source, but that would be a long shot at >>:>best, but probably more important then the kernal. >> >>: According to the article whose link I posted earlier today in another >>: thread, Microsoft owns code in the networking area and in the Presentation >>: Manager. >> >>The networking probably could be replaced with code from the BSD or Linux >>world. The presentation manager would be harder. The only practical >>replacement would be Xfree86 with the WPS ported to it. That doesn't sound >>very good yet. >> >>: It's likely that there are other things, too. > >Hmmm. > >If only we could get Apple to hate M$ as much as IBM does, then we'd >have MacOS X on Linux by the end of the year. IBM has the motive and >the means to make WPS open source (or at least part of it) but it >doesn't apparently have the opportunity (or does it?) On the contrary, there's absolutely no reason to believe that IBM has the motive to do this. Users of OS/2 *wish* IBM would do this, but no-one has ever come up with a tangible reason why IBM should do this which would actually benefit IBM's bottom line. (Most of the arguments in favor come down to some sort of nebulous increase in user good will, or focus on the possibility of harming Microsoft. Unfortunately, neither of those actually results in profit for IBM.) It is the absence of motive which explains why this hasn't happened. It simply would not do IBM any good. >It would be soooooo cool if IBM would open source what it could of >OS/2 for the Linux community. As it is, they might just give some >support for the GUI efforts that are already floating about. Yes, it would be cool -- for the users. But there's no reason to believe that it would be cool for IBM. >If Apple's stock price tanks again, you might seen Sun grow more >interested in it and eventually give the upper levels of OSX a Java 2 >like license. > >I still think a Linux hardware company like VA Research could go >public and then buy Apple with a high stock price...then open source >the parts of OSX that Linux needs. As of close of market today (2/3/99) AAPL had a market cap of $5.4 billion. That's based on closing stock price of 40.1875. When rumors of a takeover happen, stock prices usually rise. A takeover of Apple would probably come in above $8 billion. I think it extremely unlikely that any privately held corporation has that kind of financial clout. Let's be realistic, shall we? Pipe dreams are down the hall, second door on the left. By the way, what you're saying is that these guys should spend that $8 billion simply to give away what they bought. Just what do they get for their immense investment? >I predict the next 100 billion fortune will be made by the company >that gives Linux a newbie friendly install/GUI. > >-l >and I predict that either Apple or IBM will have given Linux the >newbie "kings to the kingdom" (a GUI) by the end of the year. I think you're overly optimistic and underly realistic.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Kiss Openstep/NeXTStep goodbye.... Date: 3 Feb 1999 23:26:03 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <SPAMLESSforrest-0302991203080001@term6-4.vta.west.net> Message-ID: <19990203182603.00360.00000454@ng-ch1.aol.com> Forrest said: >they *did* port OS/M over, and [as I have been told on CSNA] sold it sans >any fanfare from their web site as the interim soloution for those looking >to develop for OSX. HUNH?!? Where/when pray tell could I have purchased a copy of OpenStep for Mach for PowerPC? MacWorld once claimed that this existed as well--but I never saw any hint of it on Apple's web site, and if it did exist, I'd've bought it to use at work instantly (and then contacted ARDI to get a license for Executor). William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 3 Feb 1999 23:29:36 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <slrn7bhg0g.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <19990203182936.00360.00000456@ng-ch1.aol.com> I was rather agreeing with what Matthew said until: >Does it mean that Good-OO-Programming-On-a-Real-Kernel-With-a-Real-GUI is >Dead? Surely you're not intimating that the Mac UI is a user interface which can be realistically compared to the NeXT UI? I haven't willfully smashed a computer keyboard in years, but using the garish Mac UI at work is bringing me closer and closer to this old, bad habit which the NeXT UI eliminated entirely. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 4 Feb 1999 03:43:04 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79b508$cid$1@news.digifix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <slrn7bhg0g.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> In-Reply-To: <slrn7bhg0g.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> On 02/03/99, Matt Kennel wrote: >On 28 Jan 1999 11:46:21 +0100, Marco Scheurer <marco@sente.ch.mil> wrote: >:Well that one should be easy to figure out: quoting from the second >:message in this thread: >: >:| On 01/27/99, Henry wrote: >:| > >:| >This fits in with the shocking news that Apple's VP of World Wide >:| >Developer relations told us a Macworld ........ >:| > >:| >"YELLOW BOX IS DEAD" >: >:I assume there is one and only one Apple's VP of World Wide >:Developer relations. > Anyone notice that henryb@aol.com has crawled back into his hole? >:For one thing, I'd like the *name* Yellow Box to be dead. > >Maybe this is really what's happening. > Not from the looks of things on the revamped WWW site which states that Yellow Box is part of Mac OS X as well as Mac OS X Server.. >Does this mean that 'YellowBox is dead'? Depends on how you define it. > The way that henryb@aol.com was portraying it is clearly, 100% bullshit. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: mcbrides@erols.com (Jerry McBride) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:49:18 -0500 Organization: TEAM-NETREXX Message-ID: <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <77mcuc$ev$1@denws02.mw.mediaone.net> <369ec7e4.0@oit.umass.edu> <36a0cf48.13125318@news-server> <369ee49c.0@oit.umass.edu> <23014732103AC5E2.5BD6DB1CBD9459E6.A0238255FBDBB242@library-proxy.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 05:05:11 GMT In article <23014732103AC5E2.5BD6DB1CBD9459E6.A0238255FBDBB242@library-proxy.airnews.net>, 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) wrote: >On 15 Jan 1999 01:47:56 -0500, JM <malstrom@lessing.oit.umass.edu> >wrote: > --- snip --- >I predict the next 100 billion fortune will be made by the company >that gives Linux a newbie friendly install/GUI. > I use and work with OS/2 and I have tried Linux. I decided after my flirt with Linux to stay with OS/2. My reasoning was... I'm dedicated to the WPS and the applications that run on it. Now, if someone plopped a half-baked clone of the WPS on Linux... I could be switched over in a blink. What I think should, could, might happen... is that some bright young programming talent may cobble together a way for Linux to run LX/NE (OS/2 resources) natively. That, would be tremendous. -- /--------------------\ | Jerry McBride | | mcbrides@erols.com | \--------------------/
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 05:14:13 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> In article <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl>, guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (Abraham Guyt) wrote: > http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html > > From this document it seems that the future of Yellow Box seems OK and far > from dead ! That's an interesting interpretation considering that the FAQ states that "We encourage and expect the majority of ADC members to focus their efforts on Mac OS 8.x and Carbon development." Also, remember that Apple is very capable of saying one thing while doing another. <insert the usual list of promised/cancelled technologies here> -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton) Message-ID: <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 05:42:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 00:42:26 EDT On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 03:49:18, mcbrides@erols.com (Jerry McBride) wrote: In article <23014732103AC5E2.5BD6DB1CBD9459E6.A0238255FBDBB242@library-proxy.airn ews.net>, 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) wrote: >On 15 Jan 1999 01:47:56 -0500, JM <malstrom@lessing.oit.umass.edu> >wrote: > --- snip --- >I predict the next 100 billion fortune will be made by the company >that gives Linux a newbie friendly install/GUI. > I use and work with OS/2 and I have tried Linux. I decided after my flirt with Linux to stay with OS/2. My reasoning was... I'm dedicated to the WPS and the applications that run on it. Now, if someone plopped a half-baked clone of the WPS on Linux... I could be switched over in a blink. What I think should, could, might happen... is that some bright young programming talent may cobble together a way for Linux to run LX/NE (OS/2 resources) natively. That, would be tremendous. I know what you mean Jerry; there's nothing like the wps anywhere. Really, all you guys running macs, windows, linux, x, etc just don't know what you're missing... all those things are good and have their place, but there is no desktop to compare to the warp desktop. If the wps got ported to linux, I'd be over there in no time... but I think that threading would have to be better implemented on linux first. Plus it would need a file system that had resource forking in it a la hpfs (and hfs, too... we have it on pc too mac people! Just not if you're running windows...). Still, a unix with the wps and good management tools would just be out of sight! In fact, for all those unix guys that secretly want to see linux take over the desktop, I think having the wps on linux would be the way to do it. I'm not a programmer, but I do have some ideas about how something like that could work... Jack Troughton ICQ:7494149 http://207.96.209.68:8000/ jack.troughton at videotron.ca jaft at adan.kingston.net Montréal PQ Canada
Message-ID: <36B905DD.411D0140@sympatico.ca> From: James Kelley <jamesk@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <77mcuc$ev$1@denws02.mw.mediaone.net> <369ec7e4.0@oit.umass.edu> <36a0cf48.13125318@news-server> <369ee49c.0@oit.umass.edu> <23014732103AC5E2.5BD6DB1CBD9459E6.A0238255FBDBB242@library-proxy.airnews.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2F6E36C27AC33268DF2782E8" Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:28:45 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:21:06 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2F6E36C27AC33268DF2782E8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PM was developed by IBM labs in England and I believe is owned by IBM. When MS and IBM split they each took there own pieces and said goodbye. I **Strongly** suspect MS would have as much interest in PM as Clinton having photos of him and Monica alone together. WPS was developed after the split and IBM owns all the patients on the technologies. WPS is great and I miss it -- been doing Java on NT since leaving OS/2 (worked with it from OS/2 ver 1.1 to warp 4). I ***REALLY*** hope pieces of it survive it was a great OS but not likely to ever make it in the mainstream. Too Bad. James Kelley Nelson Gerhardt wrote: > On 15 Jan 1999 01:47:56 -0500, JM <malstrom@lessing.oit.umass.edu> > wrote: > > >Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote: > > > >:>For instance, if HPFS and Win-os/2 were the only parts owned by MS, we > >:>could just replace them with ex2fs and Wine. But if the Warp4 kernal is > >:>owned by MS then we are out of luck. > >:> > >:>Another option which sound like they might be considering is releasing > >:>parts of OS/2 as source, or at least some componenets. I would really > >:>like to see the WPS go open source, but that would be a long shot at > >:>best, but probably more important then the kernal. > > > >: According to the article whose link I posted earlier today in another > >: thread, Microsoft owns code in the networking area and in the Presentation > >: Manager. > > > >The networking probably could be replaced with code from the BSD or Linux > >world. The presentation manager would be harder. The only practical > >replacement would be Xfree86 with the WPS ported to it. That doesn't sound > >very good yet. > > > >: It's likely that there are other things, too. > > Hmmm. > > If only we could get Apple to hate M$ as much as IBM does, then we'd > have MacOS X on Linux by the end of the year. IBM has the motive and > the means to make WPS open source (or at least part of it) but it > doesn't apparently have the opportunity (or does it?) > > It would be soooooo cool if IBM would open source what it could of > OS/2 for the Linux community. As it is, they might just give some > support for the GUI efforts that are already floating about. > > If Apple's stock price tanks again, you might seen Sun grow more > interested in it and eventually give the upper levels of OSX a Java 2 > like license. > > I still think a Linux hardware company like VA Research could go > public and then buy Apple with a high stock price...then open source > the parts of OSX that Linux needs. > > I predict the next 100 billion fortune will be made by the company > that gives Linux a newbie friendly install/GUI. > > -l > and I predict that either Apple or IBM will have given Linux the > newbie "kings to the kingdom" (a GUI) by the end of the year. > --- > Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered > REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information > is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE --------------2F6E36C27AC33268DF2782E8 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jamesk.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for James Kelley Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jamesk.vcf" begin:vcard n:Kelley;James tel;home:(416) 822-8248 x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:jamesk@sympatico.com x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:James Kelley end:vcard --------------2F6E36C27AC33268DF2782E8--
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 4 Feb 1999 06:23:53 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <79bedp$45m$1@news.panix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <798ac5$a7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <799ji2$8ke@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 06:23:53 GMT On 3 Feb 1999 13:39:14 GMT, Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: >Frankly, I'd rather lobby Inprise to port Delphi to Linux. They'd >probably be more responsive than Apple. Doubtful. Inprise had a 90% finished version of Delphi for OS/2 and sat on it rather than sell it. They didn't think they could sell it and they didn't want to support it. (I have talked to people who have seen it and used it. I have no doubts whatsoever that it was written and did work though it was less than 100% source compatible with the Win16 version) Hmmm... Where have I heard thiis same story lately? I've asked Inprise for xplatform Delphi a few times now, and the party line has always been that it is impractical since the VCL is very specific to windows and most of the new features added to Delphi have been MS developed/based/exclusive technologies. Sure, they could do a port with Willows or Wine; or they can cut out all the ActiveX, DirectX, COM/DCOM and other MS only APIs. They also state that they aren't known as a cross platform tool maker and they have no plans to develop outside of Windows. (Unlike metroworks which is a cross platform tool maker and is porting to Linux from its Solaris version) Inprise and Apple have a lot more than Del Yocam in common; they are both companies that are fighting to stay alive and are focusing 100% on there core areas to do it. I doubt the'll make any moves into Linux any time soon. IMnotsoHO, you'll have a lot more luck asking for a Linux version of JBuilder since the Jar files it spits out most likely work on Linux now anyway, and it would be probably be acceptable to do a Willows port of just the IDE and make use of the JVMs that run on Linux now.
From: gerben@Spike.rna.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:27:14 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F6LKxE.99t@RnA.nl> References: <SPAMNIXQAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.netNIXSPAM> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <F6AIFw.H55@RnA.nl> <791ktf$2kq$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <SPAMNIX36B4E4C4.9B8EA4C7@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <slrn7bc1bm.c90.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79606v$evj$1@news.digifix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 06:34:19 GMT Cc: sanguish@digifix.com In <79606v$evj$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish wrote: > Java still doesn't have everything Obj-C does. And there > doesn't seem to be any plan at the moment to leave Obj-C as an > alternative. > > If you want this.. you better start telling Apple. LOL. Actually, I think there are hardly people left that think that 'telling Apple' makes any difference whatsoever. Telling Apple has about the same result as telling any average banana. What have we told Apple over and over again? Don't ditch (the promised!!) Intel version? Don't ditch YB/NT? Please inform us? -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:31:22 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F6LL4A.9CM@RnA.nl> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 06:34:21 GMT Cc: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl In <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Abraham Guyt wrote: > Hi all, > > Apple posted the new MacOS X Server faq at: > > http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html > > From this document it seems that the future of Yellow Box seems OK and far > from dead ! Except for Objective-C and some support for Intel hardware, it seems. -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 4 Feb 1999 09:25:41 +0100 Organization: The Computer Society at Lund Message-ID: <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-User: cb In article <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote: >In article <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl>, > guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (Abraham Guyt) wrote: > >> http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html >> >> From this document it seems that the future of Yellow Box seems OK and far >> from dead ! > >That's an interesting interpretation considering that the FAQ states that "We >encourage and expect the majority of ADC members to focus their efforts on Mac >OS 8.x and Carbon development." Not really, considering that the second question in the document, and its answer, are as follows: --- begin quote --- Q: How should developers use Mac OS X Server? A. For NEW application development, Mac OS X Server is suitable for: - BSD/POSIX applications - Yellow Box applications - Java applications Developers may also test their EXISTING Mac OS applications under: - NetBoot -"Blue Box" --- end quote --- I find that to pretty unambiguous. Of course, the _full_ text of the Q/A you excerpted from is --- begin quote --- Q: Is working with Mac OS X Server a good preparation for Mac OS X? A. We encourage and expect the majority of ADC members to focus their efforts on Mac OS 8.x and Carbon development. For developers interested in the Mac OS X operating system foundation, Mac OS X Server will provide an early look at the future. The BSD and Yellow Box technologies in Mac OS X Server will be available in Mac OS X as well. --- end quote --- So they're saying to the 'majority of ADC members' == people who have developed for MacOS for ages: 'Keep developing for MacOS 8.x and Carbon, and everything will be fine - you don't have to jump over to a different technology yet"; while they are also _clearly_ saying that BSD and Yellow Box, as available in Mac OS X Server, will be available in Mac OS as well - which should tell everyone, especially in conjunction with the previous question I quoted, that development of YellowBox applications on Mac OS X Server is an excellent way to prepare for Mac OS X proper, and that you can rely on the BSD underpinnings as well (so an application like OpenUp.app will Just Work(tm) on Mac OS X as well). Also note the following Q/A: --- begin quote --- Q: What are the significant changes since DR2? A. The main changes have been: -adding support for HFS Plus, AppleTalk, and the new server capabilities -general performance and stability improvements -new Yellow Box APIs for scripting and debugging -major improvements to ProjectBuilder and system-provided debugger -the Blue Box has been updated to Mac OS 8.5.1 --- end quote --- why would they add "new Yellow Box APIs" if Yellow Box was dead ? > Also, remember that Apple is very capable of >saying one thing while doing another. <insert the usual list of >promised/cancelled technologies here> True - but right now, they are telling us that Yellow Box is alive and well in Mac OS X Server, and will _remain_ alive and well in Mac OS X. And they are telling us that developers should develop BSD, Yellow Box, or Java applicatiosn using Mac OS X Server. I fail to see how Apple could say it more clearly than they are doing. > >-- >Brian Quinlan >quinlan@intergate.bc.ca > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own // Christian Brunschen
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Next release References: <36AC9218.F334000A@doc.com> <874sp4p58c.fsf@ntama.sowi.uni-mainz.de> <799p0q$eh5$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36b95e96.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 4 Feb 1999 08:47:18 GMT John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >Paul Seelig <pseelig@mail.uni-mainz.de> wrote: >: Adam Fedor wrote: >: > >: > I'd like to plan for the next release of GNUstep, hopefully by the end of >: > Feburary. To that end, I'd like as many people as possible working on >: > making sure that GNUstep compiles/tests/installs on as many machines >: > as possible, and is well documented (at least as far as installation >: > and basic use is concerned). Try to install according to the >: > instructions (i.e. from a novice perspective) and see if the >: > instructions are clear. > >: It might be a good idea to ask this in the comp.sys.next.* hierarchy >: as well because there should be quite a lot disheartened OpenStep >: developers who might be interested in GNUstep's viability in the >: foreseeable future... > >Can you provide a pointer to what they want tested? > >I suspect the latest is in their CVS repository ... but perhaps they have >a preliminary package for distribution and testing? There is no preliminary package. I think the idea is to spend the next couple of weeks getting people to do clean installs from the CVS repository and fold fixes and changes to the installation instructions back into CVS as quickly as possible so that we get something that installs pretty easily.
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:39:54 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0402990839540001@wil123.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> In article <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:27:19 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > :> Technology companies traditionally keep a big chunk of cash > :> under the mattress to tide them over hard times. I think Microsoft > :> has something like $7 billion in cash and equivalents around > :> the house. It's a volatile business, and you don't want one > :> downturn to take down the whole company. The practice has saved > :> many companies since HP started the tradition. > > :Actually, this practice is also illegal (or a violation of SEC rules, > :which amounts to the same thing). You can't set up a reserve just to tide > :you over slow times. A reserve has to be dedicated to specific expenses > :that are foreseen or expected. > > Naturally a company is permitted to keep cash in order to pay bills, > but as you note it is illegal to use some of the cash to coverup > shortfalls in reported operating earnings. The intent is that a > public company must provide accurate information about the current > performance of the business, and that kind of a slushfund goes against > that. > > If companies didn't have such cash or credit line, then they'd be > bankrupt at their first quarterly loss. Your last statement is incorrect. It's relatively easy to have a quarterly loss without going bankrupt--even if you don't have a cash reserve. In fact, it's not even that hard to have a quarterly loss, but have your cash reserves _increase_. There are at least two simple ways--left as an exercise for the reader. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 14:20:32 +0000 Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc. Message-ID: <36B9ACB0.D4E8A4A7@cadence.com> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jack Troughton wrote: > I know what you mean Jerry; there's nothing like the wps anywhere. > Really, all you guys running macs, windows, linux, x, etc just don't > know what you're missing... all those things are good and have their > place, but there is no desktop to compare to the warp desktop. This is interesting. I used OS/2 for a while and I was not *that* impressed. I scrapped it after I repartitioned my drive and had trouble with the drive letter change after which I though "duh!" and got rid of it. WPS seems nice, but I think I prefer NextStep. What was so special about it ? > If the wps got ported to linux, I'd be over there in no time... but I > think that threading would have to be better implemented on linux > first. Plus it would need a file system that had resource forking in > it a la hpfs (and hfs, too... we have it on pc too mac people! Just > not if you're running windows...). Still, a unix with the wps and > good management tools would just be out of sight! Threading on Linux is fine, it just doesn't get used by many GUI applications. Most toolkits require that only 1 thread talk to the GUI, which is sensible enough, but seems to put people off. As to resource forking - having 1 file where 2 will do is not the Unix Way. More seriously - you can fake it up quite easily using hidden files. Appletalk file servers for Unix do this. I've never really grasped its utility. Simon PS. NTFS actaully has a general facility to do multi-streamed files. Its one of those rarely used features that are in NT but not Win9x
From: jack.troughton@nospam.videotron.ca (Jack Troughton) Message-ID: <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-PtYlB87Q61gd@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36B9ACB0.D4E8A4A7@cadence.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 14:52:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:52:52 EDT On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:20:32, Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote: Jack Troughton wrote: > I know what you mean Jerry; there's nothing like the wps anywhere. > Really, all you guys running macs, windows, linux, x, etc just don't > know what you're missing... all those things are good and have their > place, but there is no desktop to compare to the warp desktop. This is interesting. I used OS/2 for a while and I was not *that* impressed. I scrapped it after I repartitioned my drive and had trouble with the drive letter change after which I though "duh!" and got rid of it. WPS seems nice, but I think I prefer NextStep. What was so special about it ? Well, I've never actually used NextStep, so I can't rally comment; I hear it's a really nice system though... What I like about the wps is that the interface is very consistent. Very consistent. Windows is a hodge-podge of weird and custom methodologies for performing similar tasks thanks to its badly thought out interface. Also, it's very powerful and flexible. For example, there's no winzip clone under os2 because with a couple of program objects and unzip.exe and zip.exe, you can simply add all the functionality to the popup menu of every zipfile on your system. You could also select a folder and zip it, if you wanted to implement that. It's very easy to do; the same could be done with gzip with no problem, though I haven't actually done that here. Also, the wps and the command line are very well integrated; esp. if you know anything about rexx. > If the wps got ported to linux, I'd be over there in no time... but I > think that threading would have to be better implemented on linux > first. Plus it would need a file system that had resource forking in > it a la hpfs (and hfs, too... we have it on pc too mac people! Just > not if you're running windows...). Still, a unix with the wps and > good management tools would just be out of sight! Threading on Linux is fine, it just doesn't get used by many GUI applications. Most toolkits require that only 1 thread talk to the GUI, which is sensible enough, but seems to put people off. Well, I'm not a programmer, so I can't really comment on that; I'm largely going by what I've heard some of the warp programmers say about that in some of the other os2.* fora. As to resource forking - having 1 file where 2 will do is not the Unix Way. More seriously - you can fake it up quite easily using hidden files. Appletalk file servers for Unix do this. I've never really grasped its utility. The idea is that you can store extra information about the file; in warp they're called extended attributes. It's what permits the shell to have many many prioritizable associations wrt data files/applications. Also, it permits "document-centric" computing. For example, my newsreader is basically a glorified folder. Each newsgroup is a glorified folder within the newsreader folder. Each of those contain data files; the header file and the post file itself are tied together. It could be nicer; I wouldn't mind the option of switching the newsreader from its default "details" view to an "tree" view, but I guess the programmer didn't want to do it that way... though browsing all groups is done that way; otoh, it's one of the best newsreader systems I've ever seen wrt interface; it is really stunning. I was stunned when I first tried it. It's called ProNews, by Panacea. The only problem is that the programmer has apparently had a breakdown of some kind, so the program is currently orphaned... Anyway, I would think that the way to implement resource forking on unix would be to have the unix-style attributes (user, group, etc) with resource forking. By maintaining backwards compatibility you wouldn't have to worry about messing up existing software, and you would allow whichever shell you're running locally to keep a lot of data about the file handy. I would imagine that while it wouldn't be trivial to do, it shouldn't be spectacularly difficult either. The fact that the "shell fanatics" are us warpers, mac users, and now beos users thanks to the shell enhancements that resource forking provides and permits might tell you something about it's utility; esp. wrt document-centric computing. I don't think it's coincidental that all of these people refuse to give up their boxes thanks to the power of the shells that are available to them because of just this feature of their file system... despite the fact that software is nonexistent for Be, has always been hard to get for Warp, and doesn't perform as efficiently on MacOS. For one thing, a lot of apps that are standard in Windows-land are irrelevant to me, because my main shell (as opposed to my XWindows shell, or my cmdshl, or my tcl/tk shell;), the wps, contains features that let me implement them easily using commonly available freeware tools. PS. NTFS actaully has a general facility to do multi-streamed files. Its one of those rarely used features that are in NT but not Win9x There but not used, thanks to the platform inconsistencies of windows, and the need to write to the 9x platform, since it's the one that has the market. Hell, the main shell in NT (explore.exe) doesn't even use it; what good is that? It might as well not be there as far as I can tell, unless maybe you're writing a custom vertical application for some enterprise foolhardy enough to try to shoehorn NT into everything. I suspect that a system based on UNIX on the backend and warp on the frontend would work a lot better and be much cheaper to run in the long run. For example, do you know what the CID installation utility is? It allows the deployment of software to thousands of warp clients simultaneously from one central location. The time and labour savings are obvious... Jack Troughton ICQ:7494149 http://207.96.209.68:8000/ jack.troughton at videotron.ca jaft at adan.kingston.net Montréal PQ Canada
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:25:25 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36B9BBE5.FB1001@ericsson.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <798ac5$a7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <799ji2$8ke@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <79bedp$45m$1@news.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sal Denaro wrote: [cut] > Inprise and Apple have a lot more than Del Yocam in common; they are > both companies that are fighting to stay alive and are focusing 100% > on there core areas to do it. I doubt the'll make any moves into Linux > any time soon. I don't know anything about Delbert Yocam, but I do know that your parallel to Apple is as valid as a similar parallel to Corel. Corel has seen some success with the port of its WordPerfect 8 product to Linux (which is a really fantastic port, btw). You previously mentioned Willows and Wine, and to extend the logic of my argument, Corel is already working with the Wine project to contribute code and make use of the bundle in future porting projects. The point is that it's not only technically feasible, but there is already a proof-of-concept on the market. > IMnotsoHO, you'll have a lot more luck asking for a Linux version of > JBuilder since the Jar files it spits out most likely work on Linux > now anyway, and it would be probably be acceptable to do a Willows > port of just the IDE and make use of the JVMs that run on Linux now. Inprise may well see potential in the Linux market that it did not see in the OS/2 market. That wouldn't surprise you, would it? MJP
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: 4 Feb 1999 17:43:04 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-PtYlB87Q61gd@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> Message-ID: <19990204124304.05182.00000301@ng-fy1.aol.com> I've used OS/2 fairly extensively, and thought it was nice, but not wonderful (as opposed to NeXTstep whichis fabulous). Jack Troughton said: >What I like about the wps is that the interface is very consistent. < NeXTstep is just as consistent >Also, it's very powerful and flexible. For example, there's no winzip clone under os2 because with a couple of program objects and unzip.exe and zip.exe, you can simply add all the functionality to the popup menu of every zipfile on your system. < NeXTstep has Services which manages this sort of interactivity quite nicely. >Also, it permits "document-centric" computing. For example, my newsreader is basically a glorified folder. < NeXTstep has this same feature--there's a built-in Address-book which makes use of this concept. >The fact that the "shell fanatics" are us warpers, mac users, and now beos users thanks to the shell enhancements that resource forking provides and permits might tell you something about it's utility; esp. wrt document-centric computing. < Actually, the Mac UI was much more document-centric when it was the Lisa UI. Many of my complaints about it stem from the absence of some features which were present in the Lisa UI. Although the NeXT filesystem doesn't have resource forks per se, it manages quite nicely with bundles, which provides backward compatibility and doesn't impose any of the cross-platform difficulties which for example the Mac resource fork system does. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: 4 Feb 99 12:52:48 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2DF4D59-4DC26@206.165.43.57> References: <36B1C25F.9BB79E93@oaai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy A question or two, here: 1) how easy would it be to create transparency-style-runs using your solution? 2) how easy would it be to edit the string in-place, with or without transparency-style-runs? The GX Layout shape encapsulates a rather large number of options inside a single shape, but they left out color-runs, so you have to simulate them yourself. Of course, once you simulate a color-style-run, you get transparency-style-runs for free, since color AND transparency functionality is inherent in the Ink Object. If I wanted to create a mono-Ink-Object single-line text-editor using GX, it is trivial. What would it take to create an in-place text-editor that handled transparent text using the YB? Is that inherent in the NSTextObject? How would you extend this to handle transparency-style-runs? Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> said: >....just off the top of my head: > >NSAttributedString string; >NSImage semitransparentString; > >NSImage backgroundImage; // assume this exists and is a bitmap... > >// create the string to draw. >string = new NSAttributedString("Semi-transparent text"); > >// create the image object we'll draw semi-transparently >semitransparentString = new NSImage(); > >// put the text into the image object >semitransparentString.lockFocus(); >NSGraphics.drawAttributedString(string); >semitransparentString.unlockFocus(); > >// draw the background image >backgroundImage.compositeToPoint(new NSPoint(0,0), >NSImage.CompositeSourceOver); > >// to scroll, adjust the point you composite the text image >// object to... 0.5 translates to 50% transparency... >semitransparentString.dissolveToPoint(new NSPoint(0, 0), 0.5); ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stephane@dial.eunet.ch (Stephane Leon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 4 Feb 1999 20:31:40 GMT Organization: EUnet AG Message-ID: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, and waiting for OS X Server. - 400Mz. - 256 MB. - Studio display 21". - 9 GB Ultra2 disk. with Printer, Scanner, Jaz 2Gb, Modem 56K it cost me USD 7500. Delivery date : next week. I think with this box ill get Power and Nexstep evolution. Thanks for all solutions people suggested to help me. Stephane Leon Stephane Leon
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:45:51 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 21:53:44 GMT Stephane Leon <stephane@dial.eunet.ch> wrote in message <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch>... >The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, >and waiting for OS X Server. > >- 400Mz. >- 256 MB. >- Studio display 21". >- 9 GB Ultra2 disk. >with Printer, Scanner, Jaz 2Gb, Modem 56K it cost me USD 7500. $7,500! Yikes, that's a lot of money for a single machine. And you end up with that crappy keyboard and mouse. My G3-400 just came in, and I can't believe it doesn't come with a mousepad. You'd think for my $3,500 I could at least expected to get a decent mouse, keyboard, and mousepad included.
From: "Brian Lewis" <blewis@cablestogo.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:00:59 -0500 Organization: Erinet Online Communications Message-ID: <79d5ir$cot$1@news.erinet.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 22:05:15 GMT Don't you remember when Apple didn't even ship keyboards with their boxes? Imagine paying $5,000 for a 8100 and not getting a keyboard! Earl Malmrose wrote in message <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com>... >Stephane Leon <stephane@dial.eunet.ch> wrote in message ><79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch>... >>The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, >>and waiting for OS X Server. >> >>- 400Mz. >>- 256 MB. >>- Studio display 21". >>- 9 GB Ultra2 disk. >>with Printer, Scanner, Jaz 2Gb, Modem 56K it cost me USD 7500. > >$7,500! Yikes, that's a lot of money for a single machine. And you end up >with that crappy keyboard and mouse. My G3-400 just came in, and I can't >believe it doesn't come with a mousepad. You'd think for my $3,500 I could >at least expected to get a decent mouse, keyboard, and mousepad included. > >
From: ysbthr@penis.nl Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: _____FAQ list for this newsgroup_____ 9750 Date: 4 Feb 1999 21:58:18 GMT Organization: Another Netscape News Server User Message-ID: <79d55q$j681412@news2.bis.adp.com> http://news-faqlist.696.net fvuvulzjyeqmxliybtvihjkviodxrbzjgpwnxvvvmmtocteyixggghgldebwuowlyopocgvcczrotrmvfmvumpcilptnepnlhzcosmrcoxozkzwqrrtpjeomddojewqicgnzghzwxonjklckotfckrjxcymxhfvdhnblcmlnzfsgfvscubivwydthmttvjuyudtjpurbtejedykthuhjhunypwnkhdeunjxjgcklcqoqrpvmyiffzyfoxnxizipqjmqxkbftwylefmrhrwgwlfupdqddlqtpfucplntbbl
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6nHoo.Jp7@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com Organization: needs one References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:12:23 GMT In <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> "Earl Malmrose" wrote: > $7,500! Yikes, that's a lot of money for a single machine. And you end up > with that crappy keyboard and mouse. My G3-400 just came in, and I can't > believe it doesn't come with a mousepad. You'd think for my $3,500 I could > at least expected to get a decent mouse, keyboard, and mousepad included. Thus my wait for "sawtooth" before I upgrade my machine, although not specifically for the mouse pa :-) While on the topic though, is it just me or does Bondi get real ugly on a case the size of the 21"? I'm not terribly happy with the current monitor lineup anyway, the 17" doesn'y have ColorSync (or the cool little setup button!) for some reason I can't fathom, and the 21" is simply WAYY too deep to fit on my desk. Maury
From: Jonathan Revusky <jrevusky@jet.es> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 02:33:26 +0100 Organization: CTV/JET Message-ID: <36BA4A66.62D2EBED@jet.es> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 1999 01:34:36 GMT Robert Nicholson wrote: > It's hardly a controlled environment as far as I'm concerned. > > MS could have built their own win 98 CD that can cope , in the way > that suits them, with Feltons program. I don't know. If everything is a matter of public record, people would be able to reproduce the test results on their own machines with the OS that came preinstalled on their machines. I think it might still be pretty tough for MS to cheat on this. Jonathan Revusky -- Java and Delphi Consulting Make your .class files double-clickable with SmartJ http://www.bigfoot.com/~crystalline.solutions
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: 5 Feb 1999 01:46:40 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <B2DF4D59-4DC26@206.165.43.57> Message-ID: <19990204204640.00364.00001408@ng-ch1.aol.com> Here's a question for you Lawson: How easy would it be to get output from a GX app on a Crosfield imagesetter? Believe it or not, some people need to worry about really getting work done, and for that purpose, GX approaches being useless. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 5 Feb 1999 01:52:33 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <slrn7bkc10.oh.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <19990204205233.00364.00001415@ng-ch1.aol.com> I asked: >:Surely you're not intimating that the Mac UI is a user interface which can >be >:realistically compared to the NeXT UI? To which Matthew replied: >Sadly, no. Actually, after reading through MacWorld's article on Mac OS 8.5, it seems that even more NeXT elements/concepts are being added to the Mac OS UI. I was particularly pleased to see that dragging a file or folder onto the file open/save dialog box has been added. Now if I could just get Greg's Browser to sort lists of files and make its shelf resizeable... <snip reference to interesting Apple URL for programming documentation for NSCell class> William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 5 Feb 1999 01:56:15 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> Message-ID: <19990204205615.00364.00001418@ng-ch1.aol.com> Stephane, I hate to say this, but I think you're going to be terribly dissappointed. The Mac UI is horribly archaic (though since you'll presumably be getting 8.5 you may find it tolerable--I'm hoping I will), and the number of times which it crashes is simply astonishing. My NeXT Cube has crashed exactly five times in the past three years, each of which I can account for. I spent most of a day last week reloading the hard drive on my PM 9500/180MP at work with the intention of keeping track of how often it crashed--I gave up in disgust on Tuesday when the count hit five. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: roedy@mindprod.com (Roedy Green) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Organization: Canadian Mind Products Message-ID: <36c0536c.74018382@news.bctel.ca> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <01be50d6$d33371a0$35badccf@samsara> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 02:13:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 18:23:42 PDT On 5 Feb 1999 01:11:21 GMT, "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote: > >Microsoft already admitted that they faked the video. (Presumably the >original one.) > >It was a 'simulation'. I wonder what the rest of their testimony has been. I am not familiar with the details here, but is that not a bit like allowing OJ to do his own DNA testing? Surely any tests would have to be performed by some ostensibly neutral party using software purchased at random in a store. For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: <http://mindprod.com> -- Roedy Green, Canadian Mind Products -30-
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <36BA0F95.D084B623@oaai.com> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc. References: <36B1C25F.9BB79E93@oaai.com> <B2DF4D59-4DC26@206.165.43.57> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:22:30 GMT Lawson English wrote: > A question or two, here: > > 1) how easy would it be to create transparency-style-runs using your > solution? > 2) how easy would it be to edit the string in-place, with or without > transparency-style-runs? Two thoughts here: really two steps in creating a class that should be able to do what you're asking for: In the code I posted earlier, I used NSGraphics to render the string. What one would likely do to make an editable equivalent is use NSTextView instead. Override textView's drawRect: method to draw first into an image, then do the same compositing trick. FYI: this business of drawing first into an image then compositing, is very quick -- we use it in our GlyphiX application to draw semi-transparent shapes by caching them then drawing from cache. If you think about it, by using the NSImage trick, what we're doing in our code is probably very similar to what QDGX is doing internally; its just that in the default case, the additional composite isn't performed. You need to take one additional step to "enable" the special composited drawing using AppKit.* You can subclass NSTextContainer to intercept mark-ups such as changes in color for a run of text, and choose to draw it using a semi-transparent color, a gradient, or whatever. I think these two steps should allow what you're asking, and also allow for neat effects like transparency gradients in editable text, etc. > The GX Layout shape encapsulates a rather large number of options inside a > single shape, but they left out color-runs, so you have to simulate them > yourself. Of course, once you simulate a color-style-run, you get > transparency-style-runs for free, since color AND transparency > functionality is inherent in the Ink Object. If I wanted to create a > mono-Ink-Object single-line text-editor using GX, it is trivial. What would > it take to create an in-place text-editor that handled transparent text > using the YB? Is that inherent in the NSTextObject? How would you extend > this to handle transparency-style-runs? I think that it's a pretty straightforward bit of work in Yellow Box, as outlined above. The thing that might get some folks hung up if they don't fully grok AppKit yet, is that when someone mentions the word "composite," or "transparency" or whatever, you need to turn to the NSImage documentation immediately, 'cause that's where you'll find the answer to what you're trying to do. Hope this helps. Mark * Why not perform this additonal step for all drawing? Performance! It's the 80/20 rule as applied to the toolbox. Make the typical 80% of drawing fast and efficient, but make the more elaborate 20% of drawing -- transparency, neat composite tricks -- possible with an additional step.
Message-ID: <36BA19F6.B85F44AB@klassy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 14:06:46 -0800 From: Josiah Fizer <mib@klassy.com> Organization: Klassy Soft MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <79d5ir$cot$1@news.erinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Lewis wrote: > Don't you remember when Apple didn't even ship keyboards with their boxes? > > Imagine paying $5,000 for a 8100 and not getting a keyboard! > But you would get a mouse. Then you could, like, click on stuff. > > Earl Malmrose wrote in message <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com>... > >Stephane Leon <stephane@dial.eunet.ch> wrote in message > ><79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch>... > >>The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, > >>and waiting for OS X Server. > >> > >>- 400Mz. > >>- 256 MB. > >>- Studio display 21". > >>- 9 GB Ultra2 disk. > >>with Printer, Scanner, Jaz 2Gb, Modem 56K it cost me USD 7500. > > > >$7,500! Yikes, that's a lot of money for a single machine. And you end up > >with that crappy keyboard and mouse. My G3-400 just came in, and I can't > >believe it doesn't come with a mousepad. You'd think for my $3,500 I could > >at least expected to get a decent mouse, keyboard, and mousepad included. > > > >
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 05:13:15 -0500 From: nospam@one.net (MojiDoji) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ø` .――. ĨØ` .――. ĨØ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh!` .――. ĨØ` .――. ĨØ ` Message-ID: <nospam-0402990513150001@10.0.1.99> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <1dmghth.1c74mqvozyzdaN@dc2-modem262.dial.xs4all.nl> <36B8993E.D81442D5@mail.utexas.edu> <clund-0402991859520001@ppp021.uio.no> Organization: OneNet Communications News Hub In article <clund-0402991859520001@ppp021.uio.no>, clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C Lund) wrote: > In article <36B8993E.D81442D5@mail.utexas.edu>, Richard Smith > <richs@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > > go burn in your suppressed socialistic country > > "Suppressed"?? You really don't know much about the world outside the US > borders, do you? Please tell me in what way I'm "oppressed"? I live in > Norway, btw. The thing that I remember hearing about Norway was a quote from someone describing their Winter Olympics experience..."It's like heaven.". In terms of quality of life, I don't think you want to compare to a Scandinavian. > > > and let the states continue to > > control the direction the entire world takes. > > Well now... the US is becoming less iportant in world affairs for every > year that goes by. With the rise of China, and EU, the US is in danger of > becoming irrelevant. > I highly doubt that, but certainly LESS important than in the Cold War days. > > I prefer you not to come here. > > simon wrote: > > > i love socializm! ;-) Thats why I live in europe and don't dare to go to > > > the states. -- Don't send me any email, because I don't really care what you have to say.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <01be50d6$d33371a0$35badccf@samsara> <36c0536c.74018382@news.bctel.ca> From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> Date: 04 Feb 1999 18:49:13 -0800 Message-ID: <yl3n22t5zva.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> I've read the following facts .. One MS prepares the machines and the DOJ folks are present _until_ they are "ready" ... I've seen nothing to suggest that the version of 98 they install is "off the shelf" either. Meanwhile the spokesman spouts remarks about "their reliability of evidence" After what has happened in this trial already and the lies MS has been caught in and now the recent botched demonstration. Why is it totally out of the question to believe that they wouldn't do what I'm suggesting to prove their claims? roedy@mindprod.com (Roedy Green) writes: > On 5 Feb 1999 01:11:21 GMT, "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> > wrote: > > > > >Microsoft already admitted that they faked the video. (Presumably the > >original one.) > > > >It was a 'simulation'. I wonder what the rest of their testimony has been. > > > I am not familiar with the details here, but is that not a bit like > allowing OJ to do his own DNA testing? Surely any tests would have to > be performed by some ostensibly neutral party using software purchased > at random in a store. > > > > > For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: <http://mindprod.com> > -- > Roedy Green, Canadian Mind Products > -30-
From: bartosh@tamu.edu (Michael Bartosh) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: The Second Coming of Steve? Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:09:37 -0600 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Message-ID: <bartosh-0402991709380001@imac.resnet.tamu.edu> References: <7837o1$1vo$4@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <B2CA86BD-3C523@206.165.43.37> <genny-1901992138080001@ppp75.ccms.net> <slrn7anoet.p4c.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 23:10:54 GMT > > That's what you get from a sugar-water salesman's mentality: innovation > must be brought under control and strict supervision. > Honestly, at that point in time Jobs NEEDED to be kicked out- he was a brat, and I don't know when that changed (tho it certainly did). Seriously- he almost ran NeXT into the ground. I don't know if they ever made a signifigant profit, and I'm sure most of their value was goodwill. The world had never seen a desktop environ that advanced, but it was so mismanaged that 99% of everyone hadn't heard much about them until Apple bought them. I worship the guy now- he's brilliant. But Scully ran Apple well for a good while. -- Michael Bartosh Student Rep Apple Computer, Inc. bartosh@tamu.edu
From: clund@DIE.SPAMMER.DIE.notam.uio.no (C Lund) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ø` .――. ĨØ` .――. ĨØ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh!` .――. ĨØ` .――. ĨØ ` Date: 4 Feb 1999 18:00:08 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Message-ID: <clund-0402991859520001@ppp021.uio.no> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <36adfe0d.147650440@news.netdirect.net> <cclark1-2701990210190001@cx884688-a.omhan1.ne.home.com> <36AF97A1.3FABBF76@mail.utexas.edu> <78o701$8cp$1@remarQ.com> <joe.ragosta-2801990827190001@wil121.dol.net> <78u051$fhj$1@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <1dmghth.1c74mqvozyzdaN@dc2-modem262.dial.xs4all.nl> <36B8993E.D81442D5@mail.utexas.edu> In article <36B8993E.D81442D5@mail.utexas.edu>, Richard Smith <richs@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: > go burn in your suppressed socialistic country "Suppressed"?? You really don't know much about the world outside the US borders, do you? Please tell me in what way I'm "oppressed"? I live in Norway, btw. > and let the states continue to > control the direction the entire world takes. Well now... the US is becoming less iportant in world affairs for every year that goes by. With the rise of China, and EU, the US is in danger of becoming irrelevant. > I prefer you not to come here. > simon wrote: > > i love socializm! ;-) Thats why I live in europe and don't dare to go to > > the states. -- C Lund http://www.notam.uio.no/~clund/
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 4 Feb 1999 23:41:20 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7bkc10.oh.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <slrn7bhg0g.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <19990203182936.00360.00000456@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 1999 23:41:20 GMT On 3 Feb 1999 23:29:36 GMT, WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote: :I was rather agreeing with what Matthew said until: :>Does it mean that Good-OO-Programming-On-a-Real-Kernel-With-a-Real-GUI is :>Dead? : :Surely you're not intimating that the Mac UI is a user interface which can be :realistically compared to the NeXT UI? Sadly, no. I have a few faint hopes that upon delivery of MacOSX that they will start again on the quest for better interfaces, suspended for 10 years. Oh, ObURL: http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/System/Library/ Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/Resources/English.lproj/ Documentation/Reference/Java/frameset.html 'com.apple.yellow.application' -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <79d55q$j681412@news2.bis.adp.com> ignore no reply Control: cancel <79d55q$j681412@news2.bis.adp.com> Message-ID: <cancel.79d55q$j681412@news2.bis.adp.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:55:42 +0000 Sender: ysbthr@penis.nl From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk Organization: Annihilator v0.3 Spam (EMP) cancelled. Cancel ID: >?6R;?,&IA%Z)*![77"T_ZDEXITC-M9!JE30JXV@Y"_951+-4V8&<=J$
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:51:14 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-0402991751150001@nas-p11.usc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> In article <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > $7,500! Yikes, that's a lot of money for a single machine. And you end up > with that crappy keyboard and mouse. My G3-400 just came in, and I can't > believe it doesn't come with a mousepad. You'd think for my $3,500 I could > at least expected to get a decent mouse, keyboard, and mousepad included. There are some drivers who simply don't deserve good cars, and there are some people who simply don't deserve to waste a killer Mac... Trev
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X Server in Europe: April Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:44:40 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79dbd6$gns$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <F5ry2z.GxD@RnA.nl> <36A69AC6.FDC0C98E@tamtam.xs4all.nl> <sg.od.in-2101990952430001@10.1.10.170> <789acq$4fb$1@kohl.informatik.uni-bremen.de> <36a9e4f8.6219953@news.demon.co.uk> <m3r9skdokn.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <78oppn$gq0$1@hecate.umd.edu> <m3btjgeb8o.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <slrn7b8skf.762.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> <797k92$lep$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <BZPt2.5966$e65.1914@news1.giganews.com> In article <BZPt2.5966$e65.1914@news1.giganews.com>, cbbrowne@hex.net wrote: > On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:39:15 GMT, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: >> There are other graphs and charts, but the rough upshot is that adding >> another CPU to NT doesn't do much after around 10 processors, whereas >> Solaris will go up towards 40 or 50 processors. Of course, the actual >> situation is more complicated to benchmark or analyze because the machines >> are not just running one task... > > You probably meant to say that "Solaris can, with suitable applications, > provide increased performance..." Not really, no. I don't disagree that the application(s) being run are absolutely critical when discussing a real-world example, but it's also meaningful to consider how far the operating system itself can stretch. That gives you some idea of what granularity the OS has in terms of locking shared resources (I/O like network and disk, for instance) and what kind of syncronization demands it places on the hardware. > Applications that do a whole lot of (say) IPC or other things that > require significant coordination between CPUs probably will "stop > scaling" faster than that. Sure. It's trivial to consider the worst-case scenario, which is an endless loop around a big critical section that prevents everything but one processor from doing useful work. However, the benchmarks Sun had were for things like NFS fileservice or web service, which, while they do permit the CPUs to go off on their seperate ways, also involve pretty heavy syncronization requirements for I/O. I think one reason Solaris does better is because it can deliver I/O to different threads in a process without blocking the other threads (ie, I/O granularity for stuff like network traffic is at the thread level and not the process level). This relates to Solaris' user/kernel thread paradigm, which is the MxN versus MxM they discuss. And you can see SMP support going way down towards the nitty-gritty details of the SPARC v9 architecture with the FLUSH/STBAR/MEMBAR opcodes and system memory models like total-store ordering versus partial-store ordering. From the performance/benchmark results of the Sun WebServer product, it seems clear that they're working pretty hard on this area. Sure, their numbers are there to encourage people to buy Sun equipment for server farms, but then you could do far worse than buy Sun equipment for a many-CPU SMP cluster, too. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:29:17 -0500 From: <gbh@middlemarch.net> Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. In-Reply-To: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.9902042322570.12240-100000@mail.his.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Heller Information Services > [...] > Why aren't they doing this test properly? Why isn't the judge providing > the release of 98 that should be installed on the machines and verifying > that it has been done so and why is the government no allowed in the room > _until_ the test is about to begin? While I agree that the tests are biased, I don't think it's the role of a judge to run controlled experiments in a trial. I think the way it works is that one side presents evidence to support its case and the other side cross examines it. --Greg
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 5 Feb 1999 00:37:19 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software Message-ID: <01be50d2$11d7eb70$35badccf@samsara> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <798ac5$a7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <799ji2$8ke@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <79bedp$45m$1@news.panix.com> Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> wrote in article <79bedp$45m$1@news.panix.com>... > On 3 Feb 1999 13:39:14 GMT, > Jonathan Hendry <jhendry@subsequent.com> wrote: > >Frankly, I'd rather lobby Inprise to port Delphi to Linux. They'd > >probably be more responsive than Apple. > > Doubtful. > > Inprise had a 90% finished version of Delphi for OS/2 and sat on it > rather than sell it. They didn't think they could sell it and they > didn't want to support it. (I have talked to people who have seen it > and used it. I have no doubts whatsoever that it was written and did > work though it was less than 100% source compatible with the Win16 > version) OS/2 is moribund, and has been for a long time. You can't hardly blame them for not shipping it. They *did* ship the AS/400 version. <snip> > > IMnotsoHO, you'll have a lot more luck asking for a Linux version of > JBuilder since the Jar files it spits out most likely work on Linux > now anyway, and it would be probably be acceptable to do a Willows > port of just the IDE and make use of the JVMs that run on Linux now. Supposedly, they're also working on making Delphi output Java.
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> Date: 04 Feb 1999 17:03:19 -0800 Message-ID: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> I'm sorry but so far I'm hearing that MS gets to prepare the machines install the software etc etc. Even without the government being present. Why are they so niave to believe that Microsoft hasn't hacked the installed OS to suit their claims? It's hardly a controlled environment as far as I'm concerned. ... MS could have built their own win 98 CD that can cope , in the way that suits them, with Feltons program. Why aren't they doing this test properly? Why isn't the judge providing the release of 98 that should be installed on the machines and verifying that it has been done so and why is the government no allowed in the room _until_ the test is about to begin?
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: 5 Feb 1999 01:11:21 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software Message-ID: <01be50d6$d33371a0$35badccf@samsara> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> Microsoft already admitted that they faked the video. (Presumably the original one.) It was a 'simulation'. I wonder what the rest of their testimony has been. Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote in article <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>... > I'm sorry but so far I'm hearing that MS gets to prepare the machines > install the software etc etc. Even without the government being present. > > Why are they so niave to believe that Microsoft hasn't hacked the installed > OS to suit their claims? > > It's hardly a controlled environment as far as I'm concerned. > > ... > > MS could have built their own win 98 CD that can cope , in the way > that suits them, with Feltons program. > > Why aren't they doing this test properly? Why isn't the judge providing > the release of 98 that should be installed on the machines and verifying > that it has been done so and why is the government no allowed in the room > _until_ the test is about to begin? >
From: ksephl@faqlist.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: + + + + + FAQ for this newsgroup + + + + + 8597 Date: 5 Feb 1999 01:19:05 GMT Organization: Another Netscape News Server User Message-ID: <79dgu9$j684665@news2.bis.adp.com> View the latest FAQ at http://home-3.worldonline.nl/~696 itivrnllmphcljfzucxkerhdyscxxsmwcpfwpmmsjrvcizjymjejxgceebpfpebtoocdgnlnzrtfcixzfskrzebdxuxhgxrplpwutfsocsytvshwqfnpmznsyczjyqwfjtoghcsrgtkzuvwjlvljphxuwwsuyuyizdxszqwqdvwfdfbhhrbilnrckgzvjxjsyrymclpfkzkqygh
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:11:43 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> In article <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se>, cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) wrote: [snipped] > A. For NEW application development, Mac OS X Server is suitable for: > > - BSD/POSIX applications > - Yellow Box applications > - Java applications [snipped] > I find that to pretty unambiguous. I also find these statements unambiguous but I don't take them as an endorsement of YellowBox. Of course the three mentioned technologies are the way to write new OS X server applications; there is no carbon support in the current release OS X Server. [snipped] I agree that they are saying that YellowBox will be available in MacOS X. I disagree that they are giving it a ringing endorsement. [snipped] > why would they add "new Yellow Box APIs" if Yellow Box was dead ? Apple often does not behave rationally. They have, in the past, canned technologies right after they have been released or updated. > True - but right now, they are telling us that Yellow Box is alive and > well in Mac OS X Server, and will _remain_ alive and well in Mac OS X. And > they are telling us that developers should develop BSD, Yellow Box, or > Java applicatiosn using Mac OS X Server. Agreed. > I fail to see how Apple could say it more clearly than they are doing. The problem is that Apple often makes promises and then backs away from them later. They have to do more than make a promise to get people to actually believe that they will live up to it. If they spent a significant amount of money to fund YB developers then I would be more inclined to trust them. If the drafted and signed a legally binding contract to provide a superset of API functionality in the YellowBox (versus Carbon or Java) for the next five years then I would be more inclined to trust them. The bottom line is that luke-warm words don't do it for me anymore. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:16:02 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79e5rd$62m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <19990204205615.00364.00001418@ng-ch1.aol.com> In article <19990204205615.00364.00001418@ng-ch1.aol.com>, willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote: > Stephane, > > I hate to say this, but I think you're going to be terribly dissappointed. > > The Mac UI is horribly archaic (though since you'll presumably be getting 8.5 > you may find it tolerable--I'm hoping I will), > William > > William Adams > http://members.aol.com/willadams > Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow. > > Will, you really seem to dislike the mac ui a lot, as do a number of NeXT users - and as a mac user I can understand some of the reasons (8.5 tiled running app icons are lovely and I would kill for a dock*) Have anyone thought getting some people to seriously attempt to impliment a 3rd party UI? Getting any app to be the ui for Mac OS is as simple as renaming it "finder" and putting it in the system folder (an often used trick with VirtualPC to lower overhead from finder) however at this point in time it might be folly to do it for the current Mac OS as the trick may not work on OS 10. * I really like the idea of the mounted drives dock that was suggested in that Rhapsody ui guideline doccument that circulated eons ago - my biggest problem with the desktop is that files and folders can get mixed up with volumes. Still, the tabbed folders in 8.5 are nice and responsive and can be configured to look much like the tabbed version of the shelf (or dock) that I believe NeXT were moving towards for the next version of the OPENSTEP ui. If only we were able to make ANY application the background instead of the desktop then the ui would almost be as functional as the one I use on my Newton. Cheers RAX. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.be.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <7990a0$mem$1@talia.mad.ttd.net> <1dmn8kf.1o8dpul17uswb6N@usr327-edi.cableinet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Looking for a black case... Message-ID: <D%zu2.46183$641.23189@news.san.rr.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:46:26 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 02:48:03 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Lars Duening wrote in message <1dmn8kf.1o8dpul17uswb6N@usr327-edi.cableinet.co.uk>... >webmaster <webmaster@icg.es> wrote: > >> So, that. >> >> Can anybody tell me where to get a black case for my BeOS system ? >> >> I mean all black, like the ones IBM has. > >Buy a can of black spray paint and do it yourself. Anyone know if NeXT black is still available? --Ed.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 5 Feb 1999 12:56:14 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <79e5rd$62m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <19990205075614.25771.00000830@ng-fv1.aol.com> The wonderfulness of the NeXT UI is a lot more subtle and pervasive than merely having a dock or a file browser--it's a reflection/extension of the Unix concept of tools, not panaceas with elegant methods to provide for the interaction of the tools (services, etc.) For the rest of my thoughts on this matter one can simply consult www.dejanews.com William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:35:01 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> In article <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > Stephane Leon <stephane@dial.eunet.ch> wrote in message > <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch>... > >The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, > >and waiting for OS X Server. > > > >- 400Mz. > >- 256 MB. > >- Studio display 21". > >- 9 GB Ultra2 disk. > >with Printer, Scanner, Jaz 2Gb, Modem 56K it cost me USD 7500. > > $7,500! Yikes, that's a lot of money for a single machine. And you end up > with that crappy keyboard and mouse. My G3-400 just came in, and I can't > believe it doesn't come with a mousepad. You'd think for my $3,500 I could > at least expected to get a decent mouse, keyboard, and mousepad included. So spend $30 and buy yourself a keyboard. If you're buying a $7,500 machine, do you really base the decision on the keyboard? -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Date: 5 Feb 1999 14:54:02 GMT Organization: University of No Learning Message-ID: <79f0ma$6qt@crcnis3.unl.edu> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: : : So spend $30 and buy yourself a keyboard. If you're buying a $7,500 : machine, do you really base the decision on the keyboard? : Better yet, plug in a NeXT ADB keyboard. The new G3s do have a ADB port on the back of them (if unadvertised) -Josh -- Do not send mail to this account. Really. "Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general This post (C)1998, Josh Hesse. Quoted material is (C) of the person quoted. |ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ NEW AEON .Sigfile freshness date: 6/30/98 "Ask Bill [Gates] why function code 6 (in QDOS and still in MS-DOS more than ten years later) ends in a dollar sign, no one in the world knows that but me" -Gary Kildall
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:05:06 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0502991105060001@wil134.dol.net> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> In article <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>, "Simon WrightŪ" <xwrightx@xvic.bigpond.net.aux> wrote: > Apple have never been going out of business. > > Apple's doom has been predicted for the last 10 years, and it never came. > > It never will. > Sure it will. The sun's going to run out of hydrogen in 10-20 billion years. Apple will probably be gone by then. ;-) -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Message-ID: <36BB1BA5.4B5D1E75@kana.com> From: Patrick T Hickey <patrick@kana.com> Organization: The Four Week Cough Group LTD. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <19990204205615.00364.00001418@ng-ch1.aol.com> <79e5rd$62m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:26:14 EDT Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:26:13 -0800 > > > > > Will, you really seem to dislike the mac ui a lot, as do a number of NeXT > users - and as a mac user I can understand some of the reasons (8.5 tiled > running app icons are lovely and I would kill for a dock*) Have anyone > thought getting some people to seriously attempt to impliment a 3rd party UI? There actually has been such a *dock* for years in the form of Greg's Browser. Solid as a rock. Intuitive. Check it out. I've been using it forever and can't fathom using anything else on pure Mac OS. OS-X, well, that's going to be another story. http://www.kaleidoscope.net/greg/browser.html regards, patrick
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: 5 Feb 1999 16:50:53 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <79f7hd$k5g$2@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78fs18$3is$1@news2.xs4all.nl> Rob A. Augustinus <devious@xs4all.nl> wrote: : Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote in message ... : >Alas, this is the same company that made THE FUCKIN BIGGEST MISTAKE in : >software history--not licensing the MacOS a la Microsoft. : MISTAKE !?!? I wouldn't call it a mistake... : marketing technically seen yes... but it's still far from a good and stable : OS. Really, to the extent that MacOS is alive (where there is life there is hope) it is a success. If you want to name a failure, name an OS which is dead and gone. John
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:29:19 -0800 Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16 Message-ID: <36BB2A6E.4E9D67A4@ncal.verio.com> References: <B2DF4D59-4DC26@206.165.43.57> <19990204204640.00364.00001408@ng-ch1.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WillAdams wrote: > > Here's a question for you Lawson: > > How easy would it be to get output from a GX app on a Crosfield imagesetter? > > Believe it or not, some people need to worry about really getting work done, > and for that purpose, GX approaches being useless. Well, the GX developers went to an awful lot of trouble to get PostScript output to work from GX. Almost any wonky thing one can do in GX can eventually be expressed in PostScript (since PostScript is a complete programming language). However, you might have to add some memory to that Crosfield, and be REALLY patient... This isn't the sort of thing one would want to use in a prepress workflow. While the GX imaging model is interesting, it doesn't map very well onto the workflow used by Apple's prepress and publishing industry customers. One big motivation for the graphics work being done for Mac OS X is to enable prepress and publishing developers and their customers to do what they do better, faster, and smarter. Oh, and PDF is A file format supported in Mac OS X, not THE format. Big difference...
From: satan@hell.org (Bucksatan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:45:40 -0600 Organization: OnRamp, http://www.onramp.net/ Message-ID: <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> In article <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch>, stephane@dial.eunet.ch says... > The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, > and waiting for OS X Server. > > - 400Mz. > - 256 MB. > - Studio display 21". > - 9 GB Ultra2 disk. > with Printer, Scanner, Jaz 2Gb, Modem 56K it cost me USD 7500. > > Delivery date : next week. > > I think with this box ill get Power and Nexstep evolution. > > Thanks for all solutions people suggested to help me. > > Stephane Leon > Stephane Leon > The phrase "more money than sense" comes to mind. I'd tell you what you could've gotten for that much money, but i don't want to ruin your day. <note_to_self> the next time that some kool-aid drinker refers to the cost-effectiveness of the mac, refer to this article. </note_to_self> laters, Bucksatan
From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: 5 Feb 1999 19:27:21 GMT Organization: TMR Associates, Schenectady NY Message-ID: <79fgmp$1gne$1@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com> References: <78oi0a$i76$1@hecate.umd.edu> <78urvm$3o1$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> <36b47405.76458281@news.ultranet.com> <adtF6KAxs.8AE@netcom.com> Originator: davidsen@darkstar.prodigy.com In article <adtF6KAxs.8AE@netcom.com>, Anthony D. Tribelli <adt@netcom.com> wrote: | A good question is whether the instruction that returns the serial number | is privelaged or user mode. If it is privelaged mode then the OS can | effectively enforce the user's 'privacy' settings against 'bad' | applications. | | BTW, I doubt Microsoft would ignore the user's settings. Doing so would | probably get the DOJ all excited. Like they care... But I regard this as a great thing to push people to Linux and other non-MS operating systems which honor your choices. Personally I have no illusions about normal operations being trackable if someone wanted to do so, nor any doubt that when I want to be untrackable I can. I'm far too paranoid to trust the system now, nor any laws about data privacy, so I assume that which I don't hide is in the public view, and act accordingly. This whole thing only scares those who both have something to hide and who think they have currently hidden it. If all the fastest chips have caller id people will grumble and buy them. -- bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> CTO, TMR Associates, Inc People who ignore Y2k warnings can't tell Paul Revere from Chicken Little! --inspired by discussion on CNN
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:59:08 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79ff1m$8u9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net> <79f0ma$6qt@crcnis3.unl.edu> In article <79f0ma$6qt@crcnis3.unl.edu>, 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse) wrote: > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: > : > : So spend $30 and buy yourself a keyboard. If you're buying a $7,500 > : machine, do you really base the decision on the keyboard? > : > > Better yet, plug in a NeXT ADB keyboard. > The new G3s do have a ADB port on the back of them > (if unadvertised) Can you use a NeXT keyboard on a Mac? What about Mac keys that are not on NeXT keyboards? Wound the NeXT keyboards power key turn on the Mac? Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 13:54:01 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> In article <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net>, satan@hell.org (Bucksatan) wrote: > The phrase "more money than sense" comes to mind. I'd tell you what you > could've gotten for that much money, but i don't want to ruin your day. Oh, go ahead. Let's see it. Trev
From: fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:29:53 -0100 Organization: SERVICOM Message-ID: <36BABA11.DCAFD205@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Nicholson wrote: > > I'm sorry but so far I'm hearing that MS gets to prepare the machines > install the software etc etc. Even without the government being present. > > Why are they so niave to believe that Microsoft hasn't hacked the installed > OS to suit their claims? > > It's hardly a controlled environment as far as I'm concerned. > > ... > > MS could have built their own win 98 CD that can cope , in the way > that suits them, with Feltons program. > It's probably better if they cheat.... Whatever they do in their next video (number three?) will be scrutinised and reproduced by other people. If Microsoft is lying then their case is shot to hell. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB.
From: bholderness@erols.remove.this.com (WIlliam Holderness) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:28:10 -0500 Organization: IMPACT Message-ID: <bholderness-0502991528110001@207-172-116-151.s24.as3.dwt.erols.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Feb 1999 20:26:25 GMT In article <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >In article <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com>, "Earl Malmrose" ><earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >> Stephane Leon <stephane@dial.eunet.ch> wrote in message >> <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch>... >> >The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, >> >and waiting for OS X Server. >> > >> >- 400Mz. >> >- 256 MB. >> >- Studio display 21". >> >- 9 GB Ultra2 disk. >> >with Printer, Scanner, Jaz 2Gb, Modem 56K it cost me USD 7500. >> >> $7,500! Yikes, that's a lot of money for a single machine. And you end up >> with that crappy keyboard and mouse. My G3-400 just came in, and I can't >> believe it doesn't come with a mousepad. You'd think for my $3,500 I could >> at least expected to get a decent mouse, keyboard, and mousepad included. > >So spend $30 and buy yourself a keyboard. If you're buying a $7,500 >machine, do you really base the decision on the keyboard? Malmarose land is kinda like Teletubbie land, in that logic....Er, well... it just dosn't exist! Does that make it a little clearer Joe? Bill Holderness IMPACT
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:50:39 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote: > > In article <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net>, satan@hell.org > (Bucksatan) wrote: > > > The phrase "more money than sense" comes to mind. I'd tell you what you > > could've gotten for that much money, but i don't want to ruin your day. > > Oh, go ahead. Let's see it. http://www.penguincomputing.com/dual-xeon-scsi.cgi Dual 450MHz processors, 128MB RAM, Ultra2SCSI subsystem, 64-bit sound, 300W power supply, 9GB SCSI drive. Start there. The number is $4470, and with $275 added to bring RAM up to 256MB, you're at $4745. It's got an extra processor, but that's not necessarily important to someone who just bought a Macintosh. CDW has among others, the following 21" monitors for sale right now (none of them come in cartoon-character blue, unfortunately): HP P1100 (.25mm diagonal dot pitch) $1,298.90 Hitachi SuperScan 814 (.22 *horizontal* dot pitch) $1,498.57 IBM 202 - Stealth Gray (.25 diagonal dot pitch) $1,327.72 Princeton EO2010 (.25 diagonal dot pitch) $ 929.01 So you're not a price shopper. We'll take the most expensive monitor in the bunch, which brings us up to $6,243.57. Now for printers (again, at CDW): HP 1100SE (8ppm laser printer) $ 399.00 NEC Superscript 870 (8ppm laser printer) $ 319.97 Personally, I love my NEC 870 and all of the awards it, and the 860, have won. But I'm also a loyal HP customer, so we'll take the more expensive printer, bringing us up to $6,642.57. Jaz drive at CDW: Jaz 2GB External (or Internal, same price) $ 349.95 Total is currently at $6,992.52. Let's pick up CDW's most expensive 56K modem: 3Com V.Everything (56K, v.90, data/voice/fax) $ 219.30 I don't know what kind of scanner you got. Here's a nice one: HP 5100 Cxi (1200x1200, 36-bit flatbed scanner) $ 299.00 You still counting? My total is $7,510.82. Check my math, but I got everything at full retail price; you can compare anywhere else. Nothing is on sale, nothing includes rebates, nothing has been price-shopped. Pretty nice little setup, if extravagant. MJP
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:05:38 -0500 Organization: The Small & Mighty Group Message-ID: <rex-0502991605380001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> References: <B2DF4D59-4DC26@206.165.43.57> <19990204204640.00364.00001408@ng-ch1.aol.com> <36BB2A6E.4E9D67A4@ncal.verio.com> In article <36BB2A6E.4E9D67A4@ncal.verio.com>, mpaque@ncal.verio.com wrote: :WillAdams wrote: :> :> Here's a question for you Lawson: :> :> How easy would it be to get output from a GX app on a Crosfield imagesetter? :> :> Believe it or not, some people need to worry about really getting work done, :> and for that purpose, GX approaches being useless. : :Well, the GX developers went to an awful lot of trouble to get :PostScript output to work from GX. Almost any wonky thing one can do in :GX can eventually be expressed in PostScript (since PostScript is a :complete programming language). However, you might have to add some :memory to that Crosfield, and be REALLY patient... Before Apple became *really* ambivalent with GX, I believe there were a couple of companies planning GX-based RIPs. In general, output device developers were the ones who were most interested in GX, because it's printing architecture was so much nicer than what's in the Mac OS. One thing that hasn't been addressed is the availability of printer drivers for Mac OS X. If, upon release, Mac OS X isn't bundled on every new Mac shipped, then I suspect the driver situation will be as bad as GX, possibly worse. Knowing the 'new' Apple, their response will be 'buy new printers.' :This isn't the sort of thing one would want to use in a prepress :workflow. While the GX imaging model is interesting, it doesn't map :very well onto the workflow used by Apple's prepress and publishing :industry customers. Or put more succinctly, Apple didn't want to support GX because Adobe didn't want to support GX. Of course, I'm sure you folks are now quite familiar with how much of a pain in the arse Adobe can be... :One big motivation for the graphics work being done :for Mac OS X is to enable prepress and publishing developers and their :customers to do what they do better, faster, and smarter. Whatever interesting stuff you guys come up with is still going to need the Adobe stamp of approval, and unfortunately Adobe usually takes quite a while to adopt any new Apple technologies. (Given Apple's recent record, who could blame them...) Whatever you folks come up with is also going to have to be available to Carbon *and* Mac OS 8.x/9. That of course means dealing with the classic printing architecture, have fun. Trying to be compatible with the bubble-gum & snot holding the classic printing architecture together and all of the hacks that developers used to get around that chewy mucosal system only set the GX team back 3 or 4 years. Who wants to place some bets that Microsoft is going to have a really hard time getting printing working under Carbon & Mac OS X? Nah, it's not even worth betting on, it's practically a given. :Oh, and PDF is A file format supported in Mac OS X, not THE format. Big difference... Not for the prepress and publishing developers and their customers that you just mentioned. Anything interesting that you guys whip up is going to have to be distillable to PDF, otherwise you're going to run right into the same problems that GX did. ::Eric
From: stephane@dial.eunet.ch (Stephane Leon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 5 Feb 1999 21:00:28 GMT Organization: EUnet AG Message-ID: <79fm5c$pks$1@news.eunet.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote: >I hate to say this, but I think you're going to be terribly dissappointed. > >The Mac UI is horribly archaic (though since you'll presumably be getting 8.5 >you may find it tolerable--I'm hoping I will), and the number of times which it >crashes is simply astonishing. > >William > Ill see next week for the user interface, if its difficult to me, so just waiting for OS X and see. >I spent most of a day last week reloading the hard drive on my PM 9500/180MP at >work with the intention of keeping track of how often it crashed--I gave up in >disgust on Tuesday when the count hit five. My Next station has crashed once, in the past 7 years, i dont see why it will be different. Stephane Leon
From: stephane@dial.eunet.ch (Stephane Leon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 5 Feb 1999 21:35:47 GMT Organization: EUnet AG Message-ID: <79fo7j$r2u$1@news.eunet.ch> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> satan@hell.org (Bucksatan) wrote: >The phrase "more money than sense" comes to mind. I'd tell you what you >could've gotten for that much money, but i don't want to ruin your day. > ><note_to_self> >the next time that some kool-aid drinker refers to the cost-effectiveness >of the mac, refer to this article. ></note_to_self> > >laters, > >Bucksatan I spend more than USD 7500 in 1992 when i buy my Next station. Stephane Leon.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 5 Feb 1999 22:43:25 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <79fs6d$nul$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote: : In article <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net>, satan@hell.org : (Bucksatan) wrote: : > The phrase "more money than sense" comes to mind. I'd tell you what you : > could've gotten for that much money, but i don't want to ruin your day. : Oh, go ahead. Let's see it. We were talking about $7500? Everybody has their own priorities .... personally (based on my last few major purchases): K6-2 computer: $1200(*) New mountian bike: $1800 Digital Camera: $1000 ======= $4000 and bank the rest * - not counting my recylcled display I hadn't really thought of it before ... but it is interesting that the bike is more expensive than the computer. Sadly, I tend to put more hours on the computer these days. John
From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.intel,comp.privacy Subject: Re: Pentium III w/FREE BIG BROTHER Date: 5 Feb 1999 19:30:28 GMT Organization: TMR Associates, Schenectady NY Message-ID: <79fgsk$3fpq$1@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com> References: <36AEA524.2E3439F4@mediaone.net> <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com> Originator: davidsen@darkstar.prodigy.com In article <jslewis-2901990156100001@207-172-159-166.s166.tnt7.rcm.erols.com>, Josh Lewis <jslewis@erols.com> wrote: | That was pioneered with the LISA! Intel does catch up! | | Anyway how many diffrent tracking options are there already? by cookies, | by ethernet address, tcp/ip adress, by hard disk checksum, by what else? All PnP cards need a serial number. Far more likely to be there and not be upgraded. -- bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> CTO, TMR Associates, Inc People who ignore Y2k warnings can't tell Paul Revere from Chicken Little! --inspired by discussion on CNN
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:33:53 -0800 References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net> <79f0ma$6qt@crcnis3.unl.edu> Organization: Concentric Message-ID: <macghod-0502991233540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> In article <79f0ma$6qt@crcnis3.unl.edu>, 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse) wrote: > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: > : > : So spend $30 and buy yourself a keyboard. If you're buying a $7,500 > : machine, do you really base the decision on the keyboard? > : > > Better yet, plug in a NeXT ADB keyboard. > The new G3s do have a ADB port on the back of them > (if unadvertised) The adb is not as good quality as the old adb, and thus you will have problems with it if you plug in a keyboard
From: Peter Ammon <Peter_Ammon@rocketmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:01:28 +0000 Organization: University of California, Berkeley Message-ID: <36BB07C8.59A9E48F@rocketmail.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net> <79f0ma$6qt@crcnis3.unl.edu> <macghod-0502991233540001@sdn-ar-001casbarp295.dialsprint.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Sullivan wrote: > In article <79f0ma$6qt@crcnis3.unl.edu>, 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh > Hesse) wrote: > > > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: > > : > > : So spend $30 and buy yourself a keyboard. If you're buying a $7,500 > > : machine, do you really base the decision on the keyboard? > > : > > > > Better yet, plug in a NeXT ADB keyboard. > > The new G3s do have a ADB port on the back of them > > (if unadvertised) > > The adb is not as good quality as the old adb, and thus you will have > problems with it if you plug in a keyboard I've heard reports from both sides. Many people simply plugged in their keyboards with no trouble at all, and they've worked fine. The reports of success far outnumber the reports of failure. And it's not quality, but something to do with timing. -Peter
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:06:26 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote: > > In article <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck > <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > You still counting? My total is $7,510.82. Check my math, but I got > > everything at full retail price; you can compare anywhere else. Nothing > > is on sale, nothing includes rebates, nothing has been price-shopped. > > Pretty nice little setup, if extravagant. You asked for a lineup and I gave it to you. I didn't write it for my own health. You could have at least gone to the Web page I provided. > Did you get an OS? RedHat 5.2, boxed set. 2000+ pages of hard-bound documentation. If you like, you can tack on $99 for a retail copy of Windows 98. > Got Firewire? Firewire? No. It doesn't have ADB, either. Is that a disadvantage? > Good 2D and 3D video? Matrox G200? Is that good enough? > Nice easy-access > case? 700S Full-Tower with empty bay for additional hot-swap power supply. Five large system fans. Motherboard-mounted health monitor measuring fan speeds, CPU heat, and voltage. Six exposed 5.25" drive bays. Security lock on front panel. Both side panels remove easily for unparalleled access to internals. Good enough? > Just checking. You could do the checking yourself with a single click. MJP
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 04:26:46 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79gg9u$56e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <19990204205615.00364.00001418@ng-ch1.aol.com> <79e5rd$62m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BB1BA5.4B5D1E75@kana.com> In article <36BB1BA5.4B5D1E75@kana.com>, Patrick T Hickey <patrick@kana.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Will, you really seem to dislike the mac ui a lot, as do a number of NeXT > > users - and as a mac user I can understand some of the reasons (8.5 tiled > > running app icons are lovely and I would kill for a dock*) Have anyone > > thought getting some people to seriously attempt to impliment a 3rd party UI? > > There actually has been such a *dock* for years in the form of Greg's Browser. > Solid as a rock. Intuitive. Check it out. I've been using it forever and can't > fathom using anything else on pure Mac OS. OS-X, well, that's going to be another > story. > > http://www.kaleidoscope.net/greg/browser.html > > regards, > > patrick > > Yes ive been using Gregs browser for a couple of years myself. what I was talking about is an application dock.. i used Launcher 1 tile wide down the side of my screen for a while but with each release they make it bulkier and more padded (until 8.5 i was using the 7.5.5 version on 8.1). What ive discovered is very pleasent is the running app tiles you can do with the app menu. its nice and quick to just drag doccuments onto them. I would like a version that lets me have tiles for non running apps as well. RAX. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:21:44 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote: > > In article <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck > <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > You still counting? My total is $7,510.82. Check my math, but I got > > everything at full retail price; you can compare anywhere else. Nothing > > is on sale, nothing includes rebates, nothing has been price-shopped. > > Pretty nice little setup, if extravagant. > > Did you get an OS? Got Firewire? Good 2D and 3D video? Nice easy-access > case? Just checking. > > Trev Here's the output from the form at Penguin Computing, by the way, if you get the additional parts from Penguin instead of paying full retail at CDW: Penguin Computing - Dual Capable Xeon System Supermicro S2DGU Motherboard 700S Full-Tower w/One 300W Power Supply One 450 MHz Xeon Processor with 512 KB Cache 256 MB ECC 100 MHz SDRAM Integrated Adaptec 7890 Ultra2 SCSI Controller Quantum 9.1 GB 7200 RPM Hard Drive Matrox Millennium G200 8MB AGP Graphics Card Viewsonic G810 - 21 Inch Monitor Toshiba 32X EIDE CD-ROM Netgear 10/100 Mbps Ethernet Adapter Soundblaster 64 U.S. Robotics 56K External Fax/Modem Iomega SCSI 2 GB Jaz Drive w/One 2 GB Jaz Disk Keytronic Keyboard and Logitech 3 Button Mouse Sony 3.5" 1.44 MB Floppy Drive Red Hat Linux 5.2 - Boxed Set 2000+ Pages of Hard Bound Linux Documentation Penguin Computing Quick Start Guide Penguin Computing Two Year Warranty System price: $5473 The scanner and printer at CDW came to approximately $700, which takes our total to $6,173.00. That leaves us roughly $1,300 to go buy fancier scanners and printers (the ones already listed were excellent, as it is), or you could just save yourself a cool $1300. Heck, for that much money you could pick up a cute little iMac in tangerine. In fact, that would be a good slogan for Apple's new machines: "One computer for the price of two". MJP
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:23:27 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36BB8B7F.571D7F6B@ericsson.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Peck wrote: > Penguin Computing - Dual Capable Xeon System > > Supermicro S2DGU Motherboard > 700S Full-Tower w/One 300W Power Supply > One 450 MHz Xeon Processor with 512 KB Cache AND (I neglected to mention) I have dropped one of the processors to make the comparison more analogous due to MacOS's lack of SMP capabilities. MJP
From: atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:38:53 -0500 Organization: Waltonschauung Message-ID: <atticus-0502991938530001@user-38lc977.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> Ccb%xGQshhi|g@QU2$ If you want to use it please also use this Authorline. In article <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: :Dual 450MHz processors, 128MB RAM, Ultra2SCSI subsystem, 64-bit sound, :300W power supply, 9GB SCSI drive. : :Start there. The number is $4470, and with $275 added to bring RAM up to :256MB, you're at $4745. It's got an extra processor, but that's not :necessarily important to someone who just bought a Macintosh. G3/450, same peripherals plus DVD, $3,428.00 from the Apple store. And I'm not sure, but I think the Mac's got 32-bit sound. I could have removed the DVD to make the systems more comparable, but that would only have knocked $100 off the total. :CDW has among others, the following 21" monitors for sale right now :(none of them come in cartoon-character blue, unfortunately): : :HP P1100 (.25mm diagonal dot pitch) $1,298.90 :Hitachi SuperScan 814 (.22 *horizontal* dot pitch) $1,498.57 :IBM 202 - Stealth Gray (.25 diagonal dot pitch) $1,327.72 :Princeton EO2010 (.25 diagonal dot pitch) $ 929.01 All those monitors will work on the Mac, too. Most vendors will throw in a Mac adapter for free, but I'll add $10 for one anyway. :So you're not a price shopper. We'll take the most expensive monitor in :the bunch, which brings us up to $6,243.57. G3: $4936.57 Now for printers (again, at :CDW): : :HP 1100SE (8ppm laser printer) $ 399.00 :NEC Superscript 870 (8ppm laser printer) $ 319.97 Throw in the Postscript and 10BT options, and the NEC will work from a Mac. The HP won't. I don't know how much the network adapter and PS software cost, but I'll take a leap and add $250. Printer total: $569.97 (there's a 6ppm Lexmark at CDW for $438.73, but I wanted to stick with the same peripherals as much as possible). :Personally, I love my NEC 870 and all of the awards it, and the 860, :have won. But I'm also a loyal HP customer, so we'll take the more :expensive printer, bringing us up to $6,642.57. G3: $5506.54 :Jaz drive at CDW: : :Jaz 2GB External (or Internal, same price) $ 349.95 : :Total is currently at $6,992.52. The Jaz only comes in SCSI, right? If so, same drive works on the Mac. G3: $5856.49 Let's pick up CDW's most expensive 56K :modem: : :3Com V.Everything (56K, v.90, data/voice/fax) $ 219.30 The G3 comes with v.90 modem for $100, but in the spirit of this exercise, I omitted it, and I'll add CDW's most expensive USB modem -- the MultiTech MultiModem, at $134.32. G3: $6090.81 :I don't know what kind of scanner you got. Here's a nice one: : :HP 5100 Cxi (1200x1200, 36-bit flatbed scanner) $ 299.00 HP's page doesn't list Mac support for the 5200 Cxi (the 5100 has apparently been discontinued), but it has a USB port. Drivers would be the only issue, and there are plenty of comparably-priced scanners with comparable specs, so I'll go with the same price. G3: $6389.81 :You still counting? My total is $7,510.82. That's $1121.01 more for the second processor, and no DVD drive. :Nothing :is on sale, nothing includes rebates, nothing has been price-shopped. :Pretty nice little setup, if extravagant. Ditto to all the above points on the G3. I quoted the G3 at the Apple store, most of the other items from your list, and the others from CDW, the same retailer you used. If your point was that the Apple store isn't the most cost-effective place to buy a lot of peripherals, I agree whole-heartedly. If the point was that you can get a much better PC than Mac for the money, you've fallen short of proving that -- for the most part, except for IDE cards and parallel port peripherals (neither of which I'd want to touch with a ten-foot pole anyway), the peripherals are identical. -- "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Walton * atticus@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:38:52 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-0502992338530001@nas-p9.usc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <atticus-0502991938530001@user-38lc977.dialup.mindspring.com> In article <atticus-0502991938530001@user-38lc977.dialup.mindspring.com>, atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote: > All those monitors will work on the Mac, too. Most vendors will throw in a > Mac adapter for free, but I'll add $10 for one anyway. The G3 comes with a Mac monitor adapter...the video card has a VGA connector. So save your $10. :-) Trev
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:35:53 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> In article <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Got Firewire? > > Firewire? No. It doesn't have ADB, either. Is that a disadvantage? The G3 comes with Firewire. It might be important if you plan to use it. Thanks, though, for demonstrating that you can spend $7500-$8000 for a dual-Xeon box. I bet not many people knew that. I'd rather spend that kind of money on an SGI or an Ultra, or a top-end Mac for that matter, but that's me. Trev
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:17:13 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79fu5g$mek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79fm5c$pks$1@news.eunet.ch> In article <79fm5c$pks$1@news.eunet.ch>, stephane@dial.eunet.ch (Stephane Leon) wrote: > willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote: > > >I hate to say this, but I think you're going to be terribly dissappointed. > > > >The Mac UI is horribly archaic (though since you'll presumably be getting > 8.5 > >you may find it tolerable--I'm hoping I will), and the number of times which > it > >crashes is simply astonishing. > > > >William > > > > Ill see next week for the user interface, if its difficult to me, so just > waiting for OS X and see. There are a few add ons that make Mac OS feel more like NeXTSTEP, if you run them you would probably find the change over quite smooth. I doubt you would find the Mac OS 8.5 GUI vastly inferior to NeXTSTEP. > >I spent most of a day last week reloading the hard drive on my PM 9500/180MP > at > >work with the intention of keeping track of how often it crashed--I gave up > in > >disgust on Tuesday when the count hit five. > > My Next station has crashed once, in the past 7 years, i dont see why it > will be different. The current Mac OS crashes a lot more than NeXTSTEP, hopefully Mac OS X will change that. Just don't expect anything like the robustness of your old NeXTstation. Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:10:11 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> In article <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > You still counting? My total is $7,510.82. Check my math, but I got > everything at full retail price; you can compare anywhere else. Nothing > is on sale, nothing includes rebates, nothing has been price-shopped. > Pretty nice little setup, if extravagant. Did you get an OS? Got Firewire? Good 2D and 3D video? Nice easy-access case? Just checking. Trev
From: Idoru07@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: NeXT/Mac UI... Was: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 6 Feb 1999 06:08:26 GMT Organization: Remove "NoSpam" from email to reply Message-ID: <36BBDC7E.E3D96560@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net> References: <79fm5c$pks$1@news.eunet.ch> <79fu5g$mek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know that for some diehard CLI users GUI is a waste of space, but I am not one of those people. =) I have heard so much praise about the NeXT UI, it has me wondering how much of the NeXT UI has made it into Mac OS X? I have gotten a lot of information from http://www.xmission.com/~yackd/TheMerger/UserInterfaces/UserInterfaces.html But I think this page might be a little dated, so if anyone has anything more recent or precise that might help me find out more, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a bunch. jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > In article <79fm5c$pks$1@news.eunet.ch>, > stephane@dial.eunet.ch (Stephane Leon) wrote: > > willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote: > > > > >I hate to say this, but I think you're going to be terribly dissappointed. > > > > > >The Mac UI is horribly archaic (though since you'll presumably be getting > > 8.5 > > >you may find it tolerable--I'm hoping I will), and the number of times which > > it > > >crashes is simply astonishing. > > > > > >William > > > > > > > Ill see next week for the user interface, if its difficult to me, so just > > waiting for OS X and see. > > There are a few add ons that make Mac OS feel more like NeXTSTEP, if you run > them you would probably find the change over quite smooth. I doubt you would > find the Mac OS 8.5 GUI vastly inferior to NeXTSTEP. > > > >I spent most of a day last week reloading the hard drive on my PM 9500/180MP > > at > > >work with the intention of keeping track of how often it crashed--I gave up > > in > > >disgust on Tuesday when the count hit five. > > > > My Next station has crashed once, in the past 7 years, i dont see why it > > will be different. > > The current Mac OS crashes a lot more than NeXTSTEP, hopefully Mac OS X will > change that. Just don't expect anything like the robustness of your old > NeXTstation. > > Jim > > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 6 Feb 1999 02:17:15 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <79fu5g$mek$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <19990205211715.23948.00000254@ng-ch1.aol.com> Jim9 said: >There are a few add ons that make Mac OS feel more like NeXTSTEP, if you run >them you would probably find the change over quite smooth. I doubt you would >find the Mac OS 8.5 GUI vastly inferior to NeXTSTEP. What add-ons? If they affect the frequency with which the Mac OS crashes, I'm not interested (have tried The Tilery, ApplWindows and Greg's Browser--I can't figure out how to get the latter to sort a file listing). I acknowledged that 8.5 has adopted a lot of NeXT UI features and am glad of that. I want Services though (but can't afford Mac OS X), drag and drop from the Minimize button, iconization of windows as opposed to window shading, etc. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: 6 Feb 1999 02:26:23 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36BB2A6E.4E9D67A4@ncal.verio.com> Message-ID: <19990205212623.23948.00000259@ng-ch1.aol.com> As you noted Mike, the driver support just isn't there and the application support which was there has evaporated. I've been poking around, trying to puzzle out how to get GX installed and to play with it some (hoping to try out TeXGX from <www.sil.org>), but little to no luck. Lawson, you might want to devote some of the time you spend posting here to up-dating the links for the apparently non-existent QuickDraw/GX Fan Club). For the record, the Crosfield where I work uses a pair of SPARC stations (one an UltraSparc) as RIPs (one runs a proprietary trapping package, the other a specialized screening package/RIP). Moreover, with only 11 hours of non-overtime access available, we can't afford to tie up a quarter of a million dollar machine being patient while wonky GX stuff is converted to PostScript and RIPs. Mike, I really appreciate your taking time out of your very busy schedule to post an intelligent and authoritative statement here--I really would like for Mac OS X to work out--but in the meanwhile, I'm holding onto my Cube. (And still trying to figure out a way to get OpenStep 4.2 on my laptop so I can use it at work) William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 6 Feb 1999 00:50:16 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago Message-ID: <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: : I also find these statements unambiguous but I don't take them as an : endorsement of YellowBox. Of course the three mentioned technologies are the : way to write new OS X server applications; there is no carbon support in the : current release OS X Server. : [snipped] : I agree that they are saying that YellowBox will be available in MacOS X. I : disagree that they are giving it a ringing endorsement. : [snipped] Well, this is to be expected considering the negative reaction to developing YellowBox apps from scratch in the past by MacOS developers. Considering the people in charge of MacOS X development are really Next people, I don't think YellowBox is going to go away. Plus before they start to hype YellowBox, they have to make sure the functionality that is available in MacOS/Carbon APIs is available in the YellowBox API set. Anil
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 6 Feb 1999 02:34:15 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36BB1BA5.4B5D1E75@kana.com> Message-ID: <19990205213415.23948.00000263@ng-ch1.aol.com> Patrick said: >There actually has been such a *dock* for years in the form of Greg's >Browser. >Solid as a rock. Intuitive. Check it out. I've been using it forever and >can't >fathom using anything else on pure Mac OS. OS-X, well, that's going to be >another >story. Uh, I think of Greg's Browser as a replacement for NeXT's Workspace.app/File Browser--it's nice, and I can't (afair) directly attribute any crashes to it--but how do you get it to sort directories? I need to be able to sort by date and alphabetically. The Tilery strikes me as more of a dock analogue. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Steve Kellener <skellener@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:19:16 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <19990204205615.00364.00001418@ng-ch1.aol.com> <79e5rd$62m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BB1BA5.4B5D1E75@kana.com> <79gg9u$56e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> To: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <36BBDDED.4548@earthlink.net> raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > What ive discovered is very pleasent is the running app tiles you can do with > the app menu. its nice and quick to just drag doccuments onto them. I would > like a version that lets me have tiles for non running apps as well. As Will stated...."The Tilery" makes quite a nice "dock" with non-running apps as well as running apps. http://www2.Semicolon.com/Rick/Tilery.html Steve
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:38:20 -0800 References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com> Organization: Concentric Message-ID: <macghod-0502992238200001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> In article <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > In fact, that would be a good slogan for Apple's new machines: "One > computer for the price of two". Their new slogan is that the yosemite is the fastest computer in the world. It is too Honest. I wouldnt lie to you. Nor would Apple.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:27:37 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> In article <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) wrote: > Well, this is to be expected considering the negative reaction to > developing YellowBox apps from scratch in the past by MacOS developers. That doesn't stop them from promoting YellowBox for new applications. > Considering the people in charge of MacOS X development are really > Next people, I don't think YellowBox is going to go away. Hard to say. It looks like OpenStep is going away without a replacement in place. > Plus before they start to hype YellowBox, they have to make sure the > functionality that is available in MacOS/Carbon APIs is available in > the YellowBox API set. I'm not sure that this is true. There are a lot of features that are available in YB that are not available in Carbon and that hasn't stopped Apple from promoting Carbon. Also, Apple could offer procedural access to the few valuable Carbon APIs until they can be wrapped. I have also noticed that Apple doesn't seem to be moving any of it's own applications to YB. If Apple is really committed to YellowBox then why wouldn't they write the Mac OS X Finder using the YB? Why wouldn't they use the YB for QuickTime development (since they could more easily deploy on both the Mac OS and Windows)? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.hardware.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Way to go Intergraph!!! Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:29:28 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79gr0k$cr8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-1401991554410001@ts013d31.lap-ca.concentric.net> <369e9688.0@news3.enter.net> <MPG.1108624b23fbac99896a2@news.earthlink.net> <1dln9me.1lwkhquxcollzN@pppsl943.chicagonet.net> <369f88ac.1182181578@news.ultranet.com> <369FC043.C9222019@tone.ca> <1dlp09z.od60ye1no5lcoN@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a04058.5293046@news.ultranet.com> <1dlpsu3.1ofx40b14narc0N@pppsl1489.chicagonet.net> <36a0d27b.42704234@news.ultranet.com> <1dm3fuf.2gg0byi9f0vbN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2301992200300001@happy.met.utah.edu> <1dm4iso.1p6df6o1q5qsldN@pppsl1429.chicagonet.net> <mazulauf-2401991010530001@happy.met.utah.edu> <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com> In article <36AB6DE5.B377DEA5@d.com>, d <d@d.com> wrote: > Check this out: > > http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/9901/veronica-goes-alpha.shtml I did. Why is it relevant to this discussion? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 6 Feb 1999 08:36:58 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/05/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, > amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) wrote: > >> Well, this is to be expected considering the negative reaction to >> developing YellowBox apps from scratch in the past by MacOS developers. > >That doesn't stop them from promoting YellowBox for new applications. > Given the Mac OS Developer temprament... it does.. They have to deliver Carbon to placate these folks before they could dare mention YB in this manner again.. <snip> >> Plus before they start to hype YellowBox, they have to make sure the >> functionality that is available in MacOS/Carbon APIs is available in >> the YellowBox API set. > >I'm not sure that this is true. There are a lot of features that are >available in YB that are not available in Carbon and that hasn't stopped >Apple from promoting Carbon. Also, Apple could offer procedural access to the >few valuable Carbon APIs until they can be wrapped. There could be some changes required thinking ahead to types/creators for example.. >I have also noticed that Apple doesn't seem to be moving any of it's own >applications to YB. <snip> How do you know they aren't doing these things? They've not released a YB capable OS yet.. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Feb5121236@slave.doubleu.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> In-reply-to: Robert Nicholson's message of 04 Feb 1999 17:03:19 -0800 Date: 5 Feb 99 12:12:36 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 01:59:51 PDT In article <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> writes: I'm sorry but so far I'm hearing that MS gets to prepare the machines install the software etc etc. Even without the government being present. Why are they so niave to believe that Microsoft hasn't hacked the installed OS to suit their claims? <...> Why aren't they doing this test properly? Why isn't the judge providing the release of 98 that should be installed on the machines and verifying that it has been done so and why is the government no allowed in the room _until_ the test is about to begin? You're thinking in scientist/engineer terms. But, if the judge were an engineer, when Microsoft suggested that removing IE from Windows98 would slow things down, he'd have given them an immediate billion dollar fine for pulling his chain without a reason. -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Message-ID: <6mVu2.50336$641.29673@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 03:04:11 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 03:05:38 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA >> Considering the people in charge of MacOS X development are really >> Next people, I don't think YellowBox is going to go away. > >Hard to say. It looks like OpenStep is going away without a replacement in >place. Is iCEO Steve still using his ThinkPad with OPENSTEP Intel? --Ed.
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:51:12 +0100 Organization: pv Message-ID: <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > >That doesn't stop them from promoting YellowBox for new applications. > > > > Given the Mac OS Developer temprament... it does.. > > They have to deliver Carbon to placate these folks before they > could dare mention YB in this manner again.. Nonsense. No one knows what the Mac developer reaction really is (other than the few truly big MS, Adobe et al). The thing isn't released yet. You have to realise that the number one, two, ..., ten thing in out mind is the deeply rooted skepticism about Apple's (and now NeXT) ability to actually deliver something other than fancy plans. That we didn't jump to YB is mostly as a result of this. YB? OK! where can we buy it? Can't buy it yet? Then come back later when we can... NeXT people takes that as rejection of YB. Wrong interpretation! - lars -- Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <79dgu9$j684665@news2.bis.adp.com> ignore no reply Control: cancel <79dgu9$j684665@news2.bis.adp.com> Message-ID: <cancel.79dgu9$j684665@news2.bis.adp.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 03:04:28 +0000 Sender: ksephl@faqlist.net From: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk Organization: Annihilator v0.3 Spam (EMP) cancelled. Cancel ID: [YAO*K'$8\X=FD-A#R*:HA_(GUKA])/^3<ISD3]2RM)/^,^*$23#+GWZ
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 6 Feb 1999 14:00:50 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <macghod-0502992238200001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> Message-ID: <19990206090050.06673.00000576@ng-cg1.aol.com> MG said: >Honest. >I wouldnt lie to you. >Nor would Apple. Oh. I see. May I ask then where is the copy of Rhapsody which I may purchase (without signing a developer's agreement/NDA) which will run on my PowerMac 9500/180MP? Oh, no Rhapsody? What about Mac OS X Server? I don't suppose you know if it will include that CD-ROM of third party applications which Apple promised Stone Design, AFS, etc. that they would include? William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: me@home.now (Just*Me) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: 6 Feb 1999 09:56:02 -0600 Organization: Newscene Public Access Usenet News Service (http://www.newscene.com/) Message-ID: <36e165c7.508306640@news2.newscene.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The tests were conducted again in Washington, with the other side present. Apparently the tests do show that Felton's program basically just hides the browsing capability, partially proving M$ right. This whole thing is rapidly approaching the level of OJ's trial.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: 6 Feb 99 09:37:15 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2E1BDCF-1029F@206.165.43.184> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com>: >If you think about it, by using the >NSImage trick, what we're doing in our code is probably very similar to >what >QDGX is doing internally; its just that in the default case, the additional >composite isn't performed. You need to take one additional step to "enable" >the >special composited drawing using AppKit.* Yar, the sample GXText library that attempts to implement NSText-like facilities does just this. I had forgotten about it. Are you familiar with the capabilities of the GX Ink object? There's lot of functionality there that I've yet to hear as appearing in YB graphics (letalone Carbon), like the ability to apply a different composite mode to each color channel. It seems plausible that virtually all of GX's functionality could be recreated using the strategy that you outlined, but, of course, there's still the issue of printing, and the creaction of EPS/PDF images that contain device independent vector graphics that simulate the transparency (and other non-opaque) compositing modes of GX. I suppose that these things CAN be done, but unless Apple does it in a universally available library, the GX-like printing process can't be recreated -and there's a lot of utility to be found there. Thanks for responding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: 6 Feb 99 09:42:52 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2E1BF29-153FF@206.165.43.184> References: <36BA0F95.D084B623@oaai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Mark Onyschuk" <mark@oaai.com> nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> said: >* Why not perform this additonal step for all drawing? Performance! It's >the >80/20 rule as applied to the toolbox. Make the typical 80% of drawing fast >and >efficient, but make the more elaborate 20% of drawing -- transparency, >neat >composite tricks -- possible with an additional step. > Fair enough. I just hope that they create a higher-level YB library to re-implement that GX functionality (at least) out-of-the-box, AND provide a default GX-like library that can be called from within Carbon. There's a lot of cool things that can be done with GX without any extra work that should be available whenever we want them without having to reinvent the wheel. I couldn't even dream of doing a GXFCN-like solution for HyperCard or AppleScript without a built-in database of shapes and other objects, for instance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:14:32 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i0q2$949$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net> In article <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote: > The G3 comes with Firewire. It might be important if you plan to use it. Yes, it might be. > Thanks, though, for demonstrating that you can spend $7500-$8000 for a > dual-Xeon box. I bet not many people knew that. Well, you didn't. That's why you asked to see what one could buy for $7,500. > I'd rather spend that > kind of money on an SGI or an Ultra, or a top-end Mac for that matter, but > that's me. And it's ridiculous. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you could spec out an SGI or an Ultra in that price range. Guess what, Einstein, I occasionally do that for a living. I can tell you that your SGI or Ultra or "top-end Mac" at $7,500 is a massive waste of money. Do you have any idea what Sun charges for a 100 Mbps ethernet card? Do you know what it costs to get a 24-bit framebuffer in your machine? Do you have any idea what it takes to get a large SCSI drive in a Sun box? The quick answer is: even more than Apple charges, which is pathetic. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:21:47 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i17j$9bm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mVu2.50336$641.29673@news.san.rr.com> In article <6mVu2.50336$641.29673@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: > Is iCEO Steve still using his ThinkPad with OPENSTEP Intel? I don't know but that is probably a bad idea for political reasons. He should be using the Mac OS on a PowerBook and Mac OS Server on his desktop machine :-) -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:33:15 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > Given the Mac OS Developer temprament... it does.. > > They have to deliver Carbon to placate these folks before they > could dare mention YB in this manner again.. Why? I don't think that many Carbon developers are scared that Carbon is going away. For Apple to pull Carbon support less than a year away from the release of Mac OS X would be the stupidest (or at least in the top 5) of the many stupid moves Apple has made in the past. > There could be some changes required thinking ahead to > types/creators for example.. Do you really think that this would require such a large change in the design of YellowBox applications that Apple should not promote YB until this (and other similar issues) have been worked out? Apple is hyping Carbon compliance while the ReadMe for the Carbon Dater application states that some portions of the Carbon API are likely to change in the future. > How do you know they aren't doing these things? They've not > released a YB capable OS yet.. Apple has announced that they are not going to implement the Mac OS X Finder in YellowBox. AFAIK, they have not announced that they are moving any of their other applications to YellowBox. Unless this information is top-secret or they really have limited interest in demonstrating that YB is alive and while, why wouldn't they announce any YB application plans? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:34:28 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i1vj$a42$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <macghod-0502992238200001@sdn-ar-001casbarp006.dialsprint.net> <19990206090050.06673.00000576@ng-cg1.aol.com> In article <19990206090050.06673.00000576@ng-cg1.aol.com>, willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote: > MG said: > >Honest. > >I wouldnt lie to you. > >Nor would Apple. > > Oh. I see. May I ask then where is the copy of Rhapsody which I may purchase > (without signing a developer's agreement/NDA) which will run on my PowerMac > 9500/180MP? I'm sure that he was joking. No one would believe that the new G3s are the fastest computers in the world. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:34:07 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i1uv$a3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <atticus-0502991938530001@user-38lc977.dialup.mindspring.com> In article <atticus-0502991938530001@user-38lc977.dialup.mindspring.com>, atticus@mindspring.com (Andy Walton) wrote: > G3/450, same peripherals plus DVD, $3,428.00 from the Apple store. And I'm > not sure, but I think the Mac's got 32-bit sound. I could have removed the > DVD to make the systems more comparable, but that would only have knocked > $100 off the total. That's a G3/400, not a 450. I went to the store, specced out a system, and to get the $3,428.00 figure I had to add an extra SCSI adaptor for the external buses and give it a 400 MHz processor (the fastest available, there wasn't a 450 option). You now have two SCSI cards consuming 2 PCI slots, leaving two. The Penguin Computing system has five empty PCI slots. What's more, the option I specced out was a Dual Xeon system with an exceptional motherboard. That commands a superior price because it's a far superior machine. Trevor asked what you could get for $7,500, and I told him. If you want to start comparing machine prices, you go to Penguin Computing and spec out a single-PII machine. Again, with the 300W power supply and 256MB RAM, but with a single PII at 400MHz, from Penguin: System price: $2555. [cut] > G3: $6389.81 Adding in the above peripherals brings the Penguin system to $5,020.57. > :You still counting? My total is $7,510.82. > > That's $1121.01 more for the second processor, and no DVD drive. No, your system is $1,369.24 more for the privilege of buying a Macintosh. Go find yourself a DVD drive for the diff. [cut] > If your point was that the Apple store isn't the most cost-effective place > to buy a lot of peripherals, I agree whole-heartedly. > > If the point was that you can get a much better PC than Mac for the money, > you've fallen short of proving that -- for the most part, except for IDE > cards and parallel port peripherals (neither of which I'd want to touch > with a ten-foot pole anyway), the peripherals are identical. My point was to answer Trevor Zion Bauknight's question -- and I did. Now I've answered your question, and I *have* proven the point you offered up. If you cross-reference my other reply to Trevor, in which I bought peripherals as a bundle from Penguin, the price difference is even more startling. The Dual-Xeon system was specced to demonstrate that far-superior equipment can be purchased with the same money that chases Macs around. Regards, MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:58:45 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i3d0$b93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net> In article <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote: > The G3 comes with Firewire. It might be important if you plan to use it. You can buy Firewire PCI cards for under $200, I believe. Sony's Velo computers have built-in Firewire even on the laptops. > Thanks, though, for demonstrating that you can spend $7500-$8000 for a > dual-Xeon box. You can spend that kind of money on almost any modern computer with upgrade capability. Just drop in a gig of RAM, a 100GB RAID array, a few Oxygen graphics boards, etc. Or you would buy some expensive peripherals. The original poster included a printer, a scanner and 21-inche monitor in his price. AFAIK, the Mac didn't have any of those things. > I bet not many people knew that. Then you should also be willing to bet that most people aren't very knowledgable. > I'd rather spend that > kind of money on an SGI or an Ultra, or a top-end Mac for that matter, but > that's me. Same here but I think that the point of this discussion was that Mac hardware is still more expensive than equivalent PC hardware. It also annoys me how Steve touted using PC standards in his keynote and then announced a double- speed PCI slot instead of AGP for the new G3s. ATI is already selling the Rage 128 chipset for PCs in the 32MB Fury. The Mac wasn't even ahead in consumer- level graphics performance (assuming that you believe that it was to begin with) for a month. The Fury is $199 BTW. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 6 Feb 1999 19:16:05 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <79i17j$9bm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <19990206141605.23040.00000777@ng-fi1.aol.com> > "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: > >> Is iCEO Steve still using his ThinkPad with OPENSTEP Intel? and Brian said: >I don't know but that is probably a bad idea for political reasons. He should >be using the Mac OS on a PowerBook and Mac OS Server on his desktop machine What's really unfortunate, is that even when one gets the Mac press to take notice of this, they assume he's using Win95. Even when one explains this to them, they refuse to mention his use of OpenStep publicly. Moreover, I don't see how he's going to get all of those Concurrence.app presentations off of it in useful form with a reasonable effort. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:52:14 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> In article <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > Trevor Zion Bauknight wrote: > > > > In article <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck > > <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > > > You still counting? My total is $7,510.82. Check my math, but I got > > > everything at full retail price; you can compare anywhere else. Nothing > > > is on sale, nothing includes rebates, nothing has been price-shopped. > > > Pretty nice little setup, if extravagant. > > You asked for a lineup and I gave it to you. I didn't write it for my > own health. You could have at least gone to the Web page I provided. > > > Did you get an OS? > > RedHat 5.2, boxed set. 2000+ pages of hard-bound documentation. If you > like, you can tack on $99 for a retail copy of Windows 98. > > > Got Firewire? > > Firewire? No. It doesn't have ADB, either. Is that a disadvantage? Yes, it is a disadvantage. > > Good 2D and 3D video? > > Matrox G200? Is that good enough? Poor 3D, the 2D is slightly faster (about 4%) than the ATI card. > > Nice easy-access > > case? > > 700S Full-Tower with empty bay for additional hot-swap power supply. > Five large system fans. I hope it is also soundproof. Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 20:44:41 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79i9jn$g3r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > > Firewire? No. It doesn't have ADB, either. Is that a disadvantage? > > Yes, it is a disadvantage. The Firewire can be remedied for <$200. I don't see not having ADB as a disadvantage. > Poor 3D, the 2D is slightly faster (about 4%) than the ATI card. Than switch it for the Fury. It uses the Rage 128 chipset but has 32MB of memory. List price is $199. Or you could go with the TNT or Voodoo II SLI. > I hope it is also soundproof. This seems like a server system to me. I'd probably compare the Mac to a Dell PII-450 desktop system. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: henryb@aol.com (Henry) Subject: Mac's Hideous UI Message-ID: <9%4v2.47$p85.385643@news.bctel.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 03:20:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:20:21 PDT I will never get used to the hideous Mac UI ........ Yes...how frustrating it is to take a step backwards.... This sucks!
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:57:51 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36BCD6FF.DA4C0D26@exu.ericsson.se> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79i9jn$g3r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: [cut] > > Poor 3D, the 2D is slightly faster (about 4%) than the ATI card. > > Than switch it for the Fury. It uses the Rage 128 chipset but has 32MB of > memory. List price is $199. Or you could go with the TNT or Voodoo II SLI. Interestingly, the Penguin system I specced comes with an option for a Number Nine card with 32MB of RAM. It's primarily offered as an option to drive the SGI 17" flat-panel display Penguin offers. The Number Nine Revolution IVs offer good 3D performance, as well, but the Matrox G200 is an excellent performer on its own. I find little to recommend Jim9's assessment. > > I hope it is also soundproof. > > This seems like a server system to me. I'd probably compare the Mac to a Dell > PII-450 desktop system. It doesn't matter. System fans are not loud; the noise they make is almost undetectable if they are if working order. Jim was looking for clever ways to "sour grapes" what was clearly a lost comparison. In truth, the hard drives in any machine will easily drown out the noise from a hundred fans. MJP
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:53:05 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36BCD5E1.F4E56449@exu.ericsson.se> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > Yes, it is a disadvantage. To each his own. Charge yourself $200 for the FireWire you need. > Poor 3D, the 2D is slightly faster (about 4%) than the ATI card. "Poor 3D"? I would *love* for you to substantiate this. > > 700S Full-Tower with empty bay for additional hot-swap power supply. > > Five large system fans. > > I hope it is also soundproof. [laugh] Good is bad, bad is good. There's always a way to disparage what you cannot attain. MJP
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 03:50:24 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79j2ht$38j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BCD5E1.F4E56449@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36BCD5E1.F4E56449@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > > > Yes, it is a disadvantage. > > To each his own. Charge yourself $200 for the FireWire you need. I would. > > Poor 3D, the 2D is slightly faster (about 4%) than the ATI card. > > "Poor 3D"? I would *love* for you to substantiate this. Sure. PC Pro magazine's verdict was "The fastest 2D card on test, but it's let down by below-average 3D performance." They also said "for high-performance 3D you're better off looking elsewhere" In PC Pro's benchmarks: (comparing 21 different cards) 3D Mark 800x600 ATI: 2,241 (no. 3) Matrox: 1,707 (no. 15) 3D Mark 1,024x768 ATI: 1,701 (no. 1) Matrox: 1,227 (no.15) Open GL 800x600 ATI: 58.5 (no.2) Matrox: 27.8 (no.13) Open GL 1024x768 ATI: 41.5 (no.1) Matrox: 20.7 (no.14) For 2D: (Overall score, WP, Spreadsheet, Graphics and Databases were used in the test) ATI: 1.00 (no.3) Matrox 1.05 (no.1) The overall score: ATI: 2.14 (no.1) Matrox 1.47 (no. 16) The ATI card was their speed award winner, with the Techworks PowerGrafx their value award winner. Based on those results the Matrox has slightly faster 2D graphics. Significantly slower 3D Mark performance. And very poor Open GL, the ATI card was twice as fast. Considering that this is a PC magazine, I doubt they would be biased because it is in the Mac. Now I would *love* for you to tell me how it *doesn't* have "Poor 3D". > > > 700S Full-Tower with empty bay for additional hot-swap power supply. > > > Five large system fans. > > > > I hope it is also soundproof. > > [laugh] Good is bad, bad is good. There's always a way to disparage what > you cannot attain. If having all those fans doesn't make it unpleasantly noisy, then that is fine. Incidentaly how do you know what I can or can't obtain? Do you know my occupation and salary? Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 03:52:49 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79j2me$3a6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79i9jn$g3r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BCD6FF.DA4C0D26@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36BCD6FF.DA4C0D26@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > > [cut] > > > > Poor 3D, the 2D is slightly faster (about 4%) than the ATI card. > > > > Than switch it for the Fury. It uses the Rage 128 chipset but has 32MB of > > memory. List price is $199. Or you could go with the TNT or Voodoo II SLI. > > Interestingly, the Penguin system I specced comes with an option for a > Number Nine card with 32MB of RAM. It's primarily offered as an option > to drive the SGI 17" flat-panel display Penguin offers. The Number Nine > Revolution IVs offer good 3D performance, as well, but the Matrox G200 > is an excellent performer on its own. I find little to recommend Jim9's > assessment. In the latest PC Pro they found that it has poor 3D, for Open GL they found it less than half as fast as the ATI card, for 3D mark they found it significantly slower. I quoted all the details in another post. > > > I hope it is also soundproof. > > > > This seems like a server system to me. I'd probably compare the Mac to a Dell > > PII-450 desktop system. > > It doesn't matter. System fans are not loud; the noise they make is > almost undetectable if they are if working order. Jim was looking for > clever ways to "sour grapes" what was clearly a lost comparison. In > truth, the hard drives in any machine will easily drown out the noise > from a hundred fans. If it doesn't make much noise, then fair enough. But some systems I have used (including some Macs, and especialy older SGI systems) have real noise problems. Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <eusmpec@exu.ericsson.se> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:26:02 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Inc. Message-ID: <36BD23EA.B124E8E@exu.ericsson.se> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BCD5E1.F4E56449@exu.ericsson.se> <79j2ht$38j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: [cut] > In PC Pro's benchmarks: (comparing 21 different cards) [cut benchmarks] In all of these benchmarks, the ATI shows superb performance relative to the Matrox. This relative judgment has nothing at all to do with the performance of the Matrox G200, which is excellent. The fact that more recent introductions into the market exceed its performance is irrelevant; there is nothing "poor" about the 3D performance of the Matrox G200, period. If you would like to amend your previous remarks, wherein you said "poor 3D", go right ahead. Say something like "the Mac has better graphics". You've got nowhere to go because Brian Quinlan has already amply explained the fact that PC-capable ATI Rage 128 cards were available over a month prior to their introduction with the Yosemite Macs. So go and add the ATI Fury 128 to your shopping list along with the FireWire. Then proceed to step 3) which is "what the hell is your point, troll?" > Considering that this is a PC magazine, I doubt they would be biased because > it is in the Mac. It was a PC chipset before it was a chipset. > Now I would *love* for you to tell me how it *doesn't* have "Poor 3D". It has "poor 3D" because the ATI has superb 3D? > If having all those fans doesn't make it unpleasantly noisy, then that is > fine. Incidentaly how do you know what I can or can't obtain? Do you know my > occupation and salary? I said "attain", not "obtain". I've no need to argue with dipshits and trolls. Differentiate yourself with a) a point, and b) some reading comprehension. MJP
From: oberon@xxxx.xxxxx.xxx (Oberon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Mac's Hideous UI Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 20:50:03 -0800 Organization: I'd tell you but it's a secret, shhh... Message-ID: <oberon-0602992050030001@sji-ca12-123.ix.netcom.com> References: <9%4v2.47$p85.385643@news.bctel.net> I am very comfortable with the wonderful Mac UI ... Yes... how nice that it improves every six months... This is great! Henry wrote: > I will never get used to the hideous Mac UI ........ > > Yes...how frustrating it is to take a step backwards.... > > This sucks! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oberon "Anyone who has begun to think places some portion of the world in jeopardy." -- John Dewey
From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <29381917758824@digifix.com> Date: 7 Feb 1999 04:44:42 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <631918363637@digifix.com> Topics include: Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites NeXTanswers Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites ============================================ The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise. Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server http://www.stepwise.com Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related Frequently Asked Questions. NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org http://www.peak.org/next http://www.peak.org/openstep http://www.peak.org/rhapsody PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North America. Peanuts Archive http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/NEXTSTEP http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/OpenStep http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/Rhapsody http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/MacOSX http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/WebObjects http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/GeneralData The Peanuts-Archive is the premier site in Europe and mirrored in whole or parts all over the world. Apple Enterprise Software Group (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) http://enterprise.apple.com http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software patches. Apple Computer's Mac OS X Server Site http://www.apple.com/macosx/ Apple Computer's Mac OS X Server Developer Site http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/ Apple Computer's WebObjects Site http://www.apple.com/webobjects/ Mac OS X Server Developer Documentation http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/macosxserver.html WebObjects Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups ==================================================== COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific groups as well. COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. ** RELATED NEWSGROUPS ** COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. COMP.OBJECT Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites ================================= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.peanuts.org: (Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site. Very well maintained. ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 7 Feb 1999 05:00:40 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> In-Reply-To: <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> On 02/06/99, Lars Farm wrote: >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > >> >That doesn't stop them from promoting YellowBox for new applications. >> > >> >> Given the Mac OS Developer temprament... it does.. >> >> They have to deliver Carbon to placate these folks before they >> could dare mention YB in this manner again.. > >Nonsense. If you say so.. however the historical evidence (when YB was uttered in the past) proves you wrong.. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Roy" <roy@nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <9%4v2.47$p85.385643@news.bctel.net> <oberon-0602992050030001@sji-ca12-123.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Mac's Hideous UI Message-ID: <Zo9v2.9010$NQ.8545@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 05:20:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 21:20:57 PDT Organization: @Home Network Ladies and gentlement. Do not be alarmed by the two posts you have read. You have just witnessed a star trek, "Mirror Mirror" moment. Oberon wrote in message ... >I am very comfortable with the wonderful Mac UI ... > >Yes... how nice that it improves every six months... > >This is great! > > >Henry wrote: > >> I will never get used to the hideous Mac UI ........ >> >> Yes...how frustrating it is to take a step backwards.... >> >> This sucks! > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Oberon >"Anyone who has begun to think places some portion of the world >in jeopardy." -- John Dewey
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 7 Feb 1999 05:07:52 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/06/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com>, > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > >> Given the Mac OS Developer temprament... it does.. >> >> They have to deliver Carbon to placate these folks before they >> could dare mention YB in this manner again.. > >Why? I don't think that many Carbon developers are scared that Carbon is going >away. For Apple to pull Carbon support less than a year away from the release >of Mac OS X would be the stupidest (or at least in the top 5) of the many >stupid moves Apple has made in the past. > Funny you'd say that considering thta Apple hasn't delivered _any_ Carbon-able OS yet.. not even as a beta. :-) I'm not suggesting that they should pull it.. but until they actually deliver it to them, they have it in their hands... they're not gonna believe it.. Witness Lars Farm's response elsewhere in this thread.. >> There could be some changes required thinking ahead to >> types/creators for example.. > >Do you really think that this would require such a large change in the design >of YellowBox applications that Apple should not promote YB until this (and >other similar issues) have been worked out? Would it be this major? No.. not likely.. I do expect many additions... > Apple is hyping Carbon compliance >while the ReadMe for the Carbon Dater application states that some portions of >the Carbon API are likely to change in the future. > But this has been common in the mac past... the APIs may not change, but the calls break because you're forced to deal at such a low level to do everything.. >> How do you know they aren't doing these things? They've not >> released a YB capable OS yet.. > >Apple has announced that they are not going to implement the Mac OS X Finder >in YellowBox. Announced? Certainly that is the rumor... Why would they announce that they were going to make a new Finder... Mac Users LOVE the Finder as is. Why should they be concerned what it is written in? They just care that it works like they already know. >AFAIK, they have not announced that they are moving any of >their other applications to YellowBox. Unless this information is top-secret >or they really have limited interest in demonstrating that YB is alive and >while, why wouldn't they announce any YB application plans? First.. why would they promote this? To placate the small group of YB developers that exist now? Not likely... Second.. What would promoting this do for their Mac OS (Carbon) developers? Scare them... not good. They're a skittish creature... -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 6 Feb 1999 21:46:01 -0800 Organization: Institute of Lawsonomy Message-ID: <79j9ap$f69$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> Cache-Post-Path: 52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net!tzs@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net Trevor Zion Bauknight <trev@sc.edu> wrote: >In article <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net>, satan@hell.org >> The phrase "more money than sense" comes to mind. I'd tell you what you >> could've gotten for that much money, but i don't want to ruin your day. > >Oh, go ahead. Let's see it. Not too hard: I don't get anywhere near $7500 if I price the same basic system at www.apple.com, and then add in reasonable amounts for the scanner and printer and Jaz 2G drive (and whatever else the first poster mentioned). --Tim Smith
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:53:31 -0800 References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <atticus-0502991938530001@user-38lc977.dialup.mindspring.com> <79i1uv$a3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: Concentric Message-ID: <macghod-0602992253310001@sdn-ar-001casbarp164.dialsprint.net> In article <79i1uv$a3n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: > That's a G3/400, not a 450. I went to the store, specced out a system, and to > get the $3,428.00 figure I had to add an extra SCSI adaptor for the external > buses and give it a 400 MHz processor (the fastest available, there wasn't a > 450 option). You now have two SCSI cards consuming 2 PCI slots, leaving two. > The Penguin Computing system has five empty PCI slots Actually the yosemite doesnt come with scsi, so if you add the $49 scsi option you have only one scsi card. Otherwise you have no scsi.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:10:08 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > If you say so.. however the historical evidence (when YB was > uttered in the past) proves you wrong.. Originally, wasn't Amelio trying to replace the traditional Mac OS toolbox with YellowBox? If that was the case then, of course, most toolbox developers would be upset. Now that Carbon is going to be supported as far as the eye can see, why would Toolbox developers care if YellowBox was promoted? It's just another technology (like OpenDoc or GX) that they can watch and evaluate over time. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:15:58 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79jeja$c4m$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79i9jn$g3r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BCD6FF.DA4C0D26@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36BCD6FF.DA4C0D26@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > Interestingly, the Penguin system I specced comes with an option for a > Number Nine card with 32MB of RAM. It's primarily offered as an option > to drive the SGI 17" flat-panel display Penguin offers. SGI uses this card because it has digital output which allows for better color consistency for their digital flat-panel display. I don't know how much the card is used for actual 3D calculations. > It doesn't matter. System fans are not loud; the noise they make is > almost undetectable if they are if working order. Jim was looking for > clever ways to "sour grapes" what was clearly a lost comparison. In > truth, the hard drives in any machine will easily drown out the noise > from a hundred fans. I didn't suggest comparing the new G3s to a Dell PII-450 because of the fans. I did it because you started with a computer with more expansion capability and a higher price. The test would be more interesting if you used similar configurations but demonstrated a price difference. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:34:46 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79jfmm$clq$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BCD5E1.F4E56449@exu.ericsson.se> <79j2ht$38j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BD23EA.B124E8E@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36BD23EA.B124E8E@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > The fact that more > recent introductions into the market exceed its performance is > irrelevant; there is nothing "poor" about the 3D performance of the > Matrox G200, period. I'm not sure that I agree with you here. We use relative measures for computer performance because we don't want to classify everything as poor. For example, the Matrox G200 cannot do realtime forward raytracing*. Instead, it uses a primitive z-buffer technique. So how, without comparing the G200 to other technologies, can you consider it good? > You've got nowhere to go because Brian Quinlan has already amply > explained the fact that PC-capable ATI Rage 128 cards were available > over a month prior to their introduction with the Yosemite Macs. Actually, I said that they were available less than a month after they were available for the new G3s. OTOH, they have 16MB more memory and use AGP so a month isn't too bad a wait. One of the problems with Macs is that Apple designs them with fast video and then leaves the video system alone for about a year. PC vendors use the best cards as they become available for their high-end systems. * nor can any computer -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Mike Smith" <msxxxxxxx@earthlink.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 05:10:54 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <79joqi$eji$1@camel19.mindspring.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36e165c7.508306640@news2.newscene.com> Here is part of the transcript of the cross-exam of Allchin by Boies on the Felton videotape after the videotape was originally shown from http://microsoft.com/presspass/trial/transcripts/feb99/02-01-pm.htm: 12 Q. WERE THESE FILMED FROM A SCRIPT? 13 A. I THINK THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES. 14 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE THE SCRIPT? 15 A. WE WORKED OUT THE--YOU MEAN DID I SEE THE DIALOGUE 16 ITSELF, THE ANSWER IS NO. WHAT I SAW WAS I WANT TO THIS, 17 THIS, THIS, THIS TO BE SHOWN. 18 Q. DO I UNDERSTAND YOU TO BE SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE 19 THERE WAS A SCRIPT CREATED BUT THAT YOU NEVER ACTUALLY SAW 20 IT? 21 A. I THINK THE ANSWER IS DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY 22 "SCRIPT." 23 Q. LET ME EXPLAIN, IF I CAN. AND I DON'T MEAN TO 24 INTERRUPT YOU, BUT IF YOU GOT SOMETHING MORE TO SAY, GO 25 AHEAD. 25 1 A. NO, THEY--I--SINCE I WASN'T AT THE FILMING, I EXPECT 2 THEY WERE USING A TELEPROMOTER, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE. SO 3 IN THE SENSE THAT THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN AS A SCRIPT-- 4 Q. YES. 5 A. --THEN IT WOULD BE YES. 6 Q. AND BY "SCRIPT," I MEAN SOMETHING THAT'S WRITTEN DOWN 7 THAT THE PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO SAY WORD FOR WORD AS YOU 8 GO THROUGH THE DEMONSTRATION. 9 A. I CAN'T GUARANTEE IT, BUT I THINK THERE WAS. AND 10 ALTHOUGH IT NEVER WORKS OUT THAT WAY, THEY TEND TO SAY FEW 11 OTHER THINGS. 12 Q. NOW, WHO PREPARED THAT SCRIPT? 13 A. A SERIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAD, IN FACT, SEEN TESTS RUN. 14 WE, FOR EXAMPLE, PEOPLE ON MY TEAM AND MYSELF, WE SAID 15 THIS, YOU KNOW, WOULD BE A GOOD DEMONSTRATION, THIS WOULD 16 BE A GOOD DEMONSTRATION. SO, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE. 17 Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE INVOLVED IN 18 WORKING ON THE DEMONSTRATIONS AND TALKING ABOUT IT. WHAT 19 I'M NOW TRYING TO FOCUS ON IS WHO WROTE WHAT THE VARIOUS 20 PEOPLE SAID, IF YOU KNOW. 21 A. THE HONEST TRUTH IS I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS PROBABLY A 22 VARIETY OF PEOPLE BECAUSE TAKE--MY TECHNICAL ASSISTANT 23 VINOD, WHO WAS SHOWN THERE IN BE, I KNOW THAT WAS FILMED 24 SEVERAL TIMES BECAUSE I WOULD GET BACK THE TAPE, AND I 25 WOULD LOOK AT IT AND SAY, "YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T REALLY LIKE 26 1 THE WAY YOU DID THIS, WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT," BUT HE 2 ACTUALLY CRAFTED THE WORDS BEHIND IT. 3 Q. SO, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SEVERAL VERSIONS OF VARIOUS 4 SECTIONS OF THIS TAPE AS IT WENT ALONG; IS THAT RIGHT? 5 A. YES, SIR. 6 Q. DID YOU KEEP THOSE? 7 A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW. 8 Q. WHO WOULD KNOW THAT, SIR? 9 A. I'M NOT SURE. PROBABLY MICROSOFT AUDIO-VISUAL. I'M 10 NOT SURE. 11 Q. WOULD YOU BE PREPARED OVER NIGHT TO SEE WHETHER THEY 12 HAVE THE VARIOUS DRAFTS OR VERSIONS OF THIS PRESENTATION? 13 A. I CAN CERTAINLY TRY. I MEAN-- 14 Q. I WOULD APPRECIATE IT. 15 A. OKAY. 16 Q. WERE LAWYERS INVOLVED IN PREPARING THE SCRIPT AT ALL? 17 A. YES. 18 WELL, TO BE CLEAR, WHEN YOU SAID "SCRIPT," THEY 19 WERE INVOLVED IN REVIEWING THE RESULTS AND INVOLVED IN 20 SAYING, "WHAT ABOUT THIS, WHAT ABOUT THIS?" DID THEY 21 ACTUALLY WRITE THE WORDS? NO. THE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE 22 PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED THE MOST IN THE ACTUAL VERBIAGE. 23 Q. AS FAR AS ACTUALLY WRITING WORDS, DID THE LAWYERS 24 PARTICIPATE IN THAT? 25 A. I CAN'T SAY EXACTLY. I DON'T KNOW. 1 Q. OKAY. NOW, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOU CHECKED 2 THROUGH THIS TO SATISFY YOURSELF THAT THE DEMONSTRATION 3 WAS, AS NEAR AS YOU COULD TELL, FAIR AND ACCURATE? 4 A. YES. THE TRUTH IS THAT I DID THAT SEVERAL TIMES. I 5 OBVIOUSLY MISSED ONE PIECE BEFORE BECAUSE I HAD SEEN SO 6 MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF IT. SO YES, I PERSONALLY SAW 7 ALL THE SHOTS AND--AND--PERIOD. Just*Me wrote in message <36e165c7.508306640@news2.newscene.com>... >The tests were conducted again in Washington, with the other side >present. Apparently the tests do show that Felton's program basically >just hides the browsing capability, partially proving M$ right. > >This whole thing is rapidly approaching the level of OJ's trial.
From: "Mike Smith" <msxxxxxxx@earthlink.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 05:10:54 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <79jot5$jr7$1@camel19.mindspring.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36e165c7.508306640@news2.newscene.com> Here is part of the transcript of the cross-exam of Allchin by Boies on the Felton videotape after the videotape was originally shown from http://microsoft.com/presspass/trial/transcripts/feb99/02-01-pm.htm: 12 Q. WERE THESE FILMED FROM A SCRIPT? 13 A. I THINK THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES. 14 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE THE SCRIPT? 15 A. WE WORKED OUT THE--YOU MEAN DID I SEE THE DIALOGUE 16 ITSELF, THE ANSWER IS NO. WHAT I SAW WAS I WANT TO THIS, 17 THIS, THIS, THIS TO BE SHOWN. 18 Q. DO I UNDERSTAND YOU TO BE SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE 19 THERE WAS A SCRIPT CREATED BUT THAT YOU NEVER ACTUALLY SAW 20 IT? 21 A. I THINK THE ANSWER IS DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY 22 "SCRIPT." 23 Q. LET ME EXPLAIN, IF I CAN. AND I DON'T MEAN TO 24 INTERRUPT YOU, BUT IF YOU GOT SOMETHING MORE TO SAY, GO 25 AHEAD. 25 1 A. NO, THEY--I--SINCE I WASN'T AT THE FILMING, I EXPECT 2 THEY WERE USING A TELEPROMOTER, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE. SO 3 IN THE SENSE THAT THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN AS A SCRIPT-- 4 Q. YES. 5 A. --THEN IT WOULD BE YES. 6 Q. AND BY "SCRIPT," I MEAN SOMETHING THAT'S WRITTEN DOWN 7 THAT THE PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO SAY WORD FOR WORD AS YOU 8 GO THROUGH THE DEMONSTRATION. 9 A. I CAN'T GUARANTEE IT, BUT I THINK THERE WAS. AND 10 ALTHOUGH IT NEVER WORKS OUT THAT WAY, THEY TEND TO SAY FEW 11 OTHER THINGS. 12 Q. NOW, WHO PREPARED THAT SCRIPT? 13 A. A SERIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAD, IN FACT, SEEN TESTS RUN. 14 WE, FOR EXAMPLE, PEOPLE ON MY TEAM AND MYSELF, WE SAID 15 THIS, YOU KNOW, WOULD BE A GOOD DEMONSTRATION, THIS WOULD 16 BE A GOOD DEMONSTRATION. SO, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE. 17 Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE INVOLVED IN 18 WORKING ON THE DEMONSTRATIONS AND TALKING ABOUT IT. WHAT 19 I'M NOW TRYING TO FOCUS ON IS WHO WROTE WHAT THE VARIOUS 20 PEOPLE SAID, IF YOU KNOW. 21 A. THE HONEST TRUTH IS I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS PROBABLY A 22 VARIETY OF PEOPLE BECAUSE TAKE--MY TECHNICAL ASSISTANT 23 VINOD, WHO WAS SHOWN THERE IN BE, I KNOW THAT WAS FILMED 24 SEVERAL TIMES BECAUSE I WOULD GET BACK THE TAPE, AND I 25 WOULD LOOK AT IT AND SAY, "YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T REALLY LIKE 26 1 THE WAY YOU DID THIS, WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT," BUT HE 2 ACTUALLY CRAFTED THE WORDS BEHIND IT. 3 Q. SO, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SEVERAL VERSIONS OF VARIOUS 4 SECTIONS OF THIS TAPE AS IT WENT ALONG; IS THAT RIGHT? 5 A. YES, SIR. 6 Q. DID YOU KEEP THOSE? 7 A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW. 8 Q. WHO WOULD KNOW THAT, SIR? 9 A. I'M NOT SURE. PROBABLY MICROSOFT AUDIO-VISUAL. I'M 10 NOT SURE. 11 Q. WOULD YOU BE PREPARED OVER NIGHT TO SEE WHETHER THEY 12 HAVE THE VARIOUS DRAFTS OR VERSIONS OF THIS PRESENTATION? 13 A. I CAN CERTAINLY TRY. I MEAN-- 14 Q. I WOULD APPRECIATE IT. 15 A. OKAY. 16 Q. WERE LAWYERS INVOLVED IN PREPARING THE SCRIPT AT ALL? 17 A. YES. 18 WELL, TO BE CLEAR, WHEN YOU SAID "SCRIPT," THEY 19 WERE INVOLVED IN REVIEWING THE RESULTS AND INVOLVED IN 20 SAYING, "WHAT ABOUT THIS, WHAT ABOUT THIS?" DID THEY 21 ACTUALLY WRITE THE WORDS? NO. THE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE 22 PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED THE MOST IN THE ACTUAL VERBIAGE. 23 Q. AS FAR AS ACTUALLY WRITING WORDS, DID THE LAWYERS 24 PARTICIPATE IN THAT? 25 A. I CAN'T SAY EXACTLY. I DON'T KNOW. 1 Q. OKAY. NOW, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOU CHECKED 2 THROUGH THIS TO SATISFY YOURSELF THAT THE DEMONSTRATION 3 WAS, AS NEAR AS YOU COULD TELL, FAIR AND ACCURATE? 4 A. YES. THE TRUTH IS THAT I DID THAT SEVERAL TIMES. I 5 OBVIOUSLY MISSED ONE PIECE BEFORE BECAUSE I HAD SEEN SO 6 MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF IT. SO YES, I PERSONALLY SAW 7 ALL THE SHOTS AND--AND--PERIOD. Just*Me wrote in message <36e165c7.508306640@news2.newscene.com>... >The tests were conducted again in Washington, with the other side >present. Apparently the tests do show that Felton's program basically >just hides the browsing capability, partially proving M$ right. > >This whole thing is rapidly approaching the level of OJ's trial.
From: "Mike Smith" <msxxxxxxx@earthlink.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 05:14:24 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Message-ID: <79jp12$une$1@camel19.mindspring.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36e165c7.508306640@news2.newscene.com> Here is part of the transcript of the cross-exam of Allchin by Boies on the Felton videotape after the videotape was originally shown from http://microsoft.com/presspass/trial/transcripts/feb99/02-01-pm.htm: 12 Q. WERE THESE FILMED FROM A SCRIPT? 13 A. I THINK THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES. 14 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE THE SCRIPT? 15 A. WE WORKED OUT THE--YOU MEAN DID I SEE THE DIALOGUE 16 ITSELF, THE ANSWER IS NO. WHAT I SAW WAS I WANT TO THIS, 17 THIS, THIS, THIS TO BE SHOWN. 18 Q. DO I UNDERSTAND YOU TO BE SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE 19 THERE WAS A SCRIPT CREATED BUT THAT YOU NEVER ACTUALLY SAW 20 IT? 21 A. I THINK THE ANSWER IS DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY 22 "SCRIPT." 23 Q. LET ME EXPLAIN, IF I CAN. AND I DON'T MEAN TO 24 INTERRUPT YOU, BUT IF YOU GOT SOMETHING MORE TO SAY, GO 25 AHEAD. 25 1 A. NO, THEY--I--SINCE I WASN'T AT THE FILMING, I EXPECT 2 THEY WERE USING A TELEPROMOTER, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE. SO 3 IN THE SENSE THAT THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN AS A SCRIPT-- 4 Q. YES. 5 A. --THEN IT WOULD BE YES. 6 Q. AND BY "SCRIPT," I MEAN SOMETHING THAT'S WRITTEN DOWN 7 THAT THE PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO SAY WORD FOR WORD AS YOU 8 GO THROUGH THE DEMONSTRATION. 9 A. I CAN'T GUARANTEE IT, BUT I THINK THERE WAS. AND 10 ALTHOUGH IT NEVER WORKS OUT THAT WAY, THEY TEND TO SAY FEW 11 OTHER THINGS. 12 Q. NOW, WHO PREPARED THAT SCRIPT? 13 A. A SERIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAD, IN FACT, SEEN TESTS RUN. 14 WE, FOR EXAMPLE, PEOPLE ON MY TEAM AND MYSELF, WE SAID 15 THIS, YOU KNOW, WOULD BE A GOOD DEMONSTRATION, THIS WOULD 16 BE A GOOD DEMONSTRATION. SO, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE. 17 Q. I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE INVOLVED IN 18 WORKING ON THE DEMONSTRATIONS AND TALKING ABOUT IT. WHAT 19 I'M NOW TRYING TO FOCUS ON IS WHO WROTE WHAT THE VARIOUS 20 PEOPLE SAID, IF YOU KNOW. 21 A. THE HONEST TRUTH IS I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS PROBABLY A 22 VARIETY OF PEOPLE BECAUSE TAKE--MY TECHNICAL ASSISTANT 23 VINOD, WHO WAS SHOWN THERE IN BE, I KNOW THAT WAS FILMED 24 SEVERAL TIMES BECAUSE I WOULD GET BACK THE TAPE, AND I 25 WOULD LOOK AT IT AND SAY, "YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T REALLY LIKE 26 1 THE WAY YOU DID THIS, WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT," BUT HE 2 ACTUALLY CRAFTED THE WORDS BEHIND IT. 3 Q. SO, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SEVERAL VERSIONS OF VARIOUS 4 SECTIONS OF THIS TAPE AS IT WENT ALONG; IS THAT RIGHT? 5 A. YES, SIR. 6 Q. DID YOU KEEP THOSE? 7 A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW. 8 Q. WHO WOULD KNOW THAT, SIR? 9 A. I'M NOT SURE. PROBABLY MICROSOFT AUDIO-VISUAL. I'M 10 NOT SURE. 11 Q. WOULD YOU BE PREPARED OVER NIGHT TO SEE WHETHER THEY 12 HAVE THE VARIOUS DRAFTS OR VERSIONS OF THIS PRESENTATION? 13 A. I CAN CERTAINLY TRY. I MEAN-- 14 Q. I WOULD APPRECIATE IT. 15 A. OKAY. 16 Q. WERE LAWYERS INVOLVED IN PREPARING THE SCRIPT AT ALL? 17 A. YES. 18 WELL, TO BE CLEAR, WHEN YOU SAID "SCRIPT," THEY 19 WERE INVOLVED IN REVIEWING THE RESULTS AND INVOLVED IN 20 SAYING, "WHAT ABOUT THIS, WHAT ABOUT THIS?" DID THEY 21 ACTUALLY WRITE THE WORDS? NO. THE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE 22 PROBABLY CONTRIBUTED THE MOST IN THE ACTUAL VERBIAGE. 23 Q. AS FAR AS ACTUALLY WRITING WORDS, DID THE LAWYERS 24 PARTICIPATE IN THAT? 25 A. I CAN'T SAY EXACTLY. I DON'T KNOW. 1 Q. OKAY. NOW, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOU CHECKED 2 THROUGH THIS TO SATISFY YOURSELF THAT THE DEMONSTRATION 3 WAS, AS NEAR AS YOU COULD TELL, FAIR AND ACCURATE? 4 A. YES. THE TRUTH IS THAT I DID THAT SEVERAL TIMES. I 5 OBVIOUSLY MISSED ONE PIECE BEFORE BECAUSE I HAD SEEN SO 6 MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF IT. SO YES, I PERSONALLY SAW 7 ALL THE SHOTS AND--AND--PERIOD. Just*Me wrote in message <36e165c7.508306640@news2.newscene.com>... >The tests were conducted again in Washington, with the other side >present. Apparently the tests do show that Felton's program basically >just hides the browsing capability, partially proving M$ right. > >This whole thing is rapidly approaching the level of OJ's trial.
From: pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:39:43 -0500 Organization: University Of Pittsburgh Message-ID: <pxpst2-0702991239430001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > Originally, wasn't Amelio trying to replace the traditional Mac OS toolbox > with YellowBox? If that was the case then, of course, most toolbox developers > would be upset. Now that Carbon is going to be supported as far as the eye > can see, why would Toolbox developers care if YellowBox was promoted? It's > just another technology (like OpenDoc or GX) that they can watch and evaluate > over time. Carbon as best that I can tell is simply a bridge to the future for developers. If developers decide to continue writing using the exsisting toolbox APIs then they are/will be fools. Yellowbox adds functionality and portability that the exsisting toolbox does not. Peter -- " Don't you eat that yellow snow Watch out where the huskies go" FZ
From: jim9@postmaster.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 18:40:26 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79kmmp$a40$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <79i30q$arv$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BCD5E1.F4E56449@exu.ericsson.se> <79j2ht$38j$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BD23EA.B124E8E@exu.ericsson.se> In article <36BD23EA.B124E8E@exu.ericsson.se>, Michael.Peck@Ericsson.com wrote: > jim9@postmaster.co.uk wrote: > > [cut] > > > In PC Pro's benchmarks: (comparing 21 different cards) > > [cut benchmarks] > > In all of these benchmarks, the ATI shows superb performance relative to > the Matrox. This relative judgment has nothing at all to do with the > performance of the Matrox G200, which is excellent. The fact that more > recent introductions into the market exceed its performance is > irrelevant; there is nothing "poor" about the 3D performance of the > Matrox G200, period. > > If you would like to amend your previous remarks, wherein you said "poor > 3D", go right ahead. Say something like "the Mac has better graphics". > You've got nowhere to go because Brian Quinlan has already amply > explained the fact that PC-capable ATI Rage 128 cards were available > over a month prior to their introduction with the Yosemite Macs. So go > and add the ATI Fury 128 to your shopping list along with the FireWire. > Then proceed to step 3) which is "what the hell is your point, troll?" OK, poor 3D relative to other graphics cards available at the moment. I am not saying that you can't get the ATI card for the PC. But in the list of hardware that was posted, the Matrox card was used, the Matrox card is inferior to the ATI card. In that list of hardware, substitute the ATI card for the Matrox card, then you have a system that compares better with the Mac. > > Considering that this is a PC magazine, I doubt they would be biased because > > it is in the Mac. > > It was a PC chipset before it was a chipset. I assume you mean "before it was a Mac chipset", in which case, I know that. > > Now I would *love* for you to tell me how it *doesn't* have "Poor 3D". > > It has "poor 3D" because the ATI has superb 3D? The Commadore 64 has poor speed because the PII and G3 have superb speed. Do you see? > > If having all those fans doesn't make it unpleasantly noisy, then that is > > fine. Incidentaly how do you know what I can or can't obtain? Do you know my > > occupation and salary? > > I said "attain", not "obtain". I've no need to argue with dipshits and > trolls. Differentiate yourself with a) a point, and b) some reading > comprehension. What exactly is *your* point? Jim -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:33:33 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > Funny you'd say that considering thta Apple hasn't delivered > _any_ Carbon-able OS yet.. not even as a beta. :-) > > I'm not suggesting that they should pull it.. but until they > actually deliver it to them, they have it in their hands... they're > not gonna believe it.. I understand your point. Until Apple ships a technology, it's hard to treate it as anything other than vapor. However, in this case, if Apple ships Mac OS X without Carbon support then they are slitting their own throats. Without Carbon, most of the applications that Mac users know and love won't be available in Mac OS X. That would hurt Apple really really badly. Of course, Apple could cancel Mac OS X but that wouldn't hurt Carbon developers (except in the sense that it would hurt the entire Mac market). [snipped] > Would it be this major? No.. not likely.. I do expect many > additions... So do I (if Apple is really committed to YB) but additions are the normal state of affairs for most living APIs and frameworks. > But this has been common in the mac past... the APIs may not > change, but the calls break because you're forced to deal at such a > low level to do everything.. I don't see your point. [snipped] > Why would they announce that they were going to make a new > Finder... Mac Users LOVE the Finder as is. Why should they be > concerned what it is written in? They just care that it works like > they already know. Because the Finder isn't nearly as customizable as the Workspace and Apple seems to love customizability these days. They don't have to seriously change the Finder's appearance. Also, maintaining the Finder in YB would be cheaper than maintaining it in Carbon. > First.. why would they promote this? To placate the small > group of YB developers that exist now? Not likely... Not to placate but to encourage existing YB developers and encourage new YB developers. Given that YB development is cheaper than Carbon development, why wouldn't Apple promote it to those without legacy source bases? Also, they could try to promote YB in the Windows market to encourage more cross-platform applications. > Second.. What would promoting this do for their Mac OS > (Carbon) developers? > > Scare them... not good. They're a skittish creature... It wouldn't do anything for them except open up a possible development avenue for new applications. Also, I don't think that many people are really scared that Carbon will not be supported for, say, the next five years. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@icarus.cc.uic.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 7 Feb 1999 18:39:11 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago Message-ID: <79kmkf$16hq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5.1 (sun4u)) quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: : In article <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com>, : sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: :> If you say so.. however the historical evidence (when YB was :> uttered in the past) proves you wrong.. : Originally, wasn't Amelio trying to replace the traditional Mac OS toolbox : with YellowBox? If that was the case then, of course, most toolbox developers : would be upset. Now that Carbon is going to be supported as far as the eye : can see, why would Toolbox developers care if YellowBox was promoted? It's : just another technology (like OpenDoc or GX) that they can watch and evaluate : over time. Because Carbon is still a risk to begin with. I sure there are a lot of people who are skeptical that Carbon will work, and maybe if they start promoting YellowBox people might think something is wrong in Carbon land. : -- : Brian Quinlan : quinlan@intergate.bc.ca : -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- : http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:54:29 -0500 Organization: Interpath Communications, Inc. Message-ID: <070219991454294776%phenix@interpath.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/4.1.0 Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > On 02/06/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > > > >> Given the Mac OS Developer temprament... it does.. > >> > >> They have to deliver Carbon to placate these folks before > >> they could dare mention YB in this manner again.. > > > >Why? I don't think that many Carbon developers are scared that > >Carbon is going away. For Apple to pull Carbon support less than a > >year away from the release of Mac OS X would be the stupidest (or at > >least in the top 5) of the many stupid moves Apple has made in the > >past. > > > > Funny you'd say that considering thta Apple hasn't delivered > _any_ Carbon-able OS yet.. not even as a beta. :-) > > I'm not suggesting that they should pull it.. but until they > actually deliver it to them, they have it in their hands... they're > not gonna believe it.. Most aren't going to believe it until it is in their /customers/ hands. And why should they? -snip- > Second.. What would promoting this do for their Mac OS > (Carbon) developers? > > Scare them... not good. They're a skittish creature... I don't know if it would scare them -- but it certainly wouldn't reassure them any. I'd certainly like to seem them pushing YB and carbon more -- the problem is that because of their track record pushing one seems like a potential abandonment of the other. There's little that they can do to change this perception before it's ready for the customers hand. About the only thing I can think of that might do it is to scrape up a couple hundred million and put it into a trust to be paid out to developers if they pull support for either before a particular date (some years in the future, Carbon support probably isn't infinite, nor should it have to be, but it ought to last at least 3 or 4 years after the release of MacOSX). -- John Moreno
From: pete@ohm.york.ac.uk (-bat.) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 7 Feb 1999 20:14:13 GMT Organization: The University of York, UK Sender: pcf1@york.ac.uk Message-ID: <79ks6l$mk3$1@pump1.york.ac.uk> References: <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Feb 1999 20:14:13 GMT Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> writes: > You asked for a lineup and I gave it to you. I didn't write it for my > own health. You could have at least gone to the Web page I provided. But it's hardly a replacement - for the simple reason that since Apple killed Intel Rhapsodyyou can buy all the PC hardware you like and it's still only good as a door stop as a replacement for a NextStation. People buy hardware in order to run software [I hope!] so sadly your PC may have wonderful hardware, but fails at the first hurdle. Oh dear, still, nice try... -bat.
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:02:55 +0100 Organization: nonewhatsoever Message-ID: <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > On 23 Jan 1999 21:54:28 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> > wrote: > > >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > > > >> Alas, this is the same company that made THE F***** BIGGEST MISTAKE in > >> software history--not licensing the MacOS a la Microsoft. So while we > >> could all enter the next century running a home area network > >> "amazingly great" GUI on an "best of breed" Unix OS on our StrongARM > >> based home server for about $500 bucks, it appears as though we'll be > >> pretty much where we are now only with possibily two M$'s (OS and > >> apps). > > > >I oughta mention here that the StrongARM has no floating point processor, > >no superscalar mechanism, and relatively unsophisticated pipelining. > > Oh. I'm no hardware wonk, so I ask "Would that preclude using a > Linux-on-StrongARM (a la SideWinder) as a home server?) Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? Lars T.
From: XSPAM@static.com (prop) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: letter to Apple RE: OS X Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 16:48:20 -0400 Organization: staticness Message-ID: <XSPAM-0702991648210001@10.10.10.11> Here is a letter I wrote to apple, I figured I would post it here for good measure. I'm sick of having to use Winders for ALL my portable needsfor the sake of a few win95/NT apps that I need to use. To whom it may concern at Apple, I have been using a Mac for many years. At work I am forced to use an Intel laptop running an inferior operating system. I have no chance to get a powerbook for my next laptop, besides that I do not like the touch pad, I need to run software from time to time that only runs on win95/NT. I would be in a position to convert my office to a mac based network if I could run OS X on the Intel platform. I used the NeXT OS on Intel in a previous job and it is probably the most bulletproof and refined OS that I have seen to date. Apple needs to release a Bulletproof operating system for Apple hardware as well as Intel. The current Mac OS, while quite beautiful, is far from stable. I fear for the Mac's well being. I design and troubleshoot large corporate networks and I am in a position to influence the way computer people view Macintosh. Right now it isnđt pretty, a standing joke in every Cisco training class I have been to is about AppleTalk, the imac is viewed as nothing more than a toy. It is time the world found out what a superior OS looks like, the only way to do this effectively is to release it for Intel. I have always believed that Apple has superior hardware and I would buy an Apple computer over an Intel based machine any day. Most people do not have that choice, they are handed a machine or they are suckered into buying a Windows based machine by someone who knows nothing about the Mac OS. Making a Macintosh look more like Winders is sacrilege, i.e. arrow next to a shortcut, and other windows lookalikes(think Net neighbors) and does not show any innovation on Apples part. Show us the innovation Apple was once famous for. This is the reason you have die hard users. I exist in a Windows world and I use a Mac, I get by because it is a Mac, no other OS can do this in a mixed environment so gracefully. Thank you for your time, John M Dunay 00000000000000000000000000000000000000 dunay http://www.servtech.com/public/dunay
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 7 Feb 1999 22:27:11 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <79ks6l$mk3$1@pump1.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <19990207172711.23949.00001382@ng-ch1.aol.com> Pete said: >But it's hardly a replacement - for the simple reason that since Apple >killed Intel Rhapsodyyou can buy all the PC hardware you like and it's >still only good as a door stop as a replacement for a NextStation. > >People buy hardware in order to run software [I hope!] so sadly your >PC may have wonderful hardware, but fails at the first hurdle. I at once agree and disagree. Apparently, it's still possible to to purchase OpenStep from Apple, and I find the available range of software quite good. Secondly, GNUstep is progressing quite nicely, and it seems that one could assemble a very useful suite of tools with it now (with assorted other Linux/GNU tools, i.e. LyX, GIMP, etc.). At least such a setup wouldn't likely crash several times a day as my PowerMac at work (running 8.1 now, will try 8.5 this month, but doubtful to ever run Mac OS X due to the expense) does. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:20:48 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <36BE57FE.403B43F8@tca.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <F6LL4A.9CM@RnA.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerben Wierda wrote: > In <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Abraham Guyt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Apple posted the new MacOS X Server faq at: > > > > http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html > > > > From this document it seems that the future of Yellow Box seems OK and far > > from dead ! > > Except for Objective-C and some support for Intel hardware, it seems. "For developers interested in the Mac OS X operating system foundation, Mac OS X Server will provide an early look at the future. The BSD and Yellow Box technologies in Mac OS X Server will be available in Mac OS X as well." Doesn't look dead to me. > > > -- > Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) > "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" > Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. > > "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:19:39 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <36BE57B9.64080008@tca.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "For developers interested in the Mac OS X operating system foundation, Mac OS X Server will provide an early look at the future. The BSD and Yellow Box technologies in Mac OS X Server will be available in Mac OS X as well." You hear that "the future" yippee!!!!!!!!!!!!! Abraham Guyt wrote: > Hi all, > > Apple posted the new MacOS X Server faq at: > > http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html > > From this document it seems that the future of Yellow Box seems OK and far > from dead ! > > Regards, > Abraham.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:56:19 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79l5mf$m3l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79kmkf$16hq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> In article <79kmkf$16hq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote: > Because Carbon is still a risk to begin with. I sure there are a lot > of people who are skeptical that Carbon will work, and maybe if they > start promoting YellowBox people might think something is wrong > in Carbon land. I don't think that Carbon is much of a risk. There is something seriously wrong at Apple if they can't make it work. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B. Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> Message-ID: <slrn7bsmg1.qff.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 03:56:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:56:05 CDT On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:02:55 +0100, Lars Träger <Fam.Traeger@t-online.de> posted: >Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: >> On 23 Jan 1999 21:54:28 GMT, Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> >> wrote: >> >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: >> >> Alas, this is the same company that made THE F***** BIGGEST MISTAKE in >> >> software history--not licensing the MacOS a la Microsoft. So while we >> >> could all enter the next century running a home area network >> >> "amazingly great" GUI on an "best of breed" Unix OS on our StrongARM >> >> based home server for about $500 bucks, it appears as though we'll be >> >> pretty much where we are now only with possibily two M$'s (OS and >> >> apps). >> > >> >I oughta mention here that the StrongARM has no floating point processor, >> >no superscalar mechanism, and relatively unsophisticated pipelining. >> >> Oh. I'm no hardware wonk, so I ask "Would that preclude using a >> Linux-on-StrongARM (a la SideWinder) as a home server?) > >Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? It needs an FPU if you want efficient FP handling. There is some small amount of kernel code that 'wants an FPU,' but which can cope with emulation thereof. The StrongARM is therefore not too well suited to heavy-FP applications, as it won't run them real efficiently. It nonetheless doesn't *absolutely need* a FPU. And as the majority of the programs out there aren't primarily FP-dependent, things don't *forcibly* suffer drastically. If you do a lot of ray tracing, FFTs, or the like, your milage will obviously vary somewhat... -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html> cbbrowne@hex.net - "What have you contributed to Linux today?..."
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 8 Feb 1999 04:34:44 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/07/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com>, > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: <snip> >> But this has been common in the mac past... the APIs may not >> change, but the calls break because you're forced to deal at such a >> low level to do everything.. > >I don't see your point. > You had said.. Apple is hyping Carbon compliance while the ReadMe for the Carbon Dater application states that some portions of the Carbon API are likely to change in the future. My point was that they are used to having to deal with these types of changes.. so they won't be surprised... >[snipped] > >> Why would they announce that they were going to make a new >> Finder... Mac Users LOVE the Finder as is. Why should they be >> concerned what it is written in? They just care that it works like >> they already know. > >Because the Finder isn't nearly as customizable as the Workspace and Apple >seems to love customizability these days. They don't have to seriously change >the Finder's appearance. Also, maintaining the Finder in YB would be cheaper >than maintaining it in Carbon. > Definately... I agree that TECHNICALLY this is the better solution. My point was why would they _announce_ that re-write? What is the benefit to Apple? >> First.. why would they promote this? To placate the small >> group of YB developers that exist now? Not likely... > >Not to placate but to encourage existing YB developers and encourage new YB >developers. Probably so as not to scare the skittish Mac Devs.. as I've said. If Apple can cultivate new YB developers, quietly, just be releasing Mac OS X Server to edu at a reasonable discount.. I think that would be a good start.. > Given that YB development is cheaper than Carbon development, why >wouldn't Apple promote it to those without legacy source bases? Also, they >could try to promote YB in the Windows market to encourage more cross-platform >applications. > I think the intention of Edu discounts is to promote YB and Mac OS X (server now.. X in future) to those without Legacy source bases. I doubt Apple will promote YB for cross-platform until they can provide the free-runtime... (this is not to say that I believe that they will not release YB/NT runtimes till Mac OS X timeframe..) -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Nicholas J. Stacpoole" <nstacpoole@mail.vision.net.au> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:26:09 +1100 Organization: ttp://www.vision.net.au Message-ID: <36BE4B3F.A7C4376B@mail.vision.net.au> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 1999 02:27:34 GMT quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: <snip some stuff> > Because the Finder isn't nearly as customizable as the Workspace and Apple > seems to love customizability these days. They don't have to seriously change > the Finder's appearance. Also, maintaining the Finder in YB would be cheaper > than maintaining it in Carbon. > I still don't understand where you got the idea that the Finder will be based on Carbon code. My understanding is that the Finder in MacOS X Server is a Yellow application (because Carbon didn't exist then) and will also be a Yellow application in MacOS X. Looking at the screen shots posted at Apple's MacOS X Server page the interface seems fairly polished over the developer releases. They have spent alot of effort on this, and while it may still be a work in progress I can't imagine them throwing all of this code away. Also I remeber reading on Stepwise that the initial setup program was a yellow application written in Java. If this is still correct then it shows some commitment to the Yellow frameworks in the OS itself. Any corrections welcome.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 8 Feb 1999 05:15:59 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <79lruf$94o$1@news.panix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <798ac5$a7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <799ji2$8ke@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <79bedp$45m$1@news.panix.com> <01be50d2$11d7eb70$35badccf@samsara> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 1999 05:15:59 GMT On 5 Feb 1999 00:37:19 GMT, Jonathan Hendry <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote: >OS/2 is moribund, and has been for a long time. You can't hardly >blame them for not shipping it. > >They *did* ship the AS/400 version. > Correction: they created a version of Delphi that included client/server support for the AS/400. Since then, they have rolled that support into the main product (IIRC) >> IMnotsoHO, you'll have a lot more luck asking for a Linux version of >> JBuilder since the Jar files it spits out most likely work on Linux >> now anyway, and it would be probably be acceptable to do a Willows >> port of just the IDE and make use of the JVMs that run on Linux now. >Supposedly, they're also working on making Delphi output Java. I've heard this as well. There is a rumor about Delphi5 being able to use JavaBeans as native components.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 8 Feb 1999 05:16:00 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <79lrug$94o$3@news.panix.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net> <79i0q2$949$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 1999 05:16:00 GMT On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:14:32 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >In article <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote: >> I'd rather spend that >> kind of money on an SGI or an Ultra, or a top-end Mac for that matter, but >> that's me. > >And it's ridiculous. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you >could spec out an SGI or an Ultra in that price range. Guess what, Einstein, >I occasionally do that for a living. I can tell you that your SGI or Ultra or Is this an example of you showing "respect for other peoples opinions"? I could have sworn that you only considered only my opinions beneath contempt. I guess this is yet another example of the pattern you've been demonstrationing for years now. Whenever you can no longer maintain a discussion based on facts you turn to name calling.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YB & WO (Re: No Apple "Enterprise") Date: 8 Feb 1999 05:16:00 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <79lruf$94o$2@news.panix.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <78m2fp$e3t@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <jBwr2.62$jP6.545184@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2701990842380001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <GAFr2.5$qN.143630@news.bctel.net> <78o43l$ati$1@news.digifix.com> <36b03ffd.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> <78qpl6$971$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <78rh66$c8c$1@news.xmission.com> <7938t2$1g4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <798ac5$a7d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <799ji2$8ke@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <79bedp$45m$1@news.panix.com> <36B9BBE5.FB1001@ericsson.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 1999 05:16:00 GMT On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:25:25 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >> both companies that are fighting to stay alive and are focusing 100% >> on there core areas to do it. I doubt the'll make any moves into Linux >> any time soon. >I don't know anything about Delbert Yocam, but I do know that your >parallel to Apple is as valid as a similar parallel to Corel. Corel has >seen some success with the port of its WordPerfect 8 product to Linux >(which is a really fantastic port, btw). They have plenty of success _giving_ WordPerfect away for free. How does that help the bottom line? Can you point to any credible sources that would demonstrate that WordPerfect for Linux has helped Corel make money? > You previously mentioned >Willows and Wine, and to extend the logic of my argument, Corel is >already working with the Wine project to contribute code and make use of >the bundle in future porting projects. The point is that it's not only >technically feasible, but there is already a proof-of-concept on the >market. Porting an end user App and a _development_ tool are not the same. The new cross platform Delphi's VCL would have to maintain a large amount of source code compatibility between the X and Win32 versions. If it did not, there would be little advantage to the product in the first place. (Ie, the complaints about the NeXTStep to OpenStep migration problems) Seeing that ICCCM does not do anything to force a standard UI, nor does it do anything to provide support for integration of multiple GUIs; Inprise would have to code into the VCL implicit support for the modern X UIs and do so without either sacrificing compatibility of performance of the WinNT product. Not quite as easy as porting a word processor is it? >> IMnotsoHO, you'll have a lot more luck asking for a Linux version of >> JBuilder since the Jar files it spits out most likely work on Linux >> now anyway, and it would be probably be acceptable to do a Willows >> port of just the IDE and make use of the JVMs that run on Linux now. >Inprise may well see potential in the Linux market that it did not see >in the OS/2 market. That wouldn't surprise you, would it? It isn't a question of potential, it is a question of the costs of perusing that potential market. JBuilder has a lower opportunity costs and might make more sense than a port of Delphi.
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:39:02 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <36BE5C44.B98C6AD4@tca.com> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36B9ACB0.D4E8A4A7@cadence.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-PtYlB87Q61gd@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By the way the HFS+ spesification supports an unlimited # of forkes in one file. Jack Troughton wrote: > On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:20:32, Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote: > > Jack Troughton wrote: > > I know what you mean Jerry; there's nothing like the wps anywhere. > > Really, all you guys running macs, windows, linux, x, etc just don't > > know what you're missing... all those things are good and have their > > place, but there is no desktop to compare to the warp desktop. > > This is interesting. I used OS/2 for a while and I was not *that* > impressed. I scrapped it after I repartitioned my drive and had trouble > with the drive letter change after which I though "duh!" and got rid of it. > > WPS seems nice, but I think I prefer NextStep. What was so special about it > ? > > Well, I've never actually used NextStep, so I can't rally comment; I > hear it's a really nice system though... What I like about the wps is > that the interface is very consistent. Very consistent. Windows is a > hodge-podge of weird and custom methodologies for performing similar > tasks thanks to its badly thought out interface. Also, it's very > powerful and flexible. For example, there's no winzip clone under os2 > because with a couple of program objects and unzip.exe and zip.exe, > you can simply add all the functionality to the popup menu of every > zipfile on your system. You could also select a folder and zip it, if > you wanted to implement that. It's very easy to do; the same could be > done with gzip with no problem, though I haven't actually done that > here. > > Also, the wps and the command line are very well integrated; esp. if > you know anything about rexx. > > > > If the wps got ported to linux, I'd be over there in no time... but I > > think that threading would have to be better implemented on linux > > first. Plus it would need a file system that had resource forking in > > it a la hpfs (and hfs, too... we have it on pc too mac people! Just > > not if you're running windows...). Still, a unix with the wps and > > good management tools would just be out of sight! > > Threading on Linux is fine, it just doesn't get used by many GUI > applications. Most toolkits require that only 1 thread talk to the GUI, > which is sensible enough, but seems to put people off. > > Well, I'm not a programmer, so I can't really comment on that; I'm > largely going by what I've heard some of the warp programmers say > about that in some of the other os2.* fora. > > As to resource forking - having 1 file where 2 will do is not the Unix Way. > More seriously - you can fake it up quite easily using hidden files. > Appletalk file servers for Unix do this. I've never really grasped its > utility. > > The idea is that you can store extra information about the file; in > warp they're called extended attributes. It's what permits the shell > to have many many prioritizable associations wrt data > files/applications. Also, it permits "document-centric" computing. > For example, my newsreader is basically a glorified folder. Each > newsgroup is a glorified folder within the newsreader folder. Each of > those contain data files; the header file and the post file itself are > tied together. It could be nicer; I wouldn't mind the option of > switching the newsreader from its default "details" view to an "tree" > view, but I guess the programmer didn't want to do it that way... > though browsing all groups is done that way; otoh, it's one of the > best newsreader systems I've ever seen wrt interface; it is really > stunning. I was stunned when I first tried it. It's called ProNews, > by Panacea. The only problem is that the programmer has apparently > had a breakdown of some kind, so the program is currently orphaned... > > Anyway, I would think that the way to implement resource forking on > unix would be to have the unix-style attributes (user, group, etc) > with resource forking. By maintaining backwards compatibility you > wouldn't have to worry about messing up existing software, and you > would allow whichever shell you're running locally to keep a lot of > data about the file handy. I would imagine that while it wouldn't be > trivial to do, it shouldn't be spectacularly difficult either. > > The fact that the "shell fanatics" are us warpers, mac users, and now > beos users thanks to the shell enhancements that resource forking > provides and permits might tell you something about it's utility; esp. > wrt document-centric computing. I don't think it's coincidental that > all of these people refuse to give up their boxes thanks to the power > of the shells that are available to them because of just this feature > of their file system... despite the fact that software is nonexistent > for Be, has always been hard to get for Warp, and doesn't perform as > efficiently on MacOS. For one thing, a lot of apps that are standard > in Windows-land are irrelevant to me, because my main shell (as > opposed to my XWindows shell, or my cmdshl, or my tcl/tk shell;), the > wps, contains features that let me implement them easily using > commonly available freeware tools. > > PS. NTFS actaully has a general facility to do multi-streamed files. Its > one of those rarely used features that are in NT but not Win9x > > There but not used, thanks to the platform inconsistencies of windows, > and the need to write to the 9x platform, since it's the one that has > the market. Hell, the main shell in NT (explore.exe) doesn't even use > it; what good is that? It might as well not be there as far as I can > tell, unless maybe you're writing a custom vertical application for > some enterprise foolhardy enough to try to shoehorn NT into > everything. I suspect that a system based on UNIX on the backend and > warp on the frontend would work a lot better and be much cheaper to > run in the long run. For example, do you know what the CID > installation utility is? It allows the deployment of software to > thousands of warp clients simultaneously from one central location. > The time and labour savings are obvious... > > Jack Troughton ICQ:7494149 > http://207.96.209.68:8000/ > jack.troughton at videotron.ca > jaft at adan.kingston.net > Montréal PQ Canada
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: G4 .11 micron Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:21:08 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I distinticly rembember reading somewhere(Popsi?, PM? Sientific american?, Discovery?), that Mot has bought special equiptment allowing them to use .18 micron equiptment for .11 micron gate lengths. They should begin production early this summer.
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:43:27 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <36BE5D4C.A21749AA@tca.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <79d5ir$cot$1@news.erinet.com> <36BA19F6.B85F44AB@klassy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Josiah Fizer wrote: <snip> </snip> > But you would get a mouse. Then you could, like, click on stuff. <snip> </snip> When the Kbord on my mac broke I could still use it. It just took forever to do anything. I thank the almighty for "Key Caps", cut and paste.
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: ø`á.üü.áŦø`á.üü.áŦø` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `á.üü.áŦø`á.üü.áŦø` Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:14:19 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <36BE6488.FBE37164@tca.com> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <78nukm$d30$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edward P Scholl wrote: > > > uhhh, it really isn't >> greater (at least i've never used the '>>' sign > used to denote something as small as a 1000 times diff, but i'm used to > comparing fun stuff like Reynold's numbers and such). > > -ed Reynold's numbers? please email me the reply.
From: Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: No Apple "Enterprise" Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:32:01 -0600 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <36BE68AE.20ACEACA@tca.com> References: <QAgr2.5$jP6.39946@news.bctel.net> <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu> <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> <78lbte$h44$6@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did you notice that they are now back in after Apple showed IBM some bench marks. Can't find the URL. spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > In <vQnr2.19$jP6.254223@news.bctel.net> Henry wrote: > > In article <pxpst2-2601990926350001@pelli.pathology.pitt.edu>, pxpst2@unixs.cis.pitt.edu (Peter) > wrote: > > > > Oh one last note. Did anyone notice that IBM has pulled out of G4 development > > http://macweek.zdnet.com/1223/nw_somerset.html > > Here is a interesting quote: > > "There was no synergy between the processors IBM wanted to build and what Apple will need," said an > industry insider. "AltiVec is important to a multimedia desktop machine, but it's irrelevant to a > multiprocessing server." > > Now I have to look around and see if I can find any solid info on MacOS X will be running > on IBM machines.. Or maybe Apple will try to use IBM cpus in high end and Motorola in > low end.. > > And I thought Jobs pissed off the CEO of Motorola a while back by saying Apple didn't > need Motorola for PPC?!! > > Randy Rencsok > rencsok or spammers at > ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com > > http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) Subject: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Message-ID: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 05:54:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:54:42 CDT Does AppleScript have any relationship to any standard scripting language like ECMAScript (JavaScript)? Ron
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 8 Feb 1999 06:05:54 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <79lus2$p6r$1@hecate.umd.edu> References: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> Jorge Landivar (landivar@tca.com) wrote: : I distinticly rembember reading somewhere(Popsi?, PM? Sientific : american?, Discovery?), : that Mot has bought special equiptment allowing them to use .18 micron : equiptment for .11 micron gate lengths. : They should begin production early this summer. 0.18um is the drawn length of the gate. 0.11um is the effective channel length. That doesn't make it a 0.11um process. That makes it a 0.18um process with a 0.11um effective channel length. MPR used to use Effective channel length as a predictor of process speed. They are now developing a new metric, as the junction capacitance now predominate, and effective channel lengths no longer become an accurate predictor of process performance. As to phase shift masks, I haven't been keeping track of their development, but it was just my impression that everyone will adopt it, to further prolong the use of optical litho for just a bit longer. (regular mask either block light or allow light to shine through the mask onto photosensitive resist. as the width of each slit approaches 0.1um, the wavelength of light, the finite limit of the width you can generate is approached. Phase shift masks uses special masks with differing opaqueness?/transparency? to generate devices with feature sizes otherwise not allowable by normal optical lithography techniques. I had read about the technique about two years ago, and I thought that it was kind of cool then, still think that it is kind of cool now. ) PSM's are a bit more difficult to deal with, but everything new is. -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: Brandon Forehand <CBrandonF@mail.utexas.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: =?x-user-defined?Q?=F8=60=E1=2E=FC=FC=2E=E1=AB=F8=60=E1=2E=FC=FC=2E=E1=AB=F8=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=E1=2E=FC=FC=2E=E1=AB=F8=60=E1=2E=FC=FC=2E=E1=AB=F8=60?= Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 00:13:51 -0600 Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Message-ID: <36BE809F.1FF2CE53@mail.utexas.edu> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <78im9m$pih$0@208.231.49.89> <clund-2501992233420001@ppp112.uio.no> <78j3li$nlm$0@208.231.49.63> <clund-2601991828010001@ppp026.uio.no> <78nukm$d30$1@hercules.acsu.buffalo.edu> <36BE6488.FBE37164@tca.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorge Landivar wrote: > > Edward P Scholl wrote: > > uhhh, it really isn't >> greater (at least i've never used the '>>' sign > > used to denote something as small as a 1000 times diff, but i'm used to > > comparing fun stuff like Reynold's numbers and such). > Reynold's numbers? Reynold's number - n. Physics. A dimensionless number characterizing the type of flow in a fluid, used especially in the study of the effects of viscosity and velocity control in fluid systems. [After Osborne Reynolds (1842-1912), British physicist.] In the Computer Science world, we use >> to denote powers of magnitude in growth complexity of algorithms. For instance, n^2 >> n >> log n. Of course, this is all meaningless unless you understand such things as Big-O notation. > please email me the reply. As for emailing, we read the newsgroup, why can't you?
From: Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:32:17 GMT Organization: R&A Message-ID: <F6qr9u.GpA@RnA.nl> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 1999 06:28:58 GMT Cc: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl In <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Abraham Guyt wrote: > Hi all, > > Apple posted the new MacOS X Server faq at: > > http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html I wonder why they call it a FAQ. *Very* frequently asked questions (like YB/NT) aren't answered. ;-) -- Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl (Gerben Wierda) "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there" Paraphrased in Alice in Wonderland, originally from the Talmud. "Your io is pretty std" -- Larry Wall
From: zuma@netcom.com (tony austin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: letter to Apple RE: OS X Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:00:58 -0800 Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <zuma-0702992200590001@lai-ca3-168.ix.netcom.com> References: <XSPAM-0702991648210001@10.10.10.11> In article <XSPAM-0702991648210001@10.10.10.11>, XSPAM@static.com (prop) wrote: > [...] > It is time the world found out what a superior OS looks like, the only way > to do this effectively is to release it for Intel. > [...] IMHO: APPLE needs Microsofts support! There will not be a port or an even an announcement of a possible port till after the DOJ-Microsoft trial has reached some sort of closure. APPLE is a hardware company worth $5 billion and Microsoft is a software company worth $450 billion. Look what almost happened to APPLE over QuickTime? Tony
From: stone@stoneentertainment.com (Kevin Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 00:00:31 -0700 Organization: Stone Entertainment Message-ID: <stone-0802990000320001@rc-pm3-2-28.enetis.net> References: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> In article <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com>, landivar2@geocities.com wrote: > I distinticly rembember reading somewhere(Popsi?, PM? Sientific > american?, Discovery?), > that Mot has bought special equiptment allowing them to use .18 micron > equiptment for .11 micron gate lengths. > They should begin production early this summer. .11um? I believe the G4 was to begin production at .22um. However in the unlikly chance that this is true, and Motorola will be at .11 microns before the rest of the industry even reaches .18, that would represent an increadiable advantage for PowerPC. Of course if Motorola can buy this special equipment, so can Intel, AMD, and IBM. -Kevin Stone "To err is human. You need a computer to really fuc& thinks up." - Cyber City Oedo
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: letter to Apple RE: OS X Date: 8 Feb 1999 06:37:58 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79m0o6$dfr$1@news.digifix.com> References: <XSPAM-0702991648210001@10.10.10.11> <zuma-0702992200590001@lai-ca3-168.ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <zuma-0702992200590001@lai-ca3-168.ix.netcom.com> On 02/07/99, tony austin wrote: >In article <XSPAM-0702991648210001@10.10.10.11>, XSPAM@static.com (prop) wrote: > > >> [...] >> It is time the world found out what a superior OS looks like, the only way >> to do this effectively is to release it for Intel. >> [...] > > > IMHO: APPLE needs Microsofts support! There will not be a port or > an even an announcement of a possible port till after the > DOJ-Microsoft trial has reached some sort of closure. > How do you suppose releasing an Intel OS is going to garner them Microsoft support? Its more likely its being held back until after the trial to see if it can't cause more damage to Microsoft (i.e. there is no competition) Incidently.. there is ALREADY a port.. and it was already announced.. and now withdrawn.. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:32:57 GMT Organization: MSI Networks, Inc. (using Airnews.net!) Message-ID: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> Abuse-Reports-To: Report improper postings to abuse at msinets dot com NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3 NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Feb 8 01:18:23 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, as you may know, IBM as of March 1st is going to be supporting Linux in a "company wide" effort. I've heard all kinda crap about how the upperlayers of OS/2 couldn't be ported to Linux for this or that reason. What I want is specific and definitive legal/tech reasons why, if IBM decided to do it, they couldn't open source/port WPS (as OS/2's GUI is called, as I recall) to Linux. Could M$ prevent IBM from doing it? How hard would it be for IBM to reverse engineer those bits that M$ may control so it could port WPS to Linux? All of that is quickly not simply a "much rehashed" topic anymore, it's becoming real. And I wanna know how hard it would be for it to happen. If IBM can't help, we're going to have to wait for someone (Sun, 3com, VAResearch?) to buy Apple and port the upper levels of OSX to Linux (which could be several years down the road.) -l --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Message-ID: <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:04:09 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:04:12 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:32:57 GMT, Nelson Gerhardt added this to Deja News: >Ok, as you may know, IBM as of March 1st is going to be supporting >Linux in a "company wide" effort. I've heard all kinda crap about how >the upperlayers of OS/2 couldn't be ported to Linux for this or that >reason. > >What I want is specific and definitive legal/tech reasons why, if IBM >decided to do it, they couldn't open source/port WPS (as OS/2's GUI is >called, as I recall) to Linux. Could M$ prevent IBM from doing it? How >hard would it be for IBM to reverse engineer those bits that M$ may >control so it could port WPS to Linux? No-one has ever demonstrated a reason why doing this would benefit IBM financially. Until that hurdle is crossed, no other aspect of it matters. IBM top management is focused on profits. There is probably no technical reason why it couldn't be done, "if they decided to do it". The situation is that there is no compelling reason FOR them to decide to do it. >All of that is quickly not simply a "much rehashed" topic anymore, >it's becoming real. And I wanna know how hard it would be for it to >happen. > >If IBM can't help, we're going to have to wait for someone (Sun, 3com, >VAResearch?) to buy Apple and port the upper levels of OSX to Linux >(which could be several years down the road.) Seems like you brought this possibility up before. The idea of someone spending billions of dollars to purchase Apple simply to take their software and GIVE it to the Linux movement is ludicrous. Corporate philanthropy doesn't go that far. -------- Steven C. Den Beste sdenbes1@san.rr.com "If you can't hold back the tide, it's better to surf than to drown."
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:29:31 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79m3ol$cvn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lu0n$92c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79lu0n$92c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > However a carbon finder would run on both OS X and OS 8.x / 9. This would ease > the transition - it would make the change to OS X virtually invisible. > > Since the UI is no longer going to be cross platform, from the POV of Mac > users a carbon finder that is the same exact app as the one run on the > current Mac OS might be a good thing. I'm not sure what you mean here. From the user's point of view, the only difference between a YellowBox and a Carbon finder is that a YellowBox finder should have some of the nicer behaviours common to YB applications (such as windows that can still be moved even when the application is busy). The appearance could be identical. > Is it possible that the carbon finder is required in order for a transparent > blue box to play happily with carbon and yellow apps? It is possible but I don't see why. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:36:23 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79ooho$ijt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lu0n$92c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79m3ol$cvn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79od26$9l8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79od26$9l8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Simply that there might be some short term savings and ease of transition by > having the initial OS X interface being a carbon app so the very same finder > app would run on both OS X and OS 8.x systems. This is possible if Apple is planning on releasing new versions of the Mac OS, without YellowBox support, with significant finder changes, after Mac OS X is released. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own uss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:50:20 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79opbq$j4d$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net> <79i3d0$b93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <trev-0802991057100001@nas-p20.usc.net> In article <trev-0802991057100001@nas-p20.usc.net>, trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) wrote: > Yes it did. The system in question was spec'ed out in response to someone > who described his brand new $7500 G3 Mac system with scanner, 21" monitor, > and printer. OK. > In reality, the dual-Xeon turned out to be about $10 more expensive > without factoring in the cost of adding Firewire and the alternative video > card, if necessary. Granted, you get two mouth-breathing CPUs, but you > need them because, as everybody knows, the G3 is up to twice as fast as a > single one. :-) The PC was in a server enclosure and had two processors. We should have compared the G3 to a single PII-450 system in a standard case. Changing the video card to a Fury (which has a faster bus and twice as much memory as the card in the G3) would probably cost about $50. Firewire costs about $200. And I disagree with the G3 being up to twice as fast, I'm sure that you could devise a test in which it is faster than that :-) -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:45:22 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > You had said.. > > Apple is hyping Carbon compliance while the ReadMe for the > Carbon Dater application states that some portions of the > Carbon API are likely to change in the future. > > My point was that they are used to having to deal with these > types of changes.. so they won't be surprised... But YellowBox developers will be suprised when small details of the YellowBox framework are changed? I'm still not sure that I see your point... > Definately... I agree that TECHNICALLY this is the better > solution. > > My point was why would they _announce_ that re-write? What is > the benefit to Apple? I guess our difference in opinion lies in that I can see a benefit for Apple in promoting YellowBox. > Probably so as not to scare the skittish Mac Devs.. as I've > said. And I've said why I disagree with the notion that Mac developers are skittish in this respect. > If Apple can cultivate new YB developers, quietly, just be > releasing Mac OS X Server to edu at a reasonable discount.. I think > that would be a good start.. I don't think that most existing YellowBox developers are entitled to edu discounts. > I doubt Apple will promote YB for cross-platform until they > can provide the free-runtime... (this is not to say that I believe > that they will not release YB/NT runtimes till Mac OS X timeframe..) This is possible. Of course, Apple should be able to offer a free runtime by the time OS X is released. The new imaging model will get rid of the Adobe licenses. They can get rid of the pantone stuff if the need too. What else do they need licenses for? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36C028A5.E01460BF@frostbytes.com> From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:23:01 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:20:53 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne > Now I happen to agree with you completely on this, so I was wondering, what > reason would IBM have in supporting Linux? (Which is free.) > > My anwser to my own question would be that they A) don't have to do squat to > "support" it. (Just stand at the sidelines and cheer) B) they'll get all the > Linux people to like them and C) they don't have to divulge any secrets, yadda > yadda yadda. IBM really hates being at Microsoft's mercy. With a 3rd-party controlling the software they lose a big part of their advantage over the competition, plus it costs them a good chunk of change with every system they ship. Linux is the only near-term competitor to NT, and the only thing to come along in a long time that has any hope of getting supported by other vendors -- something which *must* happen to break Microsoft's market lock. If the hardware vendors can break Microsoft's lock on the market then they can compete much more openly. IBM in particular probably believes they have better hardware and support teams than most of their competitors (which would be quite true in most cases and debatable in *all* cases). jim
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,alt.comp.lang.applescript Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:45:29 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Message-ID: <1dmwkkx.ma1i5z1h35fxqN@roxboro0-021.dyn.interpath.net> References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Ron Peterson <rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com> wrote: (crossposted to alt.comp.lang.applescript) > Does AppleScript have any relationship to any standard > scripting language like ECMAScript (JavaScript)? No it doesn't (and particularly in the case of JavaScript, you have the question backwards since AS predates JS by a bit). -- John Moreno
Message-ID: <36C03EB3.575404B2@frostbytes.com> From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <voVv2.10$hW.87966@news.bctel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:57:07 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:55:01 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne > The WPS came from another IBM application front end for Office Vision. > Office Vision was light years ahead of everything else in the > industry. However like many things it was over sized, and bloated, > and finally was dropped. OfficeVision was a case study in how not to run a software project. (So was OS/2 PPC for that matter -- same basic problems.) Good ideas, absolutely *horrible* management. > In my > opinion, letting OS/2 2.0 go without the shell to begin with, would > have rocketed OS/2 to the number one position, as Microsoft had yet to > deliver Windows 3.0. You're mistaken. OS/2 could never have achieved the success of Windows without Microsoft support for the simple reason that none of IBM's competitors would have preloaded it. IBM could push it all they wanted but with less than 20% market share they could not have forged a standard. > It does make me wonder why Microsoft could > release such a crappy interface, when they had the code of the WPS to > start from. If they'd used that code they would have had to pay IBM for each copy shipped. > The real problem with making the WPS available for Linux or FreeBSD, > is that it relies heavily on the SOM and DSOM model that IBM created. This is not a big problem, as SOM and DSOM are already available on several UNIX variants; they'd just have to let those go too. The real problem is that they don't care if these things live or die. > Linux and FreeBSD programmers are usually ex Windows programmers (at > least when it comes to the GUI interface such as KDE and Gnome. This > is why these interfaces are kinda corny and simplistic when compared > to the WPS. I think you are mistaken. Most of those programmers have a UNIX heritage (which explains quite well why those interfaces are simplistic as well as why they're so pro-Linux). > :>>If IBM can't help, we're going to have to wait for someone (Sun, 3com, > :>>VAResearch?) to buy Apple and port the upper levels of OSX to Linux > :>>(which could be several years down the road.) > > It is possible that IBM could run again with OS/2, but I fear IBM has > caved in to Microsoft and will not persue OS/2 any further than they > have to. It is a shame as they couda.... shoulda.... didn't!! IBM actively deemphasized OS/2 when they dismantled the group (er, sorry, "merged" it). It's as good as dead in the long term. It is wrong, however, to suggest that they have caved in to Microsoft; their support of Java, Apache, and Linux illustrates that they're willing to work with others to tame them. jim
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:57:09 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-0802991057100001@nas-p20.usc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net> <79i3d0$b93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79i3d0$b93$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > graphics boards, etc. Or you would buy some expensive peripherals. The > original poster included a printer, a scanner and 21-inche monitor in his > price. AFAIK, the Mac didn't have any of those things. Yes it did. The system in question was spec'ed out in response to someone who described his brand new $7500 G3 Mac system with scanner, 21" monitor, and printer. > > I'd rather spend that > > kind of money on an SGI or an Ultra, or a top-end Mac for that matter, but > > that's me. > > Same here but I think that the point of this discussion was that Mac hardware > is still more expensive than equivalent PC hardware. It also annoys me how In reality, the dual-Xeon turned out to be about $10 more expensive without factoring in the cost of adding Firewire and the alternative video card, if necessary. Granted, you get two mouth-breathing CPUs, but you need them because, as everybody knows, the G3 is up to twice as fast as a single one. :-) Trev
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <SCOTT.99Feb5121236@slave.doubleu.com> From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> Date: 08 Feb 1999 09:39:42 -0800 Message-ID: <yl3vhhcpzfl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) writes: > In article <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com>, > Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> writes: > I'm sorry but so far I'm hearing that MS gets to prepare the > machines install the software etc etc. Even without the government > being present. Why are they so niave to believe that Microsoft > hasn't hacked the installed OS to suit their claims? > <...> > Why aren't they doing this test properly? Why isn't the judge > providing the release of 98 that should be installed on the > machines and verifying that it has been done so and why is the > government no allowed in the room _until_ the test is about to > begin? > > You're thinking in scientist/engineer terms. But, if the judge were > an engineer, when Microsoft suggested that removing IE from Windows98 > would slow things down, he'd have given them an immediate billion > dollar fine for pulling his chain without a reason. Yes, I find it strange that if you remove something that has a dependency that the only effect is a "slow down" rather than something not working at all. > -- > scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ > <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots > Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:51:20 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-0802991051200001@nas-p20.usc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8782.DC38E47B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502992335530001@nas-p9.usc.net> <79i0q2$949$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79i0q2$949$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: > > Thanks, though, for demonstrating that you can spend $7500-$8000 for a > > dual-Xeon box. I bet not many people knew that. > > Well, you didn't. That's why you asked to see what one could buy for $7,500. Why do you assume I don't know what $7500 can buy in the Wintel world just because I asked for specifics? > > I'd rather spend that > > kind of money on an SGI or an Ultra, or a top-end Mac for that matter, but > > that's me. > > And it's ridiculous. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you > could spec out an SGI or an Ultra in that price range. Guess what, Einstein, Why is it ridiculous to suggest that $7500 would be better spent on Sun, SGI or Apple equipment if that's your preference? Trev
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: 8 Feb 1999 17:56:32 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <79n8gg$n6q$1@remarQ.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> In article <36c50a45.2302011@news-server>, Steven C. Den Beste <sdenbes1@san.rr.com> wrote: >>What I want is specific and definitive legal/tech reasons why, if IBM >>decided to do it, they couldn't open source/port WPS (as OS/2's GUI is >>called, as I recall) to Linux. Could M$ prevent IBM from doing it? How >>hard would it be for IBM to reverse engineer those bits that M$ may >>control so it could port WPS to Linux? > >No-one has ever demonstrated a reason why doing this would benefit IBM >financially. Until that hurdle is crossed, no other aspect of it matters. As it stands now, MS has the desktop OS market locked up, and is attempting to extend their OS franchise to the upper end. This is, of course, a license for them to print money, and places all other companies at an extreme disadvantage. IBM would love to have a countervailing OS of their own so they could print money, too. If they can't have that, they could be interested in having a competing, open OS thaqt they could have at least SOME influence over. It would be both a defensive move, and an attempt to gain a measure of influence over the future of OSes. The dynamics of major corporations entering the OSS market could be rather interesting. -- Don McGregor | "You really do watch The Learning Channel." mcgredo@mbay.net | --Mulder to Sculley
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Date: 9 Feb 1999 15:04:06 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <79pip6$n7o$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) wrote: >Does AppleScript have any relationship to any standard scripting >language like ECMAScript (JavaScript)? > Hm, I don't know whether the standard is OSAX or differently named, but one prominent other language implementation to control applications is "Rexx". I thought I remember that AppleScript and Rexx both have the same roots in some kind of "standard". Greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <01be50d6$d33371a0$35badccf@samsara> <36c0536c.74018382@news.bctel.ca> <yl3n22t5zva.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> Date: 08 Feb 1999 09:37:44 -0800 Message-ID: <yl3yam8pziv.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> writes: > I've read the following facts .. > > One MS prepares the machines and the DOJ folks are present _until_ they > are "ready" > That should have been "aren't present"
Message-ID: <36C03F22.A4047973@frostbytes.com> From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <voVv2.10$hW.87966@news.bctel.net> <slrn7c0cjv.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:58:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:56:48 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne > Could you have > imagined any open source OS officially running on IBM hardware two years > ago? Yes, I could. The day they started using UNIX instead of stuff developed internally they changed the culture a great deal -- and that happened back in the 80s. jim
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:05:52 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0902990905530001@wil99.dol.net> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C028A5.E01460BF@frostbytes.com> In article <36C028A5.E01460BF@frostbytes.com>, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote: > > Now I happen to agree with you completely on this, so I was wondering, what > > reason would IBM have in supporting Linux? (Which is free.) > > > > My anwser to my own question would be that they A) don't have to do squat to > > "support" it. (Just stand at the sidelines and cheer) B) they'll get all the > > Linux people to like them and C) they don't have to divulge any secrets, yadda > > yadda yadda. > > IBM really hates being at Microsoft's mercy. With a 3rd-party controlling the > software they lose a big part of their advantage over the competition, plus it > costs them a good chunk of change with every system they ship. And it's their own stupid fault. OS/2 could have had a place in the computing world today if IBM had marketed it halfway competently. > > Linux is the only near-term competitor to NT, and the only thing to come along > in a long time that has any hope of getting supported by other vendors -- > something which *must* happen to break Microsoft's market lock. Actually, a more likely competitor is Mac OS. IBM could be doing several things: 1. Lower the price of PPC chips to help Apple push more out the door. 2. Buy Macs in their own company rather than Wintel clones. 3. Back when license were available, IBM should have been first in line to sell Mac clones. Even today, IBM should offer Apple a hefty license fee to put Mac OS X Server on AS/400 type machines. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:02:51 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> In article <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net>, Y'all have to fix this@nowhere wrote: > On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:48:56 GMT, hunters@thunder.indstate.edu <hunters@thunder > .indstate.edu> wrote: > >In article <36c50a45.2302011@news-server>, > > sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote: > > > >> No-one has ever demonstrated a reason why doing this would benefit IBM > >> financially. Until that hurdle is crossed, no other aspect of it matters. > >> > >> IBM top management is focused on profits. > > > >Now I happen to agree with you completely on this, so I was wondering, what > >reason would IBM have in supporting Linux? (Which is free.) > > > >My anwser to my own question would be that they A) don't have to do squat to > >"support" it. (Just stand at the sidelines and cheer) B) they'll get all the > >Linux people to like them and C) they don't have to divulge any secrets, yadda > >yadda yadda. > > > >I'd like to see some other thoughts... > > There is an interesting thread going on at slashdot about this very topic. > There's at least one poster there, who claims to be an IBM employee, > stating that Linux has and is being widely used internally at parts of > IBM, and that much of IBM's announced support is really little more than > coming out of the closet, so to speak. It's also a clever and low cost way > to put pressure on MS, at a point when they are clearly on the defensive > with regards to their marketing practices. It has *already* bought IBM > immense goodwill in the Linux community. Absurd. No, it's not absurd that IBM might do this. It's the idea that IBM might market something properly that's absurd. IBM could have changed the entire computer world if they had just hired an even half-way competent marketingdroid to push OS2 several years ago. It's a little late now. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Message-ID: <tbrown-0902990920290001@da215.ecr.net> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BE4B3F.A7C4376B@mail.vision.net.au> <79ooln$iki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: Brownian Motion Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:20:25 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:21:08 CDT In article <79ooln$iki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >I thought that they had said this in some sort of interview but I can't find a >reference so I might be mistaken. Also, the Finder in Mac OS X Server is, of >course, written in YB because Carbon is not available. I was paying attention to this issue, watching the quotes that came out of Apple. I too remember reading a quote that OS X Finder is a Carbonized Finder. I looked briefly for the quote, but didn't find it. -- tbrown@netset.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6w83n.M1M@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net Organization: needs one References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> <36BF5FA9.35B90A7@tca.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802991513380001@term6-22.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:23:45 GMT In <SPAMLESSforrest-0802991513380001@term6-22.vta.west.net> Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > This thread made me think of something; is there a JavaScript OSAX? > (For those who don't know, AppleScript is just the default language of > Apple's "Open Scripting Architecture", and others, like Frontier and, I > think, Perl, have been written into OSA eXtensions, or "OSAX"s). I don't > know what any benefits or downfalls of this would be, but it's just a > curiosity. I may be wrong on this, but I believe that WO4 includes JS, and uses OSA to hook it in. Maury
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why PDF for MacOS X's file format? Date: 9 Feb 1999 15:27:29 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <79pk51$nho$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <B2DF4D59-4DC26@206.165.43.57> <19990204204640.00364.00001408@ng-ch1.aol.com> <36BB2A6E.4E9D67A4@ncal.verio.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> wrote: >industry customers. One big motivation for the graphics work being >done for Mac OS X is to enable prepress and publishing developers and >their customers to do what they do better, faster, and smarter. > >Oh, and PDF is A file format supported in Mac OS X, not THE format. >Big difference... > Mike, I love you ! Bernhard (now hoping again for a bright bright future) -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: sean@forget.about.it (Seán Ó Donnchadha) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:13:28 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Message-ID: <36c135b0.344092398@enews.newsguy.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <SCOTT.99Feb5121236@slave.doubleu.com> <yl3vhhcpzfl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote: >> >> You're thinking in scientist/engineer terms. But, if the judge were >> an engineer, when Microsoft suggested that removing IE from Windows98 >> would slow things down, he'd have given them an immediate billion >> dollar fine for pulling his chain without a reason. > >Yes, I find it strange that if you remove something that has a dependency >that the only effect is a "slow down" rather than something not working >at all. > Unusual, yes, but not beyond explanation. With IE installed as the desktop shell, opening a new browser window is practically instantaneous - it amounts to creating a new thread within the shell process and popping up a new window. With IE installed as a separate application (i.e., with Windows running some other shell), opening a browser window requires the creation of a new IE process, which is much slower.
From: cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B. Browne) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79n8gg$n6q$1@remarQ.com> <36c6b2e1.2832278@news-server> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802992059160001@term6-18.vta.west.net> Message-ID: <slrn7bvhjc.8v7.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:24:06 CDT Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:24:06 GMT On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:59:07 -0800, Forrest Cameranesi <SPAMLESSforrest@west.net> posted: >In article <36c6b2e1.2832278@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. >Den Beste) wrote: > >>No matter how you stack it up, it still comes down to the bottom line. It >>would be very expensive for them to do what was proposed; how do they get >>that money back (plus some profit, plus enough extra to pay all the taxes) >>from users of a public domain, open source OS? > >Open source != free of charge. Anyone could sell an OSS product for money, >and simply preclude the users in the licence from copying it other than >for personal use, just like shrinkwrap software. My personal, ideal >licencing agreement is that whatever percent of the code of product-X you >use, you pay that amount per copy to the original manufacturer. So, say >MyCorp makes and sells MyThing for $100 a pop, and then TheirCorp takes >half the code of MyThing, rewrites the other half in more efficient code, >and then sells it as TheirThing. TheirCorp would have to pay MyCorp $50 >for every copy of TheirThing sold, and the rest of whatever they charge >for TheirThing (say, $125) would be profit. MyCorp could then base the >next version of MyThing off of TheirThing, so they would be paying >TheirCorp royalties for the new code they use in there, and so on and so >on. Corps still make money off of their own innovation, but it allows >others to build off of that innovation and make *new* innovations, which >the original corp can then utilize, and so on, and everyone gets paid for >their code. In this case, IBM could sell WPS for Linux, or sell it bundled >atop a free Linux, thus making money and helping the Linux community. If >they sold it as OSS, then others could modify the code and sell it back to >IBM, or sell it on their own. Interesting idea, but the Open Source Definition's very first clause is in direct contradiction to your claim: "1. Free Redistribution The license may not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license may not require a royalty or other fee for such sale. (rationale)" My reading of this is that, contrary to your premise, that: "Open source = free of charge." More importantly, your "cool idea" is impractical as it would require a *huge* bureaucracy to evaluate what percentage of the code from MyThing that TheirCorp is using. The fact that there are no licensing charges is one of the *fundamentally* important things about free software, and I quite agree with the Debian Project's decision to place this as the first clause in the definition. -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html> cbbrowne@hex.net - "What have you contributed to Linux today?..."
From: mpa@mpacons.ebsi.net (Marco Anglesio) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79n8gg$n6q$1@remarQ.com> <36c6b2e1.2832278@news-server> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802992059160001@term6-18.vta.west.net> <slrn7bvhjc.8v7.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> Organization: Ninety percent of everything Message-ID: <slrn7c0p39.cfp.mpa@mpacons.ebsi.net> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:39:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:39:27 EDT On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:24:06 GMT, Christopher B. Browne <cbbrowne@news.brownes.org> wrote: >More importantly, your "cool idea" is impractical as it would require >a *huge* bureaucracy to evaluate what percentage of the code from >MyThing that TheirCorp is using. For that matter, a large fraction of any given application is fairly non-transferable. Let's say you steal netscape's source for your own browser (your own anything, for that matter). You probably won't take any of the UI code. What would be useful are the image rendering routines. Not only would a bureaucracy have to evaluate how much code from a given application is being used, it would also have to evaluate how much said code is worth. marco -- ,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. > Marco Anglesio | It's more than magnificent; < > mpa@the-wire.com | it's mediocre. < > http://www.the-wire.com/~mpa | --Samuel Goldwyn < `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) Message-ID: <Yqzh521VLZKl-pn2-JV4cYS3kElkJ@slip129-37-242-76.ca.us.ibm.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79n8gg$n6q$1@remarQ.com> <36c6b2e1.2832278@news-server> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: 9 Feb 1999 16:40:08 GMT Organization: IBM Global Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:01:38, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) said: |No matter how you stack it up, it still comes down to the bottom line. It |would be very expensive for them to do what was proposed; how do they get |that money back (plus some profit, plus enough extra to pay all the taxes) |from users of a public domain, open source OS? | | How you get by in day to day living is beyond me. You only need to have extra money to pay taxes if you squandered all your profits on non-tax deductible pursuits. Which I IBMs costs in pursuing this would be not tax deductible?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: jpalmer@best.com (Joseph Palmer) Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Organization: Me? Organized? References: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> <79lus2$p6r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0802990645350001@elk88.dol.net> <79o0vr$3n8$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0902990817380001@wil99.dol.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:53:34 GMT Message-ID: <36c068c1$0$16679@nntp1.ba.best.com> In article <joe.ragosta-0902990817380001@wil99.dol.net>, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: <Snippage> >Nope. Moto shipped 0.25 first. > >As for 0.18, neither of them has it. Moto is supposed to be shipping in >Q2. Intel will first have it in the PIII laptop chips in Q3 or Q4 >(according to PC Week). Now if Motorola would only get a little more agressive on clock rates.... Intel is shippng flooding the market with 450 MHz parts, and 500MHz parts are shipping. It's time for these technical advances (like copper) to pay off in higher speeds. J.
From: maus@io.com (James Driscoll) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:43:26 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <SCOTT.99Feb5121236@slave.doubleu.com> <yl3vhhcpzfl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36c135b0.344092398@enews.newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: No Thank You... Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <36c16550.1422949@news.earthlink.net> On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:13:28 GMT, sean@forget.about.it (Seán Ó Donnchadha) wrote: >Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> wrote: >>Yes, I find it strange that if you remove something that has a dependency >>that the only effect is a "slow down" rather than something not working >>at all. > >Unusual, yes, but not beyond explanation. With IE installed as the >desktop shell, opening a new browser window is practically >instantaneous - it amounts to creating a new thread within the shell >process and popping up a new window. With IE installed as a separate >application (i.e., with Windows running some other shell), opening a >browser window requires the creation of a new IE process, which is >much slower. Err, sorry, that can't be it. Nice try though. That can't be the explanation because 1) IE wasn't installed at all and 2) they couldn't reproduce it. Jim
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:58:13 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79ppeu$f9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> In article <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de>, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote: > Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: [ ... ] >>> I oughta mention here that the StrongARM has no floating point processor, >>> no superscalar mechanism, and relatively unsophisticated pipelining. Sure...but it makes up for this by having a really, really fast clock rate. The ARM architecture is classic RISC; with only three or so phases per instruction (rather than five to seven, or more of CISC), you don't need to do deep pipelining, fancy hazard detection, stalling, and result forwarding, and all of the rest of the complicated things someone like Intel has had to do. >> Oh. I'm no hardware wonk, so I ask "Would that preclude using a >> Linux-on-StrongARM (a la SideWinder) as a home server?) > > Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? No. The default kernels everyone ships for the Intel world are compiled with the assumption that a FPU is available, but it's entirely possible to build Linux with the kernel trapping FPU calls to a software emulator. A port to the ARM would obviously be built with the kernel not expecting a FPU.... -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <voVv2.10$hW.87966@news.bctel.net> <slrn7c0cjv.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <36C03F22.A4047973@frostbytes.com> Organization: Twinco, Inc. Message-ID: <slrn7c0ntt.7qh.possum@ss5.fred.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:18:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:18:06 EDT On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:58:58 -0500, Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> wrote: >> Could you have >> imagined any open source OS officially running on IBM hardware two years >> ago? > >Yes, I could. The day they started using UNIX instead of stuff developed >internally they changed the culture a great deal -- and that happened back in >the 80s. > >jim Whoops! I just gotta take the blinders off, sometimes... Good point. :-) -- =========== Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: mike@lionsgate.com (Mike Stephen) Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: M Stephen Contracting References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> Message-ID: <voVv2.10$hW.87966@news.bctel.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:57:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 03:57:15 PDT In message - possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) writes: :> :>On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:32:57 GMT, Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: :>>Ok, as you may know, IBM as of March 1st is going to be supporting :>>Linux in a "company wide" effort. I've heard all kinda crap about how :>>the upperlayers of OS/2 couldn't be ported to Linux for this or that :>>reason. :>> :>>What I want is specific and definitive legal/tech reasons why, if IBM :>>decided to do it, they couldn't open source/port WPS (as OS/2's GUI is :>>called, as I recall) to Linux. Could M$ prevent IBM from doing it? How :>>hard would it be for IBM to reverse engineer those bits that M$ may :>>control so it could port WPS to Linux? :> :>It's really amazing how often this comes up. Anyway, here are the reasons :>against it, as I best understand, at this point: :> :>1) MS could prevent it, since they own copyrights and/or provided at least :>some of the source code to the WPS. Assuming IBM wants to even do it, :>this could possibly mean buying out and/or paying off MS for the :>priviledge. Actually there is no MS code in the WPS. It was entirely done by IBM. There was talk in IBM at the time (I was employed there at the time) of not giving Microsoft source code for the WPS. There were a number of us in IBM at the time that wanted IBM to release OS/2 2.0 without the WPS. This would have allowed OS/2 2.0 to be released about 1 year before it did. The WPS came from another IBM application front end for Office Vision. Office Vision was light years ahead of everything else in the industry. However like many things it was over sized, and bloated, and finally was dropped. The Actual interface became the WPS. In my opinion, letting OS/2 2.0 go without the shell to begin with, would have rocketed OS/2 to the number one position, as Microsoft had yet to deliver Windows 3.0. OS/2 2.0 could have beaten Windows 3.0 to market. I was only a lowly peon in the greater scheme of things. Since most of the applications available to run under Windows 3.0 initially were DOS programs, OS/2 2.0 without the WPS ran multiple DOS boxes much better than Windows 3.0 did. The interface of version 6.149 (an early beta of OS/2 2.0) was exactly like the windows 3.0 interface. Although nothing as good as the WPS, it would have sufficed to start the ball rolling with OS/2. I actually ran that version with my 4 line BBS system for three years, and did not upgrade to a released OS/2 until OS/2 ver 2.1. At that time OS/2 was in my opinion, stable enough for unattended BBS use. There were only a few Windows 3.0 programs available for the first 6 months of Windows 3.0 release. Those programs that were available, were also available for OS/2. They included Corel Draw 1.0, Word 6.0, MS WordPM, MS word ver. 5.0, Ventura Publisher, Aldus pagemaker, Word Perfect 5.0, and many others. It took over a year for Windows 3.0 programs to surpass what was available for OS/2. The WPS in my opinion, delayed OS/2 2.0 a year. The WPS should have been added to OS/2 2.1. IBM had an agreement to supply Microsoft with source code for OS/2 2.0. I think it was a mistake to include the WPS in the initial release of OS/2 2.0. And of course supply the source code of the WPS to Microsoft. It does make me wonder why Microsoft could release such a crappy interface, when they had the code of the WPS to start from. The real problem with making the WPS available for Linux or FreeBSD, is that it relies heavily on the SOM and DSOM model that IBM created. IBM did invite the open standards consortium to adopt the SOM and DSOM model, but they refused, and adopted a variation of the CORBA standards that did not embrace SOM. This is a fundamental mistake and will prevent the WPS from ever going beyond IBM. Pity, as it really is the most elegant solution. Linux and FreeBSD programmers are usually ex Windows programmers (at least when it comes to the GUI interface such as KDE and Gnome. This is why these interfaces are kinda corny and simplistic when compared to the WPS. IBM also did nothing to promote the WPS even among its own programmers. You could never get any information regarding programming techniques with the WPS. I know this directly as I helped produce one of the first WPS commercial applications. Fastback/2 was designed as a WPS application (there is no EXE files in Fastback/2). We had no help from IBM regarding bugs in the shell and received no help fixing them. The program had to be updated to run under Warp 3 from the initial release because of fixes IBM did to the shell requiring us to remove our previous work arounds to the initial bugs. Even today, WPS applications are often buggy, as different ISV's interpreted WPS API's differently than others did. This problem is akin to the old DOS troubles of installing TSRs in certain orders, due to incompatibility with each other. :> :>2) There are other corporate entities besides MS which own and/or provided :>source code for the WPS. So, once again, this means spending money to be :>able to give something away. That's a lot to do to buy goodwill. There are no other companies involved with the WPS to my knowledge. Remember the WPS is not the PM interface. Micrografix helped with the 32 bit graphics engine found in OS/2 2.1. However they had nothing to do with the actual WPS. :> :>3) I have touched upon this before, but there's a good possibility that at :>least parts of the WPS code are trade secrets, i.e., are intellectual :>property protected only by their own secrecy. By opening them up to :>public disclosure this could cause IBM to lose their IP rights to the :>code. This isn't a very smart move to make if you're a large corporation. Most of the underlying code was offered to the standards committees, but they went a different route. :> :> :>4) Reverse engineering I really shouldn't comment upon, since I do not :>write code for a living, nor do I know the specifics of the WPS innards. :>Let's just say that to reverse engineer the non-IBM parts of the WPS :>*will* cost a lot 'o money since it would require setting up a clean shop :>and hiring people that have no knowledge of the WPS innards to recreate :>the same. :> :>There are plenty of other reasons too, I'm sure. What it comes down to :>though is money. To do it IBM would have to spend a lot of it, simply to :>buy goodwill. To rip off Steven Den Beste, how's that going to help IBM's :>bottom line? At this time, I feel there is no hope. Two years ago, it could have happened. Today it is too little, too late. :> :> :>> >All of that is quickly not simply a "much rehashed" topic anymore, :>>it's becoming real. And I wanna know how hard it would be for it to :>>happen. :> :>Very hard. It could be done, but it would take a heap of money and some :>real balls on IBM's part. Now, let me make the mandatory statement; I :>would *love* IBM forever if they were to create an open source version of :>the WPS. I would flush KDE in a second. I just don't think it's gonna :>happen though. :> :>> :>>If IBM can't help, we're going to have to wait for someone (Sun, 3com, :>>VAResearch?) to buy Apple and port the upper levels of OSX to Linux :>>(which could be several years down the road.) :>> It is possible that IBM could run again with OS/2, but I fear IBM has caved in to Microsoft and will not persue OS/2 any further than they have to. It is a shame as they couda.... shoulda.... didn't!! mike@lionsgate.com
From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Organization: Twinco, Inc. Message-ID: <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:40:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:40:32 EDT On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:48:56 GMT, hunters@thunder.indstate.edu <hunters@thunder .indstate.edu> wrote: >In article <36c50a45.2302011@news-server>, > sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) wrote: > >> No-one has ever demonstrated a reason why doing this would benefit IBM >> financially. Until that hurdle is crossed, no other aspect of it matters. >> >> IBM top management is focused on profits. > >Now I happen to agree with you completely on this, so I was wondering, what >reason would IBM have in supporting Linux? (Which is free.) > >My anwser to my own question would be that they A) don't have to do squat to >"support" it. (Just stand at the sidelines and cheer) B) they'll get all the >Linux people to like them and C) they don't have to divulge any secrets, yadda >yadda yadda. > >I'd like to see some other thoughts... There is an interesting thread going on at slashdot about this very topic. There's at least one poster there, who claims to be an IBM employee, stating that Linux has and is being widely used internally at parts of IBM, and that much of IBM's announced support is really little more than coming out of the closet, so to speak. It's also a clever and low cost way to put pressure on MS, at a point when they are clearly on the defensive with regards to their marketing practices. It has *already* bought IBM immense goodwill in the Linux community. Go to slashdot to really read how the Linux community feels about it. > >-Steven Hunter >hunters@thunder.indstate.edu > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own -- =========== Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
From: possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <voVv2.10$hW.87966@news.bctel.net> Organization: Twinco, Inc. Message-ID: <slrn7c0cjv.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:05:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:05:04 EDT On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:57:15 GMT, Mike Stephen <mike@lionsgate.com> wrote: >In message - possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) writes: >:> >:>1) MS could prevent it, since they own copyrights and/or provided at least >:>some of the source code to the WPS. Assuming IBM wants to even do it, >:>this could possibly mean buying out and/or paying off MS for the >:>priviledge. > >Actually there is no MS code in the WPS. It was entirely done by IBM. > There was talk in IBM at the time (I was employed there at the time) >of not giving Microsoft source code for the WPS. There were a number >of us in IBM at the time that wanted IBM to release OS/2 2.0 without >the WPS. This would have allowed OS/2 2.0 to be released about 1 year >before it did. Now that's an interesting thought! It really could have changed things, couldn't it? OK, so assuming I'm wrong about my assumption regarding MS code in the WPS, I have to wonder if there's some kind of cross licensing agreement between MS and IBM over the IP rights to the WPS? This could be just as big a problem as my previous assumption. a big but interesting snip... > >The real problem with making the WPS available for Linux or FreeBSD, >is that it relies heavily on the SOM and DSOM model that IBM created. >IBM did invite the open standards consortium to adopt the SOM and DSOM >model, but they refused, and adopted a variation of the CORBA >standards that did not embrace SOM. This is a fundamental mistake and >will prevent the WPS from ever going beyond IBM. Pity, as it really >is the most elegant solution. It 's the old "not invented here" syndrome at work. Using KDE on Linux has made me realize just how limited the CORBA model really is. KDE is nice, but it's just not elegant.... > >Linux and FreeBSD programmers are usually ex Windows programmers (at >least when it comes to the GUI interface such as KDE and Gnome. This >is why these interfaces are kinda corny and simplistic when compared >to the WPS. Agreed. I'm waiting for GNOME to go 1.0. So far it *looks* good-let's hope it is good. >:> >:>2) There are other corporate entities besides MS which own and/or provided >:>source code for the WPS. So, once again, this means spending money to be >:>able to give something away. That's a lot to do to buy goodwill. > >There are no other companies involved with the WPS to my knowledge. > >Remember the WPS is not the PM interface. Micrografix helped with the >32 bit graphics engine found in OS/2 2.1. However they had nothing to >do with the actual WPS. Assuming that you're correct, this would simplify any potential release of the WPS, either as binary or source, immensely. It removes at least one herd of lawyers..... I just love IP attorneys-they are crunchy and good fried with horseradish. > >Most of the underlying code was offered to the standards committees, >but they went a different route. Apparently, reinventing the wheel is a popular pasttime. > >At this time, I feel there is no hope. Two years ago, it could have >happened. Today it is too little, too late. The political and cultural climate is different now. Open source and Linux is all the rage, MS is getting hammered in court, badly, and IBM is clearly trying to appeal to the open source movement. Could you have imagined any open source OS officially running on IBM hardware two years ago? > >It is possible that IBM could run again with OS/2, but I fear IBM has >caved in to Microsoft and will not persue OS/2 any further than they >have to. It is a shame as they couda.... shoulda.... didn't!! > >mike@lionsgate.com > Your posting was the single most informative one so far in this thread. Thanks for the information, it's quite interesting. -- =========== Mike Trettel trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net I don't buy from spammers. No exceptions. Fix the reply line to mail me.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: mike@lionsgate.com (Mike Stephen) Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: M Stephen Contracting References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <voVv2.10$hW.87966@news.bctel.net> Message-ID: <n1Xv2.25$hW.130752@news.bctel.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:49:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:49:07 PDT In message - possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) writes: :> :>On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:57:15 GMT, Mike Stephen <mike@lionsgate.com> wrote: :>>In message - possum@tree.branch (Mike Trettel) writes: :> :>>:> :>>:>1) MS could prevent it, since they own copyrights and/or provided at least :>>:>some of the source code to the WPS. Assuming IBM wants to even do it, :>>:>this could possibly mean buying out and/or paying off MS for the :>>:>priviledge. :>>It is possible that IBM could run again with OS/2, but I fear IBM has :>>caved in to Microsoft and will not persue OS/2 any further than they :>>have to. It is a shame as they couda.... shoulda.... didn't!! :>> :>>mike@lionsgate.com :>> :> :>Your posting was the single most informative one so far in this thread. :>Thanks for the information, it's quite interesting. :> :>-- Sometimes I like to correct some assumptions regarding OS/2s early days. Those were heady times at IBM. We thought we had the best chance with OS/2 2.0. However there are a number of reasons IBM missed the boat. The reasons I stated in my posting are only a few. There are many others that caused IBM to balk at OS/2. Not the least was Microsoft, but equally to blame were some really stupid decisions by IBM. As a result we are all now paying the price of having Windows so prevalent, we may never see the end of this poorly engineered operating environment. IBM will go down in history as the only company that could have taken the operating system from Microsoft. However as they have shown in the past, they are very capable of engineering a top operating system, and then fail to market it and support it. In the PC world IBM is only one of many computer manufacturers. There is very little difference between IBM, HP, Compaq, Dell, and Gateway. They could have had control of a wonderful operating system that would have set them apart from the rest. Now they only have a name, that many choose to bypass for cheaper computers from the aformentioned. As for Linux, I persoanlly feel it will go nowhere on the desktop. It may see limited use as a server, but not much on the desktop. It is too old, too clunky, to Geek styled to make a dent in the marketplace. FreeBSD is a much better solution based on the licensing. With the GPL licensing model, Linux is doomed to be only a niche player on Intel based computers. FreeBSD on the other hand allows ISV's to reuse code in a commercial environment. I think too many proponents of the Linux GPL do not realize they are thowing the baby out with the bath water. Commercial software is critical for any operating system to succeed. The most often reported reason for OS/2's failure is the lack of commercial software. The Linux GPL goes against the grain of all the current commercial software companies. Lets hope a few more realistic types can sway the GPL license away from the Stallmans of the world. Then perhaps Linux might have a small chance at more than a few installs. Untill then FREEBSD is the preferred version of free software. Anyhow those are obviously my opinions on the subject..... I am glad you found the posting interesting. I still use OS/2 exclusivly, and make a living supporting OS/2 Warp Server with my clients. I also install and support NT when my customers demand it, however it is not my choice. So far no one has requested anything to do with Linux, AIX, or FreeBSD. In my world the Linux crowd are no where to be seen. I still have an extra partition to install FreeBSD and Linux on for some of my customers to see when they drop by, and I can install it over the net in about 30 mins (I have an ADSL connection to the net), so an install can be done live for the client. So far no one has wanted me to install it. Most prefer to have me install a Windows XX or OS/2 Warp. Mike...... mike@lionsgate.com
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:17:33 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0902990817380001@wil99.dol.net> References: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> <79lus2$p6r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0802990645350001@elk88.dol.net> <79o0vr$3n8$1@hecate.umd.edu> In article <79o0vr$3n8$1@hecate.umd.edu>, davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote: > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: > : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. > : Wang) wrote: > > : > 0.18um is the drawn length of the gate. 0.11um is the effective channel > : > length. That doesn't make it a 0.11um process. That makes it a 0.18um > : > process with a 0.11um effective channel length. MPR used to use Effective > : > channel length as a predictor of process speed. They are now developing > : > a new metric, as the junction capacitance now predominate, and effective > : > channel lengths no longer become an accurate predictor of process > : > performance. > > : True. But as with the shift to 0.25, Moto beat Intel out of the box. > > Who beat whom out of what box? Who shipped 0.25um first? When? And > Who has a shipping 0.18um now? You're mixing up "announcement" with > actual shipping of products. Nope. Moto shipped 0.25 first. As for 0.18, neither of them has it. Moto is supposed to be shipping in Q2. Intel will first have it in the PIII laptop chips in Q3 or Q4 (according to PC Week). -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:47 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> In article <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com>, landivar2@geocities.com wrote: > jedi@dementia.mishnet wrote: > > > > > > > > >These customers actually PAY money for software. > > > > Yeah, and my copies of WABI, Applixware (2), Quake II, > > Ultima Online & Redhat 5.2 just fell off the truck.. > > Webobjects is serious money like $50,000 us money. For the full version. If you want a version that allows 50 transactions per second or something like that, get Mac OS X Server. It's $999. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.comp.lang.applescript Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:32:23 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Message-ID: <1dmyl0r.peebgdrw98yN@roxboro0-058.dyn.interpath.net> References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> <36BF5FA9.35B90A7@tca.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802991513380001@term6-22.vta.west.net> <F6w83n.M1M@T-FCN.Net> ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: > Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > > This thread made me think of something; is there a JavaScript OSAX? > > (For those who don't know, AppleScript is just the default language of > > Apple's "Open Scripting Architecture", and others, like Frontier and, I > > think, Perl, have been written into OSA eXtensions, or "OSAX"s). I don't > > know what any benefits or downfalls of this would be, but it's just a > > curiosity. MacPerl is a OSA environment, but it's not a OSAX (of course it can be scripted, so if you don't mind having MacPerl running all of the time, it could do the job of a OSAX). > I may be wrong on this, but I believe that WO4 includes JS, and uses OSA > to hook it in. Interesting. Do you remember where you heard this? (crossposted to alt.comp.lang.applescript) -- John Moreno
From: mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:44:13 +0000 Message-ID: <slrn7c0bct.4u.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <BB53DBA61B6E16B6.9EE0499AE947EA0B.89339764DE57F2F5@library-proxy.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) It was the Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:03:23 GMT... ..and Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:04:09 -0800, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den > Beste) wrote: > > >>If IBM can't help, we're going to have to wait for someone (Sun, 3com, > >>VAResearch?) to buy Apple and port the upper levels of OSX to Linux > >>(which could be several years down the road.) > > > >Seems like you brought this possibility up before. The idea of someone > >spending billions of dollars to purchase Apple simply to take their software > >and GIVE it to the Linux movement is ludicrous. Corporate philanthropy > >doesn't go that far. > > I don't mean "give," I mean "port as opensource." They can still > charge for it. For a corporation, releasing something as free software or giving it away for free are largely the same thing. If the source is open, but it cannot be copied freely, it's not an open source licence anymore, but an old-fashioned NDA source licence. mawa -- Every woman and every man should at least try to keep in mind through their whole life just how incredibly bad one is able to feel during puberty. -- mawa
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.comp.lang.applescript Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:56:40 +0100 Organization: Completely Disorganized Message-ID: <1dmz2qs.12ziy8ccz5nnkN@port162.bonn.ndh.net> References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> <36BF5FA9.35B90A7@tca.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802991513380001@term6-22.vta.west.net> <F6w83n.M1M@T-FCN.Net> <1dmyl0r.peebgdrw98yN@roxboro0-058.dyn.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 1999 17:56:41 GMT Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 John Moreno <phenix@interpath.com> wrote: > Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: > > > Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > > > This thread made me think of something; is there a JavaScript OSAX? > > > (For those who don't know, AppleScript is just the default language of > > > Apple's "Open Scripting Architecture", and others, like Frontier and, I > > > think, Perl, have been written into OSA eXtensions, or "OSAX"s). I don't > > > know what any benefits or downfalls of this would be, but it's just a > > > curiosity. > > MacPerl is a OSA environment, but it's not a OSAX (of course it can be > scripted, so if you don't mind having MacPerl running all of the time, > it could do the job of a OSAX). Nope. OSAX is an inofficial name for Scripting Addition. What you're thinking of is a Scripting Component. Something entirely different. Michael -- Michael Schuerig mailto:schuerig@acm.org http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:41:46 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79ps0n$hnp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36B9ACB0.D4E8A4A7@cadence.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-PtYlB87Q61gd@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36BE5C44.B98C6AD4@tca.com> In article <36BE5C44.B98C6AD4@tca.com>, landivar2@geocities.com wrote: > By the way the HFS+ spesification supports an unlimited # of forkes in one > file. Very nice. Next, someone will discover that just having one level of resource forks is too limiting, and they'll ask for a fork system capable of recursive levels. And then, someone will realize that they've already got a tool designed to hold any number of recusive levels, and any number of entities at each level, which is the filesystem itself. And then they'll realize that the "wrappers" concept from NeXT already did this. Discrete entities like images, sounds, and similar resources belong as discrete files that can be managed by the original tools, rather than by a resource editor ala RezEdit. This is a classic case of people building special-case solutions when they've already got a general-purpose tool available. You can see the same idea in play where Mach chose to use a single, unified messaging model called Mach messaging to replace shared memory, RPC, socketpair(), FIFOs, and similar forms of inter-process communication. By improving the general-purpose solution and making it capable of handling a broader range of usages well, you improve the performance of the system across the board. Mach messaging does IPC really fast because any improvements made to the implementation helped all forms of IPC, whereas the traditional Unix model meant that improving socket code didn't make shared memory any faster, and vice versa. Likewise, if you want to have random access to multiple resources like images and sounds, improve the filesystem so it can handle that case efficiently. Writing seperate routines to access chunks ("resources", "forks") within a file just means that you've got two areas to develop, test, and any improvements made to one area does not improve the other area. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: pudge@pobox.com (Chris Nandor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.comp.lang.applescript Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <pudge-0902991307430001@192.168.0.77> References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> <36BF5FA9.35B90A7@tca.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802991513380001@term6-22.vta.west.net> <F6w83n.M1M@T-FCN.Net> <1dmyl0r.peebgdrw98yN@roxboro0-058.dyn.interpath.net> Organization: Pudge.Net ?'D1cB]L9V=\OS(\8S,5 Barney... --Steven Wright Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:07:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:07:41 EDT In article <1dmyl0r.peebgdrw98yN@roxboro0-058.dyn.interpath.net>, phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote: >Maury Markowitz <maury@remove_this.istar.ca> wrote: > >> Forrest Cameranesi wrote: >> > This thread made me think of something; is there a JavaScript OSAX? >> > (For those who don't know, AppleScript is just the default language of >> > Apple's "Open Scripting Architecture", and others, like Frontier and, I >> > think, Perl, have been written into OSA eXtensions, or "OSAX"s). I don't >> > know what any benefits or downfalls of this would be, but it's just a >> > curiosity. > >MacPerl is a OSA environment, but it's not a OSAX (of course it can be >scripted, so if you don't mind having MacPerl running all of the time, >it could do the job of a OSAX). There used to be a MacPerl OSA Component. It did not work great. -- Chris Nandor mailto:pudge@pobox.com http://pudge.net/ %PGPKey = ('B76E72AD', [1024, '0824090B CE73CA10 1FF77F13 8180B6B6'])
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 9 Feb 99 13:16:07 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <B2E5E59B-9268B@208.200.110.183> References: <F6urqr.1Lp@RnA.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Feb 8, 1999 3:32 PM, Gerben Wierda <mailto:Gerben_Wierda@RnA.nl> wrote: >Just that portability is gone (no other hardware platforms, like Sun or >Intel, no mention of YB/NT or YB on any other OS) >In other places they have said they will promote Java as language. What does >tha bode for Objective-C and it's possibilities? > Disclaimer: I am not a developer and have no experience with such things. I am merely a fan of the soap which is Apple. My guess is that Obj-C is a dead end. Apple will work on making everything in the Yellowbox accessible via java-the-language with proprietary extensions while ensuring that 100% Pure works fine as well. Apple positions Java as the solution to portability. Of course, you lose the peculiar Yellow advantages in your apps, and have another reason to cuss Apple- Apple doesn't care, it's cheaper and easier for them in the long run. The developers are stuck with the task of creating a kind of fat binary for their apps, but hopefully Codewarrior helps out with this, providing tools to sort out code/convert classes between 100%Pure and Yellow java. Likely? No? scott
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 9 Feb 99 13:18:45 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <B2E5E63A-94BEE@208.200.110.183> References: <79ooho$ijt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, Feb 9, 1999 2:36 AM, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <mailto:quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote: >In article <79od26$9l8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > >> Simply that there might be some short term savings and ease of transition by >> having the initial OS X interface being a carbon app so the very same finder >> app would run on both OS X and OS 8.x systems. > >This is possible if Apple is planning on releasing new versions of the Mac OS, >without YellowBox support, with significant finder changes, after Mac OS X is >released. > I wouldn't be surprised if Apple went for the single Carbon Finder approach, given their past behavior. Anybody know when the Finder went PPC native? In the last couple revs, wasn't it? scott
From: rpeterson@globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:44:44 GMT Organization: Info-Tech News Server Message-ID: <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:47 -0500, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) wrote: >If you want a version that allows 50 transactions per second or something >like that, get Mac OS X Server. It's $999. I believe it allows 50 transactions per minute. Ron
From: bartosh@tamu.edu (Michael Bartosh) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:20:15 -0600 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Message-ID: <bartosh-0902991220150001@dhcp-165-91-120-180.resnet.tamu.edu> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 1999 18:21:34 GMT In article <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net>, 1050pi@netscape.net wrote: > Ok, as you may know, IBM as of March 1st is going to be supporting > Linux in a "company wide" effort. I've heard all kinda crap about how > the upperlayers of OS/2 couldn't be ported to Linux for this or that > reason. > > What I want is specific and definitive legal/tech reasons why, if IBM > decided to do it, they couldn't open source/port WPS (as OS/2's GUI is > called, as I recall) to Linux. Could M$ prevent IBM from doing it? How > hard would it be for IBM to reverse engineer those bits that M$ may > control so it could port WPS to Linux? > > All of that is quickly not simply a "much rehashed" topic anymore, > it's becoming real. And I wanna know how hard it would be for it to > happen. > > If IBM can't help, we're going to have to wait for someone (Sun, 3com, > VAResearch?) to buy Apple and port the upper levels of OSX to Linux > (which could be several years down the road.) > None of those companies could afford Apple. > -l > --- > Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered > REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information > is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE -- Michael Bartosh Student Rep Apple Computer, Inc. bartosh@tamu.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:41:13 -0500 From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Message-ID: <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> In article <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us>, rpeterson@globaldialog.com wrote: > On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:47 -0500, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) > wrote: > > >If you want a version that allows 50 transactions per second or something > >like that, get Mac OS X Server. It's $999. > > I believe it allows 50 transactions per minute. > Oops. I think you're right. Of course, lots and lots of people would be ecstatic with anything approaching 5 transactions per minute--much less 50. -- Regards, Joe Ragosta joe.ragosta@dol.net
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Linux mail apps for ex-Mail.app user? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Message-ID: <36c083a1.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 9 Feb 99 18:51:13 GMT Can anyone suggest a decent email app for Linux? One that would appeal to a Mail.app user? Thx, Jon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.comp.lang.applescript From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6wJD9.4o0@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: phenix@interpath.com Organization: needs one References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> <36BF5FA9.35B90A7@tca.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802991513380001@term6-22.vta.west.net> <F6w83n.M1M@T-FCN.Net> <1dmyl0r.peebgdrw98yN@roxboro0-058.dyn.interpath.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:27:09 GMT In <1dmyl0r.peebgdrw98yN@roxboro0-058.dyn.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote: > Interesting. Do you remember where you heard this? Just an impression I got from my boss after he went to see 4.0. There's a couple of different engines that come with it, including a VB-a-like (finally!), something called "WebScript" and JavaScript. I was assuming that the later plugged in using the same system, but I could be wrong on that one. Whether or not it _does_ is besides the point of whether or not it _should_. I definitely believe that everyone would benefit from having language angnostic scripting, not only at the server level, but in any application. For now I'd settle for the server level only, but some evagelism on Apple's part to make OSA _really_ _Open_Scripting would certainly be a good thing. Maury
From: fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:03:45 +0100 Organization: SERVICOM Message-ID: <36C19FD1.9CDC4368@egg.chips.and.spam.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guffaw! The new "remade" video has a machine running Windows 3.1 with a 28.8 modem pitted against against Windows 98 running a 33.3 modem. Microsoft is claiming that the Windows 98 machine is faster at downloading, and that the *only* difference is that the Windows 98 machine has the browser integrated into the OS. -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.invalid> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 10 Feb 1999 13:46:35 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <79s2jr$jh7$2@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> stephane@dial.eunet.ch (Stephane Leon) wrote: >The solution i find to replace my Next station i use since 1992 is G3 Mac, >and waiting for OS X Server. Well, I don't know.. I bought a PowerBook in September, since it was clear that Mac XS would be released any moment. Now it's February, no Mac XS, and it's even unclear whether I'll be able to run it at all. Next time I'll delay hardware purchases until the software is in my *hands*. Dang.. >- 400Mz. >- 256 MB. >- Studio display 21". Boy, this thing is ugly.. took a look at one this morning. I decided to get the LCD display instead. Takes a while to adjust, but the picture is absolutely terrific. >Thanks for all solutions people suggested to help me. Have fun! Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:03:04 +0000 Organization: Cadence Design System, Inc. Message-ID: <36C19FA8.3058A062@cadence.com> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36B9ACB0.D4E8A4A7@cadence.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-PtYlB87Q61gd@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36BE5C44.B98C6AD4@tca.com> <79ps0n$hnp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: > And then, someone will realize that they've already got a tool designed to > hold any number of recusive levels, and any number of entities at each level, > which is the filesystem itself. True enough, I think. Although the functionality of OSes with resource-forked filesystems is very nice, I do not think the filesystem feature is really required. I rather like the Archimedes solution - all GUI applications were directories containing all the required resources, setup files etc. Not so good on a multi-user machine, but then I suspect neither are resource forks. Simon
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Message-ID: <51+BOZdCco0b@cc.usu.edu> From: edx@cc.usu.edu Date: 10 Feb 99 06:11:25 MDT References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <F6qr9u.GpA@RnA.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In <F6qr9u.GpA@RnA.nl> Gerben Wierda wrote: > In <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> Abraham Guyt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Apple posted the new MacOS X Server faq at: > > > > http://developer.apple.com/faq/osxserverfaq.html > > I wonder why they call it a FAQ. *Very* frequently asked questions (like > YB/NT) aren't answered. > ;-) > Someone suggested we call it a FUQ for Frequently Unanswered Questions. Double :-)
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: 10 Feb 1999 17:12:26 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <79selq$hd9$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36B9ACB0.D4E8A4A7@cadence.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-PtYlB87Q61gd@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36BE5C44.B98C6AD4@tca.com> <79ps0n$hnp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C19FA8.3058A062@cadence.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote: >I rather like the Archimedes solution - all GUI applications were >directories containing all the required resources, setup files etc. >Not so good on a multi-user machine, but then I suspect neither are >resource forks. The Archimedes solution is in fact the same as the NeXT solution. Both have one disadvantage: file-loading is slowed down, when many resources are required. I don't consider this a limitation, but it is a marketing issue to many people, that applications should start up "nearly at once". Greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: gjohnson@dream.season.com (Reality is a point of view) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: 10 Feb 1999 17:08:04 GMT Organization: season.com [205.179.33.0] Message-ID: <79sedk$ahf$1@remarQ.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36C19FD1.9CDC4368@egg.chips.and.spam.com> +---- spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com wrote (Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:03:45 +0100): | The new "remade" video has a machine running Windows 3.1 with a | 28.8 modem pitted against against Windows 98 running a 33.3 modem. +---- Seriously?! That is interesting. Microsoft's Lead Counsel, standing in the light of sound bite, _emphatically_ said there was incredibly little difference between the modems. I believe his exact word was "academic", quickly defined as "meaningless". He didn't mention OS differences. I wonder if Microsoft marketeers would agree that Microsoft Windows 3.1 and Microsoft Windows 98 share the same lack of difference. If both modems were making 28.8 connections he could be correct. If not, well . . . Hey, maybe the 33.3 modem was a Winmodem eating CPU cycles! -- Gary Johnson gjohnson@season.com Privacy on the net is still illegal.
From: Frederic Foucault <ff48@NoSPAM.columbia.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:17:53 -0500 Organization: Columbia University Message-ID: <36C186FD.B68ED5B5@NoSPAM.columbia.edu> References: <79qe3j$nnb$1@plo.sierra.com> <B2E651C0-10EBB@208.200.110.174> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Feb 1999 13:18:09 GMT scott wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 1999 5:42 PM, Earl Malmrose > <mailto:earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: > >Andy Walton wrote in message ... > >>And I'm not sure, but I think the Mac's got 32-bit sound. > > > >Nope. > > > > Does anybody? High end professional digital audio production equipment uses > 24-bit. Confused with graphics perhaps? > > scott Almost all professional are recording in 20-bit audio since the last three to four years. Will be 24 bit in ... 10 years. Because you'll also need to replace the 16 bit CD audio which is the standard. Sincerely, -- _____F__r__e__d_____F__o__u__c__a__u__l__t_____ _____P o s t D o c G e n e t i c______ _____Genetics & Development Columbia University, NY_____ _____212-305-1734 voice 212-923-2090 fax www.bessy.com______
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux mail apps for ex-Mail.app user? Date: 10 Feb 1999 18:04:14 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36c1032d.3105053@news.icx.net> Message-ID: <19990210130414.27469.00000066@ng24.aol.com> I understand your frustration--I'm finding it hard to get up to speed on Linux myself (trying both at home--hard to allocate a machine/hard drive space) and at work (darn, no support for HFS+ AFAICT). A friend of mine is using Postilion though, and he seems really pleased with it. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:54:45 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As seen on Slashdot.org: http://www.eenn.net/dept/spot_2_8_99.html Apple couldn't deliver on the open-platform promise, but Linux will. The winners write the history books; will Apple and NeXT be any more than a footnote? MJP
From: roedy@mindprod.com (Roedy Green) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Organization: Canadian Mind Products Message-ID: <36c6ee12.124295237@news.bctel.ca> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36C19FD1.9CDC4368@egg.chips.and.spam.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:46:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:46:31 PDT On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:03:45 +0100, fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote: >The new "remade" video has a machine running Windows 3.1 with a >28.8 modem pitted against against Windows 98 running a 33.3 modem. There is an old saying "be like Caesar's wife". You must not only BE above suspicion, you must LOOK that way. Allowing MS to run any more "experiments" makes about as much sense an getting Charlie Manson to do his own bloodwork, or calling the defendant in a embezzlement case as an expert witness on forgery. If you want credibility, you need a trusted neutral source, who is willing to put their reputation the line, e.g. Price Waterhouse. It is FAR too easy to cook a benchmark. Even if Microsoft produced a 100% fair benchmark, who would accept it now? For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: <http://mindprod.com> -- Roedy Green, Canadian Mind Products -30-
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:23:23 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote: > > Apple couldn't deliver on the open-platform promise > > _Didn't_. There's a big difference between "didn't" and "couldn't". > Apple's actions are clearly deliberate, even if the reasons are mystifying. There certainly is a difference, but I don't happen to agree with your current analysis. Apple *couldn't*. At least, that's what you were willing to claim until quite recently. Something along the lines of "Apple would not have survived if it had continued to clone the Macintosh". Now, suddenly, a third party has accomplished it, and the double-standard must twist itself harder and harder to fit the facts. > > but Linux will. The winners write the history books; will Apple and > > NeXT be any more than a footnote? > > I don't know, but while you're predicting the outcome of the future Didn't do any such thing. We've been over and over this "reading" thing before, Maury. > any > tips on which mutuals to buy? My advice to you is to wait until after the year 2000 passes. But you didn't really want advice, you wanted to make it absolutely clear how bitterly you resent what I posted. Loud and clear. MJP
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:12:47 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:41:13 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >In article <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us>, >rpeterson@globaldialog.com wrote: > >> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:47 -0500, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) >> wrote: >> >> >If you want a version that allows 50 transactions per second or something >> >like that, get Mac OS X Server. It's $999. >> >> I believe it allows 50 transactions per minute. >> > >Oops. I think you're right. > >Of course, lots and lots of people would be ecstatic with anything >approaching 5 transactions per minute--much less 50. 50 TPM is actually a quite trivial load. Is this a product geared towards the MS Access crowd or real dbas and webmasters?
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:43:47 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:43:48 PDT In article <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com>, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >There certainly is a difference, but I don't happen to agree with your >current analysis. Apple *couldn't*. At least, that's what you were >willing to claim until quite recently. Something along the lines of >"Apple would not have survived if it had continued to clone the >Macintosh". > >Now, suddenly, a third party has accomplished it, and the >double-standard must twist itself harder and harder to fit the facts. Apple *couldn't* financially; if they had, they would have gone out of business. But they *could* technically; if they wanted to, and didn't worry about going out of business, they could have easilly made CHRP MBs. -- -Forrest Cameranesi forrest [at] west [dot] net "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 10 Feb 1999 22:13:28 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79t0a8$1vn$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com> <79ral0$qps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <79ral0$qps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/09/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com>, > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > >> I didn't say that they were. >> >> I said that Apple can cultivate new YB developers by offering >> an edu discount. Those new developers would come from education.. > >But why not encourage existing YB developers? > We're not as important to Apple's short-term goal... to keep Mac OS developers happy and on the platform. Its short-sighted.. and there are people at Apple that aren't happy with that, but thats what needs to be done. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:33:29 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> [ ...renamed, newsgroups trimmed, and all because DejaNews fails to trim long References: headers correctly... :-) ] In article <slrn7c1uro.jvd.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: > On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:18:02 -0500, Jonathan Haddad <leperkuhn@earthlink.net> wrote: [ ... ] >>> 50 TPM is actually a quite trivial load. Is this >>> a product geared towards the MS Access crowd or >>> real dbas and webmasters? >> >> If someone is serious, they can buy WebObjects. Not to tough. > > I someone is serious, they just buy a real database > for $1400 (or less) and not have to worry about > artificial thruput constraints that push one's thruput > down to the level of primitive flat-file ascii databases. > > They could even demo such a database gratis and not have > to worry about whether or not the 'real' version will > in fact suit their needs. You're either trolling or confused. WebObjects is not a database; neither is EOF. WOF is a development environment (a set of GUI tools, frameworks, and so forth) for developing dynamic websites. WOF largely uses EOF to provide this "dynamicism"-- which is the process of binding values from a data source as the HTML is generated rather than having static HTML content. WOF is ideal for doing things like online commerce sites, publishing, inventory, and so forth. EOF is a very good middleware layer for producing objects from resources like databases or flatfiles (or even network databases like LDAP or NetInfo-- anything that you can write an EOF adaptor for). EOF is smart; it uses faulting and can handle lots of tasks like rearranging result sets without having to do a transaction on the DB. This offloads work from the DB tier to the middle tier, and with proper design can significantly improve performance. Even without EOF expertise and good design, EOF's database transactions are generally efficient enough that you'd need an expert for the specific DB in use to spend a lot of time hand-tuning the SQL to make significnant improvements. But hey, if you don't understand N-tier design and the seperation of data from business logic from presentation, or entity-relationship modelling, or get why writing raw SQL in your program is really, really bad, that's your lookout. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: hunters@thunder.indstate.edu Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:39:06 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79q6d9$rp9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79nqs7$q7t$1@remarQ.com> In article <79nqs7$q7t$1@remarQ.com>, mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: <snip> > An alternative OS to MS in which IBM has some non-zero input. Please. IBM already has an alternative OS, which they own completely, and can make tons of money off of if they ever figured out how to advertise properly... > Suppose IBM wants to add some feature to the OS to make their > applications run better. If they ask MS to do this now, MS's > most likely reponse will be a hearty laugh. With Linux, they > could go one of two routes: 1) propose their new feature, and > get other people to go along with it; 2) just implement the > feature on their own release and ship it. Or they could just do it with OS/2 and forget about Linux. Why do they need Linux to do what you're saying? > Either option is (from IBM's viewpoint) suboptimal compared to being > able to rewrite their own OS at will, but better than the laughter > they'd get from MS. Option 2 might or might not be good from > the standpoint of OSS as a whole. But they *do* have their own OS already! Why should they give a FF about Linux? I think Den Beste is right, they're just going to sell tech support. It has nothing to do with MS. -Steven Hunter hunters@thunder.indstate.edu -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Jeff Freedman <jsf@hevanet.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Followup-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:45:22 -0800 Organization: Philips Semiconductor Message-ID: <918694158.729182801@news.hevanet.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36c8b3e2.3088609@news-server> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 08 Feb 1999, Steven C. Den Beste wrote: >It's not obvious that they're *contributing* anything to the Linux cause, >except perhaps legitimization. Well, they've already contributed REXX and the Jikes JAVA compiler. Anyway, I don't see why a WPS port to Linux has to be free or even open-source. I'd be happy to pay $60 or so for it if its well-done, and I imagine many others would as well.
From: matso@dtek.chalmers.se (Mats Olsson) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cancel Control: cancel <79t8lm$quk$1@nyheter.chalmers.se> Date: 11 Feb 1999 00:36:49 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Message-ID: <79t8n1$qv5$1@nyheter.chalmers.se> <79t8lm$quk$1@nyheter.chalmers.se> was cancelled from within trn.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Message-ID: <cdoutyF6yv5t.1rL@netcom.com> Sender: cdouty@netcom.netcom.com Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc. References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> <79pip6$n7o$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:37:05 GMT In article <79pip6$n7o$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de>, Bernhard Scholz <scholz@leo.org> wrote: >rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) wrote: >>Does AppleScript have any relationship to any standard scripting >>language like ECMAScript (JavaScript)? >> >Hm, I don't know whether the standard is OSAX or differently named, >but one prominent other language implementation to control applications >is "Rexx". I thought I remember that AppleScript and Rexx both have >the same roots in some kind of "standard". I don't know about any "standard," but Rexx is *far* older than AppleScript. As you probably know, Rexx is a popular language on IBM mainframes and is the native scripting language for OS/2. There was an excellent implementation for the Amiga called ARexx which became part of the OS and pervaded the applications space. Some very complicated and useful workspace integration was done on the Amiga using ARexx and scriptable applications. Both languages may have a common linguistic ancestor or maybe AS is derived from Rexx. Anyone? -Chris -- Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software cdouty@netcom.com "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
Message-ID: <36C202AD.398A9668@flash.net> From: "Charles R. Lyttle" <lyttlec@flash.net> Organization: self MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36C19FD1.9CDC4368@egg.chips.and.spam.com> <36c6ee12.124295237@news.bctel.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:06:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:06:21 CDT Roedy Green wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:03:45 +0100, fungus > <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> wrote: > > >The new "remade" video has a machine running Windows 3.1 with a > >28.8 modem pitted against against Windows 98 running a 33.3 modem. > > There is an old saying "be like Caesar's wife". You must not only BE > above suspicion, you must LOOK that way. > > Allowing MS to run any more "experiments" makes about as much sense an > getting Charlie Manson to do his own bloodwork, or calling the > defendant in a embezzlement case as an expert witness on forgery. > > If you want credibility, you need a trusted neutral source, who is > willing to put their reputation the line, e.g. Price Waterhouse. It > is FAR too easy to cook a benchmark. > > Even if Microsoft produced a 100% fair benchmark, who would accept it > now? > > For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: <http://mindprod.com> > -- > Roedy Green, Canadian Mind Products > -30- Why do you think the Gov. is letting MS keep putting on these videos. Commentary in the SJ Mercury said that MS looked like it was trying to win "Americas Funniest Home Video" awards. It seems to me, though, that MS might not have been that far off. Windows (of all stripes) is such a dog (in speed terms) that anything above 14.4 seems to be of interest only to the IP. It doesn't make that much difference in my total time in downloads or uploads. -- Russ Lyttle, PE <http://www.flash.net/~lyttlec>
From: nospamhattonr@aug.com (Rick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:36 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <19990210214436353728@ts2-44.aug.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > As seen on Slashdot.org: > > http://www.eenn.net/dept/spot_2_8_99.html > > Apple couldn't deliver on the open-platform promise, but Linux will. The > winners write the history books; will Apple and NeXT be any more than a > footnote? > > MJP Couldnt? Please. MacOS HAS been run on IBM CHRP machines.
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:11:53 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:11:53 GMT quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote: :In article <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com>, : sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: : :> If you say so.. however the historical evidence (when YB was :> uttered in the past) proves you wrong.. : :Originally, wasn't Amelio trying to replace the traditional Mac OS toolbox :with YellowBox? If that was the case then, of course, most toolbox developers :would be upset. Now that Carbon is going to be supported as far as the eye :can see, why would Toolbox developers care if YellowBox was promoted? I think it's because both YB and Carbon developers are UltraSkeptical and are willing to believe the worst of any hint that Apple gives them. (1) Apple promotes YB: 100% of MacOS developers freak. {Already empirically proven} (2) Apple promotes Carbon: 80% of YB developers freak. {Under way} (3) Apple promotes YB + Carbon equally: 50% of Carbon developers freak. (0% of YB developers freak.) Right now, anything which freaks traditional MacOS developers is verboten. I think they made the calculation that losing 50% of MacOS is worse than 80% of OpenStep. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: macghod@concentric.net (Steve Sullivan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:00:59 -0800 References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <casper-2501990555180001@192.168.1.3> Organization: Concentric Message-ID: <macghod-0902991300590001@sdn-ar-002casbarp095.dialsprint.net> In article <casper-2501990555180001@192.168.1.3>, casper@nb.net (Tim Scoff) wrote: > >Apple have never been going out of business. > > > >Apple's doom has been predicted for the last 10 years, and it never came. > > > >It never will. So I guess Steve Jobs is a liar, since he said Apple was on the verge of going out of business when he took over? I want to hear you admit it, Steve Jobs lied. > I was referring to those predictions. Apple's demise has been > predicted by many, many people for years.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:41:14 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> <36C20D64.7ED32225@ericsson.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:41:14 GMT On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:51:16 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >Yes, that is a fairly good example of what I was describing. It is a >little obvious, since we would *hope* that Apple had the technical >capabilities necessary to produce CHRP MBs (most of the cloners could do >this themselves). At no point did cloning increase the Apple market at all. Are you saying that what held back the Apple cloners was the lack of CHRP? Do you have anything to support that assumption? I think that the only thing holding Apple back from increasing market share was the lack of a compelling product; not the lack of an "Open Standard" like CHRP. Beige boxes from companies no one has heard of didn't compel anyone to buy a Mac; unlike the iMac. More importantly, CHRP motherboards have been made by Motorola for a while now. In fact, Moto's part of the CHRP deal was just that. They were to build a 3rd party market and a network of VARs around CHRP hardware and they failed miserably at doing that. (Would you like to talk to people who worked for VARs that had deals with Moto killed for no reason other that Moto not being able to commit to CHRP?) CHRP (and PREP before that) were long dead before Apple killed off cloning.
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:41:12 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <79tjgo$59n$1@news.panix.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 1999 03:41:12 GMT On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:23:23 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >Now, suddenly, a third party has accomplished it, and the >double-standard must twist itself harder and harder to fit the facts. What double standard?
Message-ID: <36C252B5.EF3307C1@home.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari=AE?= <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <19990210214436353728@ts2-44.aug.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:48:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:48:09 PDT He meant that Apple didn't follow through with the CHRP plan, not that Apple was technically unable to move the MacOS to CHRP. There was a rumor a while back that MacOS 8.0 released around the time of CHRP's death could be installed on the IBM hardware, but stuff like the floppy didn't work I like the idea of PPC motherboards, especially since these MCG boards are sort of nicer than what Apple has decided to give us, but they are meant for embedded systems and are much more expensive than comparable (dual processor) intel pII systems that will run the same software (I'm thinking Linux). Furthermore, the 604 series has the L2 cache on the memory bus (66mhz) right? The 604e is a superior chip to the g3 but its starving w/o a faster L2. And NeXT will be more than a footnote because windowmaker will be the preferred look n' feel for X windows for years to come :) -- ari Rick wrote: > Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > As seen on Slashdot.org: > > > > http://www.eenn.net/dept/spot_2_8_99.html > > > > Apple couldn't deliver on the open-platform promise, but Linux will. The > > winners write the history books; will Apple and NeXT be any more than a > > footnote? > > > > MJP > > Couldnt? Please. MacOS HAS been run on IBM CHRP machines.
From: "Simon WrightŪ" <wright@vic.bigpond.net.aux> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh,alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.conspiracy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Ŋ`·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! `·.ļļ.·īŊ`·.ļļ.·īŊ` Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:17:25 +1100 Organization: BPC Product Development Message-ID: <79q8ma$r65$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> References: <genny-2401991708280001@ppp7.ccms.net> <casper-2401992237260001@192.168.1.3> <78gs99$4tu$1@m2.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> <casper-2501990555180001@192.168.1.3> <macghod-0902991300590001@sdn-ar-002casbarp095.dialsprint.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 1999 21:18:02 GMT >So I guess Steve Jobs is a liar, since he said Apple was on the verge of >going out of business when he took over? I want to hear you admit it, >Steve Jobs lied. I don't recall Steve Jobs saying that. Besides, he didn't take over, he was bought back along with NeXT. Simon Wright.
From: sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Message-ID: <36c96590.6850430@news-server> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36c8b3e2.3088609@news-server> <918694158.729182801@news.hevanet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:15:13 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:15:14 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:45:22 -0800, Jeff Freedman added this to Deja News: >On Mon, 08 Feb 1999, Steven C. Den Beste wrote: > >>It's not obvious that they're *contributing* anything to the Linux cause, >>except perhaps legitimization. > >Well, they've already contributed REXX and the Jikes JAVA compiler. > >Anyway, I don't see why a WPS port to Linux has to be free or even open-source. > I'd be happy to pay $60 or so for it if its well-done, and I imagine many >others would as well. We keep running into one roadblock. Let's see, how does it go? profit = revenue - expense. If expense > revenue then profit < 0 If profit < 0 then the shareholders sue. IBM will not embark on such a project unless they have a clear expectation before they begin that they can make a profit off of it. They are LEGALLY OBLIGATED to take this attitude. And despite what OS/2 users think, there is not universal acknowledgement that WPS is the best UI since Saint Babbage lived. If there's one rule which is universally true of the Linux community, it's that they collectively agree about virtually nothing regarding esthetics. Profitability of such a port would be a crapshoot. It's virtually impossible to guess how well it would sell, and IBM doesn't take those kinds of chances. -------- Steven C. Den Beste sdenbes1@san.rr.com "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." -- Falstaff, "Henry IV, Part II", Shakespeare
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:34:13 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79ttl5$5g7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com> <79ral0$qps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79t0a8$1vn$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79t0a8$1vn$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > Its short-sighted.. and there are people at Apple that aren't > happy with that, but thats what needs to be done. Do you really believe that or are you just trying to explain Apple's thinking? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1002992247300001@term6-28.vta.west.net> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <19990210214436353728@ts2-44.aug.com> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:47:28 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:47:32 PDT This thread made me think of something... If someone else is making CHRP motherboards now, and MacOS X is to be based on Mach, couldn't someone just write a driver for Mach for these motherboards, buy a copy of OSX, and install it on a machine based around this? Of course it wouldn't be supported at all, but it could greatly open up the options for cloning. Ideally, in my mind at least, Apple would just sell the individual parts they make (plastics and input devices and displays and such, the MacOS UI and associated apps, the enterprise products [WO, YB, EOF, etc] they got from NeXT, and multimedia stuff like QT and FinalCut), and then soloutions of these parts assembled with other 3rd party parts. So, Joe Newbie could buy an iMac soloution from Apple; all-in-one casing, PPC or Intel processor depending on their needs, some quality motherboard, decent graphics and sound, networking, etc, with Apple's MacOSX package - Mach, YB, Carbon, MacUI, etc - and other basic software installed atop it. While experts like you or me could buy whatever box they want (I would probably get one of Apple's own plastics), whatever the best motherboard is, best graphics and audio for the job, and then assemble their own software package atop it (Linux with YB and MacUI, if you so choose). -- -Forrest Cameranesi forrest [at] west [dot] net "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
From: "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:35:13 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Message-ID: <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a follow up, does anyone know if you can NXhost to black from Mac OS X server. Is any of the old DPS code still there? Mitch -- ---------- In article <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> wrote: > Is it possible to netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server? I have > a copy of the Rhapsody DR release and I never tried this, but since there is > so much NeXT code in there, I suspected it would work. > > Anyone have any ideas? > > Mitch > -- >
From: sean@forget.about.it (Seán Ó Donnchadha) Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:21:28 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Message-ID: <36c29816.12314827@enews.newsguy.com> References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <SCOTT.99Feb5121236@slave.doubleu.com> <yl3vhhcpzfl.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36c135b0.344092398@enews.newsguy.com> <36c16550.1422949@news.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:43:26 GMT, maus@io.com (James Driscoll) wrote: >> >>Unusual, yes, but not beyond explanation. With IE installed as the >>desktop shell, opening a new browser window is practically >>instantaneous - it amounts to creating a new thread within the shell >>process and popping up a new window. With IE installed as a separate >>application (i.e., with Windows running some other shell), opening a >>browser window requires the creation of a new IE process, which is >>much slower. > >Err, sorry, that can't be it. Nice try though. > I wasn't really "trying". I've seen this exact behavior on my own NT box at work. > >That can't be the >explanation because 1) IE wasn't installed at all > Wrong; IE certainly *WAS* installed. Felten's program doesn't even try to remove it. > >and 2) they couldn't >reproduce it. > The difference is there, even if (a) it's negligible on big machines, and (b) it diminishes with repeated tests as the IE modules get cached.
From: Christian Neuss <neuss@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.invalid> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 11 Feb 1999 11:17:48 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Darmstadt Message-ID: <79ue8s$6ee$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) wrote: >(3) Apple promotes YB + Carbon equally: 50% of Carbon developers freak. > (0% of YB developers freak.) > >Right now, anything which freaks traditional MacOS developers is verboten. Amen. If Apple does not succeed in getting the majority of MacOS users and the large software companies to switch over to Carbon, it's OVER. No more yellow box. No more WebObjects. In the long run, we'd be left with the choice of either becoming Yet Another Java Monkee, or starting to program Visual Basic (I last programmed Basic when I was in my teens, thank you very much Sir). I'm as unhappy with MacOS as the average OPENSTEP developer, but we need to cut Apple some slack. For the time being, I'm halfways comfortable with WebObjects and YB NT. Yes, we make customers purchase WO 4.0 developer so they can deploy YB. So what. It could be worse. Remember 1995? Chris -- // Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.." // fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:23:00 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79ueif$jll$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <19990210214436353728@ts2-44.aug.com> <36C252B5.EF3307C1@home.com> In article <36C252B5.EF3307C1@home.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari=AE?= <arikounavis@home.com> wrote: [cut] > I like the idea of PPC motherboards, especially since these MCG boards are > sort of nicer than what Apple has decided to give us, but they are meant for > embedded systems and are much more expensive than comparable (dual processor) > intel pII systems that will run the same software (I'm thinking Linux). I wouldn't think that they're aimed at the embedded market; they *are* expensive, and they have been specifically enabled for and tested underneath a wide range of general-purpose operating systems. With features like dual Fast Ethernet channels and dual SCSI hosts you're probably looking at the server/compute-node market. In any case, Motorola has a number of successful products in its PowerQUICC line of embedded networking processors. We're using some of those at Ericsson, and they're much lower-cost and lower-power than 604s could manage. > Furthermore, the 604 series has the L2 cache on the memory bus (66mhz) right? > The 604e is a superior chip to the g3 but its starving w/o a faster L2. Even without the high-speed cache bus these boards will offer competitive performance. The price is high, but any number of factors might account for that. > And NeXT will be more than a footnote because windowmaker will be the > preferred look n' feel for X windows for years to come :) That could very well be. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mlchale@mailbox.uq.oz.au (Chris Hale) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 11 Feb 1999 11:35:36 GMT Organization: Private Message-ID: <mlchale-1102992135200001@zzthale.dialin.uq.net.au> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> <36C20D64.7ED32225@ericsson.com> <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com> In article <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:51:16 -0600, > Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > >Yes, that is a fairly good example of what I was describing. It is a > >little obvious, since we would *hope* that Apple had the technical > >capabilities necessary to produce CHRP MBs (most of the cloners could do > >this themselves). > > At no point did cloning increase the Apple market at all. Are you > saying that what held back the Apple cloners was the lack of CHRP? Do > you have anything to support that assumption? > > I think that the only thing holding Apple back from increasing market > share was the lack of a compelling product; not the lack of an "Open > Standard" like CHRP. Beige boxes from companies no one has heard of > didn't compel anyone to buy a Mac; unlike the iMac. > > More importantly, CHRP motherboards have been made by Motorola for a > while now. In fact, Moto's part of the CHRP deal was just that. They > were to build a 3rd party market and a network of VARs around CHRP > hardware and they failed miserably at doing that. (Would you like > to talk to people who worked for VARs that had deals with Moto killed > for no reason other that Moto not being able to commit to CHRP?) > > CHRP (and PREP before that) were long dead before Apple killed off > cloning. Reading this makes sad feelings - Oh well. My last contract was helping replace a world class Macintosh site. It readly worked! It worked not only because the Mac has many advantages but because to the great Mac support staff and the general Mac community support infrastructure all helped. APPLE let them down. All Compaq now. It's being replaced because no company or professional is going down the APPLE only path. Sorry replace the word APPLE, with IBM with UNISYS, with DEC etc etc. This World class Mac site had written a company policy that underlined the stupidity of a single source supplier - so even though the Mac management did not want to, they were forced when APPLE dumped cloning (because dumping the clone program suited APPLE). I have not looked into the Mac community much but this peek shows how belief is the rock around all hinges. Belief is a poor subsitute for knowing. Get real! Emonk TFN
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:32:38 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: [cut] > But hey, if you don't understand N-tier design and the seperation of data from > business logic from presentation, or entity-relationship modelling, or get why > writing raw SQL in your program is really, really bad, that's your lookout. It's only bad if you have better options. The not-so-long-ago DBA craze produced a lot of people with the skills you mentioned, and a virtual mountain of hand-tuned SQL code. No combination of EOF expertise and WebObjects licenses is going to fix that, and the philosophy presented of "dump your SQL and move to WebObjects" is just the sort of trouble that causes Windows NT migrations en masse. RogueWave's DBTools.h++ product works with existing codebases to streamline the creation of new N-tier designs. Since you get a source license when you buy the product, and DBTools.h++ is fundamentally about *producing* hand-editable code that does the necessary job, it fits in well with the existing piles and piles of C, C++, and SQL code that currently makes enterprise systems tick. Politically speaking, it works for managers and DBAs who aren't being asked to adopt a completely new approach. Coupled with a presentation-like layer such as RW-Metro, it seems more like the sort of product enterprises are looking for than WebObjects does. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36C2DF8B.B7E1EC91@frostbytes.com> From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36c8b3e2.3088609@news-server> <918694158.729182801@news.hevanet.com> <36c96590.6850430@news-server> <36c26d7a.0@oasis.idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:47:55 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:46:13 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne > The WPS > is one of OS/2's most compelling features, especially with real power users. > A port of the WPS to Linux might sell some copies, however what's the point if > it winds up affecting OS/2 sales? *What* OS/2 sales? They've given up selling the client version of product, they only sell maintenance subscriptions now. Active development and sales are still being done for the server variant, but WPS is not a huge selling point for the server. Even Indelible Blue has branched out into other things (particularly Linux). Why do you suppose that is? > Besides which, there are technical reasons that would make it difficult. > For one, the WPS is very heavily multithreaded - and Linux just doesn't have > the lightweight threading support to handle it. Linux has complete support for POSIX Pthreads, it should have no trouble supporting WPS or something like it. jim
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-0902991410340001@term6-22.vta.west.net> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79n8gg$n6q$1@remarQ.com> <36c6b2e1.2832278@news-server> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802992059160001@term6-18.vta.west.net> <slrn7bvhjc.8v7.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:10:34 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:10:35 PDT In article <slrn7bvhjc.8v7.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>, cbbrowne@hex.net wrote: >>Open source != free of charge. [snip] >Interesting idea, but the Open Source Definition's very first clause >is in direct contradiction to your claim: > >"1. Free Redistribution Ok. According to most open source licences, you do have to provide it free of charge. But one could have a licence on their product which opens the source but still sells the products for charge. So, "Open Source" (or whatever) may indeed require free distribution, but simply having open source code does not neccesarily preclude it. -- -Forrest Cameranesi forrest [at] west [dot] net "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F7006y.CAM@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com Organization: needs one References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:23:21 GMT In <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote: > There certainly is a difference, but I don't happen to agree with your > current analysis. Apple *couldn't*. At least, that's what you were > willing to claim until quite recently. Something along the lines of > "Apple would not have survived if it had continued to clone the > Macintosh". Ahh, I thought you were referring to "YB everywhere". > My advice to you is to wait until after the year 2000 passes. But you > didn't really want advice, you wanted to make it absolutely clear how > bitterly you resent what I posted. Yeah, it keeps me up and night. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: AppleScript for Mac OS X Server Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F700Jo.CJF@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: cdouty@netcom.com Organization: needs one References: <C_uv2.240$FN3.28324@homer.alpha.net> <79pip6$n7o$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <cdoutyF6yv5t.1rL@netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:30:59 GMT In <cdoutyF6yv5t.1rL@netcom.com> Chris Douty wrote: > Both languages may have a common linguistic ancestor or maybe AS is > derived from Rexx. Anyone? Neither from what I can see. AS came from HyperTalk from HyperCard, it looks and feels unlike just about anything anywhere. Maury
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F70ACK.Hvy@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Organization: needs one References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:02:44 GMT In <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > This has not been proven. It has been proven that Mac OS developers freak > when told that the majority of their legacy code and skill will be tossed > aside. We have yet to see if Mac OS developers will freak if YellowBox > is promoted while Apple is yelling Carbon from the highest tower That was a different case. Nevertheless I know afair number of Mac developers, and I'd say this is "resonably true". Matt's points seem valid to me. Maury
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 11 Feb 1999 22:30:34 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79vlma$1pn$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com> <79v2ag$olc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <79v2ag$olc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> On 02/11/99, John Jensen wrote: >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > >: I said that Apple can cultivate new YB developers by offering >: an edu discount. Those new developers would come from education.. > >There are some rare individuals who, as students, can tackle and complete >a comercial quality application. > That maybe true.. however those who have been trained in YB can then take those skills to companies who have the actual marketing savvy.. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 11 Feb 1999 22:36:02 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/11/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, > mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com wrote: > >> I think it's because both YB and Carbon developers are UltraSkeptical >> and are willing to believe the worst of any hint that Apple gives them. > >Agreed. > >> (1) Apple promotes YB: 100% of MacOS developers freak. {Already empirically >> proven} > >This has not been proven. Its not only been proven.. its been demonstrated. When Mac OS X Server was announced and Steve made the mistake of not putting Blue Box on the slides.. they freaked hugely. Witness the MacWeek quotes from such notables as Dantz, and the "un-named source" (my bet? WebStar folks)... <snip> >You should have said: > >(2) Apple promotes Carbon while not doing anything to promote YB and not doing >much to counter-act negative rumors: 80% of YB developers freak. {Under way} > At every possible instance those involved with the YB development at apple are saying that it isn't dead.. the FAQ, the Mac OS X product site... quotes to user groups... >> (3) Apple promotes YB + Carbon equally: 50% of Carbon developers freak. >> (0% of YB developers freak.) > >My hypotheses (which should be tested, of course): > >(3) Apple promotes YB + Carbon equally: 5% of Carbon developers freak. > (2% of YB developers freak.) > >> I think they made the calculation that losing 50% of MacOS is worse than >> 80% of OpenStep. > >Of course, but there is nothing to support the conclusing that Mac OS >developers will freak if YellowBox is promoted. You keep saying that... but you're not listening to the arguments that its already happening. >Also, if Apple really believes >that YB is the future, then they have to be willing to accept some loss to >promote it. At some point in the future perhaps.. but not until they can ship it to a wide number of their customers... -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 12 Feb 1999 00:14:53 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7c6sjt.ffe.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <79kmkf$16hq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79l5mf$m3l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 1999 00:14:53 GMT quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote: :In article <79kmkf$16hq$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu>, : Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote: :> Because Carbon is still a risk to begin with. I sure there are a lot :> of people who are skeptical that Carbon will work, and maybe if they :> start promoting YellowBox people might think something is wrong :> in Carbon land. :I don't think that Carbon is much of a risk. There is something seriously :wrong at Apple if they can't make it work. Carbon is more of a technical, and a schedule, risk than Yellow Box. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:59:38 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a05el$4di$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> <36C20D64.7ED32225@ericsson.com> <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com> In article <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:51:16 -0600, > Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > >Yes, that is a fairly good example of what I was describing. It is a > >little obvious, since we would *hope* that Apple had the technical > >capabilities necessary to produce CHRP MBs (most of the cloners could do > >this themselves). > > At no point did cloning increase the Apple market at all. Are you > saying that what held back the Apple cloners was the lack of CHRP? Do > you have anything to support that assumption? > That's not entirely true. There was at one point of cloning a tiny growth in Mac OS platform share (less than 1%), but as it occurred at the same time as an Apple Hardware market share drop the majority of the computer press ignored it and continued with the Apple is doomed thing. Not surprising since the mac platforms health or popularity has always been attributed to Apple hardware sales and never really counted the cloners. Still the cloners were pretty stupid to think apple would just let them sell into core markets without dramatically increasing platform market share into new ones. Mac OS 8.0 did boot and run on IBM PReP systems however (without floppy support)... RAX. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 12 Feb 1999 03:18:15 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <7a06hm$oph$2@news.panix.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> <36C20D64.7ED32225@ericsson.com> <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com> <mlchale-1102992135200001@zzthale.dialin.uq.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 1999 03:18:15 GMT On 11 Feb 1999 11:35:36 GMT, Chris Hale <mlchale@mailbox.uq.oz.au> wrote: >In article <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: >> At no point did cloning increase the Apple market at all. Are you <<clip>> >> I think that the only thing holding Apple back from increasing market >> share was the lack of a compelling product; not the lack of an "Open >> Standard" like CHRP. Beige boxes from companies no one has heard of >> didn't compel anyone to buy a Mac; unlike the iMac. <<clip>> >> CHRP (and PREP before that) were long dead before Apple killed off >> cloning. > >My last contract was helping replace a world class Macintosh site. It >readly worked! It worked not only because the Mac has many advantages but >because to the great Mac support staff and the general Mac community >support infrastructure all helped. APPLE let them down. All Compaq now. Odd they would go with Compaq, since Compaq uses non standard PC hardware and they are the sole source for that hardware. And are they now running Windows? Odd, since Microsoft is the sole source for that. You do know that when Apple had cloners they were the only source for MacOS? >It's being replaced because no company or professional is going down the >APPLE only path. Sorry replace the word APPLE, with IBM with UNISYS, with >DEC etc etc. > >This World class Mac site had written a company policy that underlined the >stupidity of a single source supplier - so even though the Mac management >did not want to, they were forced when APPLE dumped cloning (because >dumping the clone program suited APPLE). The ugly truth is that F500 companies have been dumping the Mac in just about all aspects other than graphics at a pretty much the same rate before, during and after cloning. >I have not looked into the Mac community much but this peek shows how >belief is the rock around all hinges. Belief is a poor subsitute for >knowing. Regardless of what you might believe, I _know_ that at no point did the availability of 2nd source hardware increase the Mac market by even 1%. I can forward you the cold dry stats if you want. I also know that the iMac _has_ increase the size of the Mac market, and I can forward you the cold dry facts on that as well. The one thing holding Apple back was the lack of a product the market wanted.
From: oberon@brltd.com (Oberon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:10:28 -0800 Organization: Banson & Reeves Ltd. Message-ID: <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> You can't netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server. Mac OS 8.5 doesn't run on NeXT hardware and that's what Mac OS X server netboots clients into. -O > In article <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Mitchell Allen" > <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> wrote: > > > > Is it possible to netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server? I have > > a copy of the Rhapsody DR release and I never tried this, but since there is > > so much NeXT code in there, I suspected it would work. > > > > Anyone have any ideas? > > > > Mitch > > -- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oberon "Anyone who has begun to think places some portion of the world in jeopardy." -- John Dewey
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:42:17 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > When Mac OS X Server was announced and Steve made the mistake > of not putting Blue Box on the slides.. they freaked hugely. Of course they did; not showing the Blue Box cast doubt on it's presence in Mac OS X Server. > At every possible instance those involved with the YB > development at apple are saying that it isn't dead.. the FAQ, the Mac > OS X product site... quotes to user groups... The problem is that those kind of assurances have no meaning when they come from Apple. Do you remember how Apple has promoting the Netwon in the weeks before they flat out killed it. So how can you assign any value to merely verbal assurances? > You keep saying that... but you're not listening to the > arguments that its already happening. Yellow Box replacing Carbon != Yellow Box being offered alongside Carbon Apple has thoughtlessly done a lot of stupid things that point to Yellow Box replacing Carbon. We have evidence that that makes Carbon developers nervous. Of course it does. But when have we seen Carbon developers freak out when Yellow Box is being promoted while Carbon is being promoted even more? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mpa@mpacons.ebsi.net (Marco Anglesio) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79n8gg$n6q$1@remarQ.com> <36c6b2e1.2832278@news-server> <SPAMLESSforrest-0802992059160001@term6-18.vta.west.net> <slrn7bvhjc.8v7.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> <SPAMLESSforrest-0902991410340001@term6-22.vta.west.net> Organization: Ninety percent of everything Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy Message-ID: <slrn7c1eaq.eks.mpa@mpacons.ebsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.3 (UNIX) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:41:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:41:55 EDT On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:10:34 -0800, Forrest Cameranesi <SPAMLESSforrest@west.net> wrote: >Ok. According to most open source licences, you do have to provide it free >of charge. But one could have a licence on their product which opens the You must provide source (or access to source) with the binary, yes. >source but still sells the products for charge. So, "Open Source" (or Oh, like the GPL? Nothing in the GPL precludes selling the product; you just have to include the source code or access to it. Hence, Open Source Software. marco -- ,-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. > Marco Anglesio | Listen: we are on Earth to fart around. < > mpa@the-wire.com | Don't let anyone tell you any different. < > http://www.the-wire.com/~mpa | --Kurt Vonnegut < `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:40:44 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <79qe05$nhs$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <79d4t8$1fq$1@plo.sierra.com> <joe.ragosta-0502990835010001@wil135.dol.net> <bholderness-0502991528110001@207-172-116-151.s24.as3.dwt.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 1999 22:48:37 GMT WIlliam Holderness wrote in message ... >Malmarose land is kinda like Teletubbie land, in that logic....Er, well... >it just dosn't exist! > >Does that make it a little clearer Joe? Logic says that if you spend $7,500 on a single system, you should get quality components all around, and shouldn't have to go elsewhere to get something so basic as a quality mouse and keyboard. Even spending $1599 you should get a quality mouse and keyboard.
From: "Earl Malmrose" <earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:42:33 -0800 Organization: Sierra On-Line, Inc. Message-ID: <79qe3j$nnb$1@plo.sierra.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <atticus-0502991938530001@user-38lc977.dialup.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 1999 22:50:27 GMT Andy Walton wrote in message ... >And I'm not sure, but I think the Mac's got 32-bit sound. Nope.
From: FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Where NeXT? Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:38:49 -0700 Organization: Univ of Colorado, Boulder Message-ID: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> Just out of curiosity, could anyone give me a feel for where most of the NeXT users migrating? (and any reasons if possible) Are people moving to OSX? Over to NT? Unix/Linux? (Be?) I know several people who are moving to NT because they spent the last several years running NeXT on PC and don't want to move hardware platforms (again). Many of the people that I've met who were die-hard NeXT users aren't moving to OSX, which puzzles me a bit. Thanks for any responses. -jeff
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: 12 Feb 1999 08:42:29 +0100 Organization: The Computer Society at Lund Message-ID: <7a0m15$hcp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-User: cb In article <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com>, Oberon <oberon@brltd.com> wrote: >You can't netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server. Mac OS 8.5 >doesn't run on NeXT hardware and that's what Mac OS X server netboots >clients into. Um, I suspect the truth is rather remarkably different. You see, black NeXT machines boot using standard Unix protocols - bootp and friends, I beleive - and servers for those can certainly run on Mac OS X Server, since it includes a (BSD) Unix personality. You see, as long as both parties speak the same (standardized) protocols - such as bootp, dhcp, rarp, tftp, nfs - the exact types of client and server don't really matter. While I've never involved a NeXT machine in these proceedings myself, I can personally attest to the fact that you can netboot a Personal DECstation 5000/20 to run OpenBSD 2.3, from a server running Red Hat Linux 5.0 on Intel; or from a Sun SPARCstation 1 running NetBSD; and you can netboot Sun SPARCstations to run NetBSD from the Linux machine ... etc etc. What you need is, of course, the correct data on the server - a suitable kernel for instance - which you then send to the client on request. The client gets its IP address, and that of the server, through bootp, so you'd need to set up that, too. All in all, it's a few things you need to set up (bootp, tftp, probably nfs as well), but you can do that under any Unix system; and once they're set up, everything should work, regardless of the server & client platforms. A more detailed description of the process used in NEXTSTEP can be found at <http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers/HTMLFiles/2662.htmld/2662.html> and this _should_ apply to OPENSTEP/Mach as well. > >-O > > >> In article <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Mitchell Allen" >> <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> wrote: >> >> >> > Is it possible to netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server? I have >> > a copy of the Rhapsody DR release and I never tried this, but since there is >> > so much NeXT code in there, I suspected it would work. >> > >> > Anyone have any ideas? >> > >> > Mitch >> > -- >> > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Oberon >"Anyone who has begun to think places some portion of the world >in jeopardy." -- John Dewey Best regards // Christian Brunschen
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:25:40 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a0ohu$klh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79ks6l$mk3$1@pump1.york.ac.uk> <19990207172711.23949.00001382@ng-ch1.aol.com> <79lpji$5kc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0722$le9$1@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au> In article <7a0722$le9$1@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au>, "Timothy Priest" <timothy.priest@dsto.defence.gov.au> wrote: > > > ---------- > In article <79lpji$5kc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com > wrote: > > > As for the cost - in 1994 I paid AUS$1900 for a PPC Native Quark & $1200 for > > Photoshop. The AUS$1400 Apple has announced for OS X Server doesn't seem too > > bad by comparison. > > Where did you hear 1400. I heard 1600 at the summer update. From the Apple > reps in big splashy ink. > > Tim Priest > > Sorry, i can't remember where I heard it - it may have been at apple.com.au or in a press article. Big deal $200 difference, its still cheaper than Quark - who wanted $800 just for an upgrade to 4.0 from 3.32 or Adobe who refused to ship me my 3.01-3.04 free upgrade (which i was entitled to and needed for my graphics tablet) because 4.0 had just been released and therefore the earliest thing they could ship is 3.5, which I was advised they were more than happy to SELL to me. Considering the only reason i didnt get the upgrade in the first place was that they forgot to send it to me. Frankly ridding myself of these two pathetic companies and their financial lusts is more than worth the cost of OSX Server and yellow based replacements for image processing and DTP. RAX. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 12 Feb 1999 08:17:44 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/11/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > When Mac OS X Server was announced and Steve made the > mistake of not putting Blue Box on the slides.. they > freaked hugely. > >Of course they did; not showing the Blue Box cast doubt on it's >presence in Mac OS X Server. Not any reasonable amount of doubt. And certainly nothing worth the BS that was spewed. They freaked in this case because Carbon/Mac OS wasn't mentioned. If YB had actually been mentioned.. then they would have gone 100% balistic.. even though Mac OS still exists on its own platform, on millions of machines. Not that Blue Box is even relevant to this release in any real fashion (considering its focus).. <snip> >We have evidence that that makes Carbon developers nervous. Of >course it does. But when have we seen Carbon developers freak out >when Yellow Box is being promoted while Carbon is being promoted >even more? That is what you're seeing in the above case. Mac OS X Server (a YB platform) was mentioned without mentioning Carbon or Blue Box, and they freaked. Even though they still have a platform with millions of potential users... and VERY STRONG messages of the future of Carbon. And keep in mind that Mac OS X Server is priced way out of the average users reach. This is why Apple is doing what they're doing. That is why it will be Carbon, Carbon, Carbon until Mac OS X ships. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: 12 Feb 1999 08:19:51 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7a0o77$d8a$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com> <7a0m15$hcp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> In-Reply-To: <7a0m15$hcp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> On 02/11/99, Christian Brunschen wrote: >In article <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com>, >Oberon <oberon@brltd.com> wrote: >>You can't netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server. Mac OS 8.5 >>doesn't run on NeXT hardware and that's what Mac OS X server netboots >>clients into. > >Um, I suspect the truth is rather remarkably different. > >You see, black NeXT machines boot using standard Unix protocols - bootp >and friends, I beleive - and servers for those can certainly run on Mac OS >X Server, since it includes a (BSD) Unix personality. Uh.. all this is fine.. but... two points.. - I asked Avie at Expo if it would NetBoot Mac OS X Server.. he said "NO" - None of this would help you with NeXT black hardware. That was a m68K CPU.. this is a PPC CPU. Different architectures. Even IF you could get the beast to transfer the data over.. its not going to run on NeXT processors.. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: These Microsoft tests....are a complete farce. References: <yl3pv7pvezs.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> <36C19FD1.9CDC4368@egg.chips.and.spam.com> From: Robert Nicholson <steffi@shell8.ba.best.com> Date: 10 Feb 1999 11:57:24 -0800 Message-ID: <yl3k8xq6nh7.fsf@shell8.ba.best.com> fungus <spam@egg.chips.and.spam.com> writes: > Guffaw! > > > The new "remade" video has a machine running Windows 3.1 with a > 28.8 modem pitted against against Windows 98 running a 33.3 modem. > That sounds like a fair test to me. > > Microsoft is claiming that the Windows 98 machine is faster at > downloading, and that the *only* difference is that the Windows 98 > machine has the browser integrated into the OS. Heck I'm surprised they had 3.1 why not DOS. Q. how much memory did the Win 3.1 machine on it? > > > > -- > <\___/> > / O O \ > \_____/ FTB.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 11 Feb 99 03:39:36 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Feb11033936@slave.doubleu.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <19990210214436353728@ts2-44.aug.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002992247300001@term6-28.vta.west.net> In-reply-to: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net's message of Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:47:28 -0800 In article <SPAMLESSforrest-1002992247300001@term6-28.vta.west.net>, SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) writes: This thread made me think of something... If someone else is making CHRP motherboards now, and MacOS X is to be based on Mach, couldn't someone just write a driver for Mach for these motherboards, buy a copy of OSX, and install it on a machine based around this? Of course it wouldn't be supported at all, but it could greatly open up the options for cloning. Way Back When (like 2 years ago or so), one evening I was reading this fine group and a bolt from the blue hit me - I knew what Apple's plan was! Apple was not going to release MacOS 8 for CHRP, they were instead going to release Rhapsody for CHRP! So, the cloners were cannibalizing Apple's sales? Well, put them to work as a semi-unwilling marketting arm! Make them sell not only their hardware, but also Rhapsody! Rather than giving cloners MacOS 8, and buying into 5+ years of legacy support, they could get the cloners running their future OS-of-choice, potentially making the segue to Rhapsody that much cleaner. Oh, boy, this idea is so good that there's almost no way that nobody at Apple isn't thinking in the same terms! Well, we all know where _that_ went. Even if Apple decided to go with it, it's far too late, the cloners are gone. Too bad. Given what they seem to be doing with Carbon, it would have been an excellent approach to the cloning issue. [And I really was thinking out the idea with all those !'s in it. It just made TOO DAMNED MUCH SENSE. I wonder if Dejanews goes back far enough to see my original posting on the topic... nope, it doesn't, sigh.] -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: michael.peck@ericsson.com Organization: needs one References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:41:20 GMT In <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> Michael Peck wrote: > Apple couldn't deliver on the open-platform promise _Didn't_. There's a big difference between "didn't" and "couldn't". Apple's actions are clearly deliberate, even if the reasons are mystifying. > but Linux will. The winners write the history books; will Apple and > NeXT be any more than a footnote? I don't know, but while you're predicting the outcome of the future, any tips on which mutuals to buy? Maury
From: Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:20:11 -0500 Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com) Message-ID: <36C4389A.44FA3ECB@lkba.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com> <7a0m15$hcp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <7a0o77$d8a$1@news.digifix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe what Christian is refering to is the theory that, given the standard UNIX protocols, it is possible to boot black NeXT machines which are configured diskless off of the net from a server. The server needs to have the black NeXT machines kernel image and other things need to be setup in this hypothetical network, like NFS, etc. I'd agree, however, that this is different from what the original poster, Mitchell, was asking and to what Oberon and Scott are replying to. Or am I missing something? -- Larry Blische * Consultant/Programmer Desktop Applications : Client/Server : Embedded Systems : Device Drivers : Etc. 6195 Eagles Nest Drive * Jupiter, Florida 33458 USA 561.747.7844 * NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail Welcome! mailto:lkb@lkba.com * resume at http://www.charm.net/~lkb/ Scott Anguish wrote: > On 02/11/99, Christian Brunschen wrote: > >In article <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com>, > >Oberon <oberon@brltd.com> wrote: > >>You can't netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server. Mac OS > 8.5 > >>doesn't run on NeXT hardware and that's what Mac OS X server > netboots > >>clients into. > > > >Um, I suspect the truth is rather remarkably different. > > > >You see, black NeXT machines boot using standard Unix protocols - > bootp > >and friends, I beleive - and servers for those can certainly run on > Mac OS > >X Server, since it includes a (BSD) Unix personality. > > Uh.. all this is fine.. but... two points.. > > - I asked Avie at Expo if it would NetBoot Mac OS X Server.. > he said "NO" > - None of this would help you with NeXT black hardware. That > was a m68K CPU.. this is a PPC CPU. Different architectures. Even IF > you could get the beast to transfer the data over.. its not going to > run on NeXT processors.. > > -- > Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> > Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information > <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: 1050pi@netscape.net (Nelson Gerhardt) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:27:48 GMT Organization: MSI Networks, Inc. (using Airnews.net!) Message-ID: <B0505BC4A0476FC2.0F21D12D73BFB6FE.4954B8163458AFD3@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <BB53DBA61B6E16B6.9EE0499AE947EA0B.89339764DE57F2F5@library-proxy.airnews.net> <slrn7c0bct.4u.mawa@dascomputi.UUCP> Abuse-Reports-To: Report improper postings to abuse at msinets dot com NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library3 NNTP-Posting-Time: Tue Feb 9 19:13:09 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:44:13 +0000, mawarkus@t-online.de (Matthias Warkus) wrote: >It was the Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:03:23 GMT... >..and Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: >> On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:04:09 -0800, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den >> Beste) wrote: >> >> >>If IBM can't help, we're going to have to wait for someone (Sun, 3com, >> >>VAResearch?) to buy Apple and port the upper levels of OSX to Linux >> >>(which could be several years down the road.) >> > >> >Seems like you brought this possibility up before. The idea of someone >> >spending billions of dollars to purchase Apple simply to take their software >> >and GIVE it to the Linux movement is ludicrous. Corporate philanthropy >> >doesn't go that far. >> >> I don't mean "give," I mean "port as opensource." They can still >> charge for it. > >For a corporation, releasing something as free software or giving it >away for free are largely the same thing. > >If the source is open, but it cannot be copied freely, it's not an >open source licence anymore, but an old-fashioned NDA source licence. Ahhh, but what of Sun's open source lisence of Java 2? That's an example of non-freeware opensource. -l: "we make money when you make money..." --- Wanna debate this post, realtime? --> ICQ#: 9393354 * "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED" -- REMcE
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> Message-ID: <WyXw2.349$h3.80541@homer.alpha.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:13:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:13:58 CDT Forrest Cameranesi (SPAMLESSforrest@west.net) wrote: : Apple *couldn't* financially; if they had, they would have gone out of : business. But they *could* technically; if they wanted to, and didn't : worry about going out of business, they could have easilly made CHRP MBs. I would think that CHRP MBs would now be obsolete, having required ISA card slots and not providing for USB and FireWire. Ron
From: rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> Message-ID: <x0Yw2.350$h3.81055@homer.alpha.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:45:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:45:33 CDT Sal Denaro (sal@panix.com) wrote: : So you're saying that there is never a good reason to dump backwards : compatibility? A migration path needs to be supplied. No company is willing to start a mass conversion of systems to a new technology, if it can't back out (except for those willing to buy SAP). : If EOF/EOM can cut down on the time it takes maintain large enterprise : databases systems, and that savings more than offsets the cost of dumping : code that has become more expense to maintain, then this would be a : smart more. Most database systems are small and don't require sophisticated technology. : Yes, and EOF is about producing Objects _without code_ that greatly : simplifies the process of defining business logic, and creating interfaces : to that logic. Code, or at least human and machine readable documentation, is always needed to get a robust system implementation. : I guess if what you want is _lines and lines of code_ RW is the way to go. : If you want to cut down on the time it takes to build and maintain large : databases, EOM/EOF is the way to go. EOM/EOF is probably the right way to go, but it needs to be acceptable to developers. : When you build from a set of 3rd party libs you indubitable end up with : some overlap in those libs (ie, each has a string and set class) The : larger the libs, the greater the scope of the overlap and the greater : the problems that overlap causes. Are you saying that WebObjects and Yellow Box don't allow 3rd party libraries? : The one thing that NeXT did perfectly, was build a great set of low level : generic classes that are easy to use and extend. (Delphi does come close) : When you have all your libs built from the same foundation, adding new : libs is a hell of a lot less work. This might work if we can count on the classes being done right in the first place. Next did change the class library going from NextStep to OpenStep. How can application be kept current with the latest class library without a lot of work? : Sometimes a new approach is needed for progress to occur. Are you suggesting Java? : Huh? Then explain the growing popularity of WO and RAD tools in general. It : looks to me that the Linux (and much of the Unix market) crowd are the only : ones that aren't moving to RAD for App development. Are you saying VB developers are smart and Unix programmers are stupid? :-) Ron
From: cb@bartlet.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: 12 Feb 1999 16:50:56 +0100 Organization: The Computer Society at Lund Message-ID: <7a1il0$el8$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com> <7a0m15$hcp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <7a0o77$d8a$1@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-User: cb In article <7a0o77$d8a$1@news.digifix.com>, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: >On 02/11/99, Christian Brunschen wrote: >>In article <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com>, >>Oberon <oberon@brltd.com> wrote: >>>You can't netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server. Mac OS >8.5 >>>doesn't run on NeXT hardware and that's what Mac OS X server >netboots >>>clients into. >> >>Um, I suspect the truth is rather remarkably different. >> >>You see, black NeXT machines boot using standard Unix protocols - >bootp >>and friends, I beleive - and servers for those can certainly run on >Mac OS >>X Server, since it includes a (BSD) Unix personality. > > Uh.. all this is fine.. but... two points.. > > - I asked Avie at Expo if it would NetBoot Mac OS X Server.. >he said "NO" > - None of this would help you with NeXT black hardware. That >was a m68K CPU.. this is a PPC CPU. Different architectures. Even IF >you could get the beast to transfer the data over.. its not going to >run on NeXT processors.. Um, I may have misunderstood the question ... obviously, black NeXT hardware will not run Mac OS X Server. What I was alluding to was that a PowerMac running Mac OS X Server might well be able to let black NeXT machines netboot NEXTSTEP or OPENSTEP from the MacOS X Server machine. Or Linux if that ever gets to run properly. > >-- >Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> >Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information ><URL:http://www.stepwise.com> > // Christian Brunschen
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:03:17 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> In article <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com>, sal@panix.com wrote: > On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:32:38 GMT, > So you're saying that there is never a good reason to dump backwards > compatibility? I said what I said, your attempts to spin it notwithstanding. WebObjects forces the developer to lose code-compatibility, which is unacceptable in many or most situations. This makes WebObjects, itself, unacceptable, save for high-profile, brand-new Web-based setups, such as marketing sites and online retail. Even in these situations the online retail portion may necessarily be the smallest part of a large retail operation, in which case the enterprise developer is scarcely disposed to dump the larger system in favor of a product called "WebObjects". > If EOF/EOM can cut down on the time it takes maintain large enterprise > databases systems, and that savings more than offsets the cost of dumping > code that has become more expense to maintain, then this would be a > smart more. That would be just short of obvious. The likelihood of such a thing, on the other hand, I will leave up to the reader as an exercise. > I guess if what you want is _lines and lines of code_ RW is the way to go. Large programming projects generally consist of "lines and lines of code". When you get there, you'll see what I mean. [cut] > No it doesn't fit in well. > > Every large C++ system I've seen where a new 3rd party lib was added after > the code was started suffers from what I call "Object Disorienting > Programming" Was this going to be about EOF and RogueWave, or a dissertation on the pathologies of some programming projects in the abstract? Noting the pathologies of software development is *not* appropriate to this discussion. > When you build from a set of 3rd party libs you indubitable end up with > some overlap in those libs (ie, each has a string and set class) The > larger the libs, the greater the scope of the overlap and the greater > the problems that overlap causes. ...so? If you like, use RogueWave's collection classes in your code to solve this problem. If you have existing collection classes and feel that the above is symptomatic of a serious problem, retrofit. If you don't feel it's necessary, leave it as it is. The issue of code-level integration has a more complex answer than "Buy WebObjects", which is why fewer and fewer people listen to anything Apple says. > Ok, now you have your DB class lib, your template lib (for things like > sets, dictionaries, et al) and your UI lib for GUI work. So what do > your programmers do? You really can't build a superset of the libs, > since the overlapping objects won't be strictly similar. You can't > build a strict subset since the overlap is in the very common classes, > and the reason you bought the libs was for the higher level stuff. No > one ever gets this right, though some get it less wrong than others. What about using the acquired libs for new development? Does that seem a bit short of obvious? > They build a new classlib derived from those parent libs with the goal of > providing more useful Objects. Well, since the three libs aren't built > from the same base objects, they don't quite fit in. So you need a few > "special cases" here and there while the App grows. The more the App grows, > the more "special cases" you need. I get the sense that your company does nothing but sit around and build "libs" all day. At any rate, you're not going to be able to boost WebObjects by remembering for us all of the problematic C++ projects you've worked on. It doesn't boost your credibility, and it doesn't help WebObjects. Enterprise systems are dependent on a lot of existing, custom code. DBTools.h++ is designed to make it as easy as possible to build new systems without sacrificing the old code completely. [cut] > I've seen a ton of C++ Apps follow this progression. The first things I do > when I get called in on an App like this is count the number of String > classes. The record so far was eight. I really can't believe this gets you so exercised. What C++ programmer hasn't experience the inevitable object duplication that exists in large projects? Is this a problem that goes away when you use Objective-C, perhaps? Spare me the gory details of your career, please, I have one of my own. Using a product like DBTools.h++ provides the solution to these duplication problems if you're willing to use it: a common set of object factories that discourage (not encourage) this duplication problem. > After a while the only people you can > get to work on it are consultants who don't care about the politics involved > with the project as long as the checks clear. This goes even further afield. > The one thing that NeXT did perfectly, was build a great set of low level > generic classes that are easy to use and extend. (Delphi does come close) > When you have all your libs built from the same foundation, adding new > libs is a hell of a lot less work. RogueWave does the same thing. Group hug. Now back to the original question...what are you going to do about old code? > Sometimes a new approach is needed for progress to occur. Take it to a self-help seminar. Enterprises only hear that from salesmen and Dionne Warwick. Which are you? > Huh? Then explain the growing popularity of WO and RAD tools in general. It > looks to me that the Linux (and much of the Unix market) crowd are the only > ones that aren't moving to RAD for App development. That's probably because the Unix market is the one that's been sitting here doing all the work and writing all of the code while the rest of you dreamt of sugar plums and WebObjects. In walks the NeXT crowd and they want to know why everyone hasn't adopted the New Big Thing. MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: kms@norfolk-county.com (K. Sebring) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:56:36 -0500 Organization: I say screw it! Message-ID: <kms-0902991956370001@336dialup185.ncounty.net> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> In article <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: >On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:41:13 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >>In article <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us>, >>rpeterson@globaldialog.com wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:47 -0500, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) >>> wrote: >>> >>> >If you want a version that allows 50 transactions per second or something >>> >like that, get Mac OS X Server. It's $999. >>> >>> I believe it allows 50 transactions per minute. >>> >> >>Oops. I think you're right. >> >>Of course, lots and lots of people would be ecstatic with anything >>approaching 5 transactions per minute--much less 50. > > 50 TPM is actually a quite trivial load. Is this > a product geared towards the MS Access crowd or > real dbas and webmasters? MacOSX Server costs $999. WebObjects 4.0 (base?) for Windows NT costs $1499. Do the math. If you still can't figure out why OSX Server has a 50 TPM limit on WebObjects, you're hopeless. -- ----------------------- kms@norfolk-county.com kmsmac on AIM ICQ #9251405
From: Mike Paquette <mpaque@ncal.verio.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:46:10 -0800 Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16 Message-ID: <36C468E3.B4BC2ACA@ncal.verio.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> <oberon-1102992010280001@sji-ca13-148.ix.netcom.com> <7a0m15$hcp$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <7a0o77$d8a$1@news.digifix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *SIGH* Mac OS X Server, as shipped, won't netboot a NeXT machine. The only netboot configuration officially supported and shipped is to netboot a Mac with Mac OS 8.5. That said, I'd like to point out that NeXT hardware netboots using standard protocols including bootp, arp, and tftp, supported in the boot ROM. One can set up any server to vend a NeXT kernel binary on bootp request, and NFS export a partition containing a NeXT root. One can specify the kernel and appropriate NFS exported root and swapfile for a given netboot machine in NetInfo. There's some info on doing this in the old System Admin book, and at http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers. One can run bootp, arp, and tftp services on Mac OS X Server. There aren't any NeXTStep binaries on the system as shipped. There's no SetupAssistant checkoff box to netboot black hardware. This doesn't mean that there's a technical obstacle to making it work. Just don't call Apple's support line and ask for help! >From personal experience, I've netbooted experimental Mach environments on 8500 series systems using a 25 MHz NeXT Cube as the bootp and NFS server. The server and client do not have to be of the same architecture, or binary compatible. The server(s) just needs to export an appropriate kernel and filesystems. Mike Paquette
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 12 Feb 99 13:24:32 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2E9DC13-3CF3A@206.165.43.43> References: <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Sal Denaro <sal@panix.com> said: > >I think that the only thing holding Apple back from increasing market >share was the lack of a compelling product; not the lack of an "Open >Standard" like CHRP. Beige boxes from companies no one has heard of >didn't compel anyone to buy a Mac; unlike the iMac. Actually, 'twas the lack of TV advertising of products that were available at the time that the ads appeared, I think... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory L. Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 12 Feb 1999 20:25:28 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Message-ID: <7a22no$ba8$1@jetsam.uits.indiana.edu> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> <WyXw2.349$h3.80541@homer.alpha.net> <36C48820.2EAF545C@home.com> In article <36C48820.2EAF545C@home.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari=AE?= <arikounavis@home.com> wrote: >Hey Ron, take a guess at why specs have version numbers. > >ari > >Ron Peterson wrote: > >> Forrest Cameranesi (SPAMLESSforrest@west.net) wrote: >> : Apple *couldn't* financially; if they had, they would have gone out of >> : business. But they *could* technically; if they wanted to, and didn't >> : worry about going out of business, they could have easilly made CHRP MBs. >> >> I would think that CHRP MBs would now be obsolete, having required >> ISA card slots and not providing for USB and FireWire. >> >> Ron I haven't been paying attention to the beginning of the thread so I'm kind of in suspense here... Are CHRP and/or PReP compliant motherboards available? Where and how much, and what can run on them?
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:21:29 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36C49B59.54304EEE@ericsson.com> References: <79tjgp$59n$2@news.panix.com> <B2E9DC13-3CF3A@206.165.43.43> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lawson English wrote: > Actually, 'twas the lack of TV advertising of products that were available > at the time that the ads appeared, I think... Excellent point. Does anyone remember what Apple spent in 1998 advertising *one single product* (the iMac)? I thought it was around $60 million, or roughly 60% of the entire (inflated) price Apple paid for Power Computing. MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:55:37 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a280k$ufu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com wrote: > In article <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com>, > sal@panix.com wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:32:38 GMT, >> So you're saying that there is never a good reason to dump backwards >> compatibility? > > I said what I said, your attempts to spin it notwithstanding. WebObjects > forces the developer to lose code-compatibility, which is unacceptable in > many or most situations. Why are you forced to lose code-compatibility? Lets say, just for an example, you have a database with some BLOBs in it (images, sound data, whatever-- just some format the DB does not natively support), and you've got a set of routines written in C or C++ to manipulate their contents. Why can't you continue to use that code? > This makes WebObjects, itself, unacceptable, save > for high-profile, brand-new Web-based setups, such as marketing sites and > online retail. WebObjects is being used for a lot more than just online commerce, although it's well suited for that sort of role. > Even in these situations the online retail portion may necessarily be the > smallest part of a large retail operation, "may necessarily be"? What's that supposed to mean? >> If EOF/EOM can cut down on the time it takes maintain large enterprise >> databases systems, and that savings more than offsets the cost of dumping >> code that has become more expense to maintain, then this would be a >> smart more. > > That would be just short of obvious. The likelihood of such a thing, on the > other hand, I will leave up to the reader as an exercise. Exactly. While the third-party marketplace for YB shrinkwrap is not a happy place to be in, WOF development is doing very well. [ ... ] >> I've seen a ton of C++ Apps follow this progression. The first things I do >> when I get called in on an App like this is count the number of String >> classes. The record so far was eight. > > I really can't believe this gets you so exercised. What C++ programmer hasn't > experience the inevitable object duplication that exists in large projects? Doesn't that contradict one of the primary reasons to use OO? Shouldn't we question an environment where code reuse is routinely expected not to occur? > Is this a problem that goes away when you use Objective-C, perhaps? Largely, yes. Pity the final keyword on things like java.lang.string causes problems for code reuse in that language.... -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux mail apps for ex-Mail.app user? Date: 10 Feb 1999 01:29:08 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <36c083a1.0@news.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <19990209202908.28772.00001059@ng-ch1.aol.com> Take a look at <www.postilion.org> William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:00:19 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36C4B283.90477227@ericsson.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a280k$ufu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Swiger wrote: > Why are you forced to lose code-compatibility? You're not. The question was in the context of Sal's implicit assertion that at times it is good to lose code-compatibility. The inference I drew is that the hypothetical developer has decided to "dump backwards compatibility" as a result of a move to WebObjects. I can only respond to what's posted in the context of what's posted. [cut] > "may necessarily be"? What's that supposed to mean? Excuse me? I'm not a language tutor. [cut] > > I really can't believe this gets you so exercised. What C++ programmer hasn't > > experience the inevitable object duplication that exists in large projects? > > Doesn't that contradict one of the primary reasons to use OO? Shouldn't we > question an environment where code reuse is routinely expected not to occur? I would encourage you to do so, but only because, as a good student of metrics, you will surely know that the real question is not "is code reuse expected not to occur?", but rather, "how much code reuse is expected to occur?", with comparative analysis following the examination. The fact that you asked the former I will attribute to USENET miscommunication; I know that you know better than to load your analyses with so many implicit assumptions. > > Is this a problem that goes away when you use Objective-C, perhaps? > > Largely, yes. Pity the final keyword on things like java.lang.string causes > problems for code reuse in that language.... Whatever that means. MJP
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 13 Feb 1999 02:07:37 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7c9nj9.lp1.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lu0n$92c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79m3ol$cvn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 1999 02:07:37 GMT quinlan@intergate.bc.ca <quinlan@intergate.bc.ca> wrote: : :I'm not sure what you mean here. From the user's point of view, the only :difference between a YellowBox and a Carbon finder is that a YellowBox finder :should have some of the nicer behaviours common to YB applications (such as :windows that can still be moved even when the application is busy). The :appearance could be identical. And that's even assuming that the "YB facilities" that are automagically provided to YB apps couldn't be manually activated even in Carbon apps. Moving windows will be a property of the underlying OS not YB vs Carbon. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <36C09C4D.DE4D3929@oaai.com> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc. References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> < Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:36:29 GMT jedi wrote: > On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:41:13 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: > >In article <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us>, > >rpeterson@globaldialog.com wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:47 -0500, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) > >> wrote: > >> > >> >If you want a version that allows 50 transactions per second or something > >> >like that, get Mac OS X Server. It's $999. > >> > >> I believe it allows 50 transactions per minute. > >> > > > >Oops. I think you're right. > > > >Of course, lots and lots of people would be ecstatic with anything > >approaching 5 transactions per minute--much less 50. > > 50 TPM is actually a quite trivial load. Is this > a product geared towards the MS Access crowd or > real dbas and webmasters? The out-of-the-box OSX Server package is geared towards small workgroups as a WebObjects server. You could pay extra bucks and get the unlimited xactions version (25K) if you intend to run news.com off of it or something :-) Mark
From: "Jonathan Haddad" <leperkuhn@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:18:02 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Haddad Enterprises Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <79qmmq$h9f$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >> >>Oops. I think you're right. >> >>Of course, lots and lots of people would be ecstatic with anything >>approaching 5 transactions per minute--much less 50. > > 50 TPM is actually a quite trivial load. Is this > a product geared towards the MS Access crowd or > real dbas and webmasters? If someone is serious, they can buy WebObjects. Not to tough. -- Jon Haddad leperkuhn@earthlink.net
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:07:09 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> In article <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > They freaked in this case because Carbon/Mac OS wasn't > mentioned. If YB had actually been mentioned.. then they would have > gone 100% balistic.. even though Mac OS still exists on its own > platform, on millions of machines. I'm not sure why you don't understand this behavior. > Not that Blue Box is even relevant to this release in any real > fashion (considering its focus).. Agreed. > Mac OS X Server (a YB platform) was mentioned without > mentioning Carbon or Blue Box, and they freaked. Even though they > still have a platform with millions of potential users... and VERY > STRONG messages of the future of Carbon. And keep in mind that Mac OS > X Server is priced way out of the average users reach. As I recall, the price point was not set at this point so Mac OS developers had no way of predicting how many Mac OS Server (was it called that then?) sales there were going to be. > This is why Apple is doing what they're doing. > > That is why it will be Carbon, Carbon, Carbon until Mac OS X > ships. I agree that Apple should be shouting Carbon to everyone who will listen but that doesn't mean that they can't mention YellowBox without wispering. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:13:36 GMT Organization: ICX Online, Inc. Message-ID: <36c51f88.55527006@news.icx.net> References: <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <36C4927F.31BFC6EB@psca.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 1999 07:11:16 GMT "Marc J. Driftmeyer" <mdrift@psca.com> wrote: >Having worked for both NeXT Software Inc and Apple Computer Inc I can >say the following with confidence: Geez. No wonder we are so confused. You ramble on indignantly about internal Apple stuff that "we the general public" have no clue about. How are we supposed to know what Apple is using for internal development? If they are using ObjC and Yellow Box, then what's with the conflicting statements reported in the group regarding the long-term support of ObjC and YB? Java and ObjC have very different syntax, eh? If ObjC is not supported, then any YB developer that uses it now will pay later to convert their entire code base to Java. Furthermore, there are YB-based businesses already trying to "make a profit" and are apparently being squashed by Apple. Apple is doing very little to facilitate their survival in either a developer support or marketing role by most reports. Also by your arguments, I'd be fool to use anything but the Carbon API since the big boys support it -- and the only thing we can count on is what the big boys demand. Do you really think the big boys will rewrite their apps in YB after the successful transition to Carbon? I will pay attention to actions rather than your confident statements. Michael McCulloch
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 13 Feb 1999 07:25:31 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/12/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com>, > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > >> They freaked in this case because Carbon/Mac OS wasn't >> mentioned. If YB had actually been mentioned.. then they would have >> gone 100% balistic.. even though Mac OS still exists on its own >> platform, on millions of machines. > >I'm not sure why you don't understand this behavior. > Because plain and simple Common Sense should have told them that it was there. Instead they ran DIRECTLY to the press to piss about it. > >> Mac OS X Server (a YB platform) was mentioned without >> mentioning Carbon or Blue Box, and they freaked. Even though they >> still have a platform with millions of potential users... and VERY >> STRONG messages of the future of Carbon. And keep in mind that Mac OS >> X Server is priced way out of the average users reach. > >As I recall, the price point was not set at this point so Mac OS developers >had no way of predicting how many Mac OS Server (was it called that then?) >sales there were going to be. > The price point was set when the MacWeek article ran. And none of this changes the fact that these Mac OS developers freaked when they assumed that Blue Box wasn't there, yet they still have the vast majority of the installed Mac base to themselves to sell to. Nor does it address the fact that at this point it was thought that Mac OS X Server was a single release product. WHy should they freak? But they did. >> This is why Apple is doing what they're doing. >> >> That is why it will be Carbon, Carbon, Carbon until Mac OS X >> ships. > >I agree that Apple should be shouting Carbon to everyone who will listen but >that doesn't mean that they can't mention YellowBox without wispering. > They are, but they have no choice but to whisper due to the Mac OS developers. http://www.apple.com/developer/macosx Front page on the Mac OS X site -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: 12 Feb 1999 22:17:37 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m31zjv2dri.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (Lars Tr=E4ger) writes: -> Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? No. The kernel source provides an emulator if you don't have the FPU. = -- = David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail When will Altoids be available in 'extra strength'?
From: David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: 12 Feb 1999 21:47:37 -0500 Organization: Geeks For Microsoft Free Computing Sender: david@solo.david-steuber.com Message-ID: <m34sor2f5i.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Original-Sender: Like, a human at a computer terminal hunters@thunder.indstate.edu writes: -> Now I happen to agree with you completely on this, so I was wondering, what -> reason would IBM have in supporting Linux? (Which is free.) IBM Support Contract == $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ -- David Steuber http://www.david-steuber.com s/trashcan/david/ to reply by mail When will Altoids be available in 'extra strength'?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick) Subject: Re: Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! Message-ID: <1999Feb12.173446.5254@il.us.swissbank.com> Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator) Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division References: <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:34:46 GMT In article <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: > Naturally a company is permitted to keep cash in order to pay bills, > but as you note it is illegal to use some of the cash to coverup > shortfalls in reported operating earnings. The intent is that a > public company must provide accurate information about the current > performance of the business, and that kind of a slushfund goes against > that. > > If companies didn't have such cash or credit line, then they'd be > bankrupt at their first quarterly loss. The requirements (from the SEC) regard reporting earnings, and has little to do with addressing what you do with the money or profit after you've reported it. Certainly, if a company brings in $1,000,000 a month and only has $100,000 in expenses, it gets to keep the $900,000 -- there's no requirement that prevents them from "saving" that money. However, if they are a publicly held company, they must REPORT that money as well. And, if the same month the following year shows revenue of $150,000 against expenses of $100,000, they have to report that as well. What Microsoft is allegedly in trouble for is not reporting earnings, and truly "sticking them under a mattress" to report later, when real earnings were not so good. This makes a cyclical business look more stable than it's direct competitors, being able to weather the cycles without substantial ups and downs, making the company more attractive to buyers (which is what, *in theory*, the SEC is in the business to protect...) -- Michael Humphries-Dolnick "If opinions are expressed in this communication, those opinions may not represent those of my employer."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick) Subject: Re: Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! Message-ID: <1999Feb12.173519.5315@il.us.swissbank.com> Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator) Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division References: <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:35:19 GMT In article <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: > Naturally a company is permitted to keep cash in order to pay bills, > but as you note it is illegal to use some of the cash to coverup > shortfalls in reported operating earnings. The intent is that a > public company must provide accurate information about the current > performance of the business, and that kind of a slushfund goes against > that. > > If companies didn't have such cash or credit line, then they'd be > bankrupt at their first quarterly loss. The requirements (from the SEC) regard reporting earnings, and has little to do with addressing what you do with the money or profit after you've reported it. Certainly, if a company brings in $1,000,000 a month and only has $100,000 in expenses, it gets to keep the $900,000 -- there's no requirement that prevents them from "saving" that money. However, if they are a publicly held company, they must REPORT that money as well. And, if the same month the following year shows revenue of $150,000 against expenses of $100,000, they have to report that as well. What Microsoft is allegedly in trouble for is not reporting earnings, and truly "sticking them under a mattress" to report later, when real earnings were not so good. This makes a cyclical business look more stable than it's direct competitors, being able to weather the cycles without substantial ups and downs, making the company more attractive to buyers (which is what, *in theory*, the SEC is in the business to protect...) -- Michael Humphries-Dolnick "If opinions are expressed in this communication, those opinions may not represent those of my employer."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick) Subject: Re: Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! Message-ID: <1999Feb12.183342.5628@il.us.swissbank.com> Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator) Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division References: <1999Feb12.173519.5315@il.us.swissbank.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:33:42 GMT In article <1999Feb12.173519.5315@il.us.swissbank.com> Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick) writes: Sorry, folks, for the previous multiple postings. My NewsGrazer freaked out with the wierd subject line.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: Michael_Humphries-Dolnick.nospam@wdr.com (Michael Humphries-Dolnick) Subject: Re: Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?==?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?==?x-user-defined?Q?=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Happy 15th Birthday - Macintosh! =?x-user-defined?Q?=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60=B7=2E=B8=B8=2E=B7=B4=AF=60?= Message-ID: <1999Feb12.173345.5197@il.us.swissbank.com> Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator) Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division References: <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:33:45 GMT In article <slrn7bhg80.qkd.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: > Naturally a company is permitted to keep cash in order to pay bills, > but as you note it is illegal to use some of the cash to coverup > shortfalls in reported operating earnings. The intent is that a > public company must provide accurate information about the current > performance of the business, and that kind of a slushfund goes against > that. > > If companies didn't have such cash or credit line, then they'd be > bankrupt at their first quarterly loss. The requirements (from the SEC) regard reporting earnings, and has little to do with addressing what you do with the money or profit after you've reported it. Certainly, if a company brings in $1,000,000 a month and only has $100,000 in expenses, it gets to keep the $900,000 -- there's no requirement that prevents them from "saving" that money. However, if they are a publicly held company, they must REPORT that money as well. And, if the same month the following year shows revenue of $150,000 against expenses of $100,000, they have to report that as well. What Microsoft is allegedly in trouble for is not reporting earnings, and truly "sticking them under a mattress" to report later, when real earnings were not so good. This makes a cyclical business look more stable than it's direct competitors, being able to weather the cycles without substantial ups and downs, making the company more attractive to buyers (which is what, *in theory*, the SEC is in the business to protect...) -- Michael Humphries-Dolnick "If opinions are expressed in this communication, those opinions may not represent those of my employer."
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 13 Feb 1999 11:05:22 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <7a3m9i$ikd$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) wrote: >Just out of curiosity, could anyone give me a feel for where most of >the NeXT users migrating? (and any reasons if possible) > >Are people moving to OSX? Over to NT? Unix/Linux? (Be?) I know several >people who are moving to NT because they spent the last several years >running NeXT on PC and don't want to move hardware platforms (again). >Many of the people that I've met who were die-hard NeXT users aren't >moving to OSX, which puzzles me a bit. > You are referring to _users_. So I'm a user, and I'm currently _not_ migrating. Why should I? OpenStep 4.2 runs reliable. I have everything to work, the machine (AMD 200) is fast enough and I don't need Jave. I do, however do multibooting into Linux and Windows for 1 reasons: - accessing my bank account, where Java is used (on Linux) - accessing somw word documents from others (vary rare, on Linux) - doing CD burning (on Windows, that the only thing where I need it!) However the new Apple technologies sound promising. I'm waiting for the NeXT-Generation G3s when the prices for current Macs will drop and probably buy one. FireWire and Quicktime are very interesting to me. I however wouldn't ever want to run MacOS 8.x again. People I know aren't moving to NT, they are moving to Linux. Then, I'm in Germany, and the people here (as far as I noticed from the news and other sources) are more commited to Linux than in the states ... On Linux you get everything for free. Including Windows Office compatibility (StarOffice). I believe the time for a non-Unix OS like NT or Windows xx(xx) are over. You mentioned Be, too. I remember one statement about Be in this newsgroup, but I lost the source. The statement was like this: Be's advanced technologies must have been looking to MacOS users/devs like the promised land, for NeXT users it's just another kind of a step backwards. This holds true for me, too. C++, the core language of the OS, ist just outdated and the biggeste mistake of the OS. Then I also watched the different developer releases and the news around it. I had to notice, that the Be developers are very open and were borrowing a lot of technologies from other systems, like the Amiga. Then however, they didn't IMHO did think too much about their class-design and so you got a bunch of classes which are sometimes not too designed very well. Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Message-ID: <petrich-1302990331400001@c355117-a.lvrmr1.sfba.home.com> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> <m31zjv2dri.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:27:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:27:33 PDT Organization: @Home Network I would like to ask: what would be the point? Apple will be having Mach and BSD to go with it, and at this stage of development, the Yellow Box and the MacOS support would have to be rewritten to use the Linux kernel. An alternative is to make MacOS X Linux-compatible with some appropriate add-ons, as has been done with some versions of BSD. One could then run one's favorite LinuxPPC binaries on MacOS X. -- Loren Petrich petrich@netcom.com Happiness is a fast Macintosh And a fast train
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 9 Feb 99 20:57:28 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <B2E651C0-10EBB@208.200.110.174> References: <79qe3j$nnb$1@plo.sierra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.qx.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.qx.net/comp.sys.next.marketplace On Tue, Feb 9, 1999 5:42 PM, Earl Malmrose <mailto:earl.malmrose@nospam.sierra.com> wrote: >Andy Walton wrote in message ... >>And I'm not sure, but I think the Mac's got 32-bit sound. > >Nope. > Does anybody? High end professional digital audio production equipment uses 24-bit. Confused with graphics perhaps? scott
From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Message-ID: <jinx6568-0902991908420001@arc2a23.bf.sover.net> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> Organization: Airwindows NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:04:27 EDT Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:08:42 -0500 In article <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet>, jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) wrote: >On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:41:13 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: >>In article <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us>, >>rpeterson@globaldialog.com wrote: >>> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:47 -0500, joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta) >>> wrote: >>> >If you want a version that allows 50 transactions per second or something >>> >like that, get Mac OS X Server. It's $999. >>> I believe it allows 50 transactions per minute. >>Oops. I think you're right. >>Of course, lots and lots of people would be ecstatic with anything >>approaching 5 transactions per minute--much less 50. > 50 TPM is actually a quite trivial load. Is this > a product geared towards the MS Access crowd or > real dbas and webmasters? The former, I think. Nobody's suggesting that cnet is gonna buy MacOSX Server and run news.com off it, or anything. If anything, this is more like a free (ha!) sample: no reason you should even get 50 transactions a minute worth of a fifty grand package, except that it's advertising, that many people can use that level, and that maybe some of them will go for the full version. Chris Johnson @airwindows.com chrisj
From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:56:29 +0100 Organization: pv Message-ID: <1dn65xg.8woh6u1bffyw8N@[192.168.0.2]> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > WHy should they > freak? But they did. Many are not in any way interested in a Macintosh "server" OS, but in a better (PM/PMT) Mac OS[*]. Prior to MacWorld many of those expected/hoped that the "server" part of the name was to keep interest in the early release of Mac OS X ( Mac OS X Server) low. An early release, not for general consumption. Those hoped that Mac OS X Server would still be good enough to be a better desktop OS than old Mac OS 8.x. This use requires blue box. They were wrong. Then they announced the price. But having the true meaning of the "server" part of the name sink in took a bit of time for some. Apple really meant "server". Hands off! In a server that is not used as a personal computer, bluebox is of course much less important (as is a server OS for most). - lars [*] If it also has good devtools and a RAD dev environment (perhaps called YB), so much the better, but secondary to PM/PMT (the reason for the NeXT acquisition) in Mac OS. The core of Mac OS is what concerns most Mac OS developers. YB is so far nothing but a curiosity and certainly not a threat. -- Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se - Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
From: raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:02:44 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79qpbv$d14$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lu0n$92c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79m3ol$cvn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79od26$9l8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79ooho$ijt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <79ooho$ijt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > In article <79od26$9l8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > > > Simply that there might be some short term savings and ease of transition by > > having the initial OS X interface being a carbon app so the very same finder > > app would run on both OS X and OS 8.x systems. > > This is possible if Apple is planning on releasing new versions of the Mac OS, > without YellowBox support, with significant finder changes, after Mac OS X is > released. > Since all indications are that there will be no yellow for Mac OS (this seemed to disappear a while back) and that there are still at least 2 revisions of Mac OS to go, keeping 1 carbon finder until after they are released makes a type of sence.... RAX. -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Sound capabilities Date: 13 Feb 1999 15:46:52 GMT Organization: [posted via] Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany) Distribution: world Message-ID: <7a46pc$mjo$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jinx6568-0902991908420001@arc2a23.bf.sover.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, could somebody please explain to me, which sound capabilities the new G3 models offer (what quality, what connectors, tech.specs.) and whether they are supported under MacOS-X Server? I don't find anything about sound mentioned anywhere. Or maybe this does imply, that you need to by additional hardware to make the beast "beep", which I don't believe. Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:32:33 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <19990212165935.05296.00000701@ng23.aol.com> Message-ID: <19990213123233.20954.00001624@ng-fi1.aol.com> Actually, I spoke too soon. The stupid thing crashed (The application Finder has unexpectedly quit) when I went to shut it down yesterday. ::bah:: What is so impossible about making a system work as well as my NeXT Cube has for years now? William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:37:32 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a4gpc$ns4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> In article <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > Because plain and simple Common Sense should have told them > that it was there. Instead they ran DIRECTLY to the press to piss > about it. Apple should have told them everything immediately. Assuming that other people have common sense is usually a stupid move. > The price point was set when the MacWeek article ran. But was it when developers got the news? > And none of this changes the fact that these Mac OS developers > freaked when they assumed that Blue Box wasn't there, yet they still > have the vast majority of the installed Mac base to themselves to sell > to. Nor does it address the fact that at this point it was thought > that Mac OS X Server was a single release product. WHy should they > freak? But they did. Current installed base is important but most developers don't like a shrinking installed base. Without Blue Box or Carbon support, Mac OS X * has the potential to shrink the installed base for Mac OS developers. > They are, but they have no choice but to whisper due to the > Mac OS developers. > > http://www.apple.com/developer/macosx That URL isn't valid. Did you mean "http://www.apple.com/macosx"? In any case, I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 13 Feb 1999 18:56:13 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <7a4hsd$nod$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dn65xg.8woh6u1bffyw8N@[192.168.0.2]> <7a4cld$3bl$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> Uli Zappe <uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote: : lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote: : > [*] If it also has good devtools and a RAD dev environment (perhaps : > called YB), so much the better, but secondary to PM/PMT (the reason for : > the NeXT acquisition) in Mac OS. : If PM/PMT really was the reason for the acquisition of NeXT, and YB wasn't, : then Apple was unbelievably stupid. PM/PMT is not that much of a deal : nowadays, and there would have been lots of options to acquire a (more : up-to-date!) UNIX based OS with PM/PMT without having to spent something : like $ 400 million. I think the then-management thought they were buying a ready-to-roll OS with PM/PMT, a next-generation GUI, and much internationalization in place. I think Apple expect to introduce that OS as a great leap forward. That was in December of 1996. For whatever reason, the OS _products_ Apple purchased with NeXT were never marketed. Factors that contributed to that not-to-market decsision were: - The need to accomodate principal Mac OS application vendors - The need to stay below Microsoft's "competetive threat" radar - The need to satisfy Apple's in-house Mac OS constituency - The need to resolve licensing issues. It hardly matters now, but the idea of that great leap forward was what got me interested in the Mac again (after a few years off). : The real treasure Apple bought is YB. I know that the press and those : outside of Apple never quite got it (it was *really* ridiculous to hear : all that touting about PM/PMT as if this was anything spectacular or : worth this amount of money), but if even Apple itself didn't get it, : well, then... : (Of course, you could argue the real treasure was their new iCEO and the : NeXT people he brought with him. But PM/PMT certainly wasn't.) The treasure Apple bought was a ready-to-roll OS. The fact that it contained some good OO technology makes its non-introduction that much more painful. The fact that a ready-to-roll OS was dissassembled to form little more that a parts-bin for future hacking is a crime. Q: How do middle managers divide a working OS? A: See the Apple OS roadmap. John PS - Don't anybody tell me all I have to do is wait for MacOS X. I was here, in December of '96, when this started. I got fed up and called it as a waste of energy by the Summer Of Redesign (in '97). Waiting for '00 is way beyond my attention span.
From: "Edmond Hirota" <ehirota0@sm.ivc.cc.ca.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: netboot possibility Organization: IVC Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <b2lx2.705$nS1.1642648@newsfeed.intelenet.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:13:59 PDT Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:13:59 GMT I think what is most likely in the longrun is that MacOS X Server will only netboot the current Apple client operating system. Currently, Apple's "desktop" OS is MacOS 8. But come next year it will be MacOS X. So perhaps next year OS X Server will netboot MacOS X. Just speculation. Eddie Hirota edmondh@ioc.net
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:57:04 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <7a4ouv$oda$2@news.panix.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:57:04 GMT On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:03:17 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >In article <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com>, > sal@panix.com wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:32:38 GMT, >> So you're saying that there is never a good reason to dump backwards >> compatibility? >I said what I said, your attempts to spin it notwithstanding. WebObjects >forces the developer to lose code-compatibility, which is unacceptable in >many or most situations. This is *not* true. Go to Apple's WebObjects site and look at the tech specs. from: http://www.apple.com/webobjects/techspecs.html " Integrates with industry-standard development environments that support Sun's JDK 1.1.6 and the ANSI C, C++ and Objective-C compiler and debugger." You can wrap up C++ classes under Obj-C and use them. If you go to dejanews and check out old posts in the csn.Programmer and cl.Objective-C newsgroups you'll find a number of post on how to do this. You might also want to check out Stepwise, there might be some stuff there as well. >> If EOF/EOM can cut down on the time it takes maintain large enterprise >> databases systems, and that savings more than offsets the cost of dumping >> code that has become more expense to maintain, then this would be a >> smart more. >That would be just short of obvious. The likelihood of such a thing, on the >other hand, I will leave up to the reader as an exercise. Keep in mind that WO has had year-year growth for installed base, market share, profit and revenue for at least the last 9 quarters running. Large companies are using it for large projects. The only small thing about these projects in the cost in man hours and the bug counts. >> I guess if what you want is _lines and lines of code_ RW is the way to go. >Large programming projects generally consist of "lines and lines of code". >When you get there, you'll see what I mean. And large products are generally late and over budget and take _years_ to get workable. Maybe you don't notice the relation between lines of code and bugs but I do. When you're drowning in code the last thing you need it to _add_ more code in the form of a new class lib. You should be looking at ways to cut down the size of the code base. >> No it doesn't fit in well. >> Every large C++ system I've seen where a new 3rd party lib was added after >> the code was started suffers from what I call "Object Disorienting >> Programming" >Was this going to be about EOF and RogueWave, or a dissertation on the >pathologies of some programming projects in the abstract? Noting the >pathologies of software development is *not* appropriate to this discussion. Yes it is. The habit of solving problems with "more of the same" is what causes large projects to become support nightmares. >> When you build from a set of 3rd party libs you indubitable end up with >> some overlap in those libs (ie, each has a string and set class) The >> larger the libs, the greater the scope of the overlap and the greater >> the problems that overlap causes. > >...so? If you like, use RogueWave's collection classes in your code to solve >this problem. Your solution to class overlap is... add more classes? > If you have existing collection classes and feel that the above >is symptomatic of a serious problem, retrofit. And how does a major rewrite (replace all the collection classes) qualify as "code reuse"? > If you don't feel it's >necessary, leave it as it is. The issue of code-level integration has a more >complex answer than "Buy WebObjects", which is why fewer and fewer people >listen to anything Apple says. So WO isn't growing? No one is adopting it in an effort to cut down on the costs of building and maintain large enterprise systems? I can produce plenty of links from credible 3rd parties showing WO growth, can you provide links showing that this isn't the case? <<clip>> >I really can't believe this gets you so exercised. What C++ programmer hasn't >experience the inevitable object duplication that exists in large projects? This is the problem of adding new classlibs (like RW) to existing projects. After all that you agree with my point. >Using a product like DBTools.h++ provides the solution to these duplication >problems if you're willing to use it: a common set of object factories that >discourage (not encourage) this duplication problem. And if you use it to solve your class duplication problems you won't be re-using code, you'll be replacing it. You once again agree with my point. >Now back to the original question...what are you going to do about old code? Wrap is up in Obj-C classes and extend the system with Codeless GUIs and EO objects. >> Sometimes a new approach is needed for progress to occur. >Take it to a self-help seminar. Enterprises only hear that from salesmen and >Dionne Warwick. Which are you? <<clip>> >That's probably because the Unix market is the one that's been sitting here >doing all the work and writing all of the code while the rest of you dreamt of >sugar plums and WebObjects. In walks the NeXT crowd and they want to know why >everyone hasn't adopted the New Big Thing. Insults? Well at least you're consistent
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:57:03 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <7a4ouu$oda$1@news.panix.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a280k$ufu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C4B283.90477227@ericsson.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:57:03 GMT On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:00:19 -0600, Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >Charles Swiger wrote: >> Why are you forced to lose code-compatibility? >You're not. The question was in the context of Sal's implicit assertion >that at times it is good to lose code-compatibility. The inference I >drew is that the hypothetical developer has decided to "dump backwards >compatibility" as a result of a move to WebObjects. I can only respond >to what's posted in the context of what's posted. Then why did you state the following? From article: <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "I said what I said, your attempts to spin it notwithstanding. WebObjects ^^^^^^^^^^ forces the developer to lose code-compatibility, which is unacceptable in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ many or most situations. This makes WebObjects, itself, unacceptable, save ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ for high-profile, brand-new Web-based setups, such as marketing sites and online retail. Even in these situations the online retail portion may necessarily be the smallest part of a large retail operation, in which case the enterprise developer is scarcely disposed to dump the larger system in favor of a product called "WebObjects"." <<>> How much do you know about WO or EOF in the first place? From the looks of this one would think that you know almost nothing about the product at all. Were you unaware that C++ can be used by ObjC apps? BTW, I made sure to quote _both_ paragraphs in question in their entirety to prevent you from arguing that I am taking things out of context. >> > Is this a problem that goes away when you use Objective-C, perhaps? >> Largely, yes. Pity the final keyword on things like java.lang.string causes >> problems for code reuse in that language.... >Whatever that means. If you don't understand how having a solid, well thought out set of generic classes prevents code bloat; specifically the proliferation of special classes, you should not be in this conversation at all.
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 13 Feb 1999 21:44:46 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <7a4roe$3p6$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FILTER@colorado.edu In <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> jeff wrote: > Just out of curiosity, could anyone give me a feel for where most of the > NeXT users migrating? (and any reasons if possible) > > Are people moving to OSX? Over to NT? Unix/Linux? (Be?) I know several > people who are moving to NT because they spent the last several years > running NeXT on PC and don't want to move hardware platforms (again). Many > of the people that I've met who were die-hard NeXT users aren't moving to > OSX, which puzzles me a bit. > > Thanks for any responses. > -jeff I agree with Bernhard. In my shop I'm Running 4.2 on White Fine TYVM. 3.3 is on Black - for legacy reasons. 95/NT installed on the PC that would have had MacOS X - for access to the MS worlds to deal with compatibility issues, and to have access to Java/Active X stuff. The other significant piece is 2 SGi systems with IRIX to deal with other clients - (who are also moving on IMHO). Linux sits on the PC also - since many of my clients are moving in that direction with regards to servers (dns, mail - qmail, apache, SQL, ODBC, etc.). NT many times sits on the back end because the sheer amount of tools/software solutions and 'relative' ease of use - surety of support, and the fact that most clients are already using it. Currently most work relates to integrating the front end Linux servers with the backend NT servers.. As to migration - at least in my shop we are looking more and more toward portable solutions - This pretty much means C, perl, and unfortunately X/OpenGL. Java even though crossplatform - has serious performance problems that are now only becoming apparent for relatively simple tasks. As to where we/I will migrate to eventually. I will continually urge my clients and take our shop toward open vs. closed solutions - to me this is the only long term win-win solution. In the short term we will use proprietary solutions that work for us AS IS NOW - not on some future wild promises of what MIGHT be. Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:57:04 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <7a4ov0$oda$3@news.panix.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <x0Yw2.350$h3.81055@homer.alpha.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 1999 20:57:04 GMT On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:45:33 GMT, Ron Peterson <rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com> wrote: >: If EOF/EOM can cut down on the time it takes maintain large enterprise ^^^^^ >: databases systems, and that savings more than offsets the cost of dumping >: code that has become more expense to maintain, then this would be a >: smart more. > >Most database systems are small and don't require sophisticated >technology. That's why I specifically mentioned "large" systems in my post. >: Yes, and EOF is about producing Objects _without code_ that greatly >: simplifies the process of defining business logic, and creating interfaces >: to that logic. >Code, or at least human and machine readable documentation, is always >needed to get a robust system implementation. You don't need code to get a solid system. Compare the UIs built with InterfaceBuilder to UIs built with code gen tools. You can find out more about IB and how it works on the Apple OSX pages. You might also want to go to www.Stepwise.com and read a few articles on this, start with "Freeze dried objects" by Donald Yactman and then poke around for the others. http://www.stepwise.com/Articles/Technical/FreezeDriedObjects.html <<clipped, Chuck did a better job with it than I could>>
From: spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 13 Feb 1999 23:41:52 GMT Organization: Michigan State University Message-ID: <7a52k0$4ca$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dn65xg.8woh6u1bffyw8N@[192.168.0.2]> <7a4cld$3bl$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <7a4hsd$nod$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: jjens@primenet.com In <7a4hsd$nod$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> John Jensen wrote: > Uli Zappe <uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote: > : lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote: > : > [*] If it also has good devtools and a RAD dev environment (perhaps > : > called YB), so much the better, but secondary to PM/PMT (the reason for > : > the NeXT acquisition) in Mac OS. > > : If PM/PMT really was the reason for the acquisition of NeXT, and YB wasn't, > : then Apple was unbelievably stupid. PM/PMT is not that much of a deal > : nowadays, and there would have been lots of options to acquire a (more > : up-to-date!) UNIX based OS with PM/PMT without having to spent something > : like $ 400 million. > > I think the then-management thought they were buying a ready-to-roll OS > with PM/PMT, a next-generation GUI, and much internationalization in > place. I think Apple expect to introduce that OS as a great leap forward. > > That was in December of 1996. > > For whatever reason, the OS _products_ Apple purchased with NeXT were > never marketed. Factors that contributed to that not-to-market decsision > were: > > - The need to accomodate principal Mac OS application vendors > - The need to stay below Microsoft's "competetive threat" radar I think this is a very big concern IMHO (MS). > - The need to satisfy Apple's in-house Mac OS constituency > - The need to resolve licensing issues. > > It hardly matters now, but the idea of that great leap forward was what > got me interested in the Mac again (after a few years off). Got me interested in NeXT in 1987-88. > : The real treasure Apple bought is YB. I know that the press and those > : outside of Apple never quite got it (it was *really* ridiculous to hear > : all that touting about PM/PMT as if this was anything spectacular or > : worth this amount of money), but if even Apple itself didn't get it, > : well, then... I agree. But realize that NeXT didn't really bring anything to MacOS proper - NOTHING. YB is a seperate product that clearly MacOS crowds arn't interested in in general. Apple brought everything to NeXT - unfortunately the NeXT folk didn't seem to understand the needs of Mac folk.. The war still rages between the Apple/MacOS and NeXT/step camps I'm sure. > : (Of course, you could argue the real treasure was their new iCEO and the > : NeXT people he brought with him. But PM/PMT certainly wasn't.) Blah. Wish they would have dumped Jobs - immediately. > The treasure Apple bought was a ready-to-roll OS. The fact that it > contained some good OO technology makes its non-introduction that much > more painful. Agreed. Though the non-introduction was directly releated to someones overwhelming desire to merge YB and MacOS technologies into one OS. This effectively to this day has failed miserably. YB and MacOS are two completely different beasts.. I'm suprised Apple didn't see this initially they may not have purchased NeXT. But the same problem would have occured with any other acquisition. IMHO. > The fact that a ready-to-roll OS was dissassembled to form little more > that a parts-bin for future hacking is a crime. > > Q: How do middle managers divide a working OS? > A: See the Apple OS roadmap. :) Yes indeed.. > John > > PS - Don't anybody tell me all I have to do is wait for MacOS X. I was > here, in December of '96, when this started. I got fed up and called it > as a waste of energy by the Summer Of Redesign (in '97). Waiting for '00 > is way beyond my attention span. Completely agreed. Though I waited till Summer of 98 - Carbon Redesign before I had finally decided I had enough. I want to make a couple final comments. I've watches Scott Anguish defend the whole YB situation. I agree with many of his comments regarding how Apple probably MUST keep YB on the backburner. Why? 1) Rework the display engine to make YB free - as they origionally promised/intended. Adobe is a serious thorn in the side of Apple. And until this is done YB must be downplayed 2) MacOS dev particularly arn't interested in YB - they have a legacy investiment in MacOS code. Protecting this investiment is all important to them. 3) Wait until MS releases NT5 - and get YB on NT5/Win2000 before trying to take on MS - give DOJ trial time to play out. And try not to get locked out of NT5/Win2000. All of the above are arguments for why YB itself is in question. Apple may be committed - but who in their right mind will buy a MacOS X Server and bet their company on it? So we wait - and ya know while everyone is waiting - they will be exploring other options.. It don't cost much to check out NT Server and related solutions, or Linux. And when they find that those solutions are pallatible and maybe even preferrable - they'll stop waiting.. I know mid last year I advocated the name change from Rhapsody to MacOS X Server, and this was in conjunction with other moves Apple has failed to mainfest. This is sole reason the acceptance of MacOS X and YB will be extremely questionable. It might be Apple just doesn't care - they think they have a ace in the hole for the unveiling of MacOS X probably Jan 1 2000 I'd bet.. I havn't thought this out carefully since Apple doesn't pay me for such analysis and I don't give a crap about them anymore - nor will be buying/supporting or recommending any of their products for quite some time.. But... I believe that Scott's name change of MacOS X Server to Openstep2000 and endeavoring to isolate YB/WO/EOF, NeXT products AS a seperate product line from MacOS proper would be prudent at this point. Simply because MacOS dev, users etc. get too skiddish about the thought of moving to this new OS.. Looking back (which is always easier to make analysis) it would have been (BTW I advocated Apple releasing Openstep 4.2 on PPC ASAP way back 1/97. I figured they could have gotten it out by July. And all my arguments back then still apply today, and are probably repeated.) very advantageous for Apple to have added Openstep/PPC to its /x86 /Sun /black lines as a completely seperate product line. Openstep could and can stand on it's own - it needn't be coupled with MacOS anything.. And if Scott is right and Apple is effectively going to sit on MacOS X Server/YB for the next year before MacOS X proper is released - it would be better to differentiate Openstep/YB/WO/EOF from MacOS now. I would be interested to hear what the Mac folks would think if Apple did this. Would they be relieved somehow? I mean then Apple could continue with the "MacOS roadmap" to MacOS X proper focussing there exclusively on Carbon, Bluebox - and guess what MacOS folks all the apps and features in Openstep - you'll get in MacOS X on top of the changes and additions to MacOS proper - (i.e. PM/PMT, new fs, new releases of apps, etc.).. The only thing I can see is that Apple would have to delinate Openstep2000 as a SEPERATE product line from MacOS X - and commit to BOTH of them for support into the forseeable future.. Now the only issues that would have to be cleaned up. For the Openstep2000 croud. 1) DPS is being reworked - It will move to something that will allow free YB runtime licensing. And may mean code changes. Good/Bad news. a) They will have to address whether people can deploy now is there a reasonably priced YB/Win solution now? 2) Solid commitment to having Openstep2000/Mach available on x86 and PPC at a minimum into the forseeable future, and in reality I see no reason why not keep a solaris version - but x86 and PPC are the two biggies and would illustrate a serious commitment by Apple to the Openstep2000 product. (note even if the x86 hardware support is somewhat limited -) 3) Openstep2000 developers at a minimum are guaranteed access to the future MacOS X users - and if supported x86 - that group also.. Note that Apple could in principle still sell Openstep 2000 at a much higher price than MacOS X .. (would be a good idea to still give edu a discount - to get mindshare - apps -etc. and a reasonably priced Openstep2000 User ) 4) Should be able to serve MacOS X clients - netboot etc. For the MacOS X croud. 1) MacOS X will only run on PPC. This should make it so Apple realizes it won't be cannibalized on its PPC sales. 2) Carbon will be full fledged supported API in MacOS X 3) BlueBox will be available - for legacy support. 4) Most if not all products available for Openstep 2000 will run on MacOS X - (differentiate a MacOS X Server/Dev/User products here) particularly MacOS X Server.- You effectively get Openstep2000 in MacOS X and more. 5) MacOS X Server version should have MP PPC hardware to run on. and only sell MacOS X on that hardware - not Openstep 2000. 6) New Display engine PDF -Quicktime??! The above would be a solution that would possibly give YB/Openstep/WO/EOF etc. products the next year to mature and grow - so when MacOS X is released there should be a plethoria of YB Apps available even if the MacOS developers don't Carbonize. BlueBox will offer some added legacy compatibility.. There should be no confusion - the beloved MacOS won't be coming to x86 and only be available on PPC - as all the Apple fanatics would want. And for the YB/NeXT crowd they'd get what they want - a seperate product with support for x86/PPC - that is not necessairly tied to the MacOS Product. Most of them won't need BlueBox - but it can be available as a product - Just call it OpenMac.app or something.. As a seperate product. This way Apple can split the advertising and marketing/support sections into Openstep2000 and MacOS X sections - each effectively independant and monitored/managed by an elite team behind the scenes that is aware of how MacOS X and Openstep 2000 interoperate.... When YB/win finally comes online with the new display engine the MacOS X section can sell it as MacWin (Can Apple port Carbon API's to Windows??), and for the Openstep croud as OpenWin.. OpenWin - YB/windows MacWin - Carbon/windows (possibly with OpenWin bundled in).. I know Apple didn't really want to go the dual OS route - but I suspect at least for the Next few years until both camps get feet under their legs - and start running that this is the way it should be. Eventually depending on how each business fairs Apple can decide which way they'd like to go with each product - also Openstep 2000 can act as a hedge against any hardware crunch - Openstep 2000 should evolve into a OS that runs on many hardware platforms if it can - or even into somekind of Open solution. And along side of it MacOS can evolve as a "proprietary" solution that is tied to PPC. Openstep 2000 can have a significantly higher pricetag since it may or may not come with Apple hardware (BTW a significant discount if Apple hardware is purchased with Openstep 2000 is a good idea IMHO) where as MacOS user can still sell relatively cheaply (since it will only run on PPC hardware). As a hint on the Products Apple could offer. MacOS X User (BlueBox, Carbon, YB, basic OS) MacOS X Dev (User + Carbon/YB/Java Dev environment) MacOS X Server (Dev + WO, etc.) MacWin (Carbon?/YB - Windows runtime) MacWin Dev (Enterprise) Openstep 2000 User (YB, Basic OS) Openstep 2000 Dev (User + YB/Java Dev tools - Carbon as a option or included) Openstep 2000 Server (Dev + WO, etc.) OpenWin (YB - Windows runtime) OpenWin Dev (Enterprise) OpenMac (BlueBox only for PPC) Openstep 2000 products would be sold as seperate packages x86 only PPC only bifat and priced accordingly. Price breaks for edu and when purchasing Apple PPC hardware would be given only to Openstep 2000 purchasers - and should not be lower than the price for MacOS X products + Apple hardware in ANY case. A solid commitment - in writing committing to Carbon support in MacOS X for at least the next 5 years and for x86/PPC support for Openstep 2000 products would be required to make both of these viable ventures - then at that 5 year period Apple could reevaluate sales, customer bases etc. and decide then to FINALLY merge the products into ONE across all intended hardware lines.. This has been the solution staring Apple in the face for the last 2 years and it is a natural one. When a previously Carbon/Mac/Apple customer calls they should be able to ask for MacOS and get someone who will talk to them in that capacity - who'll skip the YB hyping - focus on the needs of that group. Similiarly with the Openstep/YB folks - there is no need for any Carbon/BB/MacOS hyping, etc. The only down sides I see are additional overhead expenses in managing the two divisions in Apple. Also the liability of committing to support over the next 5 years (heck even 3 might work - to get to IA32/64). The last biggie - with Openstep 2000 at least - they have to finally commit to x86 support to at least a moderate amount of MB chipsets, cards etc. The thing is if IOKit is so great and Apple gives a commitment - I don't see why certian 3rd parties wouldn't write drivers.. It already works - SELL it DAMNIT. Problem is NeXT failed to work well with 3rd parties in the past - and once burned twice shy.. To this end Adopting Don Yacktman's OpenMach proposal may be a nice way to give that extra kick to re-jumpstart the Openstep 2000 business. Apple needn't give out source to drivers for their own PPC models - and only needs to open up the lower Mach/BSD layers. Let GNUstep folk come back into the fold and offer that Open 3rd alternative to Openstep/MacOS options.. These kinds of steps could effectively seal the second sourcing and support issues related to the Enterprise making solid financial commitments to YB and effectively to Apple. And I'll say this again. Apple EVEN if your hardware is only marginally faster than PC's if you can win mindshare - and some desktops in the Enterprise corporations - the fact that PPC has a DISTINCT edge with respect to Portable computing - could easily give Apple a long term edge in notebooks and the further miniturization of computing in the long run.. As a last point - If you Apple decide to invest in building legacy PPC now - when the switch to IA32/64 comes along and it is found PPC can hold it's own against IA32/64 I suspect Apple will find itself in a very nice position to garner a much larger chunk of the x86 masses as they are forced to decide to switch to IA32/64 or PPC. The above is precisely the reason to offer Openstep 2000 to x86 folks. It's a long term play - and the short term potential PPC losses compared to the short term Enterprise mind/desktop share that you can gain is extremely minimial and in fact barely a minus I suspect. As computing miniturizes and becomes more modular/mobile Apple & IBM would very likely find themselves in a very enviable position of having platforms that are solidly outperforming their sluggish x86 counterparts, with IA as vapour. Particularly if IA32/64 doesn't show up in a timely manner - and possibly even if it does (since the port to IA arch should be relaitvely easy if OpenMach has been adopted for the previous 1-2 years, or even if there is no OpenMach).. I seriously Implore Apple to please consider the above options. As it stands now IMHO Apple has already lost out completely in my shop - and with my clients. The name Apple is laughed at and barely a curiousity anymore. Linux garners much MUCH more respect than MacOS, and even NeXTstep/Openstep. Within the next year this window of opportunity will close if YB is effectively tossed on the shelf to await another day to unveil. Sincerely, Randy Rencsok rencsok or spammers at ruin d0t the d0t internet d0t channelu d0t com http://www.channelu.com/Staff.html
Message-ID: <36C61294.46D604E7@nstar.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:02:28 -0600 From: "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a280k$ufu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C4B283.90477227@ericsson.com> <7a4ouu$oda$1@news.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sal Denaro wrote: > How much do you know about WO or EOF in the first place? From the looks > of this one would think that you know almost nothing about the product > at all. Very little, indeed. I posted in response to Chuck's comments, not yours. What's your beef? > Were you unaware that C++ can be used by ObjC apps? Of course, but not the other way around. You missed the word "integration", or what? [cut] > If you don't understand how having a solid, well thought out set of generic > classes prevents code bloat; specifically the proliferation of special > classes, you should not be in this conversation at all. The wheel is still spinning, but the hamster is dead, apparently. You barely even read what I wrote; must've been looking for choice bits to use in picking another of your little pissing fights. MJP
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 14 Feb 1999 00:30:02 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <7a4roe$3p6$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: <19990213193002.07408.00001368@ng-ch1.aol.com> Although long-time readers here probably already know my response, I could no longer resist chiming in. I'm currently using OpenStep 4.2 on a Cube and will continue to do this--have pretty much given up on getting OpenStep running on my ThinkPad, but am keeping an eye on Linux, and will be installing it on my PowerMac at work--hopefully I'll be able to help out with the GNUstep project and move to that. Obligatory pointers for those who're interested in this direction: <www.gnustep.org> <www.windowmaker.org> <www.postilion.org> <www.lyx.org> William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Message-ID: <36C62059.B959FF2F@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:04:11 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:07:00 CDT Michael Peck wrote: > As seen on Slashdot.org: > http://www.eenn.net/dept/spot_2_8_99.html > > Apple couldn't deliver on the open-platform promise, but Linux will. The > winners write the history books; will Apple and NeXT be any more than a > footnote? Thanks for the post! That article REALLY MAKES MY DAY. But I wonder if the Mot will do G3/G4 versions, and I hope that Apple can be reluctantly forced somehow into going CHRP! :) -Eric
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:06:32 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial01p32.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36C62195.7CFDB0F2@tone.ca> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dn65xg.8woh6u1bffyw8N@[192.168.0.2]> <7a4cld$3bl$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <7a4hsd$nod$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <7a52k0$4ca$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 1999 01:07:52 GMT spammers@ruin.the.internet.channelu.com wrote: > > All of the above are arguments for why YB itself is in question. Apple may > be committed - but who in their right mind will buy a MacOS X Server and > bet their company on it? A lot of large MacOS installations will be buying MacOSX Server to check it out, not to bet their company on. They will be checking not only the server and development parts, they will check out the applications. In fact they'll check out the apps first because it'll be a lot easier. The main reason they will is because the MacOS tends to crash, and MacOSX Server, theoretically won't. So if they use Quark and are annoyed with the stability of MacOS, they will check out PasteUp. Furthermore if the platform is as good as you guys say sales and usage of MacOSX Server will be hot indeed, and Apple will be yelled at by some important users for some slack on price. I run a two-bit publishing setup, but I'm going to buy MacOSX Server. Since I won't have too much to serve, I'll be porting my Hypercard based legacy systems to WebObjects (talk about overkill), and I'll be using PasteUp for layout, Create for graphics, etc. Getting in on the ground floor. I hope you guys all havn't deserted by the time things get exciting. Michael
Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> In-Reply-To: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> From: ix@ix.ix Message-ID: <R9qx2.1114$bP2.13411@typhoon-sf.pbi.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 02:03:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:03:29 PDT Organization: SBC Internet Services On 02/11/99, jeff wrote: >Just out of curiosity, could anyone give me a feel for where most of the >NeXT users migrating? (and any reasons if possible) > >Are people moving to OSX? I'm sticking with OpenStep/Mach 4.2 Intel for now. Here's why: OSX doesn't run on Intel. Why should I replace my Intel machines at work and home to run the same OS with a Mac UI? If I were still doing NeXT/WebObjects development, I'd have to move to OpenStep/NT but either way, there's no way me or my employer is going to replace working Intel HW with an overpriced G3s. My work and home machines are both PII 3xxs with 6G disks and 128M ram and nice graphics cards - $700 a peice. Comprable G3s would be way more expensive. Steve Dekorte
Message-ID: <36C635CF.ABFAA0C3@mediaone.net> From: "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> Organization: Guess who?! ;-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:35:51 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:38:36 CDT "Marc J. Driftmeyer" wrote: > I most certainly will be running MacOS X > Server and X when it is available. I personally amd deciding on whether > to wait for my system purchases to be bought after WWDC or wait until > September when Apple releases their new solutions. I am in the same boat... G4/AltiVec seems to be worth waiting for, but I'd like to run OS X now. > No way would I migrate away. The tools and the User Experience will > just get better and damn the OS is just too damn good to not want to use > and the power within MacOS X Server is awesome. It will be seen. Yep. :-) -Eric
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: what ever happened to 'free os/2'? Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:37:16 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79t1mf$d9i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <369EB0B7.C052CEC3@intrepid.net> <+iRu28D5wK4c090yn@erols.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-EuTLygLLnKcq@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36B9ACB0.D4E8A4A7@cadence.com> <JqnCCXS3fWdc-pn2-PtYlB87Q61gd@modemcable068.209.96.mmtl.videotron.net> <36BE5C44.B98C6AD4@tca.com> <79ps0n$hnp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C19FA8.3058A062@cadence.com> In article <36C19FA8.3058A062@cadence.com>, Simon Kinahan <simonk@cadence.com> wrote: > Charles Swiger wrote: >> And then, someone will realize that they've already got a tool designed to >> hold any number of recursive levels, and any number of entities at each >> level, which is the filesystem itself. > > True enough, I think. Although the functionality of OSes with > resource-forked filesystems is very nice, I do not think the filesystem > feature is really required. > > I rather like the Archimedes solution - all GUI applications were > directories containing all the required resources, setup files etc. Not so > good on a multi-user machine, but then I suspect neither are resource > forks. That's the same model NeXT used. There was no problem working with a multi- user system, since NEXTSTEP provided well-defined conventions for how to find "networked" versus "local" versus "per-user" resources, and there was a per- user defaults system to hold individual preferences. I agree that one fault of having resources in seperate files is that it can increase app loading time somewhat, since you've got to open more files. On the other hand, with lazy loading of resources, you can eliminate some of this delay, or at least distribute it some as you exercise different aspects of the program.... -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Michael Peck <michael.peck@ericsson.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:51:16 -0600 Organization: Ericsson Data Services Americas Message-ID: <36C20D64.7ED32225@ericsson.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forrest Cameranesi wrote: > >Now, suddenly, a third party has accomplished it, and the > >double-standard must twist itself harder and harder to fit the facts. > > Apple *couldn't* financially; if they had, they would have gone out of > business. But they *could* technically; if they wanted to, and didn't > worry about going out of business, they could have easilly made CHRP MBs. Yes, that is a fairly good example of what I was describing. It is a little obvious, since we would *hope* that Apple had the technical capabilities necessary to produce CHRP MBs (most of the cloners could do this themselves). Still, it makes clever use of *partial* meanings to justify the double-standard, which is the whole point, right? MJP
From: Michael.Peck@ericsson.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 03:51:46 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a5h8g$hs8$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <36C62059.B959FF2F@mediaone.net> In article <36C62059.B959FF2F@mediaone.net>, "Eric A. Dubiel" <liberty4all@mediaone.net> wrote: > Michael Peck wrote: > Thanks for the post! That article REALLY MAKES MY DAY. But I wonder if > the Mot will do G3/G4 versions, and I hope that Apple can be reluctantly > forced somehow into going CHRP! :) I doubt any major manufacturers or OS developers will bother with CHRP at this point just because it's there. But if PPC has any staying power, and Linux-on-CHRP gains any kind of following, there's a strong possibility it could make a real game. IBM's new devotion to Linux and Motorola's apparent willingness to keep PPC alive both mean there's an outside hope. This would be so cool. Maybe someday soon the lack of Rhapsody on Intel won't matter. :-) MJP -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: 14 Feb 1999 04:18:48 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 1999 04:18:48 GMT On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:02:51 -0500, Joe Ragosta <joe.ragosta@dol.net> wrote: :No, it's not absurd that IBM might do this. It's the idea that IBM might :market something properly that's absurd. : :IBM could have changed the entire computer world if they had just hired an :even half-way competent marketingdroid to push OS2 several years ago. It's :a little late now. What exactly would this droid have done? The reality was * everything on the PC had to run DOS programs. * Microsoft had rights to DOS on all non-IBM machines. * Microsoft sabotaged competing DOS implementations. * Microsoft sold Windows plus DOS for less money than than DOS alone. I don't see IBM's hypothetical victory strategy. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 14 Feb 1999 04:12:07 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7a5ien$7j5$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> <7a4gpc$ns4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <7a4gpc$ns4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/13/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com>, > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > >> Because plain and simple Common Sense should have told them >> that it was there. Instead they ran DIRECTLY to the press to piss >> about it. > >Apple should have told them everything immediately. Assuming that other people >have common sense is usually a stupid move. > More the pitty. Should Apple have listted off everything that was there? Or just what was key to the product marketing? The WWW site had a picture of the Mac OS X Server with the Blue Box app on it on the web site, the same day. Would Apple market it as _Mac OS_ X Server without Blue Box? Don't think so. >> The price point was set when the MacWeek article ran. > >But was it when developers got the news? > YES. These quotes were from developers who were AT EXPO, AT THE KEYNOTE. This was a "reaction piece". http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/editorial.h tml <snip> >> They are, but they have no choice but to whisper due to the >> Mac OS developers. >> >> http://www.apple.com/developer/macosx > >That URL isn't valid. Did you mean "http://www.apple.com/macosx"? In any case, >I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree. > Sorry.. I meant this http://developer.apple.com/macosx/ Last sentence, first paragraph It also includes a breakthrough software development platform, code-named Yellow Box, for building new classes of reliable, media-rich, and cross platform applications -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <631918363637@digifix.com> Date: 14 Feb 1999 04:44:27 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <15546918968424@digifix.com> Topics include: Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites NeXTanswers Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites ============================================ The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise. Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server http://www.stepwise.com Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related Frequently Asked Questions. NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org http://www.peak.org/next http://www.peak.org/openstep http://www.peak.org/rhapsody PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North America. Peanuts Archive http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/NEXTSTEP http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/OpenStep http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/Rhapsody http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/MacOSX http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/WebObjects http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/GeneralData The Peanuts-Archive is the premier site in Europe and mirrored in whole or parts all over the world. Apple Enterprise Software Group (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) http://enterprise.apple.com http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software patches. Apple Computer's Mac OS X Server Site http://www.apple.com/macosx/ Apple Computer's Mac OS X Server Developer Site http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/ Apple Computer's WebObjects Site http://www.apple.com/webobjects/ Mac OS X Server Developer Documentation http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/macosxserver.html WebObjects Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups ==================================================== COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific groups as well. COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. ** RELATED NEWSGROUPS ** COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. COMP.OBJECT Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites ================================= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.peanuts.org: (Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site. Very well maintained. ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: jedi@dementia.mishnet (jedi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:22:32 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com Message-ID: <slrn7c1uro.jvd.jedi@dementia.mishnet> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <79qmmq$h9f$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net> On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:18:02 -0500, Jonathan Haddad <leperkuhn@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> >>>Oops. I think you're right. >>> >>>Of course, lots and lots of people would be ecstatic with anything >>>approaching 5 transactions per minute--much less 50. >> >> 50 TPM is actually a quite trivial load. Is this >> a product geared towards the MS Access crowd or >> real dbas and webmasters? > >If someone is serious, they can buy WebObjects. Not to tough. I someone is serious, they just buy a real database for $1400 (or less) and not have to worry about artificial thruput constraints that push one's thruput down to the level of primitive flat-file ascii databases. They could even demo such a database gratis and not have to worry about whether or not the 'real' version will in fact suit their needs. -- Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or ||| is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \ as soon as your grip slips. In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: yaztromo@idirect.com (Brad BARCLAY) Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: WAFFER! MultiMedia Productions References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36c8b3e2.3088609@news-server> <918694158.729182801@news.hevanet.com> <36c96590.6850430@news-server> Message-ID: <36c26d7a.0@oasis.idirect.com> Date: 11 Feb 99 05:41:14 GMT In <36c96590.6850430@news-server>, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) writes: >And despite what OS/2 users think, there is not universal acknowledgement >that WPS is the best UI since Saint Babbage lived. If there's one rule which >is universally true of the Linux community, it's that they collectively >agree about virtually nothing regarding esthetics. Well, let's say that we equate "virtually universal" to be the subset of everyone, minus you :). >Profitability of such a port would be a crapshoot. It's virtually impossible >to guess how well it would sell, and IBM doesn't take those kinds of >chances. I happen to agree. IBM won't port the WPS to Linux - and the profitability of the port in itself probably wouldn't be the reason. The WPS is one of OS/2's most compelling features, especially with real power users. A port of the WPS to Linux might sell some copies, however what's the point if it winds up affecting OS/2 sales? IBM would have to provide additional service and support for such a product - and in order to do so, they'd probably have to take talent from their OS/2 development team. Besides which, there are technical reasons that would make it difficult. For one, the WPS is very heavily multithreaded - and Linux just doesn't have the lightweight threading support to handle it. Now I love OOUI's - and OS/2's is certainly the best example of an OOUI - however, I think that if one were to develop one for Linux, they'd be much better off starting from scratch rather than porting the WPS. Brad BARCLAY --------------- From the OS/2 WARP v4 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY. E-Mail: yaztromo@idirect.com WWW: http://yaztromo.idirect.com Public PGP Key available upon request. [ ] VoiceType Dictated.
From: "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:00:22 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Message-ID: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it possible to netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server? I have a copy of the Rhapsody DR release and I never tried this, but since there is so much NeXT code in there, I suspected it would work. Anyone have any ideas? Mitch --
From: mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux mail apps for ex-Mail.app user? Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:01:25 GMT Organization: ICX Online, Inc. Message-ID: <36c1032d.3105053@news.icx.net> References: <36c083a1.0@news.depaul.edu> <19990209202908.28772.00001059@ng-ch1.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Feb 1999 03:59:12 GMT willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) wrote: >Take a look at <www.postilion.org> It _looks_ great, however the web page says I need about 9 other things installed to make it work. Tcl/Tk TkStep tiff-v3.4 libjpeg-6a libXpm-4.7.tar.gz zlib-1.0.4.tar.gz WMOffiX.tar.gz dnd.1.1.tgz Fetchmail package This is what frustrates me with Linux. I don't have all day just to install my mail program.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 11 Feb 1999 17:00:00 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <79v2ag$olc$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : I said that Apple can cultivate new YB developers by offering : an edu discount. Those new developers would come from education.. There are some rare individuals who, as students, can tackle and complete a comercial quality application. I don't think it usually works that way. In my experience, the typical software entrepeneur has spent a few years in industry learning how applications are really written, and is ready to go home and spend his midnight hours hacking on his own dream. IMO, educational discounts are not directly about getting new products in the pipeline. They are only about creating an OS awareness which might (much later) lead to applications. John
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:10:10 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> In article <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com wrote: > I think it's because both YB and Carbon developers are UltraSkeptical > and are willing to believe the worst of any hint that Apple gives them. Agreed. > (1) Apple promotes YB: 100% of MacOS developers freak. {Already empirically > proven} This has not been proven. It has been proven that Mac OS developers freak when told that the majority of their legacy code and skill will be tossed aside. We have yet to see if Mac OS developers will freak if YellowBox is promoted while Apple is yelling Carbon from the highest tower, the development of the specification is well underway, compliance tools exist and, most importantly, Apple realises that they are cutting their own throats if they don't offer Toolbox support in Mac OS X. > (2) Apple promotes Carbon: 80% of YB developers freak. {Under way} You should have said: (2) Apple promotes Carbon while not doing anything to promote YB and not doing much to counter-act negative rumors: 80% of YB developers freak. {Under way} > (3) Apple promotes YB + Carbon equally: 50% of Carbon developers freak. > (0% of YB developers freak.) My hypotheses (which should be tested, of course): (3) Apple promotes YB + Carbon equally: 5% of Carbon developers freak. (2% of YB developers freak.) > I think they made the calculation that losing 50% of MacOS is worse than > 80% of OpenStep. Of course, but there is nothing to support the conclusing that Mac OS developers will freak if YellowBox is promoted. Also, if Apple really believes that YB is the future, then they have to be willing to accept some loss to promote it. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Message-ID: <36C1073C.DCD9725@frostbytes.com> From: Jim Frost <jimf@frostbytes.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C028A5.E01460BF@frostbytes.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990905530001@wil99.dol.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:12:44 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:11:21 EDT Organization: Northeast Region--MediaOne > > IBM really hates being at Microsoft's mercy. With a 3rd-party controlling the > > software they lose a big part of their advantage over the competition, plus it > > costs them a good chunk of change with every system they ship. > > And it's their own stupid fault. OS/2 could have had a place in the > computing world today if IBM had marketed it halfway competently. Read my lips: OS/2 COULD NOT HAVE SUCCEEDED, at least not after Microsoft bailed. The problem wasn't marketing, and it wasn't whether or not the product was good enough (at least not after about 1989). The problem was that it was IBM's baby, and no clone maker in their right mind would license it from IBM. So long as they could buy it from Microsoft it was a more-or-less level playing field, but when that availability ended so did any chance for OS/2 to succeed. > > Linux is the only near-term competitor to NT, and the only thing to come along > > in a long time that has any hope of getting supported by other vendors -- > > something which *must* happen to break Microsoft's market lock. > > Actually, a more likely competitor is Mac OS. MacOS won't make a dent in NT; it just doesn't do enough and it runs on too little hardware that costs too much. I still love it, but it's not the right thing for a server -- unless you're talking about their new UNIX-based server OS, in which case you might as well just run Linux; it's faster, cheaper, and most likely more stable. jim
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a280k$ufu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C4B283.90477227@ericsson.com> <7a4ouu$oda$1@news.panix.com> <36C61294.46D604E7@nstar.net> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36c69475.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 14 Feb 1999 09:16:37 GMT "Michael J. Peck" <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: >Sal Denaro wrote: > >> Were you unaware that C++ can be used by ObjC apps? > >Of course, but not the other way around. You missed the word >"integration", or what? Really, 'not the other way around' ? I guess that means I'll have to tell my C++ code that calls Objective-C code that it has to stop working because you say so :-) Seriously - to call Objective-C from C++ (or any other language), all you need is to link your app with the objc runtime. That being said - you wouldn't want to, except to enhance legacy C++ apps or because some dumb marketing person (or dumb customer) has decided your new app must be written in C++ or Java because that's what they read in the media.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? References: <7a4roe$3p6$3@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <19990213193002.07408.00001368@ng-ch1.aol.com> From: richard@brainstorm.co.uk (Richard Frith-Macdonald) Message-ID: <36c69552.0@nnrp1.news.uk.psi.net> Date: 14 Feb 1999 09:20:18 GMT I guess it's pretty obvious - I saw the writing on the wall over two years ago and moved to GNUstep (on Solaris and GNU/Linux). Easy for me - the company I work for does network/comms stuff so we only use the Foundation anyway. I guess if we were in the User apps business we'd have stuck with OPENSTEP and MacOS-X while working on GNUstep to hedge our bets.
From: pit@iohk.SPAM-NOT.com (taiQ) Organization: Urban Primates Unlimited Message-ID: <FIiROLCWddLd-pn2-Sd1r5MudV00p@localhost> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: 14 Feb 99 10:54:13 GMT On Sun, 14 Feb 1999 06:12:59, yaztromo@idirect.com (Brad BARCLAY) thought aloud: > In <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: > >:IBM could have changed the entire computer world if they had just hired an > >:even half-way competent marketingdroid to push OS2 several years ago. It's > >:a little late now. > > > >What exactly would this droid have done? > > > >The reality was > > > > * everything on the PC had to run DOS programs. > > * Microsoft had rights to DOS on all non-IBM machines. > > * Microsoft sabotaged competing DOS implementations. > > * Microsoft sold Windows plus DOS for less money than than DOS alone. > > > >I don't see IBM's hypothetical victory strategy. > > Alot of people are quick to say "IBM could have won the OS wars if they > had better marketing", however, I have yet to find a single person who could > propose a marketing strategy that would have accomplished this. With effective marketing OS/2 had all the potential to become a _strong_ niche with momentum of its own. Even one such lively niche in the PC marketplace could have resulted in a healthier overall market. Forgetting (nonexisting) marketing for a moment, the fundamental flaw OS/2 had was that it was controlled by a corporation that was in direct competition with all potential preloaders (OEMs). That Microsoft kept killing competiting application ISVs one by one wasn't of much concern to the OEMs, what mattered was that MS didn't have any incentive to start competiting with the OEMs. For this same reason Apple (as Hardware Co.) could never make Mac OS X a huge success on the PC platform (although even a moderate presence on x86 market would help Apple's PowerMac sales). BeOS doesn't carry such hardware burden but then again Be Inc. hasn't been able to gather enough momentum among mainstream app developers or hardware support among PC OEMs to earn them a ticket into Big Time. As a commercial venture Be Inc. could benefit from a few billions of new venture capital though, but the returns would still be uncertain. OTOH Linux doesn't need instant results or billions in the bank to succeed - eventually. There are no hidden corporate agendas, no forced hardware or OS upgrades, no threat of hostile takeover and subsequent shelving of Linux, it allows the developing world to get computerized at lower cost, small languages can be supported etc. Many of these things echo grassroots needs. There will always be some purists who demand everything GPL'd (I just expect the base infrastructure to remain 100% open, apps may come in all shapes, sizes and licenses) but on a fair and level playground commercial application competition will thrive as well. Even if OS/2 is on the decline it is possible that Linux will somehow incorporate OS/2's best features as it develops. Likewise features from NextStep and Mac OS are likely to find their way into Linux. Apart from a small number of fanatics devoted to some _company_, most people just need a user experience they can appreciate, and solid apps to run, to be satisfied with their computers. If Linux gets the mainstream app support (quite possible or even likely) and it can be setup to behave like Mac OS, OS/2, NextStep - or as a combination of these - I'd have nothing to complain about. For now I'll keep using OS/2, Linux and Mac OS separately. :-) > IBM could have held ticker-tape parades and showed an OS/2 commercial on > TV every 5 minutes - and it wouldn't have changed a thing because they > couldn't get the preload contracts. Pure and simple. > > IBM didn't lose because of anything IBM did wrong: they lost simply > because they weren't Microsoft, and Microsoft used its dominant position to > crush any non-MS OS. > > IBM's mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place for OS/2 > v1.0 - 1.2. No amount of marketing could have changed that. Indeed. IBM's partnering (DOS and OS/2) _created_ Microsoft. But now the monstrous result is helping create Linux... ;-) Brgds, -- taiQ [this space is intentionally blank]
From: "gabriel" <g.gaeta@zaz.com.br> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: gostaria de compartilhar duvidas e novidades... Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:27:47 -0200 Organization: ZAZ/NutecNet Message-ID: <79vlh0$jmh$2@srv4-poa.nutecnet.com.br> NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 1999 22:27:44 GMT 1.. Sou academico de direito e gostaria de compartilhar dúvidas e informaįões.... gabriel gaeta 3š ano direito UNIC - Cuiabá MT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:01:09 +1030 Message-ID: <7a0722$le9$1@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au> From: "Timothy Priest" <timothy.priest@dsto.defence.gov.au> Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Organization: AOD-DSTO References: <79ks6l$mk3$1@pump1.york.ac.uk> <19990207172711.23949.00001382@ng-ch1.aol.com> <79lpji$5kc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- In article <79lpji$5kc$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, raxelbrof@my-dejanews.com wrote: > As for the cost - in 1994 I paid AUS$1900 for a PPC Native Quark & $1200 for > Photoshop. The AUS$1400 Apple has announced for OS X Server doesn't seem too > bad by comparison. Where did you hear 1400. I heard 1600 at the summer update. From the Apple reps in big splashy ink. Tim Priest
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 10 Feb 1999 04:36:25 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/08/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com>, > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: <snip> >> If Apple can cultivate new YB developers, quietly, just be >> releasing Mac OS X Server to edu at a reasonable discount.. I think >> that would be a good start.. > >I don't think that most existing YellowBox developers are entitled to edu >discounts. > I didn't say that they were. I said that Apple can cultivate new YB developers by offering an edu discount. Those new developers would come from education.. >> I doubt Apple will promote YB for cross-platform until they >> can provide the free-runtime... (this is not to say that I believe >> that they will not release YB/NT runtimes till Mac OS X timeframe..) > >This is possible. Of course, Apple should be able to offer a free runtime by >the time OS X is released. The new imaging model will get rid of the Adobe >licenses. They can get rid of the pantone stuff if the need too. What else do >they need licenses for? > I've been told that Pantone doesn't come with YB/NT anyways.... Besides that.. LZW.. and they may have company wide licences that covers that off.. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
Message-ID: <36C70A10.22C4@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:38:24 -0500 From: Joseph <josco@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: IBM Global Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services Brad BARCLAY wrote: > > In <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: > >:IBM could have changed the entire computer world if they had just hired an > >:even half-way competent marketingdroid to push OS2 several years ago. It's > >:a little late now. > > > >What exactly would this droid have done? > > > >The reality was > > > > * everything on the PC had to run DOS programs. > > * Microsoft had rights to DOS on all non-IBM machines. > > * Microsoft sabotaged competing DOS implementations. > > * Microsoft sold Windows plus DOS for less money than than DOS alone. > > > >I don't see IBM's hypothetical victory strategy. > > Alot of people are quick to say "IBM could have won the OS wars if they > had better marketing", however, I have yet to find a single person who could > propose a marketing strategy that would have accomplished this. MS's in court trying to proove ot a judge that they had better prodcuts and marketing. It turns out that "better marketing" means breaking the both anti-trust and convential laws. Some of MS's exclusive deals (imposed by their monopoly power) were so emcompassing (90-95% of the market) that they have been called illegal for *any* company. > IBM's mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place for OS/2 > v1.0 - 1.2. No amount of marketing could have changed that. IBM was a monster in the 80's. OS/2 1.0 was supposed to work best with IBM PS/2 MCA systems and help IBM capture back the PC market. Once they knew thay had a life or death fight with MS and the clone makers they began to open OS/2 up. That was around v 1.3. By v 2.0 it was war. It was a war with a company that had a monopoly in the PC market AND knew also the market better. I happen to think the phoney video tests, now called illustrations, MS offered as evidence cloud many of the 90's OS reviews and product comparisons made by the computer media. One asks how could MS offer such crummy and doctored evidence to prove their technical point? The answer is HABIT. They seem to have gotten away with it for years.
From: tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com (Tim Hanson) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: Men Friendly Message-ID: <36c82cd7.399533140@news.globalfrontiers.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> <36C70A10.22C4@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:18:37 EDT Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:11:07 GMT Joseph <josco@ibm.net> wrote: >Brad BARCLAY wrote: >> >> In <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: >> >:IBM could have changed the entire computer world if they had just hired an >> >:even half-way competent marketingdroid to push OS2 several years ago. It's >> >:a little late now. >> > >> >What exactly would this droid have done? >> > >> >The reality was >> > >> > * everything on the PC had to run DOS programs. >> > * Microsoft had rights to DOS on all non-IBM machines. >> > * Microsoft sabotaged competing DOS implementations. >> > * Microsoft sold Windows plus DOS for less money than than DOS alone. >> > >> >I don't see IBM's hypothetical victory strategy. >> >> Alot of people are quick to say "IBM could have won the OS wars if they >> had better marketing", however, I have yet to find a single person who could >> propose a marketing strategy that would have accomplished this. > >MS's in court trying to proove ot a judge that they had better prodcuts >and marketing. > >It turns out that "better marketing" means breaking the both anti-trust >and convential laws. Some of MS's exclusive deals (imposed by their >monopoly power) were so emcompassing (90-95% of the market) that they >have been called illegal for *any* company. > >> IBM's mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place for OS/2 >> v1.0 - 1.2. No amount of marketing could have changed that. > >IBM was a monster in the 80's. OS/2 1.0 was supposed to work best with >IBM PS/2 MCA systems and help IBM capture back the PC market. Once they >knew thay had a life or death fight with MS and the clone makers they >began to open OS/2 up. That was around v 1.3. By v 2.0 it was war. It >was a war with a company that had a monopoly in the PC market AND knew >also the market better. > >I happen to think the phoney video tests, now called illustrations, MS >offered as evidence cloud many of the 90's OS reviews and product >comparisons made by the computer media. One asks how could MS offer >such crummy and doctored evidence to prove their technical point? The >answer is HABIT. They seem to have gotten away with it for years. The next video, the one purporting to show benefits of browser integration, will backfire also. They're trying to get away with comparing Win98's capabilities accessing an ISP with Win31, of all things. Boies successfully moved to show the results of a similar test of his own. Hopefully they will use the nearest relative for which integration was not claimed, OSR2. All those dumb tricks worked when they were the smartest people in a room of computer illiterates, but obviously no longer.
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: yaztromo@idirect.com (Brad BARCLAY) Subject: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: WAFFER! MultiMedia Productions References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> <36c7275c.398130090@news.globalfrontiers.com> Message-ID: <36c769bf.0@oasis.idirect.com> Date: 15 Feb 99 00:26:39 GMT In <36c7275c.398130090@news.globalfrontiers.com>, tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com (Tim Hanson) writes: >I remember those days a little too well myself. I actually went out and bought >the floppy version of OS/2 and installed it. Imagining the non-hobbyist user >going through that when Windows was available to perform some or all of the >tasks is difficult. > >I knew OS/2 was going nowhere when one couldn't even buy a true IBM PC without >paying the Windows tax. For awhile s/he could get it pre installed, but for >$200 more. [snip] >Agreed. Hopefully Linux doesn't have the same constraints; OEMs pre loading it, >while still small, aren't beholden to Microsoft in any way. Linux can be >cheaply placed on a generic box made and sold by the same VAR who services the >system and provides the support; we have several of them within the radius of >the local mall. I hope as the desktop improves some of those OS/2 loyalists >will give their support. Why they stayed with their fine OS despite such >treatment is beyond me. Linux doesn't have the same constraints only because of the fight fought by OS/2 and other non-MS (and non-Linux) adherents to get the DOJ to go after Microsoft in order to get rid of the per-processor lisence agreement. If we hadn't, Linux would have been in the exact same situation you describe above - forcing you to pay the Microsoft tax to get Linux preloaded that OS/2 users had to pay back before 1995. Don't forget that. The only people who have ever mistreated me as an OS/2 user have been Microsoft and it's adherents. IBM has always treated me as an OS/2 user quite excellently, and as such I have no reason to leave it - certainly not for Yet Another Unix Clone (ala Linux). Brad BARCLAY --------------- From the OS/2 WARP v4 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY. E-Mail: yaztromo@idirect.com WWW: http://yaztromo.idirect.com Public PGP Key available upon request. [ ] VoiceType Dictated.
From: Kamau Wanguhu <kamau@crl.dec.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Linux for NeXT Cube? Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:40:14 -0500 Organization: COmpaq Computer Corporation Message-ID: <36C77AFE.E2CD39B9@crl.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a version of linux that runs on the NeXT hardware. I had heard of a version that could be used with BOOTP but can not seem to find it anywhere. No flames please. :> Kamau Wanguhu kamau@crl.dec.com kamau@BORGcube.com
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 15 Feb 1999 03:31:56 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <7a84fc$hlr$7@hecate.umd.edu> References: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> <79lus2$p6r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0802990645350001@elk88.dol.net> <79o0vr$3n8$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0902990817380001@wil99.dol.net> Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. : Wang) wrote: : > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: : > : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. : > : Wang) wrote: : > : > : > 0.18um is the drawn length of the gate. 0.11um is the effective channel : > : > length. That doesn't make it a 0.11um process. That makes it a 0.18um : > : > process with a 0.11um effective channel length. MPR used to use Effective : > : > channel length as a predictor of process speed. They are now developing : > : > a new metric, as the junction capacitance now predominate, and effective : > : > channel lengths no longer become an accurate predictor of process : > : > performance. : > : > : True. But as with the shift to 0.25, Moto beat Intel out of the box. : > : > Who beat whom out of what box? Who shipped 0.25um first? When? And : > Who has a shipping 0.18um now? You're mixing up "announcement" with : > actual shipping of products. : Nope. Moto shipped 0.25 first. 604e Mach 5, I suppose. G3's were later than P II. : As for 0.18, neither of them has it. Moto is supposed to be shipping in : Q2. Intel will first have it in the PIII laptop chips in Q3 or Q4 : (according to PC Week). There a shrink for G3 in Q2? Where did you hear this from? : -- : Regards, : Joe Ragosta : joe.ragosta@dol.net -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:44:47 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79r9su$q7s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lu0n$92c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79m3ol$cvn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79od0k$a9n$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79od0k$a9n$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > >I'm not sure what you mean here. From the user's point of view, > >the only difference between a YellowBox and a Carbon finder is > >that a YellowBox finder should have some of the nicer behaviours > >common to YB applications (such as windows that can still be moved > >even when the application is busy). > > This should be the case anyways once you Carbonize an > application. Really? That would entail a fairly large change from the Mac OS event model. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:57:39 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <79ral0$qps$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79lph4$b4d$1@news.digifix.com> <79op2h$j0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com> In article <79r2c9$9v5$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > I didn't say that they were. > > I said that Apple can cultivate new YB developers by offering > an edu discount. Those new developers would come from education.. But why not encourage existing YB developers? -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com (Tim Hanson) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: Men Friendly Message-ID: <36c7bd94.436591953@news.globalfrontiers.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> <36c7275c.398130090@news.globalfrontiers.com> <36c769bf.0@oasis.idirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 01:43:32 EDT Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:31:13 GMT yaztromo@idirect.com (Brad BARCLAY) wrote: >In <36c7275c.398130090@news.globalfrontiers.com>, tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com (Tim Hanson) writes: >>I remember those days a little too well myself. I actually went out and bought >>the floppy version of OS/2 and installed it. Imagining the non-hobbyist user >>going through that when Windows was available to perform some or all of the >>tasks is difficult. >> >>I knew OS/2 was going nowhere when one couldn't even buy a true IBM PC without >>paying the Windows tax. For awhile s/he could get it pre installed, but for >>$200 more. > >[snip] > >>Agreed. Hopefully Linux doesn't have the same constraints; OEMs pre loading it, >>while still small, aren't beholden to Microsoft in any way. Linux can be >>cheaply placed on a generic box made and sold by the same VAR who services the >>system and provides the support; we have several of them within the radius of >>the local mall. I hope as the desktop improves some of those OS/2 loyalists >>will give their support. Why they stayed with their fine OS despite such >>treatment is beyond me. > > Linux doesn't have the same constraints only because of the fight fought >by OS/2 and other non-MS (and non-Linux) adherents to get the DOJ to go after >Microsoft in order to get rid of the per-processor lisence agreement. If we >hadn't, Linux would have been in the exact same situation you describe above - >forcing you to pay the Microsoft tax to get Linux preloaded that OS/2 users >had to pay back before 1995. Don't forget that. > > The only people who have ever mistreated me as an OS/2 user have been >Microsoft and it's adherents. IBM has always treated me as an OS/2 user quite >excellently, and as such I have no reason to leave it - certainly not for Yet >Another Unix Clone (ala Linux). Okay, you got no argument from me, but IBM is now talking "migration strategy," and the intended migration is _away_ from OS/2, not toward it. Rumor has it that official support will be dumped in three years. Would you still keep using it after IBM dumped it?
From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: 15 Feb 1999 06:55:21 GMT Organization: IFA B111 Message-ID: <7a8gcp$he7@news.Hawaii.Edu> References: <36c7bd94.436591953@news.globalfrontiers.com> tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com writes: > Okay, you got no argument from me, but IBM is now talking "migration > strategy," So what? Aren't we all migrating from older technology to newer technology? Isn't Microsoft also talking "migration strategy"? > and the intended migration is _away_ from OS/2, not toward it. The migration is toward the future. > Rumor has it that official support will be dumped in three years. Rumors and more rumors. > Would you still keep using it after IBM dumped it? As long as it works. What's to make it stop working? Of course, you're presupposing that IBM will dump it. As long as big business continues to use it, IBM would be foolish to antagonize big customers.
MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT Cube? References: <36C77AFE.E2CD39B9@crl.dec.com> From: sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Sven Droll) Message-ID: <36c7f88c.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> Date: 15 Feb 99 10:35:56 GMT Kamau Wanguhu <kamau@crl.dec.com> wrote: >Is there a version of linux that runs on the NeXT hardware. I had >heard of a version that could be used with BOOTP but can not seem to >find it anywhere. > >No flames please. :> I found two links for Linux/NeXTstep: http://ftp.zabbo.net/linux/next http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Peaks/7420 greets Sven -- Sven Droll __ ______________________________________________________/ / ______ __ sdroll@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de / /_/ ___/ please remove the NOSPM from my reply-address /_ _/ _/ =====\_/======= LOGOUT FASCISM! ___________________________________________________________________ NeXT-mail or MIME welcome ;-)
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 15 Feb 1999 11:27:20 GMT Organization: Omni Development, Inc. Message-ID: <7a90ao$e4t$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> References: <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <36C4927F.31BFC6EB@psca.com> <36c51f88.55527006@news.icx.net> mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) wrote: > If ObjC is not supported, then any YB developer that uses > it now will pay later to convert their entire code base to Java. You're jumping to the conclusion that YB developers currently using Obj-C would still find the environment compelling if Obj-C were gone. If we didn't find Obj-C a very compelling superior of Java (for our purposes), we wouldn't be using it. (I'm not commenting on whether or not it _will_ disappear - it seems completely obvious to me that it can't disappear in the near or mid term, though Apple may or may not find it compelling to market Obj-C.) I'm not going to make a broad statement on what other developers should do, but certainly for many of us Obj-C has compelling strengths vs Java (and I am _not_ referring to existing codebase issues). > Furthermore, there are YB-based businesses already trying to "make a > profit" and are apparently being squashed by Apple. I think I could come up with some exceptions to that statement. -- andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
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From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 12 Feb 1999 13:40:17 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 1999 13:40:17 GMT On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:32:38 GMT, Michael.Peck@ericsson.com <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >It's only bad if you have better options. The not-so-long-ago DBA craze >produced a lot of people with the skills you mentioned, and a virtual >mountain of hand-tuned SQL code. No combination of EOF expertise and >WebObjects licenses is going to fix that, and the philosophy presented of >"dump your SQL and move to WebObjects" is just the sort of trouble that >causes Windows NT migrations en masse. So you're saying that there is never a good reason to dump backwards compatibility? If EOF/EOM can cut down on the time it takes maintain large enterprise databases systems, and that savings more than offsets the cost of dumping code that has become more expense to maintain, then this would be a smart more. >RogueWave's DBTools.h++ product works with existing codebases to streamline >the creation of new N-tier designs. Since you get a source license when you >buy the product, and DBTools.h++ is fundamentally about *producing* >hand-editable code that does the necessary job, Yes, and EOF is about producing Objects _without code_ that greatly simplifies the process of defining business logic, and creating interfaces to that logic. I guess if what you want is _lines and lines of code_ RW is the way to go. If you want to cut down on the time it takes to build and maintain large databases, EOM/EOF is the way to go. >it fits in well with the >existing piles and piles of C, C++, and SQL code that currently makes >enterprise systems tick. No it doesn't fit in well. Every large C++ system I've seen where a new 3rd party lib was added after the code was started suffers from what I call "Object Disorienting Programming" When you build from a set of 3rd party libs you indubitable end up with some overlap in those libs (ie, each has a string and set class) The larger the libs, the greater the scope of the overlap and the greater the problems that overlap causes. Ok, now you have your DB class lib, your template lib (for things like sets, dictionaries, et al) and your UI lib for GUI work. So what do your programmers do? You really can't build a superset of the libs, since the overlapping objects won't be strictly similar. You can't build a strict subset since the overlap is in the very common classes, and the reason you bought the libs was for the higher level stuff. No one ever gets this right, though some get it less wrong than others. They build a new classlib derived from those parent libs with the goal of providing more useful Objects. Well, since the three libs aren't built from the same base objects, they don't quite fit in. So you need a few "special cases" here and there while the App grows. The more the App grows, the more "special cases" you need. A few years pass, then you end up with DBString, DBAString and RepString classes that only the guys who've been around for a while fully understand. You have DBTable, DBTMTable, DBRollUpTable, DBFBondTable and DBTSTable classes that no one knows what to do with. And it gets more and more disoriented as time goes by. Why does DBRollUpTable use DBAStrings when all the other RollUp classes use RepStrings? Why is it the only Table that uses DBTBondFloatCalcs? I've seen a ton of C++ Apps follow this progression. The first things I do when I get called in on an App like this is count the number of String classes. The record so far was eight. After a while the only people you can get to work on it are consultants who don't care about the politics involved with the project as long as the checks clear. The one thing that NeXT did perfectly, was build a great set of low level generic classes that are easy to use and extend. (Delphi does come close) When you have all your libs built from the same foundation, adding new libs is a hell of a lot less work. > Politically speaking, it works for managers and DBAs >who aren't being asked to adopt a completely new approach. Sometimes a new approach is needed for progress to occur. > Coupled with a >presentation-like layer such as RW-Metro, it seems more like the sort of >product enterprises are looking for than WebObjects does. Huh? Then explain the growing popularity of WO and RAD tools in general. It looks to me that the Linux (and much of the Unix market) crowd are the only ones that aren't moving to RAD for App development.
From: tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com (Tim Hanson) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: Men Friendly Message-ID: <36cc0ddb.457146272@news.globalfrontiers.com> References: <36c7bd94.436591953@news.globalfrontiers.com> <7a8gcp$he7@news.Hawaii.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:27:13 EDT Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:10:35 GMT tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu wrote: >tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com writes: > >> Okay, you got no argument from me, but IBM is now talking "migration >> strategy," > >So what? Aren't we all migrating from older technology to newer technology? >Isn't Microsoft also talking "migration strategy"? > >> and the intended migration is _away_ from OS/2, not toward it. > >The migration is toward the future. > >> Rumor has it that official support will be dumped in three years. > >Rumors and more rumors. > >> Would you still keep using it after IBM dumped it? > >As long as it works. What's to make it stop working? Of course, you're >presupposing that IBM will dump it. As long as big business continues to >use it, IBM would be foolish to antagonize big customers. <yawn> Okay, no problem. I've been hearing this from OS/2 users for years, until they get fed up with IBM's inaction and format the drive. Before they do, they trumpet all those banks that use it (number shrinking). IBM has issued more press releases about Linux recently than about OS/2!
From: "Joe Malloy" <jmalloy@NOSPAM.hamilton.edu> Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <36c7bd94.436591953@news.globalfrontiers.com> <7a8gcp$he7@news.Hawaii.Edu> Subject: Re: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:29:51 -0500 Message-ID: <36c8132b.0@nntp2.borg.com> Something claiming to be a <tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu> tholened: >So what? Aren't we all migrating from older technology to newer technology? >Isn't Microsoft also talking "migration strategy"? No you don't, Tholen, you won't get away with it, your revisionist history has turned around and bitten you in the arse. While OS/2 received no general updating ("newer techology?"), OS/2 advocates have been beating the drum for years about how it didn't *need* any and how Microsoft *forced* you to buy an upgrade (funny, I haven't seen anyone who was "forced"). No you're trying to make excuses. No go, Tholen! >The migration is toward the future. And what's replacing OS/2 client? Why NT, Linux, or BeOS, of course! >> Rumor has it that official support will be dumped in three years. > >Rumors and more rumors. And speculations and more speculations. Admit it, Tholen, you're talking through your hat! >> Would you still keep using it after IBM dumped it? > >As long as it works. What's to make it stop working? Of course, you're >presupposing that IBM will dump it. As long as big business continues to >use it, IBM would be foolish to antagonize big customers. Nothing will make a properly maintained technology (will it be?), even one as old as OS/2's, stop working on a properly maintained machine as the world of new software and harware passes you by.
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: 15 Feb 1999 07:59:04 -0500 Organization: Quick and Associates Message-ID: <7a95mo$5bv@papoose.quick.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> <36c7275c.398130090@news.globalfrontiers.com> <36c769bf.0@oasis.idirect.com> In article <36c769bf.0@oasis.idirect.com>, Brad BARCLAY <yaztromo@idirect.com> wrote: > Linux doesn't have the same constraints only because of the fight fought >by OS/2 and other non-MS (and non-Linux) adherents to get the DOJ to go after >Microsoft in order to get rid of the per-processor lisence agreement. If we >hadn't, Linux would have been in the exact same situation you describe above - >forcing you to pay the Microsoft tax to get Linux preloaded that OS/2 users >had to pay back before 1995. Don't forget that. I don't understand what you are saying, here. The vast majority of venders still impose the "Microsoft Tax". In direct contradiction to the Microsoft EULA they will neither ship systems without Microsoft Software installed, nor re-imburse buyers who request a rebate. Microsoft states that it is the OEMs responsibility to re-imburse the user. Most EOMs pay a per system royalty to MS and thus repudiate their and of the agreement by refusing to buy out users who will not use the software. I'm interested to see what comes of today's effort - Linux users marching on Microsoft Offices in California to request their money back. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. ) |
From: 00093182@bigred.unl.edu (Josh Hesse) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Sound capabilities Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 15 Feb 1999 14:30:40 GMT Organization: University of No Learning Distribution: world Message-ID: <7a9b2g$gku@crcnis3.unl.edu> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <atticus-2312980302000001@user-38lcbfn.dialup.mindspring.com> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> < Bernhard Scholz (scholz@leo.org) wrote: : Hello, : : could somebody please explain to me, which sound capabilities the : new G3 models offer (what quality, what connectors, tech.specs.) : and whether they are supported under MacOS-X Server? : : I don't find anything about sound mentioned anywhere. Or maybe : this does imply, that you need to by additional hardware to : make the beast "beep", which I don't believe. : Judging from the one I'm looking at right now, the sound hardware consists of a speaker in the front, and mic and headphone jacks in the rear. The preconfigured AV version is probabley different. -Josh -- Do not send mail to this account. Really. "Talk about silly conspiracy theories..." -Wayne Schlitt in unl.general This post (C)1999, Josh Hesse. Ignored material is (C) of the person quoted. |ess|erb|unl|u| (Oo) MYTHOS How's my posting? 1-800-DEV-NULL email: jh|e@h|ie.|.ed| /||\ DREAMLANDS .Sigfile freshness date: 2/12/99
From: mpa@mpacons.ebsi.net (Marco Anglesio) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <36c7bd94.436591953@news.globalfrontiers.com> <7a8gcp$he7@news.Hawaii.Edu> Organization: Ninety percent of everything Followup-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy Message-ID: <slrn7cgu95.qpt.mpa@mpacons.ebsi.net> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:45:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:45:42 EDT On 15 Feb 1999 06:55:21 GMT, tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu <tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu> wrote: >As long as it works. What's to make it stop working? Of course, you're >presupposing that IBM will dump it. As long as big business continues to >use it, IBM would be foolish to antagonize big customers. I doubt that they'd dump it outright, but they'd probably push support of OS/2 away from their own business core and down to solutions providers. No doubt maintaining OS/2 installs will provide some consultants with a pretty penny in revenue as the install base gradually shrinks. marco -- ,--------------------------------------------------------------------------. > Marco Anglesio | It's more than magnificent; < > mpa@the-wire.com | it's mediocre. < > http://www.the-wire.com/~mpa | --Samuel Goldwyn < `--------------------------------------------------------------------------'
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From: Sean Luke <seanl@scruffy.cs.umd.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Learn The Secrets Of Classified Advertising 6731 [1/2] Date: 15 Feb 1999 22:23:45 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Message-ID: <7aa6ph$bsp$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <Ve0y2.6887$lp5.1772@news.rdc1.tn.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 1999 22:23:45 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.5 (sun4u)) Wow, and this is just the first of a two-parter! Can't wait! Sean
From: nospam@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:29:57 GMT Organization: ICX Online, Inc. Message-ID: <36c8b43d.1177286@news.icx.net> References: <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <36C4927F.31BFC6EB@psca.com> <36c51f88.55527006@news.icx.net> <7a90ao$e4t$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 00:27:34 GMT andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com wrote: >mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) wrote: > >> If ObjC is not supported, then any YB developer that uses >> it now will pay later to convert their entire code base to Java. > >You're jumping to the conclusion that YB developers currently using Obj-C >would still find the environment compelling if Obj-C were gone. If we didn't >find Obj-C a very compelling superior of Java (for our purposes), we wouldn't >be using it. (I'm not commenting on whether or not it _will_ disappear - it >seems completely obvious to me that it can't disappear in the near or mid >term, though Apple may or may not find it compelling to market Obj-C.) The point is what happens if you embrace ObjC now as a YB developer and find Apple doesn't officially support it in MacOS X, or future versions of MacOS X Server? Apple has to spend time/money implementing any future API's in ObjC. Apple may find it more economical and politically correct (i.e. acceptable for marketing aimed at current MacOS developers) to only support Java. How many lowest-level API's are object-oriented in MacOS X? Is ObjC really required or just a bit nicer than other alternatives? Does any Java API require an ObjC interface as a prerequisite? Why do believe you can count on ObjC as a bridge to any future MacOS platform given what has happened with Apple and NeXT to date? You apparently are willing to take the risk -- I am absolutely not willing because I think Apple wants to dump ObjC since it was not, when first presented, and is still not compelling to current MacOS developers. >> Furthermore, there are YB-based businesses already trying to "make a >> profit" and are apparently being squashed by Apple. > >I think I could come up with some exceptions to that statement. Sure, Stone and Omni come to mind, but don't you think there should be more than a handful of companies that would find this "superior" platform financially rewarding? Michael McCulloch
From: osbo082@ibm.net (BobO) Message-ID: <Yqzh521VLZKl-pn2-EJFzLOKilpen@slip129-37-242-237.ca.us.ibm.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36c8b3e2.3088609@news-server> <918694158.729182801@news.hevanet.com> <36c96590.6850430@news-server> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: 12 Feb 1999 15:32:20 GMT Organization: IBM Global Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:15:13, sdenbes1@san.rr.com (Steven C. Den Beste) said: |On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:45:22 -0800, Jeff Freedman added this to Deja News: | |>On Mon, 08 Feb 1999, Steven C. Den Beste wrote: |> |>>It's not obvious that they're *contributing* anything to the Linux cause, |>>except perhaps legitimization. |> |>Well, they've already contributed REXX and the Jikes JAVA compiler. |> |>Anyway, I don't see why a WPS port to Linux has to be free or even open-source. |> I'd be happy to pay $60 or so for it if its well-done, and I imagine many |>others would as well. | |We keep running into one roadblock. Let's see, how does it go? | |profit = revenue - expense. | |If expense > revenue | then profit < 0 | |If profit < 0 | then the shareholders sue. | |IBM will not embark on such a project unless they have a clear expectation |before they begin that they can make a profit off of it. They are LEGALLY |OBLIGATED to take this attitude. | |And despite what OS/2 users think, there is not universal acknowledgement |that WPS is the best UI since Saint Babbage lived. If there's one rule which |is universally true of the Linux community, it's that they collectively |agree about virtually nothing regarding esthetics. | |Profitability of such a port would be a crapshoot. It's virtually impossible |to guess how well it would sell, and IBM doesn't take those kinds of |chances. You are probably right. In order to get more than an 80% market in anything you probably have to break the law and conspire to monopolize.
From: tholenAntiSpam@ifa.hawaii.edu Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:56:06 GMT Organization: IFA B111 Message-ID: <7a9u4m$j05@news.Hawaii.Edu> References: <36cc0ddb.457146272@news.globalfrontiers.com> tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com writes: >>> Okay, you got no argument from me, but IBM is now talking "migration >>> strategy," >> So what? Aren't we all migrating from older technology to newer >> technology? Isn't Microsoft also talking "migration strategy"? Note: no response. >>> and the intended migration is _away_ from OS/2, not toward it. >> The migration is toward the future. >>> Rumor has it that official support will be dumped in three years. >> Rumors and more rumors. >>> Would you still keep using it after IBM dumped it? >> As long as it works. What's to make it stop working? Of course, you're >> presupposing that IBM will dump it. As long as big business continues to >> use it, IBM would be foolish to antagonize big customers. > <yawn> Okay, no problem. I've been hearing this from OS/2 users for years, I've been hearing predictions of death for OS/2 for years. Hasn't happened yet. > until they get fed up with IBM's inaction and format the drive. What alleged inaction? Warp Server for e-business is due out soon. > Before they do, they trumpet all those banks that use it (number > shrinking). Evidence, please. > IBM has issued more press releases about Linux recently than about OS/2! Irrelevant; how does that indicate OS/2's alleged impending death?
From: sal@panix.com (Sal Denaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 16 Feb 1999 00:52:33 GMT Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Message-ID: <7aafgh$hgm$1@news.panix.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <7a1mse$ek5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a280k$ufu$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36C4B283.90477227@ericsson.com> <7a4ouu$oda$1@news.panix.com> <36C61294.46D604E7@nstar.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 00:52:33 GMT On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:02:28 -0600, Michael J. Peck <mjpeck@nstar.net> wrote: >Sal Denaro wrote: >> How much do you know about WO or EOF in the first place? From the looks >> of this one would think that you know almost nothing about the product >> at all. >Very little, indeed. Then why enter this thread in the first place? > I posted in response to Chuck's comments, not >yours. What's your beef? I don't have any "beef" with you at all. You have made a number of statements that are wrong and I posted corrections, and provided links to supporting statements. At no point in this thread have I attacked you, insulted you for having a particular opinion or done anything of that nature. While I'm at it, please show where I have _ever_ objected to any opinion you have had. While I might disagree with your conclusions, or the process you used to come to those conclusions, I've never attacked you (or anyone else) based on personal opinions (something you do fairly regularly) >> Were you unaware that C++ can be used by ObjC apps? >Of course, but not the other way around. You missed the word >"integration", or what? Also not true. >> If you don't understand how having a solid, well thought out set of generic >> classes prevents code bloat; specifically the proliferation of special >> classes, you should not be in this conversation at all. >The wheel is still spinning, but the hamster is dead, apparently. You >barely even read what I wrote; must've been looking for choice bits to >use in picking another of your little pissing fights. I read your posts and responded to your statements. I even qualified my objections to your statements with references and/or examples to demonstrate why I objected to your statements. So far all you've done it respond to my statements with insults. You have yet to provide any reference or example to demonstrate that either 1) WO forces you to lose compatibility 2) Rouge Wave provides better backwards compatibility or better migration options than EOF for enterprise Apps If you can not provide references or examples to demonstrate those points then just admit it and drop out of the conversation. Posting a string of personal insults does nothing but kill what little credibility you have left in this newsgroup.
Subject: Re: ars-technica reviews OSXS Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <hugh-150219991612401378@189.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> In-Reply-To: <hugh-150219991612401378@189.minneapolis-06-07rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> From: email@end.of.post (Raymond Lutz) Message-ID: <3q3y2.236$Vb7.620@wagner.videotron.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:59:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:59:43 EDT On 02/15/99, Hugh Johnson wrote: > >http://ars-technica.com/reviews/1q99/os-x-first-1.html > Yup, and did you see the blurb about Yellow Box? from http://ars-technica.com/bbs/messages/3124.html : "Yeah, I didn't say anything about Yellow Box because the Apple reps seemed reluctant to comment on any of the details. I believe one of them said that the actual shipping product was still not completely determined." SEE? I told you! YB is mort, tot, muerto, dead! They don't even know if it will ship with MOX Server! --> 8^) <-- -- Raymond Lutz - 9bit.qc.ca@lutzray - www.9bit.qc.ca/~$myusername - "Les 400 plus fortunes individus de la planete possedent autant que 2.3 MILLIARDS des plus pauvres reunis"
From: Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT Cube? Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:27:03 +0000 Message-ID: <7648a7.3r.ln@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk> References: <36C77AFE.E2CD39B9@crl.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:10:48 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980226 (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.36 (i586)) In comp.sys.next.misc Kamau Wanguhu <kamau@crl.dec.com> wrote: > Is there a version of linux that runs on the NeXT hardware. I had heard > of a version that could be used with BOOTP but can not seem to find it > anywhere. I'm unaware of a Linux, but there is a NetBSD port at a fairly early stage of maturity. Plan 9 (...from Bell Labs, not Outer Space) also runs on NeXT hardware... a fun OS to experiment with if you get the chance. pete -- Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk) ``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas''
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 16 Feb 1999 03:57:31 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7aaqbb$688$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <36C4927F.31BFC6EB@psca.com> <36c51f88.55527006@news.icx.net> <7a90ao$e4t$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <36c8b43d.1177286@news.icx.net> In-Reply-To: <36c8b43d.1177286@news.icx.net> On 02/15/99, Michael McCulloch wrote: >>> Furthermore, there are YB-based businesses already trying to >>>"make a > profit" and are apparently being squashed by Apple. > >>I think I could come up with some exceptions to that statement. > >Sure, Stone and Omni come to mind, but don't you think there should >be more than a handful of companies that would find this "superior" >platform financially rewarding? Actually, I'd be much more interested in your examples of companies that are being squashed by Apple. That implies a purposeful action. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: "Marc J. Driftmeyer" <mdrift@psca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:15:40 -0800 Organization: Platinum Technologies Inc. Message-ID: <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking for myself and not who I work for or anyone else, I am personally a former employee of both NeXT Software Inc and Apple Computer Inc and I still have a NeXT Cube and Openstep for Mach running on Intel and WinNT as well. I most certainly will be running MacOS X Server and X when it is available. I personally amd deciding on whether to wait for my system purchases to be bought after WWDC or wait until September when Apple releases their new solutions. No way would I migrate away. The tools and the User Experience will just get better and damn the OS is just too damn good to not want to use and the power within MacOS X Server is awesome. It will be seen. jeff wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, could anyone give me a feel for where most of the > NeXT users migrating? (and any reasons if possible) > > Are people moving to OSX? Over to NT? Unix/Linux? (Be?) I know several > people who are moving to NT because they spent the last several years > running NeXT on PC and don't want to move hardware platforms (again). Many > of the people that I've met who were die-hard NeXT users aren't moving to > OSX, which puzzles me a bit. > > Thanks for any responses. > -jeff -- Marc J. Driftmeyer Consultant Platinum Technologies Inc. Enterprise Business Solutions 11100 NE 8th Street, Suite 400, Bellevue, WA 98004 425.688.9463 Fax 425.688.9497 www.platinum.com marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com
Message-ID: <36C48820.2EAF545C@home.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari=AE?= <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards References: <36C1D5F5.63C517F3@ericsson.com> <F6yHGx.CLs@T-FCN.Net> <36C1F8CB.B7533802@ericsson.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> <WyXw2.349$h3.80541@homer.alpha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:00:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:00:40 PDT Hey Ron, take a guess at why specs have version numbers. ari Ron Peterson wrote: > Forrest Cameranesi (SPAMLESSforrest@west.net) wrote: > : Apple *couldn't* financially; if they had, they would have gone out of > : business. But they *could* technically; if they wanted to, and didn't > : worry about going out of business, they could have easilly made CHRP MBs. > > I would think that CHRP MBs would now be obsolete, having required > ISA card slots and not providing for USB and FireWire. > > Ron
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CHRP- and PReP-compliant motherboards Date: 12 Feb 99 13:22:47 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2E9DBAA-3B69F@206.165.43.43> References: <SPAMLESSforrest-1002991343470001@term5-4.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy > >Apple *couldn't* financially; if they had, they would have gone out of >business. But they *could* technically; if they wanted to, and didn't >worry about going out of business, they could have easilly made CHRP MBs. I believe that the current crop of MB's *IS* CHRP -sans the PC-ish stuff. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-ID: <36C4927F.31BFC6EB@psca.com> From: "Marc J. Driftmeyer" <mdrift@psca.com> Organization: Platinum Technologies Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:48:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:48:46 EDT Having worked for both NeXT Software Inc and Apple Computer Inc I can say the following with confidence: Speaking from experience at one time of actually being from the inside and supporting customers in Openstep Development Tools and listening very closely to Developers requests (I mean legacy MacOS Developers in this case) they could currently give a rats butt about Yellow. Time to market on this modern based OS is crucial for these existing MacOS developers if they actually want to stay in business and not see their market share dwindle. Adobe, Macromedia and Microsoft to name but three said in short, either offer us a transition path that allows our applications to run not just within the Blue box but within MacOS X Server and MacOS X natively or we walk. Hence, Carbon was born. Your transition API that will bring future releases and more developers of MacOS applications and even Windows applications. The future version of applications will take time and investment for third party developers because of the fact that Yellow Box applications are written natively in Objective-C or if you prefer less performance and near complete API's you can write them in Java. Now personally, I know for a fact there are more coders in Java than Objective-C. Like do you think so? So since Java was to appeal to the C++ coder more so than to the Objective-C coder you can see why Yellow Box and WebObjects tools are touting Java moreso than Objective-C. It is called mindshare and marketing. If you are a company and your business model is for profit, you see what in the short term can maintain your profit margins and then you invest a certain amount of time and resources into writing your future versions or future applications in Yellow box that will take advantage of the nifty power that comes from those brilliant NeXT Engineers and Apple Engineers who rolled into working on the Yellow box Tools. Bottom Line. Consumers want version 6 of Photoshop whether it is K2 or not but they want it on the Mac. They do not want to see it first released on Windows98/NT and then 6 to 8 months later it is released on MacOS X /X Server in native Yellow Box. They won't wait that long and it is a huge risk on any third party developer's part to devote all their resources to rewriting their products in Yellow Box and watch their own profits go into the toilet. In the end, Apple would go in the toilet as well. So have no fear that Yellow Box is being dumped. If Yellow Box were ever being dumped then guess what, "MacOS X and MacOS X Server would be dumped". What do you think they use to build the freakin' operating system?, Codewarrior? Its all Objective-C and Java for some of the Applications bundled with MacOS X Server and MacOS X. Of course the low level microkernel and filesystem stuff is in C. But the point is why doesn't everyone start looking at the Market space and look through there peripherals instead of being so damn tunnel visioned. -Sincerely, Marc J. Driftmeyer I DO NOT SPEAK FOR MY EMPLOYER PLATINUM TECHNOLOGIES. THIS IS STRICTLY MY OWN OPINIONS!!! Scott Anguish wrote: > > On 02/11/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: > > When Mac OS X Server was announced and Steve made the > > mistake of not putting Blue Box on the slides.. they > > freaked hugely. > > > >Of course they did; not showing the Blue Box cast doubt on it's > >presence in Mac OS X Server. > > Not any reasonable amount of doubt. And certainly nothing > worth the BS that was spewed. > > They freaked in this case because Carbon/Mac OS wasn't > mentioned. If YB had actually been mentioned.. then they would have > gone 100% balistic.. even though Mac OS still exists on its own > platform, on millions of machines. > > Not that Blue Box is even relevant to this release in any real > fashion (considering its focus).. > > <snip> > > >We have evidence that that makes Carbon developers nervous. Of > >course it does. But when have we seen Carbon developers freak out > >when Yellow Box is being promoted while Carbon is being promoted > >even more? > > That is what you're seeing in the above case. > > Mac OS X Server (a YB platform) was mentioned without > mentioning Carbon or Blue Box, and they freaked. Even though they > still have a platform with millions of potential users... and VERY > STRONG messages of the future of Carbon. And keep in mind that Mac OS > X Server is priced way out of the average users reach. > > This is why Apple is doing what they're doing. > > That is why it will be Carbon, Carbon, Carbon until Mac OS X > ships. > > -- > Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> > Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information > <URL:http://www.stepwise.com> -- Marc J. Driftmeyer Consultant Platinum Technologies Inc. Enterprise Business Solutions 11100 NE 8th Street, Suite 400, Bellevue, WA 98004 425.688.9463 Fax 425.688.9497 http://www.platinum.com marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:54:58 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7a24et$r8v$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a1b00$2nn$1@news.panix.com> <x0Yw2.350$h3.81055@homer.alpha.net> In article <x0Yw2.350$h3.81055@homer.alpha.net>, rpeterson@msn.globaldialog.com (Ron Peterson) wrote: > Sal Denaro (sal@panix.com) wrote: >: So you're saying that there is never a good reason to dump backwards >: compatibility? > > A migration path needs to be supplied. No company is willing to start > a mass conversion of systems to a new technology, if it can't back out > (except for those willing to buy SAP). Heck, EOF can function _as_ a migration tool. It's entirely possible to write to multiple heterogenous databases using EOF. With EOModeller, you can verify that two different databases (with different DB adaptors) present the same "content" by verifying that your business logic (objects, queries) behaves the same. >: If EOF/EOM can cut down on the time it takes maintain large enterprise >: databases systems, and that savings more than offsets the cost of dumping >: code that has become more expense to maintain, then this would be a >: smart more. > > Most database systems are small and don't require sophisticated > technology. Care to define your terms...what's a "small" database, and what's "sophisticated" technology? >: Yes, and EOF is about producing Objects _without code_ that greatly >: simplifies the process of defining business logic, and creating interfaces >: to that logic. > > Code, or at least human and machine readable documentation, is always > needed to get a robust system implementation. The .plist files within a .eomodeld are perfectly human-readable. They simply define the mapping between entities within the database(s) and the class types (in Java or Obj-C) that correspond, and the relationships between these objects. [ ... ] >: When you build from a set of 3rd party libs you indubitable end up with >: some overlap in those libs (ie, each has a string and set class) The >: larger the libs, the greater the scope of the overlap and the greater >: the problems that overlap causes. > > Are you saying that WebObjects and Yellow Box don't allow 3rd party > libraries? Of course they do. Sal's point was in the context of "problems with 3rd party libs in C++".... > : The one thing that NeXT did perfectly, was build a great set of low level > : generic classes that are easy to use and extend. (Delphi does come close) > : When you have all your libs built from the same foundation, adding new > : libs is a hell of a lot less work. > > This might work if we can count on the classes being done right in > the first place. Next did change the class library going from > NextStep to OpenStep. How can application be kept current with > the latest class library without a lot of work? First, the older classes from NEXTSTEP continued to work under OPENSTEP. Secondly, one serious revision of the class frameworks in a decade is hardly an onerous burdern to maintaining compatibility. NeXT and now Apple is hardly perfect at maintaining backwards compatibility, but they haven't been doing badly at it, either. >: Sometimes a new approach is needed for progress to occur. > > Are you suggesting Java? If you like. JDBC and Java Beans aren't as mature as EOF and DO, but their fundamental capabilities are comparible. Or you could write WOF/EOF code using Java if you like. -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 12 Feb 1999 21:59:35 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> Message-ID: <19990212165935.05296.00000701@ng23.aol.com> Then again, maybe Stephane will be happy with Mac OS 8.5.1--I'm testing it out at my workplace and have been reasonably impressed. The only application crashes have been controlled (restart possible) from QuickDraw/GX demo apps (and when printing from PhotoShop--this latter may have been a complete lockup). The only other operational difficulty has been an occasional -42 Can't open any more files error. Anyone know how to configure it to open more files? I've asked in comp.sys.mac.system--please post there. Thanks! The interface is somewhat improved, wish I could figure out how to enlarge the icons in the Application Switcher window, though. Anyone know when Adobe and Macromedia will cough up updates which enable Navigation Services? Also, anyone know how to make Greg's Browser sort the files on an NT Server? With these changes, I at least won't be too likely to put my fist through the keyboard. My congratulations to Avie Tevanian and co. for having made the Mac OS grow up enough to be (possibly, barely) tolerable. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 12 Feb 1999 18:44:42 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7a2eda$inc$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 1999 23:45:05 GMT In article <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu>, FILTER@colorado.edu (jeff) wrote: > Just out of curiosity, could anyone give me a feel for where most of the > NeXT users migrating? (and any reasons if possible) > Are people moving to OSX? Over to NT? Unix/Linux? (Be?) I'm probably going to OS X, with a hedge of MkLinux/LinuxPPC or perhaps OpenBSD in case Apple manages to destroy too much of what originally made me love NEXTSTEP. The free Unixes just don't yet offer as nice or robust of a user or developer experience as I think OS X will. Be holds little interest for me (few compelling techincal advantages over Linux for my needs, less momentum, no open source), and I certainly have no desire nor need to switch to Windows. I'm also about to buy a new computer (around the same timeframe that the OS X consumer release is scheduled), so I thought I'd give Mac hardware a try for once. > Many of the people that I've met who were die-hard NeXT users aren't moving > to OSX, which puzzles me a bit. Probably because they don't want to make a commitment to switch away from Intel hardware for whatever reason (cost, lack of opportunity, distrust of Apple, lingering dependency on Windows, need to run other operating systems, etc.). There's also the feeling that the things that made NEXTSTEP great (user experience, OpenStep APIs) are going to die at Apple's hand.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Why Mac OS X will fail. Message-ID: <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:04:09 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:05:41 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Now that I got your attention... After some thought I'm going out on a limb and seriously questioning Mac OS X as a viable platform. Mac OS X is "modern" to Mac users but falls well short of addressing many problems plaguing most users of today or in many cases of yesterday as well. I'm speculating of course but from what I'm aware of these things will be a problem for Mac OS X users. I post this hoping more in-tune OPENSTEP users can offer a perspective on how I may have missed NeXT-derived solutions to these issues. One problem that's still far, far too common is that of data exchange. Filters. Here we are in 1999 and applications are still supplying their own second-rate import/export filters for a limited range of formats that a given developer cares to support. It's little better on the clipboard end. I'm tired of lowest common denominator pastes, lost formatting and all those things. Even PLAIN TEXT copied from Netscape into Word is a mess! Ever try a system-wide find of text string in all your PDFs? Don't bother, at least on Windows. I honestly don't know of any way Mac OS X attempts to address the problem of basic data exchange. I think, but are not certain, BeOS attempts to address the filter issue. I'll note that OpenDoc offered a solution as did Taligent's technology. Both are generally seen as quite dead. Windows is a mess. Another problem I find is window management when multitasking. I'm not aware of any improved way Mac OS X will deal with the proliferation of windows. The current Mac OS, imho, has a multitasking UI with a much too coarse a grain when it comes to dealing with windows. Everything's handled on a per-app basis. I should be able to view just the windows/documents I need without having to fool with collapsed windows which can stack up and get lost. BeOS' Tracker has a somewhat novel idea in dealing with windows by grouping them in a pop-up off the app they belong to. OS/2 has the all powerful Window List giving you near total control over every individual window and neatly organized by app as a convenience not as a barrier. Windows is a mess. Yet a third problem is the inability to mix-and-match tool sets. There's no pleasure in needing WordPerfect and Word, for example, to get a document together because one does some things better than the other. This is compounded by the first problem mentioned. If I want WordPro's revision marking and team editing support but need some special feature of Word or WordPerfect I've got to start the document in the later and import into the former or possibly use OLE embedding which is no panacea. On the graphics end there's no reason to need two bitmap editors because one is better at brute force pixel-pushing while the other has support for layers and more. Components. OpenDoc and Taligent's technologies were meant to solve this. I don't see OPENSTEP-derived Services solve this problem. Microsoft seems to be moving this way in a slow fashion with Office 2000, for example. It's ironic Mac OS X, the replacement for the failed Copland project, will actually be behind where Copland (with OpenDoc and later CommonPoint) was meant to take Mac OS on the user end. There's no evidence the "advanced Macintosh UI" is anything more than Mac OS with some NeXT features (Terminal.app, Services) added in. It's sad to realize user-level problems identified by Apple and its partner(s) which were supposed to be addressed around 4 years ago by some past projected time lines won't be addressed by the end of the decade. There are a few other problems I'm thinking may be commonplace but I'm still working to define what those are. I thought I'd post and let you take a crack at explaining why I'm wrong, if I have missed something in the upcoming Mac OS X. Do you need a 500MB install of UNIX with a Mac UI just to face the same problems had a decade ago with OS/2 Standard Edition 1.1? I'll remind everyone the NeXT technology is old. It may be good but it's old and it doesn't have nearly the lead it did back in '89 or even '94. I'm disappointed the NeXT technology seemed to have stagnated, resting on its laurels and having suffered neglect from NeXT Software. IMHO it's bad enough Apple's avoiding Intel support and sending mixed-messages about the Yellow Box (essentially OPENSTEP's) future. However, to see it potentially snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over a little much Mac-centric view seems like the whole Copland/OpenDoc/Taligent/no clones/clones history all over again. To win (and keep) converts to the Macintosh hardware, the *only* Mac OS X platform, Mac OS X needs to be more than a "modern" or "buzzword compliant" _Mac OS_, it needs to be modern in the [user] sense that Apple meant when it started the Pink project in '86 and in the sense IBM and Apple meant for the partnership in Taligent. --Ed.
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:27:09 GMT Organization: NEXTTOYOU Message-ID: <7a4cld$3bl$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dn65xg.8woh6u1bffyw8N@[192.168.0.2]> NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 1999 17:27:09 GMT lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote: > [*] If it also has good devtools and a RAD dev environment (perhaps > called YB), so much the better, but secondary to PM/PMT (the reason for > the NeXT acquisition) in Mac OS. If PM/PMT really was the reason for the acquisition of NeXT, and YB wasn't, then Apple was unbelievably stupid. PM/PMT is not that much of a deal nowadays, and there would have been lots of options to acquire a (more up-to-date!) UNIX based OS with PM/PMT without having to spent something like $ 400 million. The real treasure Apple bought is YB. I know that the press and those outside of Apple never quite got it (it was *really* ridiculous to hear all that touting about PM/PMT as if this was anything spectacular or worth this amount of money), but if even Apple itself didn't get it, well, then... (Of course, you could argue the real treasure was their new iCEO and the NeXT people he brought with him. But PM/PMT certainly wasn't.) Bye Uli -- _____________________________________________________________________ Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: - D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007 Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042 _____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) Subject: Re: Why Mac OS X will fail. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <F7977B.HBF@T-FCN.Net> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: eadeans@san.rr.com Organization: needs one References: <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:33:10 GMT In <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote: > One problem that's still far, far too common is that of data exchange. > Filters. While not perfect, the Services system and filteredPasteboards solves this to a large degree. For instance if you drop a JPG into an app that only knows TIFF, the machine finds another app on the system that can convert from JPG into TIFF, runs it and gets it to do the convert, then pastes in the TIFF. This is invisible to you, aside from the drive grinding as it starts the other app. > I honestly don't know of any way Mac OS X attempts to address the problem > of basic data exchange. I think you need to read a lot more on the topic then. > the filter issue. I'll note that OpenDoc offered a solution as did Not really, it allowed for stand-in classes to view the item. In reality it didn't work, nor did it help outside OD. > Another problem I find is window management when multitasking. I'm not > aware of any improved way Mac OS X will deal with the proliferation of > windows. For one X allows you to bring any window forward. That means you can have 10 windows open in one app, 10 more in another, and yet have 1 from the first and 1 from the second "in the front", this makes dealing with cut and paste much easier. You can bring them all to the front by "activating" the app via the icon or the app menu. For another the dialogs are non-modal, meaning you can have dialogs up in an app and keep working in other apps. This alone is a huge change. > by grouping them in a pop-up off the app they belong to. I like this idea too, they should add it. > Components. OpenDoc and Taligent's technologies were meant to solve this. But they didn't. Instead you ended up locked into both a proprietary tool set and a propietary file system. I'd say that X's filters and services, limited as they are, work better than anything under OD did. Building true plug-n-play tools is an increadibly difficult proposal. > It's ironic Mac OS X, the replacement for the failed Copland project, will > actually be behind where Copland (with OpenDoc and later CommonPoint) Copeland had nothing to do with CP, and OD was devalued to a large degree. Sorry, you can dream about what Copeland was going to be like, but I had it and it was a joke, nor did it do anything for any of the items you noted above. It was still terribly propietary, based on outdated API's, unsafe and slow. > meant to take Mac OS on the user end. There's no evidence the "advanced > Macintosh UI" is anything more than Mac OS with some NeXT features > (Terminal.app, Services) added in. Yes. > It's sad to realize user-level problems identified by Apple and its > partner(s) which were supposed to be addressed around 4 years ago by some > past projected time lines won't be addressed by the end of the decade. Ed, I used Copeland. I doubt you can say the same. You are wrong. > Do you need a 500MB install of UNIX with a Mac UI just to face the same > problems had a decade ago with OS/2 Standard Edition 1.1? How did OS/2 deal with namespace problems in objects, network wide forwarding, data typing and late binding? I don't think you know what the problems are. > I'll remind everyone the NeXT technology is old. It may be good but it's > old and it doesn't have nearly the lead it did back in '89 or even '94. Actually with the exception of a select few of the Java classes, it does. Specifically the Java analogue to Foundation is excellent, in some ways better than YB's due to the use of inner classes and better name space control. However the rest of the kits are a joke, AWT is idiotic, Java2D can't print, Java3D uses an entirely different model for everything than Java2D etc. > disappointed the NeXT technology seemed to have stagnated, resting on its > laurels and having suffered neglect from NeXT Software. I'm sorry you believe this to be true. > To win (and keep) converts to the Macintosh hardware, the *only* Mac OS X > platform, Mac OS X needs to be more than a "modern" or "buzzword > compliant" Well what buzzwords do you think it needs exactly? > _Mac OS_, it needs to be modern in the [user] sense that Apple meant when > it started the Pink project in '86 Pink was a poor rip off of NeXTSTEP, attempting in C++ which anyone in the OO world at the time knew was doomed to failure. And it died, surprise surprise. Ed, have you programmed under MacOS? How about Copeland? YellowBox? Have you read the developer documentation for the items you talk about above? Can you provide examples? No? Maury
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 16 Feb 1999 15:11:46 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <7ac1ri$r4q$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <36C4927F.31BFC6EB@psca.com> <36c51f88.55527006@news.icx.net> <7a90ao$e4t$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <36c8b43d.1177286@news.icx.net> <7aaqbb$688$1@news.digifix.com> Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: : On 02/15/99, Michael McCulloch wrote: [On the subject of Apple's support for OpenStep developers.] : >Sure, Stone and Omni come to mind, but don't you think there should : >be more than a handful of companies that would find this "superior" : >platform financially rewarding? : : Actually, I'd be much more interested in your examples of : companies that are being squashed by Apple. : That implies a purposeful action. If a giant rolls over on you, does it matter if he meant it? The bottom line is that Apple aquired 'step technology late in 1996. Since then, the opportunities for 'step developers have been limited. There is a WebObjects market, and will soon be a MacOS X Server market, but neither of those extend to the millions of seats needed to sustain a shrink-wrap business model. If MacOS X (client) ships in volume around the end of the year, that will be the end of a three year dry spell for 'step application developers. How many businesses have survived that three year dry spell and remain commited to their Yellow Box applicaions? A better question: Is Apple still a better bet than GNUstep? John PS - Those unfamiliar with GNUstep may be interested in this introductary essay: http://rob.current.nu/next2000
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:11:19 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?= Message-ID: <1dnacuf.almaey17lenkN@mp-210-203.daxnet.no> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6mVu2.50336$641.29673@news.san.rr.com> <79i17j$9bm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <19990206141605.23040.00000777@ng-fi1.aol.com> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 WillAdams <willadams@aol.com> wrote: > > "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: > > > >> Is iCEO Steve still using his ThinkPad with OPENSTEP Intel? > [SNIP] > Moreover, I don't see how he's going to get all of those Concurrence.app > presentations off of it in useful form with a reasonable effort. > > William > He used it at WWDC `98, cause you can see the NeXT folder icons in the background of his presentation (on the ARPLE June `98 CD). Which leads me to believe that he wasx doing it deliberately, since he`s a total control-freak when it comes to these presentations (or so I`ve understood). ;-) Hmmmm... Those black choppers hovering outside my window seem to have some sort of cube logo on them... -- Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: tsivertsen@c2i.net (Thomas Sivertsen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:11:16 +0100 Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?h=F8h=3F/Asylant?= Message-ID: <1dnacdu.1siap5o1jxqxt8N@mp-210-203.daxnet.no> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <79i1tb$a3a$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79j738$ccn$1@news.digifix.com> <79kpqd$cgo$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36BE4B3F.A7C4376B@mail.vision.net.au> <79ooln$iki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <tbrown-0902990920290001@da215.ecr.net> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 Ted Brown <tbrown@netset.com> wrote: > In article <79ooln$iki$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca > wrote: > > >I thought that they had said this in some sort of interview but I can't > >find a reference so I might be mistaken. Also, the Finder in Mac OS X > >Server is, of course, written in YB because Carbon is not available. > > I was paying attention to this issue, watching the quotes that came out of > Apple. I too remember reading a quote that OS X Finder is a Carbonized > Finder. > > I looked briefly for the quote, but didn't find it. This seems odd since a Carbonized Finder won`t do anything that a YB Finder cannot duplicate. The functionality and the user experience will be roughly the same. By roughly I mean there will be additions. Actually, an YB Finder is logical, less time consuming and will give better options for future additions, since the Carbon Finder would be a straight port and would thus bring the old problems along with it. It`s 8 years old, for chrissake! Although you can always trust Apple to do something stupid, you`ve got to give them a little bit of credit. -- Cheers, Thomas Sivertsen tsivertsen@c2i.net
From: Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:00:26 +0100 Organization: nonewhatsoever Message-ID: <1dna0od.7dyxni1f6ukn4N@p3e9c364a.dip.t-online.de> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> <m31zjv2dri.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> wrote: > Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (Lars Träger) writes: > > -> Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? > > No. The kernel source provides an emulator if you don't have the > FPU. Does it work with anything not x86? Or rather, will it work on something that doesn't have a FPU you could emulate (like the ARM) or processors that have a bug that keeps them from emulating the "real" FPU (like the 68LC040 in my LC 475)? Lars T.
From: nospam@nospam!.kom (Steve) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:10:14 GMT Organization: Ohio State University Message-ID: <36c8b688.42810966@nntp.service.ohio-state.edu> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> <m31zjv2dri.fsf@solo.david-steuber.com> <1dna0od.7dyxni1f6ukn4N@p3e9c364a.dip.t-online.de> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 00:09:34 GMT On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:00:26 +0100, Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote: >David Steuber <trashcan@david-steuber.com> wrote: > >> Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (Lars Träger) writes: >> >> -> Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? >> >> No. The kernel source provides an emulator if you don't have the >> FPU. > >Does it work with anything not x86? Or rather, will it work on something >that doesn't have a FPU you could emulate (like the ARM) or processors >that have a bug that keeps them from emulating the "real" FPU (like the >68LC040 in my LC 475)? There are StrongARM versions of Linux available (including commercially available desktops and servers). (http://www.corelcomputer.com/products/index.htm) -Steve ********** "The problem is I have a life. I just can't be the CEO at Apple. I just don't have that to give." -Steve Jobs, July 1997 **********
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:37:07 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <919107426.955840@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1 <7a5ien$7j5$1@news.digifix.com> Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <7a5ien$7j5$1@news.digifix.com>, Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> wrote: > > More the pitty. Should Apple have listted off everything that >was there? Or just what was key to the product marketing? > Hey--they could have done whatever that NeXTSTEP book ("The NeXT Bible"?) did and have an ls -lR of the filesystem. ;-) -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT Cube? Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:37:46 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <919107466.614611@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> References: <36C77AFE.E2CD39B9@crl.dec.com> <36c7f88c.0@uni-wuerzburg.de> Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <36c7f88c.0@uni-wuerzburg.de>, Sven Droll <sdroll@NOSPMmathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote: >Kamau Wanguhu <kamau@crl.dec.com> wrote: >>Is there a version of linux that runs on the NeXT hardware. I had >>heard of a version that could be used with BOOTP but can not seem to >>find it anywhere. >> >>No flames please. :> > >I found two links for Linux/NeXTstep: > >http://ftp.zabbo.net/linux/next >http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Peaks/7420 > There's also NetBSD/next68k: http://www.netbsd.org/ -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:59:26 +0100 Organization: IBM GS Corp. Message-ID: <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> References: <SPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jeff wrote: NIXSPAM> NIXSPAM> Just out of curiosity, could anyone give me a feel for where most of the NIXSPAM> NeXT users migrating? (and any reasons if possible) Switching over to Solaris x86. Slowly, that is. The Rhapsody/MacOSX things I've seen so far were encouraging, the behaviour of Apple discouraging. I'm not going to buy a G3 machine until a useful OS is available. Being ripped off by Apple wrt the Apple developer program doesn't help that. Sorry, I guess I'm what's today called a power user and don't care about the need not to frighten the conservative Mac crowd. A whole generation is making its way from University and Unix exposure into business. Whenever I talked to friends about MacOS X, they lost interest in the moment I mentioned Apple's plans to rip out the Unix environment. I've yet to see a combination that beats Concurrence, Diagram and the NeXTSTEP evironment (tools + DPS, ya know) in terms of power and usability. (I had the pleasure to watch a colleage creating some PowerPoint slides the other day --- what a laugh). We should have made a slogan of that: "It's not the icons, stupid!". For a hobby, I'm going to do work in Java and love the Unix evironment, so Solaris is the way to go for me. At work I'm currently suffering from the NT as promised vs. NT as is conflict. Then, whenever I get back to my black station, I feel a slight depression coming up. Oh, the G3 powerbooks look sexy, though. -- "To conserve energy we will temporarily switch off the light at the end of the tunnel" (I don't employ for my speaker)
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 16 Feb 1999 16:59:08 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <SPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 21:59:22 GMT In article <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM>, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > Whenever I talked to friends about MacOS X, they > lost interest in the moment I mentioned Apple's plans to rip out the > Unix environment. What plans are those? Everything I've heard has pointed toward the Unix environment being available in OS X, perhaps with Terminal.app and some of the command-line utilities being optional installs. Sheesh. Don't drive people away with FUD.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Message-ID: <cdoutyF79poE.292@netcom.com> Sender: cdouty@netcom14.netcom.com Organization: Netcom Online Services, Inc. References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:12:14 GMT In article <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote: >In article <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: > >[cut] > >> But hey, if you don't understand N-tier design and the seperation of data from >> business logic from presentation, or entity-relationship modelling, or get why >> writing raw SQL in your program is really, really bad, that's your lookout. > >It's only bad if you have better options. The not-so-long-ago DBA craze >produced a lot of people with the skills you mentioned, and a virtual >mountain of hand-tuned SQL code. No combination of EOF expertise and >WebObjects licenses is going to fix that, and the philosophy presented of >"dump your SQL and move to WebObjects" is just the sort of trouble that >causes Windows NT migrations en masse. > >RogueWave's DBTools.h++ product works with existing codebases to streamline >the creation of new N-tier designs. Since you get a source license when you >buy the product, and DBTools.h++ is fundamentally about *producing* >hand-editable code that does the necessary job, it fits in well with the >existing piles and piles of C, C++, and SQL code that currently makes >enterprise systems tick. Politically speaking, it works for managers and DBAs >who aren't being asked to adopt a completely new approach. Coupled with a >presentation-like layer such as RW-Metro, it seems more like the sort of >product enterprises are looking for than WebObjects does. Based on purely anecdotal evidence (the best kind on Usenet), I will thumb my nose at DBTools.h++ in comparison to EOF. I was personally involved in a project (as DBA and SysAdmin) which was to move the core of our company from an evil textfiles-as-database system into an Oracle dbms accessed from both WOF/EOF and a C++ program. Since this was a new system we had no legacy code on wither side, however our inhouse developers were all NeXTstep guys. To make a long story short, even with top management rooting for the C++ solution, even with RougueWave's libraries and supposedly expert consultants, the WOF/EOF team finished first and then leveraged their business objects and model to take over the job when the C++ team failed to deliver. This is just one case, and the deck was slightly stacked in Openstep's favor, but it happened nonetheless. -Chris -- Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software cdouty@netcom.com "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
From: dj.supremeANTISPAM@adr.dk (Peter Bjørn Perlsø) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:56:50 +0100 Organization: Customer at Telia Danmark (http://www.telia.dk) Message-ID: <dj.supremeANTISPAM-1602992156510001@t3o103p6.telia.com> References: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> <79lus2$p6r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0802990645350001@elk88.dol.net> <79o0vr$3n8$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0902990817380001@wil99.dol.net> <7a84fc$hlr$7@hecate.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 1999 20:55:12 GMT In article <7a84fc$hlr$7@hecate.umd.edu>, davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) wrote: >Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: >: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. >: Wang) wrote: > >: > Joe Ragosta (joe.ragosta@dol.net) wrote: >: > : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. >: > : Wang) wrote: >: > >: > : > 0.18um is the drawn length of the gate. 0.11um is the effective channel >: > : > length. That doesn't make it a 0.11um process. That makes it a 0.18um >: > : > process with a 0.11um effective channel length. MPR used to use Effective >: > : > channel length as a predictor of process speed. They are now developing >: > : > a new metric, as the junction capacitance now predominate, and effective >: > : > channel lengths no longer become an accurate predictor of process >: > : > performance. >: > >: > : True. But as with the shift to 0.25, Moto beat Intel out of the box. >: > >: > Who beat whom out of what box? Who shipped 0.25um first? When? And >: > Who has a shipping 0.18um now? You're mixing up "announcement" with >: > actual shipping of products. > >: Nope. Moto shipped 0.25 first. > >604e Mach 5, I suppose. G3's were later than P II. > >: As for 0.18, neither of them has it. Moto is supposed to be shipping in >: Q2. Intel will first have it in the PIII laptop chips in Q3 or Q4 >: (according to PC Week). > >There a shrink for G3 in Q2? Where did you hear this from? Mac Observer as I recall, had a story on the PPC roadmap back in dec 1998. There's a 3rd-revision PPC 750 out soon, or by the time G4 ships. It's called "Goldfinger", and it features a dual presician FPU, and a duall MMU, along with a general die shrink. Best Regards, Peter Bjørn Perlsø http://w1.1491.telia.com/~u149100079/ Me, the Mac and the dreaded platform debate. :)
Message-ID: <36CA0D96.E33966CB@psca.com> From: "Marc J. Driftmeyer" <mdrift@psca.com> Organization: Platinum Technologies Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dn65xg.8woh6u1bffyw8N@[192.168.0.2]> <7a4cld$3bl$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <7a4hsd$nod$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:35:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:35:13 EDT Before Everyone makes bold statements about Openstep for Mach being disassembled and only duct-taped back together with BSD4.4 instead of 4.3 please buy a copy of MacOS X Server when it comes out. Apple Bought this technology knowing that they got one hell of a sweet deal. They got mature API's and an extremely robust system. However, they first and foremost needed to save the company from the brink of bankruptcy. Now that the past two years has proven to produce a much leaner, more proactive and quality driven Apple- thanks in part to one side effect of the NeXT acquisition; management that makes the tough decisions and stands by their decisions and moves forward without spinning their wheels. No one can accurately forecast the fickleness of developers. Hell it seems clear to me that everyone wants their SandBox to be the most important one. Well unless we all play in a larger SandBox than we have to wait our turn to be in the spotlight. Their was a hell of alot more wrong with Apple than just an out-dated Operating System and Applications Division. The internal structure was eating away at itself at an alarming pace. They have done one hell of a job going reinventing themselves with a consistent direction. You cannot tell me from a developer's point of view that their is not enough work available in the marketspace to feed yourself and put food and clothing on the table for your loved ones. I understand passion. Passion is what drives one to create an insanely great product and nothing feels worse than taking a dagger in the back. However, if you look at Java and Carbon as your mirror you will avoid feeling the blade. When Apple mentions 18 to 36 months as the time frame they are rolling over to Java that can also be looked in more than one way. They are definitely not putting all their eggs in one basket. It would be insane to do so. Even if it is a superior choice of language (i.e. Objective-C over Java). If you are not a MacOS Developer transitioning to MacOS X/ X Server and are a NeXT Developer you should know how lean times can become. If you want to survive their is plenty of WebObjects work to be done and I would be glad to forward your resumes onto my Management who is currently not able to fill requests for Openstep and WebObjects Consultants fast enough. YES that previous statement was a blatant attempt at Recruitment, but also being open and truthful. Yes having the advantage of being able to look under the hood for a longtime in the past does give me forsight into the future. Only in one sense. It substantiates my views on the business model Apple has currently adopted- regain market share, to the future business model- release innovation once market share has been secured and the company is in no threat of folding. Steve does not put anything into his Keynotes unless he himself has after long hours of finely picking apart a product that gets presented to him, by Engineering, felt it worthy of his level of quality. One thing about Steve is that he does not like to embarass himself, period. He will not endorse a product that is not ready for primetime. When you question Apple's commitment to Objective-C and YellowBox you forget one factor. The Engineering teams who are the worlds leading Experts in Objective-C are at Apple and were at NeXT. They do not blindly follow the leader. They get their say clearly and their voices heard and believe me they know more so than anyone that Java is immature compared to Objective-C but with the focus on Java in the current marketspace they must provide the best Java solution possible. They work extra long hours to continue to refine and refine Java and Objective-C API's. Please show patience with MacOS X and especially MacOS X Server. There are over 200 incredible minds working on it and they would not still be working on it if their dream of providing the finest OS and Development Tools were going to be compromised. ONCE AGAIN I DO NOT SPEAK FOR MY EMPLOYER, Platinum Technologies Inc. Respectfully Yours, Marc J. Driftmeyer John Jensen wrote: > > Uli Zappe <uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote: > : lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote: > : > [*] If it also has good devtools and a RAD dev environment (perhaps > : > called YB), so much the better, but secondary to PM/PMT (the reason for > : > the NeXT acquisition) in Mac OS. > > : If PM/PMT really was the reason for the acquisition of NeXT, and YB wasn't, > : then Apple was unbelievably stupid. PM/PMT is not that much of a deal > : nowadays, and there would have been lots of options to acquire a (more > : up-to-date!) UNIX based OS with PM/PMT without having to spent something > : like $ 400 million. > > I think the then-management thought they were buying a ready-to-roll OS > with PM/PMT, a next-generation GUI, and much internationalization in > place. I think Apple expect to introduce that OS as a great leap forward. > > That was in December of 1996. > > For whatever reason, the OS _products_ Apple purchased with NeXT were > never marketed. Factors that contributed to that not-to-market decsision > were: > > - The need to accomodate principal Mac OS application vendors > - The need to stay below Microsoft's "competetive threat" radar > - The need to satisfy Apple's in-house Mac OS constituency > - The need to resolve licensing issues. > > It hardly matters now, but the idea of that great leap forward was what > got me interested in the Mac again (after a few years off). > > : The real treasure Apple bought is YB. I know that the press and those > : outside of Apple never quite got it (it was *really* ridiculous to hear > : all that touting about PM/PMT as if this was anything spectacular or > : worth this amount of money), but if even Apple itself didn't get it, > : well, then... > > : (Of course, you could argue the real treasure was their new iCEO and the > : NeXT people he brought with him. But PM/PMT certainly wasn't.) > > The treasure Apple bought was a ready-to-roll OS. The fact that it > contained some good OO technology makes its non-introduction that much > more painful. > > The fact that a ready-to-roll OS was dissassembled to form little more > that a parts-bin for future hacking is a crime. > > Q: How do middle managers divide a working OS? > A: See the Apple OS roadmap. > > John > > PS - Don't anybody tell me all I have to do is wait for MacOS X. I was > here, in December of '96, when this started. I got fed up and called it > as a waste of energy by the Summer Of Redesign (in '97). Waiting for '00 > is way beyond my attention span. -- Marc J. Driftmeyer Consultant Platinum Technologies Inc. Enterprise Business Solutions 11100 NE 8th Street, Suite 400, Bellevue, WA 98004 425.688.9463 Fax 425.688.9497 www.platinum.com marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com
From: davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 17 Feb 1999 01:53:35 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Message-ID: <7ad7ev$a99$3@hecate.umd.edu> References: <36BE6620.F54D4756@tca.com> <79lus2$p6r$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0802990645350001@elk88.dol.net> <79o0vr$3n8$1@hecate.umd.edu> <joe.ragosta-0902990817380001@wil99.dol.net> <7a84fc$hlr$7@hecate.umd.edu> <dj.supremeANTISPAM-1602992156510001@t3o103p6.telia.com> Peter Bjørn Perls (dj.supremeANTISPAM@adr.dk) wrote: : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.DELETE.delete.DELETE@Glue.umd.edu (David T. : Wang) wrote: : >There a shrink for G3 in Q2? Where did you hear this from? : Mac Observer as I recall, had a story on the PPC roadmap back in dec 1998. : There's a 3rd-revision PPC 750 out soon, or by the time G4 ships. It's : called "Goldfinger", and it features a dual presician FPU, and a duall : MMU, along with a general die shrink. Hmm, I've never heard of this one, but given the rumors that had floated around earlier, this rumor might actually have some basis. I recall that IBM had disagreed with MOT with regards to Altivec, and they just wanted to improve G3 a bit, and run it at a faster clock speed.... This sounds like that part, and it even coincides with the schedule of CMOS7S-SOI. However, now that IBM is committed to "G4", I wonder what Apple will do with this part? : Best Regards, : Peter Bjørn Perlsø : http://w1.1491.telia.com/~u149100079/ : Me, the Mac and the dreaded platform debate. :) -- davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam All statements are personal opinions Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland Kyoto, Japan.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Message-ID: <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> Sender: edew@netcom14.netcom.com Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:28:08 GMT In article <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com writes: >Speaking for myself and not who I work for or anyone else, I am >personally a former employee of both NeXT Software Inc and Apple >Computer Inc and I still have a NeXT Cube and Openstep for Mach running >on Intel and WinNT as well. I most certainly will be running MacOS X >Server and X when it is available. I personally amd deciding on whether >to wait for my system purchases to be bought after WWDC or wait until >September when Apple releases their new solutions. > >No way would I migrate away. The tools and the User Experience will >just get better and damn the OS is just too damn good to not want to use >and the power within MacOS X Server is awesome. It will be seen. > Hi Marc. As a former NeXT employee (currently working at Sun), I actually haven't migrated from NeXT that much: I found the legacy opestep interface for Sun and am using it on my desktop machine at work. The openstep Edit.app and Terminal.app are working apps, and I use them instead of the solaris equivalent. Although I don't know exactly what is a solaris equivalent to Edit.app. EDEW
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy From: Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <36CA0288.3BF89F4D@oaai.com> Sender: news@T-FCN.Net Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc. References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <cdoutyF79poE.292@netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:43:04 GMT Chris Douty wrote: > In article <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > <Michael.Peck@ericsson.com> wrote: > >In article <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, > > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: > > > >[cut] > > > >> But hey, if you don't understand N-tier design and the seperation of data from > >> business logic from presentation, or entity-relationship modelling, or get why > >> writing raw SQL in your program is really, really bad, that's your lookout. > > > >It's only bad if you have better options. The not-so-long-ago DBA craze > >produced a lot of people with the skills you mentioned, and a virtual > >mountain of hand-tuned SQL code. No combination of EOF expertise and > >WebObjects licenses is going to fix that, and the philosophy presented of > >"dump your SQL and move to WebObjects" is just the sort of trouble that > >causes Windows NT migrations en masse. > Hey, you don't have to dump it. It's there -- you use it. But that said, it's in your own best interest to realize that glomming more and more onto the wart that you've developed to date is actually detrimental to your long-term goal of building a software environment that you can grow. > > >RogueWave's DBTools.h++ product works with existing codebases to streamline > >the creation of new N-tier designs. Since you get a source license when you > >buy the product, and DBTools.h++ is fundamentally about *producing* > >hand-editable code that does the necessary job, it fits in well with the > >existing piles and piles of C, C++, and SQL code that currently makes > >enterprise systems tick. Politically speaking, it works for managers and DBAs > >who aren't being asked to adopt a completely new approach. Coupled with a > >presentation-like layer such as RW-Metro, it seems more like the sort of > >product enterprises are looking for than WebObjects does. > > Based on purely anecdotal evidence (the best kind on Usenet), I will > thumb my nose at DBTools.h++ in comparison to EOF. I was personally > involved in a project (as DBA and SysAdmin) which was to move the > core of our company from an evil textfiles-as-database system into an > Oracle dbms accessed from both WOF/EOF and a C++ program. Since this was > a new system we had no legacy code on wither side, however our inhouse > developers were all NeXTstep guys. > To make a long story short, even with top management rooting for the C++ > solution, even with RougueWave's libraries and supposedly expert > consultants, the WOF/EOF team finished first and then leveraged their > business objects and model to take over the job when the C++ team failed > to deliver. This is just one case, and the deck was slightly stacked in > Openstep's favor, but it happened nonetheless. We've been involved in this sort of scenario. It was pretty embarassing for the RogueWave team. And it's a story we've seen play over and over again -- quality OPENSTEP software developers delivering where expert <<insert your technology du-jour>> fail. You know, I'd like to claim that we're somehow smarter than them all; that we're a superior breed or something... But it all seems to boil down to intelligent use of tools. We seem to pick our tools well. They seem to pick what's popular. They don't seem to understand the question -- nevermind the answer. Perhaps it makes sealing the deal a bit of an easier task, but it sure does make meeting one's end of the bargain that much more difficult. On a slightly different vector, I think that a telling phrase above is this: "it fits in well with the existing piles and piles of C, C++, and SQL code that currently makes enterprise systems tick" Piles is a good word for it. There seems to be two camps in software development today -- those who feel that reams of code don't impact the maintainability of a software project materially (and who as a result are gung-ho about crazy strongly typed languages and code generation and all the things that go with it) -- and those who seem to realize that the real power in a particular development environment is how much you can say in a minimum number of words. We're building commercial software with a custom software-sized staff. We're not brainiacs or anything like that. We just realize that there's an advantage in working at a higher level. For general programming it's better to work with C than it is to work with assembly. No real revelation, but many production development environments today seem to be fixated on wringing the final few cycles out of a loop, rather than optimizing the software development process. Or they're more interested in promoting a design constraint that's central to their architecture -- security for instance -- than promoting language structures that facilitate good software engineering. Like I say, it seems that some people don't understand the question, nevermind that they can't provide a good answer. In a roundandabout way, what I'm suggesting is this: good software tools and associated best practices are hard to come by; and if you're holding up RogueWave tools as some sort of talisman for good software practice, then you too probably are scarcely aware of the problem, much less its solution. Mark
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.wantedmisc.forsale.computers.mac,comp.sys.macintosh,comp.sys.mentor,comp.sys.mips,comp.sys.misc,comp.sys.msx,comp.sys.ncr,comp.sys.net-computer,comp.sys.net-computer.announce,comp.sys.newton,comp.sys.newton.announce,comp.sys.newton.marketplace,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <13290493-1702990124500001@ccas11-sli46.t-net.net.ve> Control: cancel <13290493-1702990124500001@ccas11-sli46.t-net.net.ve> Date: 17 Feb 1999 05:23:37 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.13290493-1702990124500001@ccas11-sli46.t-net.net.ve> Sender: 13290493@geocities.com Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy From: yaztromo@idirect.com (Brad BARCLAY) Subject: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: WAFFER! MultiMedia Productions References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> Date: 14 Feb 99 06:12:59 GMT In <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: >:IBM could have changed the entire computer world if they had just hired an >:even half-way competent marketingdroid to push OS2 several years ago. It's >:a little late now. > >What exactly would this droid have done? > >The reality was > > * everything on the PC had to run DOS programs. > * Microsoft had rights to DOS on all non-IBM machines. > * Microsoft sabotaged competing DOS implementations. > * Microsoft sold Windows plus DOS for less money than than DOS alone. > >I don't see IBM's hypothetical victory strategy. Alot of people are quick to say "IBM could have won the OS wars if they had better marketing", however, I have yet to find a single person who could propose a marketing strategy that would have accomplished this. IBM could have held ticker-tape parades and showed an OS/2 commercial on TV every 5 minutes - and it wouldn't have changed a thing because they couldn't get the preload contracts. Pure and simple. IBM didn't lose because of anything IBM did wrong: they lost simply because they weren't Microsoft, and Microsoft used its dominant position to crush any non-MS OS. IBM's mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place for OS/2 v1.0 - 1.2. No amount of marketing could have changed that. Brad BARCLAY --------------- From the OS/2 WARP v4 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY. E-Mail: yaztromo@idirect.com WWW: http://yaztromo.idirect.com Public PGP Key available upon request. [ ] VoiceType Dictated.
From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 17 Feb 1999 07:01:37 GMT Organization: Technische Universitaet Berlin, Deutschland Message-ID: <7adpgh$p85$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <cdoutyF79poE.292@netcom.com> <36CA0288.3BF89F4D@oaai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 1999 07:01:37 GMT Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> writes: [..] >Piles is a good word for it. There seems to be two camps in software development >today -- those who feel that reams of code don't impact the maintainability of a >software project materially (and who as a result are gung-ho about crazy strongly >typed languages and code generation and all the things that go with it) -- and those >who seem to realize that the real power in a particular development environment is >how much you can say in a minimum number of words. I don't think the importance of this can be overstressed: code is your enemy! Remove it, eliminate it, destroy it whenever you can. At my last job as head of development for a small shop, one of my primary coding duties (apart from supervision and all that jazz) was condensing the code my staff had written, often down to 20% or less. Of course, when code is removed, functionality usually increases, not to mention stability etc. Marcel -- Java and C++ make you think that the new ideas are like the old ones. Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing since MS-DOS. - Alan Kay -
From: "Mark Bessey" <mbessey@apple.com (no spam, please)> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:35:33 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Message-ID: <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> Funny thing: I heard the same exact story from another ex-Next Sun employee earlier this week. Anybody want to comment on how sad it is that Sun's CDE environment *still* isn't better than OpenStep, even after a couple years of neglect? -Mark Eric Dew wrote: >As a former NeXT employee (currently working at Sun), I actually haven't >migrated from NeXT that much: I found the legacy opestep interface for Sun >and am using it on my desktop machine at work. The openstep Edit.app and >Terminal.app are working apps, and I use them instead of the solaris equivalent. >Although I don't know exactly what is a solaris equivalent to Edit.app. > >EDEW
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> <7afbfc$nbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <36cb3b79.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 17 Feb 99 21:58:17 GMT Quoth aa158@valleynet.on.ca on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:14:29 GMT in <7afbfc$nbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>: > In article <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com>, > "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> wrote: > > As a follow up, does anyone know if you can NXhost to black from Mac OS X > > server. Is any of the old DPS code still there? > No. Apple didn't want to pay the Adobe royalties. NXhost and DPS > are gone. The question is about OS X SERVER, which still has DPS and, presumably, NXHosting. I don't know the answer to the question. You probably can, but you may not be able to go From OS X Server TO black hardware. - Jon
From: Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:21:28 -0500 Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service (http://www.newsread.com) Message-ID: <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <cdoutyF79poE.292@netcom.com> <36CA0288.3BF89F4D@oaai.com> <7adpgh$p85$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcel Weiher wrote: > Mark Onyschuk <mark@oaai.com> writes: > [..] > > >Piles is a good word for it. There seems to be two camps in software development > >today -- those who feel that reams of code don't impact the maintainability of a > >software project materially (and who as a result are gung-ho about crazy strongly > >typed languages and code generation and all the things that go with it) -- and those > >who seem to realize that the real power in a particular development environment is > >how much you can say in a minimum number of words. > > I don't think the importance of this can be overstressed: code is your enemy! > Remove it, eliminate it, destroy it whenever you can. At my last job as head > of development for a small shop, one of my primary coding duties (apart from > supervision and all that jazz) was condensing the code my staff had written, > often down to 20% or less. Sounds like my last assignment. I'm convinced some people simply learn how to cut-and-paste with their editors instead of learning how to program. "Oh. That code does sort of what I want... cut... paste... fix-up." I just finished with a project where the previous guy had modified one multi-task 'system' to build another similiar 'system'. Hundreds of files scattered over several directories, some .h files almost exactly the same but for a few different #define's. It took a few months but I was able to reduce the code line count by at least 60% and still 1) make it work and 2) add features. I'm talking about 30000 lines down to 12000 lines here. And this by seeing all of the similiar patterns in the source code where he had cut-and-pasted to his hearts content and making functions out of them. Not to mention unnecessary variables and the unnecessary assignments to support them. Then there were the comments that said something completely different from the code! > Of course, when code is removed, functionality usually increases, not to > mention stability etc. Repeat after me: Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. ... -- Larry Blische * Consultant/Programmer Desktop Applications : Client/Server : Embedded Systems : Device Drivers : Etc. 6195 Eagles Nest Drive * Jupiter, Florida 33458 USA 561.747.7844 * NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail Welcome! mailto:lkb@lkba.com * resume at http://www.charm.net/~lkb/
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: NeXT's proposal to CDE (was Re: Where NeXT?) Date: 17 Feb 1999 21:09:05 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <919285745.668470@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com>, Mark Bessey <mbessey@apple.com (no spam, please)> wrote: >Anybody want to comment on how sad it is that Sun's CDE >environment *still* isn't better than OpenStep, even after a couple years of >neglect? > I recall reading somewhere that some people at NeXT wanted to submit its interface for consideration before the CDE UI was frozen into the steaming log that it is. Apparently it didn't happen for various reasons; anyone know more? -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 17 Feb 1999 22:49:13 GMT Organization: MagicNet, Inc. Message-ID: <cirby-1702991748340001@pm61-40.magicnet.net> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <cdoutyF79poE.292@netcom.com> <36CA0288.3BF89F4D@oaai.com> <7adpgh$p85$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com> Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com> wrote: > Repeat after me: > Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. > Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. Of course, in Redmond, they're saying: Increase the number of line of code, be an elephant. Increase the number of line of code, be an elephant. -- Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will, cirby@magicnet.net \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
From: spam@macromedia.com (mroeder) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Sound capabilities Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:38:38 -0800 Organization: macromedia Distribution: world Message-ID: <spam-1702991538380001@192.168.22.109> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jinx6568-0902991908420001@arc2a23.bf.sover.net> <7a46pc$mjo$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 1999 23:38:38 GMT In article <7a46pc$mjo$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de>, scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) wrote: > Hello, > > could somebody please explain to me, which sound capabilities the > new G3 models offer (what quality, what connectors, tech.specs.) > and whether they are supported under MacOS-X Server? > > I don't find anything about sound mentioned anywhere. Or maybe > this does imply, that you need to by additional hardware to > make the beast "beep", which I don't believe. > > Many greetings, > > Bernhard. From http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html.... Sound: minijacks for 16-bit stereo audio input and output; 44.1-kHz sampling rate. That means that the sound hardware is built-in (as it has been with Macs since the beginning). What the G3 will do with sound depends on what applications you plan to run on it. So. What applications do you plan to run on it? -- Michael Roeder - mroeder at macromedia dot com Professional Idealist and Ice Hockey QA Engineer (Goalie) "I'm in it for the fun, but it's more fun when you win!" To email me, change "spam" to "mroeder". But don't send spam!
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 18 Feb 1999 02:31:49 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <7afu2l$4vg$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <7a319p$j6k$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a39db$bmm$1@news.digifix.com> <1dn65xg.8woh6u1bffyw8N@[192.168.0.2]> <7a4cld$3bl$2@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> <7a4hsd$nod$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <36CA0D96.E33966CB@psca.com> I wrote my lament looking backwards at the frustrations of '97 and '98. Moving forward, I'm quite willing to look at MacOS X server (and client) as they arrive. I don't think I'll be an early adopter on this one, but I will listen to the reports from that first round of users. When I look around, I see a lot of interesting things for midnight hacking, and a much smaller set of things that make sense for the day job. Right now, the $995 MacOS X Server is too expensive for a midnight hack, but too obscure for use at work. It is kind of hard for an "expensive" and "obscure" OS to break in. I suspect that Apple understands this, but prefers a slow rate of product introduction. I think they are waiting to make their real pitch when they complete their Java-based tools and their new client OS. That leaves me a year or so to try other (less expensive) things. John Marc J. Driftmeyer <marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com> wrote, in part: : Before Everyone makes bold statements about Openstep for Mach being : disassembled and only duct-taped back together with BSD4.4 instead of : 4.3 please buy a copy of MacOS X Server when it comes out. John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote, in part: : > The fact that a ready-to-roll OS was dissassembled to form little more : > that a parts-bin for future hacking is a crime.
From: pokey069@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linux for NeXT Cube? Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:47:36 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7ac3ul$rjh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36C77AFE.E2CD39B9@crl.dec.com> <7648a7.3r.ln@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk> Unfortunatly last I checked, Lucent/AT&T still charges you for plan 9. I would pay for Openstep before I paid for Plan 9 In article <7648a7.3r.ln@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk>, Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk> wrote: > In comp.sys.next.misc Kamau Wanguhu <kamau@crl.dec.com> wrote: > > Is there a version of linux that runs on the NeXT hardware. I had heard > > of a version that could be used with BOOTP but can not seem to find it > > anywhere. > > I'm unaware of a Linux, but there is a NetBSD port at a fairly early stage > of maturity. > > Plan 9 (...from Bell Labs, not Outer Space) also runs on NeXT > hardware... a fun OS to experiment with if you get the chance. > > pete > -- > Pete Fenelon, 3 Beckside Gardens, York, YO10 3TX, UK (pete.fenelon@zetnet.co.uk) > ``there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas'' > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Message-ID: <edewF7CAKM.D6B@netcom.com> Sender: edew@netcom14.netcom.com Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:38:46 GMT In article <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> "Mark Bessey" <mbessey@apple.com (no spam, please)> writes: >Funny thing: I heard the same exact story from another ex-Next Sun employee >earlier this week. Anybody want to comment on how sad it is that Sun's CDE >environment *still* isn't better than OpenStep, even after a couple years of >neglect? > >-Mark > All I can say is that it's hard for me to believe that Scott McNealy could say, on 60 Minutes, that Windows is an obsolete OS, while Solaris is so much better. I actually got my desktop Solaris to freeze while playing around with dtmail, thus requiring a solar version of the three-fingered salute. CDE is better than Windows, but that's like saying a Kia is better than a Yugo in the world of all cars. EDEW
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Feb17103040@slave.doubleu.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <cdoutyF79poE.292@netcom.com> <36CA0288.3BF89F4D@oaai.com> <7adpgh$p85$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com> In-reply-to: Larry Blische's message of Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:21:28 -0500 Date: 17 Feb 99 10:30:40 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:59:50 PDT In article <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com> Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com> writes: Marcel Weiher wrote: > Of course, when code is removed, functionality usually increases, > not to mention stability etc. Repeat after me: Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. I have a colleague who phrases this "Simplify and add Lightness." Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: "Kenny Melton" <kmelton@iwvisp.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Good NeXT Links Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 04:37:22 -0800 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <7ah1i7$rf3$1@remarQ.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I'm working on a web site dedicated to Alternative Systems (non-Wintel) and when I began work on the NeXTStep portion of the site I was astonished at the lack of good web sites on the topic. There are several that I believe are truly useful, but most return 404 errors or have little to no information at all. Some that use to be valuable resources on NeXTStep are now entirely MacOS X Server oriented (granted that NeXTStep now MacOS X Server). Does anyone know of any really useful sites dedicated to NeXTStep or the black hardware (I know both are out of date, but there is still a loyal following)? Kenny Melton P.S. Please CC reply by email as I can rarely get my newsreader to work properly (MS software). -- "The Sausage Principal: Anyone who eats sausage and loves the law should never watch either one being made."
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Message-ID: <36cc3ad5.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 18 Feb 99 16:07:49 GMT Quoth quinlan@intergate.bc.ca on Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:25:21 GMT in <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>: > If Apple is really committed to YellowBox then why > wouldn't they write the Mac OS X Finder using the YB? Because that would require maintaining TWO versions of the Finder, one for OS X and one for OS 8/9, which won't have a YellowBox? That would be silly, and a waste of resources, considering that there's no theoretical reason why a Carbon Finder couldn't be made to interoperate with YellowBox apps. They'd be better off using their resources elsewhere.
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Good NeXT Links Date: 18 Feb 1999 17:08:56 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <7ah1i7$rf3$1@remarQ.com> Message-ID: <19990218120856.29047.00002370@ng-cc1.aol.com> Well, there's <www.stepwise.com> which has a very good links page. I've got a couple of links to NeXT related pages on my links page (see sig). William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 18 Feb 99 12:00:19 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2F1B156-21DC9@206.165.43.54> References: <7af2db$aqh$1@remarQ.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Donald R. McGregor <mcgredo@otter.mbay.net> said: >In article <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com>, Larry Blische < >larry@lkba.com> wrote: >>Repeat after me: >>Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. >>Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. > >Hmmmmm. > >"Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant." > >50% reduction in lines, same information content. Lines_of_code - extraneous_lines = elegance? Not always. I.E., elegance != obfuscation. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 18 Feb 1999 21:36:42 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7cp1v9.jo0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79uf4m$k3h$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <cdoutyF79poE.292@netcom.com> <36CA0288.3BF89F4D@oaai.com> <7adpgh$p85$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com> <SCOTT.99Feb17103040@slave.doubleu.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 1999 21:36:42 GMT On 17 Feb 99 10:30:40, Scott Hess <scott@nospam.doubleu.com> wrote: :In article <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com> Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com> writes: : Marcel Weiher wrote: : > Of course, when code is removed, functionality usually increases, : > not to mention stability etc. : : Repeat after me: : Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. : Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. : :I have a colleague who phrases this "Simplify and add Lightness." And the classic: Omit needless code. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:02:43 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial01p59.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36CC8E02.75361C20@tone.ca> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cc3ad5.0@news.depaul.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 1999 22:03:58 GMT Jonathan W Hendry wrote: > Quoth quinlan@intergate.bc.ca on Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:25:21 GMT in <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>: > > > If Apple is really committed to YellowBox then why > > wouldn't they write the Mac OS X Finder using the YB? > > Because that would require maintaining TWO versions of the Finder, > one for OS X and one for OS 8/9, which won't have a YellowBox? That > would be silly, and a waste of resources, considering that there's no > theoretical reason why a Carbon Finder couldn't be made to interoperate > with YellowBox apps. > > They'd be better off using their resources elsewhere. I don't see the point of this debate. Since there is a finder of sorts in DR2 and an improved one in OSX Server, and carbon isn't available yet, they are obviously developing a YB finder (or am I missing something). It already exists, what are you debating? Michael
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:08:14 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial01p59.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36CC8F4D.2C1554C0@tone.ca> References: <7af2db$aqh$1@remarQ.com> <B2F1B156-21DC9@206.165.43.54> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 1999 22:09:29 GMT > > > >"Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant." > > > >50% reduction in lines, same information content. > > Lines_of_code - extraneous_lines = elegance? > > Not always. > > I.E., elegance != obfuscation. > If I understand your equations, I agree with you. I wrote a lot of elegant code in my previous life, but some of it was really difficult for run of the mill COBOL programmers to follow. On the other hand it usually worked so they didn't have to maintain it. On the other hand it scared the hell out of them in case they ever had to. Michael
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Sound capabilities Date: 19 Feb 1999 08:58:58 GMT Organization: Peanuts NEXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody/MacOS-X Service Site Distribution: world Message-ID: <7aj94i$89o$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <3680e299.0@stan.astra.co.uk> <36817E0D.839DAAF9@nstar.net> <ch3-2312981958330001@1cust46.tnt6.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75u940$7ib$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412981349460001@1cust24.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75ugft$4h8$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <ch3-2412981540450001@1cust114.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3682E4E4.BAA11613@ericsson.com> <ch3-2412981717520001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <3683696D.BD0633B3@nstar.net> <ch3-2612980907270001@1cust12.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jinx6568-0902991908420001@arc2a23.bf.sover.net> <7a46pc$mjo$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <spam-1702991538380001@192.168.22.109> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit spam@macromedia.com (mroeder) wrote: >> >> could somebody please explain to me, which sound capabilities the >> new G3 models offer (what quality, what connectors, tech.specs.) >> and whether they are supported under MacOS-X Server? >> >From http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html.... > >Sound: minijacks for 16-bit stereo audio input and output; 44.1-kHz >sampling rate. > >That means that the sound hardware is built-in (as it has been with >Macs since the beginning). What the G3 will do with sound depends on >what applications you plan to run on it. So. What applications do you >plan to run on it? > I was planning to connect soundhardware: - MIDI quipment - and digital CD-Player/Mini-Disc for recording/playing. I think I'd need additional hardware for that. They should have added at least Coax-Digital I/O. Nowadays you'll find these chips on many PC motherboards for no additional costs. I also wanted to write and play with some sound software for generating synthesis sounds, sound sampling and transforming etc. So I'm still wondering whether the SoundKit from OpenStep made it into YB or whether there is a good replacement. Greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: s.brandon@music.gla.ac.uk (Stephen Brandon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Sound capabilities Date: 19 Feb 1999 15:54:26 GMT Organization: University of Glasgow Message-ID: <7ak1fi$iht@singer.cent.gla.ac.uk> References: <7aj94i$89o$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) wrote: >I was planning to connect soundhardware: >- MIDI quipment >- and digital CD-Player/Mini-Disc for recording/playing. I think I'd >need additional hardware for that. They should have added at least >Coax-Digital I/O. Nowadays you'll find these chips on many PC >motherboards for no additional costs. > >I also wanted to write and play with some sound software for >generating synthesis sounds, sound sampling and transforming etc. So >I'm still wondering whether the SoundKit from OpenStep made it into YB >or whether there is a good replacement. > >Greetings, > > Bernhard. Hi, I am writing a replacement SoundKit (called the SndKit) for OpenStep/Rhapsody. So far I have a working SoundView, which works really well, and most of the SND functions. The final one I am working on is SndConvert. I am aiming for Sound, SoundView, and all the SND functions, but not SoundTapper etc. Oh I should say that I have not done any playback or recording functions! I need someone else to do those. The Sound object replacement (Snd) should be pretty easy once the SND functions are complete -- it's pretty much just a wrapper over the top. I am doing this basically to ease porting of all our sound applications to YB/WinNT. I expect that the sound playback and recording will be done with QuickTime (the function interface, not the object interface which has not yet been released). As far as I can see from the QuickTime APIs, it may be difficult to get sound playback/recording happening in a background thread. If you or anyone else wants to do this part, then please let me know! All of the SndKit SND functions are (so far) platform independent C. So they could be used for porting to GNUStep, or even just plain Windows/Mac/Linux/anything. Of course the sound i/o will be a "challenge" on whichever platform you port to. Please e-mail me if you want to be kept informed on SndKit progress. Stephen Brandon --- Systems Administrator, Department of Music, e-mail: S.Brandon@music.gla.ac.uk 14 University Gardens, (NeXT mail welcomed) University of Glasgow, Tel: +44 (0)141 330 6065 Glasgow. Fax: +44 (0)141 330 3518 Scotland G12 8QH
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Sound capabilities Date: 19 Feb 1999 16:02:43 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <919440163.57222@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmo <7aj94i$89o$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <7aj94i$89o$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de>, Bernhard Scholz <scholz@leo.org> wrote: > >So >I'm still wondering whether the SoundKit from OpenStep made it into >YB or whether there is a good replacement. > I recall reading somewhere on Stepwise a while ago that SoundKit is dead. -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: NeXT's proposal to CDE (was Re: Where NeXT?) Date: 19 Feb 1999 16:00:55 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <919440055.366107@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> <919285745.668470@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> <36CCF8B2.94E48CC3@yahoo.com> Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <36CCF8B2.94E48CC3@yahoo.com>, Rex Riley <rr6013.yahoo.com> wrote: > > >I don't know more... but does prior behavior of trashing technology investments >have any bearing on who you do business with? > True. But I guess what I was wondering is whether it was killed from outside ("Steve, there's no damn way we're going to listen to anything you have to say") or from the inside (Steve saying, "We're not going to talk to them.") -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000 Organization: MediaNet Ireland Message-ID: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 1999 20:39:55 GMT i never really played around with OpenDoc much when it first came out, so i didn't really understand what all the hype was about at the time. It seemed to have a lot of momentum behind it for a while and then it just sort of fizzled out. Looking through old magazine articles and developer documentation on apple's site, it does look like it was kind of interesting. What I want to know is, what went wrong? What were the technical/political issues that killed it? Was it really all that useful anyway? The idea of embedding different types of objects in a document and being able to edit them in-place with plug in editors seems kind of cool, but how often do most people need to do things like that? What good ideas could be salvaged from it and used in MacOS X/other OSes? Also, what happened to Taligent? It looks like they had some pretty cool ideas, and then they just died. The only evidence I can find of them now is an API reference for their CommonPoint framework mirrored on some forgotten website. I find it really disturbing to think of all the money and people's lives spent working on technologies that ended up scrapped... Cheers, Justin
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 19 Feb 1999 21:49:44 GMT Organization: MediActive Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991352390001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akl3v$35c$1@hole.sdsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <7akl3v$35c$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) wrote: > In the end, Apple took a good idea, made a botch of trying to > introduce it to the world, and failed. > I'll betcha that, had MS deployed OpenDoc in the exact same way, we'd be exchanging these UseNet posts in an OpenDoc part today. I'm not a programmer, but from what I recall, the biggest hurdle to developing for OD was the fear that nobody would ever use your software.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 19 Feb 1999 17:25:05 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 1999 22:26:02 GMT In article <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM>, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > There's still no confirmation that a shell & the unix utils will be > delivered with MacOSX. All I know is from: http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/bof.html "In Mac OS X Server the BSD subsystem is installed by default, but is removeable. In Mac OS X, its likely to be an additional installation." No formal commitment, but I haven't seen anyone who has said that it _won't_ be available either. > When I tell them about the system trying to map all characters to uppercase > (at least in the UI) What are you talking about?? Are you talking about the case-preserving filesystem? > and about an extra fee for a usable shell they'll balk out. I'm sure that if Apple doesn't ship one with the product, someone else will provide one for free download. > BTW. I read the "first impressions on MacOS X S" article on stepwise. Which one was that? "Geek Porn", or what? > The "no X, that's bad" comment illustrates another point: Which comment was that? > It's sad that > we lost all those little NeXTSTEP programs with the NS-NIXSPAM>OS transition. I didn't expect anything else.
From: tjhanson@globalfrontiers.com (Tim Hanson) Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Re: March 1st, IBM's Linux D-Day or 'How hard _really_ would OS/2+Linux be?" Organization: Men Friendly Message-ID: <36c7275c.398130090@news.globalfrontiers.com> References: <6602BEA439C6EA8D.B4521CC8E3F2F52A.7916DFDEAE2DF595@library-proxy.airnews.net> <36c50a45.2302011@news-server> <79nm45$m8s$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c0b5v.6fj.possum@ss5.fred.net> <joe.ragosta-0902990902510001@wil99.dol.net> <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <36c6696b.0@oasis.idirect.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:01:54 EDT Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:54:31 GMT yaztromo@idirect.com (Brad BARCLAY) wrote: >In <slrn7ccjl7.ql7.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) writes: >>:IBM could have changed the entire computer world if they had just hired an >>:even half-way competent marketingdroid to push OS2 several years ago. It's >>:a little late now. >> >>What exactly would this droid have done? >> >>The reality was >> >> * everything on the PC had to run DOS programs. >> * Microsoft had rights to DOS on all non-IBM machines. >> * Microsoft sabotaged competing DOS implementations. >> * Microsoft sold Windows plus DOS for less money than than DOS alone. >> >>I don't see IBM's hypothetical victory strategy. > > Alot of people are quick to say "IBM could have won the OS wars if they >had better marketing", however, I have yet to find a single person who could >propose a marketing strategy that would have accomplished this. > > IBM could have held ticker-tape parades and showed an OS/2 commercial on >TV every 5 minutes - and it wouldn't have changed a thing because they >couldn't get the preload contracts. Pure and simple. I remember those days a little too well myself. I actually went out and bought the floppy version of OS/2 and installed it. Imagining the non-hobbyist user going through that when Windows was available to perform some or all of the tasks is difficult. I knew OS/2 was going nowhere when one couldn't even buy a true IBM PC without paying the Windows tax. For awhile s/he could get it pre installed, but for $200 more. > > IBM didn't lose because of anything IBM did wrong: they lost simply >because they weren't Microsoft, and Microsoft used its dominant position to >crush any non-MS OS. > > IBM's mistake was partnering with Microsoft in the first place for OS/2 >v1.0 - 1.2. No amount of marketing could have changed that. > >Brad BARCLAY > Agreed. Hopefully Linux doesn't have the same constraints; OEMs pre loading it, while still small, aren't beholden to Microsoft in any way. Linux can be cheaply placed on a generic box made and sold by the same VAR who services the system and provides the support; we have several of them within the radius of the local mall. I hope as the desktop improves some of those OS/2 loyalists will give their support. Why they stayed with their fine OS despite such treatment is beyond me. >--------------- >From the OS/2 WARP v4 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY. >E-Mail: yaztromo@idirect.com WWW: http://yaztromo.idirect.com >Public PGP Key available upon request. [ ] VoiceType Dictated. >
From: Michael <michael@tone.ca> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:59:42 -0500 Organization: Styx DTP Sender: monner@dial01p30.ottawa.storm.ca Message-ID: <36CDECDC.CB850DC3@tone.ca> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 1999 23:00:53 GMT > Also, what happened to Taligent? It looks like they had some pretty > cool ideas, and then they just died. The only evidence I can find of > them now is an API reference for their CommonPoint framework mirrored on > some forgotten website. Actually they didn't die, they just decided not to build a full-fledged operating system, just low level stuff to be incoprorated into other operating systems. Thus their efforts were behind the scenes. Who knows how much of their work is being used in MacOS. Michael
From: holger@_REMOVE_THIS_.wizards.de (Holger Hoffstaette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 15 Feb 1999 15:18:11 GMT Organization: The secret circle of the NSRC Message-ID: <7a9de2$1ua@ragnarok.en.uunet.de> References: <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79guva$h4n$1@news.digifix.com> <1dmt4r9.mu5bkf6zvkouN@[192.168.0.2]> <79j6lo$c9f$1@news.digifix.com> <79je8c$boj$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <slrn7c4ijo.9c6.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <79v2td$4rt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79vm0i$212$1@news.digifix.com> <7a0evp$c8q$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7a0o38$d88$1@news.digifix.com> <36C4927F.31BFC6EB@psca.com> <36c51f88.55527006@news.icx.net> <7a90ao$e4t$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com wrote: > mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) wrote: > > > If ObjC is not supported, then any YB developer that uses > > it now will pay later to convert their entire code base to Java. > > You're jumping to the conclusion that YB developers currently using Obj-C > would still find the environment compelling if Obj-C were gone. If we didn't As someone sitting in front of the WO/YB Java bindings right now, I hate to agree with Andrew that there's little - if nothing - left of what made me use YB in the first place, namely the best of both worlds (C and Smalltalk). No ObjC, no YB. I look at the YB Java bindings and continually ask myself, 'why?'. As far as I am concerned, Java as a language is not 'good enough', and the pathetic JDK library design is destined for a very ungraceful fall in the mid term. > find Obj-C a very compelling superior of Java (for our purposes), we wouldn't > be using it. (I'm not commenting on whether or not it _will_ disappear - it > seems completely obvious to me that it can't disappear in the near or mid > term, though Apple may or may not find it compelling to market Obj-C.) Wouldn't the logical Jobsian answer to these 'issues' be to not only abandon ObjC but YB completely as well? "Ein API, eine CPU, ein CEO". I mean, what good is choice if all your options look the same *and* suck? Holger
From: Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> Message-ID: <36cdef6f.0@news.depaul.edu> Date: 19 Feb 99 23:10:39 GMT Quoth Nathan Urban on 19 Feb 1999 17:25:05 -0500 in <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com>: > In article <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM>, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > > There's still no confirmation that a shell & the unix utils will be > > delivered with MacOSX. The latest FAQ says that POSIX and YellowBox apps will work on OS X. POSIX suggests 'command line'.
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:12:54 GMT Organization: KU Message-ID: <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Feb 19 17:17:02 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000, justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> wrote: It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. -- Nathan A. Hughes The University Theatre, KU www.scenedesign.com
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:46:29 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:47:14 PDT In article <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: [snip original question] >OpenDoc started from the premise that all data was different. That drove >the designers to build a framework of "editors" and "viewers" to handle >that complexity. The idea was that for each kind of data, there would be >a special tool to manipulate, view it, or perhaps to export it to other >tools. > >Compare and contrast to the modern XML philosophy that all data is (or can >be represented) the same. In the new XML world, dissimilar data types >can often share tools (at least parsers and validators). > >To continue my gross simplification ... I tend to encounter two kinds of >programmers: those who revel in their ability to handle complexity, and >those who revel in finding those hidden paradigms that make everything >easier. The first group crash and burn more often than the second. > >OpenDoc did not make things easier for the programmer. This is all fine and dandy from a programmer's perspective (or is it? I'm not a programmer, and I'll leave this up for you to debate). But what I found best about OpenDoc was from the user's perspective; document-centric computing. To use a real world analogy, imagine your desk as your computer, pens and paintbrushes and the like as applications, and pieces of paper as documents. In the current, application-centric approach, you would pick up your pen, tell it to create a new piece of paper, and then use it to write something on that paper. Then, if you want to paint something on it, you would have to disengage the pen from the paper, put the pen away, pick up your paint brush, tell it to "open" the paper (to start working on it), and then do your painting. The OpenDoc, document-centric approach, was to instead tell your desk to pull a paper of a certain type from your desk (open a stationary document, in the computer), and then apply pens and paintbrushes or whatever tools you have handy to the paper, without ever having to put away the paper to "open" it in another tool, or even having to put away the tools; they'd all be there, sitting on your desk, and you could use them together. In the full-fledged Copland approach to OpenDoc, there was to be a "New..." submenu where the current "New Folder" menu item is in the Finder. You would choose what kind of document you wanted to create from there (and this menu varies depending on what kind of editors you have), then a window would pop open with the default editor for that data type. You could create sub-documents within that document, which would use their own editors. Say, for example, you want to create an informational poster. You would create a draw document or a page-layout document for the basic parts of the poster. Put the main text here and there with the tools of your page-layout editor. Then create an image part within your document; your default image editor will load, and you can edit the image within the page without ever closing the page. In the current paradigm, you would have to create the image separately and then import it into the page-layout document; a much less direct approach. Back to our poster. Now, create a word-processing part within the page, and type out a couple paragraphs of information. Position the image and WP within the page appropriately with the page-layout tool. And so on. It's much like how ClarisWorks works together with all of it's different parts, except with OpenDoc, you could use Word, Illustrator, Photoshop, FileMaker and Excel together (assuming these were made into OpenDoc editors), instead of only the built-in Claris parts. Don't like Photoshop, want to use Painter instead? WordPerfect instead of Word? CorelDraw instead of Illustrator? Orable instead of FileMaker? SpreadSheet2000 instead of Excel? Fine. Everything would be swappable. It was to free the user from the whims of the giant corporations, allowing them to build their own uber-tools out of the myriads of smaller tools which were to be available. The problems with OpenDoc, however, were many. As far as technical problems, one of them was it's initial implementation. It was slow and hogged memory. Later versions largely remedied this, but I know I was turned off from it until right around the time it was killed, when the mournings of die-hard advocates like Lawson English made me take another look. But I'd say that the biggest technical problem was lack of standard file-formats; how can Excel and SpreadSheet2000 be interchangable tools for spreadsheet documents when they each only use their own document formats? I think something like XML could largely solve this, giving standard formats that everyone can read. As for political problems, there was the lack of major plaform support by the likes of MS and IBM, as cross-platform compatability was to be a major feature of OpenDoc. Then there was lack of major developer support by the likes of Adobe and MS, and even Apple's own subsidary Claris was dog-slow to get an OpenDoc version of ClarisWorks done, but I don't think that was ever released because OD was dying by that time. But the biggest fumble of all was Apple's initial rollout. It seems the rollout is always the biggest factor in a product's success, the first impressions people get. With the Mac, the originals were small-screened and too expensive, and many people even today think of a Plus when the hear the word Macintosh. With VHS vs Beta, the original VHS had a longer recording time and cost less, despite Beta's other advantages, and even when Beta caught up and surpassed VHS on recording time, VHS had such a lead that Beta was doomed in the consumer market. Same deal with OpenDoc; it was released without suitable developer tools, the major and even minor developers couldn't get started on it, therefore it became a cool but useless thing in the public's eye. Later in it's life, with a myriad of small but perfectly suitable tools (including one, ThePerfectImage I think it was called, which ran Photoshop filters in a tiny fraction of Photoshop's RAM and disk space), people still thought of is as a cool but useless technology, and when Jobs came on and cut everything that wasn't a core product, OpenDoc was left sitting under the chopping block. I think OSX would be a great way to re-introduce the OpenDoc paradigm. Have an "OpenDoc.app" which exists solely to serve as a unified front-end to Services provided by smaller editor apps. These editor apps could be written in Carbon or Yellow Box or Java or any API on OSX which allows use of Services (for those in CSMA who don't know, Services are published chunks of code which one app can allow any other app to use; so, a spell-checker service could be used in any text editor, for example). This way the tools would already be there, the tools *are* already here, and OpenDoc.app would provide the document-centricicty which so many OD fans love. -- -Forrest Cameranesi forrest [at] west [dot] net "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 19 Feb 1999 18:51:44 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7akteg$108$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> <36cdef6f.0@news.depaul.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 1999 23:51:55 GMT In article <36cdef6f.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote: > Quoth Nathan Urban on 19 Feb 1999 17:25:05 -0500 in <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com>: > > In article <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM>, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > > > There's still no confirmation that a shell & the unix utils will be > > > delivered with MacOSX. > The latest FAQ says that POSIX and YellowBox apps will work on OS X. > POSIX suggests 'command line'. Yeah, which is why I'm not too worried. But the question was actually whether or not Apple will _ship_ OS X with command-line stuff (as an optional install?).
From: "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 00:12:24 GMT Organization: Steel Driving Software Message-ID: <01be5c97$e751afe0$f8badccf@samsara> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> <36cdef6f.0@news.depaul.edu> <7akteg$108$1@crib.corepower.com> Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote in article <7akteg$108$1@crib.corepower.com>... > In article <36cdef6f.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote: > > > Quoth Nathan Urban on 19 Feb 1999 17:25:05 -0500 in <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com>: > > > > In article <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM>, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > > > > > There's still no confirmation that a shell & the unix utils will be > > > > delivered with MacOSX. > > > The latest FAQ says that POSIX and YellowBox apps will work on OS X. > > > POSIX suggests 'command line'. > > Yeah, which is why I'm not too worried. But the question was actually > whether or not Apple will _ship_ OS X with command-line stuff (as an > optional install?). If it wasn't standard, then they couldn't really say that POSIX apps will work on OS X.
From: spam@macromedia.com (mroeder) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:30:13 -0800 Organization: macromedia Message-ID: <spam-1902991630130001@quixote.macromedia.com> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 00:30:12 GMT In article <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote: > On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000, justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> > wrote: > > It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. You mean like GUI, TrueType and QuickTime? -- Michael Roeder - mroeder at macromedia dot com Professional Idealist and Ice Hockey QA Engineer (Goalie) "I'm in it for the fun, but it's more fun when you win!" To email me, change "spam" to "mroeder". But don't send spam!
From: trev@sc.edu (Trevor Zion Bauknight) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:33:13 -0500 Organization: Metaphysical Bunko Squad Message-ID: <trev-1902991933140001@col-pm3-140.innova.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net> In article <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote: > It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. Now that you have a typically thoughtful Nathan Hughes "response," you should be all set. Trev
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 20 Feb 1999 00:52:34 GMT Organization: MediActive Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991655300001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.ne t>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote: > On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000, justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> > wrote: > > It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. Need we discuss any further? The definitive opinion has been laid out by the master.
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 20 Feb 1999 01:07:52 GMT Organization: MediActive Message-ID: <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991710460001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net>, SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: > ... what I > found best about OpenDoc was from the user's perspective; document-centric > computing. True. It's all coming back to me, reading your post. What we currently have in computing is a tail-wags-dog scenario where we have to rely solely on the makers of individual apps, or a system of cumbersomely moving documents from one app, to the next, to the next in order to accomplish the end product. Essentially the tool defines the object as much, if not moreso than the object defines the tools. It does make more sense to open a document that can be easily acted upon by any tool, and perhaps some of the redundancy and waste of so many huge monolithic apps can be elminated. Problem is, this flies in the face of the major developers' bread and butter. How can you convince Adobe or Macromedia or (let's shoot for the stars here) Microsoft to support a better system when it might jeopardize their best selling products, and perhaps eliminate the proprietary document format barrier that frightens or at least compels users to keep using *their* application, or suite of applications? Not likely. And thus, innovation is killed. The Tucker is towed away... OLE is such a tiny, tiny aspect of what OD could have done. Little more than the Publish/Subscribe feature in System 7, I'm surprised the DOJ hasn't sought out any evidence of MS trying to kill OD (although it's certainly possible at this point that they could have relied on Apple's and IBM's own incompetence to destroy it). The model for OD still makes sense. Perhaps there really is an argument for making it open source for Linux and allowing its use in OS X.
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 20 Feb 1999 01:50:16 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <7al4co$5ah$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net> I wrote, in part: : >programmers: those who revel in their ability to handle complexity, and : >those who revel in finding those hidden paradigms that make everything : >easier. The first group crash and burn more often than the second. : >OpenDoc did not make things easier for the programmer. Forrest Cameranesi <SPAMLESSforrest@west.net> replied: : [...] if you want to paint something on it, you would have to disengage : the pen from the paper, put the pen away, pick up your paint brush, tell : it to "open" the paper (to start working on it), and then do your : painting. Sure, that continues to be a very powerful vision. : The OpenDoc, document-centric approach, was to instead tell your desk : to pull a paper of a certain type from your desk (open a stationary : document, in the computer), and then apply pens and paintbrushes or : whatever tools you have handy to the paper, without ever having to put : away the paper to "open" it in another tool, or even having to put away : the tools; they'd all be there, sitting on your desk, and you could use : them together. I know is difficult for non-programmers to separate OpenDoc's outer vision from the inner vision. The problem (again FWIW and IMHO) was that the inner vision made each tool the owner of its data. In that sense, it was a tools-first worldview. One might say that the winning standards (like HTML and MIME) are data-first. They define what the data _is_, and let you name a tool to deal with it. XML takes this a step further by pushing data sharing from the BLOB level down into individual data fields. : [...] how can Excel and SpreadSheet2000 be interchangable tools : for spreadsheet documents when they each only use their own document : formats? I think something like XML could largely solve this, giving : standard formats that everyone can read. [...] Standard data-types were way too important to paste onto the design at the last minute. The lack of them at the center of the system is the key failing in OpenDoc. If anybody wanted to build a new compound document system based on the OpenDoc _outer_vision_ I think I could get behind it. I think some of the web management and XML tools might even be converging on such a thing now. Any attempt to resurrect the OpenDoc _inner_vision_ is doomed to fail. John
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 02:36:08 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7al72n$qh7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> In article <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com>, "Mark Bessey" <mbessey@apple.com (no spam, please)> wrote: > Funny thing: I heard the same exact story from another ex-Next Sun employee > earlier this week. Anybody want to comment on how sad it is that Sun's CDE > environment *still* isn't better than OpenStep, even after a couple years of > neglect? Who else has used the 'metatool' GUI admin tool from Sun's DiskSuite? What an amazingly poor UI governing absolutely critical system functionality-- screwing up in this program *WILL* do bad things to data, generally several large hard drives worth. Sun's got poor GUI admin tools over a very solid foundation (Solaris), which is an interesting contrast to the fairly usable admin tools with NT which are written on top of a nightmarish cesspool of a foundation. Say, where can I get a cross-platform NetInfo solution nowadays? I heard Xedoc's hadta give up on supporting NetInfo ports to other platforms. So is Apple gonna provide NetInfo software for Solaris, NT, and/or the MacOS, or is everyone who's supporting a heterogenous network hosed? -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 20 Feb 1999 02:55:50 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <7akbeu$n40$1@news.inc.net> Message-ID: <19990219215550.01159.00000581@ng-fi1.aol.com> Andrew said: >my Mac. It doesn't crash, it does things fast, it boots >much faster What sort of Mac do you have? Which version of the Mac OS are you running? What extension setup do you have? I'm asking because the most reliable Mac we have at work crashes at least once a week and I've gotten no reasonable suggestions on how to improve this. Going to Mac OS 8.5.1 has helped my system (PowerMac 9500/180MP a fair bit, down to once a day or so) As I stated before, I've yet to see a system that works as well as my NeXT Cube does. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 20 Feb 1999 03:21:40 GMT Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <ckoller-1902991933300001@235.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991710460001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <slrn7csas8.h0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> In article <slrn7csas8.h0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com wrote: > > I don't believe it. The above statement is the preamble, the motivation of many of the world's great inventions... > > It's a prescription for inconsistent user-interfaces and semantic > incompatibility. O come on now. Most Mac-based apps are 90% consistent. It's not quite so on the Winders side, which is why perhaps it wasn't quite so easy to implement, but I'm sure it's possible to maintain some semblence of consistency from OD part to part. > > What exactly does opendoc do to create a document that can be acted > upon by "any tool"? IIRC, you create a container wherein the document resides. You then modify the document (spell check it, add graphics, music, whatever) based on the tools at your disposal. When MS made use of System 7's publish and subscribe, you could dynamically place part of, say, an Excel spreadsheet into a word document. By having both apps open, you could work on this "compound" document. Now, it's come a ways since then, but the concept is the same, except with the OLE model you rely on larger applications to either work with the data, or merely display the dynamically updateable data. This isn't brand new stuff here. It was done initially on the Mac, then essentially abandoned and picked up on Windows, where it serves monolithic apps that are OLE aware. I apologize to people like Lawson who are probably cringing at my explanation, but that's the way Apple explained it to me, and I swear I was paying attention. OD was being deployed at the same time that Java was cutting its teeth. > > -- > * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD > * > * "do || !do; try: Command not found" > * /sbin/yoda --help
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 19 Feb 1999 21:09:27 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7al5gn$1n7$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <36cdef6f.0@news.depaul.edu> <7akteg$108$1@crib.corepower.com> <01be5c97$e751afe0$f8badccf@samsara> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 02:09:35 GMT In article <01be5c97$e751afe0$f8badccf@samsara>, "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote: > Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote in article > <7akteg$108$1@crib.corepower.com>... > > Yeah, which is why I'm not too worried. But the question was actually > > whether or not Apple will _ship_ OS X with command-line stuff (as an > > optional install?). > If it wasn't standard, then they couldn't really say that > POSIX apps will work on OS X. There's a difference between "POSIX apps working on OS X" and full POSIX compliance (which they aren't claiming). I'm sure that OS X will be Unix enough that you'll be able to build the full suite of Unix utilities (ls, cp, etc.), but that doesn't mean that those utilities (or Terminal.app) will be included.
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 20 Feb 1999 02:15:18 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7csas8.h0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991710460001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 02:15:18 GMT On 20 Feb 1999 01:07:52 GMT, Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> wrote: :In article <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net>, :SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) wrote: : :> ... what I :> found best about OpenDoc was from the user's perspective; document-centric :> computing. : :True. It's all coming back to me, reading your post. What we currently have :in computing is a tail-wags-dog scenario where we have to rely solely on :the makers of individual apps, or a system of cumbersomely moving documents :from one app, to the next, to the next in order to accomplish the end :product. Essentially the tool defines the object as much, if not moreso :than the object defines the tools. : :It does make more sense to open a document that can be easily acted upon by :any tool, and perhaps some of the redundancy and waste of so many huge :monolithic apps can be elminated. I don't believe it. It's a prescription for inconsistent user-interfaces and semantic incompatibility. What exactly does opendoc do to create a document that can be acted upon by "any tool"? -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
From: nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 03:56:53 GMT Organization: KU Message-ID: <2700AFC237B57616.1356B4722B1F10F1.0712FF591EF886A4@library-proxy.airnews.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net> <spam-1902991630130001@quixote.macromedia.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Feb 19 22:01:01 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:30:13 -0800, spam@macromedia.com (mroeder) wrote: >In article ><EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net>, >nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote: > >> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000, justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> >> wrote: >> >> It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. > >You mean like GUI, TrueType and QuickTime? Apple didn't invent the GUI and there are more systems using M$ video than QT. QT is still too lame to do live streaming video, and is pretty much worthless for PCs. As for true type, it good to see they did something worth having. -- Nathan A. Hughes The University Theatre, KU www.scenedesign.com
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 02:09:25 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7al5gf$pb4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> <79ppeu$f9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <T.Boroskem3r9rnjiym.fsf@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> In article <T.Boroskem3r9rnjiym.fsf@ws.rz.tu-bs.de>, Thomas Boroske <T.Boroske@tu-bs.de> wrote: > "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > > > In article <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de>, > > Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote: > > > Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > > [ ... ] > > >>> I oughta mention here that the StrongARM has no floating point processor, > > >>> no superscalar mechanism, and relatively unsophisticated pipelining. > > > > Sure...but it makes up for this by having a really, really fast clock rate. > > The fastest SA runs at 233 MHz currently. OTOH, most (all) ARM processors > are not optimized for speed, but for a good speed/power ratio. > > > The ARM architecture is classic RISC; with only three or so phases per > > instruction (rather than five to seven, or more of CISC), > > Errm - the SA has 5 pipeline stages. And the ARM architecture can hardly > be called "classic RISC" - relatively complicated adressing modes > and a relatively low number of regs. YMMV, of course. > > > you don't need to do > > deep pipelining, fancy hazard detection, stalling, and result forwarding, and > > all of the rest of the complicated things someone like Intel has had to do. > > You have to do just the same. Where did you get that idea from ? > > Of course, hazard detection is not needed if you donīt have multiple > execution units (if memory serves me correctly). > > Thereīs no doubt an architecture like the ARM is easier to implement > efficiently than the x86 architecture, of course. > > > > Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? > > > > No. The default kernels everyone ships for the Intel world are compiled with > > the assumption that a FPU is available, but it's entirely possible to build > > Linux with the kernel trapping FPU calls to a software emulator. > > > > A port to the ARM would obviously be built with the kernel not expecting a > > FPU.... > > It has been built (ARMLinux, netbsd-arm32 also available). > I think the "Linux needs FPU" usually refers to font scaling under > X or something. > > Kind regards, > > -- > Thomas Boroske > -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Good NeXT Links Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:19:10 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Message-ID: <7al9l1$b73@enews2.newsguy.com> References: <7ah1i7$rf3$1@remarQ.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try: http://www.peak.org/~luomat Peak also has a NeXT software archive but I forget the exant URL. Mitch -- ---------- In article <7ah1i7$rf3$1@remarQ.com>, "Kenny Melton" <kmelton@iwvisp.com> wrote: > Hello, > I'm working on a web site dedicated to Alternative Systems (non-Wintel) > and when I began work on the NeXTStep portion of the site I was astonished > at the lack of good web sites on the topic. There are several that I believe > are truly useful, but most return 404 errors or have little to no > information at all. Some that use to be valuable resources on NeXTStep are > now entirely MacOS X Server oriented (granted that NeXTStep now MacOS X > Server). Does anyone know of any really useful sites dedicated to NeXTStep > or the black hardware (I know both are out of date, but there is still a > loyal following)? > > Kenny Melton > > P.S. Please CC reply by email as I can rarely get my newsreader to work > properly (MS software). > -- > "The Sausage Principal: Anyone who eats sausage and loves the law should > never watch either one being made."
From: "Phil Brewster" <pjbrew@nospam.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 19 Feb 99 21:50:10 -0700 Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <B2F38D15-93AFD@204.31.112.134> References: <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-pro xy.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit nntp://nntp.ix.netcom.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy On Fri, Feb 19, 1999 4:12 PM, nate <mailto:nhughes@sunflower.com> wrote: >On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000, justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> >wrote: > >It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. > > >-- >Nathan A. Hughes >The University Theatre, KU >www.scenedesign.com > > That was how it ended up, of course. -- It started out, however, as being Novell-, IBM- and Apple-junk nobody else wanted. ;-) (IBM's VisualAge for C++ still shipped for awhile with some OpenDoc libraries, IIRC, even though there was never much of anything anyone could do with them on any other platforms besides MacOS, since IBM never finished the port to Windows beyond beta 1.0 and I'm not sure anyone ever even contemplated doing anything with OD on Unix [maybe Sun??].... In theory, though, it was designed to be 'cross-platform', using CORBA standards and yadda-yadda, vs. being conceived as Mac-only or Apple-only technology, even though, again, that is how it ended up....) Much as I hate to detract any from Nate's cheery optimism, it was less the case that 'nobody else wanted it' and more the case that Novell, IBM and Apple (more or less in that order....) abandoned it each for their own reasons. In late 1996, FWIW, even Microsoft had plans to support OpenDoc via ActiveX, so it was still enough of an 'industry phenomenon' for them to be taking it seriously at the time, evidently. http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/mcwo/0109/mcwo0008.html A few months later, however, IBM formally announced a strategic shift away from OpenDoc to Java (which had been, ehm, 'brewing' for some time, in IBM's very active collaboration with Sun....), and Apple soon followed suit: http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/11/t04-11.1.htm http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/pcwo/0320/pcwo0004.html The End (tm). Basically, IMNSHO, nobody in Userland had much of a chance to 'want' OpenDoc or not to 'want' it in the brief time it was actually available on the market as a more-or-less finished product, namely from December 1996 (IBM delivers first and only developer-ready beta of OpenDoc for Windows; Apple bundles OpenDoc for the first time in a quasi-'final release' on MacOS 7.6), to mid-March 1997.... Granted, alot of people in the developer world had just plain grown tired of waiting and looked elsewhere for component-based solutions (e.g., to Java or ActiveX or....) before then, since OD was (and will sadly [IMO] remain....) a classic instance of 'over-hyped' and 'under-delivered' technology, throughout.... http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/pcwk/1350/pcwk0072.html With the acquisition of NeXT, things have turned out for the best in terms of all this component-based stuff, I suppose, even though it still feels like 2 steps forward and 1 step back, since we keep having to wait (and wait and wait....) for the cool stuff to get delivered to us measly end-users each time Apple throttles one technology du jour in its cradle and then tries to move everyone over to the next one like this..... -- Watching these constant 'technical revolutions' at 1 Infinite Loop is starting to make me dizzy. ;-) Cheers, -- Phil Brewster <pjbrew at ix dot netcom dot com> "It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious." -- Alfred North Whitehead
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Sound capabilities Date: 20 Feb 1999 05:07:38 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7alfuq$api$1@news.digifix.com> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <75v93b$v55$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <ch3-2412982322100001@1cust237.tnt7.redmo <7aj94i$89o$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> <919440163.57222@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> In-Reply-To: <919440163.57222@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> On 02/19/99, David Evans wrote: >In article <7aj94i$89o$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de>, >Bernhard Scholz <scholz@leo.org> wrote: >> >>So >>I'm still wondering whether the SoundKit from OpenStep made it into >>YB or whether there is a good replacement. >> > > I recall reading somewhere on Stepwise a while ago that SoundKit is dead. According to the YB release notes with WOF 4.0, its been replaced by NSSound. NSSound lacks all the soundview stuff, and recording. So, if the replacement snd kit that these folks are working on does the soundview stuff, then recording is all that is missing, and thats only temporary.... -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 05:13:55 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7algaj$atn$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <36cdef6f.0@news.depaul.edu> <7akteg$108$1@crib.corepower.com> <01be5c97$e751afe0$f8badccf@samsara> <7al5gn$1n7$1@crib.corepower.com> In-Reply-To: <7al5gn$1n7$1@crib.corepower.com> On 02/19/99, Nathan Urban wrote: >In article <01be5c97$e751afe0$f8badccf@samsara>, "Jonathan Hendry" <jon@steeldriving.com> wrote: > >> Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote in article >> <7akteg$108$1@crib.corepower.com>... > >> > Yeah, which is why I'm not too worried. But the question was actually >> > whether or not Apple will _ship_ OS X with command-line stuff (as an >> > optional install?). > >> If it wasn't standard, then they couldn't really say that >> POSIX apps will work on OS X. > >There's a difference between "POSIX apps working on OS X" and full POSIX >compliance (which they aren't claiming). Actually, they are claiming pretty much full posix compliance (there are some issues with filenames because of the case preserving stuff).. The only thing they aren't working towards is POSIX certification. I think Wilfredo Sanchez said (at the BOF) if it doesn't work like POSIX is supposed to, its probably a bug that should be reported.. :-) >I'm sure that OS X will be Unix >enough that you'll be able to build the full suite of Unix utilities (ls, >cp, etc.), but that doesn't mean that those utilities (or Terminal.app) >will be included. > -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 05:12:07 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7alg77$atm$1@news.digifix.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> In-Reply-To: <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> On 02/19/99, Nathan Urban wrote: >In article <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM>, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > > >> There's still no confirmation that a shell & the unix utils will be >> delivered with MacOSX. > >All I know is from: > > http://www.stepwise.com/SpecialCoverage/MacWorldExpo-99-SF/bof.html > >"In Mac OS X Server the BSD subsystem is installed by default, but is >removeable. In Mac OS X, its likely to be an additional installation." > Hmmm I'm pretty sure that if you remove it, Mac OS X Server doesn't work anymore too... >No formal commitment, but I haven't seen anyone who has said that it >_won't_ be available either. > >> When I tell them about the system trying to map all characters to uppercase >> (at least in the UI) > >What are you talking about?? Are you talking about the >case-preserving filesystem? > >> and about an extra fee for a usable shell they'll balk out. > >I'm sure that if Apple doesn't ship one with the product, someone else >will provide one for free download. > Definately... but its WAY TOO EARLY to start panicing about what will and won't be included as far as BSD tools stuff goes for OS X. >> BTW. I read the "first impressions on MacOS X S" article on stepwise. > >Which one was that? "Geek Porn", or what? There is NO FIRST IMPRESSION of Mac OS X Server on Stepwise. There is a first impressions of OpenStep from a Mac user perspective. And there is Geek Porn, which does outline the YB changes.. > >> The "no X, that's bad" comment illustrates another point: > >Which comment was that? > >> It's sad that >> we lost all those little NeXTSTEP programs with the NS-NIXSPAM>OS transition. > >I didn't expect anything else. > We've lost some.. sure.. but we've also gained alot of new functionality... and all of the old stuff could be reproduced by people willing to write some code -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: junkmailme@usa.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:42:24 -0500 Organization: Moo, Inc. Message-ID: <junkmailme-2002990042250001@ppp-36.ts-5.nyc.idt.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net> <spam-1902991630130001@quixote.macromedia.com> <2700AFC237B57616.1356B4722B1F10F1.0712FF591EF886A4@library-proxy.airnews.net> In article <2700AFC237B57616.1356B4722B1F10F1.0712FF591EF886A4@library-proxy.airnews.net>, nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote: [snip] > Apple didn't invent the GUI and there are more systems using M$ video > than QT. QT is still too lame to do live streaming video, and is > pretty much worthless for PCs. As for true type, it good to see they > did something worth having. No, they didn't invent the GUI, but without Apple the GUI would be *nothing* like it is today. (Things like dialogs, buttons, icons to represent files, menus for commands all came out of or were first put to good use by Apple). Live streaming is the *only* thing QT is missing, and it won't be missing for long. QT is *much* more powerful than the MS nonsense. I see your point. QT is so "lame" it's been used for everything from games to high-end broadcast quality video since before MS even _had_ multimedia technology. Worthless for PCs? It's the same for the PC as it is for the Mac. In addition to truetype, Apple has come up with some other nice things that I bet you like having. Like, you know, the desktop... -- znu <junkmailme@usa.net> Think Different (-: Yes, that *is* a real e-mail address.
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <19029923.5423@hotmail.com> Control: cancel <19029923.5423@hotmail.com> Date: 20 Feb 1999 06:51:35 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.19029923.5423@hotmail.com> Sender: netinvestigator@hotmail.com Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: FILTER.biggus@colorado.edu (jeff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:00:36 -0700 Organization: Univ of Colorado, Boulder Message-ID: <FILTER.biggus-2002990000370001@tele-anx0318.colorado.edu> References: <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <B2F38D15-93AFD@204.31.112.134> Phil Brewster wrote: >Basically, IMNSHO, nobody in Userland had much of a chance to 'want' >OpenDoc or not to 'want' it in the brief time it was actually available on >the market as a more-or-less finished product, namely from December 1996 >(IBM delivers first and only developer-ready beta of OpenDoc for Windows; >Apple bundles OpenDoc for the first time in a quasi-'final release' on >MacOS 7.6), to mid-March 1997.... I agree with this. I never used it until I heard of and used CyberDog, which I still use to this day (and prefer, I have to admit). I can only guess at what a OD system-wide would have been like. That being said, I see the reasons why it's not around anymore, timing being a huge one, as with so many of these ideas. I'm hoping that OSX can reclaim a lot of that ground because I'm getting quite fed-up with the way that I currently have to do things on computers. That I should ever have to run a certain program consciously is idiotic from a user point of view, and is really stalling much bigger progress to be made in content creation. just a couple of thoughts. -jeff
From: FILTER.biggus@colorado.edu (jeff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:03:51 -0700 Organization: Univ of Colorado, Boulder Message-ID: <FILTER.biggus-2002990003510001@tele-anx0318.colorado.edu> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews .net> <7al7td$cto$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Jonathan Haddad wrote: >> It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. >> >And then you are surprised when no one takes you seriously. Why bother >posting in a group for a platform you don't even care about?? It makes no >sense to me. remember the beauty of filters! they really make the ng experience much better. -jeff
From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 06:05:26 GMT Organization: University of Waterloo Message-ID: <919490726.245992@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> <7al72n$qh7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Cache-Post-Path: watserv4.uwaterloo.ca!unknown@bcr11.uwaterloo.ca In article <7al72n$qh7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: > >Who else has used the 'metatool' GUI admin tool from Sun's DiskSuite? I could never get it to work, mainly because I've never grokked Answerbook enough to be able to be able to read the documentation. >Sun's got poor GUI admin tools over a very solid foundation (Solaris), I'm not sure where that leaves IRIX, then! :) I'm always amazed that IBM's SMIT thing works as well as it does. It's ugly, but it does the job and is fairly easy-going about it. >So is >Apple gonna provide NetInfo software for Solaris, NT, and/or the MacOS, or is >everyone who's supporting a heterogenous network hosed? > I would think that Apple has opened the hose up pretty wide for such things. I have this bad feeling that at some point they're going to drop WOF/Solaris & friends "to focus on propelling the G3 Server in the enterprise marketplace". -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 07:34:31 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7aloi7$8ar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com> <36BB8B7F.571D7F6B@ericsson.com> <7akbeu$n40$1@news.inc.net> In article <7akbeu$n40$1@news.inc.net>, "Andrew Spencer" <andrew@e-net.com> wrote: > Unfortunately, He said he will be running OS X on this machine. This fully > supports SMP. Maybe Mac OS X will support SMP but Mac OS X Server does not and you'll have to wait about a year to get Mac OS X. > So do many applications in the current Mac OS. Just because > the OS doesn't support SMP doesn't mean that the apps won't. According to my operating systems text, you do not have a SMP operating system unless it allows the processors to behave "equivalently". Since you can only make system calls from one processor, you can't have SMP on the Mac OS. Also, what fraction of Mac OS applications benefit from any MP? I'll guess that it's less than 1%. > I know for a > fact that Photoshop will support as many processors as you can throw at it. > I have heard of 8 processor systems that are Mac OS based for video editing. > The Pentium II won't even support more than 2 processors. Are we arguing operating systems or microprocessors? > It doesn't crash, it does things fast, it boots > much faster, and I never, ever have to worry about whether my new serial > device is going to conflict with my mouse/modem/other serial device. Your computer never crashes? What does it do fast? Faster than what? You've been lucky. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Message-ID: <rex-2002990346030001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991710460001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <slrn7csas8.h0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> <ckoller-1902991933300001@235.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net> Organization: The Small & Mighty Group Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:30:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:30:32 PDT In article <ckoller-1902991933300001@235.los-angeles-09.ca.dial-access.att.net>, ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote: :O come on now. Most Mac-based apps are 90% consistent. It's not quite so :on the Winders side, which is why perhaps it wasn't quite so easy to :implement, but I'm sure it's possible to maintain some semblence of :consistency from OD part to part. None of the Parts I used felt all that weird. In general, OpenDOC developers followed Mac GUI conventions when designing the tool palettes, menus, dialogs, etc. of their Parts. :> What exactly does opendoc do to create a document that can be acted :> upon by "any tool"? : :IIRC, you create a container wherein the document resides. You then modify :the document (spell check it, add graphics, music, whatever) based on the :tools at your disposal. Yep. It felt like a generalized Clarisworks. It was like you were in one big app with a whole bunch of context sensitive tools. Back when I was writing my thesis, one thing I found myself doing was using a bunches of OpenDOC text editor Parts in containers as a note card system. If I wanted a new card, I just copied and pasted an existing part, and moved it where I wanted it. In effect, I was taking some Parts that did just one specific thing, and combining them to create a new application. You just can not do this sort of thing with traditional monolithic apps. :This isn't brand new stuff here. It was done initially on the Mac, then :essentially abandoned and picked up on Windows, where it serves monolithic :apps that are OLE aware. Yep, one of OpenDOC's goals was to be more lightweight than the traditional OLE-savvy app. :I apologize to people like Lawson who are probably cringing at my :explanation, but that's the way Apple explained it to me, and I swear I :was paying attention. OD was being deployed at the same time that Java was :cutting its teeth. Remember what we know as OpenDOC was composed of several parts. The core of OpenDOC (The OpenDOC Development Framework, Bento, Open Scripting Architecture, etc.) was being developed by Apple. IBM contributed SOM and was porting OpenDOC to OS/2. (I think they were planning on making Rexx OSA compliant...) Novell/Wordperfect were porting OpenDOC to Windows and providing the OLE/OpenDOC integration tools. I think the start of OpenDOC's downfall was Novell pulling out. Novell was going through a *very* rough time back then and just didn't have the resources to contribute what they had promised. Novell's problems really mucked things up for Apple & IBM, since they now had a hell of a lot more work to do. Also, Apple was ready to pull out *before* IBM. I saw Apple's 'OpenDOC-death' memo sent out to developers well before IBM announced it was pulling out. Since IBM wasn't developing the real heart of OpenDOC, they pretty much had to pull out when Apple did, but it should be noted that the death of OpenDOC did *not* stop IBM from continuing to work on SOM, its contribution to OpenDOC. I don't think JavaBeans contributed much to OpenDOC's demise, since, at the time, JavaBeans (and Java in general) didn't really work all that well, whereas OpenDOC had finally reached it's first really stable release (1.2) on the Mac OS, i.e. one technology worked the other didn't. Now the sad thing is that even *with* the YellowBox, Obj-C, Apple couldn't create a new and better implementation of OpenDOC. Most Mac OS X apps are going to be written to the very procedural Carbon API, so all of the wonderful OOPness of the YellowBox isn't going to help one whit. In order to get developers to adopt such a technology it would have to run on top of Carbon as well as in Mac OS 7.x/8.x. There's no way Apple's going to attempt to build something like that; they don't have anywhere near enough resources. Furthermore, they just don't have the industry clout to push such a paradigm shift anymore. Especially without IBM & Novell also pushing it. ::Eric
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Message-ID: <ytuz2.58125$641.140109@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:24:13 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:35:42 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA justin armstrong wrote in message <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam>... > >Also, what happened to Taligent? At first it became a wholly-owned part of IBM. IBM later absorbed Taligent totally. http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/taligent/ >It looks like they had some pretty >cool ideas, and then they just died. The only evidence I can find of >them now is an API reference for their CommonPoint framework mirrored on >some forgotten website. CommonPoint has more-or-less been absorbed into OpenClass. http://www.software.ibm.com/ad/visualage_c++/ >I find it really disturbing to think of all the money and people's lives >spent working on technologies that ended up scrapped... Yup. Taligent-related patents are owned by Object Technology Licensing located at 1 Infinity Loop in Cupertino. http://www.otlc.com/ --Ed.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akkof$gnr$1@nnrp02.primenet.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-1902991547070001@term5-35.vta.west.net> <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991710460001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Message-ID: <RCuz2.58126$641.140089@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:44:10 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:45:37 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Craig Koller wrote in message ... > >OLE is such a tiny, tiny aspect of what OD could have done. Little more >than the Publish/Subscribe feature in System 7, I'm surprised the DOJ >hasn't sought out any evidence of MS trying to kill OD (although it's >certainly possible at this point that they could have relied on Apple's and >IBM's own incompetence to destroy it). This is one of those ugly things that gets distorted in the forward march of history. Remember Apple did the reference OD development. IBM promised to deliver SOM for Mac OS (which it did) and OD on OS/2 (and integrated OD 1.0--or 1.1?--into the OS Oct. '96 with OS/2 Warp v4). What too many forget is that WordPerfect Corp. promised to deliver two KEY things: the OLE/OD glue and the Windows port. WordPerfect hadn't yet been bought by Novell when this was announced. Well, WordPerfect never delivered anything usable. Eventually IBM took over the OLE/OD glue and Windows port development. I recall IBM had to start over because WordPerfect's efforts were so bad. IBM finally delivered beta 2 of OD 1.1 for Windows around Sept. 1996 (checking the CD). I don't know if they ever shipped a GA version on Windows. I don't have it if they did. Because I think it's important, I'll reiterate that Claris was unbelievably late on the ClarisWorks OD container. IIRC, Lotus, despite having had been bought out by IBM, refused to endorse OD. AFAIK, the only really useful OD release was that on MacOS which isn't surprising as that was the reference version, the leading edge release. --Ed.
From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 20 Feb 1999 09:17:11 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7aluin$fuc$1@news.digifix.com> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com> <36BB8B7F.571D7F6B@ericsson.com> <7akbeu$n40$1@news.inc.net> <7aloi7$8ar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In-Reply-To: <7aloi7$8ar$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> On 02/19/99, quinlan@intergate.bc.ca wrote: >In article <7akbeu$n40$1@news.inc.net>, > "Andrew Spencer" <andrew@e-net.com> wrote: >> Unfortunately, He said he will be running OS X on this machine. >> This fully supports SMP. > >Maybe Mac OS X will support SMP but Mac OS X Server does not and >you'll have to wait about a year to get Mac OS X. Perhaps.. but there isn't any reason that Mac OS X Server 2.0 (1.5 or whatever) couldn't be released before Mac OS X is next year. Remember, its not intended as a single release product anymore. -- Scott Anguish <sanguish@digifix.com> Stepwise - OpenStep/Rhapsody Information <URL:http://www.stepwise.com>
From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: 20 Feb 1999 10:08:10 GMT Organization: Omni Development, Inc. Message-ID: <7am1ia$ogh$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> nospam@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) wrote: >andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com wrote: > >>mmccullo@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) wrote: >> >>> If ObjC is not supported, then any YB developer that uses >>> it now will pay later to convert their entire code base to Java. >> >>You're jumping to the conclusion that YB developers currently using Obj-C >>would still find the environment compelling if Obj-C were gone. [...] > >The point is what happens if you embrace ObjC now as a YB developer >and find Apple doesn't officially support it in MacOS X, or future >versions of MacOS X Server? Technically, that's not a point, it's a question. Your initial claim (see above) was that if Obj-C weren't supported later, Obj-C developers would have to convert their code to Java. My reply (see above) pointed out that without Obj-C Apple's offerings are substantially less appealing to many of the current YB developers, thus one shouldn't necessarily assume that YB developers using Obj-C would in fact port their products to Java in such a scenario. [snip: a bunch of stuff questioning why I think I can rely on Obj-C, and implying that I shouldn't.] Apple is dependant on Obj-C for at least some time because most of their MacOS X server apps and frameworks are written in it, either directly or indirectly in the case of Java apps which use the Java bridge to the Obj-C frameworks. Because much of Apple's future Java story is written in Obj-C. Because WebObjects (which I assume you will agree Apple feels is very important) is written in Obj-C and relies on other Obj-C frameworks. Given the strengths of Obj-C and the fact that Apple itself is heavily dependant on Obj-C, it seems to me unlikely that Apple would actively deny use of Obj-C to its developers. Even if they tried, we could actually grab gcc with its Obj-C support, class-dump the frameworks in order to generate headers, and continue on our merry way. (Albeit in a rather foul mood. :-) I'm not claiming to know if Obj-C will still be part of Apple's offerings five years from now. I am not claiming that Apple will ever _market_ Obj-C per se. I _am_ claiming that it will still be around for a few years absolute minimum. And I _really_ hate the logic of "Obj-C might not be an option in a few years, so despite the fact that I find it far superior I'm going to go with the inferior product." This is the kind of logic that, if widely adopted, would in fact seal the long-term fate of Obj-C: there's no point in Apple providing a superior solution of no-one is going to use it anyway. I've explained why I find it obvious that Obj-C will be around for at least the short to mid term. I've explained that many Obj-C developers with Java exposure find Obj-C compelling vs Java. (Though Java has it's own strengths, some of which I'd very much like to see incorporated into Obj-C.) I have no desire to participate in an ongoing flame war. If you have honest questions or concerns you wish to follow up with me about, send me email - I don't plan on posting any further on this thread. -- andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
From: nospam@nospam.net (Michael McCulloch) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why Mac OS X will fail. Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:06:46 GMT Organization: ICX Online, Inc. Message-ID: <36caf14a.8656745@news.icx.net> References: <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> <F7977B.HBF@T-FCN.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 1999 17:07:29 GMT maury@remove_this.istar.ca (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >In <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> "Ed Deans." wrote: > >> I'll remind everyone the NeXT technology is old. It may be good but it's >> old and it doesn't have nearly the lead it did back in '89 or even '94. > > Actually with the exception of a select few of the Java classes, it does. [...] > >> disappointed the NeXT technology seemed to have stagnated, resting on its >> laurels and having suffered neglect from NeXT Software. > > I'm sorry you believe this to be true. [...] > Ed, have you programmed under MacOS? How about Copeland? YellowBox? >Have you read the developer documentation for the items you talk about >above? Can you provide examples? No? While I'm not addressing the filter/import issues, I too think the lead NeXT had in development technology no longer exists. And even though it is still aesthetically pleasing, the interface doesn't thrill me either anymore. I very much like the context-sensitive right-click menus and the Intellimouse-like wheel in Windows (and increasingly available in Linux apps). Maury, have _you_ tried Borland's Delphi or C++Builder (and I mean for more than 5 minutes)? I've programmed in-depth projects in both NS and Delphi/BCB, and I find Delphi/BCB acceptable substitutes. They also target a much larger user base. The lightweight component creation methods in Delphi/BCB are actually nicer than IB IMO, and a large third-party base of components is out there. Give it a try. Michael McCulloch
Message-ID: <36CEA626.A5B17883@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:10:14 +0100 From: Rainer Frohnhoefer <rfrohn@ibm.net> Organization: IBM GS Corp. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathan Urban wrote: > > In article, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > > "In Mac OS X Server the BSD subsystem is installed by default, but is > removeable. In Mac OS X, its likely to be an additional installation." > > No formal commitment, but I haven't seen anyone who has said that it > _won't_ be available either. And non-negative comment is not necessarily a positive one for me. They said they'd ship MacOS X Server for x86 and didn't. > > When I tell them about the system trying to map all characters to uppercase > > (at least in the UI) > > What are you talking about?? Are you talking about the > case-preserving filesystem? Yep. Say, there is a command line. I want to create two files "One" and "ONE". If it isn't possible then posix is a joke (Ok, won't happen). If it is, will the two files show up in the GUI as "ONE" and "ONE" (bad), "One" and "ONE", or simply as "ONE" with "One" not showing up at all. If I decide to change "One"'s name to "ONe" in the GUI, can I do this? The average Mac user will naturally not have to worry about this at all. For me it's annoying. On NeXT, GUI and shell were in sync. (I guess there'll be an "Expert User" button somewhere that allows to show real file names.) > I'm sure that if Apple doesn't ship one with the product, someone else > will provide one for free download. Like the win32 - unix utils? Somebody would have to write a Terminal.app around the shell. I see that it would fill the gap. > > BTW. I read the "first impressions on MacOS X S" article on stepwise. > > Which one was that? "Geek Porn", or what? No, it was "MacOS X Server: First Impressions" to the ars technica site. > > The "no X, that's bad" comment illustrates another point: > > Which comment was that? "I have to say that I wish the GUI was less Mac-ish and more NeXT-ish. Heck, I wish it was just X-ish so I could choose my own stinking environment. But aside from the kernel technology, the OS was much less UNIX-ish than I had expected. Sure, it looks a lot like Unix at times, but there's not much to it - not yet, at least. The version I saw didn't have many of the tools I look for installed, and I was dissapointed to see that the was not built upon X11 (not a facet of UNIX per se). Yet, it was somehow odd to find Apache and other BSD-style love like sendmail waiting for me." (quoted from the text by Caesar) > > It's sad that > > we lost all those little NeXTSTEP programs with the NS-NIXSPAM>OS > > transition. > > I didn't expect anything else. Neither did I. That doesn't make me feel better. -- "To conserve energy we will temporarily switch off the light at the end of the tunnel" (I don't employ for my speaker)
From: mcgredo@otter.mbay.net (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: WebObjects, was Re: How Apple Can Sell Me A Mac (was Re: Apple-M$: Linux Nightmare?) Date: 17 Feb 1999 18:39:39 GMT Organization: A highly funded yet unoffical government agency Message-ID: <7af2db$aqh$1@remarQ.com> References: <79t509$ga9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36CA0288.3BF89F4D@oaai.com> <7adpgh$p85$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com> In article <36CAFA98.AA361FA4@lkba.com>, Larry Blische <larry@lkba.com> wrote: >Repeat after me: >Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. >Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant. Hmmmmm. "Reduce the number of lines of code. Be elegant." 50% reduction in lines, same information content. -- Don McGregor | "You really do watch The Learning Channel." mcgredo@mbay.net | --Mulder to Sculley
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:08:08 GMT Organization: n/a Message-ID: <7afb3g$n57$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> In article <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> wrote: > Is it possible to netboot a black NeXT machine from Mac OS X server? I have > a copy of the Rhapsody DR release and I never tried this, but since there is > so much NeXT code in there, I suspected it would work. According to the article at Ars Technica, http://www.ars-technica.com/reviews/1q99/os-x-first-1.html OS X Server will only NetBoot iMac's. NetBoot uses AppleTalk and a modified BootP protocol. Regards, Richard -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:14:29 GMT Organization: n/a Message-ID: <7afbfc$nbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> In article <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> wrote: > As a follow up, does anyone know if you can NXhost to black from Mac OS X > server. Is any of the old DPS code still there? No. Apple didn't want to pay the Adobe royalties. NXhost and DPS are gone. Richard -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:10:40 +0000 Organization: MediaNet Ireland Message-ID: <36CEC25F.5253BE5B@no.spam> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 14:11:10 GMT nate wrote: > On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000, justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> > wrote: > > It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. > > -- > Nathan A. Hughes > The University Theatre, KU > www.scenedesign.com uh...it looks like i've been misquoted
From: cbbrowne@news.hex.net (Christopher Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: HP and SGI to offer Linux References: <78na48$7b1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <36AF68D6.59D0F1CA@yahoo.com> <78qnop$971$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu> <36b1079c.17336308@news.demon.co.uk> <78rg2g$qg1$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <V7ws2.1789$e65.867@news1.giganews.com> <36BF8B92.90A64F2A@tca.com> Message-ID: <vaJy2.15432$lx.9354@news2.giganews.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:30:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:30:19 CDT On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:13:42 -0600, Jorge Landivar <landivar@tca.com> wrote: > > >Christopher Browne wrote: >> b) Head in exokernelled directions, > >exokernel? <http://http.cs.berkeley.edu/~gribble/osprelims/summaries/exokernel.html> Summary of Exokernel: An Operating System Architecture for Application-Level Res. mgmt <http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/exo.html> -- "Intel: Putting the `backward' in `backward compatability'" cbbrowne@ntlug.org- <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/osmk.html>
From: nxk3@po.cwru.edu (Natarajan Krishnaswami) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: 20 Feb 1999 15:34:25 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland OH (USA) Message-ID: <slrn7ctk8d.d5p.nxk3@yukon.SCL.CWRU.Edu> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com> <36BB8B7F.571D7F6B@ericsson.com> <7akbeu$n40$1@news.inc.net> (This thread is way off topic for comp.sys.next.marketplace, so I trimmed that off.) On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:43:10 -0600, Andrew Spencer <andrew@e-net.com> wrote: > Unfortunately, He said he will be running OS X on this machine. This fully > supports SMP. Um, MOSXS doesn't support SMP, and it's what's out now. (Unless he doesn't mind waiting a year for MOSX....) > I have heard of 8 processor systems that are Mac OS based for video editing. > The Pentium II won't even support more than 2 processors. A Pentium II _is_ one processor (=hardware), so your statement is meaningless. Besides which, at least IBM and ALR/Gateway sell 4-way Pentium II systems, Unisys has one that does 32, Data General's supports 64, and Intel's teraflop supercomputer consisted of ~7200 Pentium Pros; so even your intended statement is incorrect. > The fact is years of people trying to find a "bargain" in hardware has > driven price and reliability down. I don't think so: I got a major bargain on my TurboColor slab: 16/400 (now it's at 64/1080), 17" monitor, and OS4.2 (User, Developer, EOF, and media and manuals) for $300. Its UI is as responsive as a Pentium 100 running Win95. In terms both of physical engineering and OS and UI design, NeXT was a decade ahead of anything but a LispM. (If I had gobs of money, I'd get a 21264 (Alpha) with DU and OpenGenera.) <N/>
Message-ID: <36CC6EF4.8EC1EC66@psca.com> From: "Marc J. Driftmeyer" <mdrift@psca.com> Organization: Platinum Technologies Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:55:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:55:14 EDT I agree. Still have my NeXT Cube Mark Bessey helped configure for me while at NeXT running like a champ. The intel side runs great when it is Openstep for Mach Intel 4.2. The NT and Win95 portions are get three fingers quite a bit.. Too bad Microsoft had to waste 3 fingers in their design of the fault tolerantless OS. One is plenty thank you. Marc Eric Dew wrote: > > In article <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com writes: > >Speaking for myself and not who I work for or anyone else, I am > >personally a former employee of both NeXT Software Inc and Apple > >Computer Inc and I still have a NeXT Cube and Openstep for Mach running > >on Intel and WinNT as well. I most certainly will be running MacOS X > >Server and X when it is available. I personally amd deciding on whether > >to wait for my system purchases to be bought after WWDC or wait until > >September when Apple releases their new solutions. > > > >No way would I migrate away. The tools and the User Experience will > >just get better and damn the OS is just too damn good to not want to use > >and the power within MacOS X Server is awesome. It will be seen. > > > Hi Marc. > > As a former NeXT employee (currently working at Sun), I actually haven't > migrated from NeXT that much: I found the legacy opestep interface for Sun > and am using it on my desktop machine at work. The openstep Edit.app and > Terminal.app are working apps, and I use them instead of the solaris equivalent. > Although I don't know exactly what is a solaris equivalent to Edit.app. > > EDEW -- Marc J. Driftmeyer Consultant Platinum Technologies Inc. Enterprise Business Solutions 11100 NE 8th Street, Suite 400, Bellevue, WA 98004 425.688.9463 Fax 425.688.9497 www.platinum.com marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com
From: SPAMLESSforrest@west.net (Forrest Cameranesi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Message-ID: <SPAMLESSforrest-2002990953170001@term6-12.vta.west.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <ytuz2.58125$641.140109@news.san.rr.com> Organization: Obsidian m[*bZ@orwvjNs_Y`HucO|hS5B\Wtfn[I;-a7fYVxYNgy^&BAA8V:/PE)ifFiP$Y,n.^E IW*iW:)XcO:j!0sptC34>3492bv9g8xXx[,J+`fYSPIbr8+_9?HpL(5!eY$4_``#GbcR >NN3xw;&u1*2{u3 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:53:17 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:53:18 PDT In article <ytuz2.58125$641.140109@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: >Taligent-related patents are owned by Object Technology Licensing located at >1 Infinity Loop in Cupertino. >http://www.otlc.com/ Does anybody else find it odd that that is the address of Apple HQ? Who is OTL, really? Just a few key individuals at Apple who own the rights to everything Taligent-related? Or what? -- -Forrest Cameranesi forrest [at] west [dot] net "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
From: aa158@valleynet.on.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Q: Netboot Black from Mac OS X server? Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:40:43 GMT Organization: n/a Message-ID: <7ah8p9$bso$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <79qsqd$kg4@enews2.newsguy.com> <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com> <7afbfc$nbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cb3b79.0@news.depaul.edu> In article <36cb3b79.0@news.depaul.edu>, Jonathan W Hendry <jhendry@shrike.depaul.edu> wrote: > Quoth aa158@valleynet.on.ca on Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:14:29 GMT in <7afbfc$nbn$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>: > > In article <79ttpr$cq6@enews2.newsguy.com>, > > "Mitchell Allen" <alcmaeon@clanallen.com> wrote: > > > As a follow up, does anyone know if you can NXhost to black from Mac OS X > > > server. Is any of the old DPS code still there? > > > No. Apple didn't want to pay the Adobe royalties. NXhost and DPS > > are gone. > > The question is about OS X SERVER, which still has DPS and, presumably, > NXHosting. My mistake... Will all apps & utilties use DPS, or only Yellow box apps? Is EQD (Extend QuickDraw) present in OS X Server? I guess we'll find out... Richard -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Sean Luke <seanl@drinkme.cs.umd.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Sound capabilities Date: 20 Feb 1999 16:27:58 GMT Organization: U of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 Distribution: world Message-ID: <7amnqe$a1p$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> References: <75q4km$29e$1@52-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net> <slrn78a8mf.1rn.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <36BF82F4.E34852CF@tca.com> <joe.ragosta-0902990818490001@wil99.dol.net> <36c073b2.438937578@musky.state.wi.us> <joe.ragosta-0902991341140001@wil100.dol.net> <slrn7c15lv.f7p.jedi@dementia.mishnet> <jinx6568-0902991908420001@arc2a23.bf.sover.net> <7a46pc$mjo$1@xeres.hsh.stusta.mhn.de> <spam-1702991538380001@192.168.22.109> <7aj94i$89o$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 16:27:58 GMT User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.6 (sun4m)) In comp.sys.next.advocacy Bernhard Scholz <scholz@leo.org> wrote: > I also wanted to write and play with some sound software for > generating synthesis sounds, sound sampling and transforming etc. So > I'm still wondering whether the SoundKit from OpenStep made it into > YB or whether there is a good replacement. The SoundKit exists in full form on NeXTSTEP 0.x, 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, and OPENSTEP 4.x for Mach. The SoundKit exists in buggy but usable form (missing some sound formats, etc.) on Rhapsody DR1 and DR2. The SoundKit is only a framework (that is, it has no header files -- you can run programs linked against it, but cannot compile programs) in Rhapsody CR1, AKA MacOSX Server 1.0. You can probably successfully compile on MacOSX Server 1.0 by grabbing the headers from DR2. An additional useless little play-only object, NSSound, *does* have headers; this object will probably be the lowest-common-denominator object appearing also in YB for Windows as well, yuck. The SoundKit does NOT exist, and never has, on OPENSTEP (YB) for Windows. It is unknown whether or not the SoundKit will still be there for MacOSX proper. Most likely, it will be replaced by some kind of Quicktime solution. There are people working on a replacement, freeware SoundKit. Sean
From: SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@yahoo.com (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why Mac OS X will fail. Date: 18 Feb 1999 21:51:08 GMT Organization: Univ of Calif San Diego Message-ID: <slrn7cp2q9.jo0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> References: <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 1999 21:51:08 GMT On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:04:09 -0800, Ed Deans. <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: : :One problem that's still far, far too common is that of data exchange. :Filters. Here we are in 1999 and applications are still supplying their own :second-rate import/export filters for a limited range of formats that a :given developer cares to support. It's little better on the clipboard end. :I'm tired of lowest common denominator pastes, lost formatting and all those :things. Even PLAIN TEXT copied from Netscape into Word is a mess! Ever try :a system-wide find of text string in all your PDFs? Don't bother, at least :on Windows. : :I honestly don't know of any way Mac OS X attempts to address the problem of :basic data exchange. Services and filters. But it can't make programs do things they don't want to do. If a program doesn't understand some semantic format, nor does it export to it, the operating system has no power to do so. It can only provide development tools to make it easy to program that ability. OSX will be ok here. : I think, but are not certain, BeOS attempts to address :the filter issue. I'll note that OpenDoc offered a solution as did :Taligent's technology. Both are generally seen as quite dead. Windows is a :mess. :Another problem I find is window management when multitasking. I'm not :aware of any improved way Mac OS X will deal with the proliferation of :windows. The current Mac OS, imho, has a multitasking UI with a much too :coarse a grain when it comes to dealing with windows. Everything's handled :on a per-app basis. I should be able to view just the windows/documents I :need without having to fool with collapsed windows which can stack up and :get lost. This likely won't be a problem. NeXT had deep experience with getting window management right. Most X environments are the other way around, everything is "per window". That's what I use every day, and I find I'd like to be able to hide "per app" as NeXT did. BeOS' Tracker has a somewhat novel idea in dealing with windows :by grouping them in a pop-up off the app they belong to. OS/2 has the all :powerful Window List giving you near total control over every individual :window and neatly organized by app as a convenience not as a barrier. :Windows is a mess. If even standard MacOS X doesn't, I am sure that utilities to offer all these will pop up quickly. It's a small problem, easily solved. :Yet a third problem is the inability to mix-and-match tool sets. There's no :pleasure in needing WordPerfect and Word, for example, to get a document :together because one does some things better than the other. This is :compounded by the first problem mentioned. If I want WordPro's revision :marking and team editing support but need some special feature of Word or :WordPerfect I've got to start the document in the later and import into the :former or possibly use OLE embedding which is no panacea. On the graphics :end there's no reason to need two bitmap editors because one is better at :brute force pixel-pushing while the other has support for layers and more. :Components. OpenDoc and Taligent's technologies were meant to solve this. :I don't see OPENSTEP-derived Services solve this problem. Microsoft seems :to be moving this way in a slow fashion with Office 2000, for example. OpenDoc doesn't solve it. How do you interoperate an OpenDoc program with a non-OpenDoc program? You don't. How does one OD component interact with the other, if they don't have any common, and enforced, semantically sound interchange protocol or format? They don't. Making it "possible" to interchange data in a theoretical sense isn't the same as actually doing it. For a good example of the latter, take Quicktime. Naturally it is only for a single defined area, but that's the sort of effort that it takes to do it. Policy AND mechanism and a whole lot of industry arm-twisting and cajoling. :It's ironic Mac OS X, the replacement for the failed Copland project, will :actually be behind where Copland (with OpenDoc and later CommonPoint) was :meant to take Mac OS on the user end. There's no evidence the "advanced :Macintosh UI" is anything more than Mac OS with some NeXT features :(Terminal.app, Services) added in. : :It's sad to realize user-level problems identified by Apple and its :partner(s) which were supposed to be addressed around 4 years ago by some :past projected time lines won't be addressed by the end of the decade. Well, there were many other far more pressing concerns, and there wasn't evidence that the supposed solutions would have actually been solutions. :To win (and keep) converts to the Macintosh hardware, the *only* Mac OS X :platform, Mac OS X needs to be more than a "modern" or "buzzword compliant" :_Mac OS_, it needs to be modern in the [user] sense that Apple meant when it :started the Pink project in '86 and in the sense IBM and Apple meant for the :partnership in Taligent. If wishes were horses we'd all snag a ride. How do you compare something working vs a vague wishlist of impossible dreams? If you say "I think all programs ought to interoperate perfectly" that's nice, but how do you make it actually happen? XML is a meta-format for general 'document interchange' and is the best hope, but that only describes the grammar, and not any of the semantics. Still, every single pair of programs that you want to interoperate must somehow agree on common semantics, and specifically implement it. If their programmers don't want to do it, then it doesn't happen. :--Ed. -- * Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD * * "do || !do; try: Command not found" * /sbin/yoda --help
Message-ID: <36CF0538.B04507E3@home.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari=AE?= <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Dennis Richie on micro-kernals References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:55:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:55:52 PDT A similar argument applied to hardware is found here: http://www.best.com/~jpalmer/view/box.shtml It's by Joe Palmer, the guy who designed the BeBox. __ ari John Jensen wrote: > A little while ago the question of micro-kernal vs. monolithic kenrals > came up. My position was that performance was the bottom line, but I > predicted appologies for slower micro-kernals from Mac Advocates who would > say that micro-kernals were just "better". > > This morning I came across an interesting quote from Dennis Richie in > Linux Focus. > > http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/articles/article26.html > > <qoute> > Linux Focus: While C is a well established and completely defined > language, operating systems are still very much in evolution. New ideas > come as hardware gets faster and cheaper. What are the future key issues > that will be at the basis of OS design? In particular, what is your > opinion concerning micro-nano-kernels versus monolithic designs? > > Dennis: I don't think this is really an interesting issue, framed that > way. I do strongly prefer environments for applications that provide a > structured, common name-space and mechanisms for accessing resources, > along the lines of Unix (I include Linux here), Plan 9, Inferno. It looks > to me that the idea of micro- or nano-kernels didn't really become > important in real use, at least as the basis for general-purpose systems. > In practice, what seems to happen is that the micro-kernel becomes > specialized to the macro-system on top of it. It might remain a useful > tool for internal structuring of a system, but doesn't really live on its > own. Of course (the world being complicated) there are cases where very > simple operating systems are useful for small, appliance devices that > aren't intended for general-purpose use, whether desktop or machine room. > </quote> > > It's nice when the guy who wrote UNIX supplies a supporting position ;-). > > John
From: John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Dennis Richie on micro-kernals Date: 20 Feb 1999 17:00:17 GMT Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 Message-ID: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> A little while ago the question of micro-kernal vs. monolithic kenrals came up. My position was that performance was the bottom line, but I predicted appologies for slower micro-kernals from Mac Advocates who would say that micro-kernals were just "better". This morning I came across an interesting quote from Dennis Richie in Linux Focus. http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/articles/article26.html <qoute> Linux Focus: While C is a well established and completely defined language, operating systems are still very much in evolution. New ideas come as hardware gets faster and cheaper. What are the future key issues that will be at the basis of OS design? In particular, what is your opinion concerning micro-nano-kernels versus monolithic designs? Dennis: I don't think this is really an interesting issue, framed that way. I do strongly prefer environments for applications that provide a structured, common name-space and mechanisms for accessing resources, along the lines of Unix (I include Linux here), Plan 9, Inferno. It looks to me that the idea of micro- or nano-kernels didn't really become important in real use, at least as the basis for general-purpose systems. In practice, what seems to happen is that the micro-kernel becomes specialized to the macro-system on top of it. It might remain a useful tool for internal structuring of a system, but doesn't really live on its own. Of course (the world being complicated) there are cases where very simple operating systems are useful for small, appliance devices that aren't intended for general-purpose use, whether desktop or machine room. </quote> It's nice when the guy who wrote UNIX supplies a supporting position ;-). John
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals (was: Re: Dennis Richie on micro-kernals) Date: 20 Feb 1999 14:48:22 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7an3i6$5gj$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 19:48:32 GMT No comment on my own position, but I just ran across this on Slashdot: "I'm not saying that they were knowingly dishonest, perhaps they were simply stupid." -- Linus Torvalds, commenting on those who really thought Microkernels were wise. (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates) "The idea of abstracting away the one thing that must be blindingly fast, the kernel, is inherently counter productive." -- Linus Torvalds on Microkernels (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates) "If you want an application to be portable, you don't necessarily create an abstraction layer like a microkernel so much as you program intelligently." -- Linus Torvalds on Microkernels (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates) "The funny thing is if you actually read those papers, you find that, while the researchers were applying thier optimizational tricks on a microkernel, in fact those same tricks could be applied to traditional kernels to accelerate their execution." -- Linus Torvalds on Microkernels (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates)
From: agave_@hotmail.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Dennis Richie on micro-kernals Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:56:01 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7an40e$ais$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> In article <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: > A little while ago the question of micro-kernal vs. monolithic kenrals > came up. My position was that performance was the bottom line, but I > predicted appologies for slower micro-kernals from Mac Advocates > who would say that micro-kernals were just "better". > Why would Mac advocates disagree with your position? No current or future Apple operating system will use a micro-kernel architecture. > This morning I came across an interesting quote from Dennis Richie in > Linux Focus. > > http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/articles/article26.html > > <qoute> [...] > [a micro-kernel] might remain a useful tool for internal > structuring of a system, but doesn't really live on its own. [...] > It's nice when the guy who wrote UNIX supplies a supporting position ;-). > Which is the same position as Avie Tevanian. Looks like everyone agrees here :) -- Ian P. Cardenas -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: willadams@aol.com (WillAdams) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 21 Feb 1999 00:43:04 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <hugh-200219991618104237@67.minneapolis-01-02rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> Message-ID: <19990220194304.11346.00000463@ng-cg1.aol.com> Don said: >> So, if your directory has only the file "one" in it, you can open that file > >> by specifying any case whatsoever--"ONE", "One", etc. But if you have >_both_ >> "one" and "One" in that directory, then to open a file you must specify >> exactly which one to open with "one" or "One" and nothing else will work, >ie >> "ONE" is file not found. It's a compromise, but one which breaks some file naming conventions--for example, when working on a typeface, I create a file which matches each letterform, i.e. a.fh4 means that I've created the lower-case a--searching on A.fh4 after I've made a, but before I've made A comes up null, and I know I've got to create said letterform--the proposed Mac system introduces the nuisance of having to find the a.fh4 file, verify that it's not the A by either examining the filename in the Finder or by opening the file and looking at it. William William Adams http://members.aol.com/willadams Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 14:41:56 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7an364$5fc$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> <36CEA626.A5B17883@ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 19:42:06 GMT In article <36CEA626.A5B17883@ibm.net>, rainer@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de wrote: > Nathan Urban wrote: > > In article, Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> wrote: > > "In Mac OS X Server the BSD subsystem is installed by default, but is > > removeable. In Mac OS X, its likely to be an additional installation." > > No formal commitment, but I haven't seen anyone who has said that it > > _won't_ be available either. > And non-negative comment is not necessarily a positive one for me. That's nice, but like I said: people should stop spreading FUD. You don't know what Apple will or won't do; don't go around telling people that OS X won't have the command line available. > > > When I tell them about the system trying to map all characters to > > > uppercase (at least in the UI) > > What are you talking about?? Are you talking about the > > case-preserving filesystem? > Yep. Say, there is a command line. I want to create two files "One" and > "ONE". If it isn't possible then posix is a joke (Ok, won't happen). If > it is, will the two files show up in the GUI as "ONE" and "ONE" (bad), > "One" and "ONE", or simply as "ONE" with "One" not showing up at all. Where on Earth did you get the idea that the filesystem automatically capitalizes filenames? Haven't you ever used a Mac? It doesn't do that. If you create a file called "One" or "ONE" or whatever, then its capitalization will remain whatever you gave it. _However_, you can only have one file at a time with the same letters, and you can request the file under variant capitalization. So, for example, you can create a file called "ONe" and that will be its name, but you can ask for it under "one", "One", "ONE", etc. and it will retrieve that file. Consequently, you couldn't have two different files named "One" and "ONE" in the same directory; if there's one called "One" and you try to create another called "ONE", it will think you're referring to the already-existing "One". At least, that's my understanding. > If I decide to change "One"'s name to "ONe" in the GUI, can I do this? Sure. > The average Mac user will naturally not have to worry about this at > all. For me it's annoying. On NeXT, GUI and shell were in sync. On the Mac, I think this is built into the filesystem, not at the GUI layer; if so, the case behavior would probably hold on the command-line as well. > > I'm sure that if Apple doesn't ship one with the product, someone else > > will provide one for free download. > Like the win32 - unix utils? I suppose. > Somebody would have to write a Terminal.app around the shell. Yes. Or maybe Stuart.app could be ported. > > > The "no X, that's bad" comment illustrates another point: > > Which comment was that? > "I have to say that I wish the GUI was less Mac-ish and more NeXT-ish. > Heck, I wish it was just X-ish so I could choose my own stinking > environment. But aside from the kernel technology, the OS was much less > UNIX-ish than I had expected. Sure, it looks a lot like Unix at times, > but there's not much to it - not yet, at least. The version I saw didn't > have many of the tools I look for installed, and I was dissapointed to > see that the was not built upon X11 (not a facet of UNIX per se). Yet, > it was somehow odd to find Apache and other BSD-style love like sendmail > waiting for me." > (quoted from the text by Caesar) There's relatively little difference between OS X Server and NEXTSTEP, you know. (Particularly in regard to the "no X" part.) > > > It's sad that > > > we lost all those little NeXTSTEP programs with the NS-NIXSPAM>OS > > > transition. > > I didn't expect anything else. > Neither did I. That doesn't make me feel better. <shrug> It wouldn't have been very feasible. A lot of those little NEXTSTEP programs are no longer available in source form anyway. Then there's all the effort of trying to maintain the old NeXT libraries, which would soon be useless as it seems Adobe isn't playing nice with DPS (which the NeXT libraries rely upon).
From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Dennis Richie on micro-kernals Date: 20 Feb 1999 20:09:47 -0500 Organization: Quick and Associates Message-ID: <7anmcr$qpn@papoose.quick.com> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an40e$ais$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <junkmailme-2002991614120001@ppp-25.ts-5.nyc.idt.net> In article <junkmailme-2002991614120001@ppp-25.ts-5.nyc.idt.net>, znu <junkmailme@usa.net> wrote: >In article <7an40e$ais$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, agave_@hotmail.com wrote: > >> In article <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, >> John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: >> > A little while ago the question of micro-kernal vs. monolithic kenrals >> > came up. My position was that performance was the bottom line, but I >> > predicted appologies for slower micro-kernals from Mac Advocates >> > who would say that micro-kernals were just "better". >> > >> >> Why would Mac advocates disagree with your position? No current or >> future Apple operating system will use a micro-kernel architecture. > >MacOS X Server and MacOS X will be based on a customized version of the >Mach microkernel (Avie Tevanian was part of the original Mach team actualy >IIRC). As for microkernels being better, they do have the advantage of (in >theory) making an OS more portable. It's merely a matter of semantics. NeXTStep, OPENSTEP, and Rhapsody had underlying cores which contained Mach, but they were not microkernels. The Mach and Unix layers were wedded in a tightly integrated fashion. It provides some level of portability, but mostly provides interprocess communication and memory models which are more useful than those found in straght Unix. MacOS X will probably not be a true microkernel implementation, either. Mach has some nice features, and can be implemented as a separate microkernel supporting a subsidiary OS in user space. It does not have to be implemented this way. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Quick & Associates NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | If only the HMO would cover my allergy to gravity. ) |
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 21:11:05 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <7an8d9$fd6$1@news.xmission.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> <36CEA626.A5B17883@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 21:11:05 GMT Rainer Frohnhoefer <rfrohn@ibm.net> wrote: > Nathan Urban wrote: > > > When I tell them about the system trying to map all characters to > > > uppercase (at least in the UI) > > > > What are you talking about?? Are you talking about the > > case-preserving filesystem? > > Yep. Say, there is a command line. I want to create two files "One" > and "ONE". If it isn't possible then posix is a joke (Ok, won't > happen). If it is, will the two files show up in the GUI as "ONE" > and "ONE" (bad), "One" and "ONE", or simply as "ONE" with "One" not > showing up at all. If I decide to change "One"'s name to "ONe" in > the GUI, can I do this? > > The average Mac user will naturally not have to worry about this at > all. For me it's annoying. On NeXT, GUI and shell were in sync. (I > guess there'll be an "Expert User" button somewhere that allows to > show real file names.) The way it was explained to me, this is not the way things will work at all. When you create a file, the case you specified will be stored and used. I assume that the GUI will display it as stored. When you open/read the file, the file that is opened is according to this ruleset: 1. If there's only one file with the name, then case doesn't matter. 2. If there's more that one file with the same name, differing only by case, then the match must be exact (ie, it becomes case sensitive). In other words, everything that works in a case sentitive environment still works the same, with just the addition of one minor "convenience" feature. So, if your directory has only the file "one" in it, you can open that file by specifying any case whatsoever--"ONE", "One", etc. But if you have _both_ "one" and "One" in that directory, then to open a file you must specify exactly which one to open with "one" or "One" and nothing else will work, ie "ONE" is file not found. But this only changes opening existing files. When you create a file, the case _is_ important and _is_ retained. I can't imagine the GUI obscuring that. This change is so minor that I can live with it. As long as the UNIX stuff works as it should... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 21:11:20 GMT Organization: MiscKit Development Message-ID: <7an8do$fd6$2@news.xmission.com> References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> <7al72n$qh7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 1999 21:11:20 GMT "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> wrote: > Say, where can I get a cross-platform NetInfo solution nowadays? You can't. > I > heard Xedoc's hadta give up on supporting NetInfo ports to other > platforms. The last I heard was that Apple pulled their license, so they're out of that business. > So is Apple gonna provide NetInfo software for Solaris, > NT, and/or the MacOS, No. > or is everyone who's supporting a heterogenous > network hosed? More or less. Actually, I think that they're trying to get Netinfo to play nice with LDAP, so in effect if you're using LDAP everywhere else, then Netinfo should just integrate into that, without needing to put Netinfo itself on the other non-Netinfo boxes. I guess time will tell if that will work...and if you're hosed or not. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com <a href="http://www.yacktman.org/don/index.html">My home page</a>
From: junkmailme@usa.net (znu) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Dennis Richie on micro-kernals Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:14:12 -0500 Organization: Moo, Inc. Message-ID: <junkmailme-2002991614120001@ppp-25.ts-5.nyc.idt.net> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an40e$ais$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> In article <7an40e$ais$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, agave_@hotmail.com wrote: > In article <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>, > John Jensen <jjens@primenet.com> wrote: > > A little while ago the question of micro-kernal vs. monolithic kenrals > > came up. My position was that performance was the bottom line, but I > > predicted appologies for slower micro-kernals from Mac Advocates > > who would say that micro-kernals were just "better". > > > > Why would Mac advocates disagree with your position? No current or > future Apple operating system will use a micro-kernel architecture. MacOS X Server and MacOS X will be based on a customized version of the Mach microkernel (Avie Tevanian was part of the original Mach team actualy IIRC). As for microkernels being better, they do have the advantage of (in theory) making an OS more portable. [snip] -- znu <junkmailme@usa.net> Think Different (-: Yes, that *is* a real e-mail address.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? From: edwin@spamblock.chicagonet.net (Edwin E. Thorne) Message-ID: <1dnis0t.11lx8mc10ahwl9N@pppsl1508.chicagonet.net> References: <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <B2F38D15-93AFD@204.31.112.134> User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:20:10 EST Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:19:09 -0600 Phil Brewster <pjbrew@nospam.com> wrote: [snip of an excellent history of OpenDoc, and many good insights, all acknowledged] I'm a little puzzled by the fact that OpenDoc is on the OS/2 Warp version 4 CD. It's an optional install, but it's there. I can't help but to wonder why. -- Remove the spamblock to reply to me.
From: rex@smallandmighty.com (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why Mac OS X will fail. Message-ID: <rex-1802992129400001@cc497300-a.wlgrv1.pa.home.com> References: <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> <slrn7cp2q9.jo0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> Organization: The Small & Mighty Group Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:14:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:14:10 PDT In article <slrn7cp2q9.jo0.SPAMBGONEmbkennelSPAMBGONE@lyapunov.ucsd.edu>, mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com wrote: ::Yet a third problem is the inability to mix-and-match tool sets. There's no ::pleasure in needing WordPerfect and Word, for example, to get a document ::together because one does some things better than the other. This is ::compounded by the first problem mentioned. If I want WordPro's revision ::marking and team editing support but need some special feature of Word or ::WordPerfect I've got to start the document in the later and import into the ::former or possibly use OLE embedding which is no panacea. On the graphics ::end there's no reason to need two bitmap editors because one is better at ::brute force pixel-pushing while the other has support for layers and more. ::Components. OpenDoc and Taligent's technologies were meant to solve this. ::I don't see OPENSTEP-derived Services solve this problem. Microsoft seems ::to be moving this way in a slow fashion with Office 2000, for example. : :OpenDoc doesn't solve it. How do you interoperate an OpenDoc program :with a non-OpenDoc program? You don't. That's not accurate. Apple's OSA was a major component of OpenDOC also. Scriptability was a very high priority, and OpenDOC Parts could send and receive AppleEvents. If I recall correctly, all OpenDOC Parts had to support some minimum suite of AppleEvents. Copying and Pasting certainly worked between OpenDOC Parts and traditional applications. Also let's not forget that there was a lot of work done on libraries so that traditional applications could act as containers for OpenDOC parts. Before OpenDOC was killed this was high on the list of future features for ClarisWorks. (OpenDOC-savvy demos of Clarisworks were shown to developers.) ClarisWorks is probably the perfect example of the need for something like OpenDOC. There was also some integration via InternetConfig. For example, I had CyberDog setup as my default mail handler, double-clicking on an email address in the Finder would launch the CyberDog mail handler part. : How does one OD component :interact with the other, if they don't have any common, and enforced, :semantically sound interchange protocol or format? Have you looked at the OpenDOC implementation and specs at all? A lot of what you're saying couldn't be done *was* done. There *were* interchange protocols and formats. Why do you think they bothered creating Bento? They wanted a uniform system for handling document revisions and keeping track of all of the particular types of data in a given document. ::Eric
Message-ID: <36CCF8B2.94E48CC3@yahoo.com> From: Rex Riley <rr6013@yahoo.com> Organization: Starr.Com MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: NeXT's proposal to CDE (was Re: Where NeXT?) References: <FILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.edu> <36C47DDC.52E70121@psca.com> <edewF7A72w.KuF@netcom.com> <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com> <919285745.668470@watserv4.uwaterloo.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 05:56:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:56:25 PDT David Evans wrote: > In article <7af5pb$r4q$1@news.apple.com>, > Mark Bessey <mbessey@apple.com (no spam, please)> wrote: > >Anybody want to comment on how sad it is that Sun's CDE > >environment *still* isn't better than OpenStep, even after a couple years of > >neglect? > > > > I recall reading somewhere that some people at NeXT wanted to submit its > interface for consideration before the CDE UI was frozen into the steaming log > that it is. Apparently it didn't happen for various reasons; anyone know > more? > I don't know more... but does prior behavior of trashing technology investments have any bearing on who you do business with? -r
From: Hugh Johnson <hugh@semplicesoft.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 20 Feb 1999 22:16:40 GMT Organization: Semplice Software Message-ID: <hugh-200219991618104237@67.minneapolis-01-02rs.mn.dial-access.att.net> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> <36CEA626.A5B17883@ibm.net> <7an8d9$fd6$1@news.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/3.1.6 In article <7an8d9$fd6$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) wrote: > > So, if your directory has only the file "one" in it, you can open that file > by specifying any case whatsoever--"ONE", "One", etc. But if you have _both_ > "one" and "One" in that directory, then to open a file you must specify > exactly which one to open with "one" or "One" and nothing else will work, ie > "ONE" is file not found. But this only changes opening existing files. When > you create a file, the case _is_ important and _is_ retained. I can't > imagine the GUI obscuring that. > > This change is so minor that I can live with it. As long as the UNIX stuff > works as it should... But it will have to increase the Boyer-Moore search-time in either one mode or the other (Mac mode or UNIX mode). Mac mode needs to use a bit mask, 0xDF I think. If that's the default, unix suffers, and vice-versa. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Johnson hugh@deletethis.semplicesoft.com Simple Tools Semplice Software hughj@deletethis.kagi.com for 612-792-0583 BHuey@deletethis.att.net Smart People <http://www.semplicesoft.com> -- Home of Font Gander Pro -------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rr6013@yahoo.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Why Mac OS X will fail. Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 06:43:14 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7aj161$tqm$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com> In article <Vpby2.56040$641.109059@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: > Now that I got your attention... After some thought I'm going out on a limb > and seriously questioning Mac OS X as a viable platform. Mac OS X is > "modern" to Mac users but falls well short of addressing many problems > plaguing most users of today or in many cases of yesterday as well. > > With YB diminishing/disappearing on MacOS X Server, we are witnessing selective product differentiation of Rhapsody to meet the needs of a select target market - Macintosh. In the respect that we have taken the long way to getting to MacOS X Server, alot of baggage was left along the road. They don't call'em Roadmaps for nothing, so save any auto metaphor flames. In all respects this probably will work out to have been the right thing to do for Macintosh. MacOS X Server provides Apple, Macintosh clients real value in scaling. Apple will sell a mountain of product as a result of MacOS X Server. Left along the roadside is essentially all of OPENSTEP... Hmmmm? I said roadside, not roadkill. Is "one OS fit all" really the holy grail? OPENSTEP is viril enough to spawn still more offspring. Apple has many, many more "options" without CR1 Rhapsody. Marketing is much better off with MacOS X Server than the Rhapsody configuration. In fact, OPENSTEP is much better off without the Macintosh configuration isn't it? Great clarity is now Apple's and they can do anything they want with OPENSTEP - once they've taken care of Macintosh... ... including leaving OPENSTEP where it fell :-( -r " a profitable Jewish business tycoon explained 60% marketshare as 10% here, 20% there, another 5%, etc... pretty soon you get to 60% of the market." Doc Ratner -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Rainer Frohnhoefer <SPAMNIXrfrohn@ibm.netNIXSPAM> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:45:04 +0100 Organization: IBM GS Corp. Message-ID: <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathan Urban wrote: NIXSPAM> NIXSPAM> In article <SPAMNIXSPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM>, Rainer Frohnhoefer wrote: NIXSPAM> NIXSPAM> > Whenever I talked to friends about MacOS X, they NIXSPAM> > lost interest in the moment I mentioned Apple's plans to rip out the NIXSPAM> > Unix environment. NIXSPAM> NIXSPAM> What plans are those? Everything I've heard has pointed toward the NIXSPAM> Unix environment being available in OS X, perhaps with Terminal.app and NIXSPAM> some of the command-line utilities being optional installs. Sheesh. NIXSPAM> Don't drive people away with FUD. Sorry about the bad wording ('environment'). There's still no confirmation that a shell & the unix utils will be delivered with MacOSX. I mean: Not as a third party product but bundled with the OS. Be it an install option or not. The shell is not just another goodie you get with Unix. It's a essential part of the un*x experience. A GUI imposes an upper limit to the amount of work you can achieve within an amount of time. *You* know the great environment that NeXT had. *You* know working with it was fun and, potentially, MacOS X could rise beyond that. The average freak "power" user today considers Linux the greatest invention since sliced bread, X windows the best of all windows systems and StarOffice (or the likes) the solution to all document/presentation problems. When I tell them about the system trying to map all characters to uppercase (at least in the UI) and about an extra fee for a usable shell they'll balk out. We're talking here about someone who is at least aware there's an alternative to NT. (If the above is wrong and Apple has committed to a complete Un*x evironment, please accept my apologies.) BTW. I read the "first impressions on MacOS X S" article on stepwise. The "no X, that's bad" comment illustrates another point: It's sad that we lost all those little NeXTSTEP programs with the NS-NIXSPAM>OS transition. Apps like Abscissa.app were so incredibly useful, when combined with Diagram. The average MacOS X (S) user will never know what NS was all about because YB'll have to start almost from scratch. (That doesn't mean OmniWeb is a bad start --- it's my favourite browser). - So long, Rainer. -- "To conserve energy we will temporarily switch off the light at the end of the tunnel" (I don't employ for my speaker)
From: "Marc J. Driftmeyer" <mdrift@psca.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: New Apple faq on OS X Server ! Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:35:53 -0800 Organization: Platinum Technologies Inc. Message-ID: <36CCCE09.5437E723@psca.com> References: <79982b$noe$1@news.tudelft.nl> <79baav$ohg$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79bli5$9fc$1@bartlet.df.lth.se> <79e5ja$5p5$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <79g3k8$1os6$2@piglet.cc.uic.edu> <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <36cc3ad5.0@news.depaul.edu> <36CC8E02.75361C20@tone.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes they are building a new YB Finder. They have been for the past 2 years. I won't say whom is on the work, just that they will extend where NeXTSTEP and Openstep 4.0pr1 left off. I DO NOT SPEAK FOR PLATINUM.. PURELY MY OPINIONS AND PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE.. Michael wrote: > > Jonathan W Hendry wrote: > > > Quoth quinlan@intergate.bc.ca on Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:25:21 GMT in <79gqt5$cqt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>: > > > > > If Apple is really committed to YellowBox then why > > > wouldn't they write the Mac OS X Finder using the YB? > > > > Because that would require maintaining TWO versions of the Finder, > > one for OS X and one for OS 8/9, which won't have a YellowBox? That > > would be silly, and a waste of resources, considering that there's no > > theoretical reason why a Carbon Finder couldn't be made to interoperate > > with YellowBox apps. > > > > They'd be better off using their resources elsewhere. > > I don't see the point of this debate. Since there is a finder of sorts in DR2 and an improved one in > OSX Server, and carbon isn't available yet, they are obviously developing a YB finder (or am I missing > something). It already exists, what are you debating? > > Michael -- Marc J. Driftmeyer Consultant Platinum Technologies Inc. Enterprise Business Solutions 11100 NE 8th Street, Suite 400, Bellevue, WA 98004 425.688.9463 Fax 425.688.9497 www.platinum.com marc.driftmeyer@platinum.com
From: steve@chaos.borrelli.org ((null)) Newsgroups: gnu.gnustep.discuss,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: GNUstep-RedHat HOWTO, version .22 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:39:33 +0000 Organization: STARNET, L.L.C. Message-ID: <5tiia7.cur.ln@chaos.borrelli.org> I recently wrote the GNUstep-RedHat HOWTO after struggling for several days trying to compile GNUstep. Hopefully some ex-NeXTers will find this document useful. :) The newest version will always be at http://borrelli.org/gnustep-RH.txt cheers, _steve ================================================================ Welcome to the GNUstep-RedHat HOWTO. My goal is to increase the number of people running (and developing) GNUstep by making the compilation as easy as possible for users of RedHat 5.2. I do not claim that this is the "correct" way of installing GNUstep and ask you to please refer to the real GNUstep HOWTO at: ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/gnustep/GNUstep-HOWTO The main GNUstep pages are located at http://www.gnustep.org. The most up-to-date version of this document can be found at http://borrelli.org/gnustep-RH.txt -- This HOWTO concentrates on RedHat 5.2 because this particular distribution comes with all the tools you need to build GNUstep so you don't have to spend your time downloading and compiling tools and libraries. Roughly speaking, the tasks you need to complete are as follows: * Installing a handful of RPMS from your RedHat 5.2 CD * Downloading one file * Cutting and pasting configure parameters * Compiling, Installing * Cutting and pasting environment variables If you read through this once before starting, I think you will see that installing GNUstep can be quite simple and painless. Of course, since GNUstep is still in heavy development, chances are that things can break at any time. When I first created this guide, I installed a fresh copy of RedHat 5.2 onto a blank partition, making sure to install all the development tools and TeX. I then went through the steps outlined here and successfully compiled the CVS snapshot from January 1999. I checked this version of the HOWTO against the February 17, 1999 GNUstep snapshots. I really appreciate the feedback I have gotten (from folks all over the world!) and wish to thank everyone for their suggestions and bugfixes. Please drop me a line if you have any problems or wish to make comments. Good luck! _steve Author: Steven Borrelli <steve@!nospam!borrelli.org> $Id: gnustep-RH.txt,v 0.22 1999/02/19 02:26:39 steve Exp $ Start of GNUstep-RedHat HOWTO... ====================================================================== Phase I: Download and Compile GNUstep Step 1: Preparation for GNUstep ( 10 minutes ) [Summary for advanced users: make sure egcs-objc and tetex packages are installed] We need to lay a little groundwork. For most RedHat users, this should be a straightforward process. RPM issues: The good news here is that every tool and library you need to compile GNUstep already comes on your RedHat 5.2 CD. All you have to do is make sure all the tools are installed. (I am going to assume you have installed the basic gnu and X development tools.) The main gotcha with GNUstep is that we are going to use egcs instead of gcc to compile it. Let's make sure you have the objective-c libraries for egcs by querying your machine's RPM database: rpm -q egcs-objc If it tells you the package is not installed, get the package off the CD-ROM and install it with: rpm -Uvh egcs-objc-1.0.3a-14.i386.rpm If you get dependency errors, you are going to have to install the packages it says are missing. This can be a pain, as you might run into a chain of dependencies. (If you find yourself struggling with RPM dependencies, Michael Giddings has suggested using the "rpmfind" tool. rpmfind is available at: http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/rpmfind.html ) ---------- The other gotcha you will come across is when GNUstep tries to create project documentation. Make sure you have the TeX packages installed. Again, these packages come on the RedHat 5.2 CD. Type in rpm -qa | grep tex Among other entries, you should get the following. .. tetex-0.9-6 tetex-afm-0.9-6 tetex-dvilj-0.9-6 tetex-dvips-0.9-6 tetex-latex-0.9-6 tetex-xdvi-0.9-6 .. If you don't have these packages installed, you can install them with the command rpm -Uvh <name of rpm file> That's all the preparation you have to do. We are ready to become GNUsteppers! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Step 2: Let's get GNUstep (time 5 minutes + download time for 3 megabytes) [Summary for advanced users: get gstep-core snapshot from ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/gnustep/snap ] Snapshots of the GNUstep source code tree are released on a regular basis. You can find the most recent snapshot at: ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/gnustep/snap Make sure you are in a directory where you can download files... [steve@chaos src]$ ftp alpha.gnu.org Connected to melange.gnu.org. <login, blah blah....> ftp> cd /gnu/gnustep/snap You should see about ten files. We only want to download: gstep-core-99xxxx.tar.gz With the xxxx being the date of the latest snapshot. As of Q1 1999, gstep-core is about 3 megabytes in size and Make sure you are in binary mode (type bin at the ftp prompt) and download gstep-core. Step 2 is Done! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Step 3: Compile GNUstep (5 minutes your time, lots of computer time) [Summary for advanced users: parameters to pass to 'configure' described below] Make sure the gstep-core-99xxxx.tar.gz file is in the directory where you want to place your GNUstep source tree and extract it: tar zxvf gstep-core-99xxxx.tar.gz I like to rename the directory that is created to just plain ol' "gnustep". mv gstep-99xxxx/ gnustep/ Let's cd into the gnustep directory and run the configure script. cd gnustep *** IMPORTANT *** Make sure you run configure as follows. This is will set gnustep to use egcs as a compiler, install in /usr/local/GNUstep, and use the xraw gui library. If you want, cut and paste this right into your shell prompt. Make sure it executes as a one-line command. CC='egcs' ./configure --prefix=/usr/local/GNUstep \ --with-library-combo=gnu-gnu-gnu-xraw (We use xraw because it is easier to set up than DGS and is currently supported better under GNUstep.) Now, hopefully nothing has exploded on us and the ./configure script has completed happily. You are now at the moment of truth. Remember that GNUstep is still a work in progress, so it may not compile cleanly. Type make and let the compiler do it's thing. On my Pentium 90 with Kernel 2.2.0 it takes about an hour to compile. I've heard reports that it takes only a few minutes on faster systems. The only step left is installing GNUstep onto your system. As root just type make install and you are done with your basic GNUstep installation. ====================================================================== Part II: Playing with GNUstep 1. Setting up your GNUstep environment (3 minutes) You need to set up your shell environment in order for GNUstep applications to work correctly. I've added the following lines to the end of the bash_profile file in my home directory (again, I am assuming you installed GNUstep in /usr/local/GNUstep). By adding these lines, your environment will automatically be set correctly the next time you log in. #-------- 8< cut here 8< ------------ # Set up the GNUstep environment GNUSTEP_SYSTEM_ROOT=/usr/local/GNUstep export GNUSTEP_SYSTEM_ROOT $GNUSTEP_SYSTEM_ROOT/Makefiles/GNUstep.sh #-------- 8< cut here 8< ----------- If you don't feel like logging out and logging back in, you can have the change take place immediately by typing: . ~/.bash_profile from a shell prompt. 2. Compiling the sample programs (1 minute + compile time) The first thing we should so is play around with some sample apps. By looking at the code, you can quickly learn how to program with GNUstep. cd to the gnustep source directory. Now cd to the xraw/Testing directory and type make If you get an error that a makefile wasn't found, go back to previous section on setting up your environment see what you did wrong. :) In recent snapshots, the Testing directory did not compile cleanly. If this happens to you, your best bet is to update via CVS or wait for the next snapshot. 3. Playing with GNUstep programs Assuming your GNUstep environment is correct and you were able to build the Test programs correctly, you are ready to play with GNUstep. First, check to see what applications were built (remember we are in gnustep/xraw/Testing). [steve@chaos Testing]$ ls -d *.app Edit.app menu.app nsscroller.app InterfaceModeller.app nsbox.app scrollview.app Workspace.app nsbrowser.app scrollview2.app alertpanel.app nsbrowsercell.app slider.app buttons.app nscursor.app windows.app matrix.app nsimage.app To run a GNUstep application, use the 'openapp' command, for example: openapp slider.app (Note: some Testing applications are still a little buggy as of this writing and tend to crash and misbehave.) Congratulations, you're done! The .m files in the Testing directory are an excellent introduction to the objective-c code used in GNUstep development. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Appendix I: Keeping up to date. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Since point releases are released rather infrequently, you have two choices if you want to keep up to date with GNUstep development. You can download the weekly snapshots as we have done above, or you can update your local source tree at any time via CVS. I have found that the quickest way to update via cvs is to issue a cvs -z3 update -Pd from the toplevel gnustep source directory. If you are prompted for a login, use 'anoncvs' as a password. There is a more detailed CVS tutorial in the GNUstep HOWTO (ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/gnustep/GNUstep-HOWTO) by Michael Hanni. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Appendix 2: Setting the Local time (thanks to Robert J. Slover!) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (If you've gotten this far, you are probably looking for a challenge. This section is still under development, so any feedback is welcome. ) When the time zone is not set in GNUstep, you will get the following error: Feb 19 00:57:08 nscursor[27916] No local time zone specified. Feb 19 00:57:08 nscursor[27916] Using time zone with absolute offset 0. First, we need to determine the time zone that we have set for the system: ls -al /etc/localtime Since I am in Missouri, I have set: lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 32 Jun 27 1998 /etc/localtime -> ../usr/share/zoneinfo/US/Central The next step (heh) is to use the defaults program to set the NSTimeZone. To see what Time Zones are available: cd $GNUSTEP_SYSTEM_ROOT/Libraries/Resources/gnustep/NSTimeZones/zones and poke around. Once you have a Time Zone picked, run the command ("Central" is my time zone): defaults write NSGlobalDomain "Local Time Zone" "Central" If upon running the defaults program you get an error like: libgnustep-base.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory It means you haven't set up your environment correctly. You should run your .bash_profile script again. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Appendix 3: Credits ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This HOWTO is my first contribution to the OpenSource community, and I hope it has helped you out. I'd like to thank the following people for their help and comments: Michael Giddings Peter Rasmussen Steve Romero Robert J. Slover Andrew White Enjoy GNUstep! _steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- End of GNUstep-RedHat HOWTO -- -- Steven Borrelli steve@borrelli.org St. Louis, Missouri
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <ytuz2.58125$641.140109@news.san.rr.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2002990953170001@term6-12.vta.west.net> Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Message-ID: <hdLz2.58793$641.144071@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:37:06 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:38:53 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ... >In article <ytuz2.58125$641.140109@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans." ><eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: > >>Taligent-related patents are owned by Object Technology Licensing located at >>1 Infinity Loop in Cupertino. >>http://www.otlc.com/ > >Does anybody else find it odd that that is the address of Apple HQ? Who is >OTL, really? Just a few key individuals at Apple who own the rights to >everything Taligent-related? Or what? I don't know. As Taligent was in Cupertino I've just assumed that when Taligent was taken by IBM, code included, IBM and Apple agreed to create a licensing company so neither would lose their rights and both could benefit from licensing fees. I think this is just a way to preserve elements of the prior Taligent agreement. This is all just my own speculation, of course. --Ed.
From: "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy References: <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-pro xy.airnews.net> <B2F38D15-93AFD@204.31.112.134> <1dnis0t.11lx8mc10ahwl9N@pppsl1508.chicagonet.net> Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Message-ID: <fpLz2.58796$641.144140@news.san.rr.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:49:53 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:51:39 PDT Organization: TWC Road Runner, San Diego, CA Edwin E. Thorne wrote in message <1dnis0t.11lx8mc10ahwl9N@pppsl1508.chicagonet.net>... >Phil Brewster <pjbrew@nospam.com> wrote: > >[snip of an excellent history of OpenDoc, and many good insights, all >acknowledged] > >I'm a little puzzled by the fact that OpenDoc is on the OS/2 Warp >version 4 CD. It's an optional install, but it's there. I can't help >but to wonder why. I don't think OpenDoc is an option. OpenDoc multimedia parts *are* an optional install. IBM also changed the UI slightly. In the Templates folder, double-clicking a template created a new object rather than opening the settings/properties notebook as all prior WorkPlace Shell UI versions did. This brought it in line with the OpenDoc UI spec. I suppose it was included because when Warp 4 was developed and shipped it wasn't going to be killed. Apple killed OpenDoc before IBM did and IBM had no real choice but to kill OpenDoc support when Apple pulled out as Apple was the primary developer. Some of Taligent's technology made it into Warp 4 (and perhaps 3 as well). IBM had already begun to lay the ground work for incorporating CommonPoint. It made sense they would include OpenDoc in the system too. Finally, I believe they were migrating the WorkPlace Shell to be a full OpenDoc container which is why they added some of the features they did in v4. Document conversion via the pop-up menu, for example. On-line help about the property notebook option to change the selected object's class (IIRC they used converting a WordPerfect document from that class to a WordPro document as the example but it's been 3 years) is a hint at where they were headed. I don't have Warp 4 handy so I'm just going on what I recall. IBM already had thumbnail views (via the integrated light table folder class that first shipped in the 3's Bonus Pak) which was something Apple showed off publicly for the OpenDoc container (part of the original Allegro) Finder prototype. Forgive my rambling. --Ed.
From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <15546918968424@digifix.com> Date: 21 Feb 1999 04:44:23 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Message-ID: <7743919573220@digifix.com> Topics include: Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites NeXTanswers Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites ============================================ The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise. Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server http://www.stepwise.com Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community since March 1994. Some of the many resources on the site include: original YellowBox and Rhapsody articles, mailing list information, extensive listing of FTP and WWW sites related to Rhapsody, OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep related Frequently Asked Questions. NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org http://www.peak.org/next http://www.peak.org/openstep http://www.peak.org/rhapsody PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North America. Peanuts Archive http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/NEXTSTEP http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/OpenStep http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/Rhapsody http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/MacOSX http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/WebObjects http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/GeneralData The Peanuts-Archive is the premier site in Europe and mirrored in whole or parts all over the world. Apple Enterprise Software Group (formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.) http://enterprise.apple.com http://enterprise.apple.com/NeXTanswers Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software patches. Apple Computer's Mac OS X Server Site http://www.apple.com/macosx/ Apple Computer's Mac OS X Server Developer Site http://developer.apple.com/macosx/server/ Apple Computer's WebObjects Site http://www.apple.com/webobjects/ Mac OS X Server Developer Documentation http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosxserver/macosxserver.html WebObjects Documentation http://gemma.apple.com/techinfo/techdocs/enterprise/enterprise.html OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups ==================================================== COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific groups as well. COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. ** RELATED NEWSGROUPS ** COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. COMP.OBJECT Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites ================================= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.peanuts.org: (Peanuts) Located in Germany. Comprehensive archive site. Very well maintained. ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )
From: amaliy1@uic.edu (Anil T Maliyekke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: G4 .11 micron Date: 21 Feb 1999 05:12:29 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago Message-ID: <7ao4jt$135u$1@piglet.cc.uic.edu> David T. Wang wrote: : Hmm, I've never heard of this one, but given the rumors that had floated : around earlier, this rumor might actually have some basis. I recall : that IBM had disagreed with MOT with regards to Altivec, and they just : wanted to improve G3 a bit, and run it at a faster clock speed.... : This sounds like that part, and it even coincides with the schedule of : CMOS7S-SOI. However, now that IBM is committed to "G4", I wonder what : Apple will do with this part? I don't know if IBM has committed to the G4. From what I've been reading this week it isn't even clear if IBM knows whether it will release faster shrinks for PPC 750 using an SOI process since it isn't sure what Apple plans on doing this fall and probably Apple isn't either. It does seem likely that IBM will add AltiVec support to its processors, but that may not include processors designed at Sommerset, unless Apple or someone else is adamant that there be a second source for the G4. What might be nice: a multithreaded AltiVec CPU, though not necessarily simultaneously multithreaded. It could result in gains for tasks that could be performed in separate threads/processes like speech recognition. : -- : davewang@cslab.kecl.ntt.co.jp.I.like.green.eggs.and.ham,not.spam : All statements are personal opinions : Not speaking for NTT or University of Maryland : Kyoto, Japan.
From: Thomas Boroske <T.Boroske@tu-bs.de> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: MacOS X as a Linux Shell? Date: 19 Feb 1999 02:11:29 +0100 Organization: Home Distribution: world Message-ID: <T.Boroskem3r9rnjiym.fsf@ws.rz.tu-bs.de> References: <ckoller-2301990901280001@56.los-angeles-06.ca.dial-access.att.net> <F38DC3C7D3844446.04585ED4546C7AA7.1ABEC6BB62271EAF@library-proxy.airnews.net> <78dgek$eut$1@cronkite.cs.umd.edu> <D36998645246A5D5.04DC703FDD34FE9E.E0296B37C276B7E1@library-proxy.airnews.net> <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de> <79ppeu$f9c$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> writes: > In article <1dmv184.1or9kbx11de7p4N@p3e9d1a88.dip.t-online.de>, > Fam.Traeger@t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lars_Tr=E4ger?=) wrote: > > Nelson Gerhardt <1050pi@netscape.net> wrote: > [ ... ] > >>> I oughta mention here that the StrongARM has no floating point processor, > >>> no superscalar mechanism, and relatively unsophisticated pipelining. > > Sure...but it makes up for this by having a really, really fast clock rate. The fastest SA runs at 233 MHz currently. OTOH, most (all) ARM processors are not optimized for speed, but for a good speed/power ratio. > The ARM architecture is classic RISC; with only three or so phases per > instruction (rather than five to seven, or more of CISC), Errm - the SA has 5 pipeline stages. And the ARM architecture can hardly be called "classic RISC" - relatively complicated adressing modes and a relatively low number of regs. YMMV, of course. > you don't need to do > deep pipelining, fancy hazard detection, stalling, and result forwarding, and > all of the rest of the complicated things someone like Intel has had to do. You have to do just the same. Where did you get that idea from ? Of course, hazard detection is not needed if you donīt have multiple execution units (if memory serves me correctly). Thereīs no doubt an architecture like the ARM is easier to implement efficiently than the x86 architecture, of course. > > Doesn't Linux need a FPU for some bizare reason? > > No. The default kernels everyone ships for the Intel world are compiled with > the assumption that a FPU is available, but it's entirely possible to build > Linux with the kernel trapping FPU calls to a software emulator. > > A port to the ARM would obviously be built with the kernel not expecting a > FPU.... It has been built (ARMLinux, netbsd-arm32 also available). I think the "Linux needs FPU" usually refers to font scaling under X or something. Kind regards, -- Thomas Boroske
From: "Andrew Spencer" <andrew@e-net.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Replace my Next Station ???????? The solution Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:43:10 -0600 Organization: Inc.Net http://www.inc.net Message-ID: <7akbeu$n40$1@news.inc.net> References: <79d03c$pb9$1@news.eunet.ch> <MPG.1124ea3e38f24178989695@news.onramp.net> <trev-0502991354010001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB599F.DA108A7B@ericsson.com> <trev-0502991710110001@nas-p9.usc.net> <36BB8B18.86CAC05D@ericsson.com> <36BB8B7F.571D7F6B@ericsson.com> Unfortunately, He said he will be running OS X on this machine. This fully supports SMP. So do many applications in the current Mac OS. Just because the OS doesn't support SMP doesn't mean that the apps won't. I know for a fact that Photoshop will support as many processors as you can throw at it. I have heard of 8 processor systems that are Mac OS based for video editing. The Pentium II won't even support more than 2 processors. Also, this configuration assumes that everyone likes dealing with shit PC hardware. If you are a real graphics designer or desktop publisher, the last thing you want to worry about is IRQ's and RAID setup. I'm a hardware hacker and I love tinkering with my PC, but I do my most productive with with my Mac. It doesn't crash, it does things fast, it boots much faster, and I never, ever have to worry about whether my new serial device is going to conflict with my mouse/modem/other serial device. The fact is years of people trying to find a "bargain" in hardware has driven price and reliability down. Stick with the Mac setup... your blood pressure will thank you. - Andy Michael Peck wrote in message <36BB8B7F.571D7F6B@ericsson.com>... >Michael Peck wrote: > >> Penguin Computing - Dual Capable Xeon System >> >> Supermicro S2DGU Motherboard >> 700S Full-Tower w/One 300W Power Supply >> One 450 MHz Xeon Processor with 512 KB Cache > >AND (I neglected to mention) I have dropped one of the processors to >make the comparison more analogous due to MacOS's lack of SMP >capabilities. > >MJP
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 01:33:07 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7al3ci$nes$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akl3v$35c$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991352390001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> In article <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991352390001@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote: > In article <7akl3v$35c$1@hole.sdsu.edu>, etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu > (tomlinson) wrote: >> In the end, Apple took a good idea, made a botch of trying to >> introduce it to the world, and failed. > > I'll betcha that, had MS deployed OpenDoc in the exact same way, we'd be > exchanging these UseNet posts in an OpenDoc part today. Betcha it wouldn't. Not in an environment when anyone with a decent connection and a news server can set up binary post filters or spam-cancel 'bots. :-) -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: "Jonathan Haddad" <leperkuhn@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:51:16 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews .net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Haddad Enterprises Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7al7td$cto$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> In article <EB4FEF7202A17085.E5B4106BA9838A19.62155096357D8037@library-proxy.airnews.ne t> , nhughes@sunflower.com (nate) wrote: > On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:24 +0000, justin armstrong <jman@no.spam> > wrote: > > It was typical apple-junk nobody else wanted. > And then you are surprised when no one takes you seriously. Why bother posting in a group for a platform you don't even care about?? It makes no sense to me. Maybe I just don't see the big picture. Let me lay down the facts. 1. You prefer windows NT 2. You hate the mac 3. You post in CSMA 4. You make comments that make no sense. So why post? do you have that much free time? Maybe I'll go post in alt.ham-radio.digital-voice. (but I really won't) -- Jon Haddad leperkuhn@earthlink.net http://members.tripod.com/~leperkuhn
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 21 Feb 99 06:05:17 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2F5529F-11988E@206.165.43.110> References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991710460001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> said: >OLE is such a tiny, tiny aspect of what OD could have done. Little more >than the Publish/Subscribe feature in System 7, I'm surprised the DOJ >hasn't sought out any evidence of MS trying to kill OD (although it's >certainly possible at this point that they could have relied on Apple's and >IBM's own incompetence to destroy it). There is such evidence. One of Gate's memos about negotiations with Netscape over client-side software explicitly says that OpenDoc is not wanted. In fact, OpenDoc is the ONLY thing that he mentions. Also, Spindler and several other Apple execs sent a federal judge a notarized letter with supporting documents taht claimed that Gates explicitly threatened Apple over OpenDoc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 21 Feb 99 06:05:58 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2F552C8-11A232@206.165.43.110> References: <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991710460001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Craig Koller <ckoller@worldnet.att.net> said: > >The model for OD still makes sense. Perhaps there really is an argument for >making it open source for Linux and allowing its use in OS X. I believe that the source for OD on AIX and OS/2 is available on the IBM website. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 21 Feb 99 06:07:06 -0700 Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc. Message-ID: <B2F5530C-11B243@206.165.43.110> References: <7al3ci$nes$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said: >> I'll betcha that, had MS deployed OpenDoc in the exact same way, we'd be >> exchanging these UseNet posts in an OpenDoc part today. > >Betcha it wouldn't. Not in an environment when anyone with a decent >connection and a news server can set up binary post filters or spam-cancel >'bots. :-) Er, what do you mean by that? I am STILL using an OpenDoc suite of parts ot exchange Usenet posts... -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Want Apple to license Cyberdog for third-party development? Go to: <http://www.pcsincnet.com/petition.html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tharsos@bigfoot.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: 21 Feb 1999 14:11:46 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Message-ID: <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> Why does every call in the YellowBox API still have that annoying "NS"-prefix? Looks like a relic of the NeXTStep era to me. Apple should replace this with something more up to date. How about using "YB" instead: YBEvent YBView YBDocument ... Sounds about right.
Message-ID: <36D0262F.5113B0AF@home.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari=AE?= <arikounavis@home.com> Organization: I don't even have a watch. MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? References: <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:28:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:28:50 PDT If it makes you feel better, pretend "NS" stands for "No Sales." __ ari tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > Why does every call in the YellowBox API still have that annoying > "NS"-prefix? Looks like a relic of the NeXTStep era to me. Apple > should replace this with something more up to date. > How about using "YB" instead: > YBEvent > YBView > YBDocument > ... > > Sounds about right.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: 21 Feb 1999 15:41:20 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7apr1g$f5j$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 1999 20:41:32 GMT In article <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > Why does every call in the YellowBox API still have that annoying > "NS"-prefix? Looks like a relic of the NeXTStep era to me. Apple > should replace this with something more up to date. No, they shouldn't. That would irritatingly break existing code (and don't forget that class names can be embedded in persistent data and not just source code too), and would accomplish _nothing_ useful. > How about using "YB" instead: Ugh. Harder to type than "NS".
From: "Charles Swiger" <chuck@codefab.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:00:25 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7aps55$g7p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7al3ci$nes$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2F5530C-11B243@206.165.43.110> In article <B2F5530C-11B243@206.165.43.110>, "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: > Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said: >>> I'll betcha that, had MS deployed OpenDoc in the exact same way, we'd be >>> exchanging these UseNet posts in an OpenDoc part today. >> >> Betcha it wouldn't. Not in an environment when anyone with a decent >> connection and a news server can set up binary post filters or spam-cancel >> 'bots. :-) > > Er, what do you mean by that? > > I am STILL using an OpenDoc suite of parts ot exchange Usenet posts... And that's just fine, so long as your suite of parts produces sane, human- readable ASCII posts to non-binary newsgroups. Well, maybe I'm doing M$ a disservice by expecting that a OpenDoc system for Usenet content from M$ would happily create multipart MIME documents by default and probably throw in a uuencoded or base-64 encoded ActiveX control or two. We've already got news servers which are filtering HTML postings (largely thanks to Netscape and that vcard crap) from their spool, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that people are feeding the result of that HTML filter to a cancelbot instead for selected groups.... -Chuck -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:55:45 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Message-ID: <7apobu$d9b$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> In article <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > Why does every call in the YellowBox API still have that annoying > "NS"-prefix? Looks like a relic of the NeXTStep era to me. Apple > should replace this with something more up to date. > How about using "YB" instead: > YBEvent > YBView > YBDocument Who cares? The prefix is probably there to prevent collisions with other identifiers and prevent confusion. -- Brian Quinlan quinlan@intergate.bc.ca -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu (tomlinson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 21 Feb 1999 22:19:33 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Message-ID: <7aq0pl$m77$1@hole.sdsu.edu> References: <7al3ci$nes$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2F5530C-11B243@206.165.43.110> Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote: : I am STILL using an OpenDoc suite of parts ot exchange Usenet posts... Let's be honest, Lawson...what, about Cyberdog, is unique, thanks to OpenDoc? What does OpenDoc do for Cyberdog? As remarkably persistent as Cyberdog has proved, it's also just about the worst possible exponent of the putative "document centric" paradigm. It takes this wonderful tool and uses it to create... just another application suite. -tomlinson -- Ernest Tomlinson ---------------- "I don't suppose they taught you German at that awful school of yours?" "What, instead of Latin? Heaven forbid, old boy." (Robert Shaw and Edward Fox, FORCE TEN FROM NAVARONE)
From: schuerig@acm.org (Michael Schuerig) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:29:32 +0100 Organization: Completely Disorganized Message-ID: <1dnlodd.156a3zvduytaN@ppp024.tro.net> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <7akl3v$35c$1@hole.sdsu.edu> <ckoller-ya02408000R1902991352390001@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <7al3ci$nes$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <B2F5530C-11B243@206.165.43.110> <7aq0pl$m77$1@hole.sdsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 1999 02:29:33 GMT Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4 tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote: > Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote: > > : I am STILL using an OpenDoc suite of parts ot exchange Usenet posts... > > Let's be honest, Lawson...what, about Cyberdog, is unique, thanks to > OpenDoc? What does OpenDoc do for Cyberdog? > > As remarkably persistent as Cyberdog has proved, it's also just about > the worst possible exponent of the putative "document centric" > paradigm. It takes this wonderful tool and uses it to create... > just another application suite. Unfortunately, yes. Mail and News don't belong in one single place or two. That's just a very technically-minded organization. I want my Mac-related news and mail messages in the same place where I keep other Mac stuff. I want to deal with my messages to a single entity in a consistent way, without taking into account if it was by snail mail (wp document), email, or fax. And, of course, I also want to access stuff that's come in recently, ignoring other categorizations. There's no technical problem. It just has to be done. Michael -- Michael Schuerig mailto:schuerig@acm.org http://www.schuerig.de/michael/
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 21 Feb 99 22:50:49 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <B2F63E4E-21C9CC@208.200.110.209> References: <7aps55$g7p$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit nntp://news.qx.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 4:00 PM, Charles Swiger <mailto:chuck@codefab.com> wrote: >In article <B2F5530C-11B243@206.165.43.110>, > "Lawson English" <english@primenet.com> wrote: >> Charles Swiger <chuck@codefab.com> said: >>>> I'll betcha that, had MS deployed OpenDoc in the exact same way, we'd be >>>> exchanging these UseNet posts in an OpenDoc part today. >>> >>> Betcha it wouldn't. Not in an environment when anyone with a decent >>> connection and a news server can set up binary post filters or spam-cancel >>> 'bots. :-) >> >> Er, what do you mean by that? >> >> I am STILL using an OpenDoc suite of parts ot exchange Usenet posts... > >And that's just fine, so long as your suite of parts produces sane, human- >readable ASCII posts to non-binary newsgroups. > He's using Cyberdog. MIME is an option, not mandatory. Cyberdog allows you to choose via a drop down menu in the message window instead of buried in the preferences like other apps. Very convenient for that one MIME message out of the last 200 you wrote. Also prevents newbies from spewing MIME or HTML crap all over the net without even knowing what they do. There's certainly nothing inherent in OpenDoc that mandates incompatibility- make it a pain perhaps, but not insurmountable. scott ---------------------------------------------------------------- Cyberdog -- yet another cancelled technology from Apple Computer ----------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <19990222003452.02266.00001604@ng-fq1.aol.com> Control: cancel <19990222003452.02266.00001604@ng-fq1.aol.com> Date: 22 Feb 1999 05:34:54 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.19990222003452.02266.00001604@ng-fq1.aol.com> Sender: dane77777@aol.com (DANE77777) Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 21 Feb 99 23:06:05 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <B2F641E6-22A203@208.200.110.209> References: <7aq0pl$m77$1@hole.sdsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit nntp://news.qx.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 5:19 PM, tomlinson <mailto:etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote: > >Let's be honest, Lawson...what, about Cyberdog, is unique, thanks to >OpenDoc? What does OpenDoc do for Cyberdog? > >As remarkably persistent as Cyberdog has proved, it's also just about >the worst possible exponent of the putative "document centric" >paradigm. It takes this wonderful tool and uses it to create... >just another application suite. > I'm not Lawson, obviously, but I do use Cyberdog for over 90% of my 'net needs. OpenDoc allows easily added functionality, which tends to work similar to Services in OpenStep, but without the need to call a seperate full-fledged app. I have added support for NTP, a bookmarks menu, an alternate HTML viewer as well as the ability to launch one of the big 2 to view a specific page, and a few other tweaks. Drop an editor into a folder and the next time you launch Cyberdog, the new feature is there integrated as tightly as any original feature. Neato tricks are the ability to view specially created web pages with multiple embedded browser windows each displaying a different site, or creating a document with a container app (such as WAV) that can contain an embedded browser window alongside whatever other content you wish. Granted, Cyberdog is not a pure example of OpenDoc, though that was its intention, and Cyberdogs potential has been greatly stunted by the failure of OpenDoc, but it is a much different, and frequently much better,way of doing things. It really does require experience to understand. scott
From: "scott hand" <vidahand@qx.doh!.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Date: 22 Feb 99 00:28:59 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <B2F65551-273267@208.200.110.209> References: <1dnlodd.156a3zvduytaN@ppp024.tro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit nntp://news.qx.net/comp.sys.mac.advocacy On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 9:29 PM, Michael Schuerig <mailto:schuerig@acm.org> wrote: >tomlinson <etomlins@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote: > >> Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote: >> >> : I am STILL using an OpenDoc suite of parts ot exchange Usenet posts... >> >> Let's be honest, Lawson...what, about Cyberdog, is unique, thanks to >> OpenDoc? What does OpenDoc do for Cyberdog? >> >> As remarkably persistent as Cyberdog has proved, it's also just about >> the worst possible exponent of the putative "document centric" >> paradigm. It takes this wonderful tool and uses it to create... >> just another application suite. > >Unfortunately, yes. Mail and News don't belong in one single place or >two. That's just a very technically-minded organization. I want my >Mac-related news and mail messages in the same place where I keep other >Mac stuff. I want to deal with my messages to a single entity in a >consistent way, without taking into account if it was by snail mail (wp >document), email, or fax. And, of course, I also want to access stuff >that's come in recently, ignoring other categorizations. > >There's no technical problem. It just has to be done. > >Michael > Except for fax, I'm not sure how Cyberdog presents a problem there, or perhaps I should say, is deficient for your needs. Details? scott
From: Cosmo Roadkill <cosmo.roadkill%bofh.int@rauug.mil.wi.us> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cmsg cancel <7ar6ub$oeh$16874@news.quebectel.com> Control: cancel <7ar6ub$oeh$16874@news.quebectel.com> Date: 22 Feb 1999 09:20:12 GMT Organization: BOFH Space Command, Usenet Division Message-ID: <cancel.7ar6ub$oeh$16874@news.quebectel.com> Sender: Shawn Astels<sorel@globetrotter.qc.ca> Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20. The "Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines" FAQ is available at http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin/faqs/spam.html Please include the X-CosmoTraq header of this message in any correspondence specific to this spam. Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
From: tharsos@bigfoot.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: 22 Feb 1999 09:41:39 GMT Organization: private Message-ID: <7ar8oj$ha5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7apr1g$f5j$1@crib.corepower.com> In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: : In article <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: :> Why does every call in the YellowBox API still have that annoying :> "NS"-prefix? Looks like a relic of the NeXTStep era to me. Apple :> should replace this with something more up to date. : No, they shouldn't. That would irritatingly break existing code (and : don't forget that class names can be embedded in persistent data and : not just source code too), and would accomplish _nothing_ useful. Yeah, those millions and millions of lines of existing Mac OS X apps code, right? Anyway, couldn't they just release a set of alternative headers that map the new classnames to the old NSxxx names? YB is supposed to be Apples new, modern, state-of-the-art API. But if they can't even be bothered to update the classnames to reflect the fact that NeXTStep is dead an buried (thank GOD), why should I as a developer use it instead of Carbon? The message right now is: Steer clear of YellowBox, it's just a bunch of legacy code to appease the NeXTStep/OpenStep fanatics.
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: what went wrong with OpenDoc? Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Feb21221940@slave.doubleu.com> References: <36CDCBFB.99EA6172@no.spam> <ytuz2.58125$641.140109@news.san.rr.com> <SPAMLESSforrest-2002990953170001@term6-12.vta.west.net> <hdLz2.58793$641.144071@news.san.rr.com> In-reply-to: "Ed Deans."'s message of Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:37:06 -0800 Date: 21 Feb 99 22:19:40 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:59:57 PDT In article <hdLz2.58793$641.144071@news.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> writes: Forrest Cameranesi wrote in message ... >In article <ytuz2.58125$641.140109@news.san.rr.com>, > "Ed Deans." <eadeans@san.rr.com> wrote: >>Taligent-related patents are owned by Object Technology Licensing >>located at 1 Infinity Loop in Cupertino. http://www.otlc.com/ > >Does anybody else find it odd that that is the address of Apple >HQ? Who is OTL, really? Just a few key individuals at Apple who >own the rights to everything Taligent-related? Or what? I don't know. As Taligent was in Cupertino Note that Taligent was _literally_ across De Anza from Apple. I believe the building is now an IBM building, the sign has some IBM URL with "java" in it. [Actually, also across De Anza is a Sun building, with a huge banner referencing "java" and "jobs". I told my wife that as a prank they should get a bunch of engineers and walk over and apply en masse... the only danger is that they might be taken seriously :-).] Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scott@nospam.doubleu.com (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Where NeXT? Date: 21 Feb 99 22:25:02 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Message-ID: <SCOTT.99Feb21222502@slave.doubleu.com> References: <SPAMNIXSPAMNIXFILTER-1202990038500001@tele-anx0114.colorado.eduNIXSPAMNIXSPAM> <SPAMNIX36C9C00E.4A7257FB@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7acpnc$acu$1@crib.corepower.com> <SPAMNIX36CC97F0.E48E7AA9@ibm.netNIXSPAM> <7akoc1$o2$1@crib.corepower.com> <36CEA626.A5B17883@ibm.net> <7an8d9$fd6$1@news.xmission.com> In-reply-to: don@misckit.com's message of 20 Feb 1999 21:11:05 GMT In article <7an8d9$fd6$1@news.xmission.com>, don@misckit.com (Don Yacktman) writes: Rainer Frohnhoefer <rfrohn@ibm.net> wrote: > Yep. Say, there is a command line. I want to create two files > "One" and "ONE". If it isn't possible then posix is a joke (Ok, > won't happen). If it is, will the two files show up in the GUI > as "ONE" and "ONE" (bad), "One" and "ONE", or simply as "ONE" > with "One" not showing up at all. If I decide to change "One"'s > name to "ONe" in the GUI, can I do this? The way it was explained to me, this is not the way things will work at all. When you create a file, the case you specified will be stored and used. I assume that the GUI will display it as stored. When you open/read the file, the file that is opened is according to this ruleset: 1. If there's only one file with the name, then case doesn't matter. 2. If there's more that one file with the same name, differing only by case, then the match must be exact (ie, it becomes case sensitive). In other words, everything that works in a case sentitive environment still works the same, with just the addition of one minor "convenience" feature. From what I recall, you also have to account for UFS versus HFS+. It sounded to me like if you wrote "One" then "ONE" on UFS, you'd end up with both, but on HFS+ you'd end up with "ONE" overwriting/displacing "One". Which made perfect sense to me. Later, -- scott hess <scott@doubleu.com> (408) 739-8858 http://www.doubleu.com/ <Favorite unused computer book title: The Compleat Demystified Idiots Guide to the Zen of Dummies in a Nutshell in Seven Days, Unleashed>
From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals (was: Re: Dennis Richie on micro-kernals) Date: 22 Feb 1999 10:14:45 GMT Organization: Peanuts NEXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody/MacOS-X Service Site Distribution: world Message-ID: <7araml$548$1@peanuts2.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an3i6$5gj$1@crib.corepower.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) wrote: > >"The funny thing is if you actually read those papers, you find that, >while the researchers were applying thier optimizational tricks on a >microkernel, in fact those same tricks could be applied to traditional >kernels to accelerate their execution." > > -- Linus Torvalds on Microkernels (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and > Associates) > As Dennis Richie said: it's not a practical mattar nowadays. And everybody knows that Linus always didn't like the microkernels. However, in my opinion, it's not how the kernel is really designed. It's not how the true "micro"kernel is defined. It's about the ideas. What always made up micro-kernels were their - easy porting (not too important though) - easy extensibility (important) - fast messaging (important for distributed computing) - the ability to run different personalties. One might realize that the second point hast jus made it's way into Linux (e.g. drivers are now finally dynamically loading) and the last two points are still missing from Linux. There are differnt points on how to look at such an issue: a micro kernel is designed from scratch to feature these features and macrokernels would need much additional work to get it working. However I can be done in both worlds. As you can solve any problem in any programming language you can also supply any feature to any OS, however the working time needed to do so is very different :) Many greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.peanuts.org/ Peanuts-Archive Admin scholz@peanuts.org
From: suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: 22 Feb 1999 10:31:25 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Distribution: world Message-ID: <7arblt$9oj@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> References: <7ar8oj$ha5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> tharsos@bigfoot.com writes > In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: > : In article <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > > :> Why does every call in the YellowBox API still have that annoying > :> "NS"-prefix? Looks like a relic of the NeXTStep era to me. Apple > :> should replace this with something more up to date. > > : No, they shouldn't. That would irritatingly break existing code (and > : don't forget that class names can be embedded in persistent data and > : not just source code too), and would accomplish _nothing_ useful. > Don't know if we have to take your (tharsos@bigfoot.com) comment as ironic say-the-opposite-to-what-I-think approach, but I see no smiley here, so you probably mean what you say. Smells like a troll, anyway. > Yeah, those millions and millions of lines of existing Mac OS X > apps code, right? Exactly. > Anyway, couldn't they just release a set of alternative headers that map > the new classnames to the old NSxxx names? No. Not only are the NSxxx class names part of the OpenStep standard (as used by GNUStep, for example), the Class names are contained everywhere - in sources, libs, data, executables. Unfortunately, Obj-C does not support hierarchical class name spaces (unlike Java, for example), thus the prefix. > YB is supposed to be Apples new, modern, state-of-the-art API. IMHO, YB is OpenStep, which is new (for Apple), relatively modern, almost state-of-the-art, and very cool anyway. The right alternative for Java if you need fast software. > But if they can't even be bothered to update the classnames to > reflect the fact that NeXTStep is dead an buried (thank GOD), Well, are you such an Anti-NeXTStep/OpenStep fanatic, that you thank GOD for NeXTStep being buried? Guess you are afraid of it, as you don't have a clue about it (learned from your other statements). > why should I as a developer use it instead of Carbon? I think you better keep using Carbon. > The message right now is: Steer clear of YellowBox, it's just > a bunch of legacy code to appease the NeXTStep/OpenStep fanatics. It's NEXTSTEP that has the excellent reputation amongst programmers. So, while for marketing it's better to drop the NEXTSTEP name, since it means "does not sell", for internal class names visible to programmers the NSxxx prefix may be kept, it stands for "Nice Software". Yours, -- Ralf.Suckow ------------------------ @alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
From: tharsos@bigfoot.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals Date: 22 Feb 1999 11:26:09 GMT Organization: private Message-ID: <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an3i6$5gj$1@crib.corepower.com> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: : No comment on my own position, but I just ran across this on Slashdot: : "I'm not saying that they were knowingly dishonest, perhaps they were : simply stupid." : -- Linus Torvalds, commenting on those who really thought Microkernels : were wise. (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates) Funny how people tend to quote Linus Torvalds on technical issues in order to prove a point. I hear the guy barely made it through college. Linus might be a fine role model for the Linux clerasil crowd, but there are _much_ smarter people than him working in the CS field. Avie Tevanian, Senior Vice President of Software Engineering at Apple and inventor of the Mach microkernel, is one of them.
From: "tbc" <tbcass@dreamscape.com> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:35:53 -0500 Organization: Posted via RemarQ, http://www.remarQ.com - Discussions start here! Message-ID: <7arffo$bs5$1@remarQ.com> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an3i6$5gj$1@crib.corepower.com> <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote in message <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>... >In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: >: No comment on my own position, but I just ran across this on Slashdot: > >: "I'm not saying that they were knowingly dishonest, perhaps they were >: simply stupid." > >: -- Linus Torvalds, commenting on those who really thought Microkernels >: were wise. (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates) > >Funny how people tend to quote Linus Torvalds on technical issues in order >to prove a point. I hear the guy barely made it through college. Linus >might be a fine role model for the Linux clerasil crowd, but there are >_much_ smarter people than him working in the CS field. Avie Tevanian, >Senior Vice President of Software Engineering at Apple and inventor of the >Mach microkernel, is one of them. > How can you make such a statement on someone you know nothing about except through hearsay? Tom
From: tharsos@bigfoot.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: 22 Feb 1999 12:15:49 GMT Organization: private Distribution: world Message-ID: <7arhpl$np5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <7ar8oj$ha5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7arblt$9oj@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Ralf Suckow <suckow@*remove_this_to_e-mail_me*bln.sel.alcatel.de> wrote: : Well, are you such an Anti-NeXTStep/OpenStep fanatic, No, I'm not. I actually worked with NeXTStep 3.2 for some time, and I still affectionately maintain an OpenStep partition on my HD, though I rarely boot into it nowadays. : It's NEXTSTEP that has the excellent reputation amongst : programmers. So, while for marketing it's better to drop the : NEXTSTEP name, since it means "does not sell", : for internal class names visible to programmers : the NSxxx prefix may be kept, it stands for "Nice Software". Hey, I can live with that :) Seriously though, what current NeXTStep/OS developers think about the API is almost irrelevant since Apple caters to the much larger population of current Mac developers. I maintain that the "NS"-prefix doesn't help in converting these people to the YellowBox, it just constantly reminds you of NeXTStep, the OS that wasn't. Anyway, if you happen to be right and it really turns out to be technically infeasible/prohibitive to change the class names this late in the game then let's drop the subject right here and now. I don't want to beat a dead horse.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: 22 Feb 1999 08:19:24 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7arlgs$jrn$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7apr1g$f5j$1@crib.corepower.com> <7ar8oj$ha5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 1999 13:19:32 GMT In article <7ar8oj$ha5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > In comp.sys.mac.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: > : In article <7ap472$h7g$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > :> Why does every call in the YellowBox API still have that annoying > :> "NS"-prefix? Looks like a relic of the NeXTStep era to me. Apple > :> should replace this with something more up to date. > : No, they shouldn't. That would irritatingly break existing code (and > : don't forget that class names can be embedded in persistent data and > : not just source code too), and would accomplish _nothing_ useful. > Yeah, those millions and millions of lines of existing Mac OS X > apps code, right? This is the kind of idiotic decision that would further alienate existing OpenStep developers. > Anyway, couldn't they just release a set of alternative headers that map > the new classnames to the old NSxxx names? What, macros? I wouldn't. String subtituting all over the place can be dangerous. > YB is supposed to be Apples new, modern, state-of-the-art API. But if > they can't even be bothered to update the classnames to reflect the fact that > NeXTStep is dead an buried (thank GOD), Oh, puh-lease. It's a moronic idea. There's no point to it. It doesn't matter WHAT they prefix the classes with. No matter how easy you think it would be to change, it still takes a nonzero amount of time (and don't forget all the regression testing, documentation changes, etc. etc.), and it gains NOTHING. > why should I as a developer use it > instead of Carbon? The message right now is: Steer clear of YellowBox, > it's just a bunch of legacy code to appease the NeXTStep/OpenStep > fanatics. <snicker> If you're steered away from YB because of the *class prefixes*, then good riddance.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: YellowBox nomenclatura? Date: 22 Feb 1999 08:21:34 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7arlku$jsk$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <7ar8oj$ha5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7arblt$9oj@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> <7arhpl$np5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 1999 13:21:42 GMT In article <7arhpl$np5$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > I maintain that the "NS"-prefix doesn't help in > converting these people to the YellowBox, it just constantly reminds you > of NeXTStep, the OS that wasn't. I defy you to produce a single developer whose decision to use Yellow Box over Carbon or vice versa was based even in part on the class prefixes. Developers aren't that stupid. They want what WORKS, they don't care what it looks like.
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals Date: 22 Feb 1999 08:24:22 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7arlq6$jtu$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an3i6$5gj$1@crib.corepower.com> <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 1999 13:24:31 GMT In article <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: > : No comment on my own position, but I just ran across this on Slashdot: > > : "I'm not saying that they were knowingly dishonest, perhaps they were > : simply stupid." > > : -- Linus Torvalds, commenting on those who really thought Microkernels > : were wise. (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates) > Funny how people tend to quote Linus Torvalds on technical issues in order > to prove a point. Note that I explicitly said that I _wasn't_ doing that; his opinion on microkernels does not reflect my own. > I hear the guy barely made it through college. Who cares? > Linus > might be a fine role model for the Linux clerasil crowd, but there are > _much_ smarter people than him working in the CS field. Avie Tevanian, > Senior Vice President of Software Engineering at Apple and inventor of the > Mach microkernel, is one of them. <yawn> That doesn't mean that Avie's opinion is superior to Linus's. In fact, I'd have to say that makes Avie's opinion rather biased.
From: cbbrowne@news.brownes.org (Christopher B. Browne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an3i6$5gj$1@crib.corepower.com> <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7arlq6$jtu$1@crib.corepower.com> Message-ID: <slrn7d2otg.ep3.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:03:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:03:40 CDT On 22 Feb 1999 08:24:22 -0500, Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> posted: >In article <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, tharsos@bigfoot.com wrote: > >> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> wrote: > >> : No comment on my own position, but I just ran across this on Slashdot: >> >> : "I'm not saying that they were knowingly dishonest, perhaps they were >> : simply stupid." >> >> : -- Linus Torvalds, commenting on those who really thought Microkernels >> : were wise. (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates) > >> Funny how people tend to quote Linus Torvalds on technical issues in order >> to prove a point. > >Note that I explicitly said that I _wasn't_ doing that; his opinion on >microkernels does not reflect my own. Linus has some tendancy to say things that are nicely quotable. >> I hear the guy barely made it through college. > >Who cares? That's an interesting rumour; contrast it with the consideration that the oft-compared Bill Gates never actually made it through college, but is rather a drop-out. If Linus was a "near drop-out" as well as being otherwise ignorant/stupid, then his academic status might be of some importance. That is fairly evidently *not* the case. I'd hazard the guess that if he "barely" made it, the fact of being too busy building a widely-used operating system is far more likely to be the cause than anything else. >> Linus >> might be a fine role model for the Linux clerasil crowd, but there are >> _much_ smarter people than him working in the CS field. Avie Tevanian, >> Senior Vice President of Software Engineering at Apple and inventor of the >> Mach microkernel, is one of them. > ><yawn> That doesn't mean that Avie's opinion is superior to Linus's. >In fact, I'd have to say that makes Avie's opinion rather biased. From a completely practical perspective, it is easier to support the position that Linus is right in denigrating microkernels; they have *not* been terribly successful at "taking over" from monolithic kernels. And the academic research seems now to be coming around to measuring what things about microkernels hurt their usefulness. The University of Dresden group that built L3, L4, and Fiasco has done measurements of how microkernels have costs in terms of system performance, and suggest that approaches have been wrong. Making claims about the "wonders" of Mach is doomed to "appearance of silliness;" there was a lot of worshipfulness about how Mach was going to be the "last kernel," and about how portable it would be. Linux appears more portable than Mach; research efforts on Mach appear to have virtually disappeared. CMU dropped it, and allowed University of Utah to "have it." They're instead basing their OS work on FluxOS and OSKit. The activity taking place in the OS research community is more supportive of "Linus is right" than it is of "There are _much_ smarter people..." -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html> cbbrowne@hex.net - "What have you contributed to free software today?..."
From: nurban@crib.corepower.com (Nathan Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals Date: 22 Feb 1999 09:42:39 -0500 Organization: InSystems Technologies, Inc. Message-ID: <7arqcv$k7l$1@crib.corepower.com> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> <7arlq6$jtu$1@crib.corepower.com> <slrn7d2otg.ep3.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org> NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 1999 14:42:47 GMT In article <slrn7d2otg.ep3.cbbrowne@godel.brownes.org>, cbbrowne@hex.net wrote: > On 22 Feb 1999 08:24:22 -0500, Nathan Urban <nurban@crib.corepower.com> posted: > Linux appears more portable than Mach; Does it? Or have people just had more interest in porting it? I wouldn't know. > research efforts on Mach appear to > have virtually disappeared. CMU dropped it, and allowed University of Utah > to "have it." They're instead basing their OS work on FluxOS and OSKit. I've looked at Flux. It looks pretty cool, actually. They say that they believe that it's possible to get rid of microkernel performance problems without sacrificing the microkernel advantages. Should be interesting to see if that pans out.
From: torvalds@transmeta.com (Linus Torvalds) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Linus Torvalds on micro-kernals Date: 22 Feb 1999 18:39:21 GMT Organization: Transmeta Corporation, Santa Clara, CA Message-ID: <7as88p$rqs$1@palladium.transmeta.com> References: <7ampn1$o59$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <7an3i6$5gj$1@crib.corepower.com> <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at> In article <7aresh$mh4$1@news.tuwien.ac.at>, <tharsos@bigfoot.com> wrote: > >Funny how people tend to quote Linus Torvalds on technical issues in order >to prove a point. I hear the guy barely made it through college. Actually, I lied about even that. I was thrown out of fourth grade because I couldn't write my own name, and it's been all downhill from there. I had to lie about getting into college just so that I'd have better chances of making a career here at McDonalds - if you have a college degree (or you lied about having one), they don't make you scrape the burger pans. > Linus >might be a fine role model for the Linux clerasil crowd, but there are >_much_ smarter people than him working in the CS field. I resent your remark about the clerasil crowd. The people I know wouldn't get a date even if they didn't have bad skin, so they don't bother with that fancy expensive skin treatment stuff anyway. So we call ourself the "brown paper bag" crowd - those clerasil guys are snobs. > Avie Tevanian, >Senior Vice President of Software Engineering at Apple and inventor of the >Mach microkernel, is one of them. Ehh. Have you actually _met_ him? I have. He may be smart, and he freely admits that I'm not the only one slamming Mach as an OS. Think about it. Linus
These are the contents of the former NiCE NeXT User Group NeXTSTEP/OpenStep software archive, currently hosted by Marcel Waldvogel and Netfuture.ch.